The Art of Manliness - How to Land Your Dream job

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.320 Chances are you've got a job right now. Chances are even good, you have a pretty decent job.

00:00:15.780 There's also a good chance that you often desire something more from your work life,

00:00:19.320 not just a better job, but the kind of job you've always wanted, a dream job.

00:00:23.620 Whether you're currently employed or not, my guest today has concrete advice on how to turn

00:00:27.700 your longing for a dream job into a reality. His name is Ramit Sethi, and he's a personal

00:00:31.980 finance expert, the owner of I Will Teach You To Be Rich, and the creator of the Find Your

00:00:35.840 Dream Job program. Today on the show, Ramit explains why finding your dream job, even in

00:00:40.440 our current economic environment, is entirely viable as long as you understand that this

00:00:44.540 pursuit is a skill like any other skill. He then walks listeners through what the average

00:00:48.320 job seeker does wrong and what the skill of landing your dream job actually involves,

00:00:52.200 beginning with knowing which of the three career seasons you're currently in. We get into why you

00:00:56.520 shouldn't just look for an opening with the same job title that you have right now, but

00:00:59.720 you figure out instead what your dream company and dream role look like. Ramit shares the

00:01:04.060 10-second test you should do to determine if you got a winning resume and what you should

00:01:07.600 put in and take out of your resume, as well as your cover letter. We also get into how to

00:01:11.020 prepare for an ASA job interview, including how to answer the infamous, tell me about yourself

00:01:15.340 question, as well as other sticky questions like why you've been out of work for so long

00:01:19.340 and why were you fired from your last job. We end our conversation with considerations to think

00:01:23.480 about if you're contemplating changing careers to a completely different field. After the show's

00:01:27.540 over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash dream job.

00:01:41.340 All right, Ramit Sethi, welcome back to the show.

00:01:43.680 Thanks for having me.

00:01:44.780 So we had you on the show back in April to discuss, because the pandemic was starting,

00:01:49.780 what people should do with their finances to get ready for this unprecedented time that

00:01:54.140 we went through and are still going through. Before we talk about what we're going to talk

00:01:57.600 about today, we're going to talk about jobs. I'd love to get, like, what's your take? Like

00:02:01.180 this was back in April. How are things, how are you seeing the financial landscape now that

00:02:06.320 we're, you know, nine, eight months into this pandemic?

00:02:10.280 For people who have good jobs, for people who have savings, and certainly for people who have

00:02:18.080 investments, many of them are doing financially better than they used to, which is confusing and

00:02:27.880 surprising for a lot of people. You know, in what world could you imagine that the stock market would

00:02:35.140 have one of the best years in history during a global pandemic? Unfortunately, for people who don't

00:02:42.100 have jobs, or have lower incomes, no savings, and certainly no investments, things have not turned

00:02:48.660 out as well for them. And I think there's a lot of disproportionate trouble that's being placed on

00:02:54.040 lower income employees across the country. So, you know, what we talked about last time was

00:02:59.840 overreact, overreact, it's better to overreact than to underreact. And there are a lot of people

00:03:06.860 who listened to what we talked about and reached out and said, Hey, I'm so glad that I started to put

00:03:11.700 away more savings. They may still have a job, some of them may have lost it or may lose it next year.

00:03:17.860 But at least they know that they have savings. And then for the people who did that, and past that

00:03:23.180 first step of playing defense, they followed their plan in step two. And then step three,

00:03:27.440 they went on offense. For those people who have invested, many of them have seen tremendous gains,

00:03:33.560 which is great financially for those people.

00:03:37.400 Well, so let's talk about what you're thinking about lately. So in April, you're thinking a lot

00:03:41.620 about the pandemic, what people can do to get financially ready for that. Lately, you've been

00:03:45.720 thinking a lot about helping people land the job of their dreams, get good jobs. Why has that been

00:03:51.740 your focus lately? You know, it's funny for both of our audiences, I'd be willing to bet that over 90%

00:03:58.800 of them have a job. And if you ask people, what would your dream job be? It's actually really

00:04:06.880 interesting to hear their answers. A surprising number of people will say,

00:04:11.060 well, that doesn't exist. There's no such thing as a dream job. And I asked them this recently,

00:04:15.340 and that's what they told me. And when I start to dig into why, many of them say, well, nobody around

00:04:21.180 me has a dream job. This person hates it. This person has a terrible boss. This person is underpaid,

00:04:25.980 which really reveals that if you have never seen something, you don't think it's possible.

00:04:31.820 But I do. I've seen it. I've had a dream job. I have my dream job now, even though I run my own

00:04:37.900 business. And the reason that I've been getting more and more interested in this is that we spend

00:04:43.560 most of our lives at a job. Many of us have good jobs. I'm not talking about if you have a terrible

00:04:50.020 job. That's very clear that you should probably make a switch if you can. But it's really that tricky

00:04:54.660 middle where you have a job that's okay, but you don't like your boss, or you're not respected,

00:05:00.360 or you're not paid what you should be. And the final reason I got really interested in this

00:05:05.680 is that finding a dream job is a skill. And this is a classic misconception. A lot of people think

00:05:11.800 there are no dream jobs, or it's not for people like me. I didn't go to the right college.

00:05:16.140 Well, it turns out that finding a dream job is a skill, just like lifting or riding a bike.

00:05:20.640 It's something that can be learned. And when I started teaching people how to do it,

00:05:24.700 because I learned it myself, suddenly they started to land dream jobs. That's why I'm talking about it now.

00:05:30.840 Well, there's some people I'll be listening to this like, okay, dream job. That'd be great. But

00:05:33.900 this is a pandemic. Companies are laying people off, et cetera, et cetera. I should just settle

00:05:38.680 for whatever job I can get if I'm out of a job. What would you say to those people?

00:05:42.980 I think that that's a fair critique. You know what? There are times where it's an employer's

00:05:48.680 market, and there are times when it's an employee's market. And that is an important

00:05:53.080 consideration when you are looking for a job or when you're negotiating your salary.

00:05:58.740 And in certain industries right now, for example, if you are a waiter, yeah, it's definitely an

00:06:04.520 employer's market. That means that your power is lower. But I also think that when people say that,

00:06:10.560 they say it flippantly without really understanding the dynamics at play. You know why I say that?

00:06:17.760 Because people have been saying that for the last 10 years in one of the best employment markets in

00:06:22.460 history. I heard people saying, well, you know, I should just be lucky to have a job. Well, guess

00:06:27.140 what? If you say that when things are good, and you say that when things are bad, maybe it's not

00:06:31.440 about the economy. Maybe it's actually about your mental mindset. So a better way to approach it is

00:06:37.220 to say, have I developed the skills to number one, identify what even is my dream job? That's number

00:06:44.760 one. That's a skill. We can talk about that. Number two, do I know how to avoid the typical

00:06:49.460 things that people do to find their job, like spending years updating a resume and then submitting

00:06:54.760 it through some random website black hole of doom, and then just sitting back and waiting? That's not

00:06:59.940 how winners get their dream job. That's how average applicants get it. So the reason you hear me

00:07:04.620 getting passionate about this is that there's a much better way to identify what your dream job

00:07:09.320 is and then to land it. Gotcha. And those skills can come in even more handy whenever it's an

00:07:13.780 employer's market, because you can get the best deal you can get, even if the deck is stacked against

00:07:18.680 you. Exactly. Your competition doesn't know this stuff. You know, again, let's just take, if you ask

00:07:24.100 the average person, how did you find this job? How are you going to find your next job? I can tell you

00:07:28.400 exactly what they would say. They would say, well, one day at work, you know, my boss finally said

00:07:33.120 something that I just really didn't like. I went home, I decided I need to update my resume.

00:07:37.900 That's the first thing everybody does. They update their resume. So when they update it,

00:07:42.140 what are they doing? They're just randomly adding some chronological fact to the resume,

00:07:46.460 which is totally meaningless. And then what do they do next? They go to some website,

00:07:51.120 they search for the same job title they have today, the one that doesn't necessarily make them happy,

00:07:57.260 but that's all they know. And then they post their resume and they sit there and wait.

00:08:03.200 And they do that for two weeks. They check in, maybe they got a couple hits, maybe not.

00:08:07.580 They wait another two weeks. And then after two, four, six, eight weeks, they get demoralized and

00:08:12.560 they say, you know what? This economy sucks. But what have they done? They did what they were taught, 0.98

00:08:18.780 which is do 1.25 inch margins on the resume. Again, who cares? They submit it through a website,

00:08:25.960 basically delegating their job search to some computer algorithm. And then they sit back and

00:08:30.420 wait passively. And that's why when people think about a job, they don't think about a dream job.

00:08:38.000 But that's not how top candidates do it. And that's why I really want to emphasize the skills that I

00:08:43.520 learned, the things that I taught so that other people can land jobs that pay them well,

00:08:48.280 that give them flexibility, that let them have responsibility.

00:08:51.760 One question I have for you is, I've watched your career since you were, I will, when you're a

00:08:56.580 blogger, like in 2005, and you had your Ramit's kick-ass guide that I bought for five bucks.

00:09:03.300 One thing I've noticed about you, like a lot of people in that space,

00:09:06.320 when they're giving advice or offering programs that help people, it's usually about starting your

00:09:11.420 own business. Like you got to be an entrepreneur. If you work for another company, you're a sucker,

00:09:15.620 you're a sheeple. And you teach people how to start companies. Like you've done that, 1.00

00:09:19.900 we've talked about that. But you also say, no, if you want a job, like you work for a company,

00:09:24.800 not own a, be an entrepreneur, that's okay too. So, I mean, how do you figure it? Like when you're

00:09:30.200 talking to someone, they're thinking, well, should I just keep going, like being a company man,

00:09:34.900 working for another company, or should I strike out and be an entrepreneur? Like, how do you,

00:09:39.020 what do you tell that person? Like, how do you help that person figure out what they should do?

00:09:42.040 Well, first of all, I completely disagree with the idea that a lot of entrepreneurs throw around.

00:09:50.560 And that is the idea that you can only be successful if you run your own business. 0.98

00:09:55.600 And if you work at a company, you're a loser. I don't agree with that. I have worked at a company, 0.99

00:10:01.520 I've had a W-2 salary. I employ many employees, my coworkers. And I think that there are lots of

00:10:10.860 benefits to working at a company. You can have a bigger impact together than you can do it alone.

00:10:15.660 You can have stability and benefits better than you can have alone. And on and on, you can learn

00:10:20.520 skills more than you can learn alone. What I will say is that there can be a time and a place

00:10:27.000 to have a job or to be an entrepreneur or to do both of them at the same time.

00:10:34.220 But I really dislike this idea that is shared mostly by entrepreneurs selling an ebook that

00:10:40.740 the only way to be successful is to have your own business. That's not true. What I would say is

00:10:46.600 in order to build a rich life, you want to be challenged in what you do. You want to feel some

00:10:53.720 ownership and you want to build an asset. Now that asset can be a business. That's great.

00:10:59.220 It can be a stock portfolio, which I talk about in my book. So let's remember that most people

00:11:06.080 who become millionaires do so through a W-2 job. I want to say that again, because this is very

00:11:14.200 counterintuitive, although it shouldn't be. Most people who become millionaires do so through an

00:11:20.560 ordinary W-2 job. They build a 401k, they build their savings, and that's how the majority of millionaires

00:11:28.480 get there. Now you can define rich however you like, but let's stop stigmatizing people who have

00:11:34.540 jobs. Let's instead say, okay, I'm not going to settle for a fine job. I want to get a dream job.

00:11:42.620 So I'm going to learn the skills. I'm going to apply to the right companies. I'm going to spend

00:11:46.360 extra time upfront. I'm going to get paid really well because I'm really good at my job and I'm

00:11:51.660 building my skills. I'm going to become indispensable, but I'm not going to feel guilty about working there.

00:11:56.660 And if I decide I want to start a business, I can do that on the side. And eventually,

00:12:01.120 if I want to go full-time on that business, I can do that as well. That's exactly what I did with my

00:12:06.260 own career. That makes sense. That's how I've done it too. I'm with you. I think it's so dumb when

00:12:11.400 people just knock on people who work for companies. I know lots of successful people 0.95

00:12:15.940 that they've been a career person their entire life. Yeah. And I also think it's a little short-sighted

00:12:21.480 when entrepreneurs say that because what are you going to do when one day your business grows

00:12:26.980 enough that you want to hire employees? Suddenly, you've basically labeled every one of your

00:12:31.580 employees a loser. It's just disrespectful. And it's just not good strategy. I love my co-workers. 0.85

00:12:38.940 I pay them well. I have excellent benefits for them. They all work remotely. They have since day one.

00:12:45.320 And I respect them. I couldn't do what I do without them.

00:12:47.280 Um, so I don't think we should stigmatize people who work at a company. I think that there are times

00:12:52.720 and places where you may want to start a business, but a lot of people don't. It's perfectly okay.

00:12:57.720 Let's work on finding a dream job for you. All right. So let's talk about the skill of finding

00:13:01.740 a dream job. You say this is a skill like any other thing, like riding or lifting weights.

00:13:05.520 And you say the first thing that people have to figure out and learn is how do they know what a

00:13:10.640 dream job looks like for them? So how do you do that? What's the process like?

00:13:15.180 Okay. So there's this concept I want to introduce to people called career

00:13:18.500 seasons. Now this is a new concept that is exclusive here to, I will teach you to be rich.

00:13:24.420 So there's three different seasons that we've identified in people's careers. The first one is

00:13:30.120 growth for people in a growth season. That means you want to take on more work. You want to be paid

00:13:37.660 more. You want to hire a salary. You're willing to put in extra time, but you want to know that there

00:13:43.200 are rewards. This was very much me in my twenties. I didn't mind working on Saturdays and Sundays.

00:13:48.040 I didn't mind taking on extra responsibility, but I wanted my career trajectory to be vertical.

00:13:52.940 I wanted to be learning a ton. And I did. That was growth for me in my twenties.

00:13:58.160 The next career season is something we call lifestyle. Now, anyone who has had children may know that,

00:14:06.420 Hey, at certain points, you decide you're not willing to work Saturdays and Sundays,

00:14:10.100 you actually need and want to prioritize something outside of work. This could be children. It could

00:14:16.700 be an elderly parent. It could just be a hobby travel. Fine. That's lifestyle season.

00:14:22.160 And the third one is something we call reinvention. Think of the lawyer who's finally fed up and decides,

00:14:28.640 I want to be a beekeeper. Awesome. You just, you want to switch jobs, job titles, or even entire

00:14:35.480 industries. Okay. With each of those career seasons, you need to use different skills to find the right

00:14:44.320 job for you. So suddenly everyone listening, I want to challenge you. What career season would you say

00:14:50.620 you're in? Are you in growth? Are you in lifestyle? Are you in reinvention? You can only choose one.

00:14:58.240 It's possible. You know, everybody wants to start saying, well, I mean, I want to make more,

00:15:02.540 but I also want to prioritize my lifestyle. Pick one because it determines the most important jobs

00:15:07.700 you're going to look for. And I'll tell you exactly how this works. When you go out and you start

00:15:13.960 searching for the perfect job title and the perfect company for you, if you are seeking, if you're in

00:15:21.620 growth season, you're going to be examining this company and you're going to look at people who

00:15:26.080 work there. You can look them up on LinkedIn and you're going to see, have they been promoted

00:15:30.020 frequently? If the answer is no, and they stay in the same position for nine years, that's probably not

00:15:35.200 the right company for you. So you can eliminate that off your list. If on the other hand, you go and you

00:15:40.300 find a company and you're in lifestyle season. And in reading interviews about their company, you realize,

00:15:45.760 wow, they each work 60 hours a week and they're on call three times a week. Easy. Discard. But suddenly,

00:15:53.840 instead of simply going and typing into a computer, marketing coordinator, you have a totally different

00:15:59.640 lens to look at these companies and evaluate them through. So rather than ending up with 50 companies

00:16:05.740 where you just blindly submit your resume, you really want to end up with about five to 10.

00:16:10.300 And you want to be as specific as saying this. You want to say, I want to work for a B2C company

00:16:17.500 based in Seattle that has between one to 15 employees. And I want my job title to be

00:16:23.960 marketing coordinator or program coordinator. Okay, beautiful. Once you are that specific,

00:16:31.020 suddenly there's only about 15, 20 companies and you can really start to make a plan to network into

00:16:37.000 those companies and to create a beautiful resume and cover letter that will attract their attention

00:16:42.680 versus saying, I want to help people. And then just rifling your resume out to everybody on the

00:16:49.360 internet. All right. So that first step though, is figuring out what phase in your career you are.

00:16:54.040 Yeah. What career season.

00:16:55.320 Yeah. And I can see that being tricky because there can be some people who are in their 20s

00:16:59.080 and there might be the pressure to like, okay, I want growth. Like you're supposed to get growth,

00:17:03.460 but they really, they're like, no, I just want a nice career where I get a steady paycheck. I don't

00:17:07.700 need much. And it could be, you might go for the growth because all your friends are. And then you

00:17:11.920 find out I'm just completely miserable in this job.

00:17:15.120 Yeah. I mean, look, you and I both know this is true in life as you and I have taken different

00:17:20.160 paths from many people around us. We both realized early on, we were probably influenced by people

00:17:27.680 more than we cared to admit. But as you build the skill of really knowing yourself, you start to

00:17:35.440 realize what's important to you. And I realized what's important to me. So it's normal that we

00:17:41.060 would be conflicted. It's normal that most of us are influenced by the people around us. We're social

00:17:46.780 animals, but it is really important to get crystal clear about your career season,

00:17:52.160 because I'll give you another example. If you're in lifestyle, for example, and you decide, you know

00:17:58.320 what? I've gotten a taste of working remotely and I don't ever want to have to go back to an office.

00:18:03.980 Okay. Listen, first of all, I completely understand that because I've worked remotely for like 15 years

00:18:07.700 and I love it. I'm never going to do a commute. So how do you apply that to your job search?

00:18:13.160 Well, here's how. First, when you are seeking companies out to see if they might be your dream

00:18:18.940 company, you're going to look and see, do they offer remote work? Okay. If they do, that's a

00:18:25.660 definite yes. I'm going to apply there. If they say no, or maybe you can still apply there, but in your

00:18:33.020 cover letter from day one, you want to emphasize, Hey, I understand that you're based in DC, but I've

00:18:40.000 worked remotely for the last 18 months. I'm proficient in Salesforce, Jira, Confluence.

00:18:45.820 And if this makes sense for both of us, I'd like to continue working remotely. So from day one,

00:18:53.420 you're emphasizing what is important to you versus randomly applying to companies. And then at the

00:18:59.360 very last minute, when they make you a job offer, you say, well, I'd actually like to work remotely.

00:19:03.100 And they're like, no, that's not the way to do it. So as you can see, knowing who you are and what

00:19:08.700 you value upfront, lets you be completely transparent with these companies that you're

00:19:14.240 seeking and working with to find your dream job. And that's something to keep in mind.

00:19:19.580 They're transparent with you. They're telling you exactly, here's what we're looking for in a

00:19:24.680 quality candidate. And you can do the same to them. You're shopping for them just as much as

00:19:28.940 they're shopping for you. Well, I'm glad you said that. That's one psychological difference between

00:19:34.320 top candidates and everybody else. So average applicants, they walk into a job search or

00:19:40.840 certainly an interview, and they believe that their job is just to answer questions. That's

00:19:47.060 really what most people think their job is in an interview. That is wrong. Top performers know that

00:19:53.820 they are doing something completely different. First of all, they're discerning. They are interviewing

00:19:59.380 companies as much as companies are interviewing them. And when they walk into, for example, an

00:20:05.340 interview, they're not just there to answer questions. That's table stakes. They're there to

00:20:10.880 communicate their three key messages. Doesn't matter what you ask me, I'm going to get one of my key

00:20:16.580 messages into that answer. Doesn't matter what you say, I have a story and I'm going to make sure that

00:20:21.960 I tell that amazing story. So this is the difference. There's so many subtle differences between top

00:20:27.260 performers and average applicants. And like you said, average applicants just walk in and, you know,

00:20:31.760 they just, they take whatever companies are on a website. They search for random job titles. They don't

00:20:38.580 think that they have a network because, you know, they didn't go to some special college, but top

00:20:43.360 performers do it very, very differently. And that's how the job game is played at the highest levels.

00:20:49.480 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:20:51.200 And now back to the show. All right. So how do you find, like, where do you go to find jobs these

00:21:00.260 days? Cause like when I, I don't know, I, I haven't looked for a job in almost, I don't know how long

00:21:05.940 has it been? 12 years, 13 years. So I have no clue like where you would go to find a job. So like,

00:21:11.220 what's the, what, where do people usually go and why is that not a great idea? And like, what's a

00:21:15.860 better thing to do? Well, the typical way that most people look for jobs is they go to any one

00:21:21.140 of a number of job search websites. And what's funny is they take the job title that they currently

00:21:28.760 have, the one that is making them want to look for another job. And then they go and type in the

00:21:34.700 exact same job title. So here I am, I'm a product manager and I'm unhappy at my job because I don't

00:21:40.920 like my boss and I hate Excel. And I go over to some website and I type in what product manager.

00:21:49.360 Why do we do this? Why would we perpetuate the same job title that's making us unhappy?

00:21:55.020 Well, the answer is that's what we know. So a totally different approach is to first say,

00:22:01.820 okay, number one, what career season am I in? And to get crystal clear about that,

00:22:06.180 to understand the implications. Two is to start looking at dream companies. So there's a whole

00:22:14.320 methodology we teach, but I'll give you the short version here. You can go on sites like LinkedIn

00:22:20.020 and you can find other people who have a similar title or maybe an advanced title of what you have.

00:22:27.860 And you start to look at the companies they worked for. I did a video on this in the program

00:22:32.840 and I was, I think, a marketing manager. So I started sorting by companies with this many

00:22:41.060 employees, B2C, et cetera. And I found some really interesting things. I found a woman

00:22:46.780 who was a marketing manager previously at Disney. And I was thinking, wow, Disney is a phenomenal

00:22:54.360 company. That wasn't even on my radar. I added it to my spreadsheet where I was tracking everything.

00:23:00.400 I started looking for more dream companies. That's the first thing you want to have a list

00:23:05.260 of approximately 15 to 20 dream companies. The second thing you want to do is you want to find

00:23:10.680 your dream role. So it's one thing to say, I want to work at Disney. Great. But now we want to identify

00:23:17.060 the dream role. So how do you do this? Most of us only know the job titles that we know,

00:23:23.660 you know, product manager, product manager. But when you start to actually look through people's

00:23:28.900 careers, you start to actually leverage your network, you can realize there are tons of other

00:23:33.760 jobs out there that you may have never considered. For example, the difference between program manager

00:23:39.900 and product manager. The pay can be, it can be a $15,000 or $20,000 difference. And the work can be

00:23:48.480 very, very different just with one word being different. At this point, you've now got 15 or so

00:23:54.620 companies that are very interesting to you. You've also got a couple of job titles that you are really

00:24:01.720 excited about. You look at the job descriptions, you're like, yes, that gets me excited. Now you've

00:24:06.900 got the raw ingredients to begin a really effective job search.

00:24:13.660 And what's the next step after that? I imagine most people will be like, well, okay, my next step is just

00:24:17.740 send out resumes and cover letters. Yes. That's what most people do. See, most people jump ahead

00:24:23.680 right to the end in everything they do. With personal finance, this is the first question

00:24:27.620 they come to me. They're like, what do you think of Bitcoin? I'm like, what? What are you talking

00:24:31.780 about? You've jumped way ahead. Same with lifting. They go to someone who, you know, who's been lifting

00:24:36.120 for 15 years ago. Hey, bro, how much you bench? That's not the right question to ask. Okay, we should

00:24:40.780 instead be asking, what strategies do you use to show up at the gym three times a week? That's a good

00:24:45.920 beginner question. Before you jump to updating your resume. We want to go slow to go fast. So at this

00:24:54.420 point, we have decided, you know what, I think I like the idea of being a program manager at Disney and

00:25:03.940 Guitar Center and one other company. So we start looking at these companies. We also start leveraging

00:25:12.100 our networks. Why do I say this? Because you have no idea if a program manager is a good job title for

00:25:19.360 you. You also don't really know what it's like to work at Guitar Center. You've just seen some stuff

00:25:24.000 online. This is a key difference in what average applicants do versus top performers. You want to

00:25:31.900 reach out to people through LinkedIn, through email, or through your own network. And we have the exact

00:25:37.120 word for word scripts in the dream job program. And you want to be able to speak to them for 15

00:25:42.340 minutes and say, look, this is where I currently work. This is one of the reasons that I'm looking

00:25:47.160 to change. I would love to get your input on your career. Why'd you make the decisions you make? And

00:25:53.400 what do you like about your job? And what has surprised you? Imagine you talk to five people who have the job

00:26:00.900 title that you are interested in. Just five for 15 minutes. How much more would you know?

00:26:07.160 You're going to hear people tell you stuff like this. Well, you know what? This is an awesome title.

00:26:11.540 Most people who do this job for three years then switch over to product manager. Oh, that's really

00:26:17.380 interesting. I didn't know that. Or someone's going to tell you, you know what? This company is really

00:26:21.220 good, but you should be aware that everybody works on Saturdays. Oh, wow. That's really interesting.

00:26:26.260 Okay. Cross it off because I'm in lifestyle. Not interested in that. You're going to get intelligence

00:26:30.480 that you can never find on LinkedIn or publicly. And actually, people are very happy to do this.

00:26:36.740 It's just called an informational interview. You just have to know how to ask in the right way.

00:26:41.100 So suddenly, you've narrowed it down from 15 or so companies to about five. You've got a really key

00:26:47.740 job title. Now, finally, you are ready to create a very targeted cover letter and a very targeted resume.

00:26:56.800 And I want you to notice one thing, Brett. I want you to notice that people who started their job

00:27:01.900 search, you know, at the same time as you did two months ago, they've already submitted their resume

00:27:06.200 to 50 or 60 companies. So you might feel like you're behind, but they've gotten very few responses.

00:27:12.940 You've done what we call front-loading the work. You've put that work in. You've gone slow to go fast.

00:27:18.780 And now you have five exact companies and job titles. You know exactly what's going on at those

00:27:26.240 companies because you actually have relationships with internal employees. Now you are ready to begin

00:27:31.460 applying and your hit rate is going to be way higher than everybody else.

00:27:35.720 Well, speaking of resumes, I think a lot of people, you said the first thing people usually do is like,

00:27:39.140 oh, I'm going to update my resume because I hate that. I hate my job. And they just-

00:27:42.480 Yeah, don't do that.

00:27:42.960 They add one more thing and then they make sure the margins are tidy or whatever. So you laugh at

00:27:48.660 this. It's obviously like, that's not important. Like, so what should people be doing with a

00:27:51.660 resume to make it stand out? And with keeping them- So I'd love to get your input on this with all

00:27:56.640 these companies using like artificial intelligence to like scan keywords and resume to suss out

00:28:01.820 applicants. What's that look like today?

00:28:04.900 I want everyone who's thinking of looking for a dream job to pull out your resume, close your eyes,

00:28:10.560 and then look at it for 10 seconds. That's it. Put a clock there, 10 seconds, and tell me

00:28:16.920 in one sentence who that person is.

00:28:22.860 If you can't answer that, you don't have a winning resume.

00:28:27.840 This is what we call the narrative behind your resume. And it's that 10 second resume test that

00:28:33.500 we just did. When you look at most people's resumes, this is the average applicant.

00:28:37.440 They put their college, they have a whole bunch of chronology. Average people love putting

00:28:45.800 chronology. First I did this, then I did this. Two years ago I worked at this company, blah, blah.

00:28:50.460 Nobody cares. What you need to do and what is most important is what is the narrative of your resume?

00:28:58.760 Let me give you an example of what my resume was early on. You looked at it for 10 seconds,

00:29:03.960 that's it because that's how long a hiring manager will give you, 10 seconds. And instantly you would

00:29:10.460 say, oh wow, this is the technology and psychology guy who really knows marketing.

00:29:17.200 Now, what could your narrative be? It could be the performance marketer who can drive 10,000 leads a

00:29:24.000 month profitably. It could be the organizational leader who has managed turnarounds over and over

00:29:33.940 over again. It doesn't matter. Your resume is yours, but it should be crystal clear within 10

00:29:39.980 seconds. Your margins don't matter. The font you use is largely irrelevant. Chronology is not that

00:29:46.440 important. Much more important is removing the jargon and communicating the key outcomes that you

00:29:52.940 drove at the company you're working for.

00:29:55.640 So you don't need to put your proficient in MS Word or...

00:29:58.260 Yeah, just delete that. I'm so glad you said that. It's funny, I do like to keep people to

00:30:04.140 one page or maybe two if they have a very long career. But it's funny, when I go through people's

00:30:09.100 resumes with them, and I did this in the course, I actually redid resumes so you can see the before

00:30:13.800 and after. It's funny, as I go through it line by line, it's often the case that you can delete

00:30:20.860 30% to 50% of what's in a resume right off the bat. And that can seem intimidating because the first

00:30:27.640 thing people do is they worry, well, what am I going to put on there? But actually what that does

00:30:31.460 is it allows you to have the room to speak even more about the important things. For example,

00:30:38.640 do I care that you're proficient in Word? No. Instant delete. Every word needs to earn its way onto the

00:30:44.540 page. However, if you can tell me how you coordinated and collaborated with three other members of your

00:30:51.400 team to improve conversion by 18% in 12 months, hey, take five lines in your resume to write about

00:30:58.900 that. I want to know every detail. All right. So yeah, think of your resume as a story then.

00:31:03.660 And when you're applying for your job, look at what you did at your current job or your past job and

00:31:08.300 think, what were the high points in the story, that little mini story of my career? And I'm going to

00:31:13.380 highlight that. Yeah. And take out anything that doesn't support that story. It doesn't add to it.

00:31:19.580 And your job, again, this is a really subtle reframe. Average applicants think their job is to

00:31:24.140 communicate the chronology of what they did. Again, nobody cares about your chronology. I don't need

00:31:28.720 to know that you were born under a palm tree. I don't know. I don't care. What I do want to know,

00:31:33.960 who are you? What's your narrative? And then everything on that page should support that narrative.

00:31:40.960 All right. What about cover letters? What's the state of cover letters in 2021?

00:31:44.700 Cover letters are good. They are a great opportunity for you to tell a little bit more

00:31:52.840 about the key highlights on your resume and expand. Don't just repeat. That's a common mistake people

00:31:58.960 make. They just repeat what's on their resume. Look, I already saw your resume. Okay. This is how

00:32:03.820 hiring managers work. They look at your resume for 10 seconds. If they think you're worth it, they go over

00:32:08.780 to look at your cover letter. If they don't think you're worth it, you're instant delete. That's it.

00:32:12.600 That's how it works. And I think a lot of people would be surprised. You know, they expect, oh,

00:32:17.160 I spent all this time on this resume. I deserve at least five minutes of consideration. Hiring

00:32:22.600 managers are literally getting hundreds or over a thousand applications per job. You have 10 seconds.

00:32:29.420 So you better make sure that every word earns its way on the page. Now, as for cover letters,

00:32:34.320 this is an awesome opportunity to tell a story. Tell them why you are excited to apply for this role.

00:32:42.600 Tell them who you have spoken to, who works there or worked there and tell them why they got you

00:32:49.980 excited, right? Your name dropping here because you've done your natural networking. Tell them

00:32:55.440 why you are looking to make a change now and what you can contribute. And of course, as I mentioned,

00:33:02.080 if you're in lifestyle, this is a good place to mention that you'd like to work remotely,

00:33:06.140 but you can deal with that when the time is right. If you are looking to, you want XYZ,

00:33:13.480 you may want to mention it early on, right? For example, you know, I'm very interested in

00:33:18.440 contributing to the role and to developing my skills. Mention that. Tell them that you are eager

00:33:24.440 for growth. That's what you do in a cover letter.

00:33:27.680 And should people, like I mentioned earlier, I've been seeing these companies use more and more of

00:33:31.460 these artificial intelligence to like scan through resumes and like discard. Should people write the

00:33:35.840 resumes for robots or they just keep doing what they usually do? The ultimate goal is that if you

00:33:42.740 go through the dream job program, your job is not even being handled by these AI type bots. When my

00:33:49.780 students get jobs, the best way that they get them is their resume gets forwarded by someone internal

00:33:57.200 to the company. Now that's ideal. That doesn't happen every time, but we show you how to find

00:34:02.540 people at the company, how to do informational interviews. And if they like you, remember a lot

00:34:08.280 of people want talent. They want to work with great people. So if they like you, they're going to say,

00:34:13.200 Hey, send me a resume. I'll make sure it gets sent to the hiring manager. This happens over and over

00:34:17.280 and over again. So that's ideal. If that can't happen, right? If you simply cannot find an into the

00:34:24.120 company, yeah, you can submit it through the front door. As for, should you write for AI in general?

00:34:30.000 No, you should write to make sure that you are communicating your key narrative that if you are

00:34:36.180 searching for a product manager role, well, you definitely need to use the words product and

00:34:40.840 management and you need to use ROI and prioritization. Those are obvious, but aside from that,

00:34:47.540 you should not be depending on AI to save you. Do not delegate your career to an algorithm. That is

00:34:55.360 a classic mistake people make. All right. Let's say you've done all the stuff, you've thrown in

00:35:00.200 the resumes, the cover letter, send them out. Now you're getting called in for job interviews. I

00:35:04.560 guess a lot of them now are remote. They're doing them via Skype or whatever. You mentioned earlier

00:35:08.560 that a lot of people just go into a job interview thinking their job in this job interview is to please

00:35:13.380 the employer, right? Like I got to say all the right things, the correct, there's a correct answer

00:35:17.960 and I got to know what the correct answer is. People don't, you don't want to do that. So what's

00:35:21.900 a better way to prepare for a job interview? I want you to know your three key answers, your three key

00:35:29.620 messages. So for example, let's take my earlier resume narrative. I was the technology and psychology guy

00:35:37.480 who was very good at marketing. Okay. So guess what? One of my key messages needs to be

00:35:45.400 that I love understanding human psychology when designing marketing systems. And so if they ask

00:35:54.880 me, for example, why do you want to work here? Okay. Or let me ask a better question. Tell me about

00:36:01.160 yourself. This is the first question you're going to get in an interview. I would say 75% of candidates

00:36:06.800 go off right here. They get it wrong from the first question. When I ask you, tell me about

00:36:13.600 yourself. I do not want to know that you were born in this hospital. And I do not want to know that you

00:36:19.280 love kicks, cereal. Nobody cares, right? This I'm not your mom. I'm not your dad. I don't want to know

00:36:24.940 about your childhood. You need to have three key messages. So I might say something like this.

00:36:30.840 Well, as you can see from my resume, I'm very interested in technology and psychology,

00:36:35.640 and I've used those interests to be able to drive measurable results in marketing.

00:36:41.940 For example, at the last company that I worked at, we took a Facebook ad system that was performing

00:36:47.500 okay. And I looked at the data and I said, something is missing here. I went out, I interviewed

00:36:52.620 over 300 people. I built a system to incorporate their feedback. And eventually I learned that we were

00:36:59.440 missing one qualitative factor. It never showed up on the spreadsheets. It only happened because you have

00:37:05.540 to get in there and talk to them and understand their psychology. And when I fixed that, along with

00:37:11.220 my team, we were able to drive a 28% improvement in conversion. That is why I'm very excited to work

00:37:18.440 here because I know I can learn more from Acme Corp, but I can also contribute what I've developed

00:37:23.800 previously.

00:37:25.200 Right. So you're continuing that narrative.

00:37:26.380 Exactly. So everything should fit together. And remember, I did not tell you anything about,

00:37:32.600 you know, what type of food I like and all that stuff irrelevant, but I walked in there prepared.

00:37:37.340 I knew my narrative. Everything flows from that. And that hiring manager, notice what happened in

00:37:44.560 that answer. First of all, it was a story. It was not jargon. Like I like to collaborate. I like

00:37:50.500 teamwork. Nobody cares. Tell them a story, make it compelling, which means you need to practice ahead

00:37:56.420 of time and make sure that it is concise. Typically, I would say 30 to 45 seconds. And you're,

00:38:05.100 you're watching the body language of the interviewer. And you can even do these little

00:38:08.560 verbal drops. Like you can say, you know, if you'd like, I can go into that in more detail. But the key

00:38:14.120 thing that we took away was we need to interview our users, right? That's a beautiful little verbal

00:38:20.020 drop where the hiring manager might say, yeah, can you tell me how you did that? And then you have

00:38:24.400 permission to go deeper into that story. At what point do you start discussing compensation? Do you

00:38:30.080 start, do you discuss that during the job interview or after you're offered a job?

00:38:34.580 Typically after you're offered a job, but you can drop in little hints about it early on. So for

00:38:41.060 example, at the end of the first interview, the interviewer will say to you, do you have any

00:38:45.580 questions for me? You better have some questions. Okay. If you're making a decision on your career,

00:38:52.080 you better be intellectually curious about this company. You might say things like if you're in

00:38:57.220 growth career season, you might say things like, you know, one of the things that interested me

00:39:02.400 about Acme Corp is the potential for growth. And at my last company, people tended to stay in the

00:39:10.240 same position for over five years. I'm really looking for a more dynamic environment. One where

00:39:15.220 there's opportunity for promotion, for learning new skills, ongoing training. Can you talk to me

00:39:21.240 about how Acme trains and grows and develops its employees? Okay. That's a real question.

00:39:29.680 That's a question that shows you are serious about this role. And guess what? If their answer is,

00:39:34.820 oh, we don't do that. We don't train anyone. You're on your own. Then you should say,

00:39:37.800 thank you very much. And once the call ends, you should cross them off the list because they do

00:39:41.460 not fit your growth season. But if they do, you've let them know from the first interview,

00:39:47.940 hey, I'm interested in this. I'm here to grow. And so when it comes time for the negotiation,

00:39:54.700 which will be after they make you the offer, you can say, you know, as we discussed in our first

00:39:59.460 interview, I'm interested in growing my career. I'm interested in growing my results,

00:40:05.120 my compensation and my responsibilities. So I appreciate the offer you've made. I think we're

00:40:10.280 close, but I'd like to discuss negotiating this offer now. That's how you do it.

00:40:15.880 All right. So you negotiate after you get the job offering. Well, let's talk about

00:40:19.120 people who are looking for a job because they've been unemployed for an extended period. And I'm sure

00:40:24.260 you know this, like that's one of the most debilitating things that can happen to someone

00:40:27.260 because it sort of creates this vicious cycle. People see you've been out of the job market for a long

00:40:32.240 time. So you become sort of a pariah a little bit. And then you just get depressed and like

00:40:36.840 unmotivated to keep, you know, applying for jobs because you're, you know, it's like, what's the

00:40:41.160 point? I'm going to get rejected. So any advice for people who've been unemployed for extended period

00:40:46.920 and they're trying to get a, you know, get a dream job? Yeah. Well, first of all, I have a lot of

00:40:52.000 compassion for people who have been laid off. I have to tell you, I've been laid off.

00:40:57.920 So that does not feel good. And if it's been for an extended period of time, like you said,

00:41:04.180 it can be really mentally debilitating. So with that said, I think the best thing that people can

00:41:12.140 do if they are in that situation is number one, learn the skills of job hunting. Again, if you got

00:41:20.420 laid off and you go right back to doing what everyone else does in hiring or looking for a job,

00:41:26.120 you're just competing with tens of millions of other people. And with just a little bit of work,

00:41:30.980 you can learn how to do things differently. That's number one. Number two, if you get to the

00:41:36.280 interview, which I'm confident you will, when you use the right skills, have an answer for the question

00:41:41.920 that's the elephant in the room. The hiring manager undoubtedly is going to say, I don't see anything

00:41:47.240 on your resume for the last 18 months. How do you explain that? You need to have an answer for the

00:41:54.100 most common questions in your interview. If you look at your resume and you really are honest

00:42:00.020 about it, what are the common questions somebody might ask you? If you've job hopped, they're going

00:42:05.420 to say, why are you a job hopper? If you have jumped from one industry to another, they're going to say,

00:42:11.340 what do you actually want to do with your career? You just look like you're doing whatever jobs in

00:42:14.860 front of you. And if you've been out of work for 18 months, they're going to say, what were you

00:42:19.700 doing for the last 18 months? So I want you to prepare for this because the best place to prepare

00:42:25.580 is before you go in for an interview. One answer you can say is, I took some time for personal

00:42:31.920 reasons and now I'm excited to get back to work. And one of the reasons that Acme Corp is so

00:42:38.860 interesting to me is that dot, dot, dot, pivot right back to your key message. That's it. You address

00:42:47.040 their question. You took some time for personal reasons and now, boom, pivot right back to your

00:42:52.240 key message and why you are excited to contribute to Acme Corp. That's it. Hiring managers want to

00:42:58.060 know when they ask that question. They're not looking to do a gotcha. They're not looking to trick you.

00:43:03.820 What they want to know is what happened and what are you doing about it? And the longer your career

00:43:11.900 goes on, the higher your chances are of being laid off or being fired or making a mistake,

00:43:18.460 it happens to everybody. What's important is you admit it or acknowledge it. And then you have a plan

00:43:25.480 for what you are doing going forward. So one last thing on this, if you were fired and they ask you,

00:43:31.100 why'd you leave your last job? Don't lie. Never lie. Tell them, you know what? When I joined that

00:43:37.340 company, I was excited about X. As I started to get deeper into the role, I realized it wasn't the

00:43:43.840 right fit for me. Unfortunately, my performance slipped. My manager tried to correct it, but I

00:43:50.500 wasn't able to deliver the results that I had committed to. And I was let go. And I want to be

00:43:55.520 really transparent about that. And over the last six months, here's what I've done. Number one, I joined a

00:44:00.940 new training program. Number two, I looked back at what I did and I painfully examined the three key

00:44:07.580 areas I could have improved. And number three, XYZ. Hiring manager hears that and says, wow,

00:44:15.100 that's someone with a lot of self-awareness and they've made a plan to correct what happened in

00:44:19.840 the past. So whether you're laid off or fired, it happens, right? I understand it. Have an answer

00:44:25.820 and then pivot to what you are doing about it and your key messages.

00:44:30.680 One thing I like you just said there, though, it's kind of subtle is like, if you are unemployed,

00:44:35.100 like don't do nothing. Like you can, there's something you can do. Like if that means doing

00:44:39.160 online training or getting extra continuing education, do that. Cause that would look like,

00:44:43.940 Hey, you're, you're, you're actually maybe got better while you were unemployed.

00:44:47.780 Exactly. Remember you set the frame, you set the frame. This is so important. When you walk into an

00:44:53.520 interview, it's not like they can see into your soul. They're not going to be able to tell that,

00:44:57.860 you know, Hey, you've been pretty down for a couple of months. All they can see is what you

00:45:03.400 tell them. And while I want to emphasize, you should always tell the truth. You don't have to

00:45:09.460 tell them about all of your emotional roller coasters that you've been on. Instead, focus on

00:45:14.920 what you've done in the time being. Let's say you get offered a new job. Is there anything

00:45:20.860 considerations people take into account when they had to quit their current job,

00:45:25.080 like without burning bridges? Do you guys talk about that? Yeah. Yeah. This is a, this is a great

00:45:29.040 question. It's amazing to me that people think so much about finding a job and they're so deliberate

00:45:35.860 when they learn these skills, but they don't think as much about closing out a job that they've worked

00:45:42.720 at. And I think that's a big mistake because I will tell you that I've had former coworkers of mine

00:45:47.760 who left and they just did such a beautiful job of transitioning out. They told me ahead of time,

00:45:54.620 you know what, Ramit, I wanted to let you know that I've decided to take another job.

00:45:58.720 I'm absolutely willing to work with you and transition. I do have some flexibility on when

00:46:04.560 I can leave. And my intent is to leave with a new person hired and a full playbook so that they

00:46:10.460 are trained and ready to go. You're not going to have to worry about anything. That is music to my ears

00:46:15.500 as a hiring manager and as a boss. It also ensures that we leave with a really positive

00:46:22.660 feeling towards each other. So I've sent clients and I've sent business to people who have worked

00:46:28.020 with me before. I want to keep doing that. It's important, but make sure that if you can,

00:46:34.920 you communicate proactively to your boss. Once you have an offer, I would not recommend you try to

00:46:42.700 engage in a bidding war. I don't think that's a good idea. I think that's a classic mistake people

00:46:47.020 make. They get an offer and then they go back to their boss and say, Hey, I got this offer. What

00:46:50.460 can you do? You know, your boss might match it for the time being, but you're first on the chopping

00:46:55.220 block. And honestly, if you've gone through the process to find another job and you are excited about

00:47:00.900 it, take it. Okay. Take it, but leave by transitioning everything out. And remember that

00:47:08.180 your boss wants to know that things are taken care of. You know, your boss, she doesn't want to have to

00:47:13.840 worry about, Oh, is this thing going to fall through the cracks? And what about that vendor?

00:47:17.900 Do a great job. And as my track coach used to say, finish strong.

00:47:23.320 All right. So don't burn bridges. Let's not do that. The one thing we haven't really talked too much

00:47:26.560 about is the reinvention season. Any special considerations? There's someone who was like,

00:47:31.380 they want to go from lawyer to beekeeper. Any special considerations they should take an account

00:47:34.960 that they might overlook in that process? Yeah. The reinvention season is the least

00:47:40.420 common of all. And that is because the older you get, the more difficult it is to make a complete

00:47:46.400 career shift. It's difficult for monetary reasons. It's also difficult for identity reasons. Take that

00:47:53.760 lawyer, for example, who used to dress up in a beautiful suit and have the corner office and

00:47:58.140 their friends would say, Oh, wow, great. You got that great case. And suddenly they are a beekeeper

00:48:04.700 or they're working at a nonprofit. That's a big identity shift. Now you will know if it's time

00:48:12.400 to do reinvention because you've probably been thinking about it for years and you are ready to

00:48:19.380 make a move. Money doesn't excite you as much as it used to, or the reasons you got into that

00:48:23.640 career are not motivating you. A couple of things to consider. First off, talk to people who made a

00:48:30.740 similar switch. Find lawyers who switched industries completely. It doesn't have to be to beekeeping,

00:48:38.260 but it can be to anything else. And ask them, how'd you know it was time? What made you even start

00:48:43.680 thinking about this? And what were some of the surprising things you encountered when you first

00:48:48.220 made the shift? I remember I spoke to a former NFL player who got injured and had to leave and

00:48:55.040 he was looking for what to do next. And he decided to get into theater. Very interesting transition from

00:49:01.380 the NFL to theater. And he said that overnight he went from, you know, a celebrated athlete where

00:49:08.860 there would be people, thousands of people cheering him when he went out to play to being a complete

00:49:15.120 nobody. And that is very, very devastating, very devastating. So understand that what's it going

00:49:21.860 to take? What should you expect? Also think about money. If you are going to have to take a pay cut,

00:49:28.880 this happens sometimes though, not always. You probably want to start saving in advance. So you

00:49:34.720 at least have some breathing room and you also want to find out what is the average pay in the career

00:49:40.920 that you are considering. If you're going from $200,000 to $20,000, that's a very, very radical

00:49:46.400 shift. You need to be honest with yourself about whether you can take it. If it's, you know, $100,000

00:49:50.960 to $75,000, okay. Sometimes it's $75,000 to $110,000. Great. A lot of industries pay more,

00:50:00.800 but be aware of that. And if you do those things, your transition is going to be much, much more smooth.

00:50:07.360 Gotcha. Well, Rami, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn

00:50:10.880 more about your work? Okay. You can learn all about some of the techniques and tactics that I

00:50:15.980 taught you. You can go to iwt.com slash podcast DJ. I'll give it to you one more time. It's iwt.com

00:50:26.560 slash podcast DJ. And we'll give you a bunch of training and scripts and examples, resumes of how to

00:50:34.740 land your dream job. Fantastic. We'll include that link in our show notes as well. Well,

00:50:38.980 Ramit Sethi, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure. As always. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

00:50:43.420 My guest today was Ramit Sethi. He's the owner of the website, I Will Teach You to Be Rich. They've

00:50:47.940 got the Dream Job program going on right now. You can find out more information by going to his website,

00:50:52.260 iwilteachyoutoberich.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash dream job,

00:50:57.100 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:51:04.740 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at

00:51:10.740 artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written

00:51:14.500 over the years. And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on

00:51:18.320 Stitcher Premium. Head over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code manliness at checkout for a free

00:51:22.920 month trial. Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android or iOS, and you can start

00:51:26.720 enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you

00:51:30.380 take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that

00:51:34.160 already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you would

00:51:37.900 think would get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next

00:51:41.080 time, this is Brett McKay reminding you not only to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard

00:51:45.000 into action.

The Art of Manliness - January 11, 2021

How to Land Your Dream job

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript