How to Use Leverage Points to Get Unstuck in Work and Life
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Summary
When people get stuck in their job or personal life, the common response is to either work harder or shrug and accept that that s just the way things are. My guest today has a much better solution to get moving and making progress again. Dan Heath is a bestselling author whose latest book is Reset, How to Change What s Not Working. Today, on the show, Dan shares how to escape from ineffective systems in the inertia of continuing to do things the way they ve always been done by pressing on leverage points.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here. Welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. When people
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get stuck in their job or personal life, the common response is to either work harder or
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shrug and accept that that's just the way things are. My guest today has a much better
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solution to getting moving and making progress again. Dan Heath is a bestselling author whose
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latest book is Reset, How to Change What's Not Working. Today on the show, Dan shares
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how to escape from ineffective systems in the inertia of continuing to do things the
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way they've always been done by pressing on leverage points, places where a little bit
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of effort yields disproportionate returns. Dan explains why you need to go and see the
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work, why meaningful change requires restacking resources, how short, focused bursts of effort
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often accomplish more than prolonged campaigns, how sometimes being inefficient can actually
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make us more effective, and more. Along the way, Dan shares plenty of stories and examples
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that illustrate how to implement these principles into your work, relationships, and
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family. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash leverage.
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All right, Dan Heath, welcome back to the show.
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So last time we had you on, we were talking about your book, Upstream. This was right at
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the start of the pandemic. You got a new book out called Reset, which is all about how to solve
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problems that seem like are unsolvable. And you start out the book talking about how just
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a regular old trip through a Chick-fil-A drive-thru inspired you, basically inspired you to write
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this book. So what happened in that Chick-fil-A drive-thru?
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Yeah, so let me take you back in time. It was pandemic era. I had been sent out to fetch
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Chick-fil-A for the family. I've got two young girls, and they eat about eight different foods,
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and one of them is Chick-fil-A. So I log a lot of visits there. But this particular night,
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it was terrifying what I saw when I arrived, because it was probably the longest line I've
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ever in my life seen at a drive-thru. I mean, a minimum of 50 cars, like spilling out onto the
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feeder road that approached the franchise. And oh, I was just, my soul was crushed because I hate long
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lines. And I started trying to make up lies to tell my wife or why I came back without nuggets and
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eventually put on my big boy pants, got in line. And what happened next completely flipped
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my mindset, because this line was just insanely operationally sophisticated. Like it just
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crept along steadily, like one of those automatic car washes that you get pulled through.
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And by the time I finished, which took less than 15 minutes, I was totally captivated. And I
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resolved to go and investigate this drive-thru later. And a couple of days after that, I just,
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I found that I couldn't stop thinking about this drive-thru because the core mystery was,
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we have this idea that in the business world, when one person's better at something than somebody else,
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like everybody else catches on and copies them and the advantage is eroded away, you know,
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that's competitive markets. And meanwhile, Chick-fil-A is doing the same thing that a dozen or more
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other national franchises are trying to do, but they consistently do it better for a long period
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of time. And why? Like, what is it that they're so good at? And so that became kind of the founding
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question of this book is, is how do you run things better? And then we can get back to Chick-fil-A
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later and kind of geek out about the fast food. But as I got into the research and probably a year in,
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when I realized it's not so much, how do you run things better? That was appealing to me. It was
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more like, how do you get out of a bad equilibrium? Like if you're Arby's and you, you don't do,
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you know, majestic clockworks of drive-thrus and you aspire to that, like, how could you,
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how do you get out of a stuck place and start moving in a positive direction? And that's when
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this book really took off. How is this book a continuation of your previous work in Upstream?
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So Upstream was about how do we get ahead of problems? How do we prevent problems before
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they happen? This book is more about, okay, you're in a mediocre place. It's not even an emergency.
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It's just like, I don't like where I am. I aspire to more. How do I get out of that rut?
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So, so they're different in framing, but I'll tell you one, one point that they have in common
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is a focus on leverage points. Leverage points being, you know, places where a little bit of
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effort yields a disproportionate return. And so in Upstream, we were looking for leverage points,
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like where can you poke in a complex system to try to prevent problems? In this book,
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leverage points is actually one of the most important concepts because it's to say, when you're stuck,
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you can't change everything at once. You've got to kind of place your bets in wise places.
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And so literally half the book is about where do you go looking to find these magical leverage
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points where a little bit goes a long way. And we're going to talk about some of those
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leverage points today, but kind of give us an idea of some of the problems that you encountered as
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you're researching this book that people find themselves in or groups or organizations where it
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seems like, man, this is, this is a big problem. We can't solve this. It's always been this way.
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It'll always be this way. What are some examples?
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The very first story is about the Northwestern Memorial Hospital receiving area. So this is
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the part of the hospital that takes in all the packages coming into the hospital and gets them
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to their ultimate destination. And several years ago, they were in a situation where it was taking
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them an average of three days to get packages delivered within the hospital, which just blew
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my mind, right? A medicine or some surgical gloves might get across the country, you know, via FedEx or
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UPS or whatever. And then to get from like the basement of the hospital to the third floor might
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take another three days. But, but here's what's interesting about this. This equilibrium had
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persisted for so long. It's like there were a bunch of people in the receiving area had been working
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there five, 10, 20, even 30 years. And that was just the norm. You know, they came to work, they worked
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a hard day. None of these people were lazy. None of these people were ignorant. They came to work,
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they did their job, they went home and it took three days. And so after a while, you just kind
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of shrug your shoulders and say, well, that's just what it takes. And, and that's what I mean by
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being stuck. There's a quote that has just stuck in my brain from this healthcare expert named Paul
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Betaldin, who said, every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. And I think
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that is such a brilliant quote because it makes it obvious. Like if you're in this receiving area,
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you're not going to solve this by working a little harder, you know, staying, you know, 20 minutes
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later, you know, working more frantically during the day. Like this is a systemic problem. You have
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unwittingly designed a system that delivers packages in three days. And if you aspire to different and
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better results, you've got to start tinkering with the system. I'm sure everyone who's listening
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to this can probably think of something like that at their own work, where it's like, man, this thing
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is terrible, but we just kind of shrug our shoulders. That's the way it is. And when you
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also talk about it, this doesn't just happen in businesses or in bureaucracies, it can actually,
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this whole getting stuck can happen in a relationship, a marriage or a family.
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Absolutely. And one of the examples I came across was from this couples therapist named Laura Heck.
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And I think this is a great symbol of stuckness. Just imagine her situation. So every day she looks
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at her calendar and it's full of meetings with couples who are at the lowest ebb in their
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relationship. And there is so much that is out of your control as a therapist, right? I mean,
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essentially everything is out of your control, the history of the relationship, their current
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conflicts, you know, their own childhoods, not to mention the fact that you might only have
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their attention for one hour out of, you know, the 168 hours every week. And so in a situation
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like that, your only hope is to look for a leverage point, you know, some little thing
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that can have disproportionately positive consequences. So Laura Heck gave me this
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beautiful example of something that she says she does with her clients. She calls it sticky
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note appreciations. And the idea is that in the bathroom, she knows you're going to brush
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your teeth twice a day. And so you put a post-it notepad right by your toothbrush holder.
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And while you're brushing your teeth, you jot out some kind of compliment for your partner,
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just something quick. You write it out while you're brushing your teeth. You put it on the
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mirror for your partner to find it. You know, so later they come in the bathroom to brush their
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teeth and they see, thanks for taking the time to talk with John about college. You know, he really
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admires you and appreciates your calmness or whatever. And so let's just think about this on a
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couple of levels. So the first level is just who doesn't like to get a compliment in life, right?
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So it's fun to come in the bathroom and see something nice about yourself on the mirror on a
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post-it note. But Laura Heck told me that the real significance of this is actually broader. She said,
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what I'm trying to train these couples to do is to see their partner in a new way. You know,
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that by the time they come to me, they're so used to just seeing the negative, what they don't like,
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what annoys them, what makes them angry. And I need them to take off those glasses and put on a new set
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of glasses where you're scanning for the positive. And so, you know, that just blew my mind when I
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heard it because I thought, what a brilliant way to use just a little bit of time, a little bit of
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effort to do something that has importance beyond that effort. You know, because if you can rewire
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the way you're seeing your partner, like maybe that's the first ray of hope that you can get
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your relationship back to the way it was. Right. It was a leverage point, right? Precisely.
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Little effort, but huge ROI. Let's talk about some more of these leverage points that you discovered
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in the research of this book and helping people in groups get unstuck. One of them, the first one you
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talk about is the leverage point of go and see the work. What do you mean by that? Because I think a
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lot of people, if they're in a system that's stuck, they think, well, of course I know how the thing
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works. I'm in it every day. Why do I need to go and see the work? So this is a phrase, go and see the
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work that I took from Nelson Repenning. He's an MIT professor. And the idea is a lot of times we are
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dealing with our work at some kind of remove. Like if you're a leader, you know, maybe you're managing by
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state financial statements or reports or memos. If you're a principal, you might, you know, stay in
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your home office and, and, and over time we can kind of lose touch with the ground reality of our
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work. So I'll give you an example from Repenning and some colleagues. They told the story of this
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corrugated box factory and the owner of the factory was concerned because paper losses had been higher
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during production than competitors in the industry, which of course costed him money. And so he,
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inspired by Repenning's, you know, imperative to go and see the work, he goes out and he just starts
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walking the halls in the factory and kind of following through production. He notices that
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they have a main corrugator machine, sort of like the most expensive piece of capital equipment in the
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factory that was stopped every day around lunchtime. And he was puzzled by that because the startup time and
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the wind down time ended up wasting some paper. And so he started asking some questions. It turns
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out the history was years prior, there had been some instability in the power provided by the local
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utility. And so the manager at that time had kind of wisely started preemptively unplugging the
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corrugator machine at lunchtime, which was seemingly the time with the most unstable power. And the idea
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was we're going to preserve the lifespan of the machine because it's not good for the machine to have
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this weird erratic power. Well, in the years since, the utility had long since fixed this problem,
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but it had become entrenched as a habit in the factory. Like people had long since forgotten the
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original intent of this. And it just became one of a hundred things that you have to do every day at
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the factory. You know, it's like you unlock the doors, you come in, you flip on the lights. And at
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lunchtime, you shut down the corrugator machine. And that's an example of the kind of thing that you see
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when you go and see the work. And repenting, he says, you know, you might hear a story like that
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and think, well, you know, that's just dumb. Of course, if you are doing dumb stuff, you can find
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it and stamp it out. But his quote stuck with me. He said, if you aren't embarrassed by what you find
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when you go and see the work, you probably aren't looking closely enough. Like all of us probably have
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some equivalent to that corrugator machine story in our work or in our life.
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Yeah. Yeah. So go and see the work. So if you're, you have a problem, you're like,
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what is going on here? Like, why is this even a problem? Going back to the idea, you know,
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the results we get are due to the system that we have. You have to actually go and see, okay,
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what is causing? Like there's something in this, the way things are organized currently,
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that's spitting out this system that it might not be obvious. But if I get down there on the front
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lines and talk to people who are on the front lines, I can actually figure out, oh, this is why
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they're doing it this way. Maybe if we make this small change, we can, we can solve the problem.
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So that's right. I think this is a principle that really is most valuable when there's some
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distance between you and the, the, the actual work product. Like in a relationship, it really
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doesn't make sense. Like how do I go and see the work with my wife? Like we're in a relationship,
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we're in it. But in the factory, you know, it's easy to be the boss and stay in your boss's office
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the whole day and kind of, you know, lose track of what's going on on the factory floor. Or another
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example that I gave was from a vice principal who decided to shadow a ninth grader all day,
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you know, from when the ninth grader arrived at school to PE, like ate lunch with him in the
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cafeteria, did the assignments that he was doing, sitting beside him in math class. And that's
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something that's uncommon, right? I mean, you might think, well, how could a vice principal not
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know what's going on at school? But that's not quite fair, right? Because the stuff that gets to a
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vice principal's desk is plenty to fill up their day. It's discipline issues, it's administrative
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issues, it's teacher evaluations. And you could go years easily without ever, you know, sitting next
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to a student in class. Like it took an unnatural act to make that possible. But that one day of just
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shadowing the student kind of unlocked all these ideas and inspirations for action.
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Well, going back to relationships, that's one of the roles a therapist can play. You can add that
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distance, right? Maybe the therapist in interacting with the couple can say, oh my gosh, you guys are
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doing this, you might not even know it. So if you want to see the work with your relationship, maybe
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go to a counselor or a therapist. Yeah, that's interesting, actually, that to sort of go and
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see the work, you have to bring in someone else to see it because it's almost like you've lost
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perspective from the inside. Yeah. Another leverage point is consider the goal of the goal. What do you
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mean by that? So we're so used to setting goals in organizations. I mean, goals are sort of like
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the language of organizations, that goals can actually take on a life of their own. And we can
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think we're succeeding, even though we're actually failing. Like, let me give you an example. I met this
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guy named Ryan Davidson, who told me about his experience buying a truck. He bought a Ram truck,
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he'd been saving up for it. So he buys the truck. He decides to take the truck camping its first
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weekend away. And sort of a couple of days after he buys this truck, the survey shakedown begins
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where people from the dealership just start hounding him to fill out a survey. Probably we've all had
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this experience in some domain or another. And not only are they trying to get him to fill out the
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survey, they're kind of like pestering to give them really good scores. Like, we would really
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appreciate your positive scores, underline bolded, on the survey. And so, you know, probably five
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different people from the dealership reach out to him multiple times over a period of two weeks in
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multiple media on the phone, via text message, via email. And so Ryan Davidson eventually realizes,
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like, I'm never going to be able to live a normal life until I fill out this survey. And so he takes
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the time, fills it out. And he says he gives them pretty much an A- level rating. Like, he was
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generally okay with the experience, but thought that some things could have been better. And he
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sends off the survey and clicks submit. Never hears from anyone again about the survey. After all the
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pestering, just the line goes dead, except that his sales rep starts texting him complaining about not
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having been given all 10 out of 10s on the survey. And so it's just kind of this silly charade that's
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taking place that, if you think about it, probably had a really good origin. Like, at some point,
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some of the leaders at RAM thought, hey, we would like our customers when they buy trucks from us to
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have a good experience. Like, so far, so good. Okay, well, how are we going to know if we're succeeding at
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that? Well, let's give a survey. After people buy a car, let's ask them some questions and see how
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they respond. Okay, that's even better. Now we have what we have diagnosing, like, whether we're
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succeeding or not. Okay, so you start collecting the survey. Well, then you start to get uncomfortable
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because some of your dealerships aren't getting very good scores. And so you think, well, gosh,
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we've got to boost those scores. And so it becomes a goal to boost the scores. You start layering on
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incentives and potential punishments if the scores don't improve. And all of a sudden,
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the survey, which was supposed to be a diagnostic, becomes its own target. In other words,
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my contention is the people at this dealership that Davidson went to actually didn't care at all
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what the experience was like. All that they cared about was that he bubbled in tens on this survey
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that they sent. That was what they cared about because that was what their incentives were yoked to.
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And so it becomes like this kind of perversion. And that's what I mean by the goal of the goal
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is we can't be content in setting and chasing goals. We have to ask, what's the goal of the goal?
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Like in this dealership example, why is it important that we get good scores on these customer
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surveys? Well, because we actually care ultimately about whether people had a good experience with us,
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would tell their friends, would come back and so forth. I think this can happen in groups like
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churches. You see like a church, maybe they want to start a program of some sort for fellowship or
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spiritual formation, but then the program becomes the focus and there's all this, it becomes a
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problem. It's not implemented the right way. No one's coming to the thing. There's resentment that
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builds up because people aren't doing what they're supposed to do. And then you have to step back.
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I was like, wait, why are we doing this thing anyways? Like the original goal was maybe some
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fellowship and rich people's lives. But here we are talking about just dumb stuff for this dumb
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program. And so asking yourself, it's actually a Richard Rohr. He's a monk. It's a father, Richard
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Rohr. He has this phrase. He says to ask yourself, what are we really doing when we are doing what we
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are doing? Ooh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, very goal of the goal friendly. Yeah. I think
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remembering or thinking about the goal of the goal can also keep you from a goal lock, right? So you
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might figure out a better way to achieve your original aim doing something else, right? So for
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example, let's say you're trying to make friends, but you're finding that hosting dinner parties, it
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just stresses you out. All right, that's fine. Maybe you could just have people over for dessert and
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games instead. There's more than one way to skin a cat when you're achieving your goals. Another leverage
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point is to focus on what's working in a system or organization to find a leverage point. What does
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that look like? This is the notion of studying bright spots, which I think is a really powerful
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idea. It's actually an idea that my brother Chip and I wrote about in a previous book called Switch,
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and it's kind of getting its second wind in this book. So the idea is very simple. It's to say,
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so often in life, our attention is grabbed by what's not working. And if you think about employee
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engagement, for instance, it's something a lot of businesses and organizations are thinking about,
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how do you keep your employees happy? How do you keep them around? And so you imagine you get a
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survey back, a pulse survey from your employees. And of course, every survey ever commissioned has
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different results. Some people are unhappy, some people are in the middle, some people are happy.
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And your attention immediately gravitates towards the employees who are unhappy.
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And what studying bright spots says is, why don't you spend some time trying to understand the other
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side of the spectrum? You know, for the employees who are really psyched to come to work every day,
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why? What are they so jazzed about? What's keeping them happy? What's giving them a sense of purpose?
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Because if you can understand that, it gives you the hope of reproducing that for everyone. You know,
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could you boost everybody's engagement by harvesting and kind of replicating the factors that are making
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your most satisfied employees that way? And that's the spirit of studying bright spots is sometimes we
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can find leverage points by just understanding at a deeper level, the things that we're already doing
00:22:05.460
I was thinking about how you apply this to our family life. You know, my kids, like a lot of siblings,
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they bicker a lot and it's annoying. She's always like, yeah, just leave your sister alone,
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leave your brother. But every now and then they have moments where they don't. It's just awesome.
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It's almost like a Norman Rockwell painting. It's like, wow, this is great. So I think finding the
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bright spots would be like, okay, what's going on when they're just like super kind and nice to each
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other and not bickering? Like what happened and how can we get more of that?
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That is exactly the spirit. And in fact, this is actually kind of a methodology used in a branch of
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therapy called solutions focused therapy. You know, in traditional therapy, it's very, very
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problem driven. Like let's get to the source of the problem, the root and in solutions focused
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therapy, they basically don't care about the problems. They want you to solve them, but they
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don't want to kind of wallow in them. And so in the book, I shared this case from a therapist named
00:22:58.720
John J. Murphy's like a giant in the field. And he tells the story of this woman who comes,
00:23:03.980
she's been having a lot of behavioral issues with her daughter and she's been diagnosed with ADHD.
00:23:09.880
And there's just a lot of tension. They're reluctant to put her on medication. And so they
00:23:15.600
end up talking about the morning, which seems to be like the crux of where things really can boil
00:23:20.420
over sometimes. And this mother said, you know, sometimes I end up yelling and I feel terrible
00:23:24.380
about myself. And, you know, when I act out, it makes her act out. And so they start thinking about
00:23:30.760
the bright spots. And so Murphy, the counselor is like, well, when does this not happen? And the
00:23:36.360
mom starts thinking and she says, you know, sometimes when, when I have a little more time
00:23:42.320
in the morning, you know, and I could just have a cup of coffee and be in my own brain, it's like,
00:23:47.860
it kind of steals me in a way where, where I can absorb more and I don't immediately react. And then
00:23:54.300
when I don't react, my daughter doesn't react. And so it's, it's almost becomes this,
00:23:58.320
this kind of self-reinforcing positive system. And so Murphy kind of praised her. He said, well,
00:24:04.180
you know, despite all the things that are going on, despite all the stresses in your life, like
00:24:07.560
you've already figured out a way to manage this well. Like, do you think we could figure out a way
00:24:13.000
to replicate your own success? And so the woman kind of thinks about it. She realizes, hey,
00:24:19.840
you know, I, the days when I wake up earlier, the days when I don't stay up late with my husband,
00:24:24.880
and maybe I don't have too many drinks. And so she, she goes home after one therapy session,
00:24:30.060
it's like, she kind of cracks the system where she just gets up 15 or 20 minutes early, has a
00:24:34.840
little bit of, of me time and that prepares her for the day. And I just love stories like that because
00:24:40.500
it's, it's like the seeds of success were already there in her life. And it just took someone to kind
00:24:46.660
of point them out and say, even if you're failing sometimes, even if you're failing a lot of the time,
00:24:52.320
you're not always failing, you're succeeding sometimes. And, and, and what explains your
00:24:57.540
success? And can you do more of it? We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
00:25:04.480
And now back to the show. Well, I want to talk about Chick-fil-A because like you, I'm always
00:25:09.020
impressed every time I go through the drive-through because it's just so efficient and use Chick-fil-A to
00:25:13.680
talk about the leverage point of constraints. Tell us about that. So constraints are the things
00:25:21.900
that are holding you back, the bottlenecks, the limiting factors. And so when we're looking for
00:25:26.760
leverage points, you know, we want to find somewhere where a little bit of work goes a long
00:25:30.300
way. Looking at a constraint can be really enlightening because if you can kind of whittle
00:25:34.600
down the number one thing that's holding you back, that can be magical. And to me, the Chick-fil-A
00:25:40.020
drive-through is a kind of brilliant example of this because the guy that ran the drive-through I
00:25:44.760
talked about earlier, a guy named Tony Fernandez is just a genius at managing constraints. This drive-through
00:25:50.960
I'm talking about can process 400 cars in an hour. I mean, that's a car every nine seconds,
00:25:58.280
which is just like Olympic level fast food drive-through. And he thinks very explicitly
00:26:04.320
about the constraints. He says, you know, one of the first things we realized was that the menu
00:26:10.480
board, you know, the thing where you drive up and you look at the menu is often a constraint. And,
00:26:15.340
you know, virtually all fast food places have one menu board and some of the busy ones have two
00:26:19.940
with two lanes. He said, we just thought, why do we need a menu board? I mean, Chick-fil-A menu,
00:26:26.420
it's like there's nuggets and fries. Like how, how hard is it? And, and so they just literally
00:26:32.160
eliminated the menu board and they pushed employees into the parking lot with iPads to take your order
00:26:38.180
at your window. And the beautiful thing about that is where before you were constrained with one path
00:26:44.360
to ordering or maybe two with the two menu board system. Now they can have five people in the parking
00:26:50.360
lot at the same time. And when they're not busy, they can scale it back to one person in the parking
00:26:55.920
lot. And so now you have eliminated the constraint of the ordering, but, but notice, and this is an
00:27:02.660
important theme is you always have a constraint. It's not like you just fix it and poof, it's gone.
00:27:08.220
No. What happens is when you eliminate one constraint, you've made the system better and the
00:27:13.460
constraint hops somewhere else. So if you've got five people taking orders on iPads in the parking
00:27:19.640
lot, like orders are flooding into the kitchen and then these poor people have to cook up, you know,
00:27:25.580
massive batches of nuggets and fries. And so now the kitchen's the bottleneck. And so you have to,
00:27:31.000
you know, staff up in the kitchen and create better systems so they can keep up. Well, once they're on
00:27:35.720
par, then maybe the bottleneck pops to what they call meal assembly, which is the people that bag
00:27:40.680
and box and pour your drinks and forth. And so he just had a very disciplined approach to this fast
00:27:47.200
food flow problem, which is to just chase one constraint at a time. And each time he eliminated
00:27:54.800
one constraint, the system improved and then it hopped to the next. And then he did it again and again and
00:28:00.280
again. So those are some leverage points. There's other ones you talk about in the book after leverage
00:28:05.120
points. You recommend people start doing what's called restacking resources. What do you mean by
00:28:10.140
that? Restacking resources just says leverage points is kind of about where do you aim? Like
00:28:16.140
we're trying to get unstuck. I'm saying you can't fix everything at once. You got to aim. You got to
00:28:20.580
find a place where a little bit goes a long way. Okay. Now that you've done that, you've got to find
00:28:25.160
some fuel. Like you've got to have a way to push on the leverage point. And so for that, you need
00:28:30.600
resources. That's what I mean by restacking resources. Like a lot of times, especially
00:28:35.620
in organizations, when people start talking about change, it's like one more thing to add to the
00:28:42.660
pile. It's like, we're going to do everything we did yesterday and this new thing that the boss is
00:28:47.300
excited about. But one of the themes in the book is that change is not about and, it's instead of.
00:28:55.260
So it's like, if something has become a priority, if we want to push toward that new priority, we've
00:29:01.860
got to give somewhere else. I mean, we're constrained to what we have probably. There's not just like
00:29:07.240
giant satchels of free cash in the supply cabinet that we can tap or, you know, there's not an army
00:29:12.260
of idle employees that we can bring to bear. We've got to figure out how to reconfigure what we have to
00:29:18.180
push in that new direction. That's what I mean by restack resources. Gotcha. And the first way you
00:29:23.080
recommend people restack resources to start improving things is to begin your action plan
00:29:29.140
or maybe the action plan on leveraging that leverage point with a burst. And you mentioned
00:29:34.560
earlier, a lot of people, when they have a problem, one of their first instincts is just to work
00:29:39.800
harder. If we just work harder, we'll solve it. How is doing a burst, which you describe as a
00:29:45.260
focused output of energy, different from the standard way of working hard?
00:29:50.280
That's a great question. So I think the notion of a burst is not necessarily work harder. It's like
00:29:57.600
work denser. Like what I mean is, if you've got some new priority, if you can work on it for 30
00:30:05.720
focused hours on that priority in one week, my contention is that's probably going to be the
00:30:12.640
equivalent of 100 hours that you scattered and fragmented across six months. So it's like you
00:30:20.720
want to push hard in a concentrated way, in a collaborative way, all at once, maybe leaving
00:30:26.360
other things on the wayside to focus on the new priority. It's almost like if you've ever pushed
00:30:32.120
up a stuck window, like the amount of effort to get the window moving at all, it's pretty dramatic.
00:30:37.740
And then once it starts moving, it becomes a lot easier to keep it moving. That's the idea of the
00:30:43.320
burst. And one thing it does too, there's a psychological impact, right? You actually start
00:30:48.860
seeing some progress. You're like, oh, maybe this problem is actually solvable. So that initial burst
00:30:54.100
creates sort of like a flywheel of motivation. Well said. And it reminds me, I met this guy,
00:31:01.420
Greg McLaughlin, who talked about how sometimes actually being inefficient can make us more
00:31:08.380
effective. Like he gave an example of, he was working on a gardening project for his wife. I
00:31:15.060
think I shouldn't call it a project. They were just trying to like add some irrigation to their
00:31:19.660
family garden or whatever. And he was put in charge of the run to Home Depot. And he had this great line.
00:31:26.060
And he said, the immutable law of the universe is that no project can ever be completed with one
00:31:31.620
trip to Home Depot. It's like, even if you go in search of one 60 watt light bulb, when you get
00:31:38.420
home, inevitably you discover, oh, actually it was supposed to be a 59 watt light bulb. And you have
00:31:42.460
to go back. And so this, this proves true for him. He has, he ends up with like the wrong splitter part
00:31:47.840
for the irrigation system or whatever. And he's an attorney. And so he said, you know, in his mind,
00:31:53.920
the efficient thing to do would be wait for the next trip to Home Depot, which would be, you know,
00:31:59.980
in a week or a couple of weeks or whatever, and just add it to the list rather than make a special
00:32:05.080
trip for this $5 part. And he was thinking in his mind, you know, it's going to cost me $200 in
00:32:10.460
billable hours and $6 in gas to go get this $5 part. Like that's crazy. But then he said, it's not crazy
00:32:17.060
because the definition of success to his wife is I can water the plants, right? And, and it doesn't
00:32:24.140
matter that we're 90% there absent one part, a hundred percent is what matters. And so he got
00:32:29.540
right back in his car, went to Home Depot, got the part and worked to completion. And he said,
00:32:35.080
it may have been inefficient, but it was effective. And he said, it made him realize that he was doing
00:32:40.760
some similar things in his law firm where, you know, in the guise of efficiency, maybe he would get
00:32:45.840
a bunch of documents to 90%, but 90% doesn't mean anything. Like you haven't solved problems for
00:32:52.040
clients. You haven't been able to bill for it because it's not done. And so he started trying
00:32:56.220
to kind of reconceptualize his work with effectiveness as the goal instead of efficiency.
00:33:02.620
And that's your point about how this burst of effort can get us to completion. You know, it's like
00:33:08.520
you want the burst to get the irrigation system done. And it doesn't matter whether it was efficient
00:33:13.760
or not. What matters is, can you water the plants? Yeah. And in this chapter, you talk about scrum
00:33:19.880
and scrum, they use sprints, which is basically a burst. And what you're doing with these bursts
00:33:25.340
or these sprints is like, you're not working hard all the time. You do some planning and then you
00:33:29.960
schedule an intense amount of activity. It's dense. Then you take another break, recalibrate,
00:33:36.380
see what needs to be done. And then you start up again. So you have a clear goal, which you're trying
00:33:39.660
to achieve. And then you work hard for a few hours and then you're done. That's it.
00:33:45.040
And it's an antidote to, you know, anybody who works in a large organization knows this problem of
00:33:51.320
just how mind numbing it can be to get something changed because you're working through
00:33:57.180
meetings and then to align calendars, you can't meet until two weeks from now. And then you start
00:34:02.000
an email chain and the email chain starts to spiral outward with more and more people on it. And then,
00:34:06.600
you know, it's like something that you all could have resolved if you'd been in the same room and
00:34:10.940
just put your heads together and done the work, not talked about it, but done the work
00:34:14.980
for eight hours in the same room. Like all of a sudden it can take six months just because of,
00:34:20.100
you know, asynchronous delays and so forth. And so I think that's the power of a burst is
00:34:25.300
it may be unnatural to try to clear your calendars and kind of get in the same room to work on the
00:34:31.580
same problem, but boy, does it pay off down the road.
00:34:34.040
Another way to restack resources is to recycle waste. And I think a lot of people understand
00:34:39.460
what waste is in a factory setting. So you gave that example of the box factory, they had a lot
00:34:43.620
of waste there. So if you have a lot of leftover material making a widget, that's waste. But let's
00:34:49.500
talk about how does waste appear in organizations not creating widgets or even in families? What does
00:34:56.040
So I want to share the kind of operational definition of waste I'm using in the book,
00:35:01.460
which is taken from this guy named Taiichi Ono, who was one of the godfathers of the Toyota
00:35:06.420
production system. So if you've ever intersected with like people obsessed about operations,
00:35:11.920
they all talk about the Toyota production system.
00:35:14.960
Six Sigma, yeah, exactly. So the definition, waste is any activity that doesn't add value for the customer,
00:35:21.800
which I think is a really interesting thing to try to wrap your brain around. Like that receiving
00:35:27.340
area we've talked about a couple of times. Like here's a classic example. So, you know, nurses
00:35:32.120
in the hospital would get frustrated. You know, they ordered some medicine, hasn't shown up. They
00:35:37.080
would call the receiving area and there was a red phone in the receiving area. Somebody would have
00:35:40.660
to pick up, deal with the nurse's complaint. They'd have to go rushing around, looking for the box,
00:35:45.120
seeing if they had it. When was it going to be delivered? And so every one of those answered
00:35:51.560
calls to the red phone is waste. Even if the person handling the inquiry did it politely,
00:35:59.480
even if they did it efficiently, it was waste because the nurse never wanted to have to call
00:36:04.220
to check on the package, right? It was, it did not add value for the customer. And when you start to
00:36:09.840
think about it that way, you realize if you can change the way you work every time the nurse doesn't
00:36:15.700
have to call, that puts 15 minutes back in your pocket of, of the time you spent kind of noodling
00:36:22.000
around looking for the package. So anyway, I kind of got into the waste literature and yes, there is
00:36:27.980
such a thing. And it made me start thinking about family life. And, you know, I mentioned my, my girls.
00:36:34.860
And so every morning getting ready for school is like a thing. It's just like a, a mother load of waste,
00:36:40.660
all the things that we do and the pestering. And, and one kind of recurring source of pain was just
00:36:46.660
shoes and socks. Like you'd be able to find one shoe. Where's the other shoe? Oh, you know, it's by
00:36:52.220
the front door and okay, we got the shoes, but now we're socks. You got to go back upstairs and get
00:36:56.520
the socks. And so my wife has this kind of stroke of genius. We have this giant drawer by the back door
00:37:02.940
where we go out to walk to school. And she just piled all of their shoes, every pair and all of their
00:37:08.980
socks into this drawer. And so that's where they live and they never get beyond that room. So number
00:37:14.840
one, we always know where they are. And number two, it had these kind of unanticipated benefits of,
00:37:20.280
well, now they take their shoes and socks off by the back door. And so they don't track dirt through
00:37:23.740
the house. And, and I just had to smile at how, you know, with this kind of one idea, we've eliminated
00:37:30.520
this whole source of nagging and fussing and rushing around the house. And now we can use our time,
00:37:36.400
like arguing about whether you can eat the brown spot on the waffle or not. So it's, it's, it's been
00:37:42.160
a real breakthrough for us. Right. Your wife's got a Six Sigma black belt in home management.
00:37:46.400
Exactly. Exactly. I love it. By the way, I was remembering last time we talked,
00:37:50.660
you had a great like personal burst thing of the reset day. Oh, the reset. Yeah, that is, that's right.
00:37:57.100
Yeah. If you haven't talked about that in a while, you should share that with your listeners. Cause
00:37:59.840
that's a really, really good example. Yeah. We wrote an article about that and I'll, I'll put it in the
00:38:03.880
show notes. So a reset day is, it's basically a day we set aside where we're not working.
00:38:09.700
The kids are at school. So, you know, they're not in our business and my wife and I will just get done
00:38:15.600
all the life admin that's been piling up. So paying bills, you know, doing retirement stuff or estate
00:38:23.380
planning, planning vacations, all that stuff that just kind of gets pushed back and back. So we'll just
00:38:29.420
dedicate a day and get all of it done. And then it feels great to be done with it.
00:38:34.340
That's so good. I had a reader that talked about using a life crap month. I think yours is even
00:38:42.280
better cause it's more like punchy and focused, but it was exactly the kind of stuff you're talking
00:38:46.840
about. It's like updating the wills and making sure the address on your life insurance policy is
00:38:52.280
updated and all the stuff that's just like pulling teeth day to day. And they said, you know,
00:38:57.800
by the end of the month, it's just like, they felt like they were on cloud nine. They just felt
00:39:01.660
like such effective adults having checked all these boxes that have gone unchecked for so long.
00:39:07.460
Yeah, no, I highly recommend it. Another thing you talk about is if you have a problem that seems
00:39:13.020
intractable, look for ways you can do less, but you also have to do more at the same time. What do you
00:39:20.760
So this is back to the idea that change is not and it's instead of, and I had this, this very
00:39:26.620
provocative conversation with this guy who's a consultant. His name is David Philippi for the
00:39:31.200
consultancy Strategics and they're kind of obsessed with the Pareto principle, you know, the 80-20 rule,
00:39:38.020
80% of your revenue might come from 20% of your customers. But one of the methodologies they use
00:39:44.480
really stuck with me. So here's, here's what they do. They go into a client's, you know, financials
00:39:50.460
and they try to isolate each client and figure out how profitable they were by client, which
00:39:57.760
would seem obvious. I mean, you would like to know how profitable your different clients
00:40:01.300
are, but it's no trivial thing because even if you know, like, well, I sent this many
00:40:06.500
parts to this client and the parts cost this much, but you also have to balance in things
00:40:10.180
like how much relationship time does this client eat up? Like, are they, are they a needy
00:40:15.960
client? Are they an easy client? Do they eat up a lot of support time? And so you kind
00:40:20.220
of go through the ledger, try to come up with profitability by client, and then they force
00:40:24.700
rank the clients from best to worst in terms of profitability. And Philippi said that in
00:40:30.340
virtually every case when they've done this, what they find is that your very best clients
00:40:36.220
are undercoddled and your worst clients are overcoddled. Like here's an example of what he
00:40:42.960
meant by that. He said, repeatedly, they have found that the on-time delivery record. So
00:40:49.520
he works with a lot of manufacturers that are like shipping stuff out. The on-time delivery
00:40:53.940
record was better for the worst clients than it was for the best. And that just seems like
00:41:01.180
impossible. How could you ever treat your best clients that way? But he said, what happens
00:41:04.800
is a lot of times the worst clients are the ones that are buying like little nickel and
00:41:09.320
dime stuff. Maybe it's just one part that you have to stick in a box and ship out. And
00:41:13.500
so it's easy, it's quick. And if your shipping department is incentivized, for instance, on
00:41:19.580
percentage of on-time deliveries, well, you can just nail those like simple ones, boom,
00:41:25.420
boom, boom, boom, boom, and look like a genius. You've got a 96% on-time rate. But meanwhile,
00:41:31.520
the 4% might've been like your very best customers who had complicated assemblies that took some time
00:41:37.320
and took some planning. And so he kind of flips the lens and says, look, your best clients need
00:41:42.680
to have a perfect on-time rate every time, no matter what it means for the rest of the folks.
00:41:49.240
So all that's been about profitability so far. But let me kind of flip the script here.
00:41:54.480
Imagine that same idea applied to almost anything in your life. It might be how you're spending your
00:42:00.560
time across projects. It might be relationships. Like think about all the relationships you have in your
00:42:07.080
life. And imagine that you kind of ranked them according to the value and preciousness that
00:42:13.680
they have for you. And so obviously, probably your family's at the very top of the list. And then
00:42:18.680
if you zoom all the way to the bottom, it's going to be maybe old friendships that have grown
00:42:25.340
increasingly toxic or commitments that you made to some volunteer organization that just kind of
00:42:32.220
gone sideways and feels like a waste of time or whatever. But we all have a ranking. We all have
00:42:37.500
people who are more and less precious to us. And if you take this kind of logic and you think,
00:42:43.340
aren't I probably undercoddling the people most precious to me with all this time and energy I'm
00:42:49.900
expending on the people at the bottom of the ranking? And wouldn't it be smarter to kind of steal from
00:42:55.540
the overcoddled people at the bottom to give me more wherewithal, more availability to the people
00:43:02.380
I care most about? What was really seductive about that logic to me is, just to remind listeners where
00:43:09.440
we are, we're thinking about when you're trying to push in a new direction, where do you get the fuel
00:43:13.620
to push? And if you think about this kind of overcoddled, undercoddled logic, you realize
00:43:18.860
that's where you get the resources is you steal from the overcoddled and give to the undercoddled,
00:43:26.060
if that makes sense. That makes perfect sense. So if someone's feeling overwhelmed in their life,
00:43:30.780
it's usually because they have too many commitments. I think, yeah, ranking things can be really useful
00:43:35.980
and then focus more time. So you're going to do less with the people that aren't as important to you.
00:43:40.960
So you can do more with the people that are important to you or do... That's it. Yeah, I love that.
00:43:45.480
Exactly. A lot of times when organizations or groups get stuck, the typical approach to solve
00:43:51.120
the problem is there'll be like a sort of top-down, command and control type dictating. So there's
00:43:56.620
a manager that says, oh, here's the problem. And then they tell individual employees, here's what
00:44:01.280
you're going to do to solve the problem. But you argue that handing things off directly to
00:44:05.540
individuals in the group and just letting them come up with solutions can actually speed up
00:44:10.040
solutions to the problem. How so? This is a concept that I call let people drive. And the
00:44:15.420
idea is if you're looking for fuel to push in a new direction, one of the best sources of fuel is
00:44:20.340
motivation. And one of the most evergreen sources of motivation is autonomy, like letting people
00:44:27.300
drive, giving people some reins to act. I mean, there's basically no high-performing team in the
00:44:33.780
world that is micromanaged. Navy SEALs, Green Berets, not micromanaged. You've got to loosen the reins.
00:44:43.120
But this can be counterintuitive in organizations because when things aren't going well, a lot of
00:44:48.720
times our instinct, as you said, is to kind of clamp down. I took inspiration from, there's a great
00:44:55.160
video. You can find this on YouTube. It's from a consultant named Henrik Nieberg. And he talks about
00:45:01.520
how Spotify organizes itself. And he distinguishes autonomy from alignment. And he said, you might start
00:45:09.380
by thinking that these are kind of opposite ideas. Like, autonomy is like, I can do what I want. And
00:45:15.620
alignment means I'm doing what everybody else is doing. But he says, at Spotify, they're not in
00:45:20.840
opposition. Like, if you think about a two-by-two matrix, low autonomy and low alignment is the bad
00:45:27.880
one, right? That's like, it's an ineffective culture. It's like a call center, right? Everybody's
00:45:33.800
on their own. They're not really collaborating, but they're also being heavily micromanaged.
00:45:39.120
Where we really want to be is in the high autonomy, high alignment square of the two-by-two,
00:45:45.720
which means we know what the vision is. Like Nieberg in his video says, you know, management
00:45:51.780
says, we need a way to get across the river. Like, that's the strategic priority. Figure it out. That's
00:45:57.660
the autonomy piece. So, we're aligned on vision, but we trust our employees to figure out the
00:46:03.180
methodology. And I think that's a really enlightened way to look at it. You know, autonomy doesn't mean
00:46:09.680
like everybody just gets to do what they want willy-nilly. Autonomy means we trust people
00:46:14.760
enough to kind of let them figure things out. Yeah. So, it's about giving people maybe some
00:46:20.060
guardrails. Like, here, you know, here's what we don't want you to do. Like, we definitely don't want
00:46:25.220
you doing this. But anything within those guardrails is free game. You can do it if it gets
00:46:30.320
the job done. That's it. That's it. And I find myself making this mistake all the time as a
00:46:36.200
parent. You know, it's like even little dumb stuff like teaching kids how to use knives and cut up
00:46:43.620
their food at dinner. And it's like a hundred times out of a hundred, you're going to be better at that
00:46:49.480
than them. You know what I mean? And so, like, if you're in a hurry or whatever, it's like, oh, let me
00:46:54.700
just do it. Let me just cut up your steak or whatever. But that robs them of autonomy. And
00:46:59.940
it also kind of dooms you to being in the same role forevermore. Like, every time that you take,
00:47:06.340
you know, some task back from them is a time that they haven't built any personal capacity.
00:47:13.000
Well, let's workshop this. Maybe you and I can figure this out. One thing I've been
00:47:16.200
always getting on my kids about is just keeping things tidy. Just kind of dump things off everywhere
00:47:21.200
in the house. You're like, hey, why is this here? And typically, I actually just, I throw stuff
00:47:26.460
away. If I see it on the floor for longer than 12 hours, I'm like, oh, it must be trash. It's on the
00:47:32.840
I pick that up from my dad and my kids hate it. It's not a good habit. But what can we do? How can
00:47:37.000
we use this idea of giving maybe our kids autonomy to help us get the house tidy?
00:47:43.460
I'll tell you a story that I remember from years and years and years ago. So,
00:47:46.540
this woman emailed my brother and I and said, she was in exactly the situation you're in. She had a
00:47:52.620
kid and he would never, he liked to play with trucks. He was probably, I don't know, seven or
00:47:56.960
eight years old, maybe younger. Loved to play with trucks. Did not like to clean up the trucks. And so
00:48:01.500
it became a recurring source of tension. And then she said, one day I just kind of, I just realized
00:48:07.460
like motivation is the game here. It's not, it's not about instruction. It's about, I have to figure out
00:48:13.680
a way for him to want to do this. And so she said, I took an old bookcase. I took all the books off of
00:48:20.760
it. And then we painted parking stripes on it together. And then I let him assign a parking
00:48:27.020
space to every one of his trucks. And so he had some autonomy and it's like, well, this one's going
00:48:30.820
to go here and, and this one's the prime spot. So this is like where my best truck's going to go.
00:48:34.740
And then she said, she never again mentioned the idea of cleaning up his room or cleaning up his
00:48:40.460
truck. She said, have you, have you parked your trucks yet? And it was like part of the
00:48:43.660
play. And I think that's kind of brilliant. Jiu Jitsu is figuring out where's the motivation
00:48:49.460
here. Where does their motivation align with mine? And can I figure out a way to thread that
00:48:55.260
needle? So it's not just, you know, my order and their compliance.
00:48:59.780
Well, Dan, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book
00:49:03.680
Well, I have a website at danheath.com that will tell you everything you ever wanted to know
00:49:11.840
Yeah. You do have a podcast. What's your podcast about?
00:49:14.360
The podcast is called what it's like to be. And the, uh, the conceit is in every episode.
00:49:19.880
I talk to someone from a different profession. So I've talked recently to a Christmas tree farmer,
00:49:26.080
an Olympic bobsledder, a London cabbie, a secret service agent, and more.
00:49:32.140
Sounds awesome. Well, Dan Heath, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:49:36.460
My guest today was Dan Heath. He's the author of the book Reset. It's available on
00:49:39.820
amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his
00:49:43.360
website, danheath.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash leverage. We find links
00:49:50.380
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at
00:50:01.640
artofmanless.com. We find our podcast archives and check out our new newsletter. It's called
00:50:05.720
Dying Breed. You can sign up at dyingbreed.net. And as always, thank you for the continued support.
00:50:10.440
Until next time, it's Brett McKay. Remind you to listen to AOM podcast, but put what you've heard