The Art of Manliness - How to Hack the Habit Loop to Build a Better Life

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett. Before we get to today's show, I have an announcement.

00:00:03.220 When the Art of Manly's podcast started in 2009, we offered listeners one episode per week.

00:00:08.340 Later, we expanded to two episodes weekly. Starting this year in 2025, we'll be returning

00:00:13.300 to publishing just one episode a week. There are two big reasons we decided to do this.

00:00:18.380 First, we want to continue to be highly selective in choosing guests. We've always been highly

00:00:22.680 selective in choosing guests to have on the show. Looking for people with interesting,

00:00:26.300 unique, edifying, and useful ideas who are able to express those ideas articulately.

00:00:31.180 The interviews almost always center on an author and their book. And while there are endless so-so

00:00:34.980 books and guests out there, we're not looking for so-so. We're looking for great. Now, with over

00:00:39.920 a thousand books read and a thousand episodes recorded, we've hosted some of the best thinkers

00:00:43.960 multiple times, covered hundreds of subjects multiple times, and already highlighted many,

00:00:49.140 many of the best books out there. Subsequently, it's become harder and harder to maintain our

00:00:53.320 standard of guest selection, define topics we haven't already done and done well, and to book

00:00:57.880 folks who have something fresh and worthwhile to say. We've never wanted to find ourselves in a

00:01:02.040 position where we have to book someone we only think is so-so simply to fulfill a contractually

00:01:06.020 obligated slot on the calendar. Moving to one episode a week ensures that we can continue to

00:01:10.520 maintain our standards of selection and only offer our listeners episodes that are truly valuable.

00:01:15.200 Each week, there'll be an episode that is definitely worth listening to. The trend these days,

00:01:19.340 of course, is for podcasts to add more and more episodes and even spinoff shows in order to

00:01:23.200 maximize downloads and thus revenue. But quality has always mattered more to us than earnings.

00:01:28.200 The second reason we're moving to one episode a week is that it allows us to spend more time on

00:01:32.020 our first love, writing. This shift isn't just about doing less. It's about making room for

00:01:37.480 something that both Kate and I have had the itch to do more of in the past few years,

00:01:41.200 deep, thoughtful writing. Before the AOM podcast was a twice-a-week show, we were able to write

00:01:46.560 longer-form articles, which we really enjoyed. We haven't had much time for that since,

00:01:50.540 and we miss it. We'll be using the time that opens up for moving to one podcast episode a week

00:01:54.580 to write articles for a new substack we're starting, Dying Breed. To learn more about why

00:01:59.240 we're starting a new newsletter and what we're hoping to do with Dying Breed, visit aom.is

00:02:03.660 slash Dying Breed, or you can subscribe to the newsletter directly by going to dyingbreed.net.

00:02:09.380 So again, we're moving to one episode of the podcast each week. It's going to be the same format,

00:02:13.400 same quality guests you've come to expect from the Art of Manly's podcast.

00:02:16.240 Look for new episodes to drop on Tuesdays, and go check out dyingbreed.net to see what we're

00:02:21.260 doing over there. Thank you for your continued support all these years. We're looking forward

00:02:24.800 to many more episodes of the podcast in the coming years. Now on to today's show.

00:02:37.360 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:02:41.540 Think about your habits, the things you do automatically without much thought.

00:02:45.100 From brushing your teeth in the morning, to scrolling social media before bed.

00:02:49.260 There's a lot going on with these behaviors. On one level, they're just routines and actions

00:02:53.480 wired into our brains through repetition. There's also more to it than that. Our habits shape who

00:02:58.520 we are, influence our health and happiness, and determine much of our success in life.

00:03:03.900 There's a reason changing habits is one of the most powerful ways to transform ourselves.

00:03:08.320 Today on the show, Dr. Gina Cleo will help us understand the science of habit formation,

00:03:11.840 and how we can harness it to build better behaviors. Gina is a researcher with a PhD in

00:03:17.140 habit change and the author of The Habit Revolution, Simple Steps to Rewire Your Brain

00:03:21.520 for Powerful Habit Change. Gina and I discussed the three elements of the habit loop and how to hack

00:03:26.360 them to develop good habits and break bad ones. Along the way, we talk about why microhabits are so

00:03:31.740 effective for creating lasting change, the differences between men and women when it comes to forming habits,

00:03:36.780 how long it really takes for habit to stick, and much more. After the show's over, check out our

00:03:41.820 show notes at awim.is slash habit. All right, Dr. Gina Cleo, welcome to the show.

00:03:58.240 Thank you so much for having me, Britt.

00:03:59.920 You have a PhD in habit change and you got a book out called The Habit Revolution, Simple Steps to

00:04:05.640 Rewire Your Brain for Powerful Habit Change. It's a new year, so I imagine a lot of people are

00:04:10.220 thinking about good habits they want to start, maybe some bad habits they want to break. Let's

00:04:15.540 start off with your background a bit. You know the old saying, research is me-search. So was there

00:04:20.940 something that led you to dedicate your academic career to researching habits?

00:04:26.460 Yes, of course there was. You know, my journey into habit research was deeply personal. I started my

00:04:32.580 career as a dietitian and I was really interested in health and wellness my whole life, but I really

00:04:39.520 struggled to maintain my own healthy habits, whether it was exercising consistently or even eating well.

00:04:46.460 You know, I would finish a day in my clinic and I'd be eating a packet of biscuits on my way home and

00:04:52.140 really trying not to do that, but struggling so much with my own, I guess, healthy behaviors and

00:04:58.240 consistency. So I became really fascinated with the brain and neuroscience and why we do the things we

00:05:03.980 do and what motivates us as human beings and how to actually create consistency in our behavior.

00:05:10.900 And initially I just thought I was a terrible dietitian, but when I looked at the research,

00:05:14.740 I found that actually 95% of people who set out to achieve a goal don't achieve it. So that's where

00:05:21.500 this idea of learning about our habits, which is the only proven method to achieving long-term success,

00:05:28.040 came about. So I think a lot of us, I think most people have a lay understanding of what a habit is,

00:05:33.680 but how do researchers like you define a habit? Like how is it different from any other behavior?

00:05:39.540 Yeah. So a habit is a behavior that's repeated regularly in the same context and it's become

00:05:45.280 automatic. Habits are generally triggered rather than being consciously intentional. So behaviors,

00:05:52.460 unlike habits, they happen consciously and intentionally, but with habits, once habits are

00:05:59.720 established, they don't require much mental effort. They happen automatically, subconsciously, you know,

00:06:05.100 you don't have to deliberate over your habits. It's just something that habit happens without much

00:06:10.700 mental effort. Habits are the things that we do automatically. Behavies are the things we do

00:06:15.640 consciously or deliberately.

00:06:17.380 Okay. So just to recap there, the characteristics of a habit, there's repetition. There's a high

00:06:21.980 degree of automaticity. You don't have to think about it. And then there's a trigger of some sort

00:06:26.640 that will kick it, kickstart the habit. Okay. What's the dividing line between a habit and say

00:06:31.200 an addiction?

00:06:32.220 Yeah. The line between habits and addictions can blur, but a crucial difference is how much control we have

00:06:39.340 over them and their impact on our life. Habits can be neutral, they can be negative, or they can be

00:06:45.840 positive. And although it's not always easy, we can absolutely change any habit that we have in our

00:06:52.000 life. Addictions, on the other hand, are usually negative and harmful to our life. And they're

00:06:57.800 compulsive, they're driven by neurological dependence. Addictions essentially hijack our

00:07:04.400 brain's reward system. And it makes us feel like we can't live a happy life without having that substance

00:07:11.020 or the behavior that we're addicted to. Okay. So you know you have an addiction if it just disrupts

00:07:16.780 your life. Like if you can't work, you can't do daily functions, you have an addiction. I think

00:07:21.780 that's important to differentiate or really be specific about what an addiction is. I think we

00:07:26.600 throw that word around a little bit too easy. Like, oh, I'm addicted to cookies. Well, maybe, but

00:07:31.820 probably not. You just have the habit of, like you, eating cookies on the way home from work.

00:07:36.260 Yeah, that's right. And it's not sort of disrupting your life to a significant amount. You can

00:07:42.140 control it with enough intention and effort and consistency. You absolutely can. And that's

00:07:48.180 what separates the habit from the addiction. So you walk through the research or the science

00:07:53.600 of how we form habits. And you talk about there's three stages of habit formation. So what are those

00:07:58.700 three stages of forming a habit? Yeah. So the habit formation framework essentially outlines

00:08:04.640 the three stages are initiation, training, and maintenance. So we initiate a new behavior.

00:08:11.780 We train ourselves in that behavior through repeating it. And then we maintain that new

00:08:16.940 behavior through consistency. So essentially this is how we achieve goals. We decide on a

00:08:22.440 goal that we want to achieve. We take action towards that goal. So we do the things that we

00:08:27.040 need to do to achieve it. And then we continue to do that. So we maintain those behaviors so that

00:08:32.860 we can achieve that outcome. Theoretically, of course.

00:08:36.560 And you make an important point in the book is that you remind people that all habits at some point

00:08:41.280 began as an intentional act. And you said it's an important thing to understand in forming and

00:08:47.740 breaking habits. Why is that?

00:08:49.640 Yeah. You know, our habits tell a story about our life. I'm a really big believer of that because

00:08:54.760 once upon a time, our habits were intentional actions.

00:08:58.700 They are the things that we once chose to do. And it could be in an attempt to maybe achieve a goal

00:09:06.280 or suppress an uncomfortable emotion or, you know, reach some kind of desired outcome,

00:09:12.340 whether it's convenience or productivity or well-being. And I think it's really important

00:09:16.860 to know that because it helps us to identify, I guess, the chapters of our choices and our priorities,

00:09:23.600 like why we're doing the things that we're doing.

00:09:25.980 And I think once we understand our intentions for starting that behavior,

00:09:31.280 we can then reshape it. We can fulfill those desires in potentially a healthier way if that's

00:09:37.600 something that we want to do.

00:09:39.100 Yeah. It's a great reminder. You have some control over this. Like you're not a slave to your habits.

00:09:43.580 You can manipulate them if you want.

00:09:46.040 Yeah, that's right. And I think there's also a bit of self-compassion that can come to play. You know,

00:09:50.460 say that you're doing something,

00:09:52.060 let's say you're coming home and you're having a drink of alcohol every night and that's not

00:09:56.860 something that you want to keep doing. But if you were to look back and think, okay,

00:10:00.640 when did this start? What was going on in my life? What was my intentional reason for starting this?

00:10:07.320 You might see that it became a habit because you were trying to reduce stress or you were conforming

00:10:13.560 to social norms or there's all these reasons why we do things. And I think once we understand that,

00:10:19.500 we can have that self-compassion and go, okay, I was just really stressed at that time. That's why

00:10:23.380 I was doing this. It was an act of self-soothing, potentially not the best way to self-soothe

00:10:28.400 and reduce my stress, but that's where it came from. And I can now reduce stress in a healthier

00:10:34.560 and a healthier way.

00:10:36.980 You also talk about the habit loop. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are familiar with this idea,

00:10:41.180 but for those who aren't, what is the habit loop?

00:10:43.600 Yeah. So the habit loop is essentially the three ingredients that are found in

00:10:47.400 every habit, both good habits and otherwise. And they are a cue, a routine, and a reward.

00:10:54.040 So the cue, that's that trigger that we talked about. It's the reason why we do the habit.

00:10:59.120 And that cue could be the time of day. It could be the location that you're in. It could be what

00:11:04.980 you've just done beforehand. It could be how you're feeling emotionally or the people that you're

00:11:10.660 around. So all of our habits are cued by one of these five things. And then there's the routine.

00:11:18.260 That's the second ingredient. And the routine is the habit itself. And then there's the reward.

00:11:23.180 And the reward is the reason why you keep doing this habit. If the reward wasn't positive,

00:11:28.020 it wouldn't create this positive feedback loop for you to keep repeating the habit. So as an example,

00:11:34.100 let's say that you come home and the first thing you do when you get home is you eat a cookie.

00:11:37.680 And the very first time you do that, a mental link is created between getting home and eating

00:11:43.460 a cookie. So there's an actual physical neural pathway that's created in the brain. So getting

00:11:48.980 home is the trigger and eating a cookie becomes the routine. And the reward that you get is probably

00:11:55.400 the taste of the cookies. It's the little energy hit that you get or the dopamine. Now, the more you

00:12:01.100 repeat that, getting home, eating a cookie, getting home, eating a cookie, the stronger this link

00:12:06.140 becomes in your brain until eventually just the thought of getting home prompts you to want to

00:12:11.600 eat a cookie. And trying to do anything else becomes really hard because your brain's like,

00:12:16.760 well, when I get home, I eat a cookie and this is what I do. And that's how our habits are formed.

00:12:21.960 And that's essentially the habit loop.

00:12:23.820 Let's talk about cues. And you also call them triggers because this is a really important idea.

00:12:28.040 And you devote a lot of time to this. You mentioned that there are five types of triggers.

00:12:32.140 Can you summarize those again for us? Yeah. So experiments have shown that almost

00:12:36.220 all our habits fit into one of five categories and it could be more than one at a time. So

00:12:41.340 the first one is time, for example, like waking up or midday. The second one is location. So it could

00:12:48.340 be like the kitchen or the bedroom. The third one is preceding event or action. So what you've just

00:12:53.840 done beforehand could be something like brushing your teeth or getting home from work. Number four is

00:12:59.620 emotional state. This could be like stress, loneliness, happiness. And then finally,

00:13:04.680 your social situation, like meeting friends, the people that you're around or your colleagues.

00:13:10.500 So our habits are going to be triggered by one or more of these five triggers.

00:13:16.340 All right. So common triggers, time, location. We got proceeding of interaction, emotional state,

00:13:21.860 and social situation. Another one I've heard of that's rare. I've heard this with some people who are

00:13:29.180 recovering from drug addiction. We're going from habit to addiction, but they're kind of similar.

00:13:34.940 Smell. I guess there's certain drugs that you make that use bleach, I believe. And some people,

00:13:41.580 when they smell bleach, they get a sudden urge for a fix.

00:13:45.680 Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense because our smell is like the quickest way into our memories.

00:13:53.180 And like just a whiff of a familiar smell can trigger a memory from childhood. And I think

00:13:59.820 that probably falls into that emotional state. It creates an emotion within us that makes us crave

00:14:06.260 that thing, you know, like the drug or whatever it is that we're craving. That's really interesting

00:14:11.580 though.

00:14:12.220 Okay. So we've covered the three basic parts of the habit loop. There's cue, routine, and reward.

00:14:18.220 And these components are part of both bad habits and good habits. And we can tinker with them in

00:14:24.360 different ways to either form a good habit or break a bad habit. Let's talk about forming good

00:14:29.800 habits first. First off, what types of behaviors are we more likely to find success with as far as

00:14:37.360 turning them into habits?

00:14:39.340 The complexity of the behavior is going to play a really big role in whether something becomes a

00:14:45.200 habit or not. So more complex behaviors take a lot longer to develop compared with simple behaviors.

00:14:51.700 So one of the latest studies showed that they had two groups of people, one group they asked to wash 0.98

00:14:56.960 their hands every day and the other group they asked to go to the gym every day. And the hand

00:15:02.580 washers took only two weeks to develop that habit. Whereas the gym goers took seven months to develop

00:15:09.580 the habit. And that's because going to the gym is a lot more of a complex behavior compared with

00:15:14.800 washing your hands. Washing your hands is something that you can do at any time. You know, there's

00:15:19.660 mostly a sink around. It doesn't take a whole lot of motivation. It takes two minutes to do

00:15:24.760 compared with going to the gym that requires motivation, getting changed, you know, getting in

00:15:30.700 your car. And so simple behaviors are much more likely to become habitual. Now you as a person,

00:15:37.340 you need to want to do the habit. It's really hard to develop a habit from something that you don't

00:15:43.540 care much about. You don't value a lot. You don't see as going to benefit your life or other people's

00:15:50.340 lives. It's really hard to develop that into a habit because there's no intrinsic motivation.

00:15:54.900 There's no reason for you to want to keep pushing and making it automatic.

00:16:01.060 You have a chapter going to this idea of keeping it simple, of using micro habits to build larger,

00:16:07.720 maybe more complex habits. Walk us through that idea of micro habits.

00:16:12.600 Yeah. So micro habits is a term that I've created, which essentially they're just tiny manageable

00:16:17.780 behaviors that serve as the building blocks for larger habits. And they're really powerful because

00:16:24.240 they're achievable and they minimize resistance. So for example, you know, doing one pushup a day or

00:16:31.100 drinking a glass of water after waking up can be the start of a larger habit. Their simplicity builds

00:16:39.020 consistency, which is a key to long-term success. So a couple of examples I give in a book is, you

00:16:45.680 know, if your goal is healthy eating, it's much easier to have a goal of eating a piece of fruit every

00:16:52.220 day compared with trying to overhaul your entire diet. Or if your goal is to do more exercise, it's much

00:16:58.400 easier to have a goal of walking for 15 minutes a day than to try to run a marathon. Meditating,

00:17:05.740 you know, start with just two minutes. A lot of times the very first step is the hardest to

00:17:10.720 everything. You know, the first gym session, the first healthy meal, like the first everything is

00:17:16.320 the hardest. And I'm a big believer that if we can reduce the barriers to entry, if we can make that

00:17:21.720 first step easy and enticing and rewarding, then we're much more likely to do it. And then we can

00:17:30.220 build on that. Okay. So when you're treating your habits, start off simple, keep it small. I know BJ

00:17:37.000 Fogg with his tiny habits. One thing he talks about if like flossing your teeth is a habit you want to

00:17:42.040 start. He says, just start off flossing just one tooth. Like you don't have to floss all your teeth,

00:17:46.400 just do one tooth. And then gradually over time, add more teeth, but you don't have to do it all at

00:17:51.600 once because you're probably not going to be successful with that. Yeah. And what you might

00:17:57.260 find is when you floss one tooth, you're like, oh, I may as well do the rest. Like I've already pulled

00:18:01.140 the floss out and I'm here doing it. You know, I always say to people, create the habit of getting

00:18:05.960 to the gym rather than creating the habit of exercising. If you create the habit of getting to

00:18:10.940 the gym, the rest is going to happen. You're not going to get to the gym and be like, okay, I'm done.

00:18:15.300 I'm going to go home now. You're very likely to go in and do a workout, even if it's a small

00:18:20.140 workout, but it's better than nothing at all. Yeah. You talk about in the book that you've had

00:18:24.180 days where you didn't feel like working out because you're tired, but you still got up and

00:18:28.860 you went to the gym and then you drove home. Oh yeah. I have done that. That's right. That's

00:18:35.380 why this time I was really sick actually. And I was just starting at a new gym. It was a powerlifting

00:18:40.740 gym. I don't powerlift anymore. Just like you, Brett, we're both recovering powerlifting

00:18:45.280 and I wanted to continue the momentum of getting up and going to the gym at this specific time

00:18:53.120 because I had a coach and there was sort of a schedule with it. And this one morning I was

00:18:56.900 really sick and I was like, no, I'm still going to get up. I'm going to get dressed, drive to the

00:19:01.520 gym and I'm going to come straight home. And the really cool thing is once I got better after a week

00:19:06.720 or two, I didn't have to restart my habit of getting to the gym because I was already in it.

00:19:12.260 Yeah. I've done that throughout my lifting career. We'll call it that. I'll have days where

00:19:18.480 I still do this just to maintain the habit of exercise. That's the most, most important habit

00:19:22.420 to me. It's not my PRs aren't that important to me, but like just maintaining that habit of regular

00:19:27.260 exercise. So I'll have days where I don't have time to do a full workout that I have planned.

00:19:32.100 So I'll just get what I can get done in 15 minutes. That might mean I just do a single set of

00:19:37.480 every exercise and that's it. Or if I'm just feeling beat up and tired and I'm like, I really

00:19:42.760 don't want to lift today. I'll go for a walk instead at my regular workout time. I'm just

00:19:47.440 trying to remind my mind and my body. It's like at this time, you're going to move your body in an

00:19:52.120 intentional way. And so when I, once I feel better, I have more time. It's not a problem to keep doing

00:19:57.480 the regular programming. Yeah. It's so powerful to do that because that's exactly what you're doing.

00:20:02.100 You're reinforcing those neural pathways that at this time I move my body. So yeah, that's awesome.

00:20:07.840 And that will really solidify the habit moving forward even more. So with the behavior or the

00:20:12.840 routine, keep it simple. That's going to be your best bet in creating a habit. Let's talk about

00:20:18.380 triggers. You talk about different ways we can supercharge our triggers. So make them more powerful.

00:20:22.860 So if we're wanting to design a positive habit, what are some things we can do with those common

00:20:27.740 triggers to make them even more powerful? So what are those ways we can supercharge a trigger?

00:20:32.100 So you want triggers to be really specific. So instead of, for example, saying, you know,

00:20:37.120 after dinner, you might say when I'm finished eating, because after dinner can be any time,

00:20:43.320 you know, from the time you finished dinner to the next day, whereas after finishing eating

00:20:48.760 is much more specific. So the other one is being salient. So making your triggers really obvious.

00:20:54.560 So you could say something like when I make a coffee, for example, in the morning and having that

00:21:01.300 like really clearly, that's obviously what you're doing. Another one with triggers is something

00:21:05.840 that you want it to be consistent, something that you encounter regularly, consistently,

00:21:11.700 inevitably would be really good. So something that you know is going to happen, like the time of day,

00:21:16.600 that's going to really supercharge your triggers compared to saying like,

00:21:21.000 at Christmas, I'm going to do this because that doesn't happen a lot. You know,

00:21:25.120 it only happens once a year.

00:21:26.440 Okay. Then you also recommend finding triggers that are automatic. What does that look like?

00:21:31.260 Yeah. So something automatic could be like when I'm finished my breakfast or when my alarm goes

00:21:36.880 off in the morning, I'm going to do this. So they're automatic. They don't require you to put

00:21:41.360 in a whole lot of effort. It's just something that you know is going to happen.

00:21:45.300 Okay. Let's talk about rewards a bit. Is there anything we can do with the reward aspect of the

00:21:49.540 habit loop to help form good habits?

00:21:52.260 Yeah. You know, one of the best rewards is our emotional rewards. It's just the feeling

00:21:58.060 of satisfaction, of accomplishment, of being proud of yourself. A lot of times people will

00:22:04.000 say things like, you know, if you've done a workout, then go buy yourself a new outfit.

00:22:09.480 And that actually doesn't work because we need the reward instantly. We need to feel that satisfaction,

00:22:16.420 this sense of accomplishment straight away for that habit loop to become reinforced.

00:22:22.900 And so let's say you've done a workout when you really didn't feel like doing it,

00:22:26.320 or you're creating a new habit of working out. Once you get to the gym, take a moment to celebrate

00:22:33.020 your decision to do that. Celebrate the fact that you're there. And it's just a silent moment to

00:22:38.200 yourself when you're just like, I'm proud of you, like well done for being here. And that's going to

00:22:43.060 be such a powerful reward. The other thing that you can do, which I highly recommend is using a

00:22:48.000 habit tracker. So every time you perform the habit that you had intended to do, you just give

00:22:54.200 yourself a little tick for doing that habit. And you know, like with children, we give them a gold

00:22:59.360 star, say for doing their chores and they feel really good for doing that. And they're motivated

00:23:04.440 to want to do it again. We don't grow out of that reward learning as adults. So when we give

00:23:10.140 ourselves a tick on a habit tracker, it sends dopamine through our brain and that feels good

00:23:15.420 and rewarding and pleasurable. And that tells our brains like, Hey, that felt really good. We should

00:23:21.440 totally do this again. And it reinforces the habit. I think that's a good point. I've tried rewarding

00:23:27.360 myself with like physical things like, Oh, if I do this thing, yeah, it doesn't work because you can

00:23:32.980 only reward yourself once with, you know, say if you want to buy yourself a new pair of shoes,

00:23:36.700 right? Like lifting shoes, but what's your reward going to be all the other times you'd complete at

00:23:42.800 the habit loop, you know, like each time you do your workout because there's just too much of a

00:23:46.400 delay between the behavior and the reward. Yeah, exactly. Right. And just accept that the reward

00:23:51.860 might be endorphins from working out. It could be dopamine. It could be a hit of serotonin, but just

00:23:56.600 sit and notice those moments. I actually think buying the lifting shoes, getting the new outfit for

00:24:03.120 working out should be done before you work out because that's going to motivate you to go

00:24:07.920 rather than trying to do it afterwards. So let's put all we've talked about together

00:24:13.360 and how we can form an action plan for creating new positive habits. We've been talking about

00:24:18.600 working out. Let's talk about something else. I know a lot of people, maybe they want to read more

00:24:21.960 instead of scrolling more on social media at nighttime. So walk us through an example of say,

00:24:27.860 someone who wants to read more, what can they do using these things we've talked about of the habit

00:24:33.540 loop, the habit formation process to become a regular nightly reader? Yeah. So start really

00:24:39.880 small, you know, find the book that you want to read and maybe set out just to read one page. If

00:24:44.200 you're new to reading, I would also say if your phone is around, it's really hard to put that battle,

00:24:51.740 the head to head battle between the phone and the book, because most likely your phone will win.

00:24:56.080 It gives you way more dopamine. There's a lot more stimulation in a phone compared with

00:25:00.540 a black and white book. So I would put your phone somewhere where you can't reach it from bed.

00:25:06.640 I charge my phone like in my ensuite or in the lounge room even, and then have your book there

00:25:12.160 and ready. So start small, set that micro goal, like reading one page and set the trigger. So you might

00:25:19.400 say, when I get in bed in the evenings, I'm going to read one page. And then once you've done that,

00:25:25.200 check it off on your habit tracker and that's, you know, you're created the habit loop. So that's

00:25:30.740 going to be you celebrating your win, which is the reward. And it's just then all about consistency.

00:25:37.260 So focus on consistency over intensity and then gradually build. So once one page becomes

00:25:44.060 natural and easy and something you don't have to remind yourself to do, then you can start with

00:25:50.140 two pages and then gradually building from there.

00:25:53.120 Okay. That's simple enough. So it's simple. It might not be easy to put in place. I think the

00:25:57.380 hard part is just that training part of doing it over and over and over again, night after night

00:26:02.440 without fail. Cause that's, that's what you got to do if you want to create that habit.

00:26:06.500 Yeah, that's right. But you know, I think when you have in the front of your mind, why you're doing

00:26:12.140 this, why it's valuable to you, why it's important to you, then the motivation to keep going becomes

00:26:19.140 easier to access. We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:26:26.040 And now back to the show. Do we know how long it takes to form a new habit? Like how long do we have

00:26:31.720 to do this training process, right? Of reading a page every night before it just becomes a habit?

00:26:36.680 Yeah, there's a really wide range, which I hate saying, you know, I hate saying it depends,

00:26:42.120 but it does depend. You know, most people have heard that it takes 21 days or 28 days to create

00:26:47.960 a new habit. And that is absolutely false. There's no evidence to prove that at all.

00:26:52.620 The research shows that can take anywhere from two weeks to up to a year to create a new habit

00:26:58.860 with an average time, like very rough average being about 66 days or 10 weeks. But again,

00:27:06.680 those simpler habits are going to develop much quicker. The stronger your intention,

00:27:12.860 the quicker the habit will develop as well. Yeah. That 21 day thing. I'm sure people have

00:27:16.940 heard that one. The funny thing about that, that came from a book written by a plastic surgeon,

00:27:21.960 I think like in the 1960s called Psycho-Cybernetics. It was kind of like a self-improvement book,

00:27:27.280 but I think you mentioned like the 21 day habit thing in that book.

00:27:30.640 Yeah. So he was a facial reconstruction surgeon and he found that when his patients would look in

00:27:38.060 the mirror after they've had facial reconstruction, it took three to four weeks for them not to get a

00:27:43.440 shock when they looked at their face, their new face. So he was like, okay, it must take 21 days

00:27:48.800 for neuroplasticity, which is, you know, changes in the brain. That means it takes 21 days to change a

00:27:54.540 habit. But really, it is such a loose connection and it's been debunked by science ever since then.

00:28:02.400 So you mentioned some factors that can influence how long it takes for a habit to form. One of them

00:28:06.840 is this, the intention you're putting into the habit formation. Any other factors that might

00:28:11.040 contribute to how long or how short a habit takes to form? Yeah. So another factor in a really

00:28:17.500 common one is stress. So the more stressed we are, the less we are likely to create a new habit.

00:28:23.940 You know, our prefrontal cortex or our logical brain isn't as active. We're more likely to fall

00:28:30.100 into unwanted habits because it's really hard to find the motivation and I guess the oomph to want

00:28:37.120 to create new, healthy habits. So stress is going to be a factor. How habitual you are as a person

00:28:44.080 also plays a role. You know, I'm not naturally a very habitual person, which is quite ironic for a

00:28:50.200 habit researcher. I prefer spontaneity, flexibility. No two days are the same in my life. And so it takes

00:28:58.180 me a little bit longer potentially to create new habits, but I can break old habits quite easily

00:29:04.240 compared with my husband, who is very habitual. Like the man can easily eat the same thing every

00:29:10.800 single day and doesn't bother him at all. He can create new habits a lot quicker,

00:29:15.040 but struggles to break old habits as quickly as I do. The other thing is consistency. You know,

00:29:21.960 how consistent are you with performing your new habit? The more you do it, the more habitual it's

00:29:27.420 going to become and the quicker it's going to develop into a habit. So making sure that your

00:29:32.000 environment is conducive and supportive to your new habit, that you're encountering the trigger

00:29:38.720 trigger as often as possible and that you're doing the habit every time you encounter the trigger.

00:29:43.900 Yeah. That idea of some people are just more habitual than others. I've seen that in my own

00:29:48.340 life. I'm a very habitual person. I eat the same thing pretty much breakfast, lunch, and then dinners,

00:29:54.600 whatever we have as a family. But I've been eating the same thing for like the past seven years.

00:29:59.360 And it's funny, my dad is like that too. Like he's been eating special K and drinking Folgers coffee

00:30:04.980 probably for 40 years. And I picked that up from him. You highlight some research. This is

00:30:12.080 speculative. It's burgeoning that men and women might differ in their habit formation. How do they

00:30:17.660 differ? Yeah. I mean, men and women are motivated and triggered by different things. For example,

00:30:23.200 men are more triggered by external or environmental cues like images or, you know, matching other people's

00:30:30.900 behavior. Whereas women tend to be more triggered by internal or emotional cues, like how stressed they 0.99

00:30:37.140 are, how much responsibility they have in their families and how much capacity they have to create

00:30:44.700 new habits. So it is speculative. There's research is still emerging, but we are definitely seeing that

00:30:50.380 there is a difference. In my own practice, anecdotally, I found that men develop habits a lot quicker

00:30:56.520 than women. And I think because there is less of those emotional fluctuations that trigger behavior

00:31:03.600 compared with women. You know, men can be a lot more militant. I think if I was to be overgeneralizing

00:31:10.160 in my comment compared with women who are a little bit more fluid generally from their day-to-day life. 0.97

00:31:17.800 We've talked about how do you form a good habit. You also talk about that sometimes even good habits

00:31:21.940 can be detrimental. How so? Yeah. I mean, there's a theory called this habituation where we're too

00:31:29.900 habitual. Your good habits can become rigid, making us sort of less adaptable in new situations. So,

00:31:37.940 you know, for example, a really strict workout routine might cause anxiety if it's disrupted.

00:31:43.340 Whereas balance comes from allowing flexibility and thinking of habits as tools rather than rules.

00:31:49.800 And then maybe periodically reassessing whether a habit is actually serving your current goals

00:31:55.300 and then adapting it accordingly. You know, I just came back from holiday and while we were away,

00:32:01.140 we were in the Philippines for a couple of weeks and then went to Thailand. And our time in the

00:32:05.160 Philippines, there was a power outage in the entire island. We had no power. So there was no running

00:32:12.860 water, no electricity, no fans, no air con, nothing. And for the 10 days that we were there, it was really

00:32:20.500 challenging to want to work out because it was so hot and super humid. And the gym that we'd signed up

00:32:26.800 to had also closed because it was just like, there's no lights, there was nothing. And so we had to just

00:32:33.120 adapt. We went surfing and walking, we went on little hikes. And yeah, it wasn't what we planned and

00:32:40.140 scheduled, but we did what we can with the resources that we had. And I think if we're too rigid,

00:32:48.080 then our good habits can become detrimental because that creates anxiety. So that flexibility point is

00:32:54.340 really important for our wellbeing. Yeah. You see that with exercise. You kind of talked about that,

00:32:59.040 you know, both you and I, we had moments in our programming or training where we couldn't do the

00:33:04.580 full workout that we had programmed. If you're really rigid with that, you're like, well, if I

00:33:10.140 can't do the full workout, then I just shouldn't do anything at all. But if you have a little bit

00:33:13.640 of flexibility with that, it's okay. What's the bigger goal I'm trying to accomplish here? Okay.

00:33:17.600 Exercise. Well, I can do something else besides, you know, three sets of five on deadlift, squat,

00:33:22.540 and bench, and I'll be okay. Yeah, absolutely. And I see this all or nothing mentality so much,

00:33:27.900 especially with our diet. You know, if I can't eat perfectly, then I'm just going to blow out and I'll eat

00:33:33.320 all the keg and all the ice cream and all the things. And it's actually so much better to be

00:33:37.460 flexible in your approach and enjoy everything in moderation. And then just keep living your life

00:33:43.740 that way instead of having this all or nothing mentality, which just doesn't work long-term.

00:33:49.800 Let's talk about breaking bad habits. So how can we use this knowledge of habits to

00:33:55.600 break bad habits we don't want? When you think of the habit loop as key routine reward,

00:34:01.920 every single habit is triggered by something. So if we can disrupt that key routine reward loop,

00:34:09.920 then we can break our habits. So there's two ways that we can do that. We can either replace the old

00:34:15.680 habit with a new habit that we want to do, or if it's possible, we can try to avoid that trigger

00:34:22.200 altogether. So often the one thing that we get wrong when we're trying to change our behavior is we focus

00:34:28.160 so much on trying to break the habit. We will say, okay, I'm going to stop drinking or I'm going to

00:34:33.040 stop eating cookies. Like those things are dead to me. And then we get home and the first thing that we

00:34:38.580 do is we go and eat a cookie or, you know, grab a bottle of alcohol. And the reason is that as soon

00:34:45.000 as our brain encounters the trigger for the habit that we have, it's already started firing the necessary

00:34:52.600 neural pathways to take the next action. That key routine reward, that habit loop happens in a split

00:34:59.760 second and we're not even aware that it's happening. And so it's really hard for us to encounter a

00:35:05.320 trigger and then try to stop doing the habit. It's so much easier to understand what the trigger is,

00:35:13.740 preempt the trigger. So you might say, when I get home today, I'm really going to feel like having

00:35:18.280 some alcohol, but this is what I'm going to do instead. And you can preempt the craving and try

00:35:24.080 to interject with a new behavior or change your environment or create barriers to make those

00:35:31.340 unwanted habits harder to do. And then it's so much more empowering and much easier to break habits that

00:35:37.160 way than, you know, trying to do it the other way. It's much easier to reverse engineer the process.

00:35:42.740 So if, for example, you know, driving past a fast food chain triggers you to go in there and order

00:35:49.920 a Big Mac combo, then if it's possible to drive a different way, do that. And that's going to break

00:35:56.320 that habit of, you know, eating fast food. If you can't change the trigger, you know, if driving a

00:36:03.280 different way isn't a possibility, then it's important to preempt it. You would say, okay, when I drive past

00:36:08.700 this fast food chain, I'm going to be tempted to go inside, but this is what I'm going to do instead.

00:36:12.740 And you might, you know, pack something, you might order something smaller or, you know,

00:36:17.720 whatever it is. And it's really just about creating barriers for the habits that you want to break

00:36:23.520 and having really strong intentions. The stronger our intention, the weaker our habits become.

00:36:30.560 You also talk about, we can do things with the reward aspect to break bad habits.

00:36:34.440 What are some things we can do to manipulate the reward to break a bad habit?

00:36:38.400 Yeah. I actually, I remember a story I wrote in the book about our, I guess our perception of

00:36:46.240 certain rewards. Let's say you smoke, for example, and you really love how the cigarette makes you

00:36:52.320 feel. You love the nicotine hit that you get, the dopamine hit, and it feels awesome. And so your mind

00:36:57.920 is telling you, I really love this habit. So you, you've got this big reward value from it.

00:37:04.020 What they did in a study recently, actually, is they got smokers to mindfully smoke. So they got

00:37:10.360 them to have a cigarette and then describe exactly what it tasted like, what it felt like afterwards.

00:37:15.820 And the descriptions that they gave were things like, oh, this tastes like ash, like tar, like you're

00:37:22.600 on a tarmac at an airport and it just tastes disgusting. And once their reward value, like their perception

00:37:29.760 of the reward of that cigarette reduced, every single one of those study participants stopped

00:37:35.480 smoking. And it's because they no longer felt like it was a rewarding experience. The reward they thought

00:37:41.600 they got from it wasn't actually there once they brought mindfulness into it. And it's a really

00:37:46.540 interesting diet. I think it's called the yuck diet. It's not a technical term, certainly not a

00:37:51.180 scientific term, but some guy invented it where essentially he started thinking of things like

00:37:56.120 spaghetti is like worms and chocolates, like mud and cheeses, like mucus. And once he started to

00:38:03.000 think of food like that, and look, not that I'm condoning that because I think all food is

00:38:07.840 acceptable, but for him, he had a real, I guess he was sort of out of control with some of these foods.

00:38:12.920 But once he started to see those foods as less valuable, less rewarding, less enticing,

00:38:17.980 he no longer craved them and was able to eat them with a lot more like control. And he, you know,

00:38:27.240 lost a bunch of weight and it was a really cool story. But the reward that you place on something

00:38:31.600 is going to impact directly how much you crave that thing. So just, if we can change our perspective

00:38:38.000 on things, I think it can be one of the most empowering things we can do with breaking our

00:38:43.340 unwanted habits. Yeah. Judson Brewer, we've had him on the podcast. He talks about this,

00:38:47.380 he calls it disenchanting bad habits. So yeah, whenever you experience that reward from,

00:38:52.420 it could be food or I think he does like smoking cessation, you work to disenchant the reward.

00:38:57.780 And I've actually used this idea to quit looking at Instagram because, you know, you're bored. And so

00:39:03.400 you're pulled into just opening up the app and just scrolling through. But every time you do,

00:39:07.920 you're like, man, there's nothing here. Like, why am I wasting my time with this? And you almost feel a

00:39:13.100 little bit of disgust. And so to disenchant the habit, you really have to lean into that feeling

00:39:18.180 and really focus and think about the fact that there's nothing interesting here and you wouldn't

00:39:23.800 have missed anything if you hadn't checked it. So let's use kind of a practical example to walk

00:39:28.000 people through how to break a bad habit, what we've been talking about. I know a lot of people

00:39:31.860 in January, they take part in something that's called dry January, which is, you know, you don't drink

00:39:37.040 alcohol during January. So how could we use the things we've talked about in breaking bad habits

00:39:42.800 to be successful at dry January? Yeah. I mean, again, looking at the habit loop is like,

00:39:47.780 what are the triggers? And try to change the environment as much as possible. So firstly,

00:39:53.380 don't have alcohol in your house, maybe stock your house filled with non-alcoholic alternatives instead.

00:40:00.120 I worked with someone who would come home and the first thing that she did was she'd pour a glass of 0.71

00:40:04.840 wine and that was like her habit. You know, not coming home isn't an option. She's got to go home

00:40:10.420 every day. And so what we did is we moved all the wine bottles into a really hard to reach shelf

00:40:16.580 in the garage where she needed to get a step ladder to access it. We moved all her wine glasses to a 0.87

00:40:24.100 different cupboard and then we put all her tea mugs where the wine glasses were. So the first couple of

00:40:29.960 days she came home, she opened the cupboard where the wine glasses used to be only to find all these

00:40:36.740 tea mugs. And that's what was triggering her memory that she's actually here to change this

00:40:41.880 wine drinking habit. And so then she'd make herself a tea and she felt the reward and the satisfaction of

00:40:47.880 doing something that was healthier for her body. So think of ways that you can create barriers for 0.65

00:40:53.840 drinking. Definitely tell your friends so that you've got that accountability and that

00:40:58.620 they're not tempting you where, you know, social, social events that require alcohol and keep that

00:41:05.020 habit tracker. So every day you successfully go without drinking alcohol, make sure you give

00:41:10.260 yourself a tick and be proud of yourself for another day down. I love it. You devote a lot of time in the

00:41:16.520 book to motivation. How do psychologists define motivation? Psychologists define motivation as the

00:41:22.480 reason that we initiate, choose or persist in specific actions in specific circumstances. So

00:41:30.360 simply put, motivation is the reason that we act in a particular way.

00:41:35.500 What's the interplay between motivation and habit formation? Like why did you spend so much time

00:41:38.800 talking about motivation in a book about habits? I think whenever we're looking at changing our

00:41:44.140 behavior, I think one of the biggest things that people say is I just don't have motivation. I don't have

00:41:48.980 it in me. It's like, it's almost like we're waiting for motivation to come, but it's such a myth because

00:41:55.360 action is a prerequisite to motivation. Motivation comes as a result of action. Like how often do you

00:42:02.520 absolutely not feel like doing something and you take the first step anyway, and then you're in it,

00:42:08.320 like you're motivated to do it and you complete the task and you actually feel quite good about it.

00:42:12.740 I definitely have that with things like, you know, decluttering something or, you know, I'm packing my

00:42:19.780 suitcase right now. I'm like, oh, I just don't feel like doing it. But as soon as I get started,

00:42:24.140 the rest flows and it becomes so much easier. Motivation kickstarts habit formation. We have

00:42:31.360 to feel motivated the very beginning of creating a new habit. But once that habit has a bit of momentum

00:42:38.860 and automaticity, then consistency is what sustains it. We no longer need motivation for our habits.

00:42:46.120 It's like, no matter how tired, stressed, fatigued you are, you'll always put your seatbelt on in the

00:42:52.000 car because it's something that you do habitually. You don't need to be motivated to do it. And that's

00:42:57.340 a real power of habits, but we do need motivation just at the very start when we're creating a new habit.

00:43:04.060 So you mentioned, okay, just do the thing and the motivation will follow. Any other things we can do

00:43:09.500 to take control of our motivation so we're more likely to achieve our habit goals, especially for

00:43:13.880 those habits that seem harder to make or break? Yeah. I mean, break those ones down. Definitely

00:43:19.700 make it a lot more enticing for yourself. Like find ways for you to want to do it. You know,

00:43:25.240 let's say like you get to listen to your favorite music as you're doing the task or you get to do it

00:43:31.720 with a friend or the other thing to do is really see progress. Like make sure that you're measuring

00:43:37.940 progress if you can, even if your progress is just seeing how often you're doing the thing because

00:43:44.420 motivation grows as you see progress. So that build that momentum nice and early, but just focus on,

00:43:51.820 yeah, starting small and know that the motivation will come, like trust that it'll come.

00:43:57.860 Something that's going to happen in the habit formation journey is you're going to have

00:44:02.340 setbacks. You know, you're doing great. Then you have a day where you don't do the thing and then

00:44:06.940 a day turns into two and you're just like, oh, yeah, I failed again at starting a habit or you're

00:44:12.440 trying to break a habit and you have a setback. What do you recommend people do to deal with setbacks

00:44:17.680 in their habit goals? I mean, I think the first thing to know is that setbacks are a part of the

00:44:23.340 process. It's not if you have a setback, it's when you have a setback, no matter how disciplined or

00:44:30.140 motivated you are. It's part of the process. And, you know, the most successful people in the world

00:44:36.020 also have setbacks. And what differentiates them from the people that go and fall off the wagon

00:44:42.000 entirely is the successful people will get up and they'll do so quickly after a setback. And rather

00:44:48.180 than seeing those setbacks as failures, they view them as data. It's like what triggered this lapse?

00:44:54.540 How can I adjust moving forward? Do I need to change my cue or my trigger? Do I need to change

00:45:00.680 the intensity of this habit? Really focus on your next action rather than dwelling on the setback.

00:45:07.680 And the most important thing is going to be self-compassion. People who are kind to themselves

00:45:13.240 after a setback are so much more likely to bounce back quickly and like to allow themselves to make

00:45:20.120 errors and make mistakes and just jump back on the horse and keep going.

00:45:25.320 Yeah, that self-compassion component, I found that it's really important in any behavior change or goal

00:45:30.960 pursuit that you have. I think we, a lot of us have this idea that, well, you got to really beat

00:45:36.680 yourself up and you got to be a drill sergeant. And so if you fail, you got to just really,

00:45:42.000 you know, flagellate in order to get back on the horse. And the research actually says that actually

00:45:47.640 doesn't work. It's better just to be a little kinder to yourself.

00:45:51.620 Yeah. And I know, and it sounds counterproductive and counterintuitive, but you're right. That is

00:45:56.020 exactly what the research shows over and over again. We're so much more,

00:45:59.900 are going to be much more successful if we can practice self-compassion than self-criticism.

00:46:05.160 And I think the problem is people have this, I think especially men have the wrong idea of what

00:46:09.440 self-compassion looks like. They kind of think it looks soft and, you know, weak, but it's not the

00:46:15.720 way I think of self-compassion is, you know, you've had a coach, I have a barbell coach,

00:46:20.400 like they show compassion to me. It's not like they're like, Oh, Brad, it's okay. You're going

00:46:25.340 to be fine. You know, he'll be really upfront with me and saying, Hey, yeah, that was tough. You

00:46:28.800 didn't make it. That's okay though. Get back to your workout the next time and it'll be fine. It's not

00:46:33.320 like you're not treating yourself like a little kid who needs their boo-boo kissed. You're just

00:46:37.240 not beating yourself up. Exactly right. Yeah. And it is. And it's so powerful. And there's a

00:46:43.040 really awesome book by Dr. Kristen Neff called Self-Compassion. And I recommend everyone read

00:46:48.240 it. It's a real game changer for any person who struggles in this space. Cause I don't think it

00:46:54.560 comes naturally for us to practice self-compassion. I think there are a lot of misconceptions around it,

00:46:59.160 especially with men, like you mentioned, Brett. So I think it's something like we can all practice

00:47:03.840 and do a little bit better in that space. It really is a powerful tool.

00:47:08.080 Well, Gina, is there anything else we haven't talked about on habits that you think would be

00:47:12.120 really useful for people to hear about in order to be more successful with their habit goals this year?

00:47:16.980 I mean, I think we've covered so much, but one thing I'd add is that you're not stuck with your

00:47:21.340 brain, no matter how old you are, no matter how long you've been doing the habit, no matter how stuck

00:47:27.540 you feel. All of our brains, by virtue of neuroplasticity, are able to be rewired. You

00:47:34.340 can rewire your brain. All you need is consistency, determination, persistence, and the right tools.

00:47:40.340 So just know that you absolutely can change any habit that you have.

00:47:45.360 Well, Gina, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:47:48.140 and your work?

00:47:49.060 Thanks, Brett. I've loved chatting to you. Well, you can find my book and my work on my website,

00:47:53.820 along with free resources. I've got a free habit change masterclass. There's free habit

00:47:59.320 trackers on there. You can also access my online courses and follow on social media for tips on

00:48:06.180 rewiring your brain. And all the links are at drginacleo.com.

00:48:11.460 Fantastic. Well, Gina, Cleo, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:48:14.120 Thanks, Brett. Love chatting with you.

00:48:17.400 My guest here was Gina Cleo. She's the author of the book, The Habit Revolution. It's available

00:48:20.640 on amazon.com. You can find more information about her work at our website,

00:48:23.660 drginacleo.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash habit, where you find links to

00:48:28.360 resources where we delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM

00:48:39.620 podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you find our podcast

00:48:43.080 archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much

00:48:46.540 anything you think of. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute

00:48:50.220 to just read up a podcast or Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that,

00:48:53.660 already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would

00:48:57.420 think we've got something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next

00:49:01.140 time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to not listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into

00:49:05.380 action.

The Art of Manliness - December 30, 2024

How to Hack the Habit Loop to Build a Better Life

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript