The Art of Manliness - How to Have the Conversations You’ve Been Avoiding

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00:02:07.500 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast,

00:02:12.220 which since 2008 has featured conversations

00:02:14.360 with the world's best authors, thinkers, and leaders

00:02:16.880 that glean their edifying, life-improving insights

00:02:19.580 without the fluff and filler.

00:02:21.340 The AOM Podcast is just one part of the McKay mission

00:02:23.580 to help individuals practice timeless virtues

00:02:25.560 through thought, word, and deed.

00:02:27.820 Also, be sure to explore our articles in artofmanliness.com,

00:02:30.720 read the deeper dives we do in our Substack newsletter

00:02:32.780 at dyingbreed.net,

00:02:34.380 and turn our content into real-world action

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00:02:39.280 Now on to the show.

00:02:48.220 The awkward silence at work

00:02:49.580 when everyone knows a project is going off the rails.

00:02:52.120 The simmering resentment in a marriage

00:02:53.520 over an issue neither spouse will confront.

00:02:55.700 The dysfunction in a church

00:02:56.720 where certain topics are understood to be off limits.

00:02:59.320 My guest, Joseph Grinney,

00:03:00.640 says that some of the biggest problems in every organization,

00:03:03.080 from businesses to families,

00:03:04.480 aren't the issues themselves,

00:03:05.680 but people's inability to talk about them.

00:03:08.600 Joseph is a business social scientist and consultant

00:03:10.500 and the co-author of the best-selling book,

00:03:12.400 Crucial Conversations.

00:03:13.700 For decades, he studied why people shut down

00:03:15.520 or blow up when stakes are high,

00:03:16.960 emotions are strong,

00:03:18.000 and opinions differ.

00:03:19.200 From figuring out what kind of conversation

00:03:20.600 you need to have,

00:03:21.300 to creating the right conditions for connection,

00:03:23.060 to dealing with criticism,

00:03:24.460 we unpack how to have the conversations

00:03:25.880 you've been avoiding

00:03:26.480 at work, at home, and everywhere else.

00:03:29.580 After the show's over,

00:03:30.400 check out our show notes

00:03:31.040 at aom.is slash Crucial Conversations.

00:03:45.360 All right, Joseph Grinney, welcome to the show.

00:03:47.560 Happy to be here with you, Brett.

00:03:48.960 So you are a business social scientist and researcher.

00:03:51.140 You're a speaker and a corporate consultant

00:03:53.100 who specializes in organizational performance

00:03:56.320 and human behavior.

00:03:58.000 And something you observed decades ago

00:04:00.020 in companies really shaped your career.

00:04:02.480 And that was that

00:04:03.760 some of the biggest problems in companies

00:04:06.100 are the result of people

00:04:07.800 not feeling able to speak up about problems.

00:04:10.820 And you wrote a book over 20 years ago,

00:04:12.700 it's called Crucial Conversations,

00:04:13.960 about how to fix that.

00:04:15.760 So you train corporations and companies

00:04:17.460 in this skill of crucial conversations.

00:04:19.840 But this problem of not being able

00:04:21.920 to talk about hard things,

00:04:23.380 this happens in personal relationships too,

00:04:25.820 like in families.

00:04:26.580 It's not just business.

00:04:27.780 Do you think?

00:04:29.680 Yeah, in fact, the general way

00:04:31.240 we've come to describe our findings

00:04:32.880 is that you can pretty much tell

00:04:35.200 the health of any relationship,

00:04:37.040 any team, or any organization

00:04:38.620 by looking at one simple thing.

00:04:40.600 And that is the lag time

00:04:42.020 between when people see it

00:04:43.220 and when they say it.

00:04:44.440 Between when they feel it

00:04:45.520 and when they discuss it.

00:04:46.420 Between when it's a concern

00:04:47.460 and when it's a conversation.

00:04:49.380 And so you look at a marriage

00:04:50.500 and if there are undiscussables,

00:04:52.740 if there are things

00:04:53.540 that both of us are bothered about,

00:04:55.920 but neither is talking about,

00:04:57.480 it comes out in passive-aggressive ways.

00:04:59.680 If you don't talk it out,

00:05:01.020 you act it out.

00:05:02.140 And it shows up in your behavior.

00:05:03.640 And that always makes matters worse

00:05:05.420 and tends to make the problems

00:05:07.400 persevere and even worsen.

00:05:09.780 And so the general finding

00:05:11.520 that any social system,

00:05:13.160 it could be a church congregation,

00:05:14.480 it could be a community organization,

00:05:16.120 a nonprofit, or what have you,

00:05:18.000 even entire nations suffer from this,

00:05:20.160 our inability to have emotionally

00:05:21.980 and politically risky conversations

00:05:23.800 is at the heart of most

00:05:25.960 all of our persistent problems.

00:05:28.540 So what makes a conversation

00:05:30.680 a crucial conversation?

00:05:32.420 So the three characteristics

00:05:33.900 of a crucial conversation

00:05:35.320 are that it is high stakes.

00:05:36.700 There's something on the table

00:05:37.660 that matters a lot to me.

00:05:39.580 Now, it doesn't necessarily have to be

00:05:41.380 that the entire economy

00:05:42.860 is going to crash.

00:05:43.860 It could just be that

00:05:44.540 my ego feels threatened.

00:05:46.160 There's something important to me,

00:05:47.380 high stakes.

00:05:48.160 Second, I come into these moments

00:05:50.300 expecting the other person

00:05:51.980 to disagree with me.

00:05:53.640 I expect you to have

00:05:54.660 an opposing opinion.

00:05:56.560 And the third is,

00:05:57.520 there's an emotional content to this

00:05:59.000 or emotionally salient to us.

00:06:01.200 And so the combination

00:06:02.500 of high stakes, opposing opinions,

00:06:04.780 and strong emotions

00:06:05.960 causes us to show up differently

00:06:08.180 in these moments

00:06:08.920 than we would most any other time.

00:06:10.920 So there are a lot of us

00:06:11.820 that are quite princely or regal

00:06:13.920 and, you know, effective,

00:06:15.440 diplomatic and so forth

00:06:16.660 in how we show up

00:06:17.540 and a lot of communication,

00:06:18.800 great at small talk.

00:06:20.160 But in these moments,

00:06:21.380 these moments of emotional stress

00:06:23.660 and threat,

00:06:24.880 we behave differently

00:06:25.960 and that has enormous consequences

00:06:28.480 for our outcomes.

00:06:29.760 Why do we behave differently?

00:06:30.940 Because you take a step back

00:06:32.340 and say, well,

00:06:32.620 it's just a conversation.

00:06:33.680 It's not like, you know,

00:06:34.600 someone's got a gun drawn on you.

00:06:36.740 Well, it is kind of like

00:06:37.800 someone's got a gun drawn on you,

00:06:39.240 unfortunately.

00:06:40.580 So I'll give you a brief anecdote.

00:06:42.180 One of my business partners,

00:06:44.420 Kerry Patterson,

00:06:45.160 and I had a long, long history

00:06:47.860 of writing together.

00:06:49.360 We did a lot of the writing

00:06:50.380 on these books together

00:06:51.360 and worked in very close collaboration.

00:06:53.800 And as you'd expect,

00:06:54.600 there were crucial conversations

00:06:55.900 along the way.

00:06:56.580 One happened on a particular Saturday

00:06:58.620 where our pattern was

00:06:59.600 one or the other of us

00:07:00.480 would write the first draft

00:07:01.560 of a chapter,

00:07:02.520 send it to the other,

00:07:03.320 the other would do critiques,

00:07:04.360 and then we'd get together

00:07:05.160 on the phone to talk about it.

00:07:07.220 So I sent it over on Thursday.

00:07:09.160 Kerry got the chapter

00:07:10.020 and then he rewrote it.

00:07:11.180 I sent it back

00:07:11.940 and with some rewrites.

00:07:13.020 So here we are,

00:07:13.880 Saturday, seven o'clock.

00:07:15.160 And I said,

00:07:15.760 so Kerry, did you get it?

00:07:16.800 And he said,

00:07:17.260 yes, yes, I did.

00:07:18.500 I said, what'd you think?

00:07:19.560 He said, you ruined it.

00:07:20.920 I said, I didn't ruin it.

00:07:21.960 I fixed it.

00:07:23.020 He said, you didn't fix it.

00:07:24.220 It's all disjointed now.

00:07:25.400 I said, it's not disjointed.

00:07:26.560 It has a soul.

00:07:27.840 I mean, here we are.

00:07:28.920 And this was a chapter

00:07:29.940 of Crucial Conversations.

00:07:33.440 And, you know,

00:07:34.440 as I tell that story

00:07:35.800 and I recall that moment,

00:07:37.000 I think I knew better than this.

00:07:38.380 I knew how to respond

00:07:39.600 in this moment,

00:07:40.340 but it wasn't coming

00:07:41.400 out of my mouth.

00:07:42.160 It wasn't even accessible to me.

00:07:43.900 Our problem

00:07:45.020 in these Crucial Conversations

00:07:46.760 is first and foremost,

00:07:48.260 physiological.

00:07:49.740 Literal changes,

00:07:50.900 physiological changes

00:07:52.100 happen in our bodies

00:07:53.600 when we're under stress

00:07:55.020 or threat.

00:07:56.140 Cortisol starts to increase

00:07:58.100 and adrenaline starts

00:07:59.800 to course through our veins

00:08:00.860 in higher concentration.

00:08:02.500 Literally,

00:08:03.000 parts of our brain shut down. 1.00

00:08:04.940 And we behave like idiots. 1.00

00:08:06.500 We behave like raw animals 1.00

00:08:08.620 that only know how to fight, 0.99

00:08:09.840 flight, or freeze.

00:08:10.460 And so there's a physiology

00:08:12.440 you've got to overcome.

00:08:13.580 And much of what we learned

00:08:14.660 about how to deal

00:08:15.520 with Crucial Conversations

00:08:16.780 are skills for addressing

00:08:18.620 that physiological problem

00:08:20.120 we've got.

00:08:20.660 The fact that I feel stressed

00:08:22.300 and tight and angry

00:08:23.780 or aroused,

00:08:24.740 that's the first thing

00:08:25.880 we have to contend with.

00:08:27.580 So whenever we find ourselves

00:08:29.080 in these high-stakes moments,

00:08:31.020 so Crucial Conversations,

00:08:32.540 the stakes are high,

00:08:34.120 there's differing opinions,

00:08:35.260 and there's a lot

00:08:36.900 of emotional salience going on.

00:08:39.720 Typical response

00:08:40.980 is that people

00:08:42.460 just don't say anything.

00:08:44.140 And it's because

00:08:44.740 I think oftentimes people

00:08:45.760 feel like we have

00:08:46.400 these two choices.

00:08:47.620 It's like, okay,

00:08:48.300 I can speak up,

00:08:49.960 be honest,

00:08:51.000 and ruin the relationship.

00:08:53.600 Or I can stay silent

00:08:55.420 and just keep the peace

00:08:56.400 and don't rock the boat.

00:08:57.480 And you call this 0.99

00:08:58.480 the fool's choice. 1.00

00:09:00.000 Why are we so conditioned 1.00

00:09:01.060 to believe those are only

00:09:02.440 two options

00:09:03.100 in a tough conversation?

00:09:05.260 Yeah, you think about it

00:09:06.820 and what I just described,

00:09:08.380 when the prefrontal cortex

00:09:10.380 of our brain

00:09:11.260 starts to shut down

00:09:12.380 because in moments

00:09:13.260 of stress and threat,

00:09:14.580 our body doesn't think

00:09:15.980 we need complex

00:09:17.040 problem solving.

00:09:17.920 What we need is to be able

00:09:18.800 to run very fast

00:09:19.740 or hit really hard

00:09:20.700 or hide

00:09:21.460 or something like that.

00:09:22.560 Very simple tasks.

00:09:24.280 And so portions

00:09:25.280 of our body

00:09:25.960 get starved for blood

00:09:27.100 and the oxygen

00:09:27.840 associated with it.

00:09:28.940 So we don't think

00:09:29.600 particularly clearly. 0.99

00:09:31.500 And so this fool's choice 0.99

00:09:33.040 is evidence 1.00

00:09:34.160 of this simplistic

00:09:35.200 view of the world

00:09:36.160 that I've got. 1.00

00:09:36.860 I either have to kill 1.00

00:09:37.620 my enemy here 1.00

00:09:38.580 or I have to run

00:09:39.420 for my enemy.

00:09:40.420 That's what I've got to do.

00:09:41.560 So it's expressed

00:09:42.620 in that same way,

00:09:43.680 silence or violence.

00:09:45.320 And so the real challenge

00:09:46.620 is juicing your brain

00:09:48.300 back up

00:09:48.820 and starting to recognize

00:09:49.920 those aren't

00:09:50.380 your only options.

00:09:52.000 One of the consequences

00:09:53.140 of how we feel

00:09:54.920 during crucial conversations

00:09:56.200 is we start to adopt

00:09:58.340 this false belief

00:09:59.260 and we don't even realize

00:10:00.200 we have it.

00:10:01.520 But I'd urge

00:10:02.320 all of your listeners

00:10:03.440 to write this down

00:10:04.620 and to commit it

00:10:05.480 to memory

00:10:05.840 so you recognize

00:10:06.600 the next time

00:10:07.220 you're framing

00:10:08.020 your reality

00:10:08.740 in this way.

00:10:10.080 We often believe

00:10:11.000 we have to choose

00:10:11.980 between telling the truth

00:10:13.540 and keeping a friend.

00:10:16.000 And when you're thinking

00:10:17.700 those are your only two options,

00:10:19.360 that thought

00:10:19.900 is the problem.

00:10:21.180 Because the real challenge

00:10:22.660 is to figure out

00:10:23.480 how to do both.

00:10:24.640 And most of us

00:10:25.380 in irrational moments

00:10:26.360 realize you really

00:10:27.240 can't keep a friend

00:10:28.120 without telling the truth.

00:10:29.240 The only way forward

00:10:30.800 in a relationship

00:10:31.660 to high trust

00:10:33.100 and real collaboration

00:10:34.200 or connection

00:10:34.800 is for us to be able

00:10:36.060 to work through the problems.

00:10:37.040 In fact,

00:10:37.860 crucial conversations

00:10:38.820 are intimacy accelerants.

00:10:41.420 We've all had the experience

00:10:42.660 with somebody

00:10:43.300 of dreading

00:10:44.260 a crucial conversation

00:10:45.340 but getting to the other side of it

00:10:46.760 and there's almost

00:10:47.540 this euphoric sense

00:10:48.860 of connection,

00:10:50.080 of intimacy

00:10:50.720 if it was a loved one at home,

00:10:52.820 a feeling of trust

00:10:53.980 and relating again.

00:10:55.540 And that doesn't come

00:10:56.780 without going through

00:10:57.800 this difficult process together.

00:10:59.660 So reminding ourselves

00:11:01.020 there usually are ways

00:11:02.560 to both tell the truth

00:11:04.540 and keep a friend.

00:11:05.560 In fact,

00:11:06.120 doing one is the way

00:11:07.140 to do both. 0.99

00:11:08.440 And so the fool's choice 0.99

00:11:09.540 has to be transcended 1.00

00:11:10.800 before we'll even

00:11:11.720 entertain the possibility

00:11:13.520 that there's something better

00:11:14.940 on the other side.

00:11:16.180 And I imagine

00:11:16.500 there's a lot of social conditioning

00:11:17.640 going on there too.

00:11:19.280 Because I mean,

00:11:19.640 you grow up,

00:11:20.260 you watch Bambi,

00:11:21.100 you hear Thumper say,

00:11:22.640 if you can't say anything nice,

00:11:24.080 don't say anything at all.

00:11:25.200 And if you go to church,

00:11:26.180 you just,

00:11:26.400 there's emphasis on being nice,

00:11:27.560 don't rock the boat,

00:11:28.640 you've got to keep the connection.

00:11:30.200 And I've seen that

00:11:31.600 in family life,

00:11:32.900 friends,

00:11:33.420 in church congregations,

00:11:34.620 and like,

00:11:35.620 trying to be nice

00:11:36.480 often isn't the nice thing.

00:11:38.060 It just makes the problem worse.

00:11:40.060 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:40.460 We had a reprise Thumper 0.95

00:11:42.140 to say,

00:11:42.980 if you can't say something nice,

00:11:44.280 grow a tumor.

00:11:46.060 That's the outcome.

00:11:47.120 We'll just suppress

00:11:47.800 all of these concerns

00:11:48.760 that we've got

00:11:49.400 and it doesn't show up

00:11:50.760 in great ways.

00:11:51.760 And, you know,

00:11:52.220 interestingly,

00:11:52.840 you mentioned the church

00:11:54.500 or the religious context too.

00:11:56.160 So many will misunderstand

00:11:58.400 their own religious texts

00:12:00.160 and assume that

00:12:01.760 what their religion

00:12:02.500 is calling them to do

00:12:03.360 is just put up with stuff.

00:12:04.980 And there is not

00:12:05.960 a more robust example

00:12:07.920 of a community

00:12:09.180 that dealt with hard conversations

00:12:10.980 than some of the Christian texts.

00:12:13.080 And you can say the same

00:12:14.360 about Muslim

00:12:15.000 and Hindu

00:12:15.600 and others

00:12:16.100 and there are great examples there,

00:12:17.600 but if many of your listeners

00:12:18.800 are familiar with that,

00:12:20.120 you know,

00:12:20.400 Jesus wasn't somebody

00:12:21.340 that pushed it under the rug. 0.59

00:12:22.680 And it was a pretty fractious thing

00:12:25.120 at times.

00:12:25.720 The people that he gathered

00:12:26.940 around him,

00:12:27.720 they dealt with stuff.

00:12:28.860 But for some reason,

00:12:29.880 we misunderstand,

00:12:30.800 we misread that

00:12:31.700 and we start thinking

00:12:32.800 turning the other cheek

00:12:33.800 means not dealing with stuff.

00:12:35.620 That is not anywhere

00:12:37.440 in Christian text.

00:12:39.180 Yeah, if you read

00:12:39.500 the Gospels closely,

00:12:40.520 it's a lot of it's just

00:12:41.440 Jesus being annoyed

00:12:42.600 at people,

00:12:44.240 you know,

00:12:44.480 whether it's the Pharisees

00:12:45.400 or the scribes

00:12:45.820 or his own apostles

00:12:46.520 and he would confront them

00:12:47.720 very directly.

00:12:48.800 Yeah, he was not

00:12:50.920 not dealing with things.

00:12:53.100 Yeah.

00:12:53.640 So what is the goal

00:12:54.480 of a crucial conversation?

00:12:55.760 Is it agreement?

00:12:57.020 Is it compromise?

00:12:58.460 Because I think

00:12:58.980 when people think about

00:12:59.780 having a hard conversation,

00:13:01.540 they think the purpose

00:13:02.860 is to come

00:13:03.780 to some kind of agreement.

00:13:05.480 Yeah.

00:13:06.080 Yeah, it's unwise

00:13:07.640 to make agreement the goal

00:13:09.760 because then you tend

00:13:11.680 to force competition.

00:13:13.340 What we tend to do

00:13:14.560 in a crucial conversation

00:13:15.660 and unhealthy moments

00:13:16.800 is I'll share my point of view.

00:13:18.340 And then you'll try

00:13:19.140 to pick holes in it.

00:13:20.340 And then I hear your point of view

00:13:22.260 and I debate back.

00:13:23.620 But we think of agreement

00:13:25.160 as the natural outcome

00:13:26.460 of a healthy conversation,

00:13:27.920 not the objective.

00:13:29.700 So the objective

00:13:30.440 of a crucial conversation

00:13:31.740 is just to fill a pool

00:13:33.440 of common meaning

00:13:34.420 where we get both

00:13:35.700 of our perspectives

00:13:36.580 and experiences

00:13:37.880 and preferences

00:13:38.920 and everything

00:13:39.540 out there accessible

00:13:40.840 between both of them

00:13:41.460 and make them swim together,

00:13:43.280 stir it all together

00:13:44.160 and see if there's

00:13:44.940 better combinations

00:13:45.880 or better points of view

00:13:47.380 that come out

00:13:47.920 of having both of those.

00:13:49.420 Most synergy

00:13:50.100 and most problem solving

00:13:51.580 happens more naturally

00:13:53.040 if we just create

00:13:54.520 a climate

00:13:55.020 where we're just understanding

00:13:56.840 and appreciating

00:13:57.600 each other's points of view

00:13:58.820 and not trying

00:13:59.740 to drive for agreement.

00:14:01.360 The agreement

00:14:02.100 tends to follow naturally

00:14:03.260 as we develop

00:14:04.280 more of a sympathy

00:14:05.000 for others' perspectives,

00:14:06.280 more of an appreciation

00:14:07.340 for where they're coming from

00:14:08.640 and so filling

00:14:09.960 the pool of meaning,

00:14:10.920 create a common pool

00:14:11.780 of meaning

00:14:12.140 is our objective.

00:14:13.560 I thought that was

00:14:14.000 really useful

00:14:14.480 because I typically

00:14:15.200 go into these

00:14:15.780 kind of conversations

00:14:16.640 with the idea

00:14:17.860 like, okay,

00:14:18.400 we got to figure

00:14:19.140 this thing out

00:14:19.820 but you really don't know

00:14:20.880 what you're trying

00:14:21.540 to figure out

00:14:22.040 and you can't even

00:14:22.700 conceptualize

00:14:23.700 the potential outcome

00:14:24.940 because you really

00:14:26.180 don't know

00:14:26.480 the other person's

00:14:27.020 side of things

00:14:27.460 and what they're thinking

00:14:28.220 until you create

00:14:29.380 that shared pool

00:14:30.300 of meaning

00:14:30.720 and once you do,

00:14:32.380 that's going to change

00:14:33.320 what comes out

00:14:34.080 of that conversation.

00:14:35.380 Yeah.

00:14:36.020 Yeah, you know,

00:14:36.740 some people will hear that

00:14:37.720 and say,

00:14:38.100 well, that sounds

00:14:38.580 like a pretty wimpy

00:14:39.400 approach to conversation.

00:14:40.540 You got to come in

00:14:41.180 with a point of view,

00:14:42.020 argue for it,

00:14:43.080 prosecute it,

00:14:43.800 and that's how you come

00:14:45.240 to be persuasive.

00:14:46.560 Well, that might be good

00:14:47.320 on a TV game show

00:14:48.500 or a reality show

00:14:49.540 where there's no

00:14:50.500 ongoing relationship

00:14:51.500 or need for mutual

00:14:52.560 commitment

00:14:53.000 and executing on things

00:14:54.200 but the real point here

00:14:55.680 is it doesn't make you weak,

00:14:56.800 it makes you effective.

00:14:58.400 I once watched

00:14:59.180 a conversation

00:14:59.920 between a senior executive

00:15:01.240 who believed

00:15:01.880 that another executive

00:15:03.240 was embezzling

00:15:04.240 from the company

00:15:04.980 so, you know,

00:15:05.800 really difficult thing

00:15:06.720 to deal with

00:15:07.340 and the two of them

00:15:08.360 get together

00:15:08.820 to talk this through

00:15:09.780 and one obviously

00:15:11.520 expected denial

00:15:12.640 and obfuscation

00:15:13.680 and redirection

00:15:14.580 and all that kind of stuff

00:15:15.800 but he approached it

00:15:17.320 as filling the pool

00:15:18.440 of meaning

00:15:18.800 and how do you do that?

00:15:20.780 He started very honestly

00:15:21.960 with laying out

00:15:23.100 what he believes

00:15:24.260 was going on

00:15:25.460 and then all the evidence

00:15:27.260 to support that

00:15:28.240 and then says,

00:15:29.240 you know what,

00:15:29.560 I might be wrong,

00:15:30.340 maybe you're not embezzling

00:15:31.220 from the company

00:15:31.860 but here's all the evidence

00:15:33.340 I've got,

00:15:33.880 here's where I'm coming from

00:15:34.960 and I watched the other guy

00:15:36.220 kind of staring at this

00:15:37.640 for a moment,

00:15:38.200 he had expected hostility,

00:15:39.520 he expected to be able

00:15:40.780 to try to redirect

00:15:41.760 by saying he was being abused

00:15:43.720 and accused

00:15:44.280 that this was,

00:15:45.340 you know,

00:15:45.800 any other sort of thing

00:15:46.960 but instead

00:15:48.000 as it was just laid out

00:15:49.280 factually

00:15:49.920 and calmly

00:15:51.000 and appropriately

00:15:52.020 and confidently

00:15:53.380 not apologetically,

00:15:55.100 the other guy

00:15:55.540 basically looked at it

00:15:56.660 and said,

00:15:57.200 I think I need to resign

00:15:58.720 and basically confessed

00:16:01.260 and it was remarkable

00:16:03.380 to watch 0.99

00:16:04.160 when you suck defensiveness 0.90

00:16:05.860 out of a conversation,

00:16:07.100 the likelihood

00:16:07.980 of people coming

00:16:08.880 to a common view

00:16:09.780 increases dramatically

00:16:11.000 and the way 0.81

00:16:12.320 to suck out 0.97

00:16:12.920 the defensiveness

00:16:13.640 is to make the objective

00:16:15.040 to ensure

00:16:15.900 that both sides

00:16:16.820 are completely heard

00:16:18.580 and to just inquire

00:16:21.040 and explore

00:16:22.180 and be curious

00:16:23.200 about the other point of view

00:16:24.220 to allow all the meanings

00:16:25.000 in the pool

00:16:25.480 and then confidently

00:16:26.680 and appropriately

00:16:27.640 place your meaning

00:16:28.520 in the pool as well

00:16:29.480 and better things

00:16:30.800 tend to happen

00:16:31.340 when we do.

00:16:32.520 So something you talk about

00:16:33.500 is before you have

00:16:34.340 a crucial conversation,

00:16:35.500 you need to kind of

00:16:36.220 prepare your mind for it

00:16:37.340 and a big reason

00:16:38.540 a lot of crucial conversations

00:16:39.840 fail is because

00:16:40.700 the person is having

00:16:41.680 the wrong conversation.

00:16:43.680 They think they're talking

00:16:44.400 about the right topic

00:16:45.160 or having the right conversation

00:16:46.320 but they're not.

00:16:47.800 You say there are

00:16:48.440 three different kinds

00:16:49.280 of conversations

00:16:49.900 and you got to pick

00:16:50.980 the right one

00:16:51.800 for the issue.

00:16:52.960 We have this

00:16:53.520 little acronym

00:16:55.020 we call CPR

00:16:55.960 that many people

00:16:57.840 find incredibly useful

00:16:59.260 because it helps you

00:17:00.760 to tease out

00:17:01.520 the different kinds

00:17:02.300 of conversations

00:17:03.020 we could be trying

00:17:03.760 to have or should have.

00:17:05.040 The C stands

00:17:05.580 for content.

00:17:06.840 So let's say

00:17:07.360 you and I

00:17:08.220 ride share together

00:17:09.300 and we take turns

00:17:10.600 driving

00:17:11.120 and whenever it's

00:17:12.400 your turn to drive

00:17:13.260 you tend to show up

00:17:14.580 15, 20, 30 minutes late

00:17:16.260 and it really compromises

00:17:17.420 my schedule

00:17:18.060 and we've been driving

00:17:19.640 together for about a year

00:17:20.560 and this happens

00:17:21.140 about 50% of the time.

00:17:22.740 So now it's Thursday

00:17:24.580 you show up

00:17:25.540 and you're about

00:17:26.160 30 minutes late

00:17:26.900 I get in the car

00:17:27.600 and I say

00:17:28.020 doggone it Brett

00:17:28.820 you're late.

00:17:30.100 So there's the first mistake.

00:17:32.420 The first mistake

00:17:33.240 just let's take out

00:17:34.520 of this

00:17:34.940 that I'm being

00:17:36.000 too energetic

00:17:36.920 or aggressive

00:17:37.600 about this.

00:17:38.800 The real problem

00:17:39.700 here is the topic

00:17:40.600 is wrong

00:17:41.180 because I'm talking

00:17:42.380 to you at the content

00:17:43.440 level, the C level.

00:17:44.720 The content level

00:17:45.460 is the immediate

00:17:46.280 painter problem,

00:17:47.400 the immediate instance

00:17:48.500 of whatever the concern is.

00:17:50.160 The reason I'm so angry

00:17:51.480 and upset

00:17:52.020 is because I haven't

00:17:53.500 been dealing with

00:17:54.260 what is a longer pattern.

00:17:55.620 That's the P.

00:17:56.580 I've never addressed

00:17:57.600 it as a pattern

00:17:58.300 so I wait for one more instance

00:17:59.760 and then I blow

00:18:00.760 all of that upset

00:18:01.680 and energy out

00:18:02.460 through this particular instance.

00:18:04.260 That's a big mistake.

00:18:06.080 Don't talk about content

00:18:07.260 when your issue is pattern

00:18:08.440 and I've set it up

00:18:09.840 as a content issue as well

00:18:11.180 which also makes it

00:18:12.520 less likely

00:18:13.000 I'll get satisfaction

00:18:13.940 because you might

00:18:14.780 very well say

00:18:15.600 gosh I'm really sorry Joseph

00:18:17.300 I apologize

00:18:18.040 you know

00:18:18.560 I got up this morning

00:18:19.900 and there was only

00:18:20.460 five pounds of pressure

00:18:21.400 in my tire

00:18:22.140 and my pump at home

00:18:23.560 didn't work

00:18:24.180 and so I had to find

00:18:24.960 a gas station

00:18:25.760 and I put coins in one

00:18:27.580 and it didn't work

00:18:28.620 and so I had to find

00:18:29.300 two other gas station

00:18:30.060 I'm really sorry

00:18:30.880 it won't happen again

00:18:32.120 I'll leave a little bit earlier

00:18:33.120 so I make sure I'm on time.

00:18:35.040 Now in that moment

00:18:36.380 what many people will do

00:18:37.660 is feel like

00:18:38.260 all right well

00:18:39.200 he kind of apologized

00:18:40.120 kind of owned it

00:18:41.000 let's move on.

00:18:41.720 No he didn't

00:18:42.940 because your problem

00:18:43.920 was pattern

00:18:44.500 and all you did

00:18:45.660 was just solve

00:18:46.200 the content problem.

00:18:47.840 If you wait

00:18:48.280 for a new content issue

00:18:49.500 a new instance

00:18:50.360 of the problem

00:18:50.980 to occur

00:18:51.440 before you try

00:18:52.140 to talk about pattern

00:18:53.240 you lose

00:18:54.320 because it's going

00:18:56.260 to get mired down

00:18:57.240 in all of the

00:18:58.120 idiosyncratic things

00:18:59.300 that are part

00:18:59.800 of this particular instance

00:19:01.100 when that isn't

00:19:01.980 your concern

00:19:02.480 it's that 50%

00:19:03.540 of the time

00:19:04.200 over the last year

00:19:05.540 we've had this issue

00:19:06.840 so one of the first

00:19:08.120 pieces of advice

00:19:08.940 on this is

00:19:09.580 when you have

00:19:10.080 a pattern conversation

00:19:11.200 don't wait

00:19:12.240 for a new instance

00:19:13.180 of concern

00:19:13.840 to raise it

00:19:14.800 because then

00:19:15.740 you're going

00:19:16.080 to lose the point

00:19:17.280 create a special

00:19:18.440 opportunity

00:19:18.980 just to talk

00:19:19.880 about the pattern.

00:19:20.800 Brett

00:19:21.020 we've been driving

00:19:21.880 together for a year

00:19:22.880 over the last year

00:19:24.300 shame on me

00:19:25.040 haven't brought it up

00:19:25.940 but you know

00:19:26.560 I want to do it now

00:19:27.360 so we can figure

00:19:27.940 this out

00:19:28.320 you tend to show

00:19:28.940 up late

00:19:29.780 15 to 30 minutes

00:19:30.840 late about half

00:19:31.620 the time

00:19:32.200 now we're on

00:19:33.100 the right topic

00:19:33.840 the final

00:19:34.860 kind of conversation

00:19:36.340 the R in CPR

00:19:37.620 so content pattern

00:19:39.100 and then the R 0.88

00:19:40.080 is a relationship

00:19:41.320 conversation

00:19:42.160 this is a conversation

00:19:43.640 where it isn't

00:19:44.820 that there's a pattern

00:19:45.940 of concern anymore

00:19:46.980 it's that

00:19:48.180 I don't trust you

00:19:49.360 anymore

00:19:49.800 or I don't respect you

00:19:51.600 or I don't think

00:19:52.200 you respect me

00:19:53.120 so trust

00:19:54.380 competence

00:19:54.800 and respect

00:19:55.520 are the three

00:19:56.680 things that tend

00:19:57.700 to describe

00:19:58.500 relationship concerns

00:19:59.940 so for example

00:20:01.340 if I keep giving

00:20:02.320 you faulty work

00:20:03.360 you delegate

00:20:04.380 assignments to me

00:20:05.320 and I'm getting

00:20:05.820 back to it poorly

00:20:07.120 and the real issue

00:20:08.180 is that it looks

00:20:08.880 like I've got

00:20:09.300 bad grammar

00:20:10.020 in some of my

00:20:10.680 written communication

00:20:11.940 and you want

00:20:13.380 to talk with me

00:20:14.060 about this concern

00:20:15.200 you know

00:20:15.800 I just say

00:20:16.220 hey Joseph

00:20:16.700 the last two

00:20:17.460 things you wrote

00:20:18.120 had some mistakes

00:20:19.020 you know

00:20:19.820 that would be

00:20:20.280 content stuff

00:20:21.100 or this tends

00:20:22.000 to happen

00:20:22.440 consistently

00:20:23.120 that would be

00:20:23.900 a pattern

00:20:24.300 conversation

00:20:24.920 if your real

00:20:25.720 conclusion is

00:20:26.480 Joseph

00:20:26.840 you're not good

00:20:27.820 at written

00:20:28.140 communication

00:20:28.820 that's a

00:20:29.460 competence problem

00:20:30.360 and that isn't

00:20:31.280 solved by you

00:20:32.040 just pointing out

00:20:32.780 a couple of

00:20:33.220 mistakes and me

00:20:33.920 trying to be

00:20:34.340 more attentive

00:20:34.880 you think I

00:20:36.040 have bad grammar

00:20:36.900 you don't think

00:20:37.540 I know how

00:20:37.940 to construct

00:20:38.400 a paragraph

00:20:38.940 and that requires

00:20:40.120 a much bigger

00:20:40.880 solution

00:20:41.420 so before you

00:20:42.820 open your mouth

00:20:43.660 identify

00:20:44.620 is this a

00:20:45.300 content pattern

00:20:46.160 or relationship

00:20:46.780 conversation

00:20:47.600 tease that out

00:20:48.520 and then hold

00:20:49.480 yourself accountable

00:20:50.320 to address the

00:20:51.060 right thing

00:20:51.600 I can see

00:20:52.580 that happening

00:20:53.440 that confusion

00:20:54.400 happening in

00:20:54.920 marital disputes

00:20:55.880 like you know

00:20:57.140 husband doesn't 0.94

00:20:58.860 turn on the

00:20:59.700 dishwasher at night

00:21:00.500 or something

00:21:00.940 and for the wife

00:21:02.180 it's like a

00:21:02.500 relationship thing

00:21:03.300 it's not the

00:21:04.180 fact that he's

00:21:04.740 not turning on

00:21:05.280 the dishwasher

00:21:05.740 it's like what

00:21:06.200 it represents

00:21:06.860 about the

00:21:08.180 relationship

00:21:08.400 well you don't

00:21:08.840 respect me

00:21:09.580 you're not

00:21:10.100 considerate

00:21:10.680 and the husband

00:21:11.320 might say

00:21:11.760 okay sorry

00:21:12.420 I'll turn on

00:21:12.800 the dishwasher

00:21:13.280 but for the

00:21:14.280 wife she's not 1.00

00:21:14.860 feeling like

00:21:15.240 he's competent

00:21:16.120 she feels like

00:21:17.040 she can't trust

00:21:17.820 him to take

00:21:18.180 care of things

00:21:18.740 so it's like

00:21:19.340 it's not really

00:21:20.200 about the

00:21:20.560 dishwasher

00:21:21.000 it's a

00:21:21.580 relationship

00:21:22.000 issue

00:21:22.440 yeah

00:21:22.960 yeah

00:21:23.560 yeah I'll

00:21:24.340 give you an

00:21:24.660 example of

00:21:25.240 that so

00:21:25.760 I've traveled

00:21:26.640 a lot in

00:21:27.120 my career

00:21:27.760 and I think

00:21:29.020 I'd been

00:21:29.480 married for

00:21:30.120 about 13

00:21:31.320 years or

00:21:31.960 something at

00:21:32.500 the time

00:21:33.020 and so our

00:21:33.800 kids were

00:21:34.140 getting a

00:21:34.460 little older

00:21:34.980 and were

00:21:35.880 aware of

00:21:36.300 different

00:21:36.520 dynamics

00:21:37.040 between us

00:21:37.760 and at

00:21:38.000 one point

00:21:38.460 the kids

00:21:38.920 said dad

00:21:39.680 we want to

00:21:40.500 have a

00:21:40.880 conversation

00:21:41.380 with you

00:21:41.820 and you

00:21:42.500 know I

00:21:42.680 got that

00:21:43.000 little tummy

00:21:43.580 tickle and 0.99

00:21:44.200 nervousness

00:21:44.780 and sat

00:21:45.160 down and

00:21:45.680 they were

00:21:46.200 pretty prepared

00:21:46.780 for this

00:21:47.300 and basically

00:21:47.900 they started

00:21:48.440 out with

00:21:48.800 saying dad

00:21:49.240 we don't like

00:21:49.700 it when you

00:21:50.040 come home

00:21:50.580 that was a

00:21:51.620 big bomb

00:21:52.080 to drop

00:21:52.480 now there

00:21:53.080 could have

00:21:53.340 been better

00:21:53.780 ways for

00:21:54.320 them to

00:21:54.660 open this

00:21:55.180 topic but

00:21:56.360 they had a

00:21:56.920 relationship

00:21:57.420 conversation to

00:21:58.360 hold and

00:21:58.740 their grievance

00:21:59.340 with me was

00:22:00.040 that mom has

00:22:01.100 a certain way

00:22:01.720 of doing

00:22:02.120 things and

00:22:02.700 all of a

00:22:03.000 sudden when

00:22:03.300 dad comes

00:22:03.840 home the

00:22:04.280 rules all

00:22:04.800 change and

00:22:05.740 it's miserable

00:22:06.280 to try to

00:22:06.780 have to deal

00:22:07.260 with two

00:22:07.620 different

00:22:07.900 regimes and

00:22:08.820 we don't

00:22:09.160 like that

00:22:09.720 and so I'd

00:22:10.660 come home

00:22:11.120 and I

00:22:11.440 realized as

00:22:12.080 they said

00:22:12.480 this I

00:22:12.840 did feel

00:22:13.240 like I had

00:22:13.660 to reset

00:22:14.120 things to

00:22:14.680 the truthful

00:22:15.400 and proper

00:22:15.960 way for

00:22:16.380 things to

00:22:16.740 operate because

00:22:17.260 she wasn't

00:22:17.740 managing it

00:22:18.320 right and

00:22:18.720 so she had

00:22:19.620 issues with

00:22:20.080 me that she

00:22:20.520 wanted to

00:22:20.860 address they

00:22:21.700 were relationship

00:22:22.440 things about

00:22:23.260 respect and

00:22:24.520 about care and

00:22:25.320 compassion for

00:22:26.040 other people they

00:22:27.040 were not just

00:22:27.500 about patterns of

00:22:28.340 behavior and

00:22:29.580 much of the

00:22:30.420 improvement that

00:22:31.180 later came in

00:22:31.800 our family came

00:22:32.460 because we had

00:22:33.200 that relationship

00:22:34.180 conversation with

00:22:35.280 each other

00:22:35.720 okay so a

00:22:36.500 conversation can

00:22:37.160 happen on three

00:22:37.940 levels there's

00:22:38.600 content which is

00:22:39.420 an immediate

00:22:39.840 instance of

00:22:40.520 whatever the

00:22:41.180 problem or the

00:22:41.960 concern is there's

00:22:43.160 pattern that's when

00:22:44.020 a problem is

00:22:44.520 occurring regularly

00:22:45.300 and then there's

00:22:46.300 relationship that's

00:22:47.540 where the problem

00:22:48.140 is causing an

00:22:48.940 issue that's

00:22:49.400 making it hard

00:22:50.000 for someone to

00:22:50.520 trust or

00:22:51.460 respect the

00:22:52.220 other person or

00:22:52.980 feel they're

00:22:53.720 competent and

00:22:54.800 you got to know

00:22:55.460 which kind of

00:22:56.220 conversation you're

00:22:56.800 having we're

00:22:58.420 gonna take a quick

00:22:58.780 break for your

00:22:59.280 words from our

00:22:59.660 sponsors all

00:23:01.700 right so for

00:23:02.180 most of my

00:23:02.580 adult life my

00:23:03.280 skincare routine

00:23:04.060 was basically

00:23:04.500 splash water on

00:23:05.380 my face and

00:23:06.040 then just hope

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00:25:32.280 back to the show so

00:25:33.780 another thing you talk

00:25:34.460 about is that each person

00:25:35.540 is coming into the

00:25:36.340 conversation with a story

00:25:38.120 that they're telling

00:25:39.140 themselves about what's

00:25:40.020 going on and their

00:25:41.260 feelings are flowing out

00:25:42.960 of that story so it's

00:25:44.120 important to get a handle

00:25:44.980 on that story and make

00:25:46.500 sure it's true oh boy I

00:25:48.560 mean that this is of all

00:25:50.460 of the personal work I've

00:25:52.140 done on crucial

00:25:52.840 conversations over the

00:25:54.460 last 35 years this has

00:25:57.280 been my my central focus

00:25:59.080 it's learning to master my

00:26:00.380 story if you can develop

00:26:02.660 control over your emotions

00:26:04.100 in your life a mastery and

00:26:05.700 an understanding of your

00:26:06.700 own emotions you can

00:26:07.880 master your life this is

00:26:09.520 the key to intimacy to

00:26:10.700 connection to being able

00:26:11.820 to work well and build

00:26:12.900 trust with other people

00:26:14.000 it's recognizing that when

00:26:16.020 emotions flare up they

00:26:17.760 can corrupt your capacity

00:26:19.040 to have a crucial

00:26:19.740 conversation they are not

00:26:21.480 a function of what

00:26:22.300 happened they are not a

00:26:23.860 function of what somebody

00:26:24.720 just did they're a

00:26:25.700 function of them doing

00:26:27.080 something and then you

00:26:28.000 telling yourself a story

00:26:29.220 about it so I I share

00:26:31.360 this example of again

00:26:33.060 early in our marriage when I

00:26:34.320 was traveling a lot we

00:26:36.000 would have you know kind

00:26:37.420 of an adjustment when I

00:26:38.440 came back home I remember

00:26:39.360 at one point I came home

00:26:41.180 late at night kids were

00:26:42.320 at bed and I had been a

00:26:43.740 long week it's a Friday

00:26:44.840 and I walk in this was

00:26:46.440 one we had wall phones if

00:26:48.200 any of your listeners were

00:26:49.320 alive during that time and

00:26:51.260 I remember walking by this

00:26:52.460 wall phone and I looked

00:26:54.320 across the room and my

00:26:55.920 wife is sitting there she's 1.00

00:26:57.120 relaxed it's the end of

00:26:58.180 her day she's got a book

00:26:59.320 open and I looked at her

00:27:01.100 with this adoring kind of

00:27:02.320 gaze and all of a sudden

00:27:03.400 the phone rang and that

00:27:05.400 was a moment of decision

00:27:06.320 for me it was a moment of

00:27:08.500 decision of whether I'm

00:27:09.380 going to pick it up or

00:27:10.260 not right I'm looking at

00:27:11.900 the love of my life the

00:27:12.980 two of us have an

00:27:13.680 opportunity to have a

00:27:14.420 little quiet moment and

00:27:15.380 reconnect but the phone is

00:27:16.780 ringing and I picked it

00:27:18.300 up now a lot of people

00:27:20.200 won't believe what I'm

00:27:20.960 about to say but as I turn

00:27:22.940 towards the wall and put

00:27:24.680 the phone up to my ear and

00:27:26.040 heard the voice of my

00:27:27.000 administrative assistant

00:27:27.940 saying hey I knew you're

00:27:29.220 getting home right now

00:27:30.100 there were just three

00:27:30.720 things I needed to address

00:27:31.720 before tomorrow morning

00:27:32.760 and then she launches in 0.96

00:27:34.140 on this I felt this

00:27:35.420 burning sensation in my

00:27:36.920 back I mean it was a

00:27:38.520 physical tangible kind of

00:27:41.260 thing and I looked around

00:27:42.100 to find the source of it

00:27:43.140 and there was Sela across

00:27:44.500 the room staring at me

00:27:45.760 with just this absolutely

00:27:47.900 deadly stare and that was

00:27:50.740 a moment too I had an

00:27:52.360 opportunity there I

00:27:53.800 experienced some emotion

00:27:54.980 when I saw that look on

00:27:56.460 her face now it would have

00:27:58.200 been easy for me in that

00:27:59.140 moment to tell myself the

00:28:01.100 reason I'm feeling how I'm

00:28:02.280 feeling right now resentful

00:28:03.800 and hurt and defensive is

00:28:06.080 because she's being

00:28:07.260 insensitive because she's 1.00

00:28:09.260 being uncaring because she's

00:28:11.840 judging me because she she

00:28:13.240 she see so we tend to tell

00:28:14.940 ourselves that our emotions

00:28:16.080 are a function of what's

00:28:17.300 happening to us of what

00:28:18.540 others do and the beginning

00:28:20.340 of all capacity to manage my

00:28:23.060 emotional life begins with me

00:28:24.820 accepting the fact that it

00:28:26.440 does not that it comes from

00:28:28.340 the story I'm telling myself

00:28:30.000 about what that other

00:28:31.020 person is doing I was

00:28:33.280 telling myself a story that

00:28:34.940 she was being judgmental that

00:28:36.820 she was being rude that she

00:28:38.280 was being inappropriate I

00:28:40.160 had these stories I was

00:28:41.540 telling myself about how

00:28:42.920 insensitive and how

00:28:44.280 impatient and how selfish she 0.71

00:28:46.360 is and so I looked back at

00:28:48.680 her and rolled my eyes not my

00:28:50.940 best shining moment but

00:28:52.920 completely dismissed the

00:28:54.560 frustration and concern she

00:28:55.840 was experienced and continued my

00:28:57.180 conversation I heard her book

00:28:58.920 slam shut she stomped upstairs 0.96

00:29:00.940 and we didn't talk the rest of

00:29:02.140 the night now this is a long a

00:29:04.160 long time ago and I think I've

00:29:05.500 grown a little bit since then

00:29:07.080 but as you break all of that

00:29:08.820 down none of that had to do with

00:29:10.340 me answering a phone or with her

00:29:12.980 staring at me I in a deadly

00:29:15.140 looking way it had to do with the

00:29:17.260 stories we were both telling

00:29:18.480 ourselves about that the three

00:29:20.100 kinds of stories we tend to tell

00:29:21.800 in these crucial moments are number

00:29:23.860 one a victim story when something

00:29:26.400 is happening that we don't like

00:29:28.500 we tend to make ourselves out to

00:29:30.180 be innocent sufferers and that's

00:29:31.740 what I did in that moment I've

00:29:33.320 been working all week I've been

00:29:34.560 on the road I come home and this

00:29:35.960 is the kind of treatment I get I

00:29:37.700 look at all my virtues and

00:29:39.280 absolutely none of my vices and

00:29:41.700 then with the other person we tell

00:29:43.020 a villain story if I want to be

00:29:44.940 rude to the love of my life and

00:29:47.320 feel good about it if I want to be

00:29:49.660 able to justify myself in doing bad

00:29:52.000 things to good people who don't

00:29:53.640 deserve it I need three kinds of

00:29:55.680 stories first a victim story second

00:29:57.520 a villain story I need to think

00:29:59.760 about her and think of only her

00:30:01.760 vices and none of her virtues think 1.00

00:30:04.180 of all of the worst weaknesses I

00:30:05.900 can paint on her and then I feel

00:30:07.780 justified in mistreating her and

00:30:09.780 finally I need a helpless story I

00:30:11.940 need a story that makes me

00:30:12.980 helpless to do anything other than

00:30:15.000 the petty little thing the hiding or

00:30:17.000 the sneering or whatever it is

00:30:18.880 that's coming out for me right now

00:30:20.160 that I'm doing so victim villain

00:30:22.160 and helpless that's what we mean by

00:30:24.260 master my stories it's learning to

00:30:25.840 take responsibility for and be aware

00:30:27.880 of our tendency to tell those three

00:30:30.020 kinds of stories during these

00:30:31.360 crucial moments and then to set them

00:30:33.380 right yeah I know I do the villain

00:30:35.420 thing whenever someone does

00:30:36.880 something that I don't like the

00:30:38.960 tendencies that jump to the worst

00:30:39.960 conclusion like oh this guy's just

00:30:41.480 he's he's out to get me and then

00:30:43.740 when you actually talk to him like

00:30:44.840 oh man I'm really sorry I've had a

00:30:46.400 lot going on and I didn't really

00:30:48.380 address that I think there's that

00:30:49.820 story I think Stephen Covey talks

00:30:51.400 about in his book where he's on the

00:30:52.520 subway and there's these kids just

00:30:55.080 going crazy and the dad's not doing

00:30:57.400 anything and Stephen Covey's like

00:30:58.820 look at this deadbeat dad he's not

00:31:00.120 taking care of his kids and he says

00:31:03.140 sir can you do something about your

00:31:04.060 kids and the dad was like oh I'm

00:31:06.040 really sorry we're just coming back

00:31:07.020 from my wife's funeral and I

00:31:08.520 imagine they're like a gut punch like

00:31:11.320 oh man I made this guy a villain he's

00:31:13.980 going through a hard time yeah and we

00:31:17.120 get there so naturally so quickly

00:31:19.160 now some people will listen to this

00:31:21.060 conversation we're having and say but

00:31:22.520 there are villains out there and

00:31:24.460 that's true there are times where

00:31:25.740 somebody lied to you they stole from

00:31:27.280 you they embezzled from your company

00:31:28.600 as we talked about before but

00:31:30.580 oftentimes the story is more

00:31:31.820 complicated than just that too does

00:31:34.260 that mean we let them off the hook

00:31:35.420 no but it would change our emotional

00:31:37.560 response to them we had a guy that

00:31:40.340 worked for our company many years ago

00:31:42.080 who we were in a building with

00:31:44.360 another firm and we owned the

00:31:46.320 building so they were subletting from

00:31:47.720 us and we found out from this tenant

00:31:50.100 of ours that somebody from our company

00:31:52.100 had stolen from them had broken into

00:31:53.660 their office and stolen things and I had

00:31:56.480 to sit down with this particular

00:31:57.860 employee and address that and I remember

00:32:01.240 first of all being incensed and

00:32:03.180 embarrassed and all of that and of

00:32:04.600 course he was let go but it turned out

00:32:06.800 that he was struggling with drug

00:32:08.260 addiction and his marriage was falling

00:32:10.160 apart he had seven children at home and

00:32:12.320 there was a lot more to the story and

00:32:14.780 I ended up after letting him go

00:32:16.600 taking him to lunch a few times and

00:32:18.260 checking in and and just because I

00:32:20.260 cared about whether he was going to

00:32:21.520 get through this awful time in his life

00:32:23.160 as well so there there is no necessary

00:32:26.320 opposition between holding people

00:32:28.600 accountable dealing with things

00:32:29.920 truthfully and also making sure you

00:32:31.860 get to the right story that you get

00:32:33.900 more meaning in the pool so that we

00:32:35.380 have a proper appreciation for even

00:32:37.360 villains aren't just villains and

00:32:39.360 you're not always a completely innocent

00:32:41.180 victim and you're not helpless to show

00:32:43.920 up in a in a more mature and

00:32:45.360 appropriate way too there are better

00:32:47.380 ways through this we can tell the

00:32:48.760 truth and keep a friend okay so that's

00:32:51.080 what you do before the conversation

00:32:52.180 kind of prepare yourself for this

00:32:53.600 crucial conversation figure out what is

00:32:55.780 the topic of the conversation actually

00:32:57.200 is it content pattern relationship get

00:32:59.540 my story straight master my stories am I

00:33:01.860 painting this person as a villain am I

00:33:03.220 painting myself as a just a victim

00:33:05.140 who's as pure as the newly driven snow

00:33:07.680 or you know I'm painting myself as

00:33:09.160 helpless and then I think the

00:33:10.360 important thing you talked about

00:33:11.060 earlier is once you decide you need

00:33:13.400 to have the conversation don't delay

00:33:14.880 because I think that was really key

00:33:17.400 that if you have too much lag between

00:33:19.880 the event and the conversation it's

00:33:22.840 just going to get worse than idea if

00:33:24.160 you don't talk about it you act it out

00:33:25.980 I think that was because I've seen

00:33:27.820 that in my own life I think if you're

00:33:29.780 in a marriage or even in a business

00:33:30.900 or church you see that where you don't

00:33:32.600 talk about the thing and then you

00:33:33.600 just start acting resentful towards the

00:33:35.140 person you kind of just give them like

00:33:37.180 a sideways look you ignore them you

00:33:39.620 dismiss them and nothing's ever

00:33:41.800 solved so you got to rip off the

00:33:43.440 band-aid basically so you mentioned

00:33:45.180 the typical response people often have

00:33:47.200 to crucial conversations is silence or

00:33:49.580 violence so they either just clam up

00:33:51.220 and just ignore it and try to not rock

00:33:53.300 the boat or violence which is just

00:33:55.360 lashing out arguing being combative and

00:33:59.240 a big reason why people do that is

00:34:01.060 because they don't feel safety they

00:34:03.180 don't feel psychological safety and I

00:34:06.000 think often people misinterpret this

00:34:07.640 idea of safety as comfort or being

00:34:10.760 nice but you argue that safety actually

00:34:13.200 allows you to be more candid and

00:34:14.740 unapologetic with the truth not less

00:34:17.160 tell us about that yeah and so here's

00:34:19.240 here's the thing I you know we've done

00:34:20.840 a lot of consulting in health care and

00:34:23.020 it's fascinating to me that I think

00:34:25.600 I've got a friend right now who's in

00:34:27.240 the hospital that there are people on

00:34:29.320 this planet that you're willing to walk

00:34:31.060 into a room with lay down on a table and 1.00

00:34:33.580 let them cut you open with a knife 0.99

00:34:35.120 you're willing to do that right and the 0.99

00:34:37.340 reason you're willing to do that is

00:34:38.520 because you feel safe with them you

00:34:40.560 believe that they care about your

00:34:41.660 problem you believe that they're

00:34:42.900 competent to help you solve it we call

00:34:45.040 them surgeons obviously and we ought to

00:34:47.780 limit it to just people with that

00:34:49.260 classification but we're willing to go

00:34:52.300 through uncomfortable things with

00:34:53.800 people if there's a reason to do it and

00:34:55.680 if we feel safe with them what we know

00:34:57.780 about crucial conversations is that you

00:35:00.080 and I tend to believe that the best

00:35:01.940 predictor of the outcome of a

00:35:04.380 conversation is how risky the topic is

00:35:06.300 and that isn't true at all we think I

00:35:08.220 couldn't approach somebody and tell

00:35:09.480 them I think they stole from the

00:35:10.560 company or that they're incompetent or 0.97

00:35:13.020 that they're racist or whatever it is

00:35:14.860 we couldn't do that without them

00:35:16.540 getting defensive well that just isn't

00:35:18.140 true we've seen over the years that

00:35:20.240 there is no correlation between the

00:35:22.540 outcome of a conversation and how risky

00:35:24.520 the topic is the only correlation is

00:35:26.940 with how safe the people feel

00:35:28.500 discussing the topic I mentioned

00:35:30.780 Kerry Patterson my writing partner

00:35:32.580 early on and one of the first

00:35:35.000 conversations I had with him about

00:35:36.640 writing I had written a white paper

00:35:39.000 on some topic I handed it over to him

00:35:40.980 he gave it back and I said what do you

00:35:43.240 think and he said it's boring he said

00:35:46.400 it's it's turgid it's vapid and it was

00:35:49.040 interesting to me because normally I

00:35:51.060 would have felt really tight and

00:35:52.800 offended inside but for some reason

00:35:55.280 that information got through to me

00:35:57.500 perfectly fine why because I knew he

00:35:59.880 invested a lot of time reading that

00:36:01.560 paper and he wanted me to be a good

00:36:03.160 writer and that that was his sole

00:36:05.140 motivation in sharing that when you

00:36:07.360 believe that when you believe two

00:36:08.960 things you feel safe with people and

00:36:10.920 this is your first task in a crucial

00:36:12.500 conversation in the first 30 seconds

00:36:15.040 you've got to generate evidence for

00:36:16.800 them of two things the first is that

00:36:19.700 you care about their problems interests

00:36:21.700 and concerns almost as much as they do

00:36:24.380 just like the doctor you know that that

00:36:26.960 doctor cares about the fact that I've

00:36:28.860 got racking back pain and he wants to

00:36:30.820 help me fix it you care about their

00:36:32.580 problems interests and concerns as soon

00:36:34.600 as they believe that they do this they

00:36:36.240 go

00:36:36.440 so I needed to have a crucial

00:36:39.880 conversations with an employee many

00:36:41.580 years ago who I had concluded was

00:36:44.580 incompetent at some really fundamental

00:36:46.460 parts of his job he was terrible at

00:36:48.240 managing projects and terrible at

00:36:50.240 managing people he was a great

00:36:52.240 designer great graphic designer but we

00:36:54.200 tried to grow a department underneath

00:36:55.880 them and he was terrible at projects

00:36:58.140 and managing people and so that was the

00:37:00.520 message I needed to get across it was a

00:37:02.060 big relationship conversation and and I

00:37:04.560 started that conversation not giving

00:37:06.220 myself all the credit a lot of it goes

00:37:07.860 to him that he cared about these things

00:37:09.400 but I said hey I'll call him Paul I said

00:37:12.560 hey Paul I need I need to have a pretty

00:37:14.600 heavy conversation with him and he knew

00:37:16.400 of course there was stress and

00:37:17.740 disappointment he knew that things

00:37:19.400 weren't working well but I said I want

00:37:21.980 you to know that my sole motivation in

00:37:24.300 this conversation is to help you win

00:37:26.260 here I want you to have a wonderful

00:37:29.100 work experience here I want you to be

00:37:30.880 here for a very long time you've made a

00:37:33.220 great contribution in the past and

00:37:35.020 things just aren't working right now and

00:37:36.660 I want to talk about that and figure it

00:37:38.440 out and I watched him take a really deep

00:37:41.540 breath and you could almost watch his

00:37:43.580 soul open he just sat back and it was

00:37:46.480 kind of like somebody saying to the

00:37:48.040 doctor go ahead and do surgery here

00:37:49.600 because I know something needs to be

00:37:51.020 done I felt such permission from him

00:37:53.600 such vulnerability from him why because

00:37:56.540 he trusted my motive he trusted that I

00:37:59.160 really did care about his problems

00:38:00.960 interests and concerns so that's point

00:38:03.140 one in the first 30 seconds of a crucial

00:38:05.500 conversation you need to make it clear

00:38:07.220 that you have mutual purpose that you

00:38:09.520 care about those problems interests

00:38:11.260 concerns and second you need to make

00:38:13.060 sure the other person knows you care

00:38:14.560 about and respect them so mutual

00:38:17.040 purpose and mutual respect are what we

00:38:19.420 call the conditions for psychological

00:38:21.400 safety they believe that not only do I

00:38:24.280 care about your problems but I also just

00:38:25.640 care about you as a human being and I

00:38:27.000 respect you so Paul this person that I'm

00:38:29.660 talking to here he got it that I love

00:38:32.080 him and that I like working with him and

00:38:34.620 then I respect him and he's then able to

00:38:37.020 take a deep breath and open himself up

00:38:39.480 and be vulnerable and we had a great

00:38:40.980 conversation where at the end he agreed

00:38:42.680 to take a salary reduction eventually we

00:38:45.040 grandfathered him and kind of moved him

00:38:46.600 gradually there to move out of a

00:38:48.040 management position more into a

00:38:49.800 technical position and that this was

00:38:51.120 best for him it worked it went there

00:38:53.360 why because he felt safe you and I tend

00:38:56.700 to believe that when others get defensive

00:38:58.360 and combative it's because they're

00:39:00.080 arrogant or mean or rude or manipulative 0.87

00:39:02.480 or whatever it's generally about a lack

00:39:05.060 of psychological safety and that's an

00:39:07.080 empowering thing for us to learn so how

00:39:09.980 do you do that because I imagine in a in

00:39:12.280 long-standing relationships what helps

00:39:14.520 is you've already established a track

00:39:16.000 record over time that shows that you

00:39:17.560 care and can be trusted but you're also

00:39:19.840 saying that you can establish that

00:39:21.140 psychological safety in the first 30

00:39:23.460 seconds of a conversation so how do you

00:39:25.540 convey that how do you convey hey I

00:39:27.300 respect you I care about you right in

00:39:29.080 that moment I'm going to differentiate

00:39:30.820 here between some gimmick or technique and

00:39:33.300 just what really needs to happen your job is

00:39:35.800 to generate evidence and that can happen

00:39:38.100 in a lot of different ways if it's with

00:39:40.180 a loved one sometimes it's putting your

00:39:42.140 hand on their knee sometimes it's leaning

00:39:44.100 forward and I and offering a warm smile

00:39:47.760 sometimes it's breaking tension with a

00:39:49.980 joke because sometimes a joke shows that

00:39:53.140 it's a relaxed situation and that you feel

00:39:55.420 safe and therefore they can too there are

00:39:57.000 lots of non-verbal ways of doing it one of

00:40:00.120 the best ways to do it verbally is what we

00:40:01.900 call a contrasting statement it's telling

00:40:04.320 people what you do and don't want that's

00:40:06.720 what I did with Paul I told him look I

00:40:09.240 don't want to come in here and just

00:40:10.820 criticize and tear you down and point out

00:40:12.680 everything is wrong I want to get to a

00:40:14.660 place where you are joyful and happy and

00:40:17.080 and I and feel successful in your work you

00:40:20.620 describe what you don't want and what you

00:40:22.480 do want the most important part of that

00:40:24.480 message is the don't want part because

00:40:26.960 their brain the threatened part of them is

00:40:29.360 going to tell them that that is what you

00:40:31.380 want that you want to hurt them that you

00:40:32.740 want to insult them that you're just trying

00:40:34.120 to downsize you just want to get rid of an

00:40:35.760 employee or or they've disagreed with you

00:40:38.260 in the past and this is revenge they're

00:40:39.740 going to make all that stuff up and that's

00:40:41.360 their story so letting them know what it

00:40:43.620 isn't is a critical part of constructing

00:40:46.000 that first sentence but if that sentence

00:40:47.980 doesn't work you've got to keep generating

00:40:50.200 evidence sometimes it's apologizing Paul

00:40:53.280 I've let this go for a long time I've let

00:40:55.200 this build and accumulate that's my fault

00:40:57.420 I'm sorry and I apologize that this

00:41:00.140 conversation is now bigger than it should

00:41:01.860 be and I'm willing to take my

00:41:02.980 responsibility for that in any of those

00:41:05.820 things that you do that demonstrate I

00:41:07.640 care about you and respect you and I care

00:41:09.900 about these your problems interests and

00:41:11.300 concerns can possibly help the other

00:41:14.120 person get the signal that they're safe

00:41:16.600 and then be able to engage in the

00:41:18.500 conversation this does not mean the

00:41:20.480 conversation will be pleasant it might be

00:41:22.800 really hard might be really difficult but

00:41:24.840 you'll feel safe you'll be able to hear

00:41:26.920 yeah and then you can add to that shared

00:41:28.940 pool of meaning exactly one of the hardest

00:41:31.920 conversations to have is whenever you

00:41:34.220 disagree with someone on a value level so

00:41:37.760 maybe it's a political disagreement with

00:41:39.900 your loud uncle at Thanksgiving or maybe a

00:41:42.740 strategic disagreement at work or maybe

00:41:44.800 disagree with your spouse about how to raise

00:41:47.980 your kids how do you find a shared goal when

00:41:51.600 your immediate objectives are completely

00:41:54.140 opposite yeah now you've used a few

00:41:56.720 different words there that I want to

00:41:57.880 parse out because they're very important

00:41:59.680 I think it's very very rare when we have

00:42:02.640 value disagreements it's very very common

00:42:05.820 for us to have strategy disagreements it's

00:42:08.680 all about the way something is being

00:42:10.320 executed so you think about the massive

00:42:12.140 political divide we've got in the United

00:42:13.740 States now I defy you to find two people

00:42:16.840 with polar opposite views that can't sit in

00:42:19.240 a room long enough to understand that a

00:42:22.040 lot of their strong advocacy of polar

00:42:24.500 opposite opinions is trying to achieve

00:42:27.960 values that both of them value and so

00:42:30.380 sometimes digging down deeper and

00:42:32.640 understanding no you know so let's say we

00:42:34.740 disagree on immigration most people at the

00:42:37.760 end of the conversation will agree that we

00:42:39.600 have a primary responsibility to the citizens

00:42:42.120 of our country and we also ought to care

00:42:44.100 about citizens of other countries too but we

00:42:46.500 have a primary responsibility there that we

00:42:48.480 need to make sure our economy works and

00:42:50.160 that it can sustain support for the people

00:42:52.820 that it has primary responsibility for when

00:42:55.400 you start getting down to the values level

00:42:57.500 you'll find there's there's usually more

00:42:59.980 ready agreement I'll give you an example of

00:43:01.600 that so I once had a late night flight to

00:43:05.160 London had a speech the next morning the

00:43:07.180 flight was delayed got in at like one o'clock

00:43:09.080 in the morning got into my black taxi at the

00:43:11.180 Heathrow Airport and I just wanted to rest on

00:43:13.440 the way to hotel to sleep as much as I could

00:43:15.220 before the next day and I noticed the taxi

00:43:17.860 driver kept turning around looking at me and

00:43:20.340 finally he said in a really aggressive voice

00:43:23.040 he said are you American and I said yes I 0.99

00:43:25.360 am and he said your president is a murderer 0.99

00:43:28.220 and I thought oh great here we go here goes 0.95

00:43:32.680 my rest and I and that you know at first I

00:43:35.980 was going to try to just ignore it but then

00:43:37.380 I thought you know what I'm going to talk

00:43:38.480 about crucial conversations tomorrow morning

00:43:40.480 and you know how lame is this that I can't

00:43:43.180 even engage in one right now and so I

00:43:45.220 thought all right I'm going to do this and so

00:43:47.280 I said to the guy I said look we've got 40

00:43:49.980 minutes before we're going to get to my

00:43:51.160 hotel I said I'm willing to talk with you

00:43:54.960 about this but I want some ground rules I

00:43:57.740 said first of all you've got 10 minutes and

00:44:00.240 I want you to say anything you want to say

00:44:02.260 to me as an American and I'm going to listen

00:44:04.300 to absolutely everything and just try to

00:44:06.320 understand it and then afterwards you're

00:44:07.960 going to have to listen to me for 10 minutes

00:44:09.340 and I wasn't saying I disagreed with him

00:44:11.580 necessarily I just wanted to make sure we

00:44:13.700 had ground rules in place so it keep us 0.93

00:44:15.300 both safe and he got this silly grin on his 0.87

00:44:18.020 face he said you're really strange aren't

00:44:19.920 you and I said I said do you want to do

00:44:22.460 this or don't you and he said yeah let's do

00:44:24.260 this and we had a wonderful conversation and

00:44:27.400 I can't say that I agreed with all of his

00:44:29.860 beliefs or perspective on US foreign policy

00:44:33.060 but I was way more sympathetic to it when I

00:44:35.420 got there and I don't know that he

00:44:37.660 necessarily agreed with me on everything

00:44:39.340 but he was probably far more sympathetic to

00:44:41.420 my point of view than he was when we first

00:44:43.600 started we started realizing we had some

00:44:45.380 common values that both of us cared about

00:44:47.880 decency and honesty and human life and and we

00:44:51.440 didn't think that economics should come above

00:44:53.380 human life and so we realized there were

00:44:55.620 common values so often our disagreements are

00:44:58.560 at the strategy level not at the values level

00:45:01.040 but the problem is we never discover it because

00:45:03.520 we don't spend enough time listening and

00:45:05.640 asking and filling the pool of meaning so

00:45:08.120 that we can appreciate where the other

00:45:09.320 person's coming from so to help people guide a

00:45:12.920 crucial conversation you've got an acronym

00:45:14.560 state s-t-a-t-e what does that mean yeah we

00:45:18.880 we tend when we want to make our points so

00:45:21.420 let's say for example we were talking about

00:45:23.020 immigration or something like that what we

00:45:25.500 tend to do is we start at the wrong end of

00:45:27.900 the conversation we just say I think we need

00:45:30.120 to build a wall and we shouldn't have any

00:45:32.100 illegal immigration in our country at all and 0.52

00:45:34.060 we got to kick out everybody that's illegal

00:45:35.600 right now that's my point of view right

00:45:37.280 so I tend to start there and people then react

00:45:40.260 to that I'm starting with my conclusion I'm

00:45:42.840 starting at the end of the story not the

00:45:44.720 beginning of the story when I came to whatever

00:45:47.120 conclusion I've got on immigration or any

00:45:49.020 other topic it started with me having some

00:45:51.360 experiences concrete experiences it starts

00:45:53.800 with my belief about what's factual and true

00:45:56.440 and then I tend to tell myself stories about

00:45:59.100 that and then I have feelings about it and

00:46:01.420 then that results in how I'm going to act so

00:46:03.580 we call this the path to action starts with

00:46:06.020 facts stories come next emotions come next and

00:46:09.860 then the actions the proposals the opinions

00:46:12.100 that I form follow from the end of that if you

00:46:15.220 want people to be able to understand your

00:46:17.340 point of view you've got to take them by the

00:46:19.180 hand and walk them down that whole path start

00:46:21.520 with the factual basis what do you think is

00:46:23.800 going on in our country today and how is

00:46:26.200 immigration affecting that what facts do you

00:46:28.000 have to put on the table what stories do you

00:46:30.040 then tell yourself about it what feelings does

00:46:32.500 that create for you and then what policy

00:46:35.100 positions do you advocate as a result walk

00:46:37.500 them through that and even if they don't

00:46:39.780 agree at least there's more meaning in the

00:46:41.460 pool so they can see how a reasonable

00:46:43.500 rational decent person might come to the

00:46:45.820 point of view that I've got and then help

00:46:47.980 them do the same we call this state because

00:46:50.800 the acronym s-t-a-t-e describes the five

00:46:53.920 things you need to do in order to be heard

00:46:56.400 non-defensively first share your facts s second

00:47:00.460 tell your story that's the t a ask for

00:47:04.380 others facts and ask for others point of

00:47:06.440 view and then talk tentatively and encourage

00:47:09.860 testing encourage testing means you encourage

00:47:12.640 the other person to challenge to question to

00:47:15.640 interrogate your point of view invite that

00:47:17.960 when you do that defensiveness declines so

00:47:20.600 those are kind of the five ways of showing up

00:47:23.220 when you start to share your opinion in a

00:47:25.280 way that reduces defensiveness let's talk

00:47:27.580 about that talk tentatively part because I

00:47:29.120 think a lot of guys listening might think

00:47:30.900 well that's just being weak or unconfident

00:47:32.960 what does talk tentatively actually look like

00:47:36.200 yeah it just means to to tell the truth so

00:47:40.320 most of us overstate our point of view and

00:47:42.680 we think that banging the table and

00:47:44.160 overstating you know the fact of the matter

00:47:46.160 is and is all thinking people know and you

00:47:48.920 know the only reasonable conclusion is when

00:47:51.720 we overstate our point of view when we act as

00:47:54.360 though we're absolutely certain that you know

00:47:56.600 I'll use immigration again that this one 1.00

00:47:58.380 immigration policy is the only right way for 0.85

00:48:00.620 us to do this when you do that what tends to

00:48:03.180 happen is number one you lie because you

00:48:06.480 probably don't really believe that that's the

00:48:08.300 only point of view that has any reason or

00:48:10.280 factual support for it and secondly you provoke

00:48:13.000 defensiveness so the other people who tend

00:48:16.200 to feel like your goal is to try to convince

00:48:18.700 compel and control you're trying to convince

00:48:21.580 them of your point of view they tend to start

00:48:23.980 poking holes in it people naturally look at

00:48:26.460 what's wrong with your argument when the

00:48:28.000 argument is overstated if you want them to be

00:48:30.460 able to listen then state an opinion as an

00:48:32.560 opinion that's what tentative means so you know

00:48:35.220 in in my point of view this is what I believe or

00:48:37.720 in my long experience this is my point of view or

00:48:40.700 after long consideration I'm quite confident

00:48:43.100 that all of those are perfectly appropriate

00:48:45.880 things to say because they're honest they

00:48:48.440 aren't overstating your level of confidence or

00:48:50.740 your level of omniscience about the topic we

00:48:53.900 find that people are more persuaded when you're

00:48:56.440 less aggressive when you state your opinion as

00:48:59.460 an opinion and allow room for testing so as part

00:49:02.580 of a crucial conversation with a loved one or at

00:49:04.660 work with a boss or colleague you might receive

00:49:07.200 feedback and criticism and that's always hard

00:49:09.380 because you know it sets off for flight or fight

00:49:11.560 response to feel criticized but you say feedback

00:49:14.560 can stop being threatening once you treat it as

00:49:17.520 information rather than indictment even when

00:49:20.260 it's given emotionally or clumsily you can

00:49:22.200 still separate what's being said from how

00:49:25.340 it's being said and instead of reflexively

00:49:28.160 defending your ego you can start getting

00:49:30.700 curious and ask what does this person see that

00:49:33.640 I might not even poorly delivered feedback often

00:49:36.520 contains a fragment of truth worth examining and

00:49:39.220 one thing people can do to get value from

00:49:41.900 criticism without being crushed by it is take

00:49:44.920 your time with it you can say all right thank

00:49:47.460 you I'm gonna take that and sit on it for a bit

00:49:50.380 and then you you know go through it by yourself

00:49:52.620 and think okay this doesn't mean anything that's

00:49:54.800 not true but like oh that comment he's got a point

00:49:57.440 here yes that's a powerful if you can recognize

00:50:01.600 that in a crucial conversation you can control

00:50:04.560 the parameters of it you're not powerless you're

00:50:07.460 not a victim of it one of the best ways to take

00:50:09.780 control is to is to control the pacing so if

00:50:12.780 somebody's coming at you with some really hard

00:50:14.400 feedback it's okay for you to set the table like

00:50:16.480 I did with the guy in the taxi cab and to say I

00:50:19.400 want to hear you out I'm gonna ask a lot of

00:50:21.100 questions and if it gets a little overwhelming to

00:50:23.380 me I may ask for a break but I want to get to the

00:50:25.700 other side of this and understand it and then I

00:50:27.680 don't know that I'll respond right now I'm gonna

00:50:29.840 need some time to reflect on this so there it is

00:50:32.400 that's how I'm okay with engaging in this

00:50:34.640 conversation so if you're sitting down with your

00:50:37.200 boss in a performance review and she gives you some

00:50:39.500 feedback that's surprising to you don't respond

00:50:42.780 right then let her know that you want a chance to

00:50:45.680 sort through it and absorb it and you want to

00:50:47.460 respond in a way that's respectful of the feedback

00:50:49.480 that you've been given and then go and deal with

00:50:52.220 whatever emotions you need to work through to get

00:50:54.120 to a good place sort through it and come back and

00:50:56.920 then deal with part two of it all right so we've had

00:50:59.180 the conversation we have a shared pool of

00:51:01.540 meaning everyone feels heard but I've seen this

00:51:04.800 happen a million times in groups where these hard

00:51:07.620 conversations happen but like people get on the

00:51:10.120 same page the meeting ends everyone feels good but

00:51:14.300 nothing actually happens you've been there too

00:51:17.920 yeah so why do people mess up the transition from

00:51:20.420 meaning to action yeah because I think we let

00:51:24.060 ourselves sell out at the end and we all know

00:51:26.520 that we should always end a conversation by

00:51:28.840 clarifying who does what by when and how we're

00:51:30.760 going to follow up we need to make sure that we

00:51:33.340 confirm our agreement and if it's a politically

00:51:36.180 sensitive one or there's a low trust history

00:51:38.400 writing it down so that everybody can confirm

00:51:41.000 yeah that's what we agreed to that's what we

00:51:42.720 understood and then how are we going to follow

00:51:44.760 up what changes are we going to make as a result

00:51:46.580 of this that's the work at the end of the

00:51:48.640 conversation and if you don't do that work you

00:51:50.740 will have deja vu dialogues you will have to

00:51:53.600 have groundhog day and it's not fun to do it so

00:51:57.200 why go through all the trouble of having a good

00:51:59.940 crucial conversation if you're going to just waste

00:52:02.720 it at the end always end with who's going to do

00:52:05.140 what by when and how do we follow up well joseph

00:52:07.320 this has been a great conversation where can people

00:52:09.000 go to learn more about the book in your work

00:52:10.500 cruciallearning.com is our website and lots of

00:52:14.340 great resources there to get the training virtually

00:52:16.720 in person online public classes the book is called

00:52:20.420 crucial conversations tools for talking when

00:52:22.520 stakes are high and and i'm happy to have a chance

00:52:24.820 to share it thank you brett thanks joseph it's been a

00:52:27.000 pleasure my guest here is joseph grinney he's the

00:52:30.740 co-author of the book crucial conversations is

00:52:32.740 available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere

00:52:34.580 you can find more information about his work at his

00:52:36.360 website cruciallearning.com also check out our

00:52:38.780 show notes at aom.is crucial conversations where

00:52:41.380 you find links to resources and we delve deeper into

00:52:43.120 this topic

00:52:43.600 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast if

00:52:54.020 you haven't done so already i'd appreciate it if you

00:52:55.600 take one minute to give us your email podcast or

00:52:57.460 spotify it helps out a lot and if you've done that

00:52:59.320 already thank you please consider sharing the show

00:53:01.500 with a friend or family member who think we're

00:53:03.180 something out of it word of mouth is the primary way

00:53:05.500 we grow as always thank you for the continued support

00:53:08.200 until next time this is brett mckay remind time

00:53:09.960 listening on podcast put what you've heard into

00:53:12.280 hey before you go here's one more episode to consider in episode

00:53:35.740 number 716 we dig into a paradox how do you make your life easier

00:53:39.680 without becoming passive it's all about clearing friction choosing your battles

00:53:43.140 wisely and crafting habits that help you move forward with less drag you can

00:53:47.040 find it at aom.is slash effortless that's aom.is slash effortless a lot of

00:53:52.080 great actionable insights in this episode check it out today

00:53:54.340 thank you

00:53:56.340 thank you

The Art of Manliness - February 17, 2026

How to Have the Conversations You’ve Been Avoiding

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