How to Fight Internet-Induced Numbness
Episode Stats
Summary
Dr. Charles Chafin has written a new book called Numb, How the Information Age Dulls Our Senses and How We Can Get Them Back, which explores the various ways internet induced numbness manifests itself from FOMO to choice overload on dating apps to the phenomenon of compassion fatigue.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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Now the ironic thing about our digital devices is that they promise constant stimulation
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Numb in terms of struggling to be present, numb and feeling overloaded with information
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and choices, numb and feeling like we often view even our own experiences from a third
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My guest today, Dr. Charles Chafin has written a book called Numb, How the Information Age
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Dulls Our Senses and How We Can Get Them Back, which explores the various ways internet
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induced numbness manifests itself from FOMO to choice overload on dating apps.
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On the show today, we focus in particular on how the news media and social media can negatively
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alter the way we experience life and what to do about it.
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We first discuss how recovering our sense of engagement with life begins with thinking
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about the fact that our attention is a finite resource and being intentional about how we
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We then discuss how to deal with what Charles calls the intention panhandlers who vie for
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Charles also talks about the phenomenon of compassion fatigue, where there's so many
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worthy causes you could take up that you end up doing nothing at all.
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We then discuss how Instagram can change the way you experience life in an age where we
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And we enter a conversation with how to wrest back control of your attention and use it towards
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash numb.
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All right, Charles Chafin, welcome to the show.
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So you got a new book out called Numb, how the information age dulls our senses and how
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So this book was inspired by this realization that you just felt like the internet was making
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When did that start happening and when did you start noticing it?
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Yeah, you know, it started really thinking about, but my area of study is attention.
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So obviously thinking about the attention economy that we live in and devices and whatnot that
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But, you know, one of the other elements that was key to this book is the notion of compassion.
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And I started thinking about the regular access that we have to stories of human suffering and
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tragedy and some of the sensationalism or vivid pictures and videos that we see all the time
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And I started to think about, well, given seeing all this all the time, how does that affect our
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ability to be compassionate and responsive to the people that are around us, the people in our
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And then gradually, as I started thinking about this from a more 360 degree view, I wanted to
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look at not only attention, which is the basis for so much of Numb, but I also wanted to think
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about all the byproducts of this information age, which is, you know, everything from FOMO,
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confirmation bias and choice overload, loneliness, and even porn and dating sites, and really look
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at how all of that, all of the things that are grabbing our attention and also creating
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what I'll call processed experiences that impact our lives in some way, shape, or form.
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I think all of us experience that numbness and feeling of just like, I just can't, I can't
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I don't, like you read stuff and it's just, you feel dull when you read it.
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How would you describe that numb feeling of information overload?
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I think it's a, it is an element of separating what is real and what isn't on some level,
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It kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier is that this idea of processed experiences,
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That we read about something, whether it's, whether it's an event, whether it's political,
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whether it's interpersonal or it's a video, or even if it's pornography, and it starts to,
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we start to, we start to have a difficulty in separating what is real and what is a depiction
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of reality and how that impacts how we interact with, with the, with the world around us.
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So I see the element of numb and where the title came from is this idea of just, just constantly
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having these waves of new information, new videos, new processed experiences, washing on the shores
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of our attention, if you will, that creates this, this feeling where we start to not be able to
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separate what's, what's real from what's not, what's relevant from what's irrelevant.
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So as you said, in your book, numb, you walk readers through different ways, information
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overload from the internet can make us feel discombobulated, sort of the detachment from
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lived experience instead of processed experience.
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But as you said, underlying all this feeling of numbness is a, what you would say is a mismanagement
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I think it's, I think we might know what we think it is, but how, in your line of work,
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Yeah, you know, we throw that word around a lot, but attention at the, at the very highest
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You know, everything that we work, everything that we experience or sense is via our attention.
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You know, you can think about it this way, you know, that if we want something to go well
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or we want to experience it, we focus our attention on it.
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Or maybe better, better stated, if we don't want something to go well, we don't focus our
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And with that, it's kind of like this, the vividry of a kind of a, of a spotlight where
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we're shining it on a specific experience, a specific item at the expense of other things.
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And so given where we are in the information age, where we have so much of that coming at
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us, that spotlight or where we manage that spotlight becomes incredibly important.
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Added to that, we only have a fixed amount of it.
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So if I'm focusing all of my attention or resources on something, I'm really focusing,
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I can't add it or, or separate it into some element of multitasking.
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So given the fact that it's the attention to all, or it's the, it's the gateway to all
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we experience and that it's fixed, it is in, in my world, it's the most important commodity
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I think that's an important point that attention is fixed because I think we, the way we often
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treat it, at least I've, maybe I'm just speaking from my own experience, that attention
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You might have not how, like money is finite because you can see it and hold it, but attention,
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I mean, the greatest example of the idea of fixed attention is, is, is distracted driving,
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I mean, so you only have so much attention when you're driving.
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If someone or something, even if it's a, if it's texting or whatever it is, it's taking
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away from the amount of fixed attention you have.
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You don't, when you're driving, you don't say, okay, I'm going to find more attention,
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keep the same amount of attention on the road and my vehicle and add more to, to texting
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And we all think, of course, that we can multitask when we effectively can't.
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There's a, there's essentially becomes a, an element of a, of a cognitive bottleneck
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that we have where the tasks don't happen simultaneously, but they, they happen one
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And so we are constantly thinking that we multitask and that we multitask well, but in
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We at best can switch our attention between two things at once.
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And that attention switching, that can be tiring.
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That's probably what's contributed to a lot of the numb feeling.
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Just like, I just feel like a haze is in my brain.
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Well, yeah, that attention switching, you're, you, that expends energy.
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And you're, again, you're constantly, you know, if you, if you're working on something
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and you're, you're really focused on a report or whatever it might be, and you're distracted
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in some way, it can take upwards of 15 or 20 minutes for you to get that same level of
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attention back to where you were before you were distracted.
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So you think about two or three distractions in a given day, and that really, really adds
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So it does come at an incredible cost, whether it's devices or other humans or whatever it
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might be that take away from, from this valuable cognitive resource.
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So if you look back at human history, people have been complaining about their attention being
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You think monks wouldn't have, wouldn't have a problem with staying focused because they're
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cloistered in some cell, but, so this is a universal human problem, but you make the
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case that our digital technology just exacerbates this problem.
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I mean, how does digital technology disrupt our attention?
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Well, I mean, if you think about it in terms of, we have devices and platforms that are designed
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So, you know, at a 30,000 foot level, living in an attention economy where in essence, getting
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your attention is actually more important than getting your wallet because I can't get your
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wallet or if I'm trying to get your, your work or your affection from you or whatever
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it might be, I can't get that until I get your attention first.
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So these devices and platforms are developed really, really well to disrupt our attention.
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And it happens through a couple of different ways, right?
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So push notifications is always the most, the most famous example where we, we, we get some
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sort of sound or we get some sort of site trying to take our attention to, to a platform,
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one platform or another, but the, one of the bigger elements though, that comes in many
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of these platforms is, is something called operant conditioning.
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And that is basically where we have a reward system that can keep an individual engaged in
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So for example, on social media, where there's a lot of attention panhandling going on, whether
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But essentially if we, we give a reward structure where what's called a variable reward structure,
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meaning if I want you to do something one time, I will give you a reward after you do
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If I want you to do it continuously, I'm going to do this variable reward strategy, meaning
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you could do it three times and get the reward.
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You could do it 30 times to get the reward, but you don't know when it's coming.
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And so you constantly are repeating that action or that behavior.
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You know, and it's, it's most famously, you know, it goes way back into BF Skinner, who
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was a famous psychologist from the middle part of the 1900s.
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You know, he did this with pigeons and with all kinds of animals.
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And in fact, you could go onto YouTube and watch him.
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He trained pigeons to, to peck at enemy ships to, to guide missiles.
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So they hooked up electrodes to the beaks and, and he was, he got Navy funding to do it.
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It was right before whatever you call it, missile guided systems.
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But he gave those pigeons and, you know, there were rats and other animals, these, these
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variable reward structures to have them continuously repeat this behavior so that, you know, not
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We also see it in things like slot machines and whatnot, but we don't know when that like
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or that attention panhandling, going back to that, that reward, we don't know when it's
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We're constantly posting and reposting to get that reward.
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And speaking of that very, you know, companies using that variable reward to their advantage.
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Like I know Instagram does this, like they will, when you check to see how many likes
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you have, sometimes they'll wait until you have a bunch of likes, you know, built up and
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And then, so you want to check, but then the next time it's only 20.
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You know, it's even to the point where the notifications are in red, right?
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So if you go into a casino and you play even a penny slot, you, you may win a nominal amount
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of money at one point, but it's celebrated as a huge victory, right?
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So that it's, it's going to have you continuously playing and, you know, in a timeless place
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But again, you can find ways to hold, hold back those rewards to get you to continuously
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repeat that behavior again and again and again.
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And when it comes to, you know, things like social media, this kind of goes back to where
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we started here with attention that comes at an enormous cost.
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You know, when we see people who are on these platforms for two, three, four hours a day
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and what I tried to do with NUM, it wasn't to say to people, you know, what you're doing
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You should, you know, go on a dopamine fast and forget it.
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But what I wanted to do is, is lead the reader through a reflective process and ask, is this
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At the end of the day, at the end of the year, at the end of my life, the two, three,
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and four hours a day that I'm spending in this artificial reward platform and, you know,
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And it's the same thing, by the way, when we're talking about, you know, breaking news
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and, and, and all of the, many of the elements of outrage.
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But at the end of the day, was this worth it for me?
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Did it lead me to more productivity or more authenticity or better relationships?
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And so I hope that, that having a better understanding of what these platforms are designed to do,
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Well, speaking of breaking news, one of the chapters in the book, you devote to how the media uses our
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understanding of what grabs our attention to their benefit and the way the media companies make their
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A lot of them are moving to subscription, but, you know, still ad dollars is a big part of that.
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But to get those ad dollars, they, like you said, they need our attention first.
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So knowing that, how do media companies use what they know about what grabs our attention to get
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What doesn't work is if you're watching cable news and someone says, well, you know, coming up,
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I just want to let you all know everything is fine here.
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So the best way to do it is to, is to showcase some element of threat or outrage, which activates
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our amygdala, that part of our brain that helps keep us safe and detecting from threats and makes
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And so, you know, any type, any element of sensationalism or opinion is going to, is going to drive
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people towards either coming onto the platform or, or staying onto the platform.
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And what, what I asked the reader to do in NUM is to think about an element of transparency
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So I don't advocate what many people say is, you know, you know, listen to parts of the
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left and listen to parts of the right and have a cocktail of opinions, but rather look
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And then secondly, think about, you know, how much time are you consuming this news and
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Are you, you know, are you, are you stuck on cable news for two hours or are you arguing
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with people on Twitter about conspiracy theories for hours a day, but finding out, okay, where
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have I reached this point where I'm starting to get this, what's called headline fatigue,
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where I have just too much finding out that I'm, I'm informed as a, as a voter, as a citizen,
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as an investor, whatever it might be, I'm informed and I, and I can move on without having
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But with this topic of news and information and many of these other platforms, it really
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is understanding that there's a Venn diagram between what these platforms are trying to
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do, which is bring in our attention and deliver us to marketers as the product.
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And what we're trying to do in this case, to be well-informed and realizing, okay, there's
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a crossover there, but this isn't solely designed to just keep me informed and I have to manage
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Well, speaking of social media, a lot of the outrage that you see on social media that people
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are just tired of is caused by these stories that are, you know, negative based, because
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We have a negativity bias when things are good.
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We don't even, it's not even on the radar when things are good, but what is it about social
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media that tends to have people just continually wanting to be outraged and just say hot takes
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Is it something about the platforms themselves that encourage that?
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Or is that just, or is just, do the platforms manifest our innate human nature?
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We always say we want good news, but in lots of research studies, individuals are presented
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with good news and bad news, and they're just drawn to the bad news.
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And it goes back to this idea of detecting threats.
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But I think when it comes to social media, a lot of this has to do with attention panhandling.
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So we tend to connect on social media with like-minded individuals, whether it's politically,
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And with so much of this, there is a currency of attention.
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And we want, we're seeking attention from others.
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You know, I use that term attention panhandling.
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And so in order for us to get attention, we can do that a lot of different ways.
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And, you know, we could do that through selfies.
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We could do that through engaging other people and being funny.
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But when it comes to outrage, the best way for us to do that is to either A, be a source
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of information that we think is going to outrage the other people within my tribe, within these
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Or secondly, that I can be articulate that I have the highest amount of outrage than anyone
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So I always think about the analogy of the weight room in the gym.
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And if I want attention in that weight room and everybody's in there, you know, lifting
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weights, I need to lift the heaviest weight to show that I'm the, you know, I'm going to
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get the attention and be the most devoted here within this platform, which, you know, I can't
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even come up with that example well because I'm not, yeah, I don't lift a lot of weights,
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But, you know, we don't get attention on social media by saying, you know, let's think carefully
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about this and let's weigh both sides of the issues.
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We basically have to showcase we're the most devoted.
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We're taking the most moral high ground and being the most upset, right?
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And there's some of this that has to do, too, with fear and people are, you know, people
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are scared when they see these news sources talking about threats and there's elements of
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But in reality, it really goes back to getting attention and we can be the most outraged and
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And the byproduct of that can be conspiracy theories or people moving to even more of the
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fringes of our society regarding a lot of different topics.
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You highlight research by Jillian Jordan, who explored people who get upset on behalf of
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So, they're claiming some offense on behalf of some other person that, you know, they're
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And what they found is that people who do that, who found that third-party punishers is what
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They gain trustworthiness by signaling some sort of offense, right?
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That's how you can get attention is by being offended for yourself or on behalf of someone
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And of course, there's a downside to that, even in that study, where if you take it too
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far, then you suddenly lose that currency, right?
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You take it too far in your language and whatnot on social media, and you actually start to
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work counterintuitively as a diminishing return.
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But absolutely, if I want to show that I am, you know, the most devoted to the cause, then
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I've got to be the most upset to get that attention.
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And do you think we, at some level, humans like to feel outraged?
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I don't, I find it difficult to imagine that people enjoy being upset all of the time.
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And I also think too, if, and in the book, I talk about a couple of pieces that ran a
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few years ago, you know, talk about the year of outrage, and they outline all, you know,
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365 days, what was the most outrageous thing that people, you know, were so upset on Twitter
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about, and you look back upon those things now, and, you know, there were a few big things.
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I mean, one was 2014, and there were a few major issues that happened in that time and
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But so much of it was just meaningless and trivial, you know, looking at it even from a
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So I think people can experience outrage fatigue.
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But again, it's no different than people who are attention panhandling and changing their
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life experiences to be a content creator on Instagram.
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Is this investment of my attention and all the things I'm trying to do on social media,
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And I think with folks with outrage, I think they would argue that it isn't.
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Have you figured out a way to use social media without getting outraged?
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I mean, so first and foremost, you know, who we're engaging is critical, you know, for
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So, you know, we talk about, you know, Dunbar's number, which is about 150 people that we tend
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And that could be anything from high school classmates to co-workers and family members.
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And so I'll answer your question kind of at a 30,000-foot view and say, you know, if we're
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if we're using social media to engage issues with people in our lives and strengthen those
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If it's to just voice some sort of frustration with strangers, right, you know, and do it in
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this kind of anonymous way on Twitter, then it's, again, it's really not paying off.
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So I think how we manage within the bubbles that we're on on social media could be helpful.
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And for the most part, most of the data suggests that the people who are most outrageous, you
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know, most outraged, rather, on these platforms tend to be the ones that are spending the most
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So there's an element of, you know, getting off of these platforms and not being on Twitter
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for an hour or two hours at a time arguing with people.
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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You make the case that one of the consequences of constantly being bombarded by negative
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sensational news, the outrage you see on social media, is that people develop what you call
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And is there a way to avoid compassion fatigue?
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Yeah, so compassion fatigue is a term that was developed by researchers who were looking
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at those that are working in the medical field or even journalists.
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And they were people who were exposed to the suffering of others on a regular basis.
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And somewhat like attention, people that study this area will tell you that the amount of
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Well, that same element of compassion fatigue can occur when we're watching sensationalism all
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And we're seeing this, again, as I mentioned earlier, this constant suffering of others.
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And then the added element of that is a feeling of powerlessness, right?
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So I profile a doctor who was a resident in the early 80s in Atlanta when the AIDS crisis
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was really starting to become a major part of our healthcare crisis.
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And he took up that cause seeing how terribly patients were treated then because there was
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And when he treated those patients over the, I think, 10 or 12 years that he did that from
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the mid, early 80s to the mid 90s, him and his staff experienced a great deal of compassion
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fatigue, most notably because not only are they seeing people suffering with a terrible
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There really wasn't, medicine wasn't advanced enough to really help them along.
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And so when you think about compassion fatigue when it comes to us watching the suffering
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of others on social media or on cable news or whatever it might be, if we have that feeling
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of helplessness and we can't help that suffering, then we're more likely to experience compassion
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So if we see five terrible incidents that happened over the course of an hour of cable
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news and we pick one, you know, maybe it's helping animals in a shelter or giving to the Red
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Cross or another charity or whatever it might be, that can help us, you know, realize that
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we can make a difference and kind of address the element of compassion fatigue and obviously
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managing our own reaction or lack thereof to seeing that suffering and saying, you know,
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I don't need to sit and watch this for another 20 minutes or two hours or whatever.
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William James, the father of psychology, he wrote a lot about attention and he actually
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He says, there is no more contentable type of human character than that of the nerveless
00:25:11.460
sentimentalist and dreamer who spends his life in a weltering sea of sensibility and emotion,
00:25:21.500
You just, you feel a lot of things, but then you don't do anything.
00:25:24.780
And it sounds like his solution was, okay, if you feel something for something that happened,
00:25:29.240
even if it's far away, well, go do something, go help your neighbor, go call your mother,
00:25:35.660
Don't just let that emotion go to waste because then you become numb to the emotion.
00:25:47.880
So you have to do something in order to respond.
00:25:52.080
And with social media, hitting like or making a comment that it's bad is not active.
00:26:01.080
And so absolutely take one thing and devote your energy to it to make that difference.
00:26:07.900
William James was right way back then, and it still holds true today.
00:26:12.580
One of the problems of being on social media is that everyone has their cause that thing is the
00:26:17.260
And sometimes they feel like, well, if you're not with me, you're against me.
00:26:27.980
Well, I mean, I think, you know, everybody has a cause on social media, but we don't have
00:26:34.020
And we don't have to doom scroll through everybody's, what everybody's saying on social media about
00:26:39.920
If we're saying, you know, my response to this terrible tragedy that's happened is to
00:26:54.560
And so to me, it's, you know, it's managing the amount of time that we have on social media.
00:27:00.800
If we see what other people's causes are and we become interested in it, you know, because
00:27:04.520
we have a Facebook friend or family member, whatever it might be, that's saying, you know,
00:27:08.460
I was really affected by this disease and I'm hoping that, you know, everybody that's
00:27:14.320
my friend or connection here can, you know, can walk for the cause or whatever.
00:27:20.160
But it just seems to me that so many people seem to think that they're checking the box
00:27:25.640
and responding because they're hitting like and making this, creating this kind of artificial
00:27:30.840
reward again on social media and it's not doing anything.
00:27:33.440
I always laugh at the, you know, the, when they say these, these folks, and this is probably
00:27:37.920
very cynical, but you know, this, these folks are like, this man's a, you know, decorated
00:27:46.240
I mean, is that really, what exactly is that doing?
00:27:50.340
You know, I'd rather tell him thank you in person or, you know, write him a letter.
00:27:54.300
So we just, we can, we go back to this artificial currency and it's not getting us anywhere.
00:28:04.700
And I mean, if you, you know, I'm not saying you shouldn't hit like for the World War II
00:28:08.120
veteran, but we could probably do a little more than just hit like, right?
00:28:12.580
And how much is he really on Facebook, by the way?
00:28:15.920
And like his grandson will tell him, he's like, what the hell does that mean?
00:28:21.880
So let's talk about, you have this chapter about Instagram and you highlight all this research
00:28:26.860
that Instagram, when we use Instagram, it can change the way we experience life.
00:28:33.200
When we typically think of like, we are using Instagram to catalog our life, but you're saying
00:28:38.540
that no, Instagram actually changes what we do in life.
00:28:41.760
So, yeah, I mean, at a 30,000 foot level, it makes a lot of people, I won't say everyone,
00:28:48.860
but it makes a lot of people become content creators.
00:28:51.780
So if I see myself as a content creator and I'm going back to the reward structure of getting
00:29:00.020
likes and good comments, then I'm going to pick experiences through the lens as a content
00:29:09.180
So I may say, you know, I know I really should have lunch with my grandparents, but you know,
00:29:15.160
my Instagram followers, they're not going to care for that picture of Nana and Pop-Pop
00:29:24.640
I need to do something else to get those likes, or I go on vacation and I really want to do
00:29:31.000
A, B, and C, but D, E, and F are going to get more likes.
00:29:36.300
So that's one of the pieces that we actually start to change the things that we, the decisions,
00:29:43.860
We change them for, to be subservient to this role as a, as a content creator, but even
00:29:49.540
thinking about photos in general, you know, we, our memory changes when we, we take a lot
00:29:57.700
We don't remember things as well because, you know, going back to this idea of attention,
00:30:03.600
We might be changing the, the environment to make it better for our Instagram crowd.
00:30:10.600
So I use the example of a family reunion, right?
00:30:13.900
So we might be thinking, okay, what's a good shot that's going to put my family in the best
00:30:19.020
I'm not going to take a picture of, you know, my grandfather who's, you know, asleep drooling
00:30:23.380
on the, on the Barker lounger, but I'm going to, I've got to alter experiences so that it
00:30:29.140
And, and the other part about that too, is that when we post pictures of events, whether
00:30:35.400
it's vacations or family reunions or whatnot, we're inviting our followers into that experience,
00:30:41.140
which may or may not be welcome to other people that are part of that experience.
00:30:46.920
So we essentially, it's, it's, it's great to take photos for memories, for us to remember
00:30:55.100
But when we start talking about posting them, it changes the whole dynamic.
00:31:00.080
And it also changes it too, because we tend to post them during the event.
00:31:04.040
And now we're in the dopamine loop during the event, we're, we're, we're posting while
00:31:09.580
And we're going back to check the, check Instagram again, did I get any likes?
00:31:15.300
So it's okay to post after if it's the actual event.
00:31:19.480
But again, I think we have to ask ourselves, okay, did I change my vacation because I want
00:31:28.620
And now I'm going to, I'm going to share that with, with people on Instagram.
00:31:33.060
But if it's changing what we want to do in our lives, that may not be healthy.
00:31:38.120
I thought it was interesting too, you, you highlight research.
00:31:39.960
So not only when you take pictures for Instagram of an experience you're having, not only do you
00:31:45.420
remember that experience less because you're so focused on getting the right image and you're,
00:31:49.900
then you're posting it and you're looking for, so your attention's diverted from actually
00:31:54.960
But then also people, when they look back on the experience, they actually remember it
00:32:01.680
They had a bad time in a negative light compared to those who just, I'm just going to enjoy
00:32:05.940
this experience and not, not going to spectate.
00:32:08.520
I'm not going to take a third party view to see what this would look like on Instagram.
00:32:12.760
I mean, it's as simple as saying, if I sent you to an experience that you really wanted
00:32:17.320
to go to, and I said, I want you to, to work this device throughout that great experience,
00:32:24.060
I want to enjoy the experience in and of itself.
00:32:26.960
So it's, it goes back to this idea of our attention and the amount of attention we have
00:32:33.680
And it also, again, goes back to what it is that we actually want to do and not altering
00:32:39.140
that based upon what we see ourselves as a content creator.
00:32:42.280
And by the way, you know, there's, there's research out there that shows that, you know,
00:32:45.680
even when it comes to our devices and experiences, I mean, we have 10% of people say that they
00:32:52.220
I mean, I don't know if they're posting pictures on Instagram of it, but I mean, you know, we're
00:32:57.820
altering our experiences because of this element of attention and dopamine.
00:33:03.500
And I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't think there was data that talked to the other partner
00:33:07.700
that was part of that, but it's, I can't imagine that it was seen, you know, favorably.
00:33:13.800
Speaking of how our behavior has changed because of, you know, because we're doing it for the
00:33:18.120
gram last week, my wife and I, we drove to New Mexico, went to Santa Fe for a few days
00:33:22.560
on the way there, you know, we're passing through Amarillo and Amarillo, there's this thing
00:33:31.600
So, you know, these Cadillacs that are buried at an angle, like the nose end.
00:33:34.820
And, you know, I used to go to New Mexico all the time as a kid, because I got family
00:33:38.920
there and you drive by the Cadillac ranch and like, no, I don't know.
00:33:43.060
It was just like these, it was like, this is a goofy thing.
00:33:45.740
I drove by last week and there was this ginormous line, just a huge line of people.
00:33:53.680
And I guess it's become this Instagram destination.
00:33:56.780
People take pictures of themselves in front of the Cadillac ranch.
00:34:01.200
If it weren't for Instagram, I don't think anyone would be standing in line to check this
00:34:06.060
And, you know, you would love to ask those same people a year from now.
00:34:10.720
So what was your experience like at the Cadillac ranch?
00:34:14.600
And they might talk to you about how they drove way out of their way to get there.
00:34:22.460
Are they going to, and nothing against the Cadillac ranch, but are they going to say that
00:34:27.340
I mean, you know, again, it goes back to this ROI.
00:34:31.040
Well, it's on Instagram, but how many likes did you get?
00:34:33.040
You know, it goes back to that artificial reward.
00:34:36.800
So with Instagram, be a little more thoughtful.
00:34:39.080
You don't have to like enjoy the experience for what it is.
00:34:44.160
And then if you're, I mean, I found like for like personal experiences, I only share pictures
00:34:52.200
I don't have a public facing personal Instagram account because I just want that stuff for me
00:35:01.800
That's the, that's, and that's, you know, most people, most researchers would say the
00:35:08.760
That whether it's Instagram or Facebook, you know, if we're using the platform to share
00:35:14.820
and strengthen relationships with people we know and people that we care about, sharing
00:35:20.080
that we went to X, Y, and Z is a good thing, right?
00:35:26.060
But the whole dynamic changes when we start engaging and sharing with people that we don't
00:35:32.280
know, you know, and, and we didn't talk much about FOMO here, but, you know, if I know people
00:35:37.720
on my Facebook and they start posting these curated versions of their lives, you know, that
00:35:43.700
it seems like they're on vacation all the time, you know, I can say to myself, well, you know,
00:35:48.680
that's, you know, that's John, you know, John's always, I know John, John's life ain't that great.
00:35:54.140
He's using filters there and he goes on vacation, you know, once every two years and he spreads
00:36:01.820
But when we have people we don't know, now FOMO starts to, to, to, to come into the picture
00:36:09.280
where we start to say, well, wait a minute, look at their lives.
00:36:14.740
And we actually start to question our own choices.
00:36:18.020
We start to say, well, wait a minute, why aren't I doing those things?
00:36:20.860
So, you know, working within a certain sphere of people that we have relationships seems to be
00:36:31.200
But when we get beyond that, it gets a little bit tougher for us to, to understand and, and
00:36:36.660
think about what our, what our expectations are.
00:36:39.900
So we've talked about different areas of the, our internet lives where our attention is being
00:36:45.380
fought for and things we can do to rest back control, but like big picture, like, what do you
00:36:49.980
think someone who's listening to this podcast can start doing today to take back their attention
00:36:56.240
and like be more intentional about how they use the internet so they don't feel numb?
00:37:01.200
I think the first thing is, is, is we mentioned earlier is this reflective process is the time
00:37:07.200
that you're allocating towards these platforms, getting you to where your goals are, your goals
00:37:13.860
for your career, your goals for your, you know, remodeling your home, your goals for your
00:37:21.260
relationships and your personal life or your experiences, whatnot.
00:37:25.000
Is, is it, is it really working for you or are you in a habit of distraction where you
00:37:29.820
just habitually go and doom scroll on some of these platforms or argue with people and
00:37:38.500
And I think related to that is, is, is, are you using it as a tool?
00:37:43.540
Is it a tool for deeper relationships, you know, whether it's a dating app or whether it's
00:37:49.520
Facebook or Instagram, is it leading you to more authenticity or are you finding like some
00:37:56.760
of the data that are coming out now, or is it making you more lonely where you're investing
00:38:01.580
more and more time and attention on these platforms that you're not, you know, you're not, you're not
00:38:07.540
engaging people authentically or you're on your phone with your, with your, your spouse or, or
00:38:13.780
partner and it's actually taking away from the relationship that you have.
00:38:18.940
So if we can think about these things as tools and not destinations, and again, think critically
00:38:25.540
about what they're designed to do, we're each going to be better off and knowing that we all
00:38:32.400
know that our time is valuable, but our attention is just as valuable or more valuable.
00:38:37.540
And we have an opportunity, hopefully through the book and, and through this reflective
00:38:41.600
process to, to say, you know what, I'm taking it back.
00:38:44.760
I'm going to manage it towards what my goals are towards traction rather than distraction.
00:38:50.440
Well, Charles, this has been a great conversation.
00:38:51.820
Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:38:55.600
You know, you could, you could find Numb on all the major platforms.
00:39:01.660
I also have the, the Numb podcast was just started last month.
00:39:05.700
I noticed that, that you all have 2.5 million downloads a month.
00:39:09.980
And so, you know, that means between our two podcasts, we have 2.5 million downloads,
00:39:16.980
But we walk through all of the different elements of the book.
00:39:21.020
And, and obviously if you're interested in more, go to charleschafin.com.
00:39:31.840
It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:39:33.880
You can find more information about his work at his website, charleschafin.com.
00:39:37.520
Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash num,
00:39:49.500
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:39:55.300
as well as thousands of articles written over the years
00:39:58.160
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00:40:03.680
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00:40:11.860
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00:40:23.160
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