How to Use the Principles of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to Overcome Obstacles in Business and Life
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, I sit down with the founder and CEO of Gracie University, Hinder Gracie, to discuss how he uses the principles of Jiu-Jitsu in his business and how he can use them to overcome obstacles in life.
Transcript
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Rhett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, there are certain principles like timing, leverage, and positioning
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that practitioners must master to successfully overcome an opponent.
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My guest has found that these same principles that allow someone to be successful on the
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Hinder Grace is the co-owner and head instructor of Grace University, and the author of the
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32 Principles, harnessing the power of Jiu-Jitsu to succeed in business, relationships, and
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Today on the show, Hinder shares how he's used some of the core teachings of Jiu-Jitsu, like
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the pyramid principle and the river principle, in his business, and how he can use them to
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash bjjprinciples.
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All right, Hinder Gracie, welcome back to the show.
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But then we did those awesome videos like over 10 years ago now, right?
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Our audience who's followed us on YouTube, they probably are aware of your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
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Yeah, in fact, those were probably, like for people getting into Jiu-Jitsu, the number
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of people that have met me and cited those videos as the videos that they watched that
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Like literally, it never stops happening and it never ceases to amaze me that, yo, I saw
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the Art of Manliness introductory video you did to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
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Now I've been training at some school out in the middle of nowhere.
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It's just amazing to see how long lasting that video has been and still remains timeless
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So thanks to you and the team for putting that together and we've benefited greatly from
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Well, thank you for being a part of those videos because we've benefited a lot from those
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Well, so you are the co-founder and CEO of Gracie University.
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It's a global Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu organization that teaches students both in person and online.
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And like I said, people are, I'm sure, aware of you and your family and your legacy with
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BJJ, but for those who aren't familiar with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, how does it differ from
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Jiu-Jitsu is the first martial art that delivers what it promises.
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And what that really means is every martial art claims to give the little person the chance
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to defeat and defend against a larger attacker.
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That's the only reason we learn martial arts, right?
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To defend ourselves against a larger, more athletic physical threat.
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And Jiu-Jitsu for the last hundred years, right, really this thing started in 1925, so
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we're nearing a hundred years here, has proven time and time again that a smaller person equipped
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with Jiu-Jitsu can defend against and can overcome a larger adversary who doesn't know
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And it was proven in Brazil in the early 1900s.
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My father brought the art to America as a first, you know, the oldest son of nine siblings
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of my grandfather, the Grand Master, when my father brought it to America, he started
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Every person he met, he invited for a free class.
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Every one of those friends that came for a free class told their friends who told their
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And the thing blew up here in a garage in Hermosa Beach, California.
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In 1993, my father co-created the UFC, Ultimate Fighting Championship, with the simple
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objective of putting all the different martial arts on display on pay-per-view television
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so that spectators around the world could see what really works and what doesn't work
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My uncle, Hoist Gracie, was chosen as the family representative in UFC 1 and was intentionally
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much smaller than all the other participants in the tournament, the fighting tournament.
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You had to win three fights in the same night in order to win the championship.
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And there was no weight classes, no time limits, and essentially no rules in terms of what
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People didn't have to wear gloves like they do today in mixed martial arts.
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So when my uncle, Hoist, went in there as the smallest person and defeated these giants
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in UFC 1, 2, and then again in UFC 4, the world was put on notice.
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This little guy who looks like he's going to get pummeled is defending himself and overcoming
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these giants with these beautiful nonviolent techniques of jiu-jitsu.
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So basically, it was a big infomercial for jiu-jitsu, and it was successful.
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At that point, the whole world is realizing if they're going to learn anything, you might
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as well learn what the little guy is doing because that's going to give you the best
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chance of success in a violent physical altercation against someone who outweighs you or is stronger
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or younger or more athletic, faster, better endurance.
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All of those physical traits can be overcome with the right amount of technique.
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And the crazy part, Brett, it doesn't take that long.
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So we're talking months, not years and years and years and years to learn a level of skill
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that will help you stay safe against a larger opponent in a real fight.
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Growing up, started teaching as a 13-year-old child.
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So I had my first private class student as a child.
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His name was Robert Mendoza Jr., five-year-old kid who was getting bullied.
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And I started teaching Robert, you know, $10 for a class.
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And before you know it, I'm leading kids' classes.
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By 18, I'm in North Carolina teaching the special forces with my dad, like leading the
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class with my father, teaching these guys are the highest military operatives.
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And then before you know it, at 19 years old, my brother and I, my brother was 20, 21.
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We were thrust into leadership roles when my Uncle Hoyce branched off to do his own thing
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So now we're running the Gracie Academy as essentially, you know, I was a teenager.
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And we had leadership roles of head instructorship and really managing the entire operation of
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And now we're charged with growing this thing and figuring out how to run this business
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So yeah, 20 years I've been running the show here.
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And now we're a global organization with, you know, 350,000 online students learning all
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over the world, 250 locations worldwide, teaching our proprietary programs, essentially licensed
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And we're the preeminent organization when it comes to teaching law enforcement in America,
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jujitsu-based defensive tactics and nonviolent control tactics.
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So jujitsu is the craze right now, kind of circling back to where I started with this long-winded
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And everyone who has a good introduction to the art by a well-qualified teacher falls head
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over heels in love with it because it teaches you to do things with your body that you never
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Not in a strenuous, physical demanding way, but in a resourcefulness way.
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You realize that your body is capable of so much more than you ever imagined when you
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teach it some technique, when you give it the proper leverage, the positioning, the timing,
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and of course, all the principles that jujitsu entails.
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Well, speaking of principles, you got a new book out called The 32 Principles, Harnessing
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the Power of Jujitsu to Succeed in Business, Relationships, and Life.
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And in this, you lay out what you call the alphabet of Brazilian jujitsu.
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When did you realize in all the 20 years you've been doing this that jujitsu has these 32 principles
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So, I mean, all my life, I've learned thousands of techniques in jujitsu.
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And to this day, we continue to invent new techniques, right?
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So it's literally an endless martial art in terms of the individual techniques to solve
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But what has always been known to any lifelong practitioner of jujitsu is that even though
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there are thousands of techniques and they're always evolving, there are a set number of
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principles that make all of those techniques possible.
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You just kind of knew that there might be technique 1, 17, 36, and 47, but all of them have some
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common themes and principles that are utilized in those techniques.
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And even though we knew generally that there were some, you know, timing, right, energy
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efficiency, leverage, right, control, these are some macro principles that are thrown around
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loosely in jujitsu as something that is constantly present and always happening.
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What we realized is that during COVID, in fact, when our school got shut down, right?
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So we have this huge brick and mortar jujitsu business and we are completely shut down for
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So we did some Zoom classes, but we had a lot of free time during this period.
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That's when my brother and I decided to kind of dig in on the creation of a course in jujitsu,
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an instructional video course for jujitsu that would aim to extrapolate and identify the core
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principles, the micro principles that every technique in jujitsu relies on.
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So we went for it and we studied for several months and kind of extrapolating and going over
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several concepts and really identifying every move has different steps and different technique
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components, but all of them rely on the same 32 core principles.
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Once we realized and we've identified, we named them, we classified all of them, then we decided
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let's film a video course in which we teach these principles.
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If you're a beginner, this is helpful to know because from the get-go, you're learning how
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to think jujitsu rather than learning how to do jujitsu.
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If you're an advanced practitioner, this course would help you make sense of the thousands of
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techniques you've already learned and can often be so overwhelming, right?
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That simple, the sheer number of techniques that you've learned over the years, it's often
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overwhelming and discouraging to some extent for advanced practitioners.
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But once they understood the 32 principles, it would be a way of distilling their vast catalogs
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of techniques down to these 32 core principles so you learn that essentially if you forget
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a technique but you still retain the principles that make that technique possible, then when
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the situation changes, you can still call on the principles even when you forget the technique.
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As we were doing the extrapolation process of identifying what these principles were, it
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made me realize as I was going over and recording these for jujitsu purposes only, the extent to
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which these same 32 principles were the ones that I had been leaning on, even though I had
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not named them and classified them and organized them into a curriculum, the principles themselves
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had always been there and I had been leaning on them, not just in jujitsu, but in every
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So when I kind of replay my life's milestones, right, the most significant achievements, the
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biggest failures, the biggest lost opportunities, the biggest breakthroughs in entrepreneurial
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successes, family successes, family problems and challenges that I faced, I realized that
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my entire operating system as a human being, both personally and professionally, was based
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on these 32 principles that jujitsu had instilled in me over a lifelong practice of the art.
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So you're doing jujitsu changed the way you think and approach the world.
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You have an operating system and your operating system is a function of what?
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Your schooling, your experiences, your parenting, the way that you were parented, the way that
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you were brought up, the community that you were brought up in.
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All of your life's experiences shape the operating system that is you.
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And then whatever your operating system is will determine how you react and respond to different
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indicators, challenges, threats, opportunities, different stimuli in your life.
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All of those will be responded to based on the conditioning of your operating system, right?
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The computer is only as good as its operating system and as is true for a human being.
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And what jujitsu does for us, Brett, is every single day we step on the mat, jujitsu presents
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us with the most robust and the widest array of challenges, opportunities, struggles, adversities,
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So it's like doing jujitsu every single day teaches me how to face every challenge you can
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But the metaphorical connection between these obstacles and adversities that we face in a
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fight to the obstacles that we face in everyday life could not be any clearer, right?
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When people are faced with a high stress situation in life, they respond in panic.
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They respond with anxiety, uncertainty, if they're not conditioned to deal with high stress encounters
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in a more technical, proficient, and a strategic way.
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If I can get caught in a headlock from a 200-pound man and not stress out and technically,
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efficiently strategize my escape, make my escape happen, and then turn that liability into an
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opportunity, if that's what my body and my brain are conditioned to do every single time I step on the mat,
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imagine how my brain is going to respond and how my operating system will perform when I'm at work
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and I've struggled with an interaction with a colleague, or I get spoken to by my boss in a way
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that was less than favorable, or I'm at home with my wife and we're struggling to come to an agreement
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on something that we should do as parents with regards to how we're parenting our child.
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It's all about dealing with adversity, overcoming problems and adversity and obstacles in our life.
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So when you dive headfirst into the regular practice of jujitsu, you become these principles.
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You become this operating system that is so comfortable dealing with adversity and dealing
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with the struggles and challenges that are presented in a fight, that when you apply those
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same ideologies into everyday life, everything just kind of is easy.
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Well, let's talk about some of these principles and how they have application beyond the mat.
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And the first principle we start off with is connection.
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You know, the number one thing that I try to explain to people who are doing jujitsu for the
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first time is that your body is an incredible tool or weapon, however you want to do it,
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It's much more capable than anything you've ever imagined.
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It's like, imagine if you had a Swiss army knife, right?
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Which has 17 different utility applications on that little Swiss army knife, but all this
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And then someone told you, Brett, there are 16 other tools on this little contraption that
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you can use to improve life, solve problems and overcome challenges.
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You would say, holy cow, there's scissors, there's a magnifying glass, there's a toothpick,
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Oh my gosh, like you would lose your mind if you had been living 25, 30, 50 years thinking
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that a Swiss army knife was only a knife to only then find out that you were just barely
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So in jujitsu, people use their bodies to connect to their adversary in ways that you would never
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So when you think of connecting, you think of grappling, you think of using your hands
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But what you learn in jujitsu is every single surface on your body serves a distinct and uniquely
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effective purpose in the overall context of a fight.
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So when you talk about your foot, yes, there's just a foot, right?
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There's a sole of your foot that you would push with.
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When you do jujitsu, we have the bottom of the foot, the sole.
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We have the ankle, the bend of the ankle, which is used for hooking.
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So I can flex my toes up and use them for digging.
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The Achilles behind my heel is used for hooking like a spur on a cowboy's boot.
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I can hook someone's body and connect to them that way.
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So just with my foot alone, you've learned five connections that you might not have otherwise
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known your foot was capable of if not for the practice of jujitsu.
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So what you learn through the practice of jujitsu is how to use your body in ways you never imagined
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And then all you say to yourself after a little bit of practice, you go, wow, how crazy that
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I was operating all that time just with the knife when in fact my body was capable of
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all 17 applications that I never knew were possible.
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And it's a very enlightening, empowering experience for a human being to go through after so many
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years of thinking their body was capable of walking, running, jumping, and dancing.
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So when I talk about the life and business application of this connection principle, what
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that translates to is really diversifying and constantly improving and increasing the
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tools and tactics that you're using to connect with the world, right?
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So as someone who's trying to share jujitsu with the world, when I injured my back at 19
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years old, 18 years old, I had a back injury, lower back injury, I suffered a herniated disc during
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So the accident happened and now I'm much more intelligent about how I train and how
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So this doesn't happen, but it happened then, had a surgery.
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I was out for 10 months during that 10 month hiatus.
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I thought to myself, wow, what if I can never do jujitsu again?
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What if I get hurt again when I'm 25, 27, 35, 39?
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What if I get to the point where I can't teach jujitsu for the rest of my life, my tool, my
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That feeling of frustration and uncertainty led to the birth of Gracie University, an interactive
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online learning center in which we upload videos of every one of our unique programs so that
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anyone anywhere in the world could learn everything that we've learned, my brother and I, in order
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So lesson one leads into lesson two, lesson two builds on lesson one, lesson three builds
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It's the only linear interactive online learning center for martial arts in the world where
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every single lesson is built on every single previous lesson.
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And as a result, students from all over the world are able to learn everything we've learned,
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everything we know in jujitsu linearly from their living rooms.
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So when we talk about connection, this was a situation where we enhanced the way that we're
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connecting with the students and we took it one step further.
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Some people complained that they didn't have a training partner in their garage.
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Their wife didn't want to do it with them or their husband or their son or parents.
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So we created a new classification of training center called a Gracie Garage to pay homage to
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my father's days in the garage in the early 1970s and 80s.
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So a Gracie Garage, Brett, is a classification on Gracie University of someone who wants to
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make their home an unofficial at-home training center.
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So basically, they list themselves on the website and they say, hey, this is my home.
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And if you're interested, please message me through the system here and let's talk.
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And if your vibe is right and my vibe vibes with yours, we're happy to invite you over
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And the number of friendships and connections that have been made amongst training partners
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all over the world, Brett, because of Gracie University online learning and because of
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this garage classification of an unofficial at-home training center, thousands and thousands
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and thousands of networks have been made and connections have been made with each other,
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These students become so in love with jujitsu from home that they then grow their skills and
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develop to an effective enough, proficient enough level that they eventually aspire to become
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So they come to Torrance here at headquarters in California, get certified, then they go
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home and what was a Gracie garage of 10 buddies training in the neighborhood becomes a certified
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training center at a commercial location where they're now running an actual business.
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People started learning online and they end up opening commercial for-profit schools and now
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they run successful businesses with hundreds of students and they've quit their careers to
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All of this was because when I hurt my back at 19 years old, when I had my surgery and
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spent that 10 months off, I was able to think of the connection principle and really broaden
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the ways in which we were connecting with and sharing jujitsu with the world.
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So that's just one example of how this connection principle can really change your effectiveness,
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Or if it's personal, we talk about family dynamics, right?
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In terms of how you're connecting with your children or your spouse, are you connecting
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Or are you going one step further and finding connecting ways that are meaningful for your
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family members so that those connections and that time together is even more meaningful
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So really, connection is about are you being creative in how you're connecting with the
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Well, my daughter, Scout, she does jujitsu at Gracie Tulsa here and the head guy-
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That's crazy because you haven't told me that she was training.
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I know you were intrigued with jujitsu because of all this art of manliness stuff you've done
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with us, but that's amazing and you couldn't be in better hands.
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He's a black belt and crazy enough, he started in a Gracie garage of his own learning online
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through our university, Gracie University Online, learning from home with a bunch of
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They opened their school and then Robert had a successful technology job, quit his job
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after he reached, I don't know, three, 400 students.
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And now he runs one of our most successful schools.
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I can't believe that your daughter is at that school.
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Well, no, because you broke your back, my daughter's doing jujitsu.
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Because I broke my back, your daughter's doing jujitsu with the most awesome instructor and
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And we never know, Brett, how far the impact of a new connection will take us.
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But when you explore the full potential of your connection to the world, you never know
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We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
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I was moved to another principle and one is the pyramid principle.
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So I've noticed the logo on Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, there's a triangle.
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So how does the pyramid principle give you the upper hand in a fight?
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So in jujitsu, base is a very important concept.
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And if you look at a pyramid structure, right, with its solid foundation, it's the most stable
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It's not going to get tipped over in any direction.
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This is what we aim to accomplish in jujitsu as well.
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No matter what position we're in, we always want to spread out our base points, right?
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Typically three or four points of contact with the surface or the person that we're opposing.
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If you have, talk about, you know, if you have a, if you have two, if you have a, let's
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say someone standing on two feet, they're very pushable in forward or backwards, right?
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They might be stable from side to side if you spread your base out, but you're pushable,
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Where when you add a third base point, let's say you put your hand down like a, like a center
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That he has his hand on the ground and two feet on the ground.
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That person is more connected and more grounded, has a stronger foundation than someone who
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Same is true if you put two hands on the ground, now you're even more stable.
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So the pyramid principle essentially translates to life and business in reminding us and encouraging
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us to build a strong foundation in whatever we're going to do.
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And you give a lot of examples in the book of how people can create that firm foundation.
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You talk about developing qualities like resilience, confidence, a strong moral compass,
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because those things, they can serve you well, no matter the situation you find yourself
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But creating a firm foundation could be something like developing an emergency fund, right?
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So you'll be ready for whatever financial curveball life throws at you.
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And you also talk about applying the pyramid principle in your career or in your business
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by developing new skills, or if you own a business, developing another revenue stream.
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It's like adding those new skills or those new revenue streams.
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It's like putting that third contact point on the mat.
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And just a general concept of having a strong foundation.
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There are no shortage of analogies and hypotheticals and examples that illustrate the importance
00:25:31.560
But it's just, again, in jiu-jitsu, it's critical.
00:25:35.220
And in life and business, those who develop the strongest foundations often have the highest
00:25:42.800
So sometimes, you know, my daughter will want to grapple with me to show me what she's learning.
00:25:48.500
Like this little nine-year-old girl will put me in this position, like a mount position,
00:25:54.820
I'm this, you know, 200-pound dude who, you know, power lifts, and I can't move because
00:26:00.080
she's done something where I, and it's because she's got these different contact points to
00:26:04.680
the ground that gives her the strong foundation.
00:26:08.060
Yeah, it's amazing what a little body can do with the right leverage.
00:26:12.500
Another principle or two principles are about timing.
00:26:17.980
You have this great story that goes along with it that applies outside the mat.
00:26:20.680
But how do you use timing in jiu-jitsu in a fight on the mat?
00:26:25.440
Well, what we always say, Brett, is the right move at the wrong time is the wrong move.
00:26:29.920
So it's one thing to learn the steps of a technique, right?
00:26:37.080
Applying that at the wrong time is as good as applying the wrong technique.
00:26:40.360
So timing is literally everything when it comes to jiu-jitsu.
00:26:44.600
I think the same could be said about life, right?
00:26:48.780
When you're bringing something to market, right?
00:26:54.220
And then just in terms of personal relationships, right?
00:26:57.240
When you choose to have a certain conversation with your significant other or your child,
00:27:04.140
So the right conversation at the right time is euphoric.
00:27:08.460
The right conversation at the wrong time is an absolute disaster.
00:27:11.920
We've all been guilty of trying to have the right conversation,
00:27:15.360
but doing it at the wrong time and then paying the price.
00:27:17.140
So I have one extreme example that I think illustrates this principle beautifully.
00:27:21.940
We have a student here who's a psychologist and she said,
00:27:24.700
Henner, I have a student, I have a client rather,
00:27:27.240
that suffers from a very severe case of social anxiety.
00:27:30.520
He's a teenage boy named Shane and the kid suffers from severe social anxiety
00:27:36.000
such that anytime he's going to be in a social situation that he's nervous about,
00:27:40.020
he vomits profusely before going into school or before going anywhere
00:27:46.880
I think jujitsu would be great for him, the doctor said.
00:27:55.380
I purposely set it up at a time where there's no one in the building, right?
00:28:00.240
And at Thursday, classes at four o'clock, I think it was like four, five, four, 10, four, 15.
00:28:10.000
In my mind, I'm thinking it's number one, it's already after four o'clock.
00:28:16.160
She says, well, we're outside in the parking lot, but Shane's not coming in.
00:28:20.800
And I said, you're outside our building right now?
00:28:33.720
Mom is standing outside the car and he's sitting inside the backseat on the passenger side,
00:28:39.500
crying profusely, like the most aggressive abdominal cry you've ever heard.
00:28:47.080
Every time he cries, he's bending over like hysterical crying.
00:28:58.240
She's outside the car standing on the curb, on the sidewalk.
00:29:53.720
Like, as if we know each other, we're talking in a very casual, relaxed way.
00:29:56.800
And I feel that, wow, there's a connection here now.
00:30:04.540
Then I say to him, I said, hey, bro, I know it was hard getting here.
00:30:09.160
But I would like to give you a tour of the facility if you'd let me.
00:30:12.300
Would you come inside with me so I can show you around?
00:30:21.720
And in my mind, Brett, all I'm thinking is, if I do not do jujitsu with this guy today,
00:30:28.320
like do a technique, like get him on the mat, I will never get him back.
00:30:31.640
But if I do get him on the mat and we do do jujitsu, we're going to get him for life.
00:30:40.660
And all that's crossing my mind is, how am I going to get this guy to do jujitsu?
00:30:44.880
Because if I ask him, hey, do you want to do jujitsu?
00:30:54.100
We pass by one of the private training rooms, the personal training rooms, which is just an empty room,
00:30:58.220
you know, 12 by 12 feet with mats on all the walls.
00:31:01.200
And I open the door and I step in and I step on the mats without my shoes on, bare feet.
00:31:05.420
I'm stepping on the mats and I say, Shane, check this out.
00:31:31.460
And I say, hey, bro, how would you escape if someone was on top of you like this?
00:31:53.840
I showed him six or seven different techniques.
00:31:56.280
His mom is sitting in the corner of the room with tears coming down her eyes, not saying
00:32:03.000
And him and I are just enjoying jujitsu together.
00:32:17.080
As I was walking through, when I opened the room and I had my one chance, I took it.
00:32:25.320
Once I got them in the room, got them down with all the love in my heart.
00:32:29.940
I knew he would love it because I've been doing this forever.
00:32:35.440
The next time he came back to the school, it only took me 15 minutes to get him out of the car.
00:32:39.360
And the third time, it only took seven minutes.
00:32:43.120
On the second or third visit, he got out of the car.
00:32:45.780
He threw up and then came out, got his gi on and went to the class.
00:32:52.320
Got him involved with another instructor here who became his main instructor for several years.
00:32:56.400
He started doing group classes with other students, which was totally unexpected by his mom and his father.
00:33:03.220
And then he ended up graduating high school, moved away, went to college, lived a normal life.
00:33:12.680
But then also, like you said, find those moments where you have to speed things up and take advantage of the moment.
00:33:23.180
And this is a trait that pretty much every successful entrepreneur has is this balance between knowing when to wait and knowing when to fire.
00:33:34.320
If you're successful as an entrepreneur, you've had so many encounters where you've had to be careful in your timing.
00:33:43.140
A hundred percent, both as a jiu-jitsu teacher, but also in my other businesses.
00:33:49.280
And jiu-jitsu teaches us that every day you come to class.
00:33:52.740
When a move doesn't work, when a technique fails in deployment, a physical technique, it's either because you did the move wrong or you did it at the wrong time.
00:34:05.360
And it's usually very easy to identify which of those two it was.
00:34:09.900
And with that, guess what's happening every time you're doing jiu-jitsu?
00:34:13.580
You're increasing your respect and appreciation for timing in a fight and in life.
00:34:19.920
Now, I love that, what you said, that the right move at the wrong time is the wrong move.
00:34:30.440
What does that look like on the mat and outside the mat?
00:34:33.720
Yeah, Kazushi is the literal breaking of someone's balance.
00:34:39.660
So the implications in jiu-jitsu are, you know, I guess self-explanatory.
00:34:43.500
We're always trying to break the balance, right?
00:34:45.800
If someone has a pyramid principle, they're trying to maintain their balance.
00:34:49.360
Kazushi is the process of trying to destabilize someone else's pyramid, if that makes sense.
00:34:54.340
So now one thing to understand about the Kazushi principle is that you can't break the balance without understanding the balance, if that makes sense.
00:35:06.000
So you must first understand what makes something structurally sound to then be able to efficiently craft a counterattack or a balance-breaking maneuver that would overcome their sound balance, right?
00:35:24.140
You can't break the balance that you do not understand.
00:35:26.840
So the Kazushi principle for me, as I consider its life application, I think of all the times where I sought first to understand, then to be understood.
00:35:39.820
Whether it's business negotiations, whether it's damage control, you know, with the customer service, whether it's marriage or relationship with your parent, child, spouse, if you want to be understood and win someone over to your way of thinking, you must first understand where are they?
00:36:01.540
What constitutes their position right now, their balance, their base?
00:36:06.620
What is the structure on which they're standing?
00:36:09.560
What is the ideas and the core beliefs on which their position has been taken?
00:36:18.520
Otherwise, if you don't know where they're currently positioned, then your attempt to essentially break their balance, and not even in a negative way, even in a positive way, to guide their mentality and guide their beliefs towards one that more effectively, you know, relate to yours.
00:36:37.300
You can't do that unless you know where they're at.
00:36:39.140
And we had a situation here where a mom, a mom named Myra and her daughter Miranda, Myra brought her daughter in for class.
00:36:46.880
She was, I think, four or five years old, young daughter, first day, first class in jujitsu, and she had a terrible experience.
00:36:56.320
Nobody noticed that it was her first day, so she got paired up with another girl who wasn't a great partner, and the mom was sweating bullets on the sidelines and was very frustrated that no one was there.
00:37:06.040
And basically, everything we could have done wrong that first day, we did wrong.
00:37:08.780
And I can say that confidently because we don't do those mistakes anymore, and we actually run an incredible business and kids program.
00:37:15.840
But that day, the instructor who was teaching let the ball drop, and as a result, this new little girl who was in the class, Miranda, had a negative experience.
00:37:24.240
The mom went on Yelp and just shredded us with a one-star Yelp review.
00:37:30.000
So when I see this Yelp, I wasn't at the class.
00:37:36.360
So when I saw that, I said, hey, I need to call this mom.
00:37:38.800
So I got the phone number from our reception staff.
00:37:41.340
I called the mom, and I said, Myra, this is Henner from Gracie University.
00:37:45.100
We had never even met because it was after her first class, and I wasn't there.
00:37:49.000
I said, I understand that you had a less than favorable introductory experience for your daughter, and I'd like to know about what happened from your perspective.
00:37:56.600
Well, well, you know, well, thank you for calling, and, well, I didn't expect someone to call me, but, yeah, I'm happy to share my experience.
00:38:05.520
Already she was caught off guard by my approach and by the fact that I truly wanted to understand where she was at before proposing any solutions or resolution to this.
00:38:21.900
Where are you, and what happened, and how do you feel about it?
00:38:24.740
It started with her, and I'll tell you, Brett, she opened up big time on her feelings, on what she perceived to be wrong with how the class was administered, everything you could imagine she shared with me.
00:38:36.300
And when she was done spilling everything, and she was not sharing this stuff with anger in her voice.
00:38:42.760
She was sharing it as a concerned mother and someone who really wanted to provide profound feedback so that this wouldn't happen to other families, and I really appreciated that perspective.
00:38:52.900
I was inquisitive because I wanted to learn and grow from this.
00:38:55.920
So at the end, I said, Myra, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share your thoughts on this experience.
00:39:02.620
And because you're sharing it, this will never happen to any other kid ever.
00:39:07.620
Already, after reading this, I've gotten ideas for how I want to change how classes are administered so this never happens again.
00:39:13.420
I said, But more importantly for right now, I feel like because of our mistakes, your daughter, who you wanted to empower with jiu-jitsu, didn't get the introduction to jiu-jitsu that she deserved.
00:39:29.820
What I propose, if you'll accept it, is that I would like to give your daughter a one-on-one personal introduction to jiu-jitsu so that she can get the introduction she deserves and that you wanted for her.
00:39:45.920
And if you would like to join her in the class, you're absolutely permitted to do that.
00:39:53.360
So I would love to have both there if you would be willing.
00:40:02.860
In fact, the reason I brought my daughter is because I always wanted to do jiu-jitsu, but I never was able to when I was younger.
00:40:12.880
So now that I'm a mom and I can afford to bring her, I'm bringing her because I was never able to.
00:40:22.940
So we did the class and I brought one of my assistant instructors, Bobby, a female instructor of ours, into the class with me.
00:40:30.000
So we taught two of us with two of them, had the best time.
00:40:33.320
And at the end of the class, I said, you guys, how did you like it?
00:40:39.240
I would like to sponsor your month, a full month of private classes with Bobby so that you guys can get off on the right start here and build the solid foundation of the basics in a personal one-on-one setting.
00:40:53.300
And then after that, if you want to go back and do the group classes with all the changes we've implemented, you're going to love them.
00:40:58.780
But I think classes with Bobby would be a great start.
00:41:06.680
And it turned a one-star Yelp review into a five-star Yelp review and they turned into lifelong customers.
00:41:12.940
So you threw that mom off balance by responding.
00:41:15.400
And you did it, you responded really positively or politely to her, to her negative review.
00:41:20.200
Because nobody expects to have their negative review responded to, let alone responded to in such a positive manner.
00:41:29.960
And then in doing so, you managed to turn something negative for your business and for this person into something positive.
00:41:37.940
As you're describing that, it seems like you did the Kazushi principle with Shane as well, right?
00:41:44.260
It might have been maladaptive, but it was working for him.
00:41:47.320
And you had to figure out like, where's this guy at?
00:41:49.480
So that you could put him off balance in a positive way and get him on the mat.
00:41:53.920
And it seems like this Kazushi principle and the clock principle are connected.
00:41:58.620
I imagine in jujitsu, you have to maybe spend some time to figure out what's this guy doing?
00:42:04.400
What's he got going on in this space so that I can put him off balance?
00:42:10.500
Sometimes, I mean, with this mother and daughter, it took some time.
00:42:14.440
Like you had to use that clock principle so that you could get her off balance.
00:42:20.500
And you're totally right in that many of these principles, they coexist and they're applied side by side.
00:42:27.640
And sometimes one technique will have four or five principles applied to it.
00:42:37.100
And one technique may consist of three, five principles in the same exact technique.
00:42:43.120
And you're totally right that there may be some degree of Kazushi in dealing with Shane.
00:42:49.940
And there may be some degree of the clock and velocity principle in how I dealt with Myra and Miranda.
00:42:56.260
And there's many of these stories in the book where we kind of highlight the main principle.
00:43:00.580
But yes, just like you're doing now, automatically, you start making your own connections and going,
00:43:05.520
wow, that story also included sprinkled elements of these three other principles.
00:43:08.580
And when you start thinking about it in that way, you've become the principles of Jiu-Jitsu.
00:43:14.480
All right, so let's talk about one more principle, and that's the river principle.
00:43:21.140
When the water is flowing down the river and the rock presents itself,
00:43:27.720
the water doesn't bother with where the rock is.
00:43:39.140
In Jiu-Jitsu, this is so important because so often, Brett, precisely what you have planned
00:43:46.920
to do to your opponent is neutralized by the fact that they see it coming and they change
00:43:54.560
their behavior to prevent your technique from being effective.
00:43:57.960
And when that obstacle is presented, you have two choices.
00:44:02.920
One is to confront that obstacle head-on, clashing with it, and try to overcome it with brute force,
00:44:13.220
Or when the obstacle presents itself, the immediate question should surface of,
00:44:17.640
okay, great, one door closes, the other one opens.
00:44:19.720
Where is the opportunity in adversity right now?
00:44:22.840
And if you think about people, organizations, nations, why is it that some people struggle
00:44:38.060
When we talk about a personal obstacle, an organizational setback, or a national health crisis like COVID,
00:44:46.780
Why is it that some organizations kind of suffer and drown while other organizations flourish and thrive
00:44:59.660
Because the individuals and organizations and nations that thrive tend to focus on what is the opportunity
00:45:09.140
in that adversity instead of focusing on the obstacle in that adversity.
00:45:13.960
In jiu-jitsu, this is something I do every single day.
00:45:18.860
When something doesn't work, right away, my first question is,
00:45:21.360
well, what opportunity is now available as a result of this previous opportunity no longer being available?
00:45:36.180
So what a beautiful concept to have learned and to reinforce in every day of practice on the mat.
00:45:46.000
Yeah, I think we've all experienced the river principle in our lives at some point.
00:45:51.200
Like when I, I have those moments where I hit some obstacle or challenge,
00:45:54.580
and my initial response is just to like bang my head against the thing over and over again,
00:45:59.560
thinking that my increased efforts will solve the problem.
00:46:04.960
And when I learned how to adapt to the obstacle, that's when I start making progress again.
00:46:08.580
And an example from my own life here is like, I used to be really serious about powerlifting.
00:46:17.460
But a few years ago, I started having some injuries just from getting old and things like that.
00:46:22.700
And my initial response was, I had to figure out how to make my regular powerlifting routine work.
00:46:29.420
And I tried and I tried and it just ended up, caused me to just be frustrated.
00:46:34.040
And I eventually realized I got to adapt to my new circumstance.
00:46:40.200
I've, I'm doing different lifts, but I'm still training for overall strength.
00:46:44.580
Well, Henner Gracie, this has been a great conversation.
00:46:46.860
Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:46:49.660
So the book, it publishes on August 22nd and is available everywhere books are sold.
00:46:55.680
If you want to watch the introduction to the book, you can go to a website,
00:46:59.440
the32principles.com forward slash book, the32principles.com, 32 spelt out as a number,
00:47:14.560
Jocko Willink, the Navy SEAL, former Navy SEAL and entrepreneur, author extraordinaire,
00:47:19.620
was kind enough to do the forward for the book as a jujitsu, avid jujitsu practitioner himself.
00:47:24.800
And then of course, there's links there to all the different platforms where you can
00:47:32.980
I appreciate the opportunity to come on here, Brett.
00:47:35.500
Congrats on all the success over all these years.
00:47:38.060
It's been great to watch you guys grow as well.
00:47:46.740
He's the author of the book, The 32 Principles.
00:47:48.920
It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:47:51.340
You can find more information about the book at the website, the32principles.com.
00:47:55.060
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash bjjprinciples, where you can find links
00:47:59.140
to resources, where you delve deeper into this topic.
00:48:04.380
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:48:07.240
Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives,
00:48:11.060
as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything
00:48:15.340
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00:48:22.300
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00:48:26.280
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00:48:29.840
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