The Art of Manliness - How to Have the Manners and Charm of a Proper English Gentleman

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.960 the british just seemed like a classier bunch part of it is that winning accent but it's also

00:00:16.260 because english culture has long been steeped in the tradition of learning and practicing etiquette

00:00:20.400 here to share some of the essentials of modern etiquette that are important to matter which side

00:00:24.180 of the pond you live on is william hansen a british etiquette expert and the author of

00:00:28.340 just good manners william shares the difference between manners and etiquette and why young

00:00:32.500 people are especially interested in both he then takes us through how to introduce yourself and

00:00:36.760 others the history behind the no elbows on the table mantra the rules of small talk some overlooked

00:00:42.420 guidelines for table manners how to enter a conversational circle at a party considerations

00:00:46.960 for elevator etiquette and much more whether you're dining at a fancy restaurant or just want to

00:00:51.660 navigate social situations with more confidence william's insights will help you present yourself

00:00:55.660 panache of a proper english gentleman after the show's over check out our show notes at

00:01:00.140 awim.is slash etiquette

00:01:01.900 all right william hansen welcome to the show thank you very much for having me so you are

00:01:22.400 a professional etiquette teacher how did you become an etiquette teacher well it wasn't something i i

00:01:28.920 necessarily sort of woke up one day and thought right that's it i'm going to become an etiquette

00:01:33.780 teacher uh it wasn't a profession i was even aware really existed uh as a child growing up i wanted

00:01:40.740 to either be uh the archbishop of canterbury for whatever reason or a spy or a newsreader those those

00:01:48.960 what that's the trajectory i was heading in i had decided but then my grandmother gave me this book

00:01:54.580 of etiquette for christmas when i was 12 and sort of after a few sort of have i read any of it type

00:02:00.540 questions i thought well i bet i just better read a bit and then i can tell her i've read it

00:02:04.880 and it was actually very interesting and very funny and i bought more books on the subject and then when

00:02:10.520 i was 16 17 at my school they came up to me and said oh we're looking for someone to teach the younger

00:02:16.420 years how to set a table do you think you could do that and i said well when when do you want me to

00:02:22.960 do it and they said oh tuesday afternoons and i said oh and instead of playing sport they said yes

00:02:28.220 so i didn't need to be asked twice really and that's how the teaching side of things started

00:02:34.940 um and so you got a new book out called just good manners where you take americans and just anybody

00:02:40.180 through the ins and outs of british etiquette and we're going to dig into that because i think it's

00:02:45.620 applicable to whatever country you live in but i thought it was really interesting you talk about

00:02:50.120 the history of etiquette education in the united kingdom can you tell us a bit about that because

00:02:55.000 i didn't know about this yes i think you know britain has always or england even we should say

00:03:01.120 before it sort of became britain has always sort of led the way in education in manners and etiquette

00:03:08.400 and civility swiss finishing schools as well were very popular and they basically did the same thing

00:03:13.220 but they just had the mountains for the skiing that's what they could offer that we in britain

00:03:17.620 couldn't but you know even going back to sort of the dickensian england not that long ago in the

00:03:23.000 grand scheme of things but men would sort of go on what was called the grand tour around europe

00:03:27.620 just before they settled down and whilst that was happening the ladies were being finished and 0.99

00:03:35.280 you would have sort of characters like dickens portrays one in little dorrit called mrs general

00:03:40.700 who is there sort of taking these group of sisters under her wing finishing them and telling them sort 1.00

00:03:46.660 of how to behave and what was expected of them so this sort of education has always existed certainly

00:03:52.620 in the last 300 years or so and you're the director of one of like the last english etiquette schools

00:03:59.360 correct yes so so the sort of at the height of the 20th century which is when these finishing schools

00:04:04.900 we still had presentation at court which is when young girls were would curtsy in front of the king

00:04:10.040 and queen as it were before they were sort of eligible to be married a completely outdated practice

00:04:14.920 and one that queen elizabeth sort of quite quickly when she ascended the throne knocked on the head

00:04:19.080 because she thought it was ridiculous but you had finishing schools such as winkfield place or lucy

00:04:24.260 clayton and lucy clayton actually in 2001 sort of regenerated into the english manner which is the

00:04:30.900 company i'm now very pleased to run and own so at the beginning of the book you make a distinction

00:04:35.640 between manners and etiquette and i've seen this distinction before but what do you think is the

00:04:41.400 difference between etiquette and manners i would say manners are the top line fundamental requirement for 0.75

00:04:48.740 being a human being wherever you are in the world treat people with civility charm grace decorum

00:04:54.180 respect how we do that is by using a set of rules most of the time the etiquette is correct

00:05:01.240 sometimes it isn't we actually have to break the rule of etiquette but etiquette is it can change

00:05:06.700 from country to country and what is considered polite in one country can be very different and

00:05:12.280 actually impolite in another so you use the set of rules according to your environment

00:05:16.840 yeah a lot of people when i see them make this distinction between manners and etiquette

00:05:21.260 manners is just sort of how you comport yourself with other people to make sure things go smoothly

00:05:25.360 etiquette are the specific rules they often say well you know manners are more important than etiquette

00:05:29.740 and you make the case well maybe not yeah i i would say i think it is impossible to be a well-mannered

00:05:36.520 person without knowing something about etiquette you don't necessarily need to know that a dinner napkin

00:05:42.560 at its largest is 26 inches for example i think you will be able to get through life

00:05:46.780 without knowing that pearl of wisdom but i would say following the rules of etiquette makes you a

00:05:52.880 more well-mannered person you can be a well-mannered person without knowing etiquette but i think you

00:05:57.760 can be an even more well-mannered person if you use the two i think they work together yeah i agree

00:06:03.460 with that because i think what etiquette does it gives you something concrete to do because oftentimes

00:06:08.840 people just don't know what to do whenever in a difference in certain situations like i don't know

00:06:12.640 what am i supposed to do well here follow these rules you can be well-mannered by following these

00:06:17.520 simple rules exactly we you know as children i don't know about you brett but as as as a child i

00:06:22.700 liked to know what was expected of me because as a child of course we're all petrified or most

00:06:27.600 children petrified being told off or grounded or whatever the form of punishment is and so we sort of

00:06:33.640 want to know when we go to this person's house what are we doing what are we expected how am i

00:06:39.200 meant to behave at school for example we were given parameters and boundaries and and that's sort of all

00:06:44.280 it is really in in adult life i think adults thrive with parameters and boundaries and knowing what is

00:06:49.840 expected of them because we all want to get it right and we've bizarrely got to a point in life where

00:06:55.800 so many people will say ah i don't need etiquette who who knows etiquette anymore and actually what

00:07:02.020 they're doing rather badly is masking the fact that they don't know the rules themselves and so

00:07:08.140 they are sort of saying it doesn't matter because actually they don't know and they don't want to

00:07:13.440 admit their sort of blissful ignorance it's something i've noticed and i think you noticed this as well

00:07:18.540 with your career because you i think you're really popular on tiktok i feel like a lot of young people

00:07:23.560 crave that knowledge of etiquette because they want to know how to act in the world with other people

00:07:29.860 in a way that's well mannered and smooth yes absolutely i think there's there are so many

00:07:35.060 sort of ways now for people to be sort of rightly so in some instances called out or flagged down for

00:07:42.180 bad behavior and so younger generations who have grown up knowing that actually they can't really be

00:07:48.120 an awful human being and get away with it are are more conscious of it one of my biggest demographics

00:07:53.960 on my social media videos are is gen z and actually when the gen z people come and sort of say hi to me

00:08:00.060 in the street if they pass me whether it's in london or new york or wherever they're so nice and so

00:08:06.240 polite and cautious about coming up to me whereas some millennial followers that i have and i am a

00:08:13.680 millennial myself will sort of charge up to me and almost demand immediately without sort of being

00:08:19.360 conscious that i may not be working i might be out in a social capacity and demand that i do a

00:08:24.740 photograph with them i don't mind doing a photograph but sort of ask me nicely so gen z get a bit of a 0.94

00:08:29.760 bad rap but actually from what i've seen i think it's quite good that they are they're interested in

00:08:36.420 how to behave and just sort of being aware of how their actions affect other people which is really all

00:08:43.060 all it is so let's dig in to some of the rules of etiquette that you highlight in your book

00:08:47.720 that can help us guide our social interactions i think a lot of it because it's primarily about

00:08:52.500 interacting with other people yes and making those interactions as smooth and as comfortable

00:08:57.320 and as pleasant as possible let's start off with introductions what's the best way to introduce

00:09:02.520 yourself well i think this when i was writing jessica manners this is one of the things that i

00:09:06.360 found sort of faintly interesting was that in the etiquette books the emily post original edition

00:09:11.560 from the 1920s for example there is nothing about introducing yourself because it used to be the

00:09:17.620 etiquette that it was incredibly taboo to introduce yourself but there was lots of advice about

00:09:22.260 introducing other people whereas now etiquette books just good manners aside will have information

00:09:29.140 about how to introduce yourself but nothing about introducing other people and certainly a lot of

00:09:33.980 brits or people that spent too much time in britain and sort of picked up some bad british habits when

00:09:39.300 they go to introduce themselves to someone whether it's on the street or at a cocktail party or

00:09:43.420 whatever apologize for introducing themselves maybe that's because sort of we in britain are programmed

00:09:50.220 to know that it's not really good form historically to introduce yourself although absolutely fine now

00:09:56.000 but they'll say oh sorry to interrupt or oh sorry to come up to you today and actually well i don't know

00:10:01.700 anything about you but i have just i do now know that you've just interrupted me and that you're apologizing

00:10:07.260 so already i've noticed that you're apologizing and you're interrupting me whereas i may not have

00:10:12.440 noticed actually so just i think something positive and upbeat hello my name is william very lovely to

00:10:17.300 meet you for example is is all you need to do and say your name clearly as well it is so important to

00:10:23.740 to say your name but so few people actually bother to say their names when they're introducing themselves

00:10:28.400 which is extraordinary behavior because otherwise i don't know what to call you

00:10:31.720 okay so be positive be upbeat don't apologize say your name clearly you mentioned people don't

00:10:38.640 know how to introduce other people and i've noticed that as well whenever i'm interacting

00:10:42.500 with individuals and let's say they're with their spouse or you're going over to a friend's house and

00:10:50.280 their grandmother's there no one knows how to introduce people to other people so i end up usually

00:10:55.940 just having to introduce myself so what is the proper protocol on making introductions

00:11:00.440 so it can get quite complicated and actually when i started teaching etiquette 18 years ago this was

00:11:06.460 the bit that i would in class dread coming to teach because it can be quite wordy but what you don't need

00:11:12.220 to do is you don't need to say both parties names twice so if you've got bill and ben for example you

00:11:18.500 don't need to say bill this is ben ben this is bill you don't need to reverse it and the example i

00:11:23.820 would give you is to sort of show you why that is wrong is if you take the head of state and in any

00:11:29.780 country in britain it would be the king the president in america let's take the president

00:11:34.900 for example whoever that president is if i said mr president may introduce bill that is fine there's

00:11:42.380 nothing wrong with that i put the president first i'm giving him the respect as head of state but if

00:11:47.760 i then switch it bill this is the president that second time i have elevated bill and relegated the

00:11:55.580 president which in a diplomatic context is completely the wrong thing to do so you only need to say that

00:12:01.740 you say the most important person's name first how you define who that most important person is

00:12:07.180 is up to you and it depends on context in a professional setting the ceo of the company is

00:12:12.860 probably going to be more important than the intern a client to a company is going to be more important

00:12:18.660 than the ceo socially you probably now would go on age rather than looking at gender so granny 0.96

00:12:25.740 being 85 is going to be sort of elevated above annie who's 18 okay that makes sense and then you also

00:12:33.280 talk about whenever you make an introduction to add some context to the introduction yes none of us

00:12:40.460 really like making small talk if we're completely honest i mean small talk with complete strangers

00:12:45.080 for some is is absolute purgatory so you can make life easy for the two people that you are

00:12:51.980 introducing by saying bill this is ben ben's just flown in from sydney and bill i believe didn't your

00:12:57.600 mother used to live in australia if you can find a link that's perfect because then they do have

00:13:02.600 common ground but if not you just say ben just flew in from sydney leave it at that and then hopefully

00:13:08.360 one of them goes oh gosh i've always wanted to go and it just says something but if you just say the

00:13:13.960 names and do the introduction people just stare at each other like great you've introduced me but

00:13:18.320 who are you yeah we typically shake hands when meeting someone new this is the art of manliness

00:13:24.860 we got to talk about the etiquette on handshaking yes i mean handshaking which of course you know

00:13:30.360 slightly went out of fashion during the pandemic but is is thankfully now back it's probably the only

00:13:34.960 physical contact you will have with most people and i i think and i don't know about you brett you can

00:13:39.800 tell so much about someone by the quality of the handshake do you judge someone of course if i get

00:13:45.880 the limp fish it's an immediate like yeah i don't know yeah it's an ick to use a modern parliament is

00:13:51.660 already in the first sort of couple of seconds whilst we're judging a new person i've met them and

00:13:56.060 it's the limp fish handshake as you say and it's it's unpleasant similarly if it's a bone crusher you

00:14:01.160 think wow why are they having to overcompensate and come across as overly assertive so the handshake is so

00:14:08.080 important and i again in the book when i was writing i thought well actually maybe you know

00:14:12.920 maybe i'm being a bit harsh on people that have bad handshakes because i can remember i think my

00:14:18.260 parents telling me how to shake a hand aged five maybe i'm roughly around age five but then no parent

00:14:26.020 i mean maybe there are parents out there that sort of are the exceptions that prove the rule no parent

00:14:30.540 then revisits that handshaking lesson when their child is now 15 and actually the strength of their

00:14:35.460 handshake is going to be very different to what they were doing when they were five you're sort of

00:14:40.040 told what to do and then nobody revises it and actually having a good handshake is often half the

00:14:46.020 battle particularly in business no i i agree uh handshake is important something it's something i've

00:14:50.820 taught my kids and i like a good firm handshake for men and women alike i'm an equal opportunist when

00:14:56.440 it comes to that sort of thing oh absolutely and i would again one of the things i've enjoyed doing

00:15:00.540 writing the book is sort of tracking where the changes have come in and what these changes are

00:15:06.220 and again if you read the original emily post or books published in the 1920s ladies didn't massively 1.00

00:15:11.460 shake hands the hostess might have shook hands with guests but but other than that ladies didn't do it 1.00

00:15:17.300 now anyone of any gender business or professional everybody shakes hands everyone should take off their 0.94

00:15:24.040 right glove if they're wearing gloves so it's flesh to flesh obviously if you're an absolute minus 40 0.83

00:15:29.120 degrees celsius temperatures fine you can keep your glove on there are always sort of caveats to it

00:15:35.560 but yes a handshake is pretty equal so this is related introductions but this has happened to me a few

00:15:41.160 times it's whenever you encounter someone you've met before but you can't remember their name you're not

00:15:48.100 really acquaintances but you know of each other how do you make those what we call reintroductions to each

00:15:54.500 other yes i think a lot of people sort of can get quite offended that the other person hasn't remembered

00:15:59.940 you but but actually you know sometimes we aren't we're the most memorable and interesting person in our

00:16:06.500 own lives because we're there we're the only person that is sort of the world expert on ourselves but other

00:16:12.420 people may not necessarily remember you like you remember them so just say your name quickly back to them

00:16:18.940 hello so lovely to see you again it's william of course what have you been up to since i saw you at

00:16:23.940 brett for example just help them out rather than sort of expect them to remember every detail about you

00:16:30.960 obviously if they can remember everything about you that's fantastic actually a really simple trick i

00:16:36.620 often do in restaurants or hotels i go to a lot is i just write down the staff's name in a note in my

00:16:41.960 phone and so when i'm going back in i can remember that you know grant is the tall waiter with the ear

00:16:47.960 piercing and so when i go in again i can say hello grant how are you and generally you find you get

00:16:52.700 a thousand times better service when you actually bother to learn their names it also helps i think

00:16:58.180 trains your brain to remember people's names better as well i like that that's a classy move i'm gonna

00:17:03.140 start doing that what happens if you forget someone's name any tips on navigating that yeah i mean

00:17:09.200 apologize and move on quite quickly so brett if i called you ben for example and you say oh no it's

00:17:15.860 it's brett i'm so sorry i'm so sorry brett i'd probably say using your correct name and then

00:17:20.600 move on but again it's quite a british thing to make that into a drama and to over apologize oh my

00:17:26.680 gosh i'm so sorry oh that happens all the time and the more of an issue i make it the more of an issue

00:17:34.160 it becomes so just sort of say sorry say the correct name make a mental note not to get it wrong again

00:17:39.940 and move on yeah that's something i've learned after reading your book british people like to

00:17:44.520 apologize very i mean it's look hey it's better better to over apologize than not apologize at all

00:17:50.840 but it can go the other way as well let's talk about small talk any etiquette to small talk are

00:17:57.240 there topics that are taboo that you definitely don't want to go there yeah i would say this is

00:18:01.900 something that has not changed very recently sex money politics health and religion still remain for

00:18:08.180 small talk and this is conversation with people you do not know well i'm not saying when you're

00:18:12.760 talking to very good friends but with strangers avoid sex money politics health or religion to begin

00:18:19.700 with because you just don't know what people's opinions are what makes them engage what disengages

00:18:25.600 them what offends them and it's so much better to sort of play it safe and some cultures just don't

00:18:31.880 get small talk the germans absolutely don't get it the dutch sort of get it but aren't particularly

00:18:36.220 good at it but think about small talk as the slip road onto a major highway if you didn't have that

00:18:44.980 slip road and you were joining the conversational highway going at 70 miles an hour you would crash

00:18:52.360 and so you need that slip road to just sort of build your speed up into a slightly more interesting

00:18:57.600 conversation that is the point of small talk i'm not pretending it is fascinating but it is needed

00:19:03.260 in order to have a proper conversation with someone okay for our american listeners a slip road in

00:19:09.060 england is what we call an on-ramp over here and that's the metaphor i always use for small talk some

00:19:15.540 people say they hate small talk and they just want to jump to the big talk but you've got to take the

00:19:19.680 on-ramp of small talk to get up to speed into that deeper conversation so what are your go-to topics

00:19:25.240 for small talk i mean look in britain we're obsessed with talking about the weather i was being

00:19:29.240 interviewed yesterday it was a british journalist we spent five minutes talking about the weather at

00:19:34.180 the start of the interview but in britain our weather we often can have three or four seasons

00:19:38.880 in a day if you're in gorgeous california or you're in the middle east where the weather is sort of

00:19:44.100 fairly consistent the weather's not going to be spoken about but beyond the weather i just will talk

00:19:50.960 about the environment that you are in there and then you're trying to find a shared experience or

00:19:56.240 something in common with that person and if you have nothing else in common you don't sort of

00:20:02.920 have lots of hobbies in common what you do have is the room you're in gosh what a beautiful ceiling

00:20:07.780 aren't the band fantastic something upbeat and positive is what we want talk about the canapes

00:20:13.400 how do you know the host that's safe and better small talk than gosh well it's this lovely sunny day

00:20:19.680 isn't it in america we're obsessed with work so often work is a topic of small talk yeah what do

00:20:27.020 you do in britain that's apparently that's frowned upon talk about work and small talk

00:20:31.140 yeah well i'll be honest your american tendencies are are sort of creeping in and i i think particularly

00:20:36.620 younger generations are slightly more work focused and find it less taboo but people really shouldn't

00:20:45.040 be defined by their jobs i mean i do speak as someone who's an etiquette coach so i've got a slight

00:20:48.900 vested interest in this and pushing my own personal agenda but if i go to a party this evening i'm going

00:20:55.760 in my social capacity whether i'm a dentist a tax lawyer or an etiquette coach has got no bearing on

00:21:02.100 whether my friend has invited me to that party and as much as i love my job i mean i have no other

00:21:07.000 talent so i don't know what else i'd do i don't want to talk about it all the time actually there's more

00:21:12.160 to me than my job and so certainly to begin with and again you know when you say to people you're an

00:21:18.220 etiquette coach people sort of either freeze or start panicking i'd quite like to talk about

00:21:22.840 something else thank you very much yeah or if you ask someone about their job they hate their job

00:21:26.780 oh and then it's and then you'll say oh god i did yeah i don't really care really especially if you

00:21:31.580 meet someone that yeah and they start moaning about their job and you think well i was just asking

00:21:35.700 it to be polite i don't really need a whole rundown what do you do when you're engaging in small talk

00:21:41.000 and let's say the conversation starts going into some of those taboo topics you mentioned earlier

00:21:46.860 any way to navigate that deftly well i mean hopefully if people i mean most of conversation

00:21:52.120 is listening and being able to pick up on what you're being given back and if you're asking a

00:21:56.020 question especially if you think it's controversial and you're not getting much back from the other

00:22:00.660 person it is probably time to move on but if often it's other people witnessing or listening into

00:22:06.120 the conversation that will have to sort of step in and can see the the car crash to use another

00:22:13.220 driving analogy about to happen and so i mean i mean it's such a cliche but it works is just stepping

00:22:19.040 in and going well what lovely weather we're having today and saying it very pointedly i've only ever

00:22:24.080 had to do it once at a dinner i was hosting and that should be a clue to the people that had

00:22:30.180 started to get a bit heated but also to the other guests we need to move this on everyone needs to

00:22:35.660 step in and help me here let's say you're at a cocktail party a mingling event where they're

00:22:41.440 and you're going there by yourself you don't know anyone and there's already established little circles

00:22:46.300 of conversation going on how do you enter a conversational group with class and it's smoothly

00:22:53.740 this is hard to explain on an audio podcast but generally you want to first of all before you actually

00:22:59.700 move in make sure there are what we call an open body language group and usually that means

00:23:05.500 there's a great big gap for you that you can go and stand in if there's no gap don't try and approach

00:23:10.900 them and because it's they've sort of subconsciously or consciously closed that gap off and so you're

00:23:16.120 not going to get much success but really just basically if you i mean if you know somebody in

00:23:20.620 that group much easier you just make eye contact with them and hope they bring you in but if you don't

00:23:25.500 know anyone in that group it's a shallow basically i hate to say it it's as shallow as picking the one

00:23:32.100 that looks like you so that could be you're tall and blonde they're tall and blonde it's a group of

00:23:38.820 women and one man look at the male for example or man in a tie man in a tie just anything that sort of

00:23:45.120 you will have most success joining a group if you basically pick the person who looks most like you

00:23:51.080 smile at them make a really nice positive signal if you get a smile back you step forward and do your

00:23:56.860 approach and would say oh hello may i join my name is william again don't say sorry to interrupt if you

00:24:02.860 don't get a smile back and they sort of look away or close the gap you just move on and try and find

00:24:09.540 someone else that tip of looking for people that look like you you talked about in the book there's

00:24:14.020 this you went to a party where the invitation had ambiguous instructions on dress code and it was

00:24:22.060 either you could it was a black tie or like 1970s yes and like so you you know you're the etiquette guy

00:24:29.520 you went black tie of course you're gonna go black tie but there was like only three other guys that

00:24:33.920 went black tie you guys just ended up talking to each other the entire night we did because again

00:24:38.160 it's shallow and people don't know many other people they don't want to take risks if you've got

00:24:42.980 a group of mice you've got a group of cats okay the cats might want to play with the mice but the mice

00:24:47.160 don't want to play with the cats and it's the same so i didn't know there were two dress codes i was

00:24:53.000 someone's guest i was going on secondhand information without having seen the invitation

00:24:57.840 i always ask to see the invitation now after that drama but yes there were you know in a room full of

00:25:03.700 100 people there were three of us in black tie tuxedo and um it was quite boring after a while

00:25:10.700 because no one else wanted to talk to us and it's sort of playground stuff but it does happen

00:25:14.880 i'm sure a lot of people have had this happen to them when they're at a party and they start

00:25:19.760 talking to someone and this someone does not want to let go of you but you want to go talk to other

00:25:24.940 people how do you politely break away from someone who's talking your ear off well ideally you want

00:25:31.040 to introduce them to someone else and pair them off it's not great to leave someone standing on their

00:25:35.840 own if they've said something objectionable or you absolutely have to go because you're going to miss

00:25:40.680 your flight or something then fair enough but try to pair them off with someone else brett it's been

00:25:47.160 so lovely talking to you i've just seen someone over there i've got to go and get and speak to

00:25:51.360 before they leave have you met susan however and i've sort of seen susan floating around and i grab

00:25:57.260 her as she comes past and go susan i introduce brett brett has just flown in from sydney and susan i

00:26:03.180 believe your mother is from australia i'll leave you two talking and off you go so that that's what you

00:26:08.380 ideally want to do but if there is no one you're going to have to leave them standing on their own

00:26:13.720 but you can make it sound like you are the bore so i would say something like well brett look i know

00:26:20.160 i've monopolized so much of your time this evening and i know there are lots of other people you want

00:26:23.680 to go and talk to but maybe we'll see each other in a few weeks time at that fundraiser

00:26:27.500 shake hands and off we go we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:26:32.680 and now back to the show so i think we've handled introductions we've handled small talk

00:26:39.800 let's talk about table manners let's start with this question why do the british have what seems

00:26:45.760 like such complicated and fastidious rules of table etiquette well i would say i mean it's

00:26:52.180 thankfully it's not the case anymore in britain we have such a wide and varied cuisine but historically

00:26:57.560 our food was always a bit rubbish and i think a lot of these rules might have been developed just

00:27:03.180 to sort of slow down eating it you didn't want to rush it because it wasn't very tasty and so we

00:27:09.800 came up with these sort of rules to have very small mouthfuls and small portions and we had a lot of

00:27:16.940 alcohol with our food different alcohol for each course and also you know in britain we like a rule

00:27:22.900 we like structure and i think british dining is the most complicated compared to european which is

00:27:28.980 a different thing than british dining we should say and that's not a brexit thing it's always been

00:27:33.080 that way in sort of etiquette land we've always had british and then european dining and then american

00:27:38.780 dining but we do like to over complicate things sometimes and you recommend that people learn

00:27:44.020 british etiquette because that'll basically cover your bases yeah and that's something i i picked up from

00:27:49.440 my great friend and colleague mike amaya who's who's a the leading expert in america in etiquette

00:27:54.020 and she teaches british dining as the sort of the gold standard because if you can do the top

00:27:58.960 standard you can easily do the bottom standard whatever that one is i guess it's like driving i

00:28:04.580 mean i know it varies now but if you learn to drive on a stick you can drive an automatic but if you learn

00:28:09.900 just on an automatic you can't drive on a stick and so it's probably best to learn the hardest one

00:28:15.040 and then you're covered for all bases so i think most of us growing up heard the rule no elbows on

00:28:21.560 the table and you talk about the history of why we have that rule so what is the history of the rule

00:28:27.700 no elbows on the table yes and this this is what people seem to forget particularly with etiquette and

00:28:32.720 dining etiquette is that we have not just come up with these rules to annoy people there is a rich

00:28:38.200 history behind all of our cultures and the no elbows on the table one goes back to sort of

00:28:43.160 medieval britain in europe where the tables were not secure tables like we're fortunate to eat from

00:28:49.540 today they were created from benches and sheets of wood twice a day when people were eating two meals

00:28:55.440 a day back then not three and if you put your elbows on the table because of the way the food would be

00:29:01.100 laid out down the center of the table well balanced if you put your elbows on the table the table would

00:29:06.280 tip and it would not be secure and so thus it became the etiquette to not put your elbows on

00:29:13.240 the table because you didn't want the food dropping onto the floor i would say now we as humans we're

00:29:17.400 sort of so ingrained knowing with all our ancestors have learned not to do that we sort of subconsciously

00:29:24.960 or consciously know it as well and so something we still follow even though our tables are by and large

00:29:30.660 secure yeah it also doesn't look good when you're at a nice dinner to have your elbows on the table

00:29:35.860 yeah it's horrid you can't i mean it's actually very difficult to eat with your elbows on the table

00:29:40.660 i challenge anyone to do it nicely maybe at the end of a dinner when you're sort of chatting over a cup

00:29:45.980 of tea or coffee with your host maybe having a little bit of a chocolate or something i can sort of

00:29:51.900 see that it's okay in that instance especially if your host is doing it but formally and actually

00:29:56.560 whilst there's proper food on the table in the middle then no elbows off when you're a guest at

00:30:01.580 a dinner when should you start eating so once the host has started basically is the rule if there's

00:30:08.640 a guest of honor you would wait until the guest of honor has started but generally on most meals that

00:30:13.580 we have there isn't a guest of honor and so once the host starts and they should be served last

00:30:17.820 then you may pick up your cutlery and begin i think everyone knows that when you're out to eat you

00:30:22.440 don't start eating your dish until everyone has been served but if it's like an informal dinner at

00:30:27.540 your home with friends and family do you need to wait until everyone's gotten their food to start

00:30:31.640 eating i mean is that the rule oh yes yes everyone's got to have food in front of them and be ready to

00:30:37.320 go and they're not still waiting for potatoes or sprouts or anything like that you wait until

00:30:42.400 everyone's got it and then and that's when the host then picks up their cutlery as a signal we may now

00:30:47.780 begin if you're a host of a dinner how should you pace your own eating yes you want to sort of

00:30:53.500 identify the slowest eater around the table and obviously for family dinners you can probably work

00:30:58.520 out who that is quite quickly because you dine with them quite a lot growing up in my household

00:31:03.360 with my parents were hosting it was always granny granny would do a lot of talking but not a lot of 1.00

00:31:08.480 eating and so my father was always sort of there dissecting a singular garden pea or something

00:31:14.580 because that's all he had got on his plate whilst granny started well still talked and did less

00:31:20.740 eating but host starts first but host finishes last and that's a huge discipline and the idea is that

00:31:28.920 you know you don't leave one person still eating with the rest of the table staring at them

00:31:33.620 so the host picks who is the slowest follows them so that they can match pace and so they are included

00:31:40.800 and are not feeling like they're holding things up even though let's be honest they might be yeah

00:31:45.520 let's talk dinner place settings this is how you got your start as an etiquette teacher first thing

00:31:49.840 you did was teach how to do dinner place settings i'm sure if you've been to a fancy dinner you see

00:31:55.500 this this layout and you're like oh my gosh which fork am i supposed to use which one's the bread plate

00:32:00.360 there's that whole advice that was in the titanic you know start from the outside and work your way in

00:32:05.560 with the silverware does that really do the trick or are there nuances to that that does generally do

00:32:11.120 the trick i mean all of these dining etiquette rules only work if the table's been set nicely

00:32:15.880 but working on the proviso the table is set nicely and correctly that one generally works however in

00:32:21.780 american dining etiquette there is what's called the american informal play setting where a teaspoon

00:32:28.380 used for the dessert will actually precede the dinner knife some american etiquette books often will show

00:32:34.700 both the sort of the standard place setting with outside in and then this american informal and the

00:32:39.740 outside in rule does not work at all because it's sort of zigzagging all over the shop so i'm i'm very

00:32:44.860 against the american informal one because i don't think it helps people and the whole point of etiquette is

00:32:50.400 it's meant to sort of help people whereas this is one exception too many and also nobody nobody that i

00:32:56.020 have spoken to and please if you're listening to this and you know where that rule came from please tell me

00:33:01.760 because my colleagues and i even the american ones just can't work it out who came up with that what

00:33:06.980 was the logic behind that and i i think with any rule if you can't find the logic behind it it's

00:33:11.900 probably time to ditch it yeah what's the etiquette of napkins and apparently you're a big napkin

00:33:17.020 aficionado yes i i've got a an unhealthy amount of napkins for a grown man of my age but i love a good

00:33:24.600 quality napkin i've yet to get to the stage in life where i take my own napkin to restaurant

00:33:29.600 but i'm sure it'll happen at some point because in britain i don't know what it's like in america

00:33:34.220 as much but britain people some places are obsessed with paper napkins and i'm just not convinced i

00:33:41.540 don't think it doesn't need to be paper because it's bad for the environment so a perfectly serviceable

00:33:47.040 linen napkin that can be reused is i think a bit better but yes napkins on the lap not around the neck

00:33:53.420 historically you had different types of napkin for different types of meals the larger the meal

00:33:58.940 the larger the napkin today it's very unlikely unless you're me that you have different sizes

00:34:04.340 of napkin which is fine just as long as it's sort of clean and ironed that's all i ask should you put

00:34:11.580 your napkin in your lap as soon as you sit down not the second you sit down unless food is sort of

00:34:17.680 hovering behind you ready to be placed okay down i would sort of within the first minute okay is when

00:34:23.640 you can do it you don't want to look too keen uh what do you do with your napkin if you need to

00:34:28.400 leave the table for the restroom for example then it would go on the chair and again some people get 0.77

00:34:33.260 sort of when i when i say this sometimes in class people will recoil because oh what the chair is so

00:34:40.240 dirty well if the chair's got arms put it on the arm of the chair never put it on the back of the chair

00:34:45.200 because then we can see it but actually if you're worried that the chair is that dirty what sort of

00:34:49.860 establishments are you dining in so i just rethink where you're going so yes seat of chair or arm of

00:34:56.020 chair and then on the table when you're leaving but you're not coming back okay that's what you do

00:35:01.100 with it when you're done you put it on the table yes okay absolutely i'm not coming back goodbye thanks

00:35:06.260 so much and really everyone should do that at the same time as well what do you do with your silverware

00:35:10.340 when you're done uh so it depends if you're eating what is in america called continental style

00:35:15.640 which is not a term we have over here but if you're eating continental style or you're eating

00:35:20.060 zigzag style continental style again many american etiquette coaches advocate for that

00:35:25.420 knife in right hand fork in left hand you would sort of place them in a triangle on the plate when

00:35:32.420 you're resting with the bridge of the fork going over the knife almost creating like a pizza wedge

00:35:38.520 shape in front of you and that is just to show i'm paused i'm just going to take a sip of my drink

00:35:44.360 i'm chatting to my neighbor i'm pacing myself whereas when you're finished they would go together

00:35:49.520 and you know different countries have slightly different angles in britain we do 6 30 if you

00:35:54.560 imagine the cutlery is a that's the hands of a clock with americans it's generally 5 25 some europeans

00:36:01.560 it's 4 20 some it's 3 15 i don't really care as long as they've gone together that's all the way

00:36:08.380 staff are looking for they're not going to look at your cutlery and go well they've done it in the

00:36:13.000 dutch way and we're here in california so we're not going to clear that plate they're not looking

00:36:17.640 for that as long as it is together that's what they want to know well let's go back to handling

00:36:22.820 utensils how to hold them so you mentioned the two styles the continental style and the zigzag style

00:36:27.720 so the continental style is when you got your knife in your right hand your fork in your left hand and

00:36:33.040 you got the tongs or the face of the fork pointed down right yeah yeah yeah and they work together and

00:36:38.820 in britain or continental style we let go of both of them when we're resting but other than that we

00:36:44.040 have got one in each hand they're almost extensions of our hands whereas in zigzag style you might cut

00:36:50.680 one or two pieces up with the knife place the knife down on the upper edge of the plate turn the fork

00:36:55.760 over into the dominant hand stab and eat and then transfer it back pick up the knife cut another bit

00:37:02.500 set the knife down transfer the fork i mean that's that's an aerobic exercise brett yeah no i don't

00:37:09.520 like the zigzag style i like where you just use the utensils as extensions of your hands for the

00:37:14.260 duration of the dinner i think it's a lot easier but some people insist it isn't but you know to

00:37:19.700 each their own as long as the food's going in their mouth and not all over the shop yeah the other

00:37:24.580 benefit of it too is it allows you to take up less space because your elbows are tucked in you can keep

00:37:29.480 your elbows tucked in you don't have to have your elbows all jutting out and bugging the other person

00:37:33.660 exactly yeah and that's key as well because you know some dining tables you're really tightly packed

00:37:38.660 now in american dining you prefer round tables and actually at the state banquets at the white house

00:37:44.360 used to be straight edge tables like we have in britain a lot more but jacqueline kennedy switched 0.98

00:37:49.280 them over to to round tables and that seems to be how it's stayed at a state level at the white house and

00:37:54.820 the beauty of a round table other than being more sociable is that you are less restricted and you

00:38:00.940 aren't immediately sitting next to somebody where you could elbow them but on a big grand straight

00:38:06.120 edge table you do have to be very conscious of where your elbows are going let's say you're at a

00:38:10.940 dinner where you're being served family style so all the dishes are on the table and you got to pass

00:38:15.840 them around to make sure everyone gets serving what are the rules of passing dishes so i have to be

00:38:21.240 honest britain is the only country that makes things difficult and passes things in the opposite

00:38:27.020 direction to every other country in britain we pass things around to the left so clockwise around the

00:38:32.400 table whereas in america in india in the middle east in africa every other country europe the plates

00:38:40.220 or the dishes go counterclockwise to the right that said i would say most brits don't know that rule

00:38:45.320 i'm just telling you from an etiquette profession rule that's the rule i think as long as you are

00:38:51.000 offering the people each side of you no one really cares whether it goes to the left or to the right

00:38:56.420 others interesting you talk about in britain it's kind of faux pas it maybe it used to be not so much

00:39:02.120 anymore but to ask someone to pass you a dish like directly hey can you pass me the potatoes

00:39:07.440 oh no that's that's a slap in the face in britain traditionally because you're sort of saying

00:39:13.020 look william if you had said that to me the subtext to that is william you have not seen that i'm sitting

00:39:18.840 here surrounded by no potatoes you have failed because again good manners are about other people

00:39:23.860 and so we've developed this very passive aggressive way in britain and we sort of say it now as a bit

00:39:28.980 of a joke but i can assure you it does work in practice if you had i know you wouldn't brett but

00:39:34.740 let's for sake of argument say that you didn't pass me the potatoes i would say brett would you like

00:39:39.820 any potatoes and you might say no thank you william but would you like some potatoes oh yes i think

00:39:45.360 i would actually and then they get passed when i read that it reminded me i think the dowager did

00:39:50.760 that a few times in down nabby or i just imagine i just imagine the dowagers just saying some sort

00:39:55.460 of passive aggressive thing like that well exactly and you know i think someone asked me a few weeks

00:40:00.520 ago do you think passive aggression is a good thing and i think you know what's better than active

00:40:05.180 aggression yeah yeah that's right there's also etiquette on passing the salt and pepper what's the

00:40:10.340 rules of passing salt and pepper yes so salt and pepper travel together is the mnemonic that we

00:40:15.460 teach children but it works beautifully for adults as well they are they're a married couple in effect

00:40:20.220 and you don't want to split them up so if someone says please could you pass the salt you would pass

00:40:25.300 both the salt and the pepper together in one hand if they'll fit in one hand but two hands is fine

00:40:30.380 and i think that goes back to necessity when salt and pepper pots used to be teeny tiny they weren't great

00:40:37.060 big mills or grinders like we have now they were much smaller and so you didn't sort of want to

00:40:41.740 split them up because then you might not find them tell us about salt cellars i never heard of these

00:40:46.940 things until i read about them in your book yeah the salt cell is a sort of small little little dishes

00:40:51.980 so i guess a lot of salt what do you have what are you what does your salt and pepper look like in

00:40:56.380 your house they're just shakers that we yeah yeah which which is sort of the more contemporary style 0.99

00:41:01.580 but going back to the downton or even pre- downton era salt was served in a little it would often be

00:41:07.400 a silver little pot but with an inlay of blue glass because if you put salt directly on silver

00:41:15.220 it will erode the silver and it doesn't taste then very good and it doesn't do the silver much good

00:41:19.680 either so you'd have this sort of blue little glass inlay that sat in there and that's where the salt was

00:41:24.800 and a tiny little silver spoon that you would spoon out granules of salt and put it on a in a neat

00:41:31.580 little pile on the edge of your plate and you would sort of add a couple of granules then using

00:41:37.100 the tip of your knife sounds terribly complicated onto whatever was loaded up on the fork are these

00:41:42.500 still used today i would say this one is being slightly relaxed most restaurants you go to now

00:41:47.300 you don't get salt cellars i would say salt cellars now you would see it in a very grand private house

00:41:52.540 if at all but most restaurants it's a salt shaker with one hole in it pepper has several holes and

00:41:59.960 you can apply it more or less wherever but try and taste the food first all right but if our

00:42:03.860 listeners they ever have a dinner at a manor they know what to do when they see us they do know what

00:42:07.540 to do all right exactly uh any other rules that a guest at a dinner party or maybe even an extended

00:42:12.920 stay in someone's home should follow to show proper hospitality proper manners yes i mean i i think it

00:42:19.860 obviously depends on context and whether you know them well or not but you know particularly i get so

00:42:26.020 many i do a podcast as well and so many letters we get in and about oh i had my family to stay they

00:42:33.380 stayed with us for an entire week and they didn't once offer to cook or they didn't take us out for

00:42:38.980 for a dinner to say thank you yes it's an awful lot of work having someone to stay in your house for

00:42:45.580 anything over one night and even that can be quite tricky so if you are going to to stay don't assume

00:42:51.660 that your hosts will be entertaining you all three meals of every day either and the stuff in between

00:42:57.060 but do offer to take them out to say thank you to give them a night off cooking or i mean that's i

00:43:02.660 don't know about you most most hosts don't want other people cooking in their own kitchen no i wouldn't

00:43:07.860 you can get quite territorial yeah but please let's order take out or let's go out for a nice meal in a

00:43:14.040 restaurant it's on us just something to acknowledge the effort that they're going to

00:43:18.700 take a nice gift write them a decent length thank you letter afterwards what's a good gift to bring

00:43:24.580 as a guest what's your go-to because i think a lot of people say like wine or that maybe that's

00:43:29.880 yeah and if i mean it's it's a good one if you know that they like italian merlot for example if

00:43:36.120 you know that that's their favorite wine take them a couple of bottles and it should be a couple

00:43:40.240 of bottles if you're staying for several nights might even be a case of wine if you're staying for a

00:43:44.860 week plus but if you don't quite know what they drink or indeed if they drink and more and more

00:43:50.040 people aren't drinking now particularly with the younger generations alcohol is probably not the

00:43:54.100 best thing so chocolates i mean the practice of post-test gifts goes back to chicago in the 30s

00:44:00.900 and chocolates were the absolute sort of that was all that was acceptable most people like chocolates

00:44:06.400 or can quite easily re-gift them if they don't but ideally you want to take something personal and

00:44:12.540 personalize to them you know one i heard and i would like if i got this was just like a nice

00:44:17.760 bottle of olive oil because i use olive oil a lot do you know olive oil is becoming such a popular

00:44:23.260 gift over here as well um in london and it's great i mean a good quality yeah particularly if it's italian 0.86

00:44:29.400 olive oil i mean over here it might be easier to get that than with you yeah it's a nice novel thing

00:44:34.240 it doesn't matter if you drink i don't think many people are allergic to oil so it ticks a lot of boxes

00:44:39.940 yeah and it often comes in a nice bottle that presents well too so i i like that uh let's talk

00:44:46.000 about elevators is there an etiquette for elevators oh yes if you're in a really old building in chicago

00:44:51.740 or new york or london the the elevator is probably going to be a little bit tighter than in a great

00:44:57.460 big new build somewhere in los angeles and so the senior person whether that's the senior in the

00:45:02.360 business or a lady or granny whoever would go into the elevator first the person who gets out of the 0.79

00:45:09.480 elevator first when it arrives at the floor is the person closest to the elevator doors and that's

00:45:14.220 the person who got in last it winds me up in hotels where they're taking you to your room and

00:45:18.540 you turn up at floor seven and they put their hand in front of the lift doors and you sort of have to

00:45:22.760 edge past them because they want you to go first but that's all very well but i don't know where i'm

00:45:27.360 going i've not been to this hotel before so i actually want i want the hotelier to get out of the

00:45:32.520 lift put their hand across the lift doors from the other side of the lift and point me in the

00:45:37.520 right direction much more courteous than sort of awkwardly edging edging past them is small talk

00:45:44.120 appropriate in an elevator or should you just keep to yourself i was having a heated debate about this

00:45:49.220 only a few hours ago no in britain it's so taboo to speak speak in an elevator i'm going to film a

00:45:54.860 social media video i think that just sort of has a group of us saying nothing in an elevator and then

00:46:00.720 i'll just say at the end we're british we don't talk in elevators or lifts as we call them over here

00:46:05.800 but look if you and i got in an elevator and we knew each other and there was no one else you can

00:46:11.120 absolutely speak but with everyone else brits are so private with their conversation and thoughts

00:46:16.480 we couldn't possibly have someone else over here what we're thinking or saying so there is normally

00:46:22.500 this very awkward silence yeah in an elevator well i prefer the silence too i'm i'm a big yeah

00:46:28.820 absolutely yeah so the british are famous for queuing standing in line any etiquette for line

00:46:36.740 standing yes i mean just sort of it's so democratic it's first come first served uh it's so straightforward

00:46:45.560 we get very irritated when someone tries to jump the queue and so etiquette rule number one is if you

00:46:52.940 don't like the rules don't play the game basically so if you don't want to queue don't queue and i think

00:46:57.000 you are going to be shot down in flames in britain if you sort of try to jump the queue and i would

00:47:01.340 say actually that's one of the commonalities between britain and america i mean i think we are

00:47:04.800 sort of the olympic gold medalists of queuing in britain but i would say you're probably the silver

00:47:09.460 medalists in in america where it doesn't even get bronze is the europeans and actually when you go to

00:47:15.560 disney in paris obviously american concept um as britain i've been to a lot of the disneys the american

00:47:22.980 ones are great because everyone follows the queuing standing in line protocol but in euro disney or

00:47:27.820 disney paris as it's now called yeah it's it's a little bit of a free-for-all and it's quite stressful

00:47:33.980 how do you handle line jumpers let's say someone tries to break that sacred social order should you

00:47:38.780 call them out oh yes no we would uh and i think we would sort of call them out probably giving them

00:47:43.980 the benefit of the doubt to begin with we might say something like oh actually the back of the queue is

00:47:47.720 just just here for example because it might be an innocent mistake if they then go no no i'm going

00:47:53.260 to join it from here then well you know that's a war crime is it proper to save places in line 0.99

00:47:59.040 can you do that if it's not a busy queue you could perhaps do it for maybe like a minute okay but i

00:48:08.040 would be very careful if and doubt don't so i would probably not advise that yeah i i agree it has to

00:48:13.880 be done in moderation um you gotta well yeah absolutely well william this has been a great

00:48:18.680 conversation and we only scratch the surface of what's in this book where can people go to learn

00:48:22.440 more about the book in your work yes the book is out now just good manners published by gallery at

00:48:27.160 simon and schuster it's available in all formats there's an audio book so if you're not sick of my

00:48:31.560 voice after this interview there's more of it on audio book ebook and hardback in all good bookshops

00:48:38.620 and uh any other place on the internet where they can learn about you

00:48:41.480 oh yes there's my instagram at williamhansen tiktok at williamhansen etiquette or my website

00:48:47.000 williamhansen.com fantastic well williamhansen thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:48:50.580 thank you so much brett my guest name is william hansen he's the author of the book just good

00:48:55.840 manners it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find more information about

00:48:59.660 his work at his website williamhansen.co.uk also check out our show notes at aom.is slash etiquette

00:49:05.900 where you find links to resources when we delve deeper into this topic

00:49:08.520 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

00:49:19.900 artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives and make sure to sign up for a new

00:49:23.280 newsletter it's called dying breed you sign up at dyingbreed.net it's a great way to support the

00:49:27.860 show directly as always thank you for the continued support until next time it's brett mckay

00:49:31.740 reminding you to listen to my podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:49:35.240 you

The Art of Manliness - May 27, 2025

How to Have the Manners and Charm of a Proper English Gentleman

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