The Art of Manliness - Increase Your Influence With the Science of Immersion

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.500 Why are so many social, business, and classroom interactions so dang dull?

00:00:16.060 This state of affairs isn't only a bummer for those on the receiving end of these underwhelming

00:00:19.780 experiences, but those offering them too.

00:00:22.360 It means that people are failing to connect with others, teachers are failing to impart

00:00:25.800 knowledge, and salespeople are failing to make sales.

00:00:28.340 Because when you don't engage people, you don't influence them.

00:00:31.720 My guest says that the secret to making an impact on others is learning to turn ordinary

00:00:35.680 experiences into extraordinary ones through the science of immersion.

00:00:39.420 Dr. Paul Zak is a professor, scientist, and the author of Immersion.

00:00:43.500 Today on the show, Paul shares what he's learned from decades of neuroscience research on how

00:00:47.380 to create immersive experiences that'll set you apart as an individual or business and

00:00:51.880 increase your influence.

00:00:53.140 We discuss the elements that create immersion, what goes on in the brain when it occurs, how

00:00:57.100 long it can last, and how to induce immersion, whether you want to teach a more engaging

00:01:00.840 class, wow your customers, or simply make everyday interactions with friends and family more

00:01:05.680 memorable.

00:01:06.680 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash immersion.

00:01:10.220 Paul Zak, welcome to the show.

00:01:26.540 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:01:27.700 So you've spent your career studying why people or why certain things engage us more emotionally

00:01:36.220 and spurs to action while others don't.

00:01:40.260 What led you down this research path and how did your career end up having you research,

00:01:44.680 doing research for the U.S. military?

00:01:46.720 So there's an honest answer and a dishonest answer.

00:01:49.140 Which one would you like?

00:01:50.440 I like the, I want the story, the dishonest one.

00:01:52.760 How about that?

00:01:53.260 That's always the more fun one, right?

00:01:54.600 The dishonest one is the DMV.

00:01:56.520 You've been to the DMV.

00:01:57.900 Yes.

00:01:58.300 You've been to, I don't know, Walmart.

00:02:00.480 Or, you know, I mean, why do we have so many experiences in our life that are sucky, right?

00:02:05.620 Why isn't everything fabulous?

00:02:07.240 Why isn't everything like the first date with the person you fall in love with or an amazing

00:02:12.320 meal?

00:02:13.400 So, you know, if you talk to businesses, they all agree customer experience is really

00:02:17.860 important.

00:02:19.600 But most of that is terrible.

00:02:21.260 So the first, you know, dishonest answer is I'm just fascinated that we cannot figure

00:02:27.380 out how to wow people every time we have an interaction, whether that's social, whether

00:02:33.280 it's in person.

00:02:34.120 Why is so much stuff mundane and dull?

00:02:36.260 So that's the dishonest answer.

00:02:37.840 The honest answer is that I'm a Martian and I find the human species to be extraordinarily

00:02:43.600 interesting.

00:02:44.420 And we began to study why people are nice to each other, which seems to be like a weird

00:02:52.600 outstanding trait of the humans, right?

00:02:55.020 That we cooperate most of the time.

00:02:56.560 I mean, you know, the bad behavior gets in the news, but basically we're pretty nice to

00:02:59.840 each other almost all the time.

00:03:02.340 Why?

00:03:03.360 Right?

00:03:03.660 Isn't nature red in tooth and claw?

00:03:05.620 Shouldn't we be grabbing resources and anything we want from each other and murdering each other 0.93

00:03:10.780 at a high rate?

00:03:11.820 We really don't.

00:03:13.000 And so we started doing this work, made some progress, and then the U.S. military and some

00:03:18.780 other agencies of the U.S. government with letters that I shouldn't mention started funding

00:03:23.500 us to ask us to identify signals in the brain that in combination would accurately and consistently

00:03:31.260 predict what people would do after a message or an experience.

00:03:34.820 That's a mouthful.

00:03:35.540 What's that mean?

00:03:36.300 They wanted us to build a neurologic prediction engine in order to train soldiers to have a

00:03:41.260 new superpower called persuasion.

00:03:43.680 So if I could understand from a brain perspective what will motivate you to take an action, then

00:03:49.900 I can influence that action.

00:03:52.220 And that's what we all do all the time, right?

00:03:53.700 We're social creatures.

00:03:54.700 We're constantly influencing those around us, whether we know it or not.

00:03:59.160 So my view is we might as well be as good as possible at influence by understanding the

00:04:03.880 factors that promote or inhibit people to cooperate with us.

00:04:07.400 So in your book, Immersion, you share this research you've done in a very easy-to-read,

00:04:13.740 reader-friendly way.

00:04:15.300 And you explain the neuroscience of what makes certain activities, certain moments in life

00:04:22.340 really engaging or just lights us up and causes us to take action.

00:04:25.700 And you say one of the key features is that these moments, they're extraordinary experiences

00:04:31.500 that put us into a state of immersion.

00:04:34.920 So let's talk about definitions first.

00:04:36.380 Like how do you define what's an extraordinary experience?

00:04:38.680 And then what do you mean by the state of immersion?

00:04:41.680 Right.

00:04:42.180 So there's a real dilemma when we started doing this work, which is if I ask you to rate an

00:04:48.460 experience like, I don't know, the cup of coffee you had this morning, how good was

00:04:53.220 that on one to seven scale?

00:04:55.340 Well, compared to what?

00:04:56.760 You know, I always say like, compared to my kids, my kids talk back to me, forget my

00:05:00.200 kids.

00:05:00.440 My dog's perfect.

00:05:01.260 My dog's always a seven, right?

00:05:03.060 But I can't compare my dog to coffee.

00:05:04.860 And so if we ask people to consciously report what they think they like, it predicts nothing.

00:05:11.440 It doesn't predict movie ticket sales.

00:05:13.020 Otherwise, every movie will be a hit, right?

00:05:14.440 Just ask people, do you like this movie?

00:05:15.580 Great.

00:05:15.800 We'll edit it till you like it.

00:05:17.260 Every book would be a hit.

00:05:19.300 So we went with what we can see.

00:05:22.760 We gave people an experience and then we allowed them to do something that was difficult or costly.

00:05:28.680 So for example, we showed them a public service announcement about some social ill.

00:05:33.680 And we were taking blood before and after.

00:05:36.240 Look at changes in neurochemicals.

00:05:37.400 So we paid people like 40 bucks.

00:05:39.440 At the end, we said, by the way, do you want to donate some money to American Cancer Society

00:05:43.460 or whatever?

00:05:44.360 And we just compared brain activity for people who did something after an experience versus

00:05:49.560 those who did not.

00:05:50.940 So our assumption was, if this experience was so exciting to your brain that it provoked

00:05:57.220 you to do something difficult, it must have been really extraordinary.

00:06:01.220 And then we worked back from there.

00:06:02.780 And in doing that, we discovered this neurologic state of called immersion, which is a set

00:06:08.820 of neurologic signals from the brain.

00:06:10.800 So it's brain data that's associated with being present, right?

00:06:15.280 The experience is not going to be great if I'm distracted, if I'm not able to be fully

00:06:18.880 present.

00:06:19.840 And with the emotional value of that experience.

00:06:22.960 So if I'm here, I'm present, and this experience is emotionally compelling to me, those two things

00:06:28.980 together tell me that this experience is valuable.

00:06:32.000 And that neurologic immersion is a continuous variable.

00:06:35.700 So it can be low, it's an okay thing, or it can be really high.

00:06:39.340 Oh, I love this a lot.

00:06:40.480 This is the best thing ever.

00:06:42.440 And so by being able to quantify neurologically, second by second, the value that people's brains

00:06:49.100 assigned to an experience, we can work backwards.

00:06:51.980 And this is what the book Immersion does, is to take 50,000 plus brain observations and

00:06:57.540 say, well, how do I create a great message as a marketer?

00:07:01.400 How do I create a great movie?

00:07:02.760 How do I create a great hit song?

00:07:04.620 So we've learned so much from people measuring those activities so that we can create more

00:07:10.540 of what people really love.

00:07:11.860 Isn't that what we want in the world?

00:07:13.340 That's what I want.

00:07:14.080 So what are you looking at in the brain to measure this immersion state?

00:07:18.820 Because as you said, I want to talk more about this.

00:07:20.900 Self-reporting isn't useful.

00:07:22.780 So you say you like something, but it actually didn't engage you.

00:07:25.840 So what are you looking at?

00:07:27.180 What are you actually measuring to figure out whether someone's in this immersive state

00:07:31.060 or not?

00:07:31.920 Yeah, great question.

00:07:33.160 And again, we're doing this all the time, right?

00:07:35.020 We try to assess, should I get out with that guy or girl?

00:07:38.080 Should I buy that sport coat?

00:07:40.500 We're really trying to assess our own preferences.

00:07:42.760 But those preferences, Miter Lab and many others have shown, are deep in the unconscious

00:07:47.720 areas of the brain.

00:07:48.720 So they're not really open to conscious awareness, at least not very clearly.

00:07:52.560 So we found this immersive state is associated with the brain's binding of a neurochemical

00:07:56.900 called dopamine that probably most listeners have heard of that's associated with things

00:08:01.520 like risk-taking and reward.

00:08:03.540 It's the same chemical that drugs of abuse like cocaine and methamphetamine increase a million

00:08:09.260 fold in your brain.

00:08:10.540 So first thing all, it's this arousal chemical.

00:08:12.180 Well, I've got to be turned on by this thing so that I'm present.

00:08:15.560 And the second neurochemical is called oxytocin, which is that emotional resonance, like how

00:08:20.020 valuable is this to me emotionally?

00:08:21.720 So if I have this kind of arousal state, dopamine, and I'm getting emotional value from this,

00:08:27.560 that combination together, the dance of those two neurochemicals induces electrical activity

00:08:32.480 that we can measure with big $100,000 machines or now with things like smartwatches while

00:08:39.520 applying algorithms in the cloud.

00:08:41.540 So it allows us to actually quantify second by second when something is good or bad.

00:08:47.160 So can I give a concrete example?

00:08:48.580 Because this sounds like we're at 30,000 feet.

00:08:50.240 Yeah, perfect.

00:08:50.700 So we built a platform so that anybody can measure what the brain loves.

00:08:56.920 And one of our longest term subscribers to the platform is the professional services company,

00:09:01.720 Accenture.

00:09:02.840 And they have found in the $1 billion they spend a year on corporate training that their employees

00:09:09.380 cannot stay immersed in training for more than 20 minutes.

00:09:12.960 So if I want to get this information in your brain, Immersion says it's important, important

00:09:18.780 information to save in the brain in a way that makes it easily accessible.

00:09:22.820 Accenture has now broken down their training into 20-minute segments so that they get the

00:09:28.160 most impact for the money they spend on training.

00:09:32.360 I don't know why it's 20 minutes, why it's not 18 or 22, but they found around 20 minutes,

00:09:37.160 your brain is fatigued, you need a break.

00:09:39.040 So brain cells are just like muscle cells.

00:09:41.140 They fatigue with use and Immersion is really metabolically costly.

00:09:45.400 So if I'm going to influence you, if I want to get information in your head, I've got to

00:09:48.920 give you this intensive and generally short experience so that the information is categorized,

00:09:55.040 put in your brain, and then potentially influences your behavior.

00:09:58.440 So this is really the science of influence.

00:10:00.880 Okay, so when we are experiencing an immersive moment, there's dopamine.

00:10:05.100 Our dopamine levels rise because this thing is grabbing our attention.

00:10:08.040 But then also combined with that, oxytocin levels rise as well.

00:10:12.420 And oxytocin, I think people have heard it as like the nurturing molecule.

00:10:15.020 It's like the thing that helps us bond to people.

00:10:17.880 But you're saying it also helps us experience that emotional, like it makes the event we're

00:10:23.160 experiencing emotionally salient to us.

00:10:27.020 Correct.

00:10:28.060 Right.

00:10:28.500 And so it's both those kinds of things.

00:10:30.560 And again, those activate large networks in the brain.

00:10:33.380 What we found is that if we grab data from the brain's output file, which is these 12 cranial

00:10:38.520 nerves that come out of your head and send information to the rest of your body, I can grab a huge

00:10:42.960 amount of information, networked information from the brain.

00:10:46.280 And that was the real breakthrough that we made about 10 years ago is that as opposed to putting

00:10:51.220 you in an MRI scanner or putting a big, you know, EEG cap on your head, that we can actually

00:10:56.220 grab these data from your cranial nerves and get really good signal where we're able to

00:11:01.240 predict things like hit songs through months in advance with 97% accuracy using immersion

00:11:06.040 or predict mood in the elderly with 98% accuracy.

00:11:11.080 So we're really capturing, I'm going to use one bad word, I hope that's okay.

00:11:14.800 Today, I'm really capturing what one of our subscribers, the software platform called the

00:11:19.180 give a measure.

00:11:20.920 So because the brain is so metabolically costly, so energy hungry, it wants to just cruise most

00:11:27.200 of the time.

00:11:27.900 So when we see this neurologic state immersion, it's really expending a lot of metabolic energy.

00:11:33.120 So the brain is investing all this energy to process this experience.

00:11:38.080 And that's why it's valuable to us.

00:11:40.620 The brain goes, wow, this is the best thing ever.

00:11:43.240 Or give me more of this.

00:11:45.380 So again, think of that, you know, gorgeous guy or girl you see walking down the street,

00:11:49.760 you're like, whoa, this is, how did nature create this amazing creature?

00:11:54.480 Or I don't know, the best meal, I just came from South Africa.

00:11:57.900 I had one of the best meals of my life, a two hour dinner, course after course, this chef's

00:12:03.800 testing, tasting menu.

00:12:05.820 And it was amazing, right?

00:12:07.060 Just mind-blowingly good.

00:12:09.180 And I was just, you know, totally immersed the entire time.

00:12:11.980 And so, you know, give me more of that.

00:12:14.680 Okay.

00:12:14.860 So by knowing this, this immersion idea and that there's this dopamine and the oxytocin,

00:12:20.080 as you said, you can reverse engineer this to create more engaging experiences.

00:12:23.840 Let's talk about this.

00:12:24.540 Like a lot of things in our life, they grab our attention, right?

00:12:27.360 We all have smartphones and there's things that we, when we're scrolling through, it grabs

00:12:31.620 our attention, but they don't, they're not emotionally resonant.

00:12:35.940 So what's going on there?

00:12:37.480 Why, why are some things, you know, they grab our attention, but they don't emotionally

00:12:40.960 resonate.

00:12:41.420 So like what, what makes an attention grabbing moment have that oxytocin boost as well?

00:12:47.660 Right.

00:12:47.860 So I, that's a good question.

00:12:49.300 So let's, let's go to two answers on that.

00:12:51.660 So one is if I grab your attention, but I don't get any emotional value from it, I call

00:12:56.780 that state frustration.

00:12:57.660 Like I want this YouTube ad to be great, but after six seconds, I hover over the skip and

00:13:03.560 I want to go away or, you know, some, I don't know, new show, whatever it is, right?

00:13:07.980 It just, it's just frustrating.

00:13:09.040 Like I'm here, I'm present.

00:13:10.460 I got the dopamine effect, but just not getting much value out of this.

00:13:14.940 So the second question is like, how do I do that?

00:13:19.160 What we found now in measuring just tons and tons of experiences is that if I use a narrative

00:13:25.760 arc, if I create tension, I have a human scale story, we are as social creatures fascinated

00:13:32.140 by the other humans.

00:13:33.840 And that's why movies are not going away.

00:13:36.160 Novels are not going away.

00:13:37.760 We're really interested.

00:13:38.980 Podcasts like this are not going away.

00:13:40.620 We're really interested in what the other humans are doing and we can learn from them.

00:13:44.800 But if I craft that information as a story that is introducing characters who have a crisis

00:13:51.440 or mystery, who have to resolve that mystery, who have to do something often extraordinary

00:13:56.760 to do it, that seems to be the most effective way to sustain immersion.

00:14:01.680 So again, we all know this intuitively, right?

00:14:03.760 If we're, Brett, you and I are out at a bar at happy hour hanging out, we're going to be

00:14:07.520 telling stories to each other, right?

00:14:08.960 So, and that's essentially what we're doing right now on your podcast.

00:14:12.340 We're kind of telling stories.

00:14:13.400 I'm telling a little more technical story, but I'm still trying to craft that around a human

00:14:18.560 scale story.

00:14:19.420 So when we measure stories, like when we work with movie studios and TV networks, you can

00:14:26.360 see second by second when that story, by measuring immersion, when that story starts to lag.

00:14:31.420 Now, you don't want to be at 100% immersion all the time.

00:14:33.760 It's too exhausting.

00:14:34.620 You want to modulate immersion.

00:14:36.500 But even in our own daily lives for listeners, right?

00:14:39.580 Think about having, crafting a really effective story in three minutes, in five minutes.

00:14:45.800 It's got to be kind of tight.

00:14:46.980 It's got to open hot and you've got to get me in this story.

00:14:50.280 Open hot means, you know, grab that dopamine attentional response.

00:14:53.420 Like, oh, something new is happening here.

00:14:55.040 And now add in that social component, right?

00:14:58.260 That here's the crisis.

00:14:59.940 Here's the weird thing that happened to me.

00:15:01.220 Here's something that was unexpected that we had to overcome.

00:15:05.280 That narrative arc is really the most effective way to entertain, but also to influence people.

00:15:11.840 All right.

00:15:11.920 So to create immersive experiences, you have to tell a story.

00:15:15.560 Yeah, a good story.

00:15:16.640 A good story.

00:15:17.040 Not any story, but it's really got to be, you know, tight.

00:15:19.660 So, you know, think of comedians.

00:15:21.720 You know, they go to these clubs, they practice these comedy routines and small clubs over and

00:15:26.280 over and over until they've really tightened up the language of storytelling.

00:15:30.600 So we as, you know, civilians, you know, we just tell stories all the time kind of randomly.

00:15:35.900 But I would say if you want to influence others, and that's what human creatures do all the

00:15:40.280 time.

00:15:40.720 So just, you know, embrace that.

00:15:42.680 If you want to do it really well, craft that story, practice that story, you know, get it

00:15:47.240 really nailed down so that in particular, if you want to influence someone, you want that

00:15:52.720 call to action or that request to happen at an immersion peak.

00:15:57.120 So you want to craft your narrative so that there is a peak immersion, high attention,

00:16:02.740 high emotional resonance at this point where you've really captured this person emotionally,

00:16:08.040 and then you can move them in a direction that you'd like them to go in.

00:16:13.380 Now, people can always say no, right?

00:16:14.500 There's no coercion here.

00:16:15.360 There's no brainwashing.

00:16:16.480 There's no, you know, secret sauce here.

00:16:18.260 I'm not working for the North Koreans. 1.00

00:16:20.860 But if I'm going to try to influence you to do something that you can choose to say yes

00:16:25.320 or no to, I might as well do it as well as possible.

00:16:28.160 So when you're crafting a story, what causes those peak immersion moments?

00:16:32.520 Great question.

00:16:33.440 Lots of things.

00:16:34.360 One is authentic emotions.

00:16:36.000 So think of a movie, right?

00:16:37.340 You know, great acting.

00:16:38.760 You really extract the emotion.

00:16:40.520 They're not overacting.

00:16:41.780 They're subtlety.

00:16:43.000 You know, they're sort of Jack Nicholson, you know, really great acting.

00:16:47.220 If you're telling your own story, it's really showing your emotions.

00:16:49.900 So I, and I think a lot of guys tend to be not that emotional, but if I want to actually

00:16:55.160 influence you or entertain you, I actually need to express my emotions, right?

00:17:00.780 And so it doesn't mean I'm crying about something, but it means I'm, you know, really authentically

00:17:06.120 expressing how I feel.

00:17:08.120 So the cool thing about immersion is it's contagious, right?

00:17:10.880 If I'm excited about this experience, you tend to get excited about it too.

00:17:15.340 And so that's how social creatures influence each other.

00:17:18.560 So it's really believing in the story.

00:17:21.460 So the caveat to that is if you're making this up, if it's fictional, it's really hard

00:17:26.580 to tell a good lie because as social creatures, we're really good at picking up the unconscious

00:17:32.380 signals of people who are lying to us, right?

00:17:35.100 That happens all the time.

00:17:36.040 People lie.

00:17:37.100 So we've shown in lots of published scientific research that, you know, basically these signals

00:17:41.580 for uncertainty or weirdness, we see those in the brain.

00:17:46.140 We don't always consciously know it, but our brain knows it.

00:17:48.880 And we have that kind of innate sense, like, I don't know, this dude, something's wrong

00:17:52.720 with him, right?

00:17:53.360 I just don't get it.

00:17:54.660 I can't put my finger on it, but something feels off.

00:17:57.800 And that's a very important signal as well.

00:17:59.880 So again, if you want to influence someone or want to get that cute girl to go out with 0.87

00:18:05.040 you, you've got to be yourself, right?

00:18:07.080 And again, we sort of know that, but be yourself.

00:18:09.500 But craft that story, craft, rehearse that thing you want to say so that it's very natural.

00:18:16.860 So Brett, you know, I gave a talk at TED Talk about 10 years ago.

00:18:21.880 It's got a couple million views now.

00:18:23.580 And I had 10 months to craft that talk, right?

00:18:26.420 It's 18 minutes.

00:18:27.800 I did it over and over and over.

00:18:29.120 I workshopped it.

00:18:29.920 I got feedback.

00:18:31.240 I had people critique how it was standing, how it was moving.

00:18:34.160 I brought in props, right?

00:18:36.040 All that was, you know, 10 months of writing and practicing and rehearsing.

00:18:41.700 And, you know, and it got a standing ovation.

00:18:43.380 It went really, really well.

00:18:44.600 But that's how much prep, maybe not that much.

00:18:47.360 But, you know, a lot of prep is necessary to really craft a great narrative.

00:18:52.840 Okay.

00:18:53.060 So to tell a good story, you want to show authentic emotion.

00:18:56.780 You want to be sincere.

00:18:58.940 But paradoxically, I think a lot of people think that in order to be authentic or sincere,

00:19:03.900 it requires spontaneity, right?

00:19:05.440 You have to say things off the cuff.

00:19:07.420 But in order to say what you really feel, you often have to intentionally practice it

00:19:12.160 to express, you know, what you want to express instead of offering, you know, sort of jumbles

00:19:16.340 of incoherent, spontaneous thoughts.

00:19:19.520 So what else goes into an effective emerging producing story?

00:19:24.980 So it really is structure.

00:19:26.300 So kind of think of three things for listeners.

00:19:28.260 Just three things you can control that influence how much impact you will have on somebody.

00:19:32.480 That impact, again, could be just entertainment.

00:19:34.440 It could be influence.

00:19:35.760 It could be buying a product if you're a salesperson.

00:19:39.000 The first thing is setting the stage.

00:19:41.600 So you want to establish psychological safety.

00:19:43.700 I want this person to be relaxed, the person I want to interact with, right?

00:19:47.520 And so that means you've got to be relaxed, make sure they're comfortable.

00:19:50.780 They, you know, if you have a full bladder, that takes away neural bandwidth and you can't

00:19:54.380 listen to my story or my pitch, whatever it is.

00:19:57.100 So first, establish psychological safety.

00:19:59.120 Hey, how are you doing, Brett?

00:20:00.020 Great to see you.

00:20:01.060 Would you like a cup of coffee?

00:20:01.980 Yeah, have a seat.

00:20:02.660 Oh, it's going to be a fun conversation.

00:20:04.580 So establish psychological safety, number one.

00:20:06.800 Number two is think of structuring that content.

00:20:08.980 So use a narrative structure.

00:20:10.800 Have this tight structure with a hot open and have, if you want to influence someone,

00:20:14.700 a call to action at an immersion peak.

00:20:17.020 And the third is how you deliver that content, right?

00:20:20.180 So deliver it, as I said earlier, with energy, with your own excitement about it so that you

00:20:26.100 infect other people with your own immersion.

00:20:28.680 So establish psychological safety, structure the content, and then deliver the content with

00:20:33.740 immersion.

00:20:34.960 And that structure, I think the important thing you talked about, there has to be that sort

00:20:37.820 of tension where you think it's not going to be resolved, but then you do resolve it.

00:20:42.800 Exactly.

00:20:43.220 So again, for listeners, look at, just go online and pull up any old movie trailer, theatrical

00:20:49.740 movie trailer.

00:20:50.400 These are roughly around three minutes.

00:20:51.860 And you'll see that those movie trailers introduce characters.

00:20:55.560 They put them in a weird situation where those characters don't know what to do.

00:20:58.980 And then there's a crisis.

00:21:01.220 That's the peak immersion moment.

00:21:03.100 And then they don't tell you what happens after the crisis.

00:21:05.340 You have to buy a ticket to go and watch that movie or stream that movie to find out what

00:21:10.280 the heck happens.

00:21:10.940 That's a perfect structure for a call to action.

00:21:14.100 I don't want to resolve the conflict because now you have to pay to figure out what happens.

00:21:18.480 But there's always going to be a conflict.

00:21:20.180 If it's just flat, Bob and Sue showed up, they went to their classes in college, and then

00:21:25.820 they went home.

00:21:27.620 I don't care about that.

00:21:28.600 I'm not learning anything from that.

00:21:30.060 That's not new.

00:21:30.760 But they go to their classes, and then a bomb went off.

00:21:33.740 And then Bob couldn't find Sue.

00:21:35.500 And then all of a sudden, here's a sound.

00:21:37.160 Okay, now, holy crap, maybe once in my life, a bomb will go off, and I'll use this information,

00:21:43.880 this story, so I can learn what to do in that situation.

00:21:47.540 So I'm putting tension into it.

00:21:49.480 And in our normal lives, we avoid tension.

00:21:51.500 But in the storytelling space, we want to actually create tension in other people.

00:21:56.500 And we like that.

00:21:57.440 From the listener's perspective, we want tension.

00:22:00.320 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:22:02.340 And now back to the show.

00:22:07.060 And what's interesting, this story arc that you can use to create tension and create those

00:22:11.720 peak immersive moments, you can do this when you're doing a sales pitch, and we can talk

00:22:16.820 about some of the things you do when you're teaching, and you have a chapter on that.

00:22:20.020 But you can do this with events, with physical things you're actually doing.

00:22:23.900 I think of Disney World or Disneyland.

00:22:26.740 They do a great job of telling a story when you're going through an attraction.

00:22:31.700 Even when you're waiting in line, they're telling a story.

00:22:35.580 They're creating those narrative, those immersive moments, then it'll go down because you need

00:22:40.060 a break, and then it'll go back up, and then you go through the ride, and you have a completely

00:22:44.300 immersive experience.

00:22:46.020 Exactly right.

00:22:46.920 So if you think of the most famous rides at Disneyland or Disney World, like Space Mountain,

00:22:51.780 Space Mountain is just a roller coaster in the dark.

00:22:54.160 But it's wrapped around this amazing story of going to a space flight, and you're entering

00:22:59.820 into the space center, and you have to get on this ship.

00:23:02.960 And so, yeah, Disney was brilliant in wrapping the attraction around a story.

00:23:08.820 So I took a crew to Disneyland.

00:23:10.380 This is in the book.

00:23:11.520 And we found that, on average, for the eight or nine rides we went on at Disneyland, that

00:23:17.000 they were the 98th percentile, averaging 98th percentile compared to all other live experiences

00:23:23.000 we've measured.

00:23:23.580 So Disney is just nailing it.

00:23:26.680 And part of that was the queuing up.

00:23:29.240 As you're queuing up, you have so many things to look at and listen to and hear and smell.

00:23:33.540 And so they really create this experience where, again, they're kind of warming you up for

00:23:38.480 the big takeoff of that attraction.

00:23:40.940 So they're kind of, again, establishing that psychological safety.

00:23:44.040 They're intriguing you.

00:23:45.080 They're keeping you immersed.

00:23:47.120 So let's do this in our daily lives as much as possible.

00:23:49.780 Again, you don't want to just tell your family member or loved one, how's work today?

00:23:55.180 Great.

00:23:55.620 Nothing happened.

00:23:56.500 Well, that doesn't really tell your family member much.

00:23:59.280 But you say, you know, pretty good day.

00:24:01.580 And the most weirdest thing happened ever, a coyote walked into my office.

00:24:06.660 Okay, well, I'm interested. 0.98

00:24:08.360 Holy crap. 0.99

00:24:09.040 A coyote walked into your office? 0.99

00:24:10.600 I want to hear this story, right?

00:24:12.520 So, you know, think about giving people the information that is going to be most interesting

00:24:18.460 to them, right?

00:24:19.280 And when we're talking, when we have conversations just like this, you know, we wanted those

00:24:23.040 conversations to be interesting, engaging, immersive.

00:24:26.100 We want all those things to happen so that we learn something new.

00:24:29.220 And it's the new information that creates tension in a story.

00:24:33.020 As you were talking, it made me think about why Christmas is such an immersive holiday.

00:24:38.160 Because it's got a story.

00:24:39.080 It's got all these stories involved in it.

00:24:40.720 You've got, you know, of course, you get the nativity story.

00:24:43.340 But then there's like Santa Claus.

00:24:45.020 And you have all these things that, you know, peak your immersion.

00:24:47.860 And then you get to Christmas Eve, you're counting down.

00:24:50.020 There's like this tension.

00:24:51.040 And you don't know, like when you're a kid, it's like, well, is Santa going to come or

00:24:54.020 not?

00:24:54.140 And you wake up.

00:24:54.820 And it's just, our brain's getting hammered with oxytocin during Christmas time.

00:24:58.680 For sure.

00:24:59.420 And you have all those memories of the previous Christmases and all the amazing things that

00:25:03.960 happen.

00:25:04.420 And family and friends you saw on great gifts.

00:25:06.740 And so, because the brain is so energy hungry, those memories actually influence our immersion

00:25:14.380 in current events.

00:25:15.440 In other words, I'm actually kind of taking that immersion and putting it on steroids because

00:25:21.100 I have all these good experiences from the past that build up my immersion in the current

00:25:26.840 experience.

00:25:27.480 And that's why we want to repeat highly immersive experiences, whether it's dating that person

00:25:35.320 that you're crazy about, you want to see them over and over, whether it's going to Disneyland

00:25:39.020 again, shopping at a store.

00:25:41.920 I just mentioned I came back from South Africa.

00:25:43.780 So, 30 hours to get home for me.

00:25:46.080 The most amazing flight attendants who smiled, who just made my flight so interesting and nice

00:25:51.960 and couldn't have been better.

00:25:53.720 And you're just kind of beat up after all that time on airplanes and airports.

00:25:58.220 And yet, the people there made the experience so valuable for me.

00:26:01.660 So, shout out to United Airlines.

00:26:03.540 How would you make the DMV experience more immersive with this information that you've

00:26:08.440 garnered from your research?

00:26:10.000 That's a great question.

00:26:10.900 I think the first thing is greeting.

00:26:13.160 So, again, I want to establish psychological safety.

00:26:15.480 We're taking time off work.

00:26:16.880 We got to go there.

00:26:17.800 So, have a greeter out front, just like Walmart does.

00:26:20.760 Like, oh, hello, sir.

00:26:22.540 Can I get your name?

00:26:23.480 We'll get you checked in.

00:26:24.920 Oh, Mr. Zach, welcome to the DMV. 0.99

00:26:26.960 Oh, holy crap. 0.98

00:26:27.800 I would love that. 0.98

00:26:28.560 First of all, just that alone will make my experience better.

00:26:32.260 And then second, tell me what's going to happen, right?

00:26:34.120 Give me that kind of journey, that narrative about the journey.

00:26:38.020 So, we're going to have you check in at Windows 7.

00:26:40.020 Expect to wait between six and 10 minutes.

00:26:42.500 Thank you for making an appointment.

00:26:44.400 And then they're going to get you checked out.

00:26:46.500 So, you're getting your license renewed today.

00:26:47.940 So, we should be out of here in about 20, 25 minutes.

00:26:51.360 And my name is Bob.

00:26:52.220 If you have any questions, come talk to me anytime.

00:26:54.900 Wow, that would be great.

00:26:57.120 Now, the problem with the DMV, of course, is it's a government office.

00:26:59.500 And so, they don't have a profit incentive to keep me coming.

00:27:02.520 I have to come.

00:27:03.080 It's a monopoly, basically.

00:27:05.180 But, you know, think of how many stores you go in.

00:27:07.520 I was a store on Fifth Avenue in New York, Brett, I don't know, a couple years ago,

00:27:10.880 with my daughter shopping.

00:27:12.460 Some fancy, fancy store.

00:27:14.260 My daughter goes to the, my daughter's 20.

00:27:16.520 She goes to the women's section. 0.96

00:27:17.940 I look at the men's section.

00:27:19.160 And literally, there were three salesmen standing there, you know, grab-assing with each other

00:27:22.900 instead of saying hi to me.

00:27:24.720 I'm looking around.

00:27:25.800 You know, I'm dressed nice.

00:27:26.780 I have money.

00:27:27.980 Literally, one of the salespeople was like, you guys don't want to talk to me?

00:27:30.680 You don't want to try to sell me stuff?

00:27:31.760 Like, what's happening?

00:27:32.980 They all just looked at me, like, blankly.

00:27:34.560 And one guy finally said, what are you looking for?

00:27:36.460 I'm like, how about a sport coat?

00:27:37.780 What's new?

00:27:38.180 I mean, I had to beg them, as opposed to, hey, welcome to our store.

00:27:42.980 Yeah, my name's Paul.

00:27:44.940 You know, we have some amazing new sport coats in.

00:27:47.120 Just came in yesterday from Milan.

00:27:49.880 All right, you're telling me a story now, right?

00:27:51.680 I'm engaged in that.

00:27:52.960 So, you know, really think about the best way to communicate as storytelling.

00:27:57.340 Okay, so with an event like the DMV, you don't necessarily have to create, like, a fantastical

00:28:02.160 story like at Disneyland, where you have a queue and you're going through some kind of

00:28:06.360 cool Star Wars expedition, because people would just be turned out like, oh my gosh,

00:28:09.900 this is the DMV, what are you guys doing?

00:28:11.380 But it's just, the story could be like, here's what's going to happen on your journey during

00:28:15.280 the DMV.

00:28:15.880 You're going to wait in line here and you're going to go there.

00:28:18.040 Like, that's the story right there.

00:28:20.380 That's the story.

00:28:20.940 But how about every 50th customer, you're in a lottery for, I don't know, something awesome.

00:28:26.500 A free year of registration for your car, whatever.

00:28:31.220 Like, we want to actually make this, you know, we're going to gamify it.

00:28:34.220 So, gamification is really useful because it builds that tension.

00:28:37.740 We don't know who's going to get it.

00:28:39.220 We're all watching it.

00:28:40.720 Wouldn't that be great to have some kind of gamification at the DMV or any place?

00:28:45.000 I want to go back to this idea that this disconnect between us liking things and then us actually

00:28:50.180 being emotionally resonant to it.

00:28:52.940 And you did this, you found this with some Super Bowl commercial experiments you did.

00:28:56.300 So, you showed people Super Bowl commercials and asked them, what did you think about this

00:29:00.340 commercial?

00:29:00.720 And what you guys found was people would say they liked this one commercial, but if you

00:29:06.100 actually looked at their data from their brain, they actually weren't responding to it.

00:29:10.480 So, what's going on when we say we like something, but our brain is saying, is not really paying

00:29:16.360 attention to it?

00:29:17.060 Like, why do we like things that we're not really emotionally resonant with?

00:29:21.240 Yeah, the short answer is that people lie.

00:29:24.120 And people lie not because they're malicious, usually because they're nice.

00:29:27.700 And we're asking them this impossible question.

00:29:31.220 Again, liking compared to what?

00:29:32.980 It's untethered to anything that's objective.

00:29:36.220 So, when we started doing this work commercially, you know, I started getting that weird feeling

00:29:40.360 like, okay, I can do this in my lab, I can publish research, but if companies are paying

00:29:45.300 us a lot of money to help them create immersive experiences and measuring the experiences they've

00:29:50.220 already created, I want to make sure I'm really doing it right.

00:29:53.660 Yeah, so we started measuring Super Bowl commercials because we can measure this live.

00:29:57.740 We would go to a bar, we would arrange with a bar to, you know, have 50 people come in

00:30:02.840 and we'd buy them drinks and snacks and then measure the Super Bowl live while it's going.

00:30:08.800 And then also ask them, you know, which commercials?

00:30:10.940 We didn't care about the game, we care about the commercials, right?

00:30:13.360 This is, you know, the commercials are the apotheosis of advertising, right?

00:30:16.700 Super expensive.

00:30:17.500 They should be the best.

00:30:18.280 And those commercials are rated by USA Today newspaper every year.

00:30:23.160 So, we actually have that data.

00:30:24.400 And every year we have found a zero correlation between what people say they like in a commercial

00:30:29.040 and what is immersive to their brains.

00:30:32.240 Why?

00:30:33.280 Because things we like are things that are easy, things that are familiar.

00:30:36.880 And also, you know, we try to be nice.

00:30:39.000 We don't want to say stuff is awful generally, if you ask people like in a focus group.

00:30:44.620 Um, but there are a lot of commercials that are not really likable that really shake up

00:30:50.180 the brain.

00:30:51.220 So, to me, the return on the investment of advertising is, I shook up your brain so much

00:30:57.460 that information's stuck in there.

00:30:59.360 So, now when you go to the store or go to the car dealer, you remember that experience.

00:31:04.360 Immersive experiences are saved in the brain in a very special way because they have high

00:31:08.960 emotion that make them more easily recalled.

00:31:10.820 So, if I want to shake up your brain deep in the unconscious parts, you don't have conscious

00:31:16.560 awareness of that.

00:31:17.860 So, we like things that are easy, that are funny, that are whatever.

00:31:21.340 And by the way, it doesn't matter if they're funny, sad, you know, weird.

00:31:24.540 Some of the most immersive commercials are super weird.

00:31:27.280 They're just odd.

00:31:28.520 And I don't know, they're just, they're like surprising.

00:31:31.600 So, generally, people value neurologically things that are similar to what they know, but a

00:31:37.940 little bit different.

00:31:38.720 So, like in music or in movies, right?

00:31:41.000 We have genres we like, and I want to have more of that genre, but I also want a little

00:31:45.380 bit of new stuff added to it, but not too new, right?

00:31:47.860 If it's completely weird, then it's too far outside my general preferences.

00:31:52.280 Yeah, you talked about one commercial that people didn't say they liked.

00:31:57.220 Like, that was the worst commercial.

00:31:58.520 But if you actually look at the data, it's the one they most responded to.

00:32:01.240 It's this Diet Coke commercial.

00:32:02.580 And it was like some woman just kind of dancing like Elaine Bennis, like sort of off kilter.

00:32:09.080 But that was the one that got the most response.

00:32:11.680 Yeah, it's unlikable.

00:32:12.760 I've showed it many, many times.

00:32:14.640 And people always agree.

00:32:16.580 Yeah, some super tall, skinny woman dancing in this weird, awkward way. 1.00

00:32:21.860 It's shot with very asymmetrically against a yellow wall.

00:32:25.360 And she's talking in a weird way.

00:32:26.820 The whole thing is just weird.

00:32:27.780 But it has a narrative structure, and it's like a car accident.

00:32:32.500 You just can't look away.

00:32:33.500 You got to see it.

00:32:34.620 So it's not likable.

00:32:36.440 But again, I think that's the mistake that we make when we create content, is that people

00:32:41.080 should like it.

00:32:42.180 Now, we do find that highly immersive experiences, when we ask people, are rated as enjoyable.

00:32:48.180 So that's a good thing.

00:32:49.320 But enjoyable doesn't mean it's immersive, right?

00:32:51.680 If I like it, it doesn't mean that it shook up my brain.

00:32:54.640 So that's what I want to do.

00:32:55.480 I want to shake up your brain so you go, holy moly, I got to do this thing.

00:33:00.020 This is happening.

00:33:01.380 Well, and you also talk about this disconnect between liking and it resonating.

00:33:05.440 This can explain box office bombs.

00:33:07.800 Like you talk about Pluto Nash, that Eddie Murphy movie in the 90s.

00:33:11.880 And what happens is these movies get made because they do focus groups.

00:33:16.480 And the focus groups say, yeah, I like that.

00:33:19.140 And then the director and the producer start making changes based on what the focus group

00:33:23.300 says.

00:33:23.600 But the focus group is probably wrong.

00:33:26.540 They might like it, but they're not actually emotionally resonating with it.

00:33:30.960 Yeah, there's this fetishization of data.

00:33:34.900 So all data is not good data, right?

00:33:37.560 So I think I quote in the book, I think Ridley Scott, some other directors who just ignore

00:33:42.040 whatever those focus groups say.

00:33:44.920 You know, the classic example is, remember the movie Marley and Me from early 2000s?

00:33:49.520 And, you know, they focus group that.

00:33:52.800 They ask people about the movie, what they like, what they dislike.

00:33:55.620 And they're like, oh, don't let the dog die.

00:33:57.380 Like the whole point of that movie is a dog at the end has to die.

00:33:59.920 Sorry, spoiler alert for people who haven't seen this 15-year-old movie.

00:34:02.640 So the dog has to die so the humans can take the lessons they learned from the dog and go

00:34:08.100 on and live a good life.

00:34:10.020 But if you're not a storyteller, if you don't understand structure, if you don't understand

00:34:14.120 why, you know, a movie has resonance emotionally, then of course you don't want the dog.

00:34:20.340 Who wants the dog to die?

00:34:21.800 But that's the point of the movie, right?

00:34:23.620 So again, I think asking naive people who are not experts, but even experts don't know, right?

00:34:29.420 Because we have this thing, Brad, I call the Freudian hangover, which is we think from this

00:34:36.080 coke addict Freud that if I just probe you the right way, I can make the unconscious conscious.

00:34:42.380 But actually those are separate data streams.

00:34:44.440 The unconscious part of your brain is probably 99% and it's largely not available to our consciousness.

00:34:50.840 So if I want to have you tell me about your unconscious emotional response to an experience,

00:34:57.160 you're just going to fake it, right?

00:34:58.660 Because you just don't know.

00:35:00.100 It's like asking your liver how much it enjoyed your lunch today. 1.00

00:35:02.740 You were like, that's a stupid question. 1.00

00:35:04.740 That's the same thing about asking, you know, let's ask your brainstem how much it has enjoyed 1.00

00:35:08.560 this conversation with Paul Zak.

00:35:10.080 Well, your brainstem can't talk.

00:35:12.300 Yeah, and I think this disconnect can explain like why some movies become cult classics, right?

00:35:17.980 They might have come out and they bombed initially for whatever reason.

00:35:21.300 But because they immerse people into something, it has a long life, like I'm thinking like Christmas,

00:35:27.600 yeah, Christmas story, right?

00:35:29.060 We're talking about Christmas, a Christmas story.

00:35:30.220 I think when it first came out, it bombed.

00:35:32.480 But now it's become this cult classic that everyone watches every Christmas and they have

00:35:37.080 memories about this movie, watching it as a child.

00:35:40.660 Right.

00:35:40.880 So you get that double whammy, you get the nostalgia, that memory effect.

00:35:44.340 And it's such a cute, sweet movie.

00:35:46.800 And it's also time limited, right?

00:35:48.540 So again, one of the factors that we found almost always is that shorter is better.

00:35:54.040 I'm not going to watch a Christmas story, you know, 40 times before Christmas.

00:35:57.740 I'll watch it maybe once or maybe twice.

00:35:59.600 I really have to.

00:36:01.160 So that time limited, you know, this is the operators are standing by now, right?

00:36:05.100 We want to make that tension.

00:36:07.520 We're going to turn that tension into a decision and that decision has got to happen faster.

00:36:12.700 But yeah, with streaming, there's so many movies that are out there that, yeah, didn't

00:36:16.420 find an audience for whatever reason, they weren't marketed well or people just didn't

00:36:19.840 get it.

00:36:20.820 And then they're absolute classics and it's so great to have them.

00:36:24.980 But again, for listeners, you know, if you rewatch a movie, it gives you a great opportunity

00:36:29.320 to see the hooks they put in there to modulate your immersion.

00:36:34.100 And for long form storytelling, again, I don't want you to be at maximum immersion because

00:36:38.460 I just exhaust you and then you just want to quit.

00:36:41.000 I want to kind of have this sine wave pattern up and down, different storylines with different

00:36:45.740 levels of tension.

00:36:47.120 And then generally those two or three storylines merging in the end into a big climax.

00:36:53.820 So again, you can learn from your favorite movies or favorite TV shows, you know, how

00:36:57.860 they do that.

00:36:58.680 You mentioned Elaine Bennett.

00:36:59.620 So Seinfeld, I think, was extraordinarily well written where there are almost always three

00:37:04.120 different storylines that at the end of that 22 minute episode converged into kind

00:37:09.840 of a big takeaway.

00:37:10.760 And so, yeah, just for people interested, you know, watch a couple old Seinfelds and see

00:37:16.000 how they wrap these three stories together that modulate tension from high to low and

00:37:20.560 then bring it all together at the end.

00:37:22.440 Well, let's talk about some applications of this immersion idea.

00:37:24.680 So teaching.

00:37:25.560 There's people who might be teaching in schools, but if you have a job, you might be doing

00:37:30.480 trainings.

00:37:31.320 How can we use this immersion idea to help students recall information better?

00:37:35.660 All right.

00:37:35.860 So think of the Accenture 20-20-20 rule.

00:37:38.380 So don't speak for more than 20 minutes.

00:37:40.980 And after 20 minutes, you'll switch tasks.

00:37:43.360 So 20 minutes of maybe explaining what you're going to do and then 20 minutes of something

00:37:48.780 that's active, participatory, people working at their desks or tables.

00:37:53.220 And then think about 20 minutes of a debrief.

00:37:55.940 So it's really the flipped classroom on steroids.

00:37:59.180 So shorter, more intensive.

00:38:00.960 Accenture has found that breaks should be longer because I'm, again, exhausting those

00:38:05.120 neurons in the brain.

00:38:06.520 So put a break in there so people can kind of refresh.

00:38:10.020 You can use things like movement together to get a class or a training session.

00:38:16.440 So stand up and we're going to all clap together.

00:38:18.360 We're all going to move or do jumping jacks.

00:38:20.440 And people naturally coordinate.

00:38:22.160 So when you coordinate, you actually increase immersion because we're all moving the same

00:38:27.700 direction.

00:38:28.260 So brains will actually, physical movement will coordinate neurologic activity, which is super

00:38:33.080 weird.

00:38:33.900 So that's one way to do it.

00:38:35.700 And the next is really be responsive.

00:38:38.200 So if you're not measuring immersion directly, look for those signs like shuffling feet, movement

00:38:44.320 in the seats that tell you that you're kind of losing people.

00:38:47.720 So when I give public lectures, I always listen for those kind of movements or look for those

00:38:51.920 movements or listen for those sounds.

00:38:53.660 Or like, okay, I'm losing the audience.

00:38:55.580 I've got to mix it up here.

00:38:57.400 So what I do when I'm speaking for, say, an hour is I put in what I call pivots.

00:39:00.960 If the audience is getting restless, I have a backup plan.

00:39:05.260 And I have actually every 20 minutes in a talk, I have a pivot that I may or may not

00:39:09.120 use.

00:39:09.680 If the talk's going great, run with it.

00:39:11.860 It's fine.

00:39:12.280 If the people are getting restless, then pivot into that.

00:39:15.600 I'll change the area of the stage I'm using.

00:39:17.500 I'll go into the audience.

00:39:18.860 I'll have props or I'll have things prepared so that I'm ready to continue to engage others.

00:39:25.720 The shortest answer actually is use multimedia.

00:39:29.280 So if I'm giving an hour talk, I'll probably show three to four videos to break it up.

00:39:35.040 So I'll show a short three or four minute video.

00:39:37.020 So now something's new is happening.

00:39:38.940 And then I'll go back and talk about that video.

00:39:41.800 Maybe I'll pull the audience.

00:39:43.560 If we have technology, talk, talk, talk, and then ask them to think about something or ask

00:39:48.960 them to do something.

00:39:50.700 So shorter is better.

00:39:52.380 And storytelling always wins the day.

00:39:54.540 What about, how can you use this immersion idea to be more persuasive, right?

00:39:58.040 Let's say there's a guy in sales making a sales pitch.

00:40:00.320 How can you use these ideas?

00:40:01.860 Yeah.

00:40:02.040 So first, establish psychological safety.

00:40:04.660 Second, really think about the outcome you want to get, right?

00:40:07.980 If it's sales, how much?

00:40:10.440 What exactly is this person buying?

00:40:12.240 Not like, would you like to buy one of our products?

00:40:14.660 But hey, you know what?

00:40:15.780 I looked at your company and I think our Nespresso coffee maker is going to be perfect for your

00:40:20.860 office.

00:40:21.680 So let me tell you why.

00:40:23.020 And then you can go through the history of how it was made and the technology and you

00:40:26.700 have this.

00:40:27.620 And then, you know, we made version one of the Nespresso.

00:40:30.080 I'm making this all up now.

00:40:31.380 And completely failed.

00:40:33.200 The thing broke.

00:40:33.940 People hated it.

00:40:35.120 And, you know, I wasn't even working for them.

00:40:37.120 And I saw this product come out. 1.00

00:40:38.420 I'm like, this is a piece of crap. 1.00

00:40:39.780 And then they brought in this Italian engineer. 1.00

00:40:43.160 Amazing.

00:40:43.700 His name was Guido.

00:40:44.720 He actually created the most beautiful machine you've ever seen.

00:40:48.160 And this thing will make 5,000 cups of coffee in a row before you need to service it.

00:40:53.520 Better than any other coffee maker.

00:40:54.960 So I'm making this all up now.

00:40:56.120 It's fake.

00:40:57.380 Nespresso's not paying me.

00:40:58.400 I'm just looking at my coffee maker in my office.

00:41:01.060 So, you know, it's really crafting that story and then getting to a point where, hey, 5,000

00:41:07.040 cups of coffee.

00:41:08.260 This is going to be the best thing for you.

00:41:09.960 How many would you like?

00:41:10.940 Take that a high immersion moment and then close the sale.

00:41:13.660 So you've really got to close the sale.

00:41:15.500 What we often do with storytelling is we resolve the tension and then we wait from a sales perspective.

00:41:21.640 What you want to do is when you've got high tension, that's when you want to make the

00:41:24.360 ask, right?

00:41:25.160 So you don't want to wait till that tension's dissipated.

00:41:28.740 It's rare.

00:41:29.460 It doesn't last that long.

00:41:30.580 Peak immersion moments last for maybe 20 to 30 seconds at most.

00:41:33.980 So you've got that small window where you've really captured that person emotionally.

00:41:37.940 That's when you want to ask them to do something.

00:41:40.340 What about, we've been kind of talking about this throughout our conversation, but just making,

00:41:43.640 using these ideas to make, to create more extraordinary experiences in our daily lives.

00:41:47.700 So this could be at work.

00:41:49.700 It could be just a social interaction we have with somebody.

00:41:53.180 It could be a date.

00:41:54.140 What are some examples you've seen in your own life and in your research?

00:41:58.020 Yeah, it's really a cranking it up.

00:41:59.680 So one of the kind of motifs of the book or key takeaways is that once we train ourselves

00:42:05.740 to be deeply immersed in experiences, we open up a wealth of opportunities to have stronger

00:42:12.720 social connections, more influence on others, happier and longer lives.

00:42:17.400 And there's actually data in the book on that.

00:42:19.280 So I really want to be connected to the humans around me.

00:42:22.020 And I said, I'm a Martian earlier.

00:42:23.460 I'm working very hard to be a human by really investing in relationships.

00:42:28.060 So we can do this by number one, the first step, being present, right?

00:42:32.480 So put away your phone, make eye contact.

00:42:35.400 I call this listening with your eyes.

00:42:37.040 I'm going to give you the gift of my full attention.

00:42:40.080 And then I want to be open and listening and absorbing what you're telling me, right?

00:42:46.200 I want that oxytocin effect to be really immersed.

00:42:48.960 And I want to share the emotions that you are expressing as you're talking to me, telling

00:42:54.220 your story, doing something with me.

00:42:55.960 So it's really training ourselves to be in the here and now and to be open to experiences.

00:43:02.520 And once we do that, gosh, at Starbucks or on the airplane, as I said, with a nice flight

00:43:08.180 attendant, amazing 15-hour flight person who was smiling the entire time.

00:43:12.340 I don't know how he did it.

00:43:13.980 Then I'm happier when I get off the plane and I see my family and I'm happier, right?

00:43:18.060 There's this, again, this sort of contagion effect in which it flows.

00:43:21.960 So it's really understanding that to flourish as human beings, we've got to connect to others

00:43:28.440 at a fundamentally deep level, at an immersion level.

00:43:31.680 And when we do that, we get better and better at it.

00:43:34.960 And even Martians like me can actually simulate being a human and actually having those full

00:43:41.200 emotional connections to the people who care about us.

00:43:44.840 Well, Paul, this has been a great conversation.

00:43:46.260 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:43:48.320 You can go to getimmersion.com, immersion with an I, or pauljzack.com.

00:43:54.700 The book is Immersion, The Science of the Extraordinary and The Source of Happiness.

00:43:59.580 The two things I really want in my life.

00:44:01.200 I want extraordinary experiences and I want to be happy.

00:44:03.680 So if you want those things, you'll get some lessons in the book.

00:44:06.840 Brett, thank you so much.

00:44:07.880 Well, thank you, Paul.

00:44:09.120 My guest today was Dr. Paul Zak.

00:44:10.540 He's the author of the book Immersion.

00:44:12.200 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:44:14.720 You can find more information about his work at his website, pauljzack.

00:44:17.800 That's Z-A-K.com. 0.94

00:44:19.920 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash immersion, where you can find links to resources,

00:44:24.240 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:44:32.840 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:44:35.900 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives,

00:44:39.640 as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything

00:44:42.680 you think of.

00:44:43.660 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us your

00:44:46.420 email to the podcast or Spotify.

00:44:47.940 It helps out a lot.

00:44:48.700 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:44:50.460 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think will get something

00:44:53.420 out of it.

00:44:54.200 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:44:56.140 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:44:57.620 Remind your time to listen to AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:45:01.360 Peace.

00:45:01.860 Hmm.

00:45:02.200 Peace.

00:45:02.600 Hmm.

00:45:02.840 din very often, but look at the chat box.

00:45:03.460 Thank you for the freedom you've heard from your heart.

00:45:04.500 Thank you for the video.

00:45:05.060 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - December 04, 2023

Increase Your Influence With the Science of Immersion

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