How to Hack the Habit Loop to Build a Better Life
Episode Stats
Summary
When the Art of Manly's podcast started in 2009, we offered listeners one episode per week. Later, we expanded to two episodes weekly. Starting this year, in 2025, we'll be returning to publishing just one episode a week.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Hey, this is Brett. Before we get to today's show, I have an announcement.
00:00:03.220
When the Art of Manly's podcast started in 2009, we offered listeners one episode per week.
00:00:08.340
Later, we expanded to two episodes weekly. Starting this year in 2025, we'll be returning
00:00:13.300
to publishing just one episode a week. There are two big reasons we decided to do this.
00:00:18.380
First, we want to continue to be highly selective in choosing guests. We've always been highly
00:00:22.680
selective in choosing guests to have on the show. Looking for people with interesting,
00:00:26.300
unique, edifying, and useful ideas who are able to express those ideas articulately.
00:00:31.180
The interviews almost always center on an author and their book. And while there are endless so-so
00:00:34.980
books and guests out there, we're not looking for so-so. We're looking for great. Now, with over
00:00:39.920
a thousand books read and a thousand episodes recorded, we've hosted some of the best thinkers
00:00:43.960
multiple times, covered hundreds of subjects multiple times, and already highlighted many,
00:00:49.140
many of the best books out there. Subsequently, it's become harder and harder to maintain our
00:00:53.320
standard of guest selection, define topics we haven't already done and done well, and to book
00:00:57.880
folks who have something fresh and worthwhile to say. We've never wanted to find ourselves in a
00:01:02.040
position where we have to book someone we only think is so-so simply to fulfill a contractually
00:01:06.020
obligated slot on the calendar. Moving to one episode a week ensures that we can continue to
00:01:10.520
maintain our standards of selection and only offer our listeners episodes that are truly valuable.
00:01:15.200
Each week, there'll be an episode that is definitely worth listening to. The trend these days,
00:01:19.340
of course, is for podcasts to add more and more episodes and even spinoff shows in order to
00:01:23.200
maximize downloads and thus revenue. But quality has always mattered more to us than earnings.
00:01:28.200
The second reason we're moving to one episode a week is that it allows us to spend more time on
00:01:32.020
our first love, writing. This shift isn't just about doing less. It's about making room for
00:01:37.480
something that both Kate and I have had the itch to do more of in the past few years,
00:01:41.200
deep, thoughtful writing. Before the AOM podcast was a twice-a-week show, we were able to write
00:01:46.560
longer-form articles, which we really enjoyed. We haven't had much time for that since,
00:01:50.540
and we miss it. We'll be using the time that opens up for moving to one podcast episode a week
00:01:54.580
to write articles for a new substack we're starting, Dying Breed. To learn more about why
00:01:59.240
we're starting a new newsletter and what we're hoping to do with Dying Breed, visit aom.is
00:02:03.660
slash Dying Breed, or you can subscribe to the newsletter directly by going to dyingbreed.net.
00:02:09.380
So again, we're moving to one episode of the podcast each week. It's going to be the same format,
00:02:13.400
same quality guests you've come to expect from the Art of Manly's podcast.
00:02:16.240
Look for new episodes to drop on Tuesdays, and go check out dyingbreed.net to see what we're
00:02:21.260
doing over there. Thank you for your continued support all these years. We're looking forward
00:02:24.800
to many more episodes of the podcast in the coming years. Now on to today's show.
00:02:37.360
Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:02:41.540
Think about your habits, the things you do automatically without much thought.
00:02:45.100
From brushing your teeth in the morning, to scrolling social media before bed.
00:02:49.260
There's a lot going on with these behaviors. On one level, they're just routines and actions
00:02:53.480
wired into our brains through repetition. There's also more to it than that. Our habits shape who
00:02:58.520
we are, influence our health and happiness, and determine much of our success in life.
00:03:03.900
There's a reason changing habits is one of the most powerful ways to transform ourselves.
00:03:08.320
Today on the show, Dr. Gina Cleo will help us understand the science of habit formation,
00:03:11.840
and how we can harness it to build better behaviors. Gina is a researcher with a PhD in
00:03:17.140
habit change and the author of The Habit Revolution, Simple Steps to Rewire Your Brain
00:03:21.520
for Powerful Habit Change. Gina and I discussed the three elements of the habit loop and how to hack
00:03:26.360
them to develop good habits and break bad ones. Along the way, we talk about why microhabits are so
00:03:31.740
effective for creating lasting change, the differences between men and women when it comes to forming habits,
00:03:36.780
how long it really takes for habit to stick, and much more. After the show's over, check out our
00:03:41.820
show notes at awim.is slash habit. All right, Dr. Gina Cleo, welcome to the show.
00:03:59.920
You have a PhD in habit change and you got a book out called The Habit Revolution, Simple Steps to
00:04:05.640
Rewire Your Brain for Powerful Habit Change. It's a new year, so I imagine a lot of people are
00:04:10.220
thinking about good habits they want to start, maybe some bad habits they want to break. Let's
00:04:15.540
start off with your background a bit. You know the old saying, research is me-search. So was there
00:04:20.940
something that led you to dedicate your academic career to researching habits?
00:04:26.460
Yes, of course there was. You know, my journey into habit research was deeply personal. I started my
00:04:32.580
career as a dietitian and I was really interested in health and wellness my whole life, but I really
00:04:39.520
struggled to maintain my own healthy habits, whether it was exercising consistently or even eating well.
00:04:46.460
You know, I would finish a day in my clinic and I'd be eating a packet of biscuits on my way home and
00:04:52.140
really trying not to do that, but struggling so much with my own, I guess, healthy behaviors and
00:04:58.240
consistency. So I became really fascinated with the brain and neuroscience and why we do the things we
00:05:03.980
do and what motivates us as human beings and how to actually create consistency in our behavior.
00:05:10.900
And initially I just thought I was a terrible dietitian, but when I looked at the research,
00:05:14.740
I found that actually 95% of people who set out to achieve a goal don't achieve it. So that's where
00:05:21.500
this idea of learning about our habits, which is the only proven method to achieving long-term success,
00:05:28.040
came about. So I think a lot of us, I think most people have a lay understanding of what a habit is,
00:05:33.680
but how do researchers like you define a habit? Like how is it different from any other behavior?
00:05:39.540
Yeah. So a habit is a behavior that's repeated regularly in the same context and it's become
00:05:45.280
automatic. Habits are generally triggered rather than being consciously intentional. So behaviors,
00:05:52.460
unlike habits, they happen consciously and intentionally, but with habits, once habits are
00:05:59.720
established, they don't require much mental effort. They happen automatically, subconsciously, you know,
00:06:05.100
you don't have to deliberate over your habits. It's just something that habit happens without much
00:06:10.700
mental effort. Habits are the things that we do automatically. Behavies are the things we do
00:06:17.380
Okay. So just to recap there, the characteristics of a habit, there's repetition. There's a high
00:06:21.980
degree of automaticity. You don't have to think about it. And then there's a trigger of some sort
00:06:26.640
that will kick it, kickstart the habit. Okay. What's the dividing line between a habit and say
00:06:32.220
Yeah. The line between habits and addictions can blur, but a crucial difference is how much control we have
00:06:39.340
over them and their impact on our life. Habits can be neutral, they can be negative, or they can be
00:06:45.840
positive. And although it's not always easy, we can absolutely change any habit that we have in our
00:06:52.000
life. Addictions, on the other hand, are usually negative and harmful to our life. And they're
00:06:57.800
compulsive, they're driven by neurological dependence. Addictions essentially hijack our
00:07:04.400
brain's reward system. And it makes us feel like we can't live a happy life without having that substance
00:07:11.020
or the behavior that we're addicted to. Okay. So you know you have an addiction if it just disrupts
00:07:16.780
your life. Like if you can't work, you can't do daily functions, you have an addiction. I think
00:07:21.780
that's important to differentiate or really be specific about what an addiction is. I think we
00:07:26.600
throw that word around a little bit too easy. Like, oh, I'm addicted to cookies. Well, maybe, but
00:07:31.820
probably not. You just have the habit of, like you, eating cookies on the way home from work.
00:07:36.260
Yeah, that's right. And it's not sort of disrupting your life to a significant amount. You can
00:07:42.140
control it with enough intention and effort and consistency. You absolutely can. And that's
00:07:48.180
what separates the habit from the addiction. So you walk through the research or the science
00:07:53.600
of how we form habits. And you talk about there's three stages of habit formation. So what are those
00:07:58.700
three stages of forming a habit? Yeah. So the habit formation framework essentially outlines
00:08:04.640
the three stages are initiation, training, and maintenance. So we initiate a new behavior.
00:08:11.780
We train ourselves in that behavior through repeating it. And then we maintain that new
00:08:16.940
behavior through consistency. So essentially this is how we achieve goals. We decide on a
00:08:22.440
goal that we want to achieve. We take action towards that goal. So we do the things that we
00:08:27.040
need to do to achieve it. And then we continue to do that. So we maintain those behaviors so that
00:08:32.860
we can achieve that outcome. Theoretically, of course.
00:08:36.560
And you make an important point in the book is that you remind people that all habits at some point
00:08:41.280
began as an intentional act. And you said it's an important thing to understand in forming and
00:08:49.640
Yeah. You know, our habits tell a story about our life. I'm a really big believer of that because
00:08:54.760
once upon a time, our habits were intentional actions.
00:08:58.700
They are the things that we once chose to do. And it could be in an attempt to maybe achieve a goal
00:09:06.280
or suppress an uncomfortable emotion or, you know, reach some kind of desired outcome,
00:09:12.340
whether it's convenience or productivity or well-being. And I think it's really important
00:09:16.860
to know that because it helps us to identify, I guess, the chapters of our choices and our priorities,
00:09:23.600
like why we're doing the things that we're doing.
00:09:25.980
And I think once we understand our intentions for starting that behavior,
00:09:31.280
we can then reshape it. We can fulfill those desires in potentially a healthier way if that's
00:09:39.100
Yeah. It's a great reminder. You have some control over this. Like you're not a slave to your habits.
00:09:46.040
Yeah, that's right. And I think there's also a bit of self-compassion that can come to play. You know,
00:09:52.060
let's say you're coming home and you're having a drink of alcohol every night and that's not
00:09:56.860
something that you want to keep doing. But if you were to look back and think, okay,
00:10:00.640
when did this start? What was going on in my life? What was my intentional reason for starting this?
00:10:07.320
You might see that it became a habit because you were trying to reduce stress or you were conforming
00:10:13.560
to social norms or there's all these reasons why we do things. And I think once we understand that,
00:10:19.500
we can have that self-compassion and go, okay, I was just really stressed at that time. That's why
00:10:23.380
I was doing this. It was an act of self-soothing, potentially not the best way to self-soothe
00:10:28.400
and reduce my stress, but that's where it came from. And I can now reduce stress in a healthier
00:10:36.980
You also talk about the habit loop. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are familiar with this idea,
00:10:41.180
but for those who aren't, what is the habit loop?
00:10:43.600
Yeah. So the habit loop is essentially the three ingredients that are found in
00:10:47.400
every habit, both good habits and otherwise. And they are a cue, a routine, and a reward.
00:10:54.040
So the cue, that's that trigger that we talked about. It's the reason why we do the habit.
00:10:59.120
And that cue could be the time of day. It could be the location that you're in. It could be what
00:11:04.980
you've just done beforehand. It could be how you're feeling emotionally or the people that you're
00:11:10.660
around. So all of our habits are cued by one of these five things. And then there's the routine.
00:11:18.260
That's the second ingredient. And the routine is the habit itself. And then there's the reward.
00:11:23.180
And the reward is the reason why you keep doing this habit. If the reward wasn't positive,
00:11:28.020
it wouldn't create this positive feedback loop for you to keep repeating the habit. So as an example,
00:11:34.100
let's say that you come home and the first thing you do when you get home is you eat a cookie.
00:11:37.680
And the very first time you do that, a mental link is created between getting home and eating
00:11:43.460
a cookie. So there's an actual physical neural pathway that's created in the brain. So getting
00:11:48.980
home is the trigger and eating a cookie becomes the routine. And the reward that you get is probably
00:11:55.400
the taste of the cookies. It's the little energy hit that you get or the dopamine. Now, the more you
00:12:01.100
repeat that, getting home, eating a cookie, getting home, eating a cookie, the stronger this link
00:12:06.140
becomes in your brain until eventually just the thought of getting home prompts you to want to
00:12:11.600
eat a cookie. And trying to do anything else becomes really hard because your brain's like,
00:12:16.760
well, when I get home, I eat a cookie and this is what I do. And that's how our habits are formed.
00:12:23.820
Let's talk about cues. And you also call them triggers because this is a really important idea.
00:12:28.040
And you devote a lot of time to this. You mentioned that there are five types of triggers.
00:12:32.140
Can you summarize those again for us? Yeah. So experiments have shown that almost
00:12:36.220
all our habits fit into one of five categories and it could be more than one at a time. So
00:12:41.340
the first one is time, for example, like waking up or midday. The second one is location. So it could
00:12:48.340
be like the kitchen or the bedroom. The third one is preceding event or action. So what you've just
00:12:53.840
done beforehand could be something like brushing your teeth or getting home from work. Number four is
00:12:59.620
emotional state. This could be like stress, loneliness, happiness. And then finally,
00:13:04.680
your social situation, like meeting friends, the people that you're around or your colleagues.
00:13:10.500
So our habits are going to be triggered by one or more of these five triggers.
00:13:16.340
All right. So common triggers, time, location. We got proceeding of interaction, emotional state,
00:13:21.860
and social situation. Another one I've heard of that's rare. I've heard this with some people who are
00:13:29.180
recovering from drug addiction. We're going from habit to addiction, but they're kind of similar.
00:13:34.940
Smell. I guess there's certain drugs that you make that use bleach, I believe. And some people,
00:13:41.580
when they smell bleach, they get a sudden urge for a fix.
00:13:45.680
Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense because our smell is like the quickest way into our memories.
00:13:53.180
And like just a whiff of a familiar smell can trigger a memory from childhood. And I think
00:13:59.820
that probably falls into that emotional state. It creates an emotion within us that makes us crave
00:14:06.260
that thing, you know, like the drug or whatever it is that we're craving. That's really interesting
00:14:12.220
Okay. So we've covered the three basic parts of the habit loop. There's cue, routine, and reward.
00:14:18.220
And these components are part of both bad habits and good habits. And we can tinker with them in
00:14:24.360
different ways to either form a good habit or break a bad habit. Let's talk about forming good
00:14:29.800
habits first. First off, what types of behaviors are we more likely to find success with as far as
00:14:39.340
The complexity of the behavior is going to play a really big role in whether something becomes a
00:14:45.200
habit or not. So more complex behaviors take a lot longer to develop compared with simple behaviors.
00:14:51.700
So one of the latest studies showed that they had two groups of people, one group they asked to wash
00:14:56.960
their hands every day and the other group they asked to go to the gym every day. And the hand
00:15:02.580
washers took only two weeks to develop that habit. Whereas the gym goers took seven months to develop
00:15:09.580
the habit. And that's because going to the gym is a lot more of a complex behavior compared with
00:15:14.800
washing your hands. Washing your hands is something that you can do at any time. You know, there's
00:15:19.660
mostly a sink around. It doesn't take a whole lot of motivation. It takes two minutes to do
00:15:24.760
compared with going to the gym that requires motivation, getting changed, you know, getting in
00:15:30.700
your car. And so simple behaviors are much more likely to become habitual. Now you as a person,
00:15:37.340
you need to want to do the habit. It's really hard to develop a habit from something that you don't
00:15:43.540
care much about. You don't value a lot. You don't see as going to benefit your life or other people's
00:15:50.340
lives. It's really hard to develop that into a habit because there's no intrinsic motivation.
00:15:54.900
There's no reason for you to want to keep pushing and making it automatic.
00:16:01.060
You have a chapter going to this idea of keeping it simple, of using micro habits to build larger,
00:16:07.720
maybe more complex habits. Walk us through that idea of micro habits.
00:16:12.600
Yeah. So micro habits is a term that I've created, which essentially they're just tiny manageable
00:16:17.780
behaviors that serve as the building blocks for larger habits. And they're really powerful because
00:16:24.240
they're achievable and they minimize resistance. So for example, you know, doing one pushup a day or
00:16:31.100
drinking a glass of water after waking up can be the start of a larger habit. Their simplicity builds
00:16:39.020
consistency, which is a key to long-term success. So a couple of examples I give in a book is, you
00:16:45.680
know, if your goal is healthy eating, it's much easier to have a goal of eating a piece of fruit every
00:16:52.220
day compared with trying to overhaul your entire diet. Or if your goal is to do more exercise, it's much
00:16:58.400
easier to have a goal of walking for 15 minutes a day than to try to run a marathon. Meditating,
00:17:05.740
you know, start with just two minutes. A lot of times the very first step is the hardest to
00:17:10.720
everything. You know, the first gym session, the first healthy meal, like the first everything is
00:17:16.320
the hardest. And I'm a big believer that if we can reduce the barriers to entry, if we can make that
00:17:21.720
first step easy and enticing and rewarding, then we're much more likely to do it. And then we can
00:17:30.220
build on that. Okay. So when you're treating your habits, start off simple, keep it small. I know BJ
00:17:37.000
Fogg with his tiny habits. One thing he talks about if like flossing your teeth is a habit you want to
00:17:42.040
start. He says, just start off flossing just one tooth. Like you don't have to floss all your teeth,
00:17:46.400
just do one tooth. And then gradually over time, add more teeth, but you don't have to do it all at
00:17:51.600
once because you're probably not going to be successful with that. Yeah. And what you might
00:17:57.260
find is when you floss one tooth, you're like, oh, I may as well do the rest. Like I've already pulled
00:18:01.140
the floss out and I'm here doing it. You know, I always say to people, create the habit of getting
00:18:05.960
to the gym rather than creating the habit of exercising. If you create the habit of getting to
00:18:10.940
the gym, the rest is going to happen. You're not going to get to the gym and be like, okay, I'm done.
00:18:15.300
I'm going to go home now. You're very likely to go in and do a workout, even if it's a small
00:18:20.140
workout, but it's better than nothing at all. Yeah. You talk about in the book that you've had
00:18:24.180
days where you didn't feel like working out because you're tired, but you still got up and
00:18:28.860
you went to the gym and then you drove home. Oh yeah. I have done that. That's right. That's
00:18:35.380
why this time I was really sick actually. And I was just starting at a new gym. It was a powerlifting
00:18:40.740
gym. I don't powerlift anymore. Just like you, Brett, we're both recovering powerlifting
00:18:45.280
and I wanted to continue the momentum of getting up and going to the gym at this specific time
00:18:53.120
because I had a coach and there was sort of a schedule with it. And this one morning I was
00:18:56.900
really sick and I was like, no, I'm still going to get up. I'm going to get dressed, drive to the
00:19:01.520
gym and I'm going to come straight home. And the really cool thing is once I got better after a week
00:19:06.720
or two, I didn't have to restart my habit of getting to the gym because I was already in it.
00:19:12.260
Yeah. I've done that throughout my lifting career. We'll call it that. I'll have days where
00:19:18.480
I still do this just to maintain the habit of exercise. That's the most, most important habit
00:19:22.420
to me. It's not my PRs aren't that important to me, but like just maintaining that habit of regular
00:19:27.260
exercise. So I'll have days where I don't have time to do a full workout that I have planned.
00:19:32.100
So I'll just get what I can get done in 15 minutes. That might mean I just do a single set of
00:19:37.480
every exercise and that's it. Or if I'm just feeling beat up and tired and I'm like, I really
00:19:42.760
don't want to lift today. I'll go for a walk instead at my regular workout time. I'm just
00:19:47.440
trying to remind my mind and my body. It's like at this time, you're going to move your body in an
00:19:52.120
intentional way. And so when I, once I feel better, I have more time. It's not a problem to keep doing
00:19:57.480
the regular programming. Yeah. It's so powerful to do that because that's exactly what you're doing.
00:20:02.100
You're reinforcing those neural pathways that at this time I move my body. So yeah, that's awesome.
00:20:07.840
And that will really solidify the habit moving forward even more. So with the behavior or the
00:20:12.840
routine, keep it simple. That's going to be your best bet in creating a habit. Let's talk about
00:20:18.380
triggers. You talk about different ways we can supercharge our triggers. So make them more powerful.
00:20:22.860
So if we're wanting to design a positive habit, what are some things we can do with those common
00:20:27.740
triggers to make them even more powerful? So what are those ways we can supercharge a trigger?
00:20:32.100
So you want triggers to be really specific. So instead of, for example, saying, you know,
00:20:37.120
after dinner, you might say when I'm finished eating, because after dinner can be any time,
00:20:43.320
you know, from the time you finished dinner to the next day, whereas after finishing eating
00:20:48.760
is much more specific. So the other one is being salient. So making your triggers really obvious.
00:20:54.560
So you could say something like when I make a coffee, for example, in the morning and having that
00:21:01.300
like really clearly, that's obviously what you're doing. Another one with triggers is something
00:21:05.840
that you want it to be consistent, something that you encounter regularly, consistently,
00:21:11.700
inevitably would be really good. So something that you know is going to happen, like the time of day,
00:21:16.600
that's going to really supercharge your triggers compared to saying like,
00:21:21.000
at Christmas, I'm going to do this because that doesn't happen a lot. You know,
00:21:26.440
Okay. Then you also recommend finding triggers that are automatic. What does that look like?
00:21:31.260
Yeah. So something automatic could be like when I'm finished my breakfast or when my alarm goes
00:21:36.880
off in the morning, I'm going to do this. So they're automatic. They don't require you to put
00:21:41.360
in a whole lot of effort. It's just something that you know is going to happen.
00:21:45.300
Okay. Let's talk about rewards a bit. Is there anything we can do with the reward aspect of the
00:21:52.260
Yeah. You know, one of the best rewards is our emotional rewards. It's just the feeling
00:21:58.060
of satisfaction, of accomplishment, of being proud of yourself. A lot of times people will
00:22:04.000
say things like, you know, if you've done a workout, then go buy yourself a new outfit.
00:22:09.480
And that actually doesn't work because we need the reward instantly. We need to feel that satisfaction,
00:22:16.420
this sense of accomplishment straight away for that habit loop to become reinforced.
00:22:22.900
And so let's say you've done a workout when you really didn't feel like doing it,
00:22:26.320
or you're creating a new habit of working out. Once you get to the gym, take a moment to celebrate
00:22:33.020
your decision to do that. Celebrate the fact that you're there. And it's just a silent moment to
00:22:38.200
yourself when you're just like, I'm proud of you, like well done for being here. And that's going to
00:22:43.060
be such a powerful reward. The other thing that you can do, which I highly recommend is using a
00:22:48.000
habit tracker. So every time you perform the habit that you had intended to do, you just give
00:22:54.200
yourself a little tick for doing that habit. And you know, like with children, we give them a gold
00:22:59.360
star, say for doing their chores and they feel really good for doing that. And they're motivated
00:23:04.440
to want to do it again. We don't grow out of that reward learning as adults. So when we give
00:23:10.140
ourselves a tick on a habit tracker, it sends dopamine through our brain and that feels good
00:23:15.420
and rewarding and pleasurable. And that tells our brains like, Hey, that felt really good. We should
00:23:21.440
totally do this again. And it reinforces the habit. I think that's a good point. I've tried rewarding
00:23:27.360
myself with like physical things like, Oh, if I do this thing, yeah, it doesn't work because you can
00:23:32.980
only reward yourself once with, you know, say if you want to buy yourself a new pair of shoes,
00:23:36.700
right? Like lifting shoes, but what's your reward going to be all the other times you'd complete at
00:23:42.800
the habit loop, you know, like each time you do your workout because there's just too much of a
00:23:46.400
delay between the behavior and the reward. Yeah, exactly. Right. And just accept that the reward
00:23:51.860
might be endorphins from working out. It could be dopamine. It could be a hit of serotonin, but just
00:23:56.600
sit and notice those moments. I actually think buying the lifting shoes, getting the new outfit for
00:24:03.120
working out should be done before you work out because that's going to motivate you to go
00:24:07.920
rather than trying to do it afterwards. So let's put all we've talked about together
00:24:13.360
and how we can form an action plan for creating new positive habits. We've been talking about
00:24:18.600
working out. Let's talk about something else. I know a lot of people, maybe they want to read more
00:24:21.960
instead of scrolling more on social media at nighttime. So walk us through an example of say,
00:24:27.860
someone who wants to read more, what can they do using these things we've talked about of the habit
00:24:33.540
loop, the habit formation process to become a regular nightly reader? Yeah. So start really
00:24:39.880
small, you know, find the book that you want to read and maybe set out just to read one page. If
00:24:44.200
you're new to reading, I would also say if your phone is around, it's really hard to put that battle,
00:24:51.740
the head to head battle between the phone and the book, because most likely your phone will win.
00:24:56.080
It gives you way more dopamine. There's a lot more stimulation in a phone compared with
00:25:00.540
a black and white book. So I would put your phone somewhere where you can't reach it from bed.
00:25:06.640
I charge my phone like in my ensuite or in the lounge room even, and then have your book there
00:25:12.160
and ready. So start small, set that micro goal, like reading one page and set the trigger. So you might
00:25:19.400
say, when I get in bed in the evenings, I'm going to read one page. And then once you've done that,
00:25:25.200
check it off on your habit tracker and that's, you know, you're created the habit loop. So that's
00:25:30.740
going to be you celebrating your win, which is the reward. And it's just then all about consistency.
00:25:37.260
So focus on consistency over intensity and then gradually build. So once one page becomes
00:25:44.060
natural and easy and something you don't have to remind yourself to do, then you can start with
00:25:50.140
two pages and then gradually building from there.
00:25:53.120
Okay. That's simple enough. So it's simple. It might not be easy to put in place. I think the
00:25:57.380
hard part is just that training part of doing it over and over and over again, night after night
00:26:02.440
without fail. Cause that's, that's what you got to do if you want to create that habit.
00:26:06.500
Yeah, that's right. But you know, I think when you have in the front of your mind, why you're doing
00:26:12.140
this, why it's valuable to you, why it's important to you, then the motivation to keep going becomes
00:26:19.140
easier to access. We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
00:26:26.040
And now back to the show. Do we know how long it takes to form a new habit? Like how long do we have
00:26:31.720
to do this training process, right? Of reading a page every night before it just becomes a habit?
00:26:36.680
Yeah, there's a really wide range, which I hate saying, you know, I hate saying it depends,
00:26:42.120
but it does depend. You know, most people have heard that it takes 21 days or 28 days to create
00:26:47.960
a new habit. And that is absolutely false. There's no evidence to prove that at all.
00:26:52.620
The research shows that can take anywhere from two weeks to up to a year to create a new habit
00:26:58.860
with an average time, like very rough average being about 66 days or 10 weeks. But again,
00:27:06.680
those simpler habits are going to develop much quicker. The stronger your intention,
00:27:12.860
the quicker the habit will develop as well. Yeah. That 21 day thing. I'm sure people have
00:27:16.940
heard that one. The funny thing about that, that came from a book written by a plastic surgeon,
00:27:21.960
I think like in the 1960s called Psycho-Cybernetics. It was kind of like a self-improvement book,
00:27:27.280
but I think you mentioned like the 21 day habit thing in that book.
00:27:30.640
Yeah. So he was a facial reconstruction surgeon and he found that when his patients would look in
00:27:38.060
the mirror after they've had facial reconstruction, it took three to four weeks for them not to get a
00:27:43.440
shock when they looked at their face, their new face. So he was like, okay, it must take 21 days
00:27:48.800
for neuroplasticity, which is, you know, changes in the brain. That means it takes 21 days to change a
00:27:54.540
habit. But really, it is such a loose connection and it's been debunked by science ever since then.
00:28:02.400
So you mentioned some factors that can influence how long it takes for a habit to form. One of them
00:28:06.840
is this, the intention you're putting into the habit formation. Any other factors that might
00:28:11.040
contribute to how long or how short a habit takes to form? Yeah. So another factor in a really
00:28:17.500
common one is stress. So the more stressed we are, the less we are likely to create a new habit.
00:28:23.940
You know, our prefrontal cortex or our logical brain isn't as active. We're more likely to fall
00:28:30.100
into unwanted habits because it's really hard to find the motivation and I guess the oomph to want
00:28:37.120
to create new, healthy habits. So stress is going to be a factor. How habitual you are as a person
00:28:44.080
also plays a role. You know, I'm not naturally a very habitual person, which is quite ironic for a
00:28:50.200
habit researcher. I prefer spontaneity, flexibility. No two days are the same in my life. And so it takes
00:28:58.180
me a little bit longer potentially to create new habits, but I can break old habits quite easily
00:29:04.240
compared with my husband, who is very habitual. Like the man can easily eat the same thing every
00:29:10.800
single day and doesn't bother him at all. He can create new habits a lot quicker,
00:29:15.040
but struggles to break old habits as quickly as I do. The other thing is consistency. You know,
00:29:21.960
how consistent are you with performing your new habit? The more you do it, the more habitual it's
00:29:27.420
going to become and the quicker it's going to develop into a habit. So making sure that your
00:29:32.000
environment is conducive and supportive to your new habit, that you're encountering the trigger
00:29:38.720
trigger as often as possible and that you're doing the habit every time you encounter the trigger.
00:29:43.900
Yeah. That idea of some people are just more habitual than others. I've seen that in my own
00:29:48.340
life. I'm a very habitual person. I eat the same thing pretty much breakfast, lunch, and then dinners,
00:29:54.600
whatever we have as a family. But I've been eating the same thing for like the past seven years.
00:29:59.360
And it's funny, my dad is like that too. Like he's been eating special K and drinking Folgers coffee
00:30:04.980
probably for 40 years. And I picked that up from him. You highlight some research. This is
00:30:12.080
speculative. It's burgeoning that men and women might differ in their habit formation. How do they
00:30:17.660
differ? Yeah. I mean, men and women are motivated and triggered by different things. For example,
00:30:23.200
men are more triggered by external or environmental cues like images or, you know, matching other people's
00:30:30.900
behavior. Whereas women tend to be more triggered by internal or emotional cues, like how stressed they
00:30:37.140
are, how much responsibility they have in their families and how much capacity they have to create
00:30:44.700
new habits. So it is speculative. There's research is still emerging, but we are definitely seeing that
00:30:50.380
there is a difference. In my own practice, anecdotally, I found that men develop habits a lot quicker
00:30:56.520
than women. And I think because there is less of those emotional fluctuations that trigger behavior
00:31:03.600
compared with women. You know, men can be a lot more militant. I think if I was to be overgeneralizing
00:31:10.160
in my comment compared with women who are a little bit more fluid generally from their day-to-day life.
00:31:17.800
We've talked about how do you form a good habit. You also talk about that sometimes even good habits
00:31:21.940
can be detrimental. How so? Yeah. I mean, there's a theory called this habituation where we're too
00:31:29.900
habitual. Your good habits can become rigid, making us sort of less adaptable in new situations. So,
00:31:37.940
you know, for example, a really strict workout routine might cause anxiety if it's disrupted.
00:31:43.340
Whereas balance comes from allowing flexibility and thinking of habits as tools rather than rules.
00:31:49.800
And then maybe periodically reassessing whether a habit is actually serving your current goals
00:31:55.300
and then adapting it accordingly. You know, I just came back from holiday and while we were away,
00:32:01.140
we were in the Philippines for a couple of weeks and then went to Thailand. And our time in the
00:32:05.160
Philippines, there was a power outage in the entire island. We had no power. So there was no running
00:32:12.860
water, no electricity, no fans, no air con, nothing. And for the 10 days that we were there, it was really
00:32:20.500
challenging to want to work out because it was so hot and super humid. And the gym that we'd signed up
00:32:26.800
to had also closed because it was just like, there's no lights, there was nothing. And so we had to just
00:32:33.120
adapt. We went surfing and walking, we went on little hikes. And yeah, it wasn't what we planned and
00:32:40.140
scheduled, but we did what we can with the resources that we had. And I think if we're too rigid,
00:32:48.080
then our good habits can become detrimental because that creates anxiety. So that flexibility point is
00:32:54.340
really important for our wellbeing. Yeah. You see that with exercise. You kind of talked about that,
00:32:59.040
you know, both you and I, we had moments in our programming or training where we couldn't do the
00:33:04.580
full workout that we had programmed. If you're really rigid with that, you're like, well, if I
00:33:10.140
can't do the full workout, then I just shouldn't do anything at all. But if you have a little bit
00:33:13.640
of flexibility with that, it's okay. What's the bigger goal I'm trying to accomplish here? Okay.
00:33:17.600
Exercise. Well, I can do something else besides, you know, three sets of five on deadlift, squat,
00:33:22.540
and bench, and I'll be okay. Yeah, absolutely. And I see this all or nothing mentality so much,
00:33:27.900
especially with our diet. You know, if I can't eat perfectly, then I'm just going to blow out and I'll eat
00:33:33.320
all the keg and all the ice cream and all the things. And it's actually so much better to be
00:33:37.460
flexible in your approach and enjoy everything in moderation. And then just keep living your life
00:33:43.740
that way instead of having this all or nothing mentality, which just doesn't work long-term.
00:33:49.800
Let's talk about breaking bad habits. So how can we use this knowledge of habits to
00:33:55.600
break bad habits we don't want? When you think of the habit loop as key routine reward,
00:34:01.920
every single habit is triggered by something. So if we can disrupt that key routine reward loop,
00:34:09.920
then we can break our habits. So there's two ways that we can do that. We can either replace the old
00:34:15.680
habit with a new habit that we want to do, or if it's possible, we can try to avoid that trigger
00:34:22.200
altogether. So often the one thing that we get wrong when we're trying to change our behavior is we focus
00:34:28.160
so much on trying to break the habit. We will say, okay, I'm going to stop drinking or I'm going to
00:34:33.040
stop eating cookies. Like those things are dead to me. And then we get home and the first thing that we
00:34:38.580
do is we go and eat a cookie or, you know, grab a bottle of alcohol. And the reason is that as soon
00:34:45.000
as our brain encounters the trigger for the habit that we have, it's already started firing the necessary
00:34:52.600
neural pathways to take the next action. That key routine reward, that habit loop happens in a split
00:34:59.760
second and we're not even aware that it's happening. And so it's really hard for us to encounter a
00:35:05.320
trigger and then try to stop doing the habit. It's so much easier to understand what the trigger is,
00:35:13.740
preempt the trigger. So you might say, when I get home today, I'm really going to feel like having
00:35:18.280
some alcohol, but this is what I'm going to do instead. And you can preempt the craving and try
00:35:24.080
to interject with a new behavior or change your environment or create barriers to make those
00:35:31.340
unwanted habits harder to do. And then it's so much more empowering and much easier to break habits that
00:35:37.160
way than, you know, trying to do it the other way. It's much easier to reverse engineer the process.
00:35:42.740
So if, for example, you know, driving past a fast food chain triggers you to go in there and order
00:35:49.920
a Big Mac combo, then if it's possible to drive a different way, do that. And that's going to break
00:35:56.320
that habit of, you know, eating fast food. If you can't change the trigger, you know, if driving a
00:36:03.280
different way isn't a possibility, then it's important to preempt it. You would say, okay, when I drive past
00:36:08.700
this fast food chain, I'm going to be tempted to go inside, but this is what I'm going to do instead.
00:36:12.740
And you might, you know, pack something, you might order something smaller or, you know,
00:36:17.720
whatever it is. And it's really just about creating barriers for the habits that you want to break
00:36:23.520
and having really strong intentions. The stronger our intention, the weaker our habits become.
00:36:30.560
You also talk about, we can do things with the reward aspect to break bad habits.
00:36:34.440
What are some things we can do to manipulate the reward to break a bad habit?
00:36:38.400
Yeah. I actually, I remember a story I wrote in the book about our, I guess our perception of
00:36:46.240
certain rewards. Let's say you smoke, for example, and you really love how the cigarette makes you
00:36:52.320
feel. You love the nicotine hit that you get, the dopamine hit, and it feels awesome. And so your mind
00:36:57.920
is telling you, I really love this habit. So you, you've got this big reward value from it.
00:37:04.020
What they did in a study recently, actually, is they got smokers to mindfully smoke. So they got
00:37:10.360
them to have a cigarette and then describe exactly what it tasted like, what it felt like afterwards.
00:37:15.820
And the descriptions that they gave were things like, oh, this tastes like ash, like tar, like you're
00:37:22.600
on a tarmac at an airport and it just tastes disgusting. And once their reward value, like their perception
00:37:29.760
of the reward of that cigarette reduced, every single one of those study participants stopped
00:37:35.480
smoking. And it's because they no longer felt like it was a rewarding experience. The reward they thought
00:37:41.600
they got from it wasn't actually there once they brought mindfulness into it. And it's a really
00:37:46.540
interesting diet. I think it's called the yuck diet. It's not a technical term, certainly not a
00:37:51.180
scientific term, but some guy invented it where essentially he started thinking of things like
00:37:56.120
spaghetti is like worms and chocolates, like mud and cheeses, like mucus. And once he started to
00:38:03.000
think of food like that, and look, not that I'm condoning that because I think all food is
00:38:07.840
acceptable, but for him, he had a real, I guess he was sort of out of control with some of these foods.
00:38:12.920
But once he started to see those foods as less valuable, less rewarding, less enticing,
00:38:17.980
he no longer craved them and was able to eat them with a lot more like control. And he, you know,
00:38:27.240
lost a bunch of weight and it was a really cool story. But the reward that you place on something
00:38:31.600
is going to impact directly how much you crave that thing. So just, if we can change our perspective
00:38:38.000
on things, I think it can be one of the most empowering things we can do with breaking our
00:38:43.340
unwanted habits. Yeah. Judson Brewer, we've had him on the podcast. He talks about this,
00:38:47.380
he calls it disenchanting bad habits. So yeah, whenever you experience that reward from,
00:38:52.420
it could be food or I think he does like smoking cessation, you work to disenchant the reward.
00:38:57.780
And I've actually used this idea to quit looking at Instagram because, you know, you're bored. And so
00:39:03.400
you're pulled into just opening up the app and just scrolling through. But every time you do,
00:39:07.920
you're like, man, there's nothing here. Like, why am I wasting my time with this? And you almost feel a
00:39:13.100
little bit of disgust. And so to disenchant the habit, you really have to lean into that feeling
00:39:18.180
and really focus and think about the fact that there's nothing interesting here and you wouldn't
00:39:23.800
have missed anything if you hadn't checked it. So let's use kind of a practical example to walk
00:39:28.000
people through how to break a bad habit, what we've been talking about. I know a lot of people
00:39:31.860
in January, they take part in something that's called dry January, which is, you know, you don't drink
00:39:37.040
alcohol during January. So how could we use the things we've talked about in breaking bad habits
00:39:42.800
to be successful at dry January? Yeah. I mean, again, looking at the habit loop is like,
00:39:47.780
what are the triggers? And try to change the environment as much as possible. So firstly,
00:39:53.380
don't have alcohol in your house, maybe stock your house filled with non-alcoholic alternatives instead.
00:40:00.120
I worked with someone who would come home and the first thing that she did was she'd pour a glass of
00:40:04.840
wine and that was like her habit. You know, not coming home isn't an option. She's got to go home
00:40:10.420
every day. And so what we did is we moved all the wine bottles into a really hard to reach shelf
00:40:16.580
in the garage where she needed to get a step ladder to access it. We moved all her wine glasses to a
00:40:24.100
different cupboard and then we put all her tea mugs where the wine glasses were. So the first couple of
00:40:29.960
days she came home, she opened the cupboard where the wine glasses used to be only to find all these
00:40:36.740
tea mugs. And that's what was triggering her memory that she's actually here to change this
00:40:41.880
wine drinking habit. And so then she'd make herself a tea and she felt the reward and the satisfaction of
00:40:47.880
doing something that was healthier for her body. So think of ways that you can create barriers for
00:40:53.840
drinking. Definitely tell your friends so that you've got that accountability and that
00:40:58.620
they're not tempting you where, you know, social, social events that require alcohol and keep that
00:41:05.020
habit tracker. So every day you successfully go without drinking alcohol, make sure you give
00:41:10.260
yourself a tick and be proud of yourself for another day down. I love it. You devote a lot of time in the
00:41:16.520
book to motivation. How do psychologists define motivation? Psychologists define motivation as the
00:41:22.480
reason that we initiate, choose or persist in specific actions in specific circumstances. So
00:41:30.360
simply put, motivation is the reason that we act in a particular way.
00:41:35.500
What's the interplay between motivation and habit formation? Like why did you spend so much time
00:41:38.800
talking about motivation in a book about habits? I think whenever we're looking at changing our
00:41:44.140
behavior, I think one of the biggest things that people say is I just don't have motivation. I don't have
00:41:48.980
it in me. It's like, it's almost like we're waiting for motivation to come, but it's such a myth because
00:41:55.360
action is a prerequisite to motivation. Motivation comes as a result of action. Like how often do you
00:42:02.520
absolutely not feel like doing something and you take the first step anyway, and then you're in it,
00:42:08.320
like you're motivated to do it and you complete the task and you actually feel quite good about it.
00:42:12.740
I definitely have that with things like, you know, decluttering something or, you know, I'm packing my
00:42:19.780
suitcase right now. I'm like, oh, I just don't feel like doing it. But as soon as I get started,
00:42:24.140
the rest flows and it becomes so much easier. Motivation kickstarts habit formation. We have
00:42:31.360
to feel motivated the very beginning of creating a new habit. But once that habit has a bit of momentum
00:42:38.860
and automaticity, then consistency is what sustains it. We no longer need motivation for our habits.
00:42:46.120
It's like, no matter how tired, stressed, fatigued you are, you'll always put your seatbelt on in the
00:42:52.000
car because it's something that you do habitually. You don't need to be motivated to do it. And that's
00:42:57.340
a real power of habits, but we do need motivation just at the very start when we're creating a new habit.
00:43:04.060
So you mentioned, okay, just do the thing and the motivation will follow. Any other things we can do
00:43:09.500
to take control of our motivation so we're more likely to achieve our habit goals, especially for
00:43:13.880
those habits that seem harder to make or break? Yeah. I mean, break those ones down. Definitely
00:43:19.700
make it a lot more enticing for yourself. Like find ways for you to want to do it. You know,
00:43:25.240
let's say like you get to listen to your favorite music as you're doing the task or you get to do it
00:43:31.720
with a friend or the other thing to do is really see progress. Like make sure that you're measuring
00:43:37.940
progress if you can, even if your progress is just seeing how often you're doing the thing because
00:43:44.420
motivation grows as you see progress. So that build that momentum nice and early, but just focus on,
00:43:51.820
yeah, starting small and know that the motivation will come, like trust that it'll come.
00:43:57.860
Something that's going to happen in the habit formation journey is you're going to have
00:44:02.340
setbacks. You know, you're doing great. Then you have a day where you don't do the thing and then
00:44:06.940
a day turns into two and you're just like, oh, yeah, I failed again at starting a habit or you're
00:44:12.440
trying to break a habit and you have a setback. What do you recommend people do to deal with setbacks
00:44:17.680
in their habit goals? I mean, I think the first thing to know is that setbacks are a part of the
00:44:23.340
process. It's not if you have a setback, it's when you have a setback, no matter how disciplined or
00:44:30.140
motivated you are. It's part of the process. And, you know, the most successful people in the world
00:44:36.020
also have setbacks. And what differentiates them from the people that go and fall off the wagon
00:44:42.000
entirely is the successful people will get up and they'll do so quickly after a setback. And rather
00:44:48.180
than seeing those setbacks as failures, they view them as data. It's like what triggered this lapse?
00:44:54.540
How can I adjust moving forward? Do I need to change my cue or my trigger? Do I need to change
00:45:00.680
the intensity of this habit? Really focus on your next action rather than dwelling on the setback.
00:45:07.680
And the most important thing is going to be self-compassion. People who are kind to themselves
00:45:13.240
after a setback are so much more likely to bounce back quickly and like to allow themselves to make
00:45:20.120
errors and make mistakes and just jump back on the horse and keep going.
00:45:25.320
Yeah, that self-compassion component, I found that it's really important in any behavior change or goal
00:45:30.960
pursuit that you have. I think we, a lot of us have this idea that, well, you got to really beat
00:45:36.680
yourself up and you got to be a drill sergeant. And so if you fail, you got to just really,
00:45:42.000
you know, flagellate in order to get back on the horse. And the research actually says that actually
00:45:47.640
doesn't work. It's better just to be a little kinder to yourself.
00:45:51.620
Yeah. And I know, and it sounds counterproductive and counterintuitive, but you're right. That is
00:45:56.020
exactly what the research shows over and over again. We're so much more,
00:45:59.900
are going to be much more successful if we can practice self-compassion than self-criticism.
00:46:05.160
And I think the problem is people have this, I think especially men have the wrong idea of what
00:46:09.440
self-compassion looks like. They kind of think it looks soft and, you know, weak, but it's not the
00:46:15.720
way I think of self-compassion is, you know, you've had a coach, I have a barbell coach,
00:46:20.400
like they show compassion to me. It's not like they're like, Oh, Brad, it's okay. You're going
00:46:25.340
to be fine. You know, he'll be really upfront with me and saying, Hey, yeah, that was tough. You
00:46:28.800
didn't make it. That's okay though. Get back to your workout the next time and it'll be fine. It's not
00:46:33.320
like you're not treating yourself like a little kid who needs their boo-boo kissed. You're just
00:46:37.240
not beating yourself up. Exactly right. Yeah. And it is. And it's so powerful. And there's a
00:46:43.040
really awesome book by Dr. Kristen Neff called Self-Compassion. And I recommend everyone read
00:46:48.240
it. It's a real game changer for any person who struggles in this space. Cause I don't think it
00:46:54.560
comes naturally for us to practice self-compassion. I think there are a lot of misconceptions around it,
00:46:59.160
especially with men, like you mentioned, Brett. So I think it's something like we can all practice
00:47:03.840
and do a little bit better in that space. It really is a powerful tool.
00:47:08.080
Well, Gina, is there anything else we haven't talked about on habits that you think would be
00:47:12.120
really useful for people to hear about in order to be more successful with their habit goals this year?
00:47:16.980
I mean, I think we've covered so much, but one thing I'd add is that you're not stuck with your
00:47:21.340
brain, no matter how old you are, no matter how long you've been doing the habit, no matter how stuck
00:47:27.540
you feel. All of our brains, by virtue of neuroplasticity, are able to be rewired. You
00:47:34.340
can rewire your brain. All you need is consistency, determination, persistence, and the right tools.
00:47:40.340
So just know that you absolutely can change any habit that you have.
00:47:45.360
Well, Gina, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book
00:47:49.060
Thanks, Brett. I've loved chatting to you. Well, you can find my book and my work on my website,
00:47:53.820
along with free resources. I've got a free habit change masterclass. There's free habit
00:47:59.320
trackers on there. You can also access my online courses and follow on social media for tips on
00:48:06.180
rewiring your brain. And all the links are at drginacleo.com.
00:48:11.460
Fantastic. Well, Gina, Cleo, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:48:17.400
My guest here was Gina Cleo. She's the author of the book, The Habit Revolution. It's available
00:48:20.640
on amazon.com. You can find more information about her work at our website,
00:48:23.660
drginacleo.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash habit, where you find links to
00:48:28.360
resources where we delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM
00:48:39.620
podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you find our podcast
00:48:43.080
archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much
00:48:46.540
anything you think of. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute
00:48:50.220
to just read up a podcast or Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that,
00:48:53.660
already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would
00:48:57.420
think we've got something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next
00:49:01.140
time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to not listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into