The Art of Manliness - How to Fight Internet-Induced Numbness

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.220 Now the ironic thing about our digital devices is that they promise constant stimulation

00:00:14.240 and yet we finally end up making us feel numb.

00:00:17.240 Numb in terms of struggling to be present, numb and feeling overloaded with information

00:00:20.640 and choices, numb and feeling like we often view even our own experiences from a third

00:00:24.880 party perspective.

00:00:26.000 My guest today, Dr. Charles Chafin has written a book called Numb, How the Information Age

00:00:29.480 Dulls Our Senses and How We Can Get Them Back, which explores the various ways internet

00:00:33.160 induced numbness manifests itself from FOMO to choice overload on dating apps.

00:00:37.160 On the show today, we focus in particular on how the news media and social media can negatively

00:00:41.560 alter the way we experience life and what to do about it.

00:00:44.160 We first discuss how recovering our sense of engagement with life begins with thinking

00:00:47.220 about the fact that our attention is a finite resource and being intentional about how we

00:00:51.160 direct that resource.

00:00:52.160 We then discuss how to deal with what Charles calls the intention panhandlers who vie for 0.97

00:00:55.740 engagement online.

00:00:56.520 Charles also talks about the phenomenon of compassion fatigue, where there's so many

00:00:59.800 worthy causes you could take up that you end up doing nothing at all.

00:01:02.780 We then discuss how Instagram can change the way you experience life in an age where we

00:01:06.100 can all feel like content creators.

00:01:07.620 And we enter a conversation with how to wrest back control of your attention and use it towards

00:01:11.000 action rather than distraction.

00:01:12.980 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash numb.

00:01:16.020 All right, Charles Chafin, welcome to the show.

00:01:29.780 Thanks.

00:01:30.220 Thanks for having me.

00:01:31.060 So you got a new book out called Numb, how the information age dulls our senses and how

00:01:34.800 we can get them back.

00:01:35.940 So this book was inspired by this realization that you just felt like the internet was making

00:01:41.600 you feel numb.

00:01:42.840 When did that start happening and when did you start noticing it?

00:01:45.180 Yeah, you know, it started really thinking about, but my area of study is attention.

00:01:52.040 So obviously thinking about the attention economy that we live in and devices and whatnot that

00:01:57.380 are competing for our attention.

00:01:58.940 But, you know, one of the other elements that was key to this book is the notion of compassion.

00:02:05.540 And I started thinking about the regular access that we have to stories of human suffering and

00:02:13.500 tragedy and some of the sensationalism or vivid pictures and videos that we see all the time

00:02:19.180 on news and social media.

00:02:21.040 And I started to think about, well, given seeing all this all the time, how does that affect our

00:02:27.360 ability to be compassionate and responsive to the people that are around us, the people in our

00:02:32.300 lives?

00:02:33.000 And then gradually, as I started thinking about this from a more 360 degree view, I wanted to

00:02:39.140 look at not only attention, which is the basis for so much of Numb, but I also wanted to think

00:02:44.360 about all the byproducts of this information age, which is, you know, everything from FOMO,

00:02:48.640 confirmation bias and choice overload, loneliness, and even porn and dating sites, and really look

00:02:54.740 at how all of that, all of the things that are grabbing our attention and also creating

00:03:00.100 what I'll call processed experiences that impact our lives in some way, shape, or form.

00:03:06.200 I think all of us experience that numbness and feeling of just like, I just can't, I can't

00:03:11.280 process anything anymore.

00:03:13.020 I don't, like you read stuff and it's just, you feel dull when you read it.

00:03:17.100 You don't want to do anything.

00:03:17.920 How would you describe that numb feeling of information overload?

00:03:22.560 I think it's a, it is an element of separating what is real and what isn't on some level,

00:03:29.180 right?

00:03:29.380 It kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier is that this idea of processed experiences,

00:03:33.960 right?

00:03:34.100 That we read about something, whether it's, whether it's an event, whether it's political,

00:03:39.020 whether it's interpersonal or it's a video, or even if it's pornography, and it starts to,

00:03:44.400 we start to, we start to have a difficulty in separating what is real and what is a depiction

00:03:50.120 of reality and how that impacts how we interact with, with the, with the world around us.

00:03:56.460 So I see the element of numb and where the title came from is this idea of just, just constantly

00:04:03.780 having these waves of new information, new videos, new processed experiences, washing on the shores

00:04:11.100 of our attention, if you will, that creates this, this feeling where we start to not be able to

00:04:17.580 separate what's, what's real from what's not, what's relevant from what's irrelevant.

00:04:21.420 All right.

00:04:22.500 So as you said, in your book, numb, you walk readers through different ways, information

00:04:26.220 overload from the internet can make us feel discombobulated, sort of the detachment from

00:04:31.120 lived experience instead of processed experience.

00:04:34.300 But as you said, underlying all this feeling of numbness is a, what you would say is a mismanagement

00:04:41.080 of attention.

00:04:41.700 And this is your area of expertise.

00:04:43.540 So let's start off there.

00:04:44.380 Like what, what is attention?

00:04:46.000 I think it's, I think we might know what we think it is, but how, in your line of work,

00:04:51.120 how do you define attention?

00:04:52.980 Yeah, you know, we throw that word around a lot, but attention at the, at the very highest

00:04:56.880 level, it's the pathway to our consciousness.

00:04:59.180 You know, everything that we work, everything that we experience or sense is via our attention.

00:05:04.780 You know, you can think about it this way, you know, that if we want something to go well

00:05:08.520 or we want to experience it, we focus our attention on it.

00:05:11.060 Or maybe better, better stated, if we don't want something to go well, we don't focus our

00:05:16.720 attention on it.

00:05:18.120 And with that, it's kind of like this, the vividry of a kind of a, of a spotlight where

00:05:25.160 we're shining it on a specific experience, a specific item at the expense of other things.

00:05:31.580 And so given where we are in the information age, where we have so much of that coming at

00:05:36.740 us, that spotlight or where we manage that spotlight becomes incredibly important.

00:05:42.660 Added to that, we only have a fixed amount of it.

00:05:46.420 So if I'm focusing all of my attention or resources on something, I'm really focusing,

00:05:50.940 I don't have more to add.

00:05:52.660 I can't add it or, or separate it into some element of multitasking.

00:05:56.740 So given the fact that it's the attention to all, or it's the, it's the gateway to all

00:06:01.640 we experience and that it's fixed, it is in, in my world, it's the most important commodity

00:06:08.860 that we have.

00:06:10.600 I think that's an important point that attention is fixed because I think we, the way we often

00:06:14.220 treat it, at least I've, maybe I'm just speaking from my own experience, that attention

00:06:18.820 is infinite, right?

00:06:20.020 You have, you always have attention.

00:06:22.240 You might have not how, like money is finite because you can see it and hold it, but attention,

00:06:26.760 oh, well, I've got plenty of attention.

00:06:29.980 Yeah, right.

00:06:30.380 I mean, the greatest example of the idea of fixed attention is, is, is distracted driving,

00:06:35.640 right?

00:06:35.880 I mean, so you only have so much attention when you're driving.

00:06:38.520 If someone or something, even if it's a, if it's texting or whatever it is, it's taking

00:06:43.280 away from the amount of fixed attention you have.

00:06:45.900 You don't, when you're driving, you don't say, okay, I'm going to find more attention,

00:06:50.360 keep the same amount of attention on the road and my vehicle and add more to, to texting

00:06:55.420 or talking to someone.

00:06:56.620 And we all think, of course, that we can multitask when we effectively can't.

00:07:00.440 There's a, there's essentially becomes a, an element of a, of a cognitive bottleneck

00:07:04.800 that we have where the tasks don't happen simultaneously, but they, they happen one

00:07:10.460 after another.

00:07:11.220 And so we are constantly thinking that we multitask and that we multitask well, but in

00:07:15.760 reality, we don't.

00:07:16.840 We at best can switch our attention between two things at once.

00:07:20.760 And that attention switching, that can be tiring.

00:07:22.920 That's probably what's contributed to a lot of the numb feeling.

00:07:24.820 Just like, I just feel like a haze is in my brain.

00:07:27.680 Well, yeah, that attention switching, you're, you, that expends energy.

00:07:31.980 You can't do that all the time.

00:07:34.200 That's right.

00:07:34.740 You can't, you can't do it all the time.

00:07:36.200 And you're, again, you're constantly, you know, if you, if you're working on something

00:07:40.940 and you're, you're really focused on a report or whatever it might be, and you're distracted

00:07:45.400 in some way, it can take upwards of 15 or 20 minutes for you to get that same level of

00:07:51.400 attention back to where you were before you were distracted.

00:07:54.900 So you think about two or three distractions in a given day, and that really, really adds

00:08:00.300 up.

00:08:01.140 So it does come at an incredible cost, whether it's devices or other humans or whatever it

00:08:06.280 might be that take away from, from this valuable cognitive resource.

00:08:10.660 So if you look back at human history, people have been complaining about their attention being

00:08:16.000 mismanaged or they just, they can't focus.

00:08:18.100 You can see monks doing this.

00:08:19.540 You think monks wouldn't have, wouldn't have a problem with staying focused because they're

00:08:23.360 cloistered in some cell, but, so this is a universal human problem, but you make the

00:08:27.260 case that our digital technology just exacerbates this problem.

00:08:30.600 I mean, how does digital technology disrupt our attention?

00:08:33.980 Well, I mean, if you think about it in terms of, we have devices and platforms that are designed

00:08:39.160 to grab and keep our attention.

00:08:40.900 So, you know, at a 30,000 foot level, living in an attention economy where in essence, getting

00:08:48.560 your attention is actually more important than getting your wallet because I can't get your

00:08:52.540 wallet or if I'm trying to get your, your work or your affection from you or whatever

00:08:57.560 it might be, I can't get that until I get your attention first.

00:09:01.180 So these devices and platforms are developed really, really well to disrupt our attention.

00:09:08.080 And it happens through a couple of different ways, right?

00:09:09.920 So push notifications is always the most, the most famous example where we, we, we get some

00:09:15.240 sort of sound or we get some sort of site trying to take our attention to, to a platform,

00:09:21.040 one platform or another, but the, one of the bigger elements though, that comes in many

00:09:26.020 of these platforms is, is something called operant conditioning.

00:09:29.060 And that is basically where we have a reward system that can keep an individual engaged in

00:09:34.660 something.

00:09:35.040 So for example, on social media, where there's a lot of attention panhandling going on, whether

00:09:39.760 it's between the platform or individuals.

00:09:41.440 But essentially if we, we give a reward structure where what's called a variable reward structure,

00:09:47.820 meaning if I want you to do something one time, I will give you a reward after you do

00:09:53.340 it once.

00:09:54.580 If I want you to do it continuously, I'm going to do this variable reward strategy, meaning

00:10:00.060 you could do it three times and get the reward.

00:10:02.880 You could do it 10 times and get the reward.

00:10:05.020 You could do it 30 times to get the reward, but you don't know when it's coming.

00:10:09.000 And so you constantly are repeating that action or that behavior.

00:10:12.660 You know, and it's, it's most famously, you know, it goes way back into BF Skinner, who

00:10:17.740 was a famous psychologist from the middle part of the 1900s.

00:10:21.280 You know, he did this with pigeons and with all kinds of animals.

00:10:24.380 And in fact, you could go onto YouTube and watch him.

00:10:27.340 He trained pigeons to, to peck at enemy ships to, to guide missiles.

00:10:32.380 So they hooked up electrodes to the beaks and, and he was, he got Navy funding to do it.

00:10:37.820 It was right before whatever you call it, missile guided systems.

00:10:40.660 But he gave those pigeons and, you know, there were rats and other animals, these, these

00:10:45.620 variable reward structures to have them continuously repeat this behavior so that, you know, not

00:10:52.080 knowing when the reward was going to come.

00:10:54.060 And that's what we see on social media.

00:10:56.780 We also see it in things like slot machines and whatnot, but we don't know when that like

00:11:01.100 or that attention panhandling, going back to that, that reward, we don't know when it's

00:11:05.160 going to come.

00:11:05.720 So we're constantly revisiting those sites.

00:11:08.520 We're constantly posting and reposting to get that reward.

00:11:12.520 No.

00:11:12.640 And speaking of that very, you know, companies using that variable reward to their advantage.

00:11:17.340 Like I know Instagram does this, like they will, when you check to see how many likes

00:11:21.520 you have, sometimes they'll wait until you have a bunch of likes, you know, built up and

00:11:27.160 then they'll show you, Oh, a hundred likes.

00:11:28.900 This is great.

00:11:29.600 And then, so you want to check, but then the next time it's only 20.

00:11:31.760 Oh, okay.

00:11:32.260 And then they, they build it up.

00:11:33.500 No, it's a hundred.

00:11:34.140 You know, it's even to the point where the notifications are in red, right?

00:11:38.300 And I mentioned slot machines.

00:11:39.840 It's the same thing.

00:11:40.420 So if you go into a casino and you play even a penny slot, you, you may win a nominal amount

00:11:48.720 of money at one point, but it's celebrated as a huge victory, right?

00:11:52.900 So that it's, it's going to have you continuously playing and, you know, in a timeless place

00:11:57.320 with no clocks.

00:11:58.460 But again, you can find ways to hold, hold back those rewards to get you to continuously

00:12:03.480 repeat that behavior again and again and again.

00:12:06.400 And when it comes to, you know, things like social media, this kind of goes back to where

00:12:10.860 we started here with attention that comes at an enormous cost.

00:12:14.720 You know, when we see people who are on these platforms for two, three, four hours a day

00:12:20.780 and what I tried to do with NUM, it wasn't to say to people, you know, what you're doing

00:12:28.700 is wrong and this is all bad.

00:12:31.560 You should, you know, go on a dopamine fast and forget it.

00:12:34.520 But what I wanted to do is, is lead the reader through a reflective process and ask, is this

00:12:41.260 working for me?

00:12:42.020 At the end of the day, at the end of the year, at the end of my life, the two, three,

00:12:47.160 and four hours a day that I'm spending in this artificial reward platform and, you know,

00:12:53.480 getting into it.

00:12:54.040 And it's the same thing, by the way, when we're talking about, you know, breaking news

00:12:58.220 and, and, and all of the, many of the elements of outrage.

00:13:01.540 But at the end of the day, was this worth it for me?

00:13:05.100 Did, was this a good investment of my time?

00:13:07.060 Did it lead me to more productivity or more authenticity or better relationships?

00:13:12.760 And so I hope that, that having a better understanding of what these platforms are designed to do,

00:13:18.820 folks can make that decision on their own.

00:13:20.620 Well, speaking of breaking news, one of the chapters in the book, you devote to how the media uses our

00:13:29.140 understanding of what grabs our attention to their benefit and the way the media companies make their

00:13:35.300 money is through ad dollars.

00:13:36.680 A lot of them are moving to subscription, but, you know, still ad dollars is a big part of that.

00:13:40.460 Sure.

00:13:40.560 But to get those ad dollars, they, like you said, they need our attention first.

00:13:44.420 So knowing that, how do media companies use what they know about what grabs our attention to get

00:13:51.260 our attention?

00:13:52.560 Well, I'll tell you what doesn't work.

00:13:54.340 What doesn't work is if you're watching cable news and someone says, well, you know, coming up,

00:14:00.160 I just want to let you all know everything is fine here.

00:14:03.900 Right?

00:14:04.300 So the best way to do it is to, is to showcase some element of threat or outrage, which activates

00:14:10.720 our amygdala, that part of our brain that helps keep us safe and detecting from threats and makes

00:14:18.120 us more engaged.

00:14:19.600 Right?

00:14:19.940 And so, you know, any type, any element of sensationalism or opinion is going to, is going to drive

00:14:26.760 people towards either coming onto the platform or, or staying onto the platform.

00:14:32.000 And what, what I asked the reader to do in NUM is to think about an element of transparency

00:14:39.620 and reporting of their outlet.

00:14:41.060 So I don't advocate what many people say is, you know, you know, listen to parts of the

00:14:46.860 left and listen to parts of the right and have a cocktail of opinions, but rather look

00:14:51.720 for transparency.

00:14:53.200 And then secondly, think about, you know, how much time are you consuming this news and

00:14:58.900 information?

00:14:59.460 Are you, you know, are you, are you stuck on cable news for two hours or are you arguing

00:15:03.360 with people on Twitter about conspiracy theories for hours a day, but finding out, okay, where

00:15:09.200 have I reached this point where I'm starting to get this, what's called headline fatigue,

00:15:12.700 where I have just too much finding out that I'm, I'm informed as a, as a voter, as a citizen,

00:15:18.200 as an investor, whatever it might be, I'm informed and I, and I can move on without having

00:15:22.940 it take over my life.

00:15:25.080 But with this topic of news and information and many of these other platforms, it really

00:15:30.400 is understanding that there's a Venn diagram between what these platforms are trying to

00:15:36.500 do, which is bring in our attention and deliver us to marketers as the product.

00:15:40.840 And what we're trying to do in this case, to be well-informed and realizing, okay, there's

00:15:45.360 a crossover there, but this isn't solely designed to just keep me informed and I have to manage

00:15:50.000 it without it managing me.

00:15:52.280 Well, speaking of social media, a lot of the outrage that you see on social media that people

00:15:58.820 are just tired of is caused by these stories that are, you know, negative based, because

00:16:05.840 again, that's what grabs our attention.

00:16:07.180 We have a negativity bias when things are good.

00:16:09.860 We don't even, it's not even on the radar when things are good, but what is it about social

00:16:14.340 media that tends to have people just continually wanting to be outraged and just say hot takes

00:16:22.140 and get in fights?

00:16:23.660 Is it something about the platforms themselves that encourage that?

00:16:26.900 Or is that just, or is just, do the platforms manifest our innate human nature?

00:16:32.540 We always say we want good news, but in lots of research studies, individuals are presented

00:16:37.420 with good news and bad news, and they're just drawn to the bad news.

00:16:40.000 And it goes back to this idea of detecting threats.

00:16:42.140 But I think when it comes to social media, a lot of this has to do with attention panhandling.

00:16:47.960 So we tend to connect on social media with like-minded individuals, whether it's politically,

00:16:54.200 socially, it could even be geographically.

00:16:56.580 And with so much of this, there is a currency of attention.

00:17:01.280 And we want, we're seeking attention from others.

00:17:03.940 You know, I use that term attention panhandling.

00:17:06.760 And so in order for us to get attention, we can do that a lot of different ways.

00:17:10.940 And, you know, we could do that through selfies.

00:17:13.060 We could do that through engaging other people and being funny.

00:17:16.400 But when it comes to outrage, the best way for us to do that is to either A, be a source

00:17:22.140 of information that we think is going to outrage the other people within my tribe, within these

00:17:27.200 like-minded individuals.

00:17:28.900 Or secondly, that I can be articulate that I have the highest amount of outrage than anyone

00:17:35.480 else around.

00:17:36.220 So I always think about the analogy of the weight room in the gym.

00:17:41.500 And if I want attention in that weight room and everybody's in there, you know, lifting

00:17:45.800 weights, I need to lift the heaviest weight to show that I'm the, you know, I'm going to

00:17:50.920 get the attention and be the most devoted here within this platform, which, you know, I can't

00:17:55.960 even come up with that example well because I'm not, yeah, I don't lift a lot of weights,

00:18:00.280 clearly.

00:18:00.500 But, you know, we don't get attention on social media by saying, you know, let's think carefully

00:18:05.880 about this and let's weigh both sides of the issues.

00:18:09.180 We basically have to showcase we're the most devoted.

00:18:12.500 We're taking the most moral high ground and being the most upset, right?

00:18:17.760 And there's some of this that has to do, too, with fear and people are, you know, people

00:18:23.400 are scared when they see these news sources talking about threats and there's elements of

00:18:27.760 loneliness.

00:18:28.400 But in reality, it really goes back to getting attention and we can be the most outraged and

00:18:34.100 get the most attention.

00:18:35.780 And the byproduct of that can be conspiracy theories or people moving to even more of the

00:18:41.440 fringes of our society regarding a lot of different topics.

00:18:45.660 You highlight research by Jillian Jordan, who explored people who get upset on behalf of

00:18:52.700 other people.

00:18:53.660 So, they're claiming some offense on behalf of some other person that, you know, they're

00:18:58.360 not the victim.

00:18:59.480 And what they found is that people who do that, who found that third-party punishers is what

00:19:05.340 they're called.

00:19:06.080 Right.

00:19:06.400 They gain trustworthiness by signaling some sort of offense, right?

00:19:09.780 So, it is a currency.

00:19:11.740 That's how you can get attention is by being offended for yourself or on behalf of someone

00:19:15.800 else.

00:19:16.720 Yes.

00:19:17.000 And of course, there's a downside to that, even in that study, where if you take it too

00:19:20.360 far, then you suddenly lose that currency, right?

00:19:24.140 You take it too far in your language and whatnot on social media, and you actually start to

00:19:28.620 work counterintuitively as a diminishing return.

00:19:32.760 But absolutely, if I want to show that I am, you know, the most devoted to the cause, then

00:19:38.220 I've got to be the most upset to get that attention.

00:19:40.460 Absolutely.

00:19:40.860 Absolutely.

00:19:41.780 And do you think we, at some level, humans like to feel outraged?

00:19:45.580 Like it feels good to be outraged?

00:19:47.280 I don't, I find it difficult to imagine that people enjoy being upset all of the time.

00:19:57.880 And I also think too, if, and in the book, I talk about a couple of pieces that ran a

00:20:04.880 few years ago, you know, talk about the year of outrage, and they outline all, you know,

00:20:09.340 365 days, what was the most outrageous thing that people, you know, were so upset on Twitter

00:20:13.720 about, and you look back upon those things now, and, you know, there were a few big things.

00:20:18.740 I mean, one was 2014, and there were a few major issues that happened in that time and

00:20:23.100 events that required action.

00:20:25.540 But so much of it was just meaningless and trivial, you know, looking at it even from a

00:20:30.560 couple of years, a couple of years removed.

00:20:32.620 So I think people can experience outrage fatigue.

00:20:36.200 But again, it's no different than people who are attention panhandling and changing their

00:20:41.780 life experiences to be a content creator on Instagram.

00:20:45.440 It's kind of the same thing.

00:20:47.340 And it goes back to an ROI.

00:20:49.340 Is this investment of my attention and all the things I'm trying to do on social media,

00:20:54.720 is it really working for me?

00:20:55.980 And I think with folks with outrage, I think they would argue that it isn't.

00:21:00.080 Have you figured out a way to use social media without getting outraged?

00:21:03.080 Well, there's a few things.

00:21:05.340 I mean, so first and foremost, you know, who we're engaging is critical, you know, for

00:21:09.220 a lot of different reasons.

00:21:10.180 So, you know, we talk about, you know, Dunbar's number, which is about 150 people that we tend

00:21:15.980 to be able to have relationships with.

00:21:17.880 And that could be anything from high school classmates to co-workers and family members.

00:21:23.080 And so I'll answer your question kind of at a 30,000-foot view and say, you know, if we're

00:21:28.160 if we're using social media to engage issues with people in our lives and strengthen those

00:21:35.120 relationships, then it's a really good thing.

00:21:37.100 If it's to just voice some sort of frustration with strangers, right, you know, and do it in

00:21:43.800 this kind of anonymous way on Twitter, then it's, again, it's really not paying off.

00:21:48.620 So I think how we manage within the bubbles that we're on on social media could be helpful.

00:21:53.540 And for the most part, most of the data suggests that the people who are most outrageous, you

00:21:59.760 know, most outraged, rather, on these platforms tend to be the ones that are spending the most

00:22:03.480 time on it.

00:22:04.540 So there's an element of, you know, getting off of these platforms and not being on Twitter

00:22:08.840 for an hour or two hours at a time arguing with people.

00:22:12.280 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:22:16.340 And now back to the show.

00:22:18.560 You make the case that one of the consequences of constantly being bombarded by negative

00:22:23.080 sensational news, the outrage you see on social media, is that people develop what you call

00:22:28.840 compassion fatigue.

00:22:30.160 What is that?

00:22:31.240 And is there a way to avoid compassion fatigue?

00:22:35.260 Yeah, so compassion fatigue is a term that was developed by researchers who were looking

00:22:39.860 at those that are working in the medical field or even journalists.

00:22:43.140 And they were people who were exposed to the suffering of others on a regular basis.

00:22:49.060 And somewhat like attention, people that study this area will tell you that the amount of

00:22:54.620 compassion that we have is actually fixed.

00:22:57.120 Well, that same element of compassion fatigue can occur when we're watching sensationalism all

00:23:02.080 the time.

00:23:02.760 And we're seeing this, again, as I mentioned earlier, this constant suffering of others.

00:23:07.820 And then the added element of that is a feeling of powerlessness, right?

00:23:12.220 That we can't really help the situation.

00:23:15.780 So I profile a doctor who was a resident in the early 80s in Atlanta when the AIDS crisis

00:23:25.400 was really starting to become a major part of our healthcare crisis.

00:23:31.240 And he took up that cause seeing how terribly patients were treated then because there was

00:23:36.900 so much fear out there.

00:23:38.120 And when he treated those patients over the, I think, 10 or 12 years that he did that from

00:23:43.720 the mid, early 80s to the mid 90s, him and his staff experienced a great deal of compassion

00:23:49.540 fatigue, most notably because not only are they seeing people suffering with a terrible

00:23:53.380 disease, but they couldn't really help them.

00:23:55.600 There really wasn't, medicine wasn't advanced enough to really help them along.

00:23:59.780 And so when you think about compassion fatigue when it comes to us watching the suffering

00:24:06.100 of others on social media or on cable news or whatever it might be, if we have that feeling

00:24:12.340 of helplessness and we can't help that suffering, then we're more likely to experience compassion

00:24:17.600 fatigue.

00:24:18.360 And we can address that by picking one cause.

00:24:22.340 So if we see five terrible incidents that happened over the course of an hour of cable

00:24:28.140 news and we pick one, you know, maybe it's helping animals in a shelter or giving to the Red

00:24:33.280 Cross or another charity or whatever it might be, that can help us, you know, realize that

00:24:38.800 we can make a difference and kind of address the element of compassion fatigue and obviously

00:24:43.280 managing our own reaction or lack thereof to seeing that suffering and saying, you know,

00:24:49.300 it's time to turn this off.

00:24:50.400 I'm informed.

00:24:51.280 I understand the situation.

00:24:52.720 I don't need to sit and watch this for another 20 minutes or two hours or whatever.

00:24:56.940 William James, the father of psychology, he wrote a lot about attention and he actually

00:25:02.620 wrote about, I think, compassion fatigue.

00:25:05.160 He had this quote.

00:25:05.860 I'm going to read it here.

00:25:06.440 He says, there is no more contentable type of human character than that of the nerveless

00:25:11.460 sentimentalist and dreamer who spends his life in a weltering sea of sensibility and emotion,

00:25:16.560 but who never does a manly concrete deed.

00:25:20.220 So it's the same sort of thing.

00:25:21.500 You just, you feel a lot of things, but then you don't do anything.

00:25:24.780 And it sounds like his solution was, okay, if you feel something for something that happened,

00:25:29.240 even if it's far away, well, go do something, go help your neighbor, go call your mother,

00:25:34.740 do something.

00:25:35.660 Don't just let that emotion go to waste because then you become numb to the emotion.

00:25:41.100 That's right.

00:25:41.560 And compassion is an active entity.

00:25:46.420 It's not passive.

00:25:47.880 So you have to do something in order to respond.

00:25:52.080 And with social media, hitting like or making a comment that it's bad is not active.

00:25:59.360 That is still passive.

00:26:01.080 And so absolutely take one thing and devote your energy to it to make that difference.

00:26:07.820 Yeah.

00:26:07.900 William James was right way back then, and it still holds true today. 0.98

00:26:11.500 And what do you do about people?

00:26:12.580 One of the problems of being on social media is that everyone has their cause that thing is the

00:26:16.700 most important.

00:26:17.260 And sometimes they feel like, well, if you're not with me, you're against me.

00:26:20.920 It's like, well, I don't have time.

00:26:22.180 I'm going to focus on, this is my thing.

00:26:24.220 Any tips on managing that?

00:26:27.980 Well, I mean, I think, you know, everybody has a cause on social media, but we don't have

00:26:33.100 to respond to it.

00:26:34.020 And we don't have to doom scroll through everybody's, what everybody's saying on social media about

00:26:39.260 their cause.

00:26:39.920 If we're saying, you know, my response to this terrible tragedy that's happened is to

00:26:47.000 give money or volunteer.

00:26:49.580 That's away from social media.

00:26:51.360 And I don't have to post about that.

00:26:52.860 I could just go do that.

00:26:54.560 And so to me, it's, you know, it's managing the amount of time that we have on social media.

00:27:00.800 If we see what other people's causes are and we become interested in it, you know, because

00:27:04.520 we have a Facebook friend or family member, whatever it might be, that's saying, you know,

00:27:08.460 I was really affected by this disease and I'm hoping that, you know, everybody that's

00:27:14.320 my friend or connection here can, you know, can walk for the cause or whatever.

00:27:18.620 All of that's great.

00:27:20.160 But it just seems to me that so many people seem to think that they're checking the box

00:27:25.640 and responding because they're hitting like and making this, creating this kind of artificial

00:27:30.840 reward again on social media and it's not doing anything.

00:27:33.440 I always laugh at the, you know, the, when they say these, these folks, and this is probably

00:27:37.920 very cynical, but you know, this, these folks are like, this man's a, you know, decorated

00:27:41.500 World War II veteran.

00:27:42.940 Can we give him a hundred thousand likes?

00:27:46.240 I mean, is that really, what exactly is that doing?

00:27:50.340 You know, I'd rather tell him thank you in person or, you know, write him a letter.

00:27:54.300 So we just, we can, we go back to this artificial currency and it's not getting us anywhere.

00:28:00.240 All right.

00:28:00.320 So do a manly concrete deed.

00:28:01.780 That's the, that's the antidote.

00:28:02.940 Do a manly concrete deed.

00:28:04.700 And I mean, if you, you know, I'm not saying you shouldn't hit like for the World War II 1.00

00:28:08.120 veteran, but we could probably do a little more than just hit like, right?

00:28:11.900 Right.

00:28:12.580 And how much is he really on Facebook, by the way?

00:28:14.700 Yeah.

00:28:14.840 He probably doesn't even know.

00:28:15.920 And like his grandson will tell him, he's like, what the hell does that mean?

00:28:19.660 What the hell's a like anyway?

00:28:20.820 Yeah.

00:28:20.940 What is that?

00:28:21.880 So let's talk about, you have this chapter about Instagram and you highlight all this research

00:28:26.860 that Instagram, when we use Instagram, it can change the way we experience life.

00:28:33.200 When we typically think of like, we are using Instagram to catalog our life, but you're saying

00:28:38.540 that no, Instagram actually changes what we do in life.

00:28:41.400 How so?

00:28:41.760 So, yeah, I mean, at a 30,000 foot level, it makes a lot of people, I won't say everyone,

00:28:48.860 but it makes a lot of people become content creators.

00:28:51.780 So if I see myself as a content creator and I'm going back to the reward structure of getting

00:29:00.020 likes and good comments, then I'm going to pick experiences through the lens as a content

00:29:08.340 creator.

00:29:09.180 So I may say, you know, I know I really should have lunch with my grandparents, but you know,

00:29:15.160 my Instagram followers, they're not going to care for that picture of Nana and Pop-Pop

00:29:22.900 and Meatloaf and me.

00:29:24.640 I need to do something else to get those likes, or I go on vacation and I really want to do

00:29:31.000 A, B, and C, but D, E, and F are going to get more likes.

00:29:34.380 So I'm going to go do that.

00:29:36.300 So that's one of the pieces that we actually start to change the things that we, the decisions,

00:29:42.400 the behaviors that we would like to do.

00:29:43.860 We change them for, to be subservient to this role as a, as a content creator, but even

00:29:49.540 thinking about photos in general, you know, we, our memory changes when we, we take a lot

00:29:56.880 of pictures of something.

00:29:57.700 We don't remember things as well because, you know, going back to this idea of attention,

00:30:01.040 we're, we're fixated on our device.

00:30:03.600 We might be changing the, the environment to make it better for our Instagram crowd.

00:30:10.600 So I use the example of a family reunion, right?

00:30:13.900 So we might be thinking, okay, what's a good shot that's going to put my family in the best

00:30:17.700 light, right?

00:30:19.020 I'm not going to take a picture of, you know, my grandfather who's, you know, asleep drooling

00:30:23.380 on the, on the Barker lounger, but I'm going to, I've got to alter experiences so that it

00:30:28.400 looks better.

00:30:29.140 And, and the other part about that too, is that when we post pictures of events, whether

00:30:35.400 it's vacations or family reunions or whatnot, we're inviting our followers into that experience,

00:30:41.140 which may or may not be welcome to other people that are part of that experience.

00:30:46.920 So we essentially, it's, it's, it's great to take photos for memories, for us to remember

00:30:53.280 things that happened in the past.

00:30:55.100 But when we start talking about posting them, it changes the whole dynamic.

00:31:00.080 And it also changes it too, because we tend to post them during the event.

00:31:04.040 And now we're in the dopamine loop during the event, we're, we're, we're posting while

00:31:08.000 the event is still going on.

00:31:09.580 And we're going back to check the, check Instagram again, did I get any likes?

00:31:13.280 Now I'm back to my variable reward schedule.

00:31:15.300 So it's okay to post after if it's the actual event.

00:31:19.480 But again, I think we have to ask ourselves, okay, did I change my vacation because I want

00:31:24.440 to be a content creator?

00:31:26.100 Or did I do the things that I wanted to do?

00:31:28.620 And now I'm going to, I'm going to share that with, with people on Instagram.

00:31:32.320 That's healthy.

00:31:33.060 But if it's changing what we want to do in our lives, that may not be healthy.

00:31:38.120 I thought it was interesting too, you, you highlight research.

00:31:39.960 So not only when you take pictures for Instagram of an experience you're having, not only do you

00:31:45.420 remember that experience less because you're so focused on getting the right image and you're,

00:31:49.900 then you're posting it and you're looking for, so your attention's diverted from actually

00:31:53.100 experiencing that moment.

00:31:54.960 But then also people, when they look back on the experience, they actually remember it

00:32:00.520 like less fondly.

00:32:01.680 They had a bad time in a negative light compared to those who just, I'm just going to enjoy

00:32:05.940 this experience and not, not going to spectate.

00:32:08.520 I'm not going to take a third party view to see what this would look like on Instagram.

00:32:12.540 Yeah.

00:32:12.760 I mean, it's as simple as saying, if I sent you to an experience that you really wanted

00:32:17.320 to go to, and I said, I want you to, to work this device throughout that great experience,

00:32:23.020 you'd be like, I don't want to do that.

00:32:24.060 I want to enjoy the experience in and of itself.

00:32:26.520 Right?

00:32:26.960 So it's, it goes back to this idea of our attention and the amount of attention we have

00:32:31.620 to devote to certain experiences.

00:32:33.680 And it also, again, goes back to what it is that we actually want to do and not altering

00:32:39.140 that based upon what we see ourselves as a content creator.

00:32:42.280 And by the way, you know, there's, there's research out there that shows that, you know,

00:32:45.680 even when it comes to our devices and experiences, I mean, we have 10% of people say that they

00:32:50.300 picked up their phone during sex.

00:32:52.220 I mean, I don't know if they're posting pictures on Instagram of it, but I mean, you know, we're

00:32:57.820 altering our experiences because of this element of attention and dopamine.

00:33:03.500 And I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't think there was data that talked to the other partner

00:33:07.700 that was part of that, but it's, I can't imagine that it was seen, you know, favorably.

00:33:12.280 No, I imagine not.

00:33:13.800 Speaking of how our behavior has changed because of, you know, because we're doing it for the

00:33:18.120 gram last week, my wife and I, we drove to New Mexico, went to Santa Fe for a few days

00:33:22.560 on the way there, you know, we're passing through Amarillo and Amarillo, there's this thing

00:33:28.120 called the Cadillac ranch.

00:33:29.240 Have you heard of the Cadillac ranch?

00:33:30.580 I have.

00:33:31.100 Yes.

00:33:31.400 Yeah.

00:33:31.600 So, you know, these Cadillacs that are buried at an angle, like the nose end.

00:33:34.820 And, you know, I used to go to New Mexico all the time as a kid, because I got family

00:33:38.920 there and you drive by the Cadillac ranch and like, no, I don't know.

00:33:42.260 No one was ever there.

00:33:43.060 It was just like these, it was like, this is a goofy thing.

00:33:45.740 I drove by last week and there was this ginormous line, just a huge line of people.

00:33:51.980 There was a taco truck.

00:33:53.680 And I guess it's become this Instagram destination.

00:33:56.780 People take pictures of themselves in front of the Cadillac ranch.

00:33:59.440 And I just thought it was so bizarre.

00:34:01.200 If it weren't for Instagram, I don't think anyone would be standing in line to check this

00:34:05.060 stuff out.

00:34:05.520 Yeah.

00:34:06.060 And, you know, you would love to ask those same people a year from now.

00:34:10.720 So what was your experience like at the Cadillac ranch?

00:34:14.600 And they might talk to you about how they drove way out of their way to get there.

00:34:18.760 Right.

00:34:20.100 And how much of an effort it was.

00:34:22.460 Are they going to, and nothing against the Cadillac ranch, but are they going to say that

00:34:26.120 it was a great experience?

00:34:27.340 I mean, you know, again, it goes back to this ROI.

00:34:31.040 Well, it's on Instagram, but how many likes did you get?

00:34:33.040 You know, it goes back to that artificial reward.

00:34:36.580 Okay.

00:34:36.800 So with Instagram, be a little more thoughtful.

00:34:39.080 You don't have to like enjoy the experience for what it is.

00:34:42.600 Snap a picture of you.

00:34:44.160 And then if you're, I mean, I found like for like personal experiences, I only share pictures

00:34:48.840 with like close friends and family.

00:34:52.200 I don't have a public facing personal Instagram account because I just want that stuff for me

00:34:57.380 and my family.

00:34:58.160 And I don't know, that seems to work for me.

00:35:00.100 Other people's mileage may vary.

00:35:01.800 That's the, that's, and that's, you know, most people, most researchers would say the

00:35:06.820 approach that you're taking is exactly right.

00:35:08.760 That whether it's Instagram or Facebook, you know, if we're using the platform to share

00:35:14.820 and strengthen relationships with people we know and people that we care about, sharing

00:35:20.080 that we went to X, Y, and Z is a good thing, right?

00:35:23.760 Or sharing part of our day.

00:35:24.920 That's a good thing.

00:35:26.060 But the whole dynamic changes when we start engaging and sharing with people that we don't

00:35:32.280 know, you know, and, and we didn't talk much about FOMO here, but, you know, if I know people

00:35:37.720 on my Facebook and they start posting these curated versions of their lives, you know, that

00:35:43.700 it seems like they're on vacation all the time, you know, I can say to myself, well, you know,

00:35:48.680 that's, you know, that's John, you know, John's always, I know John, John's life ain't that great.

00:35:54.140 He's using filters there and he goes on vacation, you know, once every two years and he spreads

00:35:59.300 out those photos.

00:36:00.440 That's okay.

00:36:01.260 That's fine.

00:36:01.820 But when we have people we don't know, now FOMO starts to, to, to, to come into the picture

00:36:09.280 where we start to say, well, wait a minute, look at their lives.

00:36:12.980 Why isn't my life like that?

00:36:14.740 And we actually start to question our own choices.

00:36:18.020 We start to say, well, wait a minute, why aren't I doing those things?

00:36:20.860 So, you know, working within a certain sphere of people that we have relationships seems to be

00:36:28.560 very healthy when it comes to social media.

00:36:31.200 But when we get beyond that, it gets a little bit tougher for us to, to understand and, and

00:36:36.660 think about what our, what our expectations are.

00:36:39.900 So we've talked about different areas of the, our internet lives where our attention is being

00:36:45.380 fought for and things we can do to rest back control, but like big picture, like, what do you

00:36:49.980 think someone who's listening to this podcast can start doing today to take back their attention

00:36:56.240 and like be more intentional about how they use the internet so they don't feel numb?

00:37:01.200 I think the first thing is, is, is we mentioned earlier is this reflective process is the time

00:37:07.200 that you're allocating towards these platforms, getting you to where your goals are, your goals

00:37:13.860 for your career, your goals for your, you know, remodeling your home, your goals for your

00:37:21.260 relationships and your personal life or your experiences, whatnot.

00:37:25.000 Is, is it, is it really working for you or are you in a habit of distraction where you

00:37:29.820 just habitually go and doom scroll on some of these platforms or argue with people and

00:37:35.420 become outraged?

00:37:36.420 So that's the, that's the first element.

00:37:38.500 And I think related to that is, is, is, are you using it as a tool?

00:37:43.540 Is it a tool for deeper relationships, you know, whether it's a dating app or whether it's

00:37:49.520 Facebook or Instagram, is it leading you to more authenticity or are you finding like some

00:37:56.760 of the data that are coming out now, or is it making you more lonely where you're investing

00:38:01.580 more and more time and attention on these platforms that you're not, you know, you're not, you're not

00:38:07.540 engaging people authentically or you're on your phone with your, with your, your spouse or, or

00:38:13.780 partner and it's actually taking away from the relationship that you have.

00:38:18.940 So if we can think about these things as tools and not destinations, and again, think critically

00:38:25.540 about what they're designed to do, we're each going to be better off and knowing that we all

00:38:32.400 know that our time is valuable, but our attention is just as valuable or more valuable.

00:38:37.540 And we have an opportunity, hopefully through the book and, and through this reflective

00:38:41.600 process to, to say, you know what, I'm taking it back.

00:38:44.760 I'm going to manage it towards what my goals are towards traction rather than distraction.

00:38:50.440 Well, Charles, this has been a great conversation.

00:38:51.820 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:38:54.360 I appreciate that.

00:38:55.600 You know, you could, you could find Numb on all the major platforms.

00:38:58.940 It's available hardback, ebook, audio book.

00:39:01.660 I also have the, the Numb podcast was just started last month.

00:39:05.700 I noticed that, that you all have 2.5 million downloads a month.

00:39:09.980 And so, you know, that means between our two podcasts, we have 2.5 million downloads,

00:39:14.980 but we're just getting started there.

00:39:16.980 But we walk through all of the different elements of the book.

00:39:19.620 So I encourage folks to look at that.

00:39:21.020 And, and obviously if you're interested in more, go to charleschafin.com.

00:39:25.400 All right, Charles Chafin.

00:39:26.120 Thanks for your time.

00:39:26.600 It's been a pleasure.

00:39:27.380 Thank you.

00:39:27.780 Thanks for having me.

00:39:28.960 My guest today was Dr. Charles Chafin.

00:39:30.520 He's the author of the book, Numb.

00:39:31.840 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:39:33.880 You can find more information about his work at his website, charleschafin.com.

00:39:37.520 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash num,

00:39:40.020 where you find links to resources.

00:39:41.260 We delve deeper into this topic.

00:39:49.500 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:39:52.200 Check out our website at artofmanless.com,

00:39:53.840 where you find our podcast archives,

00:39:55.300 as well as thousands of articles written over the years

00:39:56.660 about pretty much anything you think of.

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00:40:21.940 Until next time, it's Brad McKay.

00:40:23.160 Remind you to not only listen to the AOM podcast,

00:40:24.980 but put what you've heard into action.

00:40:26.460 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - August 04, 2021

How to Fight Internet-Induced Numbness

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