The Art of Manliness - How to Plan the Ultimate Road Trip

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast after more than

00:00:11.680 a year of being cooped up due to pandemic restrictions lots of people are itching to

00:00:15.320 hit the open road and get the heck out of dodge if that's you my guests have some great tips for

00:00:19.840 planning and executing an awesome road trip their names are jeremy and stephanie puglisi and they're

00:00:24.140 the proprietors of rv atlas blog and podcast the authors of several books on camping and road

00:00:28.520 tripping and veteran road trippers themselves having to gather with their three boys spent over a

00:00:33.240 thousand nights at hundreds of campgrounds from coast to coast we start off our conversation with

00:00:37.140 how the puglisi's began road tripping with a pop-up camper and the benefits of driving to places

00:00:41.500 rather than flying to them we then get into how to dip your toes into rv without a big commitment

00:00:45.840 and whether there's an ideal age start taking rv trips with your kids from there we get into best

00:00:50.420 practices for planning and executing a road trip whether you're going by rv or car including the

00:00:54.960 biggest mistakes people make the art of road trip snacks and when it's better to fly versus drive

00:00:59.840 we also talk about how to keep kids entertained on the road including how to handle the issue of

00:01:03.720 screen time and we enter a conversation with the benefits of staying at campsites rather than hotels

00:01:07.800 why you might want to look into private koa campgrounds and why planning a great road trip

00:01:12.220 always starts with picking a great destination after the show's over check out our show notes at

00:01:16.360 awim.is road trip all right jeremy and stephanie puglisi welcome to the show thank you so much for

00:01:34.040 having us brad it's great to be here oh thanks so much so you all are rvers and not only that you help

00:01:40.340 people get into rv with books and you have a podcast and you've the book that i read and i really

00:01:45.600 enjoy it it's called see you at the campground a guide discovering community connection and a

00:01:50.040 happier family in the great outdoors it's about road tripping about rv but also camping instead of

00:01:54.780 staying at a hotel so i'd like to do with this podcast it's the start of the summer vacation

00:01:58.700 season and a lot of people are planning vacations a lot of people might be interested in rv we're

00:02:03.140 going to talk about that but also i just want to talk about road trips in general i know a lot of

00:02:06.900 people i've talked to this summer instead of getting in a plane to get where they're going they're

00:02:11.720 going to take a road trip so maybe we need some advice from the experts so let's start with this

00:02:15.540 how did you two get into rv like what's your story there well we actually started as road

00:02:23.680 trippers so it's nice that you just introed us like that because really we before we had kids

00:02:30.280 we just loved road trips um we've we started dating when we were pretty young we did a road trip to jazz

00:02:38.980 fest in new orleans when we were teenagers and we kind of took off and headed to new orleans and

00:02:45.520 explored that and we just traveled that way all the time over years of marriage before we had kids

00:02:51.680 we loved hopping in a car and driving somewhere and just kind of like seeing the landscape pass

00:02:56.800 outside the window you know it's like slow travel to me as opposed to just getting from point a

00:03:02.120 to be you know you stop and enjoy the ride right it's a cliche but i think it's true and when kids

00:03:08.520 came along the road trip got a little bit more challenging in some ways when they were babies so

00:03:14.520 we wanted to we really wanted to get out on the road with them we had twins and when they were about by

00:03:19.580 the time they were 10 months old we were really cooped up really needed to get out of the house so we

00:03:25.480 decided to do like a hotel weekend at a hotel with a water park attached and it was a complete disaster

00:03:31.020 you know we put the kids to bed realized that we had nothing to do we had nowhere to go that trip did

00:03:36.440 not go well so then when we got home we started throwing around the idea of a pop-up camper because

00:03:41.380 we wanted to hit the road with the boys and soon after bought the pop-up camper and really really

00:03:46.760 fell in love with the whole rv lifestyle i think more than camping we saw the pop-up camper as sort of

00:03:52.840 this little portable hotel on wheels and you know it was affordable too it's not expensive to get a

00:03:59.340 little pop-up camper so for us it was like okay we were celebrating our 10th anniversary we had twins

00:04:04.800 that was the gift that we gave ourselves to be able to sort of keep road tripping and keep having

00:04:09.720 adventures even though we had these little babies along with us and funny enough along the way we

00:04:16.140 ended up falling in love with camping and we really discovered the joys of the campground and sort of

00:04:22.480 introducing our boys to the camping lifestyle and that was the inspiration for the see at the campground

00:04:27.800 when did you all upgrade to the rv like the full on like what kind of rv do you guys have and when

00:04:32.880 did you upgrade to that so we're on like rv four or five right now after the pop-up most rv owners

00:04:38.780 upgrade every three years statistically so after the pop-up camper we kind of got sick of setting it up and

00:04:43.640 breaking it down because we were traveling quite a lot and doing multiple stop trips and the pop-up

00:04:48.840 camper is not really the best thing for that because there's a lot of setup and breakdown so i'd say two

00:04:53.860 years after we bought a conventional travel trailer and then after that a toy hauler and now we're

00:04:59.380 sitting in more of an upscale travel trailer i want a motorhome we constantly debate getting a motorhome

00:05:04.920 stephanie's not quite as excited by that idea but uh yeah we've been in traditional rvs now for six years

00:05:10.700 seven years and how often are you on the road now these days well obviously the last year hasn't been

00:05:17.040 a great you know year for rving for us so we did take some trips but typically prior to that we probably

00:05:24.120 traveled between 50 and 100 nights a year in the rv just depending on the year yeah we i mean for a lot

00:05:30.140 of rvers this past year was an amazing year i mean a lot of people really did hit the road but for us

00:05:34.620 we have kids in school and we're in new jersey where some of the travel restrictions were a bit tighter

00:05:39.400 so we probably canceled more trips than we went on this past year but now we're kind of getting back

00:05:44.380 in full swing for the year ahead all right so stephanie you mentioned one of the reasons you're

00:05:48.420 a big proponent of road trips it's like that slow travel i mean what are what do you think but besides

00:05:53.720 that what are the benefits of road tripping versus flying what have what have you all found you know

00:05:59.200 repeatedly i have two of my boys are now in middle school so we've been doing this for over a decade

00:06:05.340 with them and they've spent a lot of time in the back of the car in their childhood and it was so

00:06:11.080 funny over the years teacher after teacher just kept saying like your boys are just have such a wide

00:06:18.660 breadth like of understanding of the country like they'll just they have such a you know expanse of

00:06:24.220 like weird knowledge was pretty much what they were saying yeah and and too like it was really funny

00:06:31.000 over the years i have no idea how this came about but somehow they got really interested in real estate

00:06:36.320 like as we were traveling because they realized so many places look different than where we are

00:06:40.180 at the jersey shore and they would ask like what is that house sell for what you know what do houses

00:06:46.260 cost here so we ended up with this funny game of like opening up the zillow app no matter where we

00:06:50.940 were in the country and the kids got fascinated with how much the cost of living is different so i mean

00:06:56.700 i know that's a really random example but i just think that over the years of them staring out the window

00:07:02.700 in the back seat they just have seen the country in a way that you don't see it when you're up there

00:07:08.340 thousands of feet in the air we go to south carolina a lot if we had just been flying in and out of

00:07:12.440 myrtle beach our kids would not know a lot about south carolina but since we're road tripping to

00:07:17.020 myrtle beach or charleston or wherever it might be like our 12 year old boys could explain the culture

00:07:22.700 of south carolina in a pretty sophisticated way and like the whole route 95 corridor and they're like

00:07:28.000 you know they know what it looks like going into richmond and they know those stops along the way i think

00:07:32.140 road tripping just this past month or two months ago you know we were heading from point a to point b

00:07:38.540 and savannah was along the way and we weren't planning on stopping and i looked at jeremy i said

00:07:43.320 let's stop and my boys just got this wonderful two hours in savannah and we ate at this ridiculously

00:07:50.260 good hot dog truck and i know my kids well enough to know now that five years from now they'll mention

00:07:56.700 that hot dog truck yeah there's nothing wrong with a plane ride i mean we take plane places but

00:08:01.620 you don't have that serendipity right i mean that spontaneous stop you can't do that on a plane or a

00:08:06.900 cruise and we do that a lot in the rv you know all right let's pull over here and just grab lunch in

00:08:10.820 this town and check it out for an hour or two and those are very rich experiences as well even though

00:08:15.420 they weren't planned i also like road trips because this it feels more relaxing like i like i don't like

00:08:20.580 flying i like i've decided i do not like flying it's my least favorite thing it's just it's so

00:08:25.280 undignified you have to stand in line getting herded yeah getting herded and then you get on

00:08:31.280 the plane you're kind of stuffed in there and i just i i when i'm on a road trip i also like

00:08:36.360 the feeling of road trip like you feel like you're in control like i hate being like well

00:08:39.760 my flight my flight's delayed i can't do anything about that with a road trip it's like well not a

00:08:43.440 problem you know i can i can keep going and i think that that was one of the reasons it's been

00:08:49.220 such a pleasure for us to travel this way with our kids was you know the the joy of having

00:08:54.600 those decisions at your fingertips every minute you get a lot less stressed right you can always

00:08:59.780 take a time out with your kids and say let's just relax let's just stop at the side of the road at a

00:09:04.960 rest stop and kick a soccer ball around you know and and just having those choices with us even

00:09:10.940 bringing along there are things that help them feel a little more comfortable right has been a real

00:09:15.820 blessing and in our bay one of the things that we preach about a lot is you can pull over in a rest

00:09:20.940 area and make lunch in your own kitchen you can use your own bathroom like we don't have to use

00:09:25.120 the restrooms on the new york three-way if we don't if we don't want to so you use the word control and

00:09:30.080 i think that's a great way to put it it's this interesting combination of freedom and control

00:09:34.020 that makes the experience pretty pretty awesome for us i also like the feeling on a road trip that

00:09:39.060 you're like no one knows where i'm at i also like for some reason i like that like when i'm in the

00:09:42.820 middle of new mexico i'm like no one knows where i'm at i for some reason it just feels so good to

00:09:48.920 have that feeling well and this is like the year of the road trip to some degree i mean i think that

00:09:54.660 covet has made us all re-examine how we travel and you're not the only one feeling that way right now

00:09:59.620 i mean i'm dying to get back out on the road this summer well let's talk about a little bit about

00:10:03.720 arvin because i know a lot of people they like the idea of arvin they probably saw something on

00:10:08.840 instagram someone's doing the van life thing or whatever and like i want to do that but they don't

00:10:13.740 they're afraid to make that leap then they're not they don't know if they're actually going to like it

00:10:17.820 right they like the idea but they don't know if they're going to like it so any advice for people

00:10:21.340 who want to test the waters with arvin i think that it is so smart to rent instead of buying an

00:10:28.760 rv straight out 10 years ago that wasn't as easy as it is now now there's all of these rv

00:10:35.080 sharing you know platforms which are basically like the airbnbs of rving and you can easily find

00:10:42.820 a nice small motorhome which is what i suggest that you you start with when you're looking for

00:10:48.960 a rental and you can just try it out and see if it's for you now the price tag is a little shocking

00:10:53.960 for some people sometimes people think oh a rental rv vacation is going to be cheaper maybe than a fly

00:11:01.560 and drive or a hotel stay that's not necessarily the case remember you're paying for convenience right

00:11:08.320 you're going to be driving your little hotel room around you get to park it wherever you want you get

00:11:13.120 to have food in your kitchen and your own bathroom along the way so actually you're paying for a lot

00:11:18.440 of those conveniences and it ends up we found over the years we spend about as much on a rental rv

00:11:25.920 vacation as we would on a fly and hotel stay but if you're testing out the concept of buying an rv yes it

00:11:31.460 might be expensive to rent a motorhome for the weekend but if you spend six hundred dollars renting a

00:11:37.060 motorhome for the weekend and then decide you don't want to buy one you know you just saved a hundred

00:11:41.280 thousand dollars or if you rent it and you say well i love it i feel more confident going ahead and

00:11:46.120 buying it it is really truly a great way to just kind of get a taste of it and see if you want to

00:11:51.320 make a bigger financial plunge i would caution people that it's not the whole experience right like

00:11:57.160 when you rent an rv people have a blast doing it and people that have done a rv rental usually say

00:12:02.820 their kids remembered it forever you know it was such an amazing adventure but you have to remember

00:12:08.780 there is a steep learning curve with rvs so you're not really getting the whole experience of having

00:12:15.540 your own personal rv stocked with all of your stuff and you know the comfort level of that it is going

00:12:21.460 to be a little more stressful because you don't know how to empty the tanks like we do as rv owners so

00:12:27.420 you're gonna have to figure that out oh so can we stop for like a quick pause and a side sort of

00:12:33.240 side tour like nomenclature so you've been guys saying rv motorhomes pop like what are what they're

00:12:39.000 all rvs all they're all rvs okay and what a pop-up camper is an rv a travel trailer is an rv a motorhomes

00:12:44.740 an rv a pop-up camper that we owned first they're all rvs and then there's two main types of rvs

00:12:49.960 there's a motorhome which is the kind you drive and there's a towable which is the kind you pull behind

00:12:56.900 a tow vehicle and for a rental a motorhome is so much easier because it really feels like you're

00:13:03.760 driving a u-haul truck it really does it's not a big deal i was just behind the wheel of one this

00:13:08.100 past weekend and i hadn't been behind the wheel of a motorhome in over a year and it was fine a

00:13:12.920 towable i think there's a steeper learning curve on hitching up on hitching like in the popular

00:13:17.840 conception in the popular mind like an rv is a motorhome but actually 90 percent of rvs sold are

00:13:23.340 towable and only 10 percent are motorhomes but it's motorhomes that sort of that's what everybody

00:13:27.560 thinks of gosh is a pop-up camper a towable yes yes it is and it's this little nice small box

00:13:34.440 and then it opens up and you get the tent ends and that really nice beautiful like very dreamy kind

00:13:41.340 of open tent experience so you recommend for people who are wanting to test the waters don't go maybe

00:13:47.000 don't go the towable pop-up camper just check out a motorhome well i think that depends like if you're

00:13:52.520 thinking about buying a pop-up camper why not rent a pop-up camper if you're thinking about buying a

00:13:57.220 motorhome why not rent a motorhome i guess it just depends on what your intention is if you just want

00:14:00.700 a vacation i think is what stephanie said yeah take the motorhome i would say take the find your

00:14:06.360 under 30 foot classy motorhome and that's going to be the easiest thing to kind of get around in for

00:14:12.820 your first time all right so a lot of people who are doing the rv they want to do it but they're

00:14:17.820 they've got little kids and they're concerned oh my kid's gonna like this what's been your

00:14:21.520 experience i mean should people be concerned about that or is there you know an age you

00:14:26.260 recommend you start taking your kids in an rv or can you go right when they're fresh out of the

00:14:30.540 womb basically well we did go they were pretty fresh out of the womb what our third was six weeks old i

00:14:38.520 think the first time we took him camping and he's lived his whole life you know at the campground

00:14:42.660 but i do think that one piece of feedback we hear a lot right like our kids have been doing this their

00:14:48.980 whole life but the one piece of feedback that we hear is that people who start older with their kids

00:14:55.220 wish they had started younger right like when you wait to get to that middle school age is anything

00:15:02.020 cool in middle school right do middle schoolers actually enjoy anything or you know they've kind

00:15:07.260 of gotten that too cool for school air about them we've heard that from a lot of parents that when

00:15:13.220 they raised their kids with this experience it was something that they looked forward to every year

00:15:18.100 and conversely we've heard from people i don't want to buy an rv my kids are too young they're not

00:15:22.620 going to remember it i want to wait till they're older and stephanie and i have really never believed

00:15:26.680 that like we think there's incredible value in traveling with your kids even if they are at an age

00:15:31.400 where they won't technically remember it because we've always felt like you're you're training them

00:15:35.860 to be travelers you're training them to be road trippers you're training them to be flexible

00:15:40.280 so we always tell people start as young as you can possibly start i mean a sleeping baby can keep

00:15:45.940 a baby that can't sleep is going to keep you awake at home or in the rv so you might as well be

00:15:50.180 somewhere and are beautiful and exciting i'll also say that we didn't fly because we had our camper

00:15:55.060 and our rv trips we didn't fly with our boys until they were i think seven and four or somewhere in

00:16:03.040 that age range and by the time we did fly with them they knew how to travel like they were such

00:16:10.980 great travelers that our first airport experience was just like seamless like they were fine they

00:16:16.500 knew how to be team players right because we've taught them to break down a campsite or set up a

00:16:20.440 campsite or carry you know luggage around or they had no problems and i was like i really had felt like

00:16:27.000 it was the perfect kind of segue into different kinds of travel with them our kids know how to be

00:16:32.920 in new environments and to thrive in new environments and we really feel like travels

00:16:38.420 contributed to that like they're they're not afraid to go out for this team or to step into

00:16:43.840 this new environment or to go meet this new friend and we think that part of that is all the traveling

00:16:48.380 over the years well we also kind of trained them to have a little more independence at the campground

00:16:53.780 too right like we would be at these campgrounds and it would be kind of like a pretty safe place

00:16:58.420 to be able to teach them how to ride their bikes or i think all three of our kids learned how to ride

00:17:02.240 bikes at a campground and then you can say okay you can go to the camp store right by yourself for

00:17:07.700 the first time when they're however old and they learn how to like have money in their pocket and go

00:17:12.960 to the camp store and i think a lot of those you know life events were a little easier for us to

00:17:18.860 train and manage because we were in these little pockets of community that a campground is

00:17:23.700 all right so one last question about the rvs before we move on so you mentioned uh cost for

00:17:27.400 anyone about the same price you'd pay for a fly in hotel so we're looking at two thousand dollars

00:17:32.560 three thousand dollars yeah so usually i would say the kind that i mentioned like the motor home

00:17:38.060 would be two something 200 something a night obviously our prices here in the northeast may be a

00:17:43.500 little higher than some other people's prices but in the 200 range per night and then you'd have a

00:17:49.220 campground cost remember so that's going to vary if you stay at a public campground you could have

00:17:54.040 one as low as 20 30 a night or if you stay at a resort or fort wilderness in disney world you could

00:18:00.260 pay 200 a night and then what's the price what's the going rate for an rv motor home or or pop-up

00:18:06.180 camper these days so like a pop-up camper brand new could start at under ten thousand dollars and then

00:18:12.580 like the conventional travel trailers that we're in could be 20 to 30 to 40 the big fifth wheels can

00:18:19.400 be 60 70 80 thousand dollars and then generally speaking motorhomes start at about 80 thousand

00:18:24.980 dollars and you could go as high as you want you know if you're in a customized prevost or something

00:18:29.600 you could be spending a million dollars but there's a lot of plus minus in the hundred thousand dollar

00:18:34.820 mark for motorhomes so it just depends on what you want you get as fancy as you want or simple

00:18:39.360 yeah and if you get a diesel or a gas engine in a motorhome so if you get a diesel engine then

00:18:43.620 you're looking more at over two hundred thousand dollars if you're staying in a gas engine it's

00:18:47.280 going to be typically less than two hundred thousand dollars the rv industry has done a great job at

00:18:51.800 having like a really wide variety of price points and floor plans and it it's there's way more to choose

00:18:58.140 from than when you're like buying a truck right when i go to buy a truck there's the three or four major

00:19:02.020 brands there's not there's not many options for like floor plans people get really actually

00:19:06.920 flustered and confused rv shopping because there's so many options which so it's kind of like a positive

00:19:12.080 and a negative and then i imagine i think you did the cost breakdown on the book once you make the

00:19:16.920 investment and buy an rv like your cost of vacation start plummeting yeah for sure and you can do you can

00:19:24.880 control your costs right i could splurge on every rv vacation but you can also eat in i mean the the

00:19:32.560 biggest cost when we go away without rv is food like eating out all of those meals with three kids

00:19:39.480 adds up and my two older boys eat like adults so our sticker shock at restaurant bills is really high

00:19:45.860 and at in the rv you know we'll have breakfast lunch and dinner some days all the rv even in disney

00:19:52.420 world we'll do breakfast and dinner at the rv and maybe have lunch in a park or something i mean you

00:19:57.740 can just save so much money on that food price eating out when we're staying in a hotel could

00:20:03.520 easily be three hundred dollars a day with our rv in our own kitchen it could be three hundred dollars

00:20:08.660 a week same as our food bill at home really we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our

00:20:13.440 sponsors and now back to the show all right so a lot of people are going to take an rv but a lot of

00:20:20.440 people are just going to go on a road trip just in their cars you guys have been doing this for for

00:20:25.180 years what are the biggest mistakes you've made or you see people make when planning and executing a

00:20:31.680 road trip so i really think that these days you have to plan ahead i know everybody loves the idea

00:20:38.940 of like jumping in the car let's see how far we go before we need to stop i've found that that

00:20:45.620 actually only causes stress every time we want to be casual about our plans it really causes stress as

00:20:52.760 opposed to like feeling free and you know adventurous so i do recommend really knowing

00:20:59.680 where you're going to stop for the night there's freedom in the discipline like stephanie's a very

00:21:03.940 disciplined trip planner and then that opens up a lot of time on the trip and a lot of freedom on

00:21:09.560 the trip because we're not worried about getting this reservation or getting tickets for that or

00:21:13.720 renting kayaks here you know we do all of that ahead of the time even though it might not sound as fun

00:21:19.400 to do it that way but we plan a trip you know from top to bottom and we've opened spaces i mean i

00:21:24.360 learned early on like oh you think oh let's just see how it goes and then the one day that you're in

00:21:28.900 this town is the day that is the monday when they don't do the rafting tours that you want it to go

00:21:34.200 on you know and you didn't know that ahead of time or you find out that just a lot of things get

00:21:38.200 booked up in advance some of the most magical experiences we've had like i'm remembering going out

00:21:43.380 on that chuck wagon ride in the bad you know in south dakota and just having this amazing night

00:21:49.320 of like having this steak dinner out in the middle of the black hills and those are things that sell

00:21:54.600 out and you just have to plan ahead if you want to have some of these amazing experiences i think

00:21:59.720 another mistake people are going to make this summer is is heading to the most popular places

00:22:05.140 i'm all about going to yellowstone i'm all about going to yosemite acadian national park but if

00:22:11.140 you're going to go to acadian national park on a summer weekend and you plan on doing the park loop

00:22:16.260 road it's probably not going to be fun you're probably not going to build the park you know

00:22:19.840 this summer with the number of people road tripping this might be the summer to do like the

00:22:24.840 baretooth mountains in idaho instead of yellowstone this might be the summer to do north cascades in

00:22:30.220 washington instead of olympic it really could be the summer to find some things that are off the beaten

00:22:34.720 track a little bit and not just off the beaten track but off of peak hours so another mistake that

00:22:40.320 people make and we see it all the time as you know travel writers who and people tell you about

00:22:46.000 their experiences places the difference between experiencing an amazing location at eight o'clock

00:22:52.320 in the morning when you're the only you know people there are one of the handful and at 1 p.m in the

00:22:57.840 afternoon when the tour buses have arrived and everybody's like flooding a place it's just night and

00:23:03.840 day there's no comparison between you know the same place we've been in these places at these different

00:23:09.440 times and it's like wow you just really have a hard time enjoying with the crowds i know that's the

00:23:14.460 case of i think places like mount rushmore right like you hear people talk about that rushmore like

00:23:18.960 oh my gosh we went on the fourth of john you couldn't breathe you know there were people everywhere

00:23:22.560 and so we really encourage people to find those off peak times whether it's we've always gone to

00:23:28.940 popular places early in the morning some people go later in the day also go during the week as much

00:23:35.100 as possible instead of the weekend like really try to take yourself to places outside of peak hours

00:23:40.740 gotcha all right so biggest mistakes kate first off you want to plan don't try to do the i'm going to

00:23:46.400 fling it road trip and then don't go to popular places because you're not gonna have a good time and

00:23:51.760 then try to plan your things off of peak hours can i say one more yeah go for it i'm a mom i'm gonna

00:23:57.940 tell you never be without food and drinks that's a good one i think if everybody gets cranky when

00:24:06.500 they're like thirsty and when they're hungry and so we really always have food and beverages coolers

00:24:15.220 in the back with some cold drinks jeremy's like the king of the cold drink cooler and it just everybody

00:24:21.640 can get a break have a snack and have a refreshing drink when they need it and that makes a difference

00:24:25.640 well speaking of do you all what's your philosophy towards road troop snacks do you buy them all before

00:24:30.520 you leave or do you buy stuff along the way at the the gas stations you see along the freeway

00:24:35.060 yes and yes our kids devour i mean we pack a lot of snacks because it's obviously cheaper to buy like

00:24:41.200 a box of cliff bars and to buy one at the rest stop every single time but no matter how much stephanie

00:24:45.860 does pack in terms of snacks and drinks we do seem to plow through them and then end up like refueling

00:24:51.080 along the way at the pilot flying jay or whatever it is my kids are suckers for the snack aisle in a

00:24:57.380 gas station so we kind of do a balance right we always make sure we have like healthier food like

00:25:02.860 i love those single serving hummus with like crackers or things like that that are like okay guys we can

00:25:09.000 take a break from the slushy machine you know at the gas station but then at the same time you feel

00:25:15.660 like it's kind of part of the experience like they they get excited for those rest stops and so you

00:25:21.620 can't completely take away the joy of a 12 year old boy wandering you know the pilot yeah we just

00:25:27.580 have five hours have a yogurt you know yeah so we try to balance it i mean i feel like that's the case

00:25:34.220 with everything on a road trip if it gets too much right if you're eating out every meal your kids

00:25:39.480 start to get pretty cranky and miserable and you do too and then if you're not eating out at all

00:25:45.340 you're missing out on like the joy of a food culture in a place and experiencing that so

00:25:51.040 it sounds so corny but it really is about balance and that balance is going to change

00:25:56.920 every single road trip that you go on all right so pre-pack some snacks but also make room for the

00:26:02.200 funyuns at the uh the loves country story combos if you're our kids oh yeah the combo yeah my kids

00:26:07.520 love the combos too so uh let's talk about this what do you think is the right length for a road trip

00:26:12.500 so in terms of how far you drive or in terms of like how many days you go away oh that's like i

00:26:18.300 both so we we drove to mount rushmore to south dakota and on the way out we broke up the trip and

00:26:24.880 stayed like in indiana and it was totally great it was totally fine we had an amazing trip in south

00:26:30.740 dakota it was one of our best family trips ever we were out there for two weeks but then we drove

00:26:34.800 straight home 20 hours maybe and it was just like three 10 hour days of driving in a row and we were

00:26:43.200 all miserable like that just did not work for our family so in retrospect i wish we had stopped a

00:26:49.920 little more had a day off done something you know done the rock and roll hall of fame in cleveland or

00:26:53.880 something on the way home to break that up so multiple days of driving in a row is definitely too

00:26:59.680 much for us everybody's gonna have a different tolerance i found after a decade with the boys

00:27:05.440 and we have gone all over the country my rule over the last few years that i you know try to stay firm

00:27:12.580 on with jeremy but sometimes i give in is that if i have to drive more than one full day right like more

00:27:20.460 than a 12 hour day plus some we're flying so we used to do a lot more longer but i was like you know

00:27:26.980 what if it's more than that and we're just going to be blowing through from point a to point b we're

00:27:32.180 not going to be stopping you know and enjoying the sights then let's fly and then oftentimes we rent a

00:27:37.400 car and do a nice road trip loop like we did we did this in the pacific northwest we flew into seattle

00:27:43.880 we did an amazing road trip all the way down to the redwoods and back up on a loop we hit so many

00:27:50.660 amazing places and that was a better way to do that as opposed to driving across country which would

00:27:55.980 have been miserable and that's tied into us having three younger kids right if we were retired you

00:28:00.040 just you take your time getting wherever you're going but we often have a 10 day window before

00:28:05.140 there's the next soccer tryout or before school's back in session or whatever so we will definitely

00:28:10.520 travel differently when the kids are out of the picture yeah and i think that now i just go you

00:28:14.840 know what 10 hours our boys can actually get through 10 hours no problem longer than that i'm gonna tap out

00:28:21.120 so okay so it sounds like here when you're planning a road trip if you're trying to if you're just

00:28:25.980 trying to get to a destination that's far away because you want to do something there your best

00:28:30.560 bet fly there uh but if you if you have time and you you need to get that destination but you have

00:28:36.280 time to get there to make stops throughout the like road tripping is okay yeah and i think do a loop

00:28:42.460 right this is something that we've learned like if you're just doing the same route there and back

00:28:47.620 you lose the magic of that road trip right but if you can plan a loop like we did out in south

00:28:54.060 dakota our trip out to south dakota or out in the pacific northwest where we went out you know in

00:29:00.460 a big circle basically through washington oregon and california so every stop along the way is

00:29:08.440 different and fun well we had 28 days to go to the pacific northwest so we chose to fly and there

00:29:14.420 was two days of flying and 26 days in the pacific northwest if we had towed our rv during those you know

00:29:21.520 26 days or whatever uh half of it would have been driving getting there so you know flying and

00:29:26.380 driving is perfectly fine too you know you can maximize your time out of place if it's far away

00:29:30.380 gotcha all right so what's your you guys have like a limit so 10 hours a day is probably your

00:29:35.640 limit on what you're willing to drive it gets done yeah we just did what did we just do 17 hours

00:29:41.580 we drove straight back from florida to new jersey but 17 hours but it was we had to and we did it and

00:29:47.220 the thing is is we talked before about like training our kids honestly like our kids are

00:29:51.980 so well trained that we did it we were just miserable because we just kept swapping and let's

00:29:57.280 be honest the devices helped on that type oh yeah they're not we're not playing roadside bingo the

00:30:02.500 whole time right it's not 12 hours of the license plate game the kids are staring at their phones

00:30:06.980 blessedly well i want to talk more about that screen time on road trips but before do you guys done the

00:30:11.420 thing where i know there are some families that i know that do this where they'll leave at like

00:30:16.440 nine o'clock at night so the kids sleep and then they they they drive during the night

00:30:23.360 have you guys done that thing that we tried about every time we tried that can work really really

00:30:29.100 well and like for us we're in new jersey and we road trip a lot up into new england we go to kick

00:30:33.760 caught a lot and by doing that you miss all the morning traffic around new york city or around dc

00:30:39.860 you know that allows us to go north or south and get past some major metropolitan areas

00:30:43.920 and our kids actually love that they actually for whatever reason they love packing up the car

00:30:49.360 getting in at nine o'clock at night and knowing they get to conk out while we do all the hard work

00:30:53.780 basically yeah and the only issue for parents to consider with that is will your kids actually

00:30:59.880 sleep when our older two were little and we tried it a couple of times it was not successful because

00:31:05.440 they didn't sleep through the night like they were supposed to but now that they're older they'll just

00:31:09.720 pass out in the car again once we get in so will your kids sleep and do you have the stamina to get

00:31:14.880 through the next day after driving all night right and your kids are ready for vacation because they're

00:31:20.720 well rested and are you right so it's just going to be different for everybody whether that works

00:31:25.700 but it's a great strategy if you've got you know the stamina to do it all right let's do you

00:31:30.500 mentioned screens and your kids like what's your guys's take on uh keeping kids entertained on a

00:31:35.600 road trip wow my most important take is that it's not my business what anybody else does with screens

00:31:41.520 and their kids so i just want to so we'll share what we've done you know our struggle but i think

00:31:47.400 it's one of those areas that people get so super judgy about and it just drives me crazy because we

00:31:52.200 all have you know our own kids and they're so different and also i feel like it's unfair i wrote

00:31:58.660 about this in our book a little bit like we're the first generation of parent that had to navigate

00:32:04.040 this right like when we were young our parents there weren't screens to bring on vacation with

00:32:10.220 us so they didn't have to worry about it it wasn't an option now it's so much work to manage screen

00:32:15.740 time and there's going to be certain parents that just don't want to work more on vacation and manage

00:32:20.020 screen time so i understand that and i just want to give a high five to every parent out there that has

00:32:25.180 to spend so much of their life dealing with this issue because it can be exhausting but we're liberal

00:32:30.540 with it like in the car on the trip there right but when we're in a location you know when we're

00:32:35.720 at glacier national park for 12 days we really cut it down to to close to nothing you know but then

00:32:42.620 again like when we were at glacier we did a 12 mile round trip hike out to a glacier all our kids did

00:32:47.760 that hike it was a nine hour hike if they wanted to come home and watch a movie like that night like

00:32:52.600 we are totally cool with that's okay we don't want to do anything you earned it you know

00:32:56.040 i can say that i was really strict with screens when they were younger so now that they're older

00:33:03.420 they have their devices in the car but when they were little they didn't and i really wanted them

00:33:09.200 to learn how to stare out the window and i really wanted my kids to learn how to be bored and just

00:33:14.240 kind of like let their imaginations roam and i am glad i made that choice that i just wasn't we never

00:33:21.640 had a dvd player like you know a car with a with the dvd players in the back of the seats or whatever

00:33:26.740 and we never bought a car with that because i was just like i don't want that to be the default when

00:33:31.580 we get in a car i want kids to look out the window it was always really important to me that useful

00:33:36.340 boredom you know autobiographical planning that daydreaming you know so look we've definitely had

00:33:41.620 our struggles with that along the way um just like any other family there's no magical answer to it

00:33:46.740 we were camping just last weekend and the boys asked if they could watch a movie in the rv

00:33:50.380 saturday night i got totally annoyed at them i was like it's beautiful out it's our first real

00:33:54.980 trip of the season you know go outside be kids you're not watching a movie right now but then

00:33:59.360 other times it's like yeah it's cozy go in the rv and watch a movie and i think i'm i'm glad that we

00:34:04.900 were strict at the time because i think i put a schedule in the book too that we used to follow

00:34:10.720 where like i would do everything in units like okay we'd have snack time and then maybe we'd have some

00:34:14.760 game time and then maybe we'd have some audiobook our boys loved audiobooks for years and we'd listen to

00:34:20.180 audiobooks on the way to any destination a lot of the time i try to like link it to where we were

00:34:25.320 going for example i always remember listening to the i survived mount saint helens novel on our way

00:34:32.600 to mount saint helens right like things like that were really fun so uh not having screens forced us

00:34:38.300 to come up with things we like together right everybody had their own sirius xm channel that you

00:34:43.440 know would be like okay it's your turn which channel do you want and our boys would pick elvis or

00:34:48.140 you know the the beatles channel and they would get four songs on each channel so we did spend years

00:34:55.080 and years being super creative with our kids in that time and now you know if they're a little bit

00:35:00.680 older fine be on your phone while we're driving yeah our philosophy so my kids they're 10 and 7

00:35:07.200 our philosophy on road trips is you get two hours no screens one hour we screen

00:35:11.440 yeah and that's what we really did for years like we did those blocks of time and then okay now here's

00:35:18.120 my phone and you can watch a show and it worked well do you guys do like license plate games

00:35:23.160 pinch bug slug bug yeah well you did you have all these like hard games and these national park trivia

00:35:29.280 games these are very compact games that were actually in the rv in the cabinet right now right by

00:35:33.900 where i am three second rule is a really fun one for the car right because like you you give them a

00:35:39.040 topic and they have to name a certain amount of things and it's just anything with just cards

00:35:44.140 right is very fun for the car ride and they really enjoy those things too something i recommend is

00:35:50.740 keeping separate things that you only enjoy when you're in your rv or you're on a road trip because

00:35:56.180 they become special and they look forward to that we kept that national park trivia in the glove compartment

00:36:00.820 of the truck so the thing that they got no g pull that out that came out we played do you guys split up

00:36:05.980 driving on a road trip absolutely i tow the rv but if it's just a road trip we totally split it up but

00:36:12.180 when it's towing the rv i do i do the towing yeah i i used to and then we got jeremy wanted a certain

00:36:18.740 size rv and i tapped out of the towing at that point i just super it makes me really anxious and

00:36:24.740 stressed um i believe i can so i don't you know like i believe women can do everything right fine but

00:36:31.420 i'm not i'm also a horrible navigator so like when she was towing and i was in charge of navigation

00:36:37.540 it did not really go well so it just was a better matchup for me towing and you're bad at managing

00:36:43.460 like the snack stand yeah that the boys require and what do you all do to keep yourselves entertained

00:36:49.700 or do you just like to zone out and just watch the road no we love podcast we listen we're podcasters

00:36:56.560 and we love listening to podcasts so we devour podcasts on the road music yeah but i can't

00:37:02.440 listen to audiobooks when jeremy's driving because he says they put him to sleep i don't know why

00:37:07.420 they put me to sleep yeah i think you know that like i think there's a new podcast series out or

00:37:13.080 there's something where they've hired some companies hired like celebrities and you can do a road trip and

00:37:19.380 like you'll have like kevin costner like telling you about the history of where you're at like it's

00:37:24.280 like real times because i'm not uses gps and it can tell where you're at and you basically have

00:37:28.840 kevin costner telling you about the buffalo here have you heard about i don't know you're ringing

00:37:34.900 a bell because i think that somebody in my work it mentioned this to me but i haven't actually dug

00:37:40.060 in and check this out okay i'm gonna dig in and like find it we'll link to it in the show i remember

00:37:44.060 i thought that sounded kind of cool i'd want kevin costner telling me about dances with wolves or

00:37:48.680 something all right so speaking of planning your road trips um going back to this do you when you

00:37:55.640 plan a road trip you know you there's you you have things you want to do in advance like you want to

00:37:59.880 do the chuck wagon dinner in the middle of nowhere south dakota but do you also kind of set schedule

00:38:05.900 time to do stuff like off the beaten path like do you so you can like visit the thing or like the

00:38:12.880 world's largest rocking chair if it somehow shows up on your your road trip well south dakota is a

00:38:18.300 great example of doing that because in one sense you could look at the ride out to the badlands and

00:38:24.100 mount rushmore is being boring if you didn't know that there were all these bizarre roadside

00:38:27.600 attractions but the corn palace and then there was that outdoor sculpture garden i'm forgetting the

00:38:33.120 name of it it was so quirky and bizarre and weird and it's near mitchell south dakota and we did not plan

00:38:38.120 on stopping and these sculptures were just rising out of nowhere we were like oh we have to we had to

00:38:43.600 actually get off on a dirt road to get there and we were like beautiful are we getting lost here and

00:38:48.580 it was so much fun it was like a trip highlight you know so we absolutely really do like to build

00:38:53.600 in that stuff and again sometimes we are in a rush to get to vacation because we have kids in a limited

00:38:58.200 time and when we are older and retired we'll take even more time for that but i think that is a huge

00:39:03.640 part of the joy of our being and road tripping in general is to to allow yourself to just take that

00:39:09.140 left turn and find something you weren't planning on finding and i'm sure you guys have written

00:39:13.180 you've written guides about this but do you think the guides like road trip guides are useful to kind

00:39:17.140 of give you an itinerary so you don't think too much about it i love guides that offer you a framework

00:39:23.560 right for like suggestions and then you can curate it according to your own personal preferences i don't i

00:39:31.160 think people that know themselves have great traveling experiences and people that don't know themselves

00:39:38.200 end up unhappy right because what they did is they took a guide from maybe some like

00:39:43.040 like outside online cliff you know cliff climbing adventure and they were like i'm gonna do this

00:39:51.080 and they don't have it you know that's not their wheelhouse maybe or that's not really they're not

00:39:57.040 actually going to be happy staying at a glamping tent where they have to go to a bathhouse in the

00:40:02.820 middle of the night to use the bathroom like you have to know is this going to make me happy or

00:40:07.060 miserable well i used to all the time buy hiking guides and um you know it would say like oh it's

00:40:11.180 a moderate hike great for kids and we would go do this hike it was like horribly difficult and

00:40:15.180 eventually i had a baby on my back using those hiking books and and now we just ask a park ranger

00:40:21.460 well i also love um all trails all trails thank you i was like i kept i was about to say all stays

00:40:29.080 yeah i like all trails we've used that a lot when we've gone on trips

00:40:31.920 so you guys are your big proponents of staying at camping grounds instead of staying at a hotel or

00:40:38.700 motel when you're on a road trip what are the benefits of camping while on a road trip

00:40:43.060 it's it's less expensive you're definitely in nature more you know you're stepping out of your

00:40:48.460 tent or your cabin or your rv and you are outside right so it does force you to be outside a lot more

00:40:54.020 than a hotel and for us with little kids they step out of the rv and they can be kids they can run

00:40:59.040 around they can make some noise they can start throwing the football around in a hotel if they

00:41:03.540 step out into the hallway you know our kids do run around in the hallway but it's it's they're not

00:41:07.640 supposed to right i mean stepping outside is a big part of it getting out into nature is part of it

00:41:12.080 i think kids travel can be very challenging for kids and that's okay right like and they need to

00:41:18.600 decompress oftentimes at the end of a day of structured like tourism if that's what you're doing

00:41:24.840 right and even a hike yes they're being active on it but they're also being deliberately guided in a

00:41:31.120 certain direction in a certain activity and our boys have always needed that like free outdoor

00:41:38.440 decompression time at the end of a day of travel it's been such a blessing to us to discover that

00:41:43.700 way of you know staying that type of accommodation because they can ride their bikes they go to the

00:41:49.720 playground they go to the basketball hoop and it just just allows everybody to relax and chill out

00:41:56.020 even though you know we had a very active fun adventuring day and they are almost like little

00:42:02.540 communities each of these campgrounds a lot of people say it's almost like what the american downtown

00:42:06.760 was it's like your neighbors are friendly your kids can roam around a little bit we always feel very

00:42:12.320 safe at campgrounds so it gives them a sense of community at a campground that maybe our neighborhoods

00:42:17.720 aren't totally providing right now when you guys choose campgrounds are you looking for certain

00:42:22.980 amenities so we like we like both state parks and national parks with limited amenities and we love

00:42:29.400 the rv resorts and it's kind of part of our business is to see all of them so what we've loved to do over

00:42:35.220 the years is like we'll do a two-stop trip and we'll go to like the national park campground first

00:42:40.840 like we did like the platte river campground and sleeping bear dunes and there's really no amenities

00:42:45.140 there and there's no hookups it's more simple it's a more back to nature experience so we'll do

00:42:50.080 something like that for five days and then we'll go to like the off the hook rv resort and sort of

00:42:54.700 like reward the boys and like okay there's a pool here there's a playground there's food on site and

00:42:59.520 then we can dump our tanks there as well so we actually love doing both and often do both in the

00:43:04.700 same trip can you tell us about the world of private campgrounds because i think when most people

00:43:08.200 think of car camping they're thinking of state or national parks that's what i've done but in my

00:43:13.460 experience i think other people experience too and i think it's this is the case really bad right

00:43:16.940 now particularly the national parks is finding a camping spot can be impossible sometimes you

00:43:21.480 don't like schedule a year in advance what's with private campgrounds what are those like

00:43:26.360 so private campgrounds really are a great option for this year and you're a thousand percent right

00:43:31.840 that like the most popular national park campgrounds are booked solid like you're not getting a site

00:43:37.120 inside yosemite national park this summer unless you just get crazy crazy lucky so then the

00:43:42.560 private campgrounds are going to offer an alternative a lot of times there are great

00:43:46.560 private campgrounds outside of the national parks 15 minutes outside 30 minutes outside they're going

00:43:52.520 to cost more they're going to have more amenities particularly for our beers the sites are oftentimes

00:43:58.640 going to be smaller and less private because oftentimes they are more built for our beers so a lot

00:44:03.820 of times tent campers don't necessarily love those types of campgrounds but they do provide a really

00:44:09.260 great option like if you can't get into that national park you're dreaming about i would totally

00:44:13.720 tell people like try a koa campground like around great smoky mountains national park if you want to

00:44:19.200 be in the park right now it's going to be difficult to get a site but there's five or six koas surrounding

00:44:25.700 the camp you know around the national park and they are definitely going to have more availability you

00:44:30.980 know they're not necessarily as stunning or as beautiful and they are going to cost more but a great way to

00:44:36.140 go if you can't get that dream site inside a national park yeah i was looking up about uh koa

00:44:41.680 because i remember when i was a kid road tripping you know going down i-40 and you'd see like koa and

00:44:46.540 like they have like the family circus kids for i guess they were spokespeople are they still the

00:44:50.320 spokespeople for no but that but that relationship that was like for decades yeah that was they did

00:44:55.840 the um the koa catalog covers always had that on the cover yeah the family certain i was like i was

00:45:00.620 like i didn't know anything about that and so i looked up koa like what is this can't i was like i was

00:45:05.740 impressed they shed pictures like this actually looks really nice i always always look kind of

00:45:09.180 chintzy the way they advertised on billboards but i was i wasn't they had like showers and you know

00:45:14.360 they had like campfires it looked pretty nice well they guarantee certain things too so there's always

00:45:18.900 going to be laundry facilities there there's always a dog park at a koa so they are reliable and it's

00:45:25.940 more standardized and there's there's like 500 of them in the country and some are just like kind of

00:45:30.740 right off the interstate and nothing spectacular but then there are others that are incredibly

00:45:35.140 beautiful like in cape hatteras there's a koa right on the beach in cape hatteras you can be

00:45:40.320 camping right next to the ocean you know just walk over the dunes and you're right at the beach

00:45:44.760 so there's a wide variety of types of campgrounds in like the koa system so okay benefits pros of

00:45:51.160 private campgrounds you have some a lot of nice amenities but it's going to be probably what's like

00:45:55.580 what's the going rate for like a night at a koa probably 60 to 100 depending on the country you're

00:46:02.220 in yeah i mean you definitely and if you're tent camping maybe you could get something for 40 or 50

00:46:07.020 if you want the rv site with water electric and sewer you're definitely looking 60 and up

00:46:11.540 campground prices are kind of shocking people at private campgrounds because a lot of private

00:46:17.140 campgrounds have moved to the what they call dynamic pricing which is really based on supply and

00:46:21.840 demand and more like hotels have always hotels and because i mean there has been this massive

00:46:26.660 influx of millions of new campers they just are able to to charge more we all ever stayed in a

00:46:32.880 like a motel while on a road trip like a roadside like an old where we're going to yellowstone this

00:46:37.880 summer and uh we're staying at all campgrounds we're flying in and then we're staying at all

00:46:42.040 campgrounds and then the last two nights we're in a hotel in jackson hole yeah because we just wanted

00:46:47.320 to like have a pool but we wanted to be right downtown like we wanted to be able to kind of roll out of

00:46:51.440 bed and walk around so we we do we tend to prefer airbnbs i feel like when we travel without our

00:46:58.820 camper just because we are so used to having our own kitchen and bathroom and it just works better

00:47:04.540 for us but our boys are such little travelers and they love a hotel experience they just love

00:47:12.280 the discovery they love going to a place and saying what's our accommodation they also love leaving

00:47:17.720 their airpods at the hotel room and a weird thing i discovered if you leave your airpods in the rv no

00:47:22.980 problem you know if you leave them in a hotel room they're gone so just all these little differences

00:47:26.840 that jump out at me when we stay in a hotel and like i always come back to wanting to be in the rv

00:47:31.760 and i'm out of everyone in the family i'm probably the most dedicated to it oh yeah max told me the other

00:47:37.140 day he said mom i kind of miss airports isn't that weird he just said that to me he goes you know just

00:47:44.040 getting there and going and getting a jamba juice and i was i just realized to him you know it's a

00:47:50.840 whole story right like every type of travel has its whole thing that goes along with it and those are

00:47:58.060 just like different types of memories that they're making and i just so i love it all i really do

00:48:02.580 and one last question i mean so how can what would be your recommendation for someone who wants to start

00:48:07.200 road tripping like how to get started like should they just start with like a weekend road trip

00:48:11.320 should they go like plan a big one no don't be over ambitious that's my biggest recommendation

00:48:17.560 right is you know first of all have a great destination for sure i think too many people

00:48:22.640 i always say like people like oh well how do you hike with kids well first of all don't take them to

00:48:26.920 a path in the woods and call it a hike right of course they're going to be bored it's a walk in the

00:48:31.620 woods you know and their kids like take them to an amazing waterfall or something that really sparks

00:48:37.780 their curiosity and the same thing goes with a road trip like have a destination that's exciting

00:48:43.420 and fun and it's a good payoff and yeah and you got to take if you're doing it with kids you do have

00:48:48.700 to consider their interests and hobbies too like my next thing which all my boys don't know about yet

00:48:53.120 i'm going to surprise them with this is i'm going to do a boys trip to boston and do a red sox game

00:48:57.820 because we're red sox fans but because we want to see fenway so you know you have to consider what

00:49:03.380 everybody likes on the trip well hey stephanie jeremy where can people go to learn more about

00:49:07.380 your work so it's the rv atlas everywhere it's the rv atlas podcast it's the rv atlas.com it's

00:49:13.360 the rv atlas on instagram and then the two most recent books are where should we camp next which

00:49:17.440 is a 50 state guide to the best campgrounds in the country and as you mentioned before

00:49:21.520 see you at the campground and you can get those at bookstores anywhere fantastic well stephanie

00:49:25.520 jeremy thanks for your time it's been a pleasure oh thanks so much for having us i really appreciate it

00:49:29.420 thank you brad my guests they were jeremy and stephanie puglisi they're the author of several

00:49:34.080 books on road tripping and camping latest is see you at the campground it's available on amazon.com

00:49:38.960 and bookstores everywhere you can find out more information about their work at their website

00:49:42.080 the rv atlas.com we can also check out their podcast there also check out our show notes at

00:49:46.420 aom.is road trip we find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:49:50.540 well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast check out our website at art of manliness.com

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00:50:47.220 you

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

How to Plan the Ultimate Road Trip

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