The Art of Manliness - How to Shift Out of the Midlife Malaise

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett, we're taking a break today

00:00:01.440 from new episodes, but we're rebroadcasting

00:00:03.200 episode number 776, how to shift out of the midlife

00:00:06.800 malaise.

00:00:07.660 Hope you enjoy it, we'll be back on Wednesday

00:00:09.280 with a brand new episode.

00:00:18.220 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:00:20.000 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:21.740 Now, when you think about someone having a midlife

00:00:23.480 crisis, you probably think of a man getting divorced,

00:00:26.080 stepping out with a younger woman, and buying a sports car.

00:00:28.420 But my guest today says the often jokey, mockable trope

00:00:31.340 of the midlife crisis we have in our popular culture

00:00:33.640 discounts the fact that the sense of dissatisfaction

00:00:36.260 people can feel in their middle years is quite real,

00:00:39.300 and that the questions it raises are profound,

00:00:41.760 philosophical, and worth earnestly grappling with.

00:00:44.400 His name is Kieran Setia, he's a professor of philosophy

00:00:46.520 and the author of Midlife, A Philosophical Guide.

00:00:49.160 Kieran and I first discussed what researchers have uncovered

00:00:51.400 about whether the midlife crisis really exists,

00:00:53.560 how it might be better described as a kind of midlife

00:00:55.640 malaise, and how Kieran's own sense of life dissatisfaction

00:00:58.520 began when he was only in his mid-30s.

00:01:00.520 We then explore the philosophical reframing

00:01:02.460 that can help in dealing with the existential issues

00:01:04.600 that the journey into midlife often raises,

00:01:06.680 including feeling like you've missed out

00:01:08.040 on certain possibilities, and feeling regret

00:01:09.940 over your mistakes and misfortunes.

00:01:11.560 We also talk about how to shift out of one of the primary

00:01:13.720 causes of the midlife malaise, the sense that your life

00:01:16.280 is merely about putting out fires and checking off boxes.

00:01:19.160 After the show's over, check out our show notes

00:01:20.580 at aom.is slash midlife.

00:01:32.640 All right, Kieran Setia, welcome to the show.

00:01:35.560 Thanks for having me.

00:01:36.500 So you are a professor of philosophy at MIT.

00:01:38.880 You got a book out called Midlife, A Philosophy,

00:01:41.460 and you take a look at the problems that a lot of people face

00:01:44.620 when they hit those middle years of their life,

00:01:46.260 and you explore whether philosophy has any guidance

00:01:49.120 for that time period in their life.

00:01:51.020 And you start off the book doing like a cultural history

00:01:53.500 of this idea of the midlife crisis.

00:01:56.080 Looking at the historical record,

00:01:57.720 what's the earliest reference we have

00:01:59.600 to the midlife crisis?

00:02:01.880 Well, the midlife crisis is really unusual

00:02:04.200 among sort of cultural tropes

00:02:06.420 in that there is a kind of definite history.

00:02:08.620 Like you can actually date the origin of the phrase

00:02:11.000 to this 1965 essay by a Canadian psychoanalyst

00:02:14.960 called Elliot Jacques called Death and the Midlife Crisis.

00:02:17.820 And the idea of the midlife crisis,

00:02:20.280 sort of discussion of midlife malaise under that heading

00:02:23.940 sort of really picks up in the 1970s.

00:02:27.620 So in terms of the actual, the phrase itself,

00:02:30.460 yeah, 1965 was sort of the birth.

00:02:33.320 But even before that,

00:02:34.440 was there sort of like a proto concept

00:02:36.160 of a midlife crisis in philosophy or cultural history?

00:02:39.660 So it's very hard to say exactly

00:02:43.100 when the sort of phenomenon originates.

00:02:44.980 So there's two ways to approach it.

00:02:46.280 One is you can look at points in sort of earlier in history

00:02:49.920 where people experience midlife difficulties.

00:02:51.840 And then there's all kinds of examples.

00:02:53.680 So people sometimes point to Dante feeling lost in middle age

00:02:58.140 in this sort of dark wood and trying to find himself

00:03:00.260 and say, well, maybe that's a midlife crisis.

00:03:02.160 People have even talked about Odysseus

00:03:04.620 and the Odyssey sort of traveling

00:03:05.980 and eventually finding his way home as a midlife crisis.

00:03:08.380 So the idea that sort of people have to sometimes find themselves again

00:03:13.140 in midlife has a very long history.

00:03:15.520 As a kind of cultural phenomenon,

00:03:17.500 most likely that the kind of plausible history

00:03:19.760 has to do with the sort of way in which work

00:03:22.820 comes to be associated with efficiency,

00:03:25.400 sort of new efficiency focus of the early 20th century.

00:03:28.720 And the idea that in order to be

00:03:30.660 sort of a valuable member of the workforce,

00:03:32.740 you have to be more productive

00:03:34.240 and you have to compete with the sort of young people

00:03:36.860 entering the workforce.

00:03:37.860 And as that gets more intense,

00:03:39.360 the anxiety that by midlife you're somehow past it

00:03:42.020 becomes more culturally pervasive.

00:03:44.740 So there's sort of two different ways to look at

00:03:46.360 the kind of prehistory of the midlife crisis.

00:03:49.160 And as you point out in the book,

00:03:50.360 in 1965, we see the phrase midlife crisis in the literature.

00:03:55.120 And after that, it seemed like a lot of psychologists

00:03:57.120 started studying this phenomenon.

00:03:59.020 They're like, well, what's going on here?

00:04:00.180 I'm seeing patients or clients that

00:04:02.380 talking about malaise when they're hit 40.

00:04:05.140 Were there any actual concrete studies done

00:04:08.580 in the 20th century about, yeah,

00:04:10.200 midlife crisis is a thing?

00:04:12.880 So the two big studies, sort of academic studies,

00:04:15.780 are by this guy Daniel Levinson at Yale.

00:04:17.900 He published a book called Seasons of a Man's Life.

00:04:20.540 And Roger Gould at UCLA published a book

00:04:22.980 called Transformations.

00:04:23.800 And they were sort of social scientists

00:04:25.440 studying the midlife crisis.

00:04:27.640 Well, I mean, the history is sort of complicated

00:04:29.340 because while they were studying it,

00:04:31.620 the journalist, Gail Sheehy,

00:04:32.920 he got very interested in the idea of midlife

00:04:35.840 as a time of transition,

00:04:37.160 partly because of essays that they had published about it

00:04:40.200 before their books came out.

00:04:41.520 And so really the first sort of big publication,

00:04:43.780 the book that sold sort of millions of copies

00:04:45.800 was Gail Sheehy's book, Passages,

00:04:48.020 which came out in 1976.

00:04:50.720 And that book is, in many ways,

00:04:53.560 sort of cements some of the stereotypes

00:04:55.520 of the midlife crisis.

00:04:56.720 She has these sort of kind of archetypal descriptions

00:04:59.600 of what your 20s are like,

00:05:01.020 and what your 30s are like,

00:05:01.940 and what your 40s are like for men and for women.

00:05:04.220 And she sort of characterizes

00:05:05.820 kind of middle age as a time of particular crisis

00:05:08.680 and reinvention or the need to reinvent oneself

00:05:11.040 for men and for women.

00:05:12.800 And I think that was the sort of origin

00:05:15.420 in terms of pop culture

00:05:16.540 of the idea of the midlife crisis

00:05:18.140 that then sort of spread

00:05:19.360 over the sort of last decades of the 20th century.

00:05:22.640 Okay, so from the 70s on,

00:05:24.540 the idea of a midlife crisis

00:05:25.500 took hold of the popular imaginations.

00:05:27.220 You see it pop up in TV shows, movies, et cetera.

00:05:29.800 But then in like the late 90s, early 2000s,

00:05:33.240 you started seeing these studies

00:05:34.800 in the popular press saying,

00:05:35.940 well, actually the midlife crisis,

00:05:37.800 that's actually not a thing.

00:05:39.540 Can you tell us about those studies?

00:05:41.020 Yeah, so around, I think it was 1989,

00:05:43.820 the MacArthur Foundation sponsored

00:05:45.940 this sort of vast interdisciplinary research network

00:05:49.940 of medical sociologists and psychologists

00:05:53.020 and social scientists directed by Orville Gilbert Brim.

00:05:56.960 And the idea was that they were going to do

00:05:58.660 a very large scale empirical study,

00:06:01.900 much bigger than the kind of studies

00:06:03.100 that had been done by Levinson and Gould,

00:06:05.020 of what was happening to people

00:06:06.780 sort of through the aging process.

00:06:09.120 I think there were 7,000 people that they surveyed

00:06:12.160 in the studies that were conducted

00:06:14.100 in sort of 1995, mid 90s.

00:06:16.980 And the results of those studies

00:06:19.380 presented a picture

00:06:20.880 that really didn't fit the crisis model.

00:06:23.180 So the general trend in terms of people's sense

00:06:26.620 of happiness and self-mastery and control,

00:06:29.320 according to those studies, was upward.

00:06:31.300 So it got better and more stable in middle age.

00:06:34.880 And then in many cases, even better and more stable

00:06:37.960 as we went from middle age into older age.

00:06:40.340 And when they tried to figure out

00:06:42.700 whether there were really clear signs of a crisis,

00:06:46.160 the data was very, very mixed.

00:06:47.620 So you would find, you know,

00:06:49.240 if you look at sort of over 40s in those studies,

00:06:51.560 maybe a quarter of them will say,

00:06:54.560 well, yeah, I had some kind of crisis.

00:06:56.980 But then you look at the more fine-grained,

00:06:58.820 qualitative data.

00:06:59.900 And what happened was they got divorced

00:07:01.660 or they switched jobs or a parent died.

00:07:04.300 So sort of like it happens at that point.

00:07:06.860 And if you're going to call things

00:07:08.520 that are going on in your life a crisis,

00:07:10.100 you'll be able to point to something

00:07:11.320 and you might call it a midlife crisis.

00:07:13.500 But there didn't seem to be anything

00:07:14.880 corresponding to the stereotype

00:07:16.340 of sort of internal malaise

00:07:18.440 and systemic reflection on the mistaken choices

00:07:22.120 of one's life and regret and missed opportunities.

00:07:24.960 It just seemed like, yeah, life can be hard

00:07:26.680 and some of the difficult things we face

00:07:28.440 really hit us hard around midlife.

00:07:31.400 And so, yeah, by around 2000,

00:07:33.300 a lot of psychologists would sort of talk about

00:07:35.860 the midlife crisis as something that had been debunked.

00:07:38.780 You know, it's like the myth of the midlife crisis.

00:07:40.680 It was a kind of popular idea

00:07:43.160 that had been fostered and made prevalent

00:07:46.660 in popular conversation by journalists

00:07:49.120 and by cultural representations.

00:07:51.140 But it didn't, according to the kind of studies

00:07:53.340 around the 90s and 2000,

00:07:56.000 it didn't really have a lot of empirical support.

00:07:59.780 So what's the state of the midlife crisis today?

00:08:01.620 Has it just been debunked?

00:08:02.800 Or they're saying, well, maybe it could be a thing.

00:08:05.400 Well, so there's a kind of big transition that happens

00:08:07.920 that I think is very interesting

00:08:08.860 in which sort of around the early 2000s,

00:08:13.640 economists sort of quite generally

00:08:15.480 got interested in welfare economics

00:08:18.200 and sort of systemic,

00:08:19.960 often sort of statistically based studies

00:08:22.720 of people's wellbeing and life satisfaction.

00:08:26.500 And so what happened was that two economists in particular,

00:08:30.120 David Blanchflower and Andrew Oswald,

00:08:32.320 did this gigantic study of data

00:08:35.360 from 70 plus countries of men and women

00:08:38.920 in which they tracked basically people's answers

00:08:42.440 to the question,

00:08:43.680 how satisfied are you with your life overall

00:08:46.060 over the sort of life cycle across age?

00:08:49.620 And they did various kinds of regression studies

00:08:52.100 to sort of factor out

00:08:53.260 whether this was just a cohort effect,

00:08:55.380 like it just was that like the 60s was a tough time

00:08:57.840 or whether parenthood was responsible.

00:09:00.000 And what they found was that even if you abstract

00:09:01.760 from those kinds of factors,

00:09:03.940 you find that sort of around the world

00:09:06.280 for men and for women,

00:09:07.740 life satisfaction seemed to take the form

00:09:10.380 of a gently curving U-shape.

00:09:12.880 And the nadir, the sort of rock bottom

00:09:15.000 is on average mid-40s.

00:09:18.380 And it's sort of a gentle curve.

00:09:20.660 So it's sort of high in your 20s,

00:09:22.780 bottoms out in your 40s,

00:09:24.080 and then it rises again later.

00:09:26.280 And although it's gentle,

00:09:28.200 the gap is significant.

00:09:29.780 So the gap between sort of youth and middle age

00:09:34.260 in life satisfaction is roughly the gap

00:09:37.260 that you would associate with someone who's already

00:09:40.980 in middle age getting a divorce or losing their job.

00:09:43.500 So it's as if sort of everyone experiences

00:09:45.740 the equivalent of divorce or losing their job,

00:09:48.620 you know, just because of aging,

00:09:50.380 regardless of what else is going on in their life

00:09:51.800 by the time they reach middle age.

00:09:53.560 But then they sort of come out of that.

00:09:54.780 And so what happened was that,

00:09:57.440 well, it doesn't look like a story of pervasive crisis.

00:10:00.780 It's not like inevitably everyone goes

00:10:03.160 through a tremendous crisis in midlife

00:10:05.240 and has to reinvent themselves.

00:10:07.140 But there is a kind of general phenomenon

00:10:10.240 of midlife malaise,

00:10:12.520 of sort of a special difficulty with life

00:10:15.360 and dissatisfaction with life around middle age.

00:10:18.500 And so I think nowadays when people talk about

00:10:20.240 the midlife crisis,

00:10:21.040 even the meaning of the phrase,

00:10:22.200 I think has shifted a bit.

00:10:23.180 So when people talk about the reality

00:10:24.740 of the midlife crisis,

00:10:26.260 often what they're talking about

00:10:27.640 is not the idea that everyone has a kind of

00:10:30.320 quit my job, leave my partner,

00:10:32.840 spend everything on a fast car.

00:10:35.760 It's the phenomenon of midlife being

00:10:38.940 just an especially challenging time

00:10:41.180 for people to find satisfaction in their lives.

00:10:45.380 So you are in midlife.

00:10:47.080 Did you feel anything as you approached midlife?

00:10:49.640 You're like, something's going on here.

00:10:51.200 Like I'm not, something's off.

00:10:53.800 Absolutely.

00:10:54.400 I mean, that was how I got interested in the topic.

00:10:56.020 It was, I was a, I was an early adopter

00:10:58.220 in that I, it was around sort of 35 or so.

00:11:01.260 I really started to feel like

00:11:03.180 I wasn't sure what I was doing with my life.

00:11:06.340 And I think, you know, as an academic,

00:11:07.820 I think that career structure

00:11:09.460 is especially well set up

00:11:11.340 to generate a midlife crisis.

00:11:12.640 So you, you basically have your head down

00:11:14.880 working incredibly hard

00:11:16.880 to get a PhD,

00:11:19.560 get a job, get tenure.

00:11:20.800 You don't have time to think,

00:11:22.280 what am I doing?

00:11:23.520 What do I care about in life?

00:11:24.720 You don't have time for much else.

00:11:26.520 And then if you get tenure,

00:11:28.060 you sort of suddenly have this moment

00:11:29.940 in which you can breathe and reflect,

00:11:31.820 having not really had the opportunity

00:11:33.100 to do that for 15 years.

00:11:35.980 And at that point,

00:11:37.800 the questions suddenly rush in

00:11:39.020 and you realize,

00:11:40.060 yeah, what am I doing?

00:11:41.320 And so for me,

00:11:42.080 part of what was puzzling about it

00:11:43.640 was that it wasn't that I thought,

00:11:45.640 I want to quit academia.

00:11:46.700 What's the point of this?

00:11:47.480 I thought, yeah,

00:11:49.040 teaching is a really important thing to do.

00:11:50.940 And I still love philosophy

00:11:52.160 and I still want to keep working on philosophy.

00:11:54.760 But even so,

00:11:56.700 the sort of picture of my future was,

00:11:59.080 well, I guess I'll finish an article.

00:12:00.980 I might get it published.

00:12:02.260 Then I'll write another article.

00:12:03.320 I'll teach these students.

00:12:04.480 They'll graduate.

00:12:05.420 I'll teach some more students.

00:12:06.880 And there's a sense that,

00:12:07.740 well, that's all worth doing,

00:12:08.940 but what does it all add up to?

00:12:10.320 There was a feeling of hollowness.

00:12:11.900 And that really hit me hard.

00:12:13.680 Yeah, sort of mid thirties.

00:12:14.860 Yeah, I was an early adopter of the phrase

00:12:17.220 in that I was very happy to describe myself

00:12:19.300 as having a midlife crisis,

00:12:20.600 in part because there's a certain,

00:12:21.940 it's kind of jokey phrase.

00:12:23.720 And that was a way to add a little bit of irony

00:12:25.680 to my crisis

00:12:27.580 and to talk about it with friends

00:12:29.220 in a way that was sort of unthreatening

00:12:31.940 and didn't make it seem like

00:12:34.660 a kind of deep, dark, difficult thing.

00:12:37.260 And yeah, it was out of that experience

00:12:39.420 that I really got interested in the topic.

00:12:43.000 So, you know, Levinson in his book,

00:12:44.500 he kind of described midlife

00:12:46.400 as sort of a second adolescence

00:12:48.640 where you kind of,

00:12:49.920 you once again feel like you're trying to,

00:12:52.060 you're like evaluating yourself.

00:12:53.500 You're trying to figure out

00:12:54.180 what your place in the world.

00:12:56.000 And it sounds like that's kind of

00:12:57.460 what you were going through.

00:12:58.280 Like you had an idea of your place,

00:13:00.720 but you're trying to figure out like what it meant.

00:13:03.100 No, that's exactly right.

00:13:04.180 Yeah.

00:13:04.420 I mean, so, I mean,

00:13:05.280 people do now talk about the quarter life crisis

00:13:07.700 and in a way the kind of crisis

00:13:09.560 of the sort of limiting of options

00:13:12.000 and the ways in which decisions constrain your life

00:13:14.860 and that you're going to inevitably miss out on things

00:13:17.580 and face regret and, you know,

00:13:19.840 the sort of drive to get things done

00:13:22.040 in the sense of that something is missing.

00:13:24.800 Those are experiences that I think people can have

00:13:27.080 that come from sort of the structure of human life

00:13:29.540 and the irreversibility of time

00:13:30.660 that you could have at any point.

00:13:31.840 So I think people sometimes do have

00:13:33.060 that kind of angsty crisis

00:13:34.980 when they're graduating.

00:13:36.720 And then if they're like me,

00:13:38.340 they figure out a plan

00:13:39.400 and the plan lasts about 15 to 20 years.

00:13:41.740 And then they come out of that

00:13:42.980 and suddenly those questions,

00:13:45.340 there's room to ask those questions again.

00:13:47.080 And so there is a way in which

00:13:48.100 it has a kind of open-ended existential dimension

00:13:52.660 that sort of adolescent reflection

00:13:55.540 on who am I and what am I going to do can have.

00:13:57.780 I mean, that's one way in which I think

00:13:59.440 the sort of funny trope of the midlife crisis,

00:14:03.120 while fair,

00:14:03.920 you wouldn't want it to distract us from the fact

00:14:06.300 that the kinds of questions people are asking

00:14:08.620 in this moment of midlife, malaise, uncertainty

00:14:12.440 are really deep, important, serious questions.

00:14:15.900 Like what really matters in my life?

00:14:17.680 How should I spend the limited amount of time that I have?

00:14:20.280 How should I deal with the fact

00:14:21.680 that there are mistakes in my past

00:14:24.160 and there are things I haven't done

00:14:25.440 or that I have done

00:14:26.220 that I cannot change now

00:14:27.960 and I have to live with that?

00:14:29.160 And those are serious, hard questions

00:14:31.960 about how to live that come out

00:14:34.280 of this sort of midlife experience.

00:14:36.740 Those are philosophical questions.

00:14:38.740 No, exactly, exactly.

00:14:39.820 And so part of what was puzzling to me

00:14:41.200 was the sense that here I was,

00:14:43.960 I was a philosopher.

00:14:45.260 I work in ethics, moral philosophy.

00:14:47.700 Like what I teach is the history

00:14:49.940 and sort of current reflection

00:14:51.100 on questions about how to live.

00:14:53.480 Some of that is about moral obligations.

00:14:55.180 Some of it is about what makes your own life good,

00:14:57.140 how to think about making the best of your life.

00:15:00.580 And then here I was,

00:15:02.640 doing something that seemed worthwhile,

00:15:05.320 things that I still thought were valuable,

00:15:07.500 and yet feeling like there was something deeply wrong

00:15:10.480 and empty and hollow in what I was doing.

00:15:12.860 And it took a while for me

00:15:14.260 to sort of put the two together, oddly,

00:15:16.280 to say, hold on, the question,

00:15:19.080 how is it possible around midlife

00:15:21.160 to be doing things that seem worthwhile

00:15:23.260 and yet to think, yeah, my life's kind of empty.

00:15:26.440 I'm not sure I'm getting anything out of this.

00:15:28.720 How is it possible to do that?

00:15:30.260 Is a philosophical question.

00:15:31.820 And it was the point at which I thought,

00:15:33.820 yeah, this is philosophically puzzling.

00:15:36.100 Maybe what I should do is try and approach it

00:15:38.380 as a philosopher.

00:15:40.140 That sort of gave me something to do,

00:15:42.080 but it also gave me a kind of traction

00:15:43.500 on the problem that was really helpful.

00:15:46.040 So in your book, Midlife,

00:15:47.000 you take a look at different ways

00:15:50.520 people can experience sort of that malaise of midlife,

00:15:53.700 sort of the different problems

00:15:54.820 or philosophical problems.

00:15:56.040 And the first one you explore is

00:15:58.320 the person who they achieve

00:16:01.220 all the big goals and milestones

00:16:03.300 they set out as a young person, right?

00:16:05.040 Go to college, get the degree,

00:16:06.840 get a job for you,

00:16:08.360 maybe get tenure,

00:16:09.400 start a family, get a house.

00:16:11.260 You do all that stuff

00:16:12.400 by the time you're 35, 40,

00:16:15.100 but you still feel let down.

00:16:16.980 It's a big let down.

00:16:17.820 You're like, is that all there is?

00:16:19.380 Is that it?

00:16:20.320 And so to help you figure out

00:16:21.980 what to do with this problem,

00:16:22.900 sounds like this is the problem you were having.

00:16:24.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:25.820 You turn to philosopher John Stuart Mill.

00:16:28.640 So let's start off really briefly,

00:16:30.520 like what's his background?

00:16:31.460 What sort of philosophy did he do?

00:16:32.880 And then let's talk about

00:16:33.580 what he can teach us about

00:16:34.660 overcoming that problem.

00:16:36.740 Sure, yeah.

00:16:37.280 I mean, one thing you're picking up on

00:16:38.680 is that I think there are many midlife crises.

00:16:40.500 I don't think there's just one thing.

00:16:41.680 There's a kind of whole array of problems

00:16:43.200 that people face.

00:16:44.080 And one of them is the one that I think Mill had

00:16:47.140 at an alarmingly early age.

00:16:48.840 He's a very interesting guy.

00:16:49.880 He was the son of another philosopher

00:16:52.620 who was born at the start of the 19th century.

00:16:56.220 And his father was an acolyte of Jeremy Bentham,

00:16:58.540 who was a utilitarian.

00:16:59.820 So the idea was the utilitarians thought,

00:17:02.080 forget tradition.

00:17:03.120 What we should do is change society now

00:17:04.860 to make people happy.

00:17:07.420 And John Stuart Mill's father thought,

00:17:09.800 okay, that seems like a great plan.

00:17:11.440 I will bring my son up from birth

00:17:14.580 to be an instrument of that goal.

00:17:17.420 So I'll bring my son up to be someone 1.00

00:17:19.000 who makes the world a better place

00:17:20.720 and changes the world so that there's less suffering

00:17:23.480 and people can be happy.

00:17:24.840 And so he put John Stuart Mill

00:17:26.420 through this insane hothouse education.

00:17:28.920 So when he was three, he was taught Greek.

00:17:31.800 He was reading Plato in the original Greek

00:17:33.720 by the time he was seven.

00:17:34.760 He learned Latin at eight.

00:17:35.920 He was reading Newton's Principia Mathematica

00:17:38.400 by the time he was 11.

00:17:39.520 In his teenage years, he was doing logic,

00:17:42.160 political economy, psychology, law.

00:17:43.960 Then he did philosophy.

00:17:44.960 And then at around the age of 20,

00:17:48.220 John Stuart Mill had a nervous breakdown.

00:17:50.900 And the nervous breakdown came from him thinking,

00:17:53.400 okay, look, I've got this project in life.

00:17:55.960 It's my one project in life is to reduce human suffering.

00:18:00.160 That's what I've got to do.

00:18:01.400 That's what I've been brought up to do.

00:18:02.840 And he thought, well, he hadn't yet been successful,

00:18:05.300 but he sort of looked ahead and thought,

00:18:07.120 suppose I'm successful.

00:18:08.300 Suppose that happens.

00:18:10.740 What then?

00:18:11.860 What am I going to do?

00:18:12.700 What would make life meaningful?

00:18:15.840 And I think that crisis is, yeah,

00:18:18.540 philosophically interesting.

00:18:19.600 And it's analogous to a kind of crisis

00:18:21.560 people can go through in midlife.

00:18:27.200 No, he, yeah, you quote him.

00:18:28.840 He says, suppose that all your objects in life

00:18:31.160 were realized, that all the changes in institutions

00:18:33.620 and opinions which you are looking forward to

00:18:35.460 could be completely affected at this very instant.

00:18:38.340 Would this be a great joy and happiness to you?

00:18:40.420 And an irresponsible self-conscious

00:18:42.860 distinctly answered, no.

00:18:44.480 Yeah, right.

00:18:45.320 He just realized, even if I got everything out,

00:18:46.460 I'd still be miserable.

00:18:47.820 Yeah, and so the thing that I think is going on,

00:18:50.400 the kind of diagnosis of this,

00:18:51.640 that I think makes sense of Mill

00:18:53.400 and also connects with the midlife crisis is

00:18:55.720 what was distinctive about what Mill was doing

00:18:58.520 was it was worthwhile, reduce human suffering.

00:19:01.960 That matters.

00:19:02.740 And it's not just a means to another end.

00:19:04.240 I mean, it matters in itself.

00:19:05.260 If you reduce someone's suffering

00:19:06.520 and nothing else happens because of that,

00:19:08.480 at least you reduce someone's suffering.

00:19:10.300 So that's a good thing to do.

00:19:12.160 But it is, as I put it in the book, ameliorative.

00:19:15.620 So it's a kind of activity that's valuable

00:19:18.000 because it solves a problem or answers a need

00:19:21.380 that really we'd rather not have to face.

00:19:24.080 And if all you can think of in life that's worth doing,

00:19:27.620 or if most of what matters in your life,

00:19:29.500 most of what you're doing that's worthwhile,

00:19:31.260 is ameliorative,

00:19:32.240 all you're really doing is taking away bad things.

00:19:35.100 You're not making life positively good.

00:19:38.040 And if the best we could do

00:19:39.200 was sort of take away all the bad things in life,

00:19:41.520 it will be sort of zero.

00:19:43.920 But why would life be worth living at all?

00:19:47.280 And while I think few of us go through something

00:19:49.680 quite as radical and extreme as Mill,

00:19:53.260 I do think there's this widespread phenomenon

00:19:55.980 of people in midlife,

00:19:57.760 sort of the sandwich generation phenomenon,

00:19:59.340 where the pressure of things you do in life

00:20:02.560 that really matter

00:20:03.420 involves the kind of preponderance,

00:20:06.300 sort of overwhelming array of things

00:20:08.280 that need to be done.

00:20:09.520 So there's work,

00:20:11.420 stuff that has to get done for work.

00:20:13.400 There's parenting,

00:20:14.560 stuff you need to do

00:20:15.560 because your kids are placing demands on you

00:20:17.820 and you need to take care of them.

00:20:19.180 And then you've got often aging parents

00:20:21.040 and the kind of need to take care of them.

00:20:23.320 And most of what you're doing in life

00:20:25.680 is ameliorative.

00:20:26.800 Most of it is just,

00:20:28.340 well, let's prevent bad things from happening.

00:20:30.820 Let's stop things from falling apart.

00:20:33.280 And there isn't enough room in your life.

00:20:36.560 There isn't enough space in your life

00:20:37.740 or you haven't found enough in your life

00:20:39.520 that is, as I call it in the book again,

00:20:42.800 sort of existentially valuable.

00:20:44.580 And existentially valuable things

00:20:45.740 are things that aren't just amelioratively valuable.

00:20:48.000 They're things that are good,

00:20:49.620 but don't solve a problem.

00:20:51.080 They're the kind of things

00:20:51.640 that make life positively good

00:20:53.020 and make life sort of worth living at all.

00:20:55.080 And those are the things

00:20:56.560 that often it's very hard

00:20:58.260 to find space and time for in midlife.

00:21:01.340 So even if your situation

00:21:02.420 is not as radical as Mill's,

00:21:04.680 you can experience a version of the,

00:21:07.200 is that all there is experience that he had.

00:21:11.200 No, I think it's a great thought experiment

00:21:12.400 because I think everyone listening to this

00:21:14.760 has experienced that

00:21:15.600 if they're a parent and they're middle-aged,

00:21:17.540 like it just seems like

00:21:18.360 only thing you're doing is putting out fires.

00:21:20.320 And then you always tell yourself,

00:21:21.520 man, if I can just get ahead,

00:21:23.420 life will be awesome.

00:21:24.280 And Mill made me think,

00:21:26.120 maybe not.

00:21:27.000 Maybe I'd just be just as miserable right now

00:21:28.740 because I don't have anything positive to turn to.

00:21:32.400 Right.

00:21:32.640 What would I do is the question.

00:21:34.340 And often there's,

00:21:36.440 you know, understandably,

00:21:37.480 there's not much point thinking,

00:21:39.700 what would I do

00:21:40.700 if I had a whole lot more time than I have

00:21:43.000 when you don't have that time

00:21:44.280 and it would just frustrate you to think about it.

00:21:45.720 But if you don't sort of have a vision for that,

00:21:48.260 you're sort of setting yourself up

00:21:49.660 for a kind of crisis

00:21:50.860 and you're also sort of acquiescing,

00:21:54.040 you're sort of allowing yourself

00:21:55.240 to live a version of your life

00:21:56.940 in which all you are

00:21:58.340 is a kind of problem solver.

00:21:59.520 You're like a double negative.

00:22:00.780 You're just,

00:22:01.600 well, I'll get rid of the bad stuff.

00:22:03.000 And that is not a way

00:22:04.160 to live a life

00:22:05.500 that's truly meaningful

00:22:07.140 or truly rewarding.

00:22:08.420 We're going to take a quick break

00:22:09.380 for your words from our sponsors.

00:22:10.440 And now back to the show.

00:22:14.720 So how did Mill get out of his funk?

00:22:16.160 So he realized,

00:22:17.220 okay, I'm doing all this stuff,

00:22:18.340 it's good,

00:22:18.880 but it's not going to give me satisfaction

00:22:20.860 if I achieve it.

00:22:22.520 So what did he do to get out of his funk?

00:22:25.080 Well, so the big thing for Mill

00:22:26.120 was reading Wordsworth's poetry.

00:22:28.440 So he read romantic poetry,

00:22:30.980 poetry about nature,

00:22:32.600 and it gave him, he said,

00:22:34.540 this sort of vision of things

00:22:36.900 that were meaningful and valuable

00:22:38.700 that didn't have anything to do

00:22:40.260 with struggle or imperfection.

00:22:41.840 There weren't problems to be solved.

00:22:43.720 There was just a sort of contemplation

00:22:45.340 of nature through art.

00:22:47.300 And that for him gave a kind of glimpse

00:22:50.000 into things that are worth doing

00:22:52.120 that are not ameliorative,

00:22:53.540 that are not problem solving.

00:22:55.420 And so for him,

00:22:56.160 that was the big sort of innovation.

00:22:59.840 So how would that play out

00:23:00.640 for someone living in the 21st century?

00:23:03.960 Well, it's a good question.

00:23:05.500 I mean, you could read poetry too.

00:23:06.880 It's not like that.

00:23:07.380 So that option remains.

00:23:08.940 I mean, and you also have,

00:23:10.160 Mill, I think,

00:23:11.460 is sort of picking up on ideas

00:23:12.860 from the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle,

00:23:14.820 who has a similar kind of worry

00:23:16.200 that the life of practical virtue

00:23:18.380 is just a lot of hard work.

00:23:20.240 And, you know,

00:23:20.760 what are you going to relax and do?

00:23:22.260 And he also talks about contemplation.

00:23:24.020 Although for Aristotle,

00:23:25.340 it's contemplating God.

00:23:26.520 It's sort of intellectual reflection on God.

00:23:28.340 So there are kind of highfalutin things

00:23:29.760 it could be.

00:23:30.220 It could be that you read poetry,

00:23:33.200 experience, create,

00:23:34.440 or consume art,

00:23:36.760 or you contemplate God.

00:23:38.220 But there's also more mundane things.

00:23:39.760 So there's friendship,

00:23:42.060 telling jokes,

00:23:43.660 loving relationships,

00:23:45.800 knowledge and learning for its own sake,

00:23:47.920 even kind of forms of productive activity

00:23:49.680 where you make things

00:23:50.740 like you could take up woodworking.

00:23:52.900 And part of the thing that's interesting

00:23:53.920 about productive activity for us

00:23:55.520 is that it sort of brings out something

00:23:57.780 that Aristotle, I think, missed

00:23:59.440 and that Mill isn't always clear about,

00:24:01.760 which is this idea

00:24:03.240 that if you're producing things

00:24:04.420 or making things,

00:24:05.740 well, maybe you're answering a need.

00:24:07.340 Sure, but not all needs

00:24:09.760 are ones we'd be better off without.

00:24:12.140 Sometimes you're answering a need,

00:24:13.460 but actually you're grateful

00:24:14.560 that you need that thing.

00:24:15.940 So people, you know,

00:24:16.860 people who need people.

00:24:17.820 There's this sense that,

00:24:18.740 you know, in spending time with others,

00:24:20.520 you're answering a need.

00:24:21.680 You're sort of reducing their loneliness.

00:24:23.100 But it's not like,

00:24:24.260 ideally, we'd have no need for each other.

00:24:26.880 There are needs like that

00:24:28.140 that are positively valuable.

00:24:30.580 And so when you're engaging in activity

00:24:32.480 that answers needs like that,

00:24:34.780 you're actually doing something

00:24:35.800 that isn't just ameliorative.

00:24:37.000 It really does have this sort of

00:24:38.340 existential meaning giving value.

00:24:41.800 So I think there's a kind of

00:24:42.440 whole range of things

00:24:43.360 that can fit into that category.

00:24:45.840 I mean, as a philosopher,

00:24:46.940 would you get,

00:24:48.380 even as an ethicist,

00:24:49.540 would you sort of grade those things?

00:24:51.200 So, I mean, you're saying

00:24:51.860 like Monday things are fine,

00:24:52.880 but like what if someone's thing

00:24:53.780 is like all I'm going to do

00:24:54.420 is going to play golf

00:24:55.200 and build model trains

00:24:56.680 for the rest of my life?

00:24:58.920 Like what would Aristotle say about that?

00:25:01.280 So that's a very good question.

00:25:03.320 I mean, so there's this sort of

00:25:04.800 part of what I'm interested in

00:25:06.700 and that philosophically,

00:25:08.220 I think is interesting

00:25:08.980 about the midlife crisis

00:25:09.860 is that it reveals

00:25:11.420 that there are many more

00:25:12.940 different dimensions of value

00:25:14.280 than we normally pay attention to.

00:25:15.820 So people often will distinguish

00:25:17.400 between stuff that's

00:25:19.260 instrumentally valuable

00:25:20.200 or a means to an end

00:25:21.240 and stuff that matters in itself.

00:25:22.720 But even among the things

00:25:23.800 that matter in themselves,

00:25:24.720 we have to make further distinctions.

00:25:25.980 Like, does it matter in itself

00:25:28.500 because it's ameliorative

00:25:29.440 and problem-solving

00:25:30.740 or because it is existentially valuable

00:25:33.400 and makes life positively good?

00:25:34.800 And what you're pointing to

00:25:35.600 is the idea that,

00:25:36.220 well, there's a further distinction.

00:25:37.420 Among the things

00:25:38.280 that have existential value,

00:25:39.620 they're not just problem-solving

00:25:40.760 and they're really good.

00:25:41.480 some seem more trivial than others

00:25:44.280 and some seem like

00:25:45.780 they couldn't give meaning

00:25:48.440 to a whole life.

00:25:49.680 Like, doing golf just as a hobby,

00:25:52.100 could that give meaning

00:25:52.940 to your whole life?

00:25:53.800 Whereas maybe poetry could,

00:25:55.420 maybe contemplating God could,

00:25:56.840 maybe philosophy could,

00:25:58.560 maybe friendship and love can.

00:25:59.900 So I do think,

00:26:01.200 although I think it's hard

00:26:02.060 to theorize about

00:26:03.320 and there are a lot of risks

00:26:04.280 in setting up that kind of hierarchy,

00:26:06.900 I do think we need to be able

00:26:08.880 to ask and answer questions

00:26:11.420 about of the various activities

00:26:13.840 that really could make life meaningful,

00:26:16.440 which are the ones

00:26:17.640 that are more meaningful

00:26:18.360 and which ones

00:26:19.160 should we devote more time to?

00:26:20.680 So the short answer is,

00:26:21.820 yeah, I think there is a hierarchy.

00:26:23.300 I think it's very hard

00:26:24.800 to talk about it

00:26:25.760 in ways that don't risk being

00:26:28.880 sort of prejudicial

00:26:30.520 or sort of excessively opinionated.

00:26:33.180 But I think we kind of need

00:26:33.920 to have those conversations.

00:26:35.480 What did you find?

00:26:36.040 What was your existential thing

00:26:36.940 that you found?

00:26:37.480 Well, that is a good question.

00:26:41.020 I mean, for me,

00:26:41.760 in some ways,

00:26:42.960 what happened was that

00:26:44.100 my relationship to philosophy

00:26:46.720 was screwed up.

00:26:48.000 And so philosophy 0.84

00:26:48.560 was still something

00:26:49.380 that really mattered.

00:26:50.360 But the way I was doing it

00:26:51.920 was wrong.

00:26:53.820 I think that I had come to

00:26:55.740 sort of shift from caring

00:26:58.240 about these deep questions

00:26:59.480 and just thinking,

00:27:00.220 I want to ask these questions.

00:27:01.340 This really matters

00:27:02.060 to translating that

00:27:04.100 into the professional context

00:27:05.460 of academia,

00:27:06.080 which has its role

00:27:07.900 and has its value,

00:27:09.260 but you don't want

00:27:10.140 your whole relationship

00:27:11.380 to these deep questions

00:27:12.660 to be,

00:27:13.640 well, can I get another article

00:27:14.680 out of this?

00:27:15.760 And can I get tenure?

00:27:17.280 Which is sort of ameliorative.

00:27:18.800 Can I avoid getting,

00:27:19.600 I mean, can I get tenure?

00:27:20.760 Can I avoid getting fired

00:27:22.040 in the next five years?

00:27:23.240 So I think for me,

00:27:24.460 a big part of it

00:27:25.080 was sort of extricating

00:27:26.160 my love of philosophy

00:27:27.640 from the kind of

00:27:28.740 professional structure

00:27:29.800 that had distorted it.

00:27:31.500 But that's not to say

00:27:32.120 that there are also things

00:27:33.900 like I have a wife I love,

00:27:35.640 I have a kid I love,

00:27:36.860 and I have hobbies

00:27:38.000 like I do fantasy baseball

00:27:40.420 and things like that.

00:27:41.280 So there are other

00:27:41.920 smaller things in my life,

00:27:42.860 but if you're looking

00:27:43.300 for the one that,

00:27:44.300 if on this hierarchy

00:27:45.380 I was going to say,

00:27:46.280 which are the big ones?

00:27:47.300 It would be my relationships

00:27:48.860 with family and friends,

00:27:50.220 and then it would be philosophy.

00:27:52.240 Okay, so if you reach midlife

00:27:53.700 and you're having this problem

00:27:54.520 of you set out

00:27:56.000 and you achieve all the goals

00:27:56.780 you wanted to achieve

00:27:57.740 as a young person,

00:27:59.440 and you're thinking,

00:27:59.860 ah, what else is there now?

00:28:01.480 The answer is find something

00:28:03.620 existential.

00:28:04.720 Find something you just do

00:28:05.420 that you enjoy for the love of it.

00:28:06.800 It's not about problem solving

00:28:08.040 or advancing your career.

00:28:09.160 It's just you do it

00:28:09.680 because you love it.

00:28:10.940 Exactly.

00:28:11.420 And make room in your life

00:28:12.540 for that if you can.

00:28:13.580 So try to at least

00:28:15.360 have some part of your life

00:28:16.680 set aside for that.

00:28:17.640 And it could even be,

00:28:18.480 it could be a hobby,

00:28:20.220 but it could be kind of

00:28:21.020 changing what you do at work

00:28:22.080 and thinking,

00:28:22.800 at this point,

00:28:23.840 everything I do at work

00:28:24.980 is putting out fires.

00:28:27.220 But why did I start

00:28:28.600 this business to begin with?

00:28:29.740 It was because I had very,

00:28:31.120 I had kind of visions

00:28:31.900 that I wanted to achieve

00:28:33.320 that made it positively worthwhile.

00:28:36.420 Have I lost sight of them

00:28:37.360 and can I find room

00:28:38.380 for them in my life?

00:28:39.220 So I think the kind of

00:28:39.780 practical things like that

00:28:40.700 you can do to sort of rediscover,

00:28:42.580 usually what's happened

00:28:43.400 is that there have been

00:28:45.280 these sort of roots

00:28:46.840 of existential value

00:28:47.920 in your life

00:28:48.380 and then they just get

00:28:49.160 sidelined,

00:28:49.940 sidelined,

00:28:50.400 and sidelined.

00:28:51.300 And so sometimes

00:28:52.120 it's something totally new

00:28:53.060 and sometimes what's involved

00:28:55.040 is figuring out

00:28:56.320 what got sidelined

00:28:57.700 in your life

00:28:58.180 that you can now rediscover

00:28:59.960 and sort of bring back

00:29:01.280 into focus.

00:29:02.600 Okay, so another problem

00:29:03.620 of midlife

00:29:04.280 that you tackle

00:29:05.360 is feeling regret

00:29:07.780 over decisions

00:29:09.020 you didn't make.

00:29:10.320 So it's like the feeling

00:29:10.980 of missing out,

00:29:11.800 like you missed out.

00:29:12.700 So, you know,

00:29:13.040 someone, you know,

00:29:14.020 they became an accountant

00:29:14.900 instead of pursuing

00:29:15.980 their music career dreams

00:29:17.560 or they're still living

00:29:18.320 in their hometown

00:29:18.920 instead of moving

00:29:19.880 to some exotic locale.

00:29:22.100 Any insights from philosophy

00:29:23.520 on how to handle

00:29:24.320 the worry

00:29:25.060 that you've missed out

00:29:25.680 in life?

00:29:26.020 Yeah, so this was

00:29:27.660 definitely part of it

00:29:28.500 for me

00:29:28.800 and I do think

00:29:29.360 it's something

00:29:29.720 that there's a kind

00:29:30.360 of philosophical,

00:29:31.640 a useful philosophical

00:29:32.760 lens on.

00:29:34.360 And I think it involves

00:29:35.900 sort of asking

00:29:36.740 where this is coming from,

00:29:38.680 like what explains

00:29:39.760 this phenomenon?

00:29:41.020 And what it's explained

00:29:42.140 by is at root

00:29:43.760 something philosophers

00:29:44.540 call sort of

00:29:45.340 value pluralism.

00:29:46.300 What's going on is

00:29:47.060 there's many different

00:29:48.300 kinds of valuable things.

00:29:51.000 You could love music

00:29:52.340 and then you could love

00:29:53.260 your hometown

00:29:54.520 and you could love

00:29:55.540 exotic locations

00:29:57.200 and travel

00:29:57.840 and in a way

00:29:59.640 it's sort of guaranteed

00:30:00.580 that wherever you end up

00:30:02.260 you're going to miss out

00:30:03.100 on one of them.

00:30:04.300 And so

00:30:04.680 part of what

00:30:06.720 I think can help

00:30:07.560 to reconcile people

00:30:08.840 to this phenomenon

00:30:09.620 of missing out

00:30:10.140 is realizing

00:30:10.840 two things I suppose.

00:30:12.720 One is

00:30:13.040 given this array

00:30:14.620 of values

00:30:15.320 kind of all the different

00:30:16.160 things you love

00:30:17.240 it's inevitable

00:30:18.420 that you're going to miss out.

00:30:19.440 You're going to miss out

00:30:19.980 on something.

00:30:20.480 Even if you sort of

00:30:21.420 live forever

00:30:22.160 there's still

00:30:23.400 a shape your life

00:30:24.900 has to have

00:30:25.560 and you could have

00:30:26.300 done different things

00:30:27.060 on different days

00:30:27.780 and you'll never

00:30:28.300 be able to go back

00:30:29.180 and change that.

00:30:30.980 And the second thing

00:30:31.580 that I think is helpful

00:30:32.120 is to ask

00:30:33.040 well okay

00:30:33.840 this seems inevitable

00:30:35.600 why is it inevitable

00:30:37.420 and what would it take

00:30:38.880 to avoid it?

00:30:39.680 Well the only way

00:30:41.120 you could sort of

00:30:41.860 live a life

00:30:42.460 that wasn't subject

00:30:43.580 to this problem

00:30:44.600 of missing out

00:30:45.240 the sort of inevitability

00:30:46.300 of missing out

00:30:47.000 would be if

00:30:48.020 either

00:30:48.500 there really wasn't

00:30:50.020 very much in the world

00:30:51.000 worth doing

00:30:51.560 like the world

00:30:52.180 was sort of

00:30:52.560 this stark place

00:30:53.620 where there was like

00:30:54.160 one thing that matters

00:30:55.220 and everything else

00:30:56.060 is grey

00:30:56.600 or the world

00:30:58.240 has this variety

00:30:59.000 of things

00:30:59.480 but you're

00:31:00.120 you're sort of

00:31:01.020 completely indifferent

00:31:02.480 to or unresponsive

00:31:03.720 to most of them

00:31:04.420 so

00:31:04.900 what it would take

00:31:06.600 not

00:31:07.320 to live a life

00:31:08.740 that involves

00:31:09.840 this kind of missing out

00:31:10.940 would be to

00:31:11.720 impoverish the world

00:31:12.760 or impoverish yourself

00:31:14.020 and no one really wants that

00:31:15.680 that's not what you want

00:31:16.500 so

00:31:16.680 the truth is

00:31:17.800 we sort of

00:31:18.600 want

00:31:19.320 if we're thinking clearly

00:31:21.120 to sort of lean into

00:31:22.940 the inevitability

00:31:23.900 of missing out

00:31:24.780 because it's a way

00:31:26.420 of acknowledging

00:31:27.300 and rightly acknowledging

00:31:28.540 how

00:31:29.180 the richness of the world

00:31:30.220 and how much there is

00:31:31.140 out there

00:31:31.640 to appreciate

00:31:32.300 and value

00:31:33.700 and so

00:31:34.500 I think that

00:31:35.600 that way of reframing things

00:31:37.060 is I think

00:31:38.080 very helpful

00:31:38.540 it's not

00:31:39.320 it's kind of

00:31:40.180 it's not a way of solving

00:31:41.440 the problem that says

00:31:42.240 hey

00:31:42.640 here's a trick

00:31:43.560 you know

00:31:44.120 do these three things

00:31:45.160 and you'll never miss out

00:31:46.040 on anything in your life

00:31:46.740 it's like a kind of

00:31:47.920 philosophical form

00:31:49.020 of cognitive therapy

00:31:50.640 where you say

00:31:51.440 what's happening

00:31:53.340 when you feel frustrated

00:31:54.540 about missing out

00:31:55.460 is that you're

00:31:56.820 reaching for something

00:31:58.220 that seems possible

00:32:00.040 you really wish

00:32:00.700 you could have it

00:32:01.300 but the more you reflect on it

00:32:02.780 you'll realize

00:32:03.540 it's impossible

00:32:04.720 and it's sort of a good thing

00:32:06.380 that you're forced

00:32:07.380 to miss out

00:32:07.860 in that way

00:32:08.320 it's a feature

00:32:09.320 of the richness of life

00:32:11.620 and the richness

00:32:12.100 of your response to it

00:32:13.200 so

00:32:13.600 yeah

00:32:14.320 it doesn't solve the problem

00:32:15.260 in the sense of taking it away

00:32:16.740 but it reframes it

00:32:18.000 so that it becomes

00:32:19.400 more acceptable

00:32:21.160 and more livable

00:32:23.320 I think

00:32:23.820 and another point

00:32:25.100 you make as well

00:32:25.960 that can help

00:32:26.520 is

00:32:26.880 I think a lot of times

00:32:27.480 people feel bad

00:32:28.220 about missing out

00:32:28.720 because like

00:32:28.920 well I'm missing out

00:32:29.660 on options

00:32:30.100 I wish I had

00:32:30.700 all the options

00:32:31.300 I had when I was a kid

00:32:32.280 or a younger person

00:32:33.500 but like having a lot of options

00:32:35.220 if you like

00:32:35.720 really remember

00:32:36.520 what it was like

00:32:37.060 it was actually

00:32:38.020 kind of stressful

00:32:38.780 to think about

00:32:39.780 here's all these things

00:32:41.020 I could do

00:32:41.580 and it's kind of nice

00:32:42.780 to know

00:32:43.100 well I don't have to

00:32:43.820 worry about that anymore

00:32:44.520 like I have

00:32:45.640 I have an identity

00:32:46.400 I have a self

00:32:47.200 that I can

00:32:47.840 I can navigate the world with

00:32:49.880 and I'm not

00:32:50.400 caught up in all these options

00:32:51.680 so I think one thing

00:32:52.780 that is useful

00:32:53.940 is thinking about

00:32:54.660 okay

00:32:54.960 options are good

00:32:56.100 but you know

00:32:56.880 sometimes not

00:32:57.920 having options

00:32:58.660 is nice as well

00:32:59.520 yeah

00:33:00.600 yeah exactly

00:33:01.400 I mean there's this sort of

00:33:02.440 fantasy we can go in for

00:33:04.160 that is

00:33:04.660 sort of impossible

00:33:06.200 where we think

00:33:06.860 you know

00:33:07.700 I do this sometimes

00:33:08.520 I look back and think

00:33:09.480 I wish I was just

00:33:10.620 back in

00:33:11.260 in grad school

00:33:12.420 or in college

00:33:13.160 I could make so much

00:33:14.740 more of it now

00:33:15.460 I could get so much

00:33:16.840 more out of it

00:33:17.320 I'd make different

00:33:17.940 decisions

00:33:18.300 I could try so many

00:33:19.140 different things

00:33:19.780 and it's sort of

00:33:21.240 it's an illusion

00:33:22.000 what's happening is

00:33:22.700 I'm imagining me now

00:33:24.520 with the benefit

00:33:25.660 of all the experiences

00:33:26.780 between

00:33:27.280 you know

00:33:29.040 college

00:33:29.640 and middle age

00:33:31.240 being back then

00:33:32.440 but of course

00:33:33.540 the whole point

00:33:34.580 about being back then

00:33:35.360 is that you don't have

00:33:36.280 any of the

00:33:37.160 the security

00:33:38.880 and self-knowledge

00:33:39.880 that you slowly

00:33:40.740 and painstakingly

00:33:41.760 acquire over

00:33:42.460 20 or 30 years

00:33:43.380 so

00:33:43.900 being back then

00:33:45.080 you know

00:33:46.060 what your situation

00:33:47.040 then was not

00:33:47.680 this sort of

00:33:48.140 fantasy situation

00:33:49.140 in which

00:33:49.540 you know exactly

00:33:50.580 who you are

00:33:51.160 and yet you also

00:33:51.840 have all the options

00:33:52.600 that's just not

00:33:53.240 a possibility

00:33:53.880 and so

00:33:54.720 that

00:33:55.060 you know

00:33:55.580 kind of

00:33:55.900 ridding yourself

00:33:56.640 of that illusion

00:33:57.360 that kind of

00:33:57.900 fantasy

00:33:58.300 as I think

00:33:58.940 it goes along

00:34:00.020 with the point

00:34:00.460 you're making

00:34:00.900 that you have

00:34:01.720 to remember

00:34:02.320 the ways

00:34:03.340 in which

00:34:03.880 the array

00:34:04.720 of options

00:34:05.260 is

00:34:06.480 the correlative

00:34:07.840 of

00:34:08.100 not knowing

00:34:08.740 who you are

00:34:09.240 not knowing

00:34:09.740 what you're

00:34:10.060 going to do

00:34:10.460 and the

00:34:11.140 instability

00:34:11.980 and uncertainty

00:34:12.920 that goes

00:34:13.480 goes along

00:34:14.100 with that

00:34:14.480 so another

00:34:15.500 feeling of regret

00:34:16.440 that people

00:34:16.860 can experience

00:34:17.560 at midlife

00:34:18.120 is regret

00:34:19.560 for

00:34:20.000 it's not

00:34:20.240 for like

00:34:20.520 the things

00:34:20.880 they missed

00:34:21.220 out on

00:34:21.660 but it was

00:34:21.980 regret

00:34:22.360 for the

00:34:22.780 decisions

00:34:23.660 they made

00:34:24.380 or the

00:34:25.360 plans

00:34:26.220 they made

00:34:26.880 and it

00:34:27.700 didn't go well

00:34:28.940 like it was

00:34:29.320 a bad decision

00:34:30.140 looking back

00:34:30.700 on it

00:34:31.080 you know

00:34:31.760 what's the source

00:34:32.400 of that regret

00:34:32.980 and then what

00:34:33.580 can we do

00:34:34.520 to ameliorate

00:34:35.340 that

00:34:35.640 yeah I mean

00:34:37.400 so this is

00:34:38.420 sort of in many

00:34:39.680 ways a harder

00:34:40.320 problem

00:34:41.000 and the missing

00:34:41.740 out thing

00:34:42.180 it seems like

00:34:42.660 well even if

00:34:43.080 things go well

00:34:43.740 you're going

00:34:44.180 to miss out

00:34:44.720 so one thing

00:34:45.980 to say is

00:34:46.520 this is not a sign

00:34:47.460 that something

00:34:47.740 went wrong

00:34:48.120 with your life

00:34:48.680 this is just

00:34:49.540 how it goes

00:34:50.100 like you

00:34:50.440 can't do

00:34:50.960 everything

00:34:51.400 whereas when

00:34:52.520 you look back

00:34:52.980 and think

00:34:53.480 you know

00:34:54.620 I made a

00:34:55.020 terrible mistake

00:34:55.860 I betrayed

00:34:56.920 someone and I

00:34:57.500 just regret it

00:34:58.300 forever

00:34:58.660 or something

00:35:00.080 terrible happened

00:35:00.740 to me

00:35:01.100 and I just

00:35:01.520 wish it

00:35:02.040 hadn't

00:35:02.420 those things

00:35:03.940 are not

00:35:04.180 inevitable

00:35:04.560 like you know

00:35:05.040 you might not

00:35:05.680 have made

00:35:05.920 that mistake

00:35:06.540 and you know

00:35:07.260 it could have

00:35:07.860 been that

00:35:08.300 you didn't

00:35:09.420 go through

00:35:10.180 whatever

00:35:10.520 suffering

00:35:11.260 or injustice

00:35:11.920 you experienced

00:35:13.020 earlier in life

00:35:13.700 and so

00:35:14.520 you know

00:35:15.260 I think it's

00:35:15.880 just

00:35:16.180 it's not

00:35:16.960 in principle

00:35:17.640 inevitable

00:35:18.160 that you'll

00:35:18.620 have those

00:35:19.160 kinds of

00:35:19.760 aspects of

00:35:20.300 your life

00:35:20.580 in practice

00:35:21.280 though everyone

00:35:21.800 does have

00:35:22.520 mistakes

00:35:23.180 misfortunes

00:35:23.900 there's failures

00:35:24.380 there's things

00:35:24.760 that have gone

00:35:25.120 wrong that they

00:35:25.680 have to live

00:35:26.180 with

00:35:26.380 and there

00:35:27.940 I think

00:35:28.240 sort of part

00:35:28.820 of what

00:35:29.300 we can do

00:35:30.300 to sort of

00:35:31.020 reframe it

00:35:31.620 is again

00:35:32.840 there's a kind

00:35:33.940 of incomplete

00:35:34.460 thinking through

00:35:35.500 of what it

00:35:36.280 would mean

00:35:36.900 not to have

00:35:37.800 made those

00:35:38.220 mistakes

00:35:38.720 or not to

00:35:39.640 have experienced

00:35:40.820 those misfortunes

00:35:41.740 and when we

00:35:42.260 really think

00:35:42.720 through fully

00:35:43.540 the desire

00:35:44.900 for the past

00:35:45.860 to have gone

00:35:46.280 differently

00:35:46.660 we realize

00:35:47.960 actually

00:35:48.900 it's more

00:35:50.380 complicated than

00:35:50.880 I thought

00:35:51.180 so the clearest

00:35:52.140 example of this

00:35:53.100 is if you're a

00:35:54.480 parent you can do

00:35:55.200 this you can think

00:35:55.820 okay I look back

00:35:57.440 at mistakes

00:35:58.280 and misfortunes

00:35:59.160 in my life

00:35:59.820 that happened

00:36:01.020 before my child

00:36:02.260 was born

00:36:02.700 maybe I wish

00:36:04.340 I hadn't gone

00:36:04.780 to that college

00:36:05.480 where I happened

00:36:06.420 to meet my wife

00:36:07.260 or I wish

00:36:08.180 I hadn't

00:36:08.880 left that person

00:36:10.240 for my future

00:36:11.620 husband

00:36:11.980 so there's some

00:36:12.900 kind of mistake

00:36:13.420 you kind of think

00:36:13.940 I regret this

00:36:14.800 and you look back

00:36:15.600 but you think

00:36:16.420 okay

00:36:16.980 there's a sense

00:36:18.620 in which

00:36:19.120 I wish that

00:36:20.020 hadn't happened

00:36:20.560 there's a sense

00:36:20.980 in which there was

00:36:21.340 something bad

00:36:21.820 about that

00:36:22.320 but now

00:36:23.640 from the perspective

00:36:24.500 of seeing

00:36:25.260 what happened

00:36:26.200 afterwards

00:36:27.020 the whole unfolding

00:36:28.280 of history

00:36:28.820 in which

00:36:29.300 one crucial thing

00:36:30.700 that happened

00:36:31.120 was that

00:36:31.600 your child

00:36:32.760 was born

00:36:33.200 and they

00:36:34.240 wouldn't have

00:36:34.880 existed at all

00:36:35.940 if it hadn't

00:36:37.120 been for

00:36:37.620 the history

00:36:38.620 of how you

00:36:39.120 ended up

00:36:39.460 in this

00:36:39.840 particular

00:36:40.220 relationship

00:36:40.740 and you know

00:36:41.560 even having

00:36:42.020 a child

00:36:42.540 it's so

00:36:43.340 sensitive

00:36:43.700 to the

00:36:44.220 genetics

00:36:44.880 and which

00:36:45.400 sperm

00:36:45.780 and which

00:36:46.100 egg

00:36:46.260 slight decisions

00:36:48.000 in your past

00:36:48.580 life would affect

00:36:49.200 whether your

00:36:49.920 child even

00:36:50.360 exists

00:36:50.660 so wishing

00:36:52.780 that the past

00:36:53.780 had sort of

00:36:54.280 not gone

00:36:55.140 the way it

00:36:55.540 had

00:36:55.740 wishing you

00:36:56.140 could sort

00:36:56.400 of rewind

00:36:56.960 it and do

00:36:57.380 it over

00:36:57.680 again

00:36:57.940 when you

00:36:58.460 really think

00:36:58.960 through the

00:36:59.240 implications

00:36:59.700 of that

00:37:00.220 at least

00:37:01.500 in this

00:37:01.840 case

00:37:02.160 where the

00:37:02.780 existence

00:37:03.140 of your

00:37:03.500 child

00:37:03.920 depends

00:37:04.620 on you

00:37:04.880 having

00:37:05.180 experienced

00:37:05.860 that misfortune

00:37:06.540 or making

00:37:07.380 that mistake

00:37:08.000 actually when you

00:37:09.300 fully think it

00:37:10.180 through

00:37:10.560 you're likely

00:37:12.800 to be at best

00:37:13.540 ambivalent

00:37:14.120 the thought is

00:37:14.760 well I kind

00:37:15.160 of wish

00:37:15.640 I had

00:37:17.180 ended that

00:37:17.920 relationship

00:37:18.400 or I wish

00:37:19.000 I hadn't

00:37:19.860 gone to that

00:37:20.320 college

00:37:20.620 but

00:37:21.060 if I hadn't

00:37:22.700 my kid

00:37:23.060 wouldn't exist

00:37:23.520 and I love

00:37:23.900 my kid

00:37:24.320 and I affirm

00:37:24.920 their existence

00:37:25.500 and I'm

00:37:25.820 attached

00:37:26.140 to them

00:37:26.440 and so

00:37:27.340 there's this

00:37:28.480 sort of

00:37:28.660 great

00:37:28.900 counterweight

00:37:29.800 to regret

00:37:30.600 about the

00:37:30.980 past

00:37:31.280 that comes

00:37:32.200 from

00:37:32.680 attachment

00:37:33.740 to

00:37:34.300 the

00:37:34.880 individuals

00:37:35.400 in your

00:37:35.760 life

00:37:36.160 whose

00:37:36.740 existence

00:37:37.320 depends

00:37:38.200 on it

00:37:38.520 and what

00:37:39.380 I think

00:37:39.660 actually

00:37:39.960 is that

00:37:40.240 that's

00:37:40.640 not

00:37:40.880 it's

00:37:41.360 not

00:37:41.540 just

00:37:41.780 specific

00:37:42.180 to the

00:37:42.560 kind

00:37:42.880 of

00:37:42.980 special

00:37:43.360 case

00:37:43.760 where

00:37:43.980 the

00:37:44.140 existence

00:37:44.620 of

00:37:44.960 someone

00:37:45.180 in your

00:37:45.500 life

00:37:45.860 that

00:37:46.460 you

00:37:46.580 love

00:37:46.940 depends

00:37:47.720 on

00:37:48.020 the

00:37:48.980 mistakes

00:37:49.340 and

00:37:49.500 misfortunes

00:37:50.000 in the

00:37:50.220 past

00:37:50.480 even if

00:37:51.120 you sort

00:37:51.400 of expand

00:37:51.960 to think

00:37:52.400 about

00:37:52.620 not just

00:37:52.980 the existence

00:37:53.420 of people

00:37:55.500 having

00:37:55.760 relationships

00:37:56.340 with them

00:37:56.820 I think

00:37:58.200 what we

00:37:58.500 find

00:37:58.860 is that

00:37:59.160 we have

00:37:59.500 a kind

00:37:59.800 of

00:38:00.020 reasonable

00:38:01.060 rational

00:38:01.720 sensible

00:38:02.440 appropriate

00:38:03.040 attachment

00:38:03.620 not just

00:38:04.500 to our

00:38:04.760 life

00:38:04.980 going

00:38:05.220 well

00:38:05.520 but to

00:38:06.220 the

00:38:06.420 particular

00:38:06.880 ways

00:38:07.420 in which

00:38:07.680 it

00:38:07.800 goes

00:38:07.960 well

00:38:08.180 and the

00:38:08.440 particular

00:38:08.700 people

00:38:09.160 who

00:38:09.320 are

00:38:09.440 part

00:38:09.680 of

00:38:09.800 that

00:38:09.980 so

00:38:10.360 you

00:38:10.480 can

00:38:10.600 ask

00:38:10.900 yourself

00:38:11.280 well

00:38:11.820 if

00:38:11.940 I

00:38:12.020 hadn't

00:38:12.240 made

00:38:12.380 that

00:38:12.560 mistake

00:38:12.920 if

00:38:13.100 I

00:38:13.180 hadn't

00:38:14.180 been

00:38:14.520 I don't

00:38:14.880 know

00:38:14.900 what was

00:38:15.120 your

00:38:15.240 example

00:38:15.560 if

00:38:15.720 I

00:38:15.840 kept

00:38:17.240 with

00:38:17.460 my

00:38:17.600 music

00:38:17.880 career

00:38:18.280 and

00:38:18.820 not

00:38:18.980 been

00:38:19.120 an

00:38:19.300 accountant

00:38:19.660 would

00:38:20.460 I

00:38:20.580 have

00:38:20.720 met

00:38:20.860 my

00:38:21.100 friend

00:38:21.920 Jamie

00:38:22.720 and

00:38:23.480 if

00:38:23.680 I

00:38:23.760 hadn't

00:38:23.880 met

00:38:24.000 my

00:38:25.260 friend

00:38:25.460 Jamie

00:38:25.680 I

00:38:25.900 wouldn't

00:38:26.080 know

00:38:26.220 Jamie

00:38:26.460 and

00:38:26.620 I

00:38:26.700 love

00:38:26.880 Jamie

00:38:27.180 and

00:38:27.340 there's

00:38:28.500 at least

00:38:28.820 a kind

00:38:29.140 of

00:38:29.420 counterweight

00:38:30.800 to

00:38:31.500 the

00:38:32.420 sort

00:38:33.040 of

00:38:33.260 abstract

00:38:33.820 wishing

00:38:34.280 that

00:38:34.600 things

00:38:34.840 have

00:38:34.980 gone

00:38:35.160 better

00:38:35.380 which

00:38:35.660 is

00:38:35.860 all

00:38:36.500 the

00:38:36.680 specific

00:38:37.100 things

00:38:37.400 in

00:38:37.520 your

00:38:37.640 life

00:38:37.860 you're

00:38:38.020 attached

00:38:38.340 to

00:38:38.580 so

00:38:38.940 there's

00:38:39.260 a

00:38:39.320 risk

00:38:39.820 here

00:38:40.180 akin

00:38:40.860 to

00:38:41.040 some

00:38:41.180 of

00:38:41.260 the

00:38:41.300 risks

00:38:41.420 we

00:38:41.540 talked

00:38:41.740 about

00:38:41.920 before

00:38:42.400 of

00:38:42.860 abstracting

00:38:43.540 too

00:38:49.300 without

00:38:50.100 properly

00:38:51.200 appreciating

00:38:52.080 the

00:38:52.820 particular

00:38:53.480 aspects

00:38:54.200 of your

00:38:54.540 life

00:38:54.840 that are

00:38:55.160 actually

00:38:55.420 good

00:38:55.660 and

00:38:55.960 again

00:38:56.120 that's

00:38:56.460 not

00:38:56.560 going

00:38:56.680 to

00:38:56.780 mean

00:38:56.980 that

00:38:57.140 this

00:38:57.300 wasn't

00:38:57.580 a

00:38:57.680 mistake

00:38:58.000 and

00:38:58.120 it

00:38:58.240 wasn't

00:38:58.480 a

00:38:58.580 misfortune

00:38:59.140 but

00:38:59.620 it's

00:38:59.780 a

00:38:59.920 way

00:39:00.120 to

00:39:00.380 change

00:39:01.840 how

00:39:02.000 you

00:39:02.120 feel

00:39:02.300 about

00:39:02.480 it

00:39:02.560 or

00:39:02.680 prevent

00:39:03.040 yourself

00:39:03.460 from

00:39:03.780 thinking

00:39:05.280 about

00:39:05.640 it

00:39:05.760 in

00:39:05.880 a

00:39:06.000 way

00:39:06.120 that's

00:39:06.340 unduly

00:39:06.920 abstract

00:39:07.580 and

00:39:08.140 therefore

00:39:08.520 misleading

00:39:09.440 It's

00:39:10.520 a wonderful

00:39:11.700 life

00:39:12.020 that's

00:39:12.220 what

00:39:12.280 happens

00:39:12.460 to

00:39:12.600 George

00:39:12.820 Bailey

00:39:13.120 he

00:39:13.760 gets

00:39:14.240 to

00:39:14.380 see

00:39:14.600 what

00:39:14.800 life

00:39:15.020 is

00:39:15.140 like

00:39:15.320 if

00:39:15.440 he

00:39:15.480 was

00:39:15.580 never

00:39:15.780 born

00:39:16.180 exactly

00:39:17.280 yeah

00:39:17.640 yeah

00:39:17.860 so

00:39:18.000 it's

00:39:18.140 like

00:39:18.280 it's

00:39:18.720 these

00:39:19.040 are

00:39:19.160 all

00:39:19.340 versions

00:39:19.740 of

00:39:19.920 the

00:39:20.020 same

00:39:20.220 thought

00:39:20.520 which

00:39:20.740 is

00:39:20.920 you

00:39:21.360 wish

00:39:21.940 something

00:39:23.000 hadn't

00:39:23.340 happened

00:39:23.760 but

00:39:24.740 you're

00:39:24.880 not

00:39:25.040 really

00:39:25.260 thinking

00:39:25.580 through

00:39:25.840 fully

00:39:26.200 all

00:39:26.400 the

00:39:26.520 consequences

00:39:27.020 of

00:39:27.280 that

00:39:27.420 and

00:39:27.520 when

00:39:27.600 you

00:39:27.700 fully

00:39:27.900 think

00:39:28.140 it

00:39:28.280 through

00:39:28.540 you

00:39:29.260 know

00:39:29.420 ambivalence

00:39:30.300 is

00:39:30.480 the

00:39:30.740 sort

00:39:31.240 of

00:39:31.340 almost

00:39:31.660 pervasive

00:39:32.260 relationship

00:39:33.180 we

00:39:33.860 have

00:39:34.460 and ought

00:39:34.780 to

00:39:34.900 have

00:39:35.080 to

00:39:35.220 most

00:39:35.420 of

00:39:35.540 the

00:39:35.640 things

00:39:35.860 in

00:39:36.000 our

00:39:36.140 lives

00:39:36.420 which

00:39:36.800 is

00:39:36.920 again

00:39:37.140 it's

00:39:37.640 not

00:39:37.800 to

00:39:37.960 say

00:39:38.120 that

00:39:38.320 they

00:39:38.940 weren't

00:39:39.200 mistakes

00:39:39.640 or

00:39:39.820 they

00:39:39.960 weren't

00:39:40.240 misfortunes

00:39:40.920 it's

00:39:41.400 just

00:39:41.560 to

00:39:41.700 say

00:39:41.840 that

00:39:42.080 so

00:39:42.900 much

00:39:43.180 in

00:39:43.300 our

00:39:43.440 lives

00:39:43.680 depends

00:39:44.260 in

00:39:45.260 all

00:39:46.060 of

00:39:46.180 its

00:39:46.320 details

00:39:46.800 on

00:39:47.580 what

00:39:47.780 exactly

00:39:48.240 happened

00:39:48.740 and

00:39:49.500 it's

00:39:49.820 a

00:39:49.960 rare

00:39:50.160 case

00:39:50.580 where

00:39:50.880 there's

00:39:51.140 nothing

00:39:51.680 that

00:39:52.340 came

00:39:52.560 out

00:39:52.680 of

00:39:52.780 a

00:39:52.880 misfortune

00:39:53.420 that

00:39:53.640 involves

00:39:54.420 an

00:39:54.580 attachment

00:39:54.980 that

00:39:55.260 you

00:39:55.380 wouldn't

00:39:55.720 have

00:39:55.820 been

00:39:55.920 able

00:39:56.080 to

00:39:56.240 make

00:39:56.520 otherwise

00:39:57.280 so

00:39:58.320 this

00:39:58.660 is

00:39:58.800 about

00:39:58.980 you

00:39:59.300 can't

00:40:00.460 do

00:40:00.560 anything

00:40:00.720 about

00:40:00.880 you

00:40:01.000 can't

00:40:01.160 go

00:40:01.240 back

00:40:01.420 in

00:40:01.500 time

00:40:01.600 to

00:40:01.700 change

00:40:01.880 things

00:40:02.000 so

00:40:02.160 this

00:40:02.380 approach

00:40:03.600 is

00:40:03.780 just

00:40:03.980 trying

00:40:04.240 to

00:40:04.460 put

00:40:05.160 in

00:40:05.300 balm

00:40:05.600 on

00:40:06.380 the

00:40:06.600 pain

00:40:07.220 is

00:40:07.360 that

00:40:07.540 yeah

00:40:07.900 it

00:40:08.100 doesn't

00:40:08.740 solve

00:40:10.380 the

00:40:10.640 problem

00:40:10.920 by

00:40:11.100 making

00:40:11.380 it

00:40:11.500 go

00:40:11.680 away

00:40:11.960 one

00:40:12.740 thing

00:40:12.900 to

00:40:13.020 say

00:40:13.180 about

00:40:13.320 this

00:40:13.500 is

00:40:13.740 a

00:40:14.560 lot

00:40:14.860 of

00:40:14.980 what

00:40:15.100 I

00:40:15.260 was

00:40:15.460 thinking

00:40:15.700 about

00:40:15.960 around

00:40:16.140 midlife

00:40:16.600 was

00:40:16.860 devoted

00:40:17.280 to

00:40:17.800 the

00:40:18.160 question

00:40:18.560 I

00:40:19.120 knew

00:40:19.260 I

00:40:19.360 wasn't

00:40:19.580 going

00:40:19.700 to

00:40:19.800 change

00:40:20.140 my

00:40:20.320 life

00:40:20.540 in

00:40:20.660 a

00:40:20.780 radical

00:40:21.020 way

00:40:21.360 and

00:40:22.000 I

00:40:22.140 felt

00:40:22.320 like

00:40:22.520 I

00:40:22.640 was

00:40:22.820 being

00:40:23.640 ungrateful

00:40:24.120 I

00:40:24.260 was

00:40:24.340 making

00:40:24.560 some

00:40:24.740 kind

00:40:24.860 of

00:40:24.960 mistake

00:40:25.440 and

00:40:25.940 so

00:40:26.060 for

00:40:26.240 me

00:40:26.420 the

00:40:26.600 goal

00:40:26.760 was

00:40:26.920 very

00:40:27.120 much

00:40:27.380 about

00:40:27.600 thinking

00:40:28.020 why

00:40:29.560 am

00:40:29.800 I

00:40:29.940 not

00:40:30.180 appreciating

00:40:30.780 my

00:40:30.960 life

00:40:31.320 what

00:40:32.280 mistakes

00:40:32.700 am

00:40:32.820 I

00:40:32.920 making

00:40:33.220 and

00:40:33.440 trying

00:40:33.800 to

00:40:34.680 uproot

00:40:35.160 them

00:40:35.460 sometimes

00:40:36.920 what

00:40:37.160 happens

00:40:37.440 when you

00:40:37.720 go

00:40:38.060 through

00:40:38.220 that

00:40:38.460 process

00:40:38.940 of

00:40:39.140 trying

00:40:39.440 to

00:40:39.740 diagnose

00:40:40.320 the

00:40:40.500 mistakes

00:40:40.860 is

00:40:41.040 you

00:40:41.160 realize

00:40:41.560 nope

00:40:42.420 I

00:40:43.120 really

00:40:43.360 should

00:40:43.580 quit

00:40:43.740 this

00:40:43.900 job

00:40:44.200 or

00:40:44.660 nope

00:40:45.220 this

00:40:45.500 relationship

00:40:45.940 is

00:40:46.140 not

00:40:46.300 working

00:40:46.600 I

00:40:46.720 need

00:40:46.860 to

00:40:47.000 leave

00:40:47.140 sometimes

00:40:47.800 radical

00:40:49.020 change

00:40:49.540 is

00:40:49.840 what's

00:40:50.020 required

00:40:50.320 not

00:40:50.520 just

00:40:50.700 changing

00:40:51.000 how

00:40:51.180 you

00:40:51.320 think

00:40:51.600 but

00:40:51.940 even

00:40:52.120 then

00:40:52.420 I

00:40:52.560 think

00:40:52.840 going

00:40:53.400 through

00:40:53.560 the

00:40:53.700 process

00:40:54.020 of

00:40:54.180 trying

00:40:54.320 to

00:40:54.440 figure

00:40:54.600 out

00:40:54.880 am

00:40:55.140 I

00:40:55.280 just

00:40:55.540 making

00:40:55.820 a

00:40:55.960 mistake

00:40:56.300 about

00:40:56.520 how

00:40:56.660 I

00:40:56.800 think

00:40:57.060 about

00:40:57.240 my

00:40:57.400 life

00:40:57.660 so

00:40:57.820 that

00:40:57.920 I'm

00:40:58.020 not

00:40:58.160 appreciating

00:40:58.780 it

00:40:59.000 is

00:40:59.580 a

00:40:59.840 step

00:41:00.820 towards

00:41:01.440 realizing

00:41:02.340 either

00:41:03.380 yeah

00:41:03.740 I'm

00:41:04.020 just

00:41:04.160 not

00:41:04.300 thinking

00:41:04.540 about

00:41:04.760 this

00:41:04.960 right

00:41:05.220 or

00:41:05.780 no

00:41:06.400 even

00:41:06.840 when

00:41:07.020 I

00:41:07.140 think

00:41:07.320 about

00:41:07.520 it

00:41:07.640 right

00:41:07.880 the

00:41:08.680 problem

00:41:08.980 doesn't

00:41:09.240 go

00:41:09.400 away

00:41:09.700 and

00:41:09.880 then

00:41:09.980 you

00:41:10.100 have

00:41:10.240 learned

00:41:10.500 something

00:41:10.840 about

00:41:11.040 what

00:41:11.220 kind

00:41:11.560 of

00:41:11.680 change

00:41:12.120 you

00:41:12.680 need

00:41:12.820 to

00:41:12.960 make

00:41:13.240 so

00:41:14.020 a

00:41:14.200 final

00:41:14.440 problem

00:41:14.820 that

00:41:14.960 you

00:41:15.020 address

00:41:15.400 in

00:41:15.520 the

00:41:15.620 book

00:41:15.840 is

00:41:16.240 the

00:41:16.760 feeling

00:41:17.060 that

00:41:17.240 many

00:41:17.460 people

00:41:17.780 have

00:41:18.280 that

00:41:18.460 they

00:41:18.740 when

00:41:19.400 they

00:41:19.500 reach

00:41:19.660 middle

00:41:19.900 age

00:41:20.340 they

00:41:20.540 have

00:41:20.800 nothing

00:41:21.240 else

00:41:21.440 to

00:41:21.580 look

00:41:21.800 for

00:41:22.080 in

00:41:22.200 life

00:41:22.360 nothing

00:41:22.560 to

00:41:22.760 strive

00:41:23.080 for

00:41:23.400 so

00:41:24.000 when

00:41:24.120 you're

00:41:24.260 a

00:41:24.400 young

00:41:24.540 adult

00:41:24.760 you've

00:41:25.000 got

00:41:25.180 all

00:41:25.300 these

00:41:25.440 life

00:41:25.900 goals

00:41:26.140 that

00:41:26.320 direct

00:41:37.520 you

00:41:37.880 probably

00:41:38.320 feel

00:41:38.960 kind

00:41:39.200 of

00:41:39.280 aimless

00:41:39.680 so

00:41:39.840 how

00:41:39.940 do

00:41:40.020 you

00:41:40.100 overcome

00:41:40.380 that

00:41:40.560 what

00:41:40.700 can

00:41:41.220 philosophy

00:41:41.600 tell us

00:41:41.980 about

00:41:42.160 that

00:41:42.360 problem

00:41:42.700 of

00:41:42.820 feeling

00:41:43.020 aimless

00:41:43.600 after

00:41:44.260 achieving

00:41:44.720 all

00:41:44.960 that

00:41:45.100 you've

00:41:45.260 done

00:41:45.520 yeah

00:41:46.660 and

00:41:46.820 I

00:41:46.940 think

00:41:47.320 this

00:41:47.700 is

00:41:47.840 sort

00:41:48.040 of

00:41:48.100 the

00:41:48.180 other

00:41:48.340 side

00:41:48.760 of

00:41:48.880 the

00:41:49.000 John

00:41:49.180 Stuart

00:41:49.460 Mill

00:41:49.680 problem

00:41:50.380 and

00:41:50.720 it

00:41:51.140 applies

00:41:51.460 even

00:41:51.720 if

00:41:51.940 you

00:41:52.920 think

00:41:53.080 I

00:41:53.180 haven't

00:41:53.340 done

00:41:53.460 everything

00:41:53.820 you've

00:41:54.060 still

00:41:54.140 got

00:41:54.260 things

00:41:54.480 to

00:41:54.660 do

00:41:54.900 that

00:41:55.600 there's

00:41:55.840 this

00:41:55.960 way

00:41:56.180 you

00:41:56.320 can

00:41:56.480 feel

00:41:57.140 about

00:41:57.440 them

00:41:57.660 that

00:41:57.980 it's

00:41:58.100 just

00:41:58.280 one

00:41:58.580 more

00:41:59.000 check

00:41:59.840 box

00:42:00.140 after

00:42:00.440 another

00:42:00.760 and

00:42:00.980 that

00:42:01.080 was

00:42:01.200 certainly

00:42:01.400 how

00:42:01.560 I

00:42:01.720 was

00:42:01.860 feeling

00:42:02.120 was

00:42:02.360 I

00:42:03.100 got

00:42:03.220 to

00:42:03.280 write

00:42:03.420 this

00:42:03.580 paper

00:42:03.920 then

00:42:04.540 what

00:42:04.780 I

00:42:05.240 guess

00:42:05.400 I

00:42:05.480 read

00:42:05.580 another

00:42:05.780 paper

00:42:06.080 I

00:42:06.340 got

00:42:06.420 to

00:42:06.500 teach

00:42:06.680 this

00:42:06.840 class

00:42:07.280 great

00:42:07.880 I

00:42:08.380 care

00:42:08.560 about

00:42:08.700 the

00:42:08.820 students

00:42:09.100 so

00:42:09.340 that's

00:42:09.520 important

00:42:09.880 check

00:42:10.740 box

00:42:11.060 now

00:42:11.380 I'll

00:42:11.500 teach

00:42:11.660 another

00:42:11.880 class

00:42:12.220 so

00:42:12.580 even

00:42:12.780 the

00:42:12.940 things

00:42:13.100 I

00:42:13.260 did

00:42:13.480 have

00:42:13.720 to

00:42:13.860 do

00:42:14.120 felt

00:42:14.980 like

00:42:15.440 I

00:42:15.580 was

00:42:15.720 just

00:42:15.940 checking

00:42:16.320 them

00:42:16.500 off

00:42:16.740 I

00:42:17.180 think

00:42:27.660 are

00:42:28.060 ones

00:42:28.300 that

00:42:28.480 aim

00:42:28.720 at

00:42:28.840 an

00:42:28.960 end

00:42:29.160 state

00:42:29.460 so

00:42:29.700 it

00:42:29.820 might

00:42:29.960 be

00:42:30.180 teaching

00:42:30.680 this

00:42:30.880 class

00:42:31.260 or

00:42:31.680 getting

00:42:32.140 a

00:42:32.300 promotion

00:42:32.640 or

00:42:33.260 getting

00:42:33.660 married

00:42:34.060 or

00:42:34.580 having

00:42:35.040 a

00:42:35.220 kid

00:42:35.420 where

00:42:35.940 there's

00:42:36.700 a

00:42:36.760 final

00:42:37.720 point

00:42:38.080 at which

00:42:38.460 you're

00:42:38.620 done

00:42:38.820 and

00:42:39.580 the

00:42:39.680 thing

00:42:39.800 about

00:42:40.020 TELIC

00:42:40.460 activities

00:42:41.000 is

00:42:42.140 that

00:42:42.460 while

00:42:43.060 you're

00:42:43.220 engaged

00:42:43.560 with

00:42:43.700 them

00:42:43.800 you're

00:42:43.960 not

00:42:44.080 there

00:42:44.280 yet

00:42:44.500 and

00:42:45.140 as

00:42:45.320 soon

00:42:45.540 as

00:42:45.700 you're

00:42:45.840 there

00:42:46.080 you're

00:42:46.560 done

00:42:46.740 it's

00:42:47.000 in

00:42:47.100 the

00:42:47.200 past

00:42:47.580 worse

00:42:49.020 than

00:42:49.240 that

00:42:49.500 what

00:42:49.940 you're

00:42:50.160 doing

00:42:50.420 when

00:42:50.580 you

00:42:50.700 engage

00:42:51.080 with

00:42:51.240 them

00:42:51.440 is

00:42:52.120 taking

00:42:52.400 this

00:42:52.580 thing

00:42:52.740 that

00:42:52.920 is

00:42:53.240 giving

00:42:53.420 meaning

00:42:53.660 to

00:42:53.820 your

00:42:53.940 life

00:42:54.200 and

00:42:54.700 you're

00:42:54.820 trying

00:42:54.900 to

00:42:55.000 finish

00:42:55.220 it

00:42:55.420 so

00:42:55.600 you're

00:42:55.740 taking

00:42:55.940 something

00:42:56.160 that

00:42:56.340 matters

00:42:56.620 and

00:42:56.800 you're

00:42:56.940 trying

00:42:57.060 to

00:42:57.140 extinguish

00:42:57.600 it

00:42:57.760 it's

00:42:57.860 like

00:42:57.980 you're

00:42:58.100 saying

00:42:58.420 this

00:42:59.100 really

00:42:59.320 is

00:42:59.500 important

00:42:59.860 I'll

00:43:00.340 try

00:43:00.540 and 1.00

00:43:00.660 kill 1.00

00:43:00.860 it 1.00

00:43:01.120 I'll

00:43:01.400 try

00:43:01.520 and

00:43:01.640 get

00:43:01.780 it

00:43:01.880 out

00:43:01.980 of

00:43:02.060 my

00:43:02.180 life

00:43:02.460 and

00:43:03.220 so

00:43:03.340 I

00:43:03.480 think

00:43:03.680 often

00:43:04.480 what's

00:43:04.760 going

00:43:04.960 on

00:43:05.320 with

00:43:05.540 this

00:43:05.720 feeling

00:43:06.140 of

00:43:06.320 emptiness

00:43:06.760 in

00:43:07.040 the

00:43:07.160 present

00:43:20.580 is

00:43:20.760 always

00:43:21.020 in

00:43:21.180 the

00:43:21.260 future

00:43:21.560 or

00:43:21.900 in

00:43:22.020 the

00:43:22.120 past

00:43:22.400 the

00:43:22.640 present

00:43:22.980 is

00:43:23.140 sort

00:43:23.300 of

00:43:23.380 empty

00:43:23.640 and

00:43:23.820 the

00:43:23.940 present

00:43:24.160 is

00:43:24.340 just

00:43:24.600 trying

00:43:25.180 to

00:43:25.280 get

00:43:25.400 it

00:43:25.520 done

00:43:25.700 trying

00:43:25.960 to

00:43:26.040 get

00:43:26.160 rid

00:43:26.440 of

00:43:26.560 it

00:43:26.740 and

00:43:27.560 that

00:43:27.780 kind

00:43:28.000 of

00:43:28.120 emptiness

00:43:28.520 I

00:43:29.000 think

00:43:29.240 was

00:43:29.460 the

00:43:29.660 thing

00:43:30.100 that

00:43:30.240 was

00:43:30.400 really

00:43:30.940 troubling

00:43:31.860 me

00:43:32.140 part

00:43:32.420 of

00:43:32.520 what

00:43:32.620 was

00:43:32.760 really

00:43:32.980 troubling

00:43:33.280 me

00:43:33.640 but

00:43:34.740 I

00:43:35.280 think

00:43:35.400 there

00:43:35.540 is

00:43:35.660 good

00:43:35.840 news

00:43:36.020 there

00:43:36.280 and

00:43:36.520 this

00:43:36.800 comes

00:43:37.160 from

00:43:37.280 the

00:43:37.400 other

00:43:37.560 side

00:43:37.840 of

00:43:37.940 the

00:43:38.060 philosophical

00:43:38.580 distinction

00:43:39.240 so

00:43:39.580 not

00:43:50.580 as

00:43:50.760 well

00:43:50.960 as

00:43:51.180 making

00:43:51.680 your

00:43:51.880 kids

00:43:52.080 dinner

00:43:52.400 there's

00:43:53.020 parenting

00:43:53.400 and

00:43:54.080 parenting

00:43:54.440 eventually

00:43:55.180 you'll

00:43:55.380 stop

00:43:55.680 eventually

00:43:56.040 you'll 0.99

00:43:56.240 die 0.99

00:43:56.480 eventually 1.00

00:43:56.800 your

00:43:56.960 kids

00:43:57.100 leave

00:43:57.280 home

00:43:57.440 or

00:43:57.540 whatever

00:43:57.740 but

00:43:57.900 there

00:43:58.040 isn't

00:43:58.420 there's

00:43:58.840 no

00:43:58.940 final

00:43:59.340 point

00:43:59.680 to

00:43:59.800 which

00:43:59.980 you're

00:44:00.120 like

00:44:00.280 I

00:44:00.460 parented

00:44:00.980 that's

00:44:01.520 done

00:44:01.780 and

00:44:02.240 the

00:44:02.360 same

00:44:02.500 is

00:44:02.620 true

00:44:02.800 of

00:44:02.960 thinking

00:44:03.280 about

00:44:03.480 philosophy

00:44:03.880 the

00:44:04.080 same

00:44:04.300 is

00:44:04.460 true

00:44:04.700 of

00:44:04.960 most

00:44:05.440 of

00:44:05.560 the

00:44:05.640 activities

00:44:06.040 that

00:44:06.240 make

00:44:06.440 up

00:44:06.600 our

00:44:06.760 meaningful

00:44:07.100 relationships

00:44:07.860 and

00:44:08.480 the

00:44:08.620 same

00:44:08.820 is

00:44:09.000 true

00:44:09.360 of

00:44:09.780 but

00:44:10.160 most

00:44:10.600 of

00:44:10.720 the

00:44:10.820 time

00:44:11.080 whatever

00:44:11.780 we're

00:44:12.060 doing

00:44:12.480 even

00:44:13.380 when

00:44:13.520 it's

00:44:13.680 a

00:44:13.780 telec

00:44:14.020 activity

00:44:14.460 there's

00:44:15.100 a

00:44:15.180 kind

00:44:15.320 of

00:44:15.460 telec

00:44:15.920 activity

00:44:16.280 we're

00:44:16.540 engaging

00:44:16.900 in

00:44:17.060 at

00:44:17.160 the

00:44:17.260 same

00:44:17.480 time

00:44:17.940 and

00:44:18.400 so

00:44:18.680 the

00:44:20.220 thing

00:44:20.480 about

00:44:20.660 telec

00:44:21.220 activities

00:44:21.680 is

00:44:22.220 they

00:44:23.040 don't

00:44:23.280 exhaust

00:44:23.640 themselves

00:44:24.040 you're

00:44:24.240 not

00:44:24.340 trying

00:44:24.500 to

00:44:25.000 by

00:44:25.340 engaging

00:44:25.780 in

00:44:25.960 them

00:44:26.080 you're

00:44:26.240 not

00:44:26.360 sort

00:44:26.480 of

00:44:26.540 extinguishing

00:44:27.160 them

00:44:27.440 and

00:44:27.880 they

00:44:28.000 don't

00:44:28.240 have

00:44:28.400 this

00:44:28.580 problem

00:44:29.000 that

00:44:29.360 satisfaction

00:44:29.940 is

00:44:30.240 always

00:44:30.620 sort

00:44:31.420 of

00:44:31.780 mortgage

00:44:32.240 to

00:44:32.460 the

00:44:32.580 future

00:44:32.880 or

00:44:33.120 consigned

00:44:33.640 to

00:44:33.800 the

00:44:33.960 past

00:44:34.440 if

00:44:35.420 what

00:44:35.780 you

00:44:35.900 want

00:44:36.160 to

00:44:36.300 be

00:44:36.420 doing

00:44:36.660 is

00:44:36.900 spending

00:44:37.440 time

00:44:37.700 with

00:44:37.840 your

00:44:37.980 friends

00:44:38.340 or

00:44:38.700 listening

00:44:39.300 to

00:44:39.480 music

00:44:39.820 and

00:44:40.220 that's

00:44:40.380 what

00:44:40.460 you're

00:44:40.600 doing

00:44:40.900 well

00:44:41.500 it's

00:44:42.540 happening

00:44:43.000 right

00:44:43.240 now

00:44:43.520 there's

00:44:43.760 no

00:44:43.960 sort

00:44:44.580 of

00:44:44.760 looking

00:44:45.280 forward

00:44:45.580 to

00:44:45.740 the

00:44:45.860 future

00:44:46.200 or

00:44:46.700 it's

00:44:46.980 already

00:44:47.300 over

00:44:47.820 to

00:44:48.500 worry

00:44:48.740 about

00:44:49.060 and

00:44:49.640 so

00:44:49.720 I

00:44:49.840 think

00:44:50.000 one

00:44:50.840 kind

00:44:51.040 of

00:44:51.240 problem

00:44:51.900 is

00:44:52.640 being

00:44:53.040 so

00:44:54.000 type

00:44:54.600 A

00:44:54.880 project

00:44:55.360 oriented

00:44:55.760 that the

00:44:56.660 present

00:44:56.920 feels

00:44:57.220 empty

00:44:57.520 and

00:44:57.760 one

00:44:57.940 kind

00:44:58.260 of

00:44:58.400 solution

00:44:58.800 is

00:44:59.900 to

00:45:03.640 activities

00:45:04.380 that

00:45:05.500 you

00:45:05.680 can

00:45:05.880 attach

00:45:06.420 value

00:45:07.060 to

00:45:07.300 and

00:45:07.440 find

00:45:07.720 value

00:45:08.120 in

00:45:08.500 and

00:45:08.680 really

00:45:08.920 invest

00:45:09.320 in

00:45:09.540 and

00:45:10.460 they

00:45:11.140 will

00:45:11.360 be

00:45:11.500 the

00:45:11.640 kinds

00:45:11.940 of

00:45:12.080 activities

00:45:12.520 that

00:45:12.820 will

00:45:13.100 give

00:45:14.180 meaning

00:45:15.280 to

00:45:15.520 the

00:45:15.660 present

00:45:16.080 in a

00:45:17.080 way

00:45:17.380 that

00:45:17.700 we

00:45:18.600 often

00:45:18.940 lose

00:45:19.660 sight

00:45:20.340 of

00:45:20.560 as

00:45:20.820 we

00:45:20.960 become

00:45:21.420 endlessly

00:45:22.240 striving

00:45:22.960 by the

00:45:23.920 time

00:45:24.240 we're

00:45:24.580 35

00:45:25.400 40

00:45:25.840 and

00:45:26.440 I

00:45:26.580 think

00:45:26.860 part

00:45:27.080 of

00:45:27.160 what

00:45:27.280 happened

00:45:27.500 to

00:45:27.680 me

00:45:27.820 was

00:45:28.020 that

00:45:28.220 I'd

00:45:28.480 been

00:45:28.640 striving

00:45:29.060 and

00:45:29.260 had

00:45:29.400 no

00:45:29.600 time

00:45:29.940 to

00:45:31.000 think

00:45:31.240 about

00:45:31.440 that

00:45:31.640 and

00:45:31.920 the

00:45:32.040 moment

00:45:32.260 I

00:45:32.400 stepped

00:45:32.680 back

00:45:32.900 and

00:45:33.080 thought

00:45:33.380 what

00:45:34.520 am I

00:45:35.420 doing

00:45:35.640 with

00:45:35.760 my

00:45:35.880 life

00:45:36.080 it's

00:45:36.220 just

00:45:36.360 one

00:45:36.580 project

00:45:36.940 after

00:45:37.240 another

00:45:37.500 that

00:45:38.060 was

00:45:38.220 when

00:45:38.380 the

00:45:38.520 crisis

00:45:38.820 hit

00:45:39.180 and

00:45:39.520 this

00:45:39.880 shift

00:45:40.180 towards

00:45:40.800 a

00:45:41.600 telec

00:45:41.880 activities

00:45:42.320 was

00:45:42.620 really

00:45:42.980 necessary

00:45:43.880 this

00:45:45.040 reminds

00:45:45.820 me

00:45:46.140 of

00:45:46.660 Jung

00:45:46.920 picked

00:45:47.340 up

00:45:47.500 on

00:45:47.640 this

00:45:47.820 he

00:45:47.940 said

00:45:48.140 there

00:45:48.320 was

00:45:48.620 two

00:45:49.780 halves

00:45:50.340 of

00:45:50.800 a

00:45:50.940 person's

00:45:51.300 life

00:45:51.600 there's

00:45:51.860 the

00:45:52.040 first

00:45:52.280 half

00:45:52.500 of

00:45:52.620 life

00:45:52.800 where

00:45:52.940 it's

00:45:53.020 very

00:45:53.220 telec

00:45:53.640 you're

00:45:54.060 doing

00:45:54.580 checking

00:45:55.160 out

00:45:55.300 the

00:45:55.440 boxes

00:45:55.780 the

00:45:56.020 second

00:45:56.300 half

00:45:56.580 of

00:45:56.760 life

00:45:57.060 is

00:45:57.300 18

00:45:57.580 you're

00:45:57.820 trying

00:45:57.940 to

00:45:58.180 figure

00:45:58.960 out

00:45:59.160 what

00:45:59.320 this

00:45:59.500 all

00:45:59.660 means

00:46:00.000 and

00:46:00.160 we've

00:46:01.060 had

00:46:01.360 father

00:46:02.040 Richard

00:46:02.360 Rohr

00:46:02.620 on

00:46:02.720 the

00:46:02.820 podcast

00:46:03.340 who

00:46:04.060 picked

00:46:04.460 up

00:46:04.580 this

00:46:04.720 Jungian

00:46:05.040 idea

00:46:05.480 and

00:46:06.040 he

00:46:06.200 talks

00:46:06.400 about

00:46:06.520 there's

00:46:06.640 like

00:46:06.740 a

00:46:06.840 first

00:46:07.160 half

00:46:08.020 of

00:46:08.140 life

00:46:08.420 mode

00:46:08.940 where

00:46:09.120 you're

00:46:09.340 the

00:46:09.620 whole

00:46:09.780 point

00:46:10.040 of

00:46:10.160 that

00:46:10.360 is

00:46:10.540 to

00:46:10.720 build

00:46:10.980 the

00:46:11.160 box

00:46:11.520 of

00:46:11.780 your

00:46:11.880 life

00:46:12.200 right

00:46:12.380 so

00:46:12.480 you're

00:46:12.600 checking

00:46:12.800 off

00:46:12.980 the

00:46:13.120 things

00:46:13.500 building

00:46:13.840 a

00:46:14.040 family

00:46:14.420 getting

00:46:14.760 a

00:46:14.940 career

00:46:15.140 going

00:46:15.560 and

00:46:16.180 he

00:46:16.380 says

00:46:16.760 usually

00:46:17.260 there's

00:46:17.560 something

00:46:17.820 that

00:46:18.060 knocks

00:46:18.400 you 0.99

00:46:18.560 off

00:46:18.920 into

00:46:19.820 the

00:46:20.080 second

00:46:20.380 half

00:46:20.680 of

00:46:20.840 life

00:46:21.160 and

00:46:21.580 then

00:46:21.780 that's

00:46:22.140 when

00:46:22.240 you

00:46:22.340 start

00:46:22.520 filling

00:46:22.880 that

00:46:23.120 box

00:46:23.540 that

00:46:23.780 you've

00:46:24.100 you've

00:46:24.420 made

00:46:24.600 in

00:46:24.680 that

00:46:24.800 first

00:46:25.060 half

00:46:25.280 of

00:46:25.400 life

00:46:25.640 and

00:46:26.320 he

00:46:26.460 makes

00:46:26.640 that

00:46:26.780 point

00:46:26.980 about

00:46:27.220 trying

00:46:27.520 to

00:46:27.680 find

00:46:28.080 the

00:46:28.440 a

00:46:28.740 telic

00:46:29.240 activity

00:46:30.300 and

00:46:30.820 the

00:46:30.980 telic

00:46:31.440 activities

00:46:32.020 and

00:46:32.520 he's

00:46:32.860 got

00:46:32.960 this

00:46:33.100 great

00:46:33.320 phrase

00:46:33.560 he

00:46:33.720 says

00:46:34.040 you

00:46:34.720 need

00:46:34.860 to

00:46:35.000 start

00:46:35.360 thinking

00:46:36.500 about

00:46:36.860 what

00:46:37.300 we're

00:46:37.520 really

00:46:37.880 doing

00:46:38.500 when

00:46:39.100 we're

00:46:46.180 like

00:46:46.620 you're

00:46:46.740 some

00:46:46.840 sort

00:46:47.000 of

00:46:47.100 youth

00:46:47.300 leader

00:46:47.580 or

00:46:47.760 something

00:46:47.940 I

00:46:48.100 don't

00:46:48.200 know

00:46:48.360 coach

00:46:48.720 when

00:46:49.500 you're

00:46:49.620 in

00:46:49.680 that

00:46:49.800 first

00:46:50.080 half

00:46:50.340 of

00:46:50.460 life

00:46:50.700 when

00:46:50.860 you're

00:46:51.060 very

00:46:51.220 telic

00:46:51.560 you're

00:46:51.760 just

00:46:51.860 concerned

00:46:52.500 like

00:46:52.680 what

00:46:52.800 are

00:46:52.880 the

00:46:52.980 outcomes

00:46:53.440 are

00:46:53.640 these

00:46:54.380 kids

00:46:54.820 making

00:46:55.080 progress

00:46:55.580 are we

00:46:56.060 winning

00:46:56.440 football

00:46:56.880 games

00:46:57.280 are we

00:46:57.520 blah

00:46:57.720 blah

00:46:57.820 blah

00:46:57.940 blah

00:46:58.160 the

00:46:58.760 second

00:46:59.160 half

00:46:59.520 would

00:46:59.660 be

00:46:59.780 like

00:46:59.980 what

00:47:00.140 am I

00:47:00.420 doing

00:47:00.960 here

00:47:01.160 what

00:47:01.440 is

00:47:01.620 the

00:47:01.880 big

00:47:02.300 thing

00:47:02.460 I'm

00:47:02.580 trying

00:47:02.720 to develop

00:47:03.520 people

00:47:04.940 into

00:47:05.260 functioning

00:47:06.020 moral

00:47:06.400 adults

00:47:06.900 so I'm

00:47:07.200 going

00:47:07.280 to

00:47:07.400 focus

00:47:07.940 on

00:47:08.200 that

00:47:08.500 so

00:47:08.740 you're

00:47:08.940 looking

00:47:09.240 for

00:47:09.400 the

00:47:09.540 telic

00:47:09.960 activity

00:47:11.300 is

00:47:11.600 that

00:47:11.840 am I

00:47:12.240 hitting

00:47:12.380 that

00:47:12.500 right

00:47:12.680 no

00:47:13.380 that's

00:47:13.660 exactly

00:47:13.920 right

00:47:14.280 I love

00:47:15.320 that

00:47:15.460 yeah

00:47:15.640 and

00:47:15.820 I mean

00:47:16.400 one

00:47:16.760 speculative

00:47:17.260 thought

00:47:17.560 that goes

00:47:17.900 back to

00:47:18.260 your

00:47:18.460 question

00:47:18.980 earlier

00:47:19.380 about

00:47:19.820 the

00:47:20.360 social

00:47:20.660 science

00:47:21.260 of

00:47:21.440 aging

00:47:21.680 is

00:47:21.980 why

00:47:23.040 does

00:47:23.880 the

00:47:24.200 U

00:47:24.420 curve

00:47:24.860 go

00:47:25.720 upwards

00:47:26.180 in

00:47:27.040 older

00:47:27.280 age

00:47:27.740 and

00:47:28.120 one

00:47:28.280 thought

00:47:28.440 is

00:47:28.620 the

00:47:28.900 people

00:47:29.260 people

00:47:29.860 who

00:47:30.040 make

00:47:30.300 it

00:47:30.440 into

00:47:30.720 older

00:47:31.160 age

00:47:31.500 have

00:47:32.920 to

00:47:33.080 adjust

00:47:33.520 to

00:47:33.900 this

00:47:34.080 they

00:47:34.220 have

00:47:34.500 to

00:47:34.640 become

00:47:34.900 more

00:47:35.140 at

00:47:35.340 like

00:47:35.620 they're

00:47:36.100 on

00:47:36.200 the

00:47:36.320 other

00:47:36.500 they're

00:47:37.000 sort

00:47:37.120 of

00:47:37.200 coming

00:47:37.440 through

00:47:37.860 not

00:47:38.200 all

00:47:38.400 of

00:47:38.500 them

00:47:38.640 and

00:47:38.760 not

00:47:38.880 all

00:47:39.040 to

00:47:39.140 the

00:47:39.260 same

00:47:39.420 degree

00:47:39.740 but

00:47:40.140 they're

00:47:40.260 coming

00:47:40.420 through

00:47:40.600 the

00:47:40.740 shift

00:47:41.000 in

00:47:41.140 which

00:47:41.240 you

00:47:41.360 think

00:47:41.640 it's

00:47:42.660 not

00:47:42.860 going

00:47:43.100 to

00:47:43.120 be

00:47:43.240 about

00:47:43.440 projects

00:47:43.880 anymore

00:47:44.220 it's

00:47:44.500 about

00:47:44.760 the

00:47:44.960 process

00:47:45.440 of

00:47:45.600 what

00:47:45.700 I'm

00:47:45.880 doing

00:47:46.220 and

00:47:46.500 finding

00:47:46.800 value

00:47:47.180 in

00:47:47.340 that

00:47:47.560 and

00:47:47.920 that's

00:47:48.160 how

00:47:48.400 people

00:47:48.740 sort

00:47:48.980 of

00:47:49.120 what's

00:47:49.920 going

00:47:50.060 on

00:47:50.200 when

00:47:50.320 people

00:47:50.500 get

00:47:50.660 lifted

00:47:51.000 out

00:47:51.220 of

00:47:51.300 the

00:47:51.420 U

00:47:51.580 curve

00:47:51.840 they're

00:47:52.280 making

00:47:52.520 the

00:47:52.700 transition

00:47:53.100 that

00:47:53.340 you're

00:47:53.660 describing

00:47:54.320 and

00:47:54.540 coming

00:47:54.900 out

00:47:55.080 on

00:47:55.180 the

00:47:55.280 other

00:47:55.440 side

00:47:55.700 of

00:47:55.800 it

00:47:55.920 and

00:47:56.280 I

00:47:56.400 think

00:47:56.580 that

00:47:56.760 is

00:47:56.940 a

00:47:57.300 kind

00:47:58.120 of

00:47:58.260 deep

00:47:58.760 truth

00:47:59.180 about

00:47:59.580 what

00:48:00.640 it

00:48:00.800 takes

00:48:01.060 to

00:48:01.180 adjust

00:48:01.440 to

00:48:01.560 time

00:48:01.780 I

00:48:20.660 never

00:48:20.900 have

00:48:21.800 to

00:48:21.980 they

00:48:22.400 would

00:48:22.520 sort

00:48:22.640 of

00:48:22.760 already

00:48:23.300 be

00:48:23.540 starting

00:48:23.920 this

00:48:24.160 process

00:48:24.640 of

00:48:24.820 shifting

00:48:25.140 earlier

00:48:25.760 in

00:48:25.920 life

00:48:26.100 so

00:48:26.300 it's

00:48:26.740 a

00:48:26.840 real

00:48:26.960 question

00:48:27.320 like

00:48:27.500 whether

00:48:28.080 you

00:48:28.280 need

00:48:28.620 to

00:48:28.960 delay

00:48:29.440 this

00:48:29.780 sort

00:48:29.920 of

00:48:30.000 shift

00:48:30.480 in

00:48:30.680 orientation

00:48:31.200 or

00:48:31.400 whether

00:48:31.540 there's

00:48:31.720 a

00:48:31.840 way

00:48:31.980 to

00:48:32.140 integrate

00:48:32.540 it

00:48:32.840 throughout

00:48:33.640 your

00:48:33.860 life

00:48:34.200 even

00:48:34.980 into

00:48:35.220 your

00:48:35.400 youth

00:48:35.740 I

00:48:36.300 think

00:48:36.440 that's

00:48:37.140 a

00:48:37.340 open

00:48:37.900 ended

00:48:38.160 question

00:48:38.760 so

00:48:39.580 the

00:48:40.180 argument

00:48:40.360 you're

00:48:40.500 making

00:48:40.640 here

00:48:40.840 is

00:48:40.980 as

00:48:41.140 you

00:48:41.220 get

00:48:41.340 older

00:48:41.620 start

00:48:42.020 shifting

00:48:42.380 from

00:48:42.600 those

00:48:42.760 projects

00:48:43.240 to

00:48:43.540 just

00:48:43.760 focusing

00:48:44.100 on

00:48:44.220 the

00:48:44.340 process

00:48:44.800 but

00:48:45.180 I

00:48:45.340 mean

00:48:45.480 it

00:48:45.700 sounds

00:48:45.860 like

00:48:46.000 you're

00:48:46.120 not

00:48:46.300 saying

00:48:46.820 completely

00:48:47.440 eliminate

00:48:47.960 all your

00:48:48.540 striving

00:48:48.960 in

00:48:49.120 middle

00:48:49.320 age

00:48:49.500 I

00:48:49.620 mean

00:48:49.780 you're

00:48:50.660 writing

00:48:51.080 books

00:48:51.480 you're

00:48:51.720 doing

00:48:51.940 things

00:48:52.340 that

00:48:52.500 are

00:48:52.700 telic

00:48:53.420 yeah

00:48:53.720 yeah

00:48:54.240 I mean

00:48:54.620 one thing

00:48:55.280 to say

00:48:55.600 there's

00:48:55.820 two

00:48:55.940 things

00:48:56.120 to say

00:48:56.340 about

00:48:56.460 that

00:48:56.580 I

00:48:56.660 suppose

00:48:56.800 one

00:48:57.140 is

00:48:57.380 I

00:48:58.120 mean

00:48:58.300 we're

00:48:58.880 always

00:48:59.200 doing

00:48:59.420 both

00:48:59.740 we're

00:49:00.000 always

00:49:00.640 attempting

00:49:01.980 to

00:49:02.220 finish

00:49:02.560 things

00:49:02.880 and the

00:49:03.120 question

00:49:03.320 is

00:49:03.480 never

00:49:03.760 whether

00:49:04.840 we

00:49:05.060 can

00:49:05.220 get

00:49:05.400 rid

00:49:05.620 of

00:49:05.740 projects

00:49:06.120 from

00:49:06.260 our

00:49:06.400 lives

00:49:06.720 it's

00:49:07.560 it's

00:49:07.860 sort

00:49:07.980 of

00:49:08.100 where

00:49:08.460 our

00:49:08.740 focus

00:49:09.100 is

00:49:09.400 so

00:49:09.660 someone's

00:49:10.260 writing

00:49:10.500 a book

00:49:10.880 you could

00:49:11.180 say

00:49:11.520 what do

00:49:12.040 you care

00:49:12.280 about

00:49:12.520 do you

00:49:12.840 care

00:49:13.220 about

00:49:13.980 thinking

00:49:14.300 about

00:49:14.520 these

00:49:14.700 questions

00:49:15.180 do you

00:49:16.140 care

00:49:16.440 about

00:49:16.740 getting

00:49:17.080 the

00:49:17.220 book

00:49:17.340 published

00:49:17.780 or

00:49:18.360 do

00:49:18.440 you

00:49:18.540 care

00:49:18.700 about

00:49:18.900 both

00:49:19.300 and

00:49:19.820 you

00:49:20.360 could

00:49:20.600 write

00:49:21.020 a

00:49:21.140 book

00:49:21.360 and

00:49:21.820 say

00:49:22.100 that

00:49:22.540 was

00:49:22.640 just

00:49:22.780 a

00:49:22.960 side

00:49:23.220 effect

00:49:23.500 of

00:49:23.640 what

00:49:23.740 I

00:49:23.880 wanted

00:49:24.060 I

00:49:24.220 wanted

00:49:24.540 to

00:49:24.660 think

00:49:24.840 about

00:49:24.980 these

00:49:25.160 questions

00:49:25.620 and

00:49:35.060 I

00:49:37.880 think

00:49:37.920 realistically

00:49:38.420 most

00:49:38.740 of

00:49:38.920 us

00:49:39.200 rightly

00:49:40.280 care

00:49:40.760 about

00:49:41.080 the

00:49:41.560 outcome

00:49:41.920 so

00:49:42.100 we

00:49:42.280 do

00:49:42.580 care

00:49:42.880 if

00:49:43.020 you're

00:49:43.140 a

00:49:43.240 doctor

00:49:43.520 you

00:49:44.040 care

00:49:44.580 that

00:49:44.720 your

00:49:44.860 patient

00:49:45.140 lives

00:49:45.500 but

00:49:46.600 it

00:49:46.680 also

00:49:46.920 matters

00:49:47.240 that

00:49:47.480 you're

00:49:48.120 being

00:49:49.000 a

00:49:49.140 good

00:49:49.280 doctor

00:49:49.560 and

00:49:50.040 taking

00:49:50.500 care

00:49:50.800 of

00:49:50.940 them

00:49:51.080 and

00:49:51.520 that

00:49:51.640 will

00:49:51.720 be

00:49:51.820 valuable

00:49:52.140 even

00:49:52.440 if

00:49:52.740 this

00:49:53.660 patient

00:49:53.940 didn't

00:49:54.180 make

00:49:54.380 it

00:49:54.540 so

00:49:55.000 usually

00:49:55.840 I

00:49:56.020 think

00:49:56.140 the

00:49:56.280 right

00:49:56.460 attitude

00:49:56.780 is

00:49:57.140 both

00:49:57.820 sides

00:49:58.120 of

00:49:58.220 this

00:49:58.360 matter

00:49:58.600 the

00:49:58.800 telix

00:49:59.100 side

00:49:59.380 and

00:49:59.600 the

00:49:59.740 telix

00:50:00.220 side

00:50:00.540 and

00:50:01.040 it's

00:50:01.340 a

00:50:01.440 matter

00:50:01.600 of

00:50:01.760 balancing

00:50:02.380 the

00:50:02.660 focus

00:50:03.160 between

00:50:03.580 them

00:50:03.840 yeah

00:50:04.500 it

00:50:04.640 sounds

00:50:04.800 like

00:50:04.960 be

00:50:05.160 telix

00:50:05.600 but

00:50:05.780 don't

00:50:05.940 be

00:50:06.080 too

00:50:06.300 graspy

00:50:06.760 about

00:50:07.040 it

00:50:07.300 that

00:50:07.960 is

00:50:08.120 right

00:50:08.400 right

00:50:08.700 don't

00:50:09.180 subordinate

00:50:10.640 the value

00:50:11.940 of what

00:50:12.280 you're

00:50:12.460 doing

00:50:12.840 to the

00:50:13.580 product

00:50:14.100 of what

00:50:14.820 you're

00:50:14.960 doing

00:50:15.260 right

00:50:16.020 well

00:50:16.700 this

00:50:17.140 has

00:50:17.260 been

00:50:17.340 a

00:50:17.440 great

00:50:17.540 conversation

00:50:18.020 where

00:50:18.260 people

00:50:18.480 go

00:50:18.580 to

00:50:18.660 learn

00:50:18.800 more

00:50:18.920 about

00:50:19.100 your

00:50:19.220 book

00:50:19.440 well

00:50:20.500 so

00:50:20.720 I

00:50:21.140 have

00:50:21.380 a

00:50:21.660 website

00:50:22.420 if

00:50:22.620 you

00:50:22.720 google

00:50:22.980 Kieran

00:50:23.320 set

00:50:23.580 you can

00:50:23.960 find

00:50:24.180 me

00:50:24.320 I'm

00:50:24.540 on

00:50:24.900 twitter

00:50:25.160 I

00:50:26.060 also

00:50:27.280 have

00:50:27.420 a

00:50:27.540 podcast

00:50:27.860 where

00:50:28.200 I

00:50:28.320 interview

00:50:28.760 philosophers

00:50:29.740 a little

00:50:30.540 bit

00:50:30.660 about

00:50:30.840 philosophy

00:50:31.240 but

00:50:31.440 also

00:50:31.680 about

00:50:31.960 how

00:50:32.220 their

00:50:32.420 lives

00:50:32.780 and

00:50:32.980 philosophy

00:50:33.460 are

00:50:34.300 entangled

00:50:34.840 with

00:50:35.080 one

00:50:35.240 another

00:50:35.500 which

00:50:35.740 is

00:50:35.860 something

00:50:36.080 I'm

00:50:36.300 really

00:50:36.500 interested

00:50:36.840 in

00:50:37.120 and

00:50:37.580 as

00:50:37.700 well

00:50:37.800 as

00:50:37.920 the

00:50:38.120 midlife

00:50:38.680 book

00:50:39.020 I

00:50:39.360 have

00:50:39.460 a

00:50:39.600 new

00:50:39.760 book

00:50:40.040 coming

00:50:40.580 out

00:50:41.000 2022

00:50:42.400 fall

00:50:42.860 2022

00:50:43.380 called

00:50:44.120 Life

00:50:44.900 is

00:50:45.060 Hard

00:50:45.340 coming

00:50:45.720 out

00:50:45.920 from

00:50:46.140 Riverhead

00:50:46.580 Books

00:50:46.940 and

00:50:47.320 so

00:50:47.480 I'm

00:50:47.620 finishing

00:50:47.880 that

00:50:48.160 I'm

00:50:48.380 excited

00:50:48.620 about

00:50:48.860 that

00:50:49.120 and

00:50:49.380 hopefully

00:50:49.860 there'll

00:50:50.080 be

00:50:50.180 news

00:50:50.420 about

00:50:50.640 that

00:50:50.900 soon

00:50:51.340 got

00:50:51.740 those

00:50:51.900 projects

00:50:52.420 he's

00:50:53.220 still

00:50:53.380 doing

00:50:53.560 the

00:50:53.660 project

00:50:53.960 yes

00:50:54.440 all right

00:50:55.120 well

00:50:55.260 Kieran

00:50:55.460 Setia

00:50:55.700 thanks for

00:50:56.020 your time

00:50:56.240 it's been

00:50:56.440 a pleasure

00:50:56.800 thank you

00:50:58.220 so much

00:50:58.620 it was

00:50:58.800 great

00:50:58.960 to talk

00:50:59.260 to you

00:50:59.560 my

00:51:00.260 guest

00:51:00.520 today

00:51:00.620 is

00:51:00.720 Kieran

00:51:00.920 Setia

00:51:01.240 he's

00:51:01.540 the author

00:51:01.860 of the

00:51:02.140 book

00:51:02.320 Midlife

00:51:02.840 a

00:51:03.040 philosophical

00:51:03.500 guide

00:51:03.920 it's

00:51:04.100 available

00:51:04.380 on

00:51:04.580 amazon.com

00:51:05.360 and bookstores

00:51:05.820 everywhere

00:51:06.160 you can

00:51:06.560 find more

00:51:06.860 information

00:51:07.140 about his

00:51:07.400 work

00:51:07.600 at his

00:51:07.880 website

00:51:08.280 ksetia.net

00:51:09.700 also

00:51:10.020 check out

00:51:10.380 our

00:51:19.120 well

00:51:22.460 that wraps

00:51:22.940 up

00:51:23.120 another

00:51:23.420 edition

00:51:23.700 of the

00:51:23.940 a1

00:51:24.200 podcast

00:51:24.560 make sure

00:51:25.160 to check

00:51:25.340 out our

00:51:25.520 website

00:51:25.800 at

00:51:25.940 artofmanliness.com

00:51:26.860 where you

00:51:27.020 can find

00:51:27.140 our podcast

00:51:27.720 archives

00:51:28.240 as well as

00:51:28.560 thousands of

00:51:29.020 articles

00:51:29.280 written over

00:51:29.580 the years

00:51:29.760 about

00:51:29.960 pretty much

00:51:30.400 anything

00:51:30.640 you think

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00:51:34.820 head over

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00:51:36.340 sign up

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00:51:42.820 episodes

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00:51:43.860 and if

00:51:44.420 you haven't

00:51:44.580 done so

00:51:44.840 already

00:51:45.060 I'd appreciate

00:51:45.660 if you take

00:51:45.960 one minute

00:51:46.400 to give us

00:51:46.700 a review

00:51:46.880 on Apple

00:51:47.100 podcast

00:51:47.560 or Spotify

00:51:48.160 it helps

00:51:48.520 that a lot

00:51:48.960 if you've

00:51:49.260 done that

00:51:49.540 already

00:51:49.760 thank you

00:51:50.320 please consider

00:51:51.080 sharing the

00:51:51.480 show with a

00:51:51.820 friend or

00:51:52.120 family member

00:51:52.640 who think

00:51:53.140 we get

00:51:53.340 something out

00:51:53.720 of it

00:51:53.940 as always

00:51:54.500 thank you

00:51:54.740 for the

00:51:54.880 continued

00:51:55.140 support

00:51:55.440 until next

00:51:55.820 time

00:51:56.000 this is

00:51:56.140 Brett

00:51:56.280 McKay

00:51:56.640 remind you

00:51:57.260 I don't

00:51:57.440 listen to

00:51:57.740 the a1

00:51:57.860 podcast

00:51:58.220 but put

00:51:58.920 what you've

00:51:59.380 heard

00:51:59.540 into action

00:52:11.240 yeah

00:52:12.200 yeah

00:52:12.780 yeah

00:52:13.600 yeah

00:52:15.020 yeah

00:52:16.220 yeah

00:52:16.900 yeah

00:52:20.580 yeah

00:52:23.940 yeah

00:52:23.980 yeah

00:52:24.620 yeah

00:52:26.980 yeah

00:52:27.400 yeah

00:52:27.980 yeah

00:52:28.260 yeah

00:52:29.180 yeah

00:52:29.240 yeah

00:52:31.300 yeah

00:52:31.980 yeah

00:52:34.280 yeah

00:52:36.760 yeah

00:52:37.360 yeah

00:52:38.920 yeah

00:52:39.540 yeah

00:52:40.540 yeah

00:52:40.980 yeah

The Art of Manliness - February 07, 2022

How to Shift Out of the Midlife Malaise

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