The Art of Manliness - Influence and Persuade Through Human Hacking

00:00:00.000 The Art of Manliness Podcast

00:00:30.000 He's the author of Human Hacking, Win Friends, Influence People, and Leave Them Better Off for Having Met You.

00:00:45.260 In this book, he takes the social engineering principles con men and malicious social hackers use to breach security systems and steal data

00:00:51.060 and shows the average person how to use them for positive ends in their personal and professional relationships.

00:00:55.920 Today on the show, Chris shares how assessing which of the four styles of communication someone prefers can help you better connect with them,

00:01:01.600 why you should approach every interaction knowing your pretext, the keys for building rapport, and the difference between manipulation and influence.

00:01:08.140 And we end our conversation with tips on the art of elicitation, which is how to get information from someone without directly asking for it.

00:01:14.580 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash human hacking.

00:01:25.920 All right, Chris Hadnagy, welcome to the show.

00:01:32.080 Thank you for having me.

00:01:33.180 So you are a hacker.

00:01:35.000 Now, I think when, I think if you grew up in the 90s, like I did, you have this sort of archetypical idea of what a hacker looks like, what they do.

00:01:41.880 So usually they're in a dark room, furiously tapping at a keyboard in front of a monitor with a black screen,

00:01:47.680 with a green fonted code cascading down, maybe listening to the prodigy, but that's not what you do.

00:01:55.720 You do, there's some computer hacking involved, but you primarily hack humans.

00:01:59.780 What is a human hacker?

00:02:01.500 That's great, by the way.

00:02:02.540 I love that image.

00:02:03.320 And don't forget the Mountain Dew.

00:02:04.520 The Mountain Dew, right.

00:02:05.280 The Mountain Dew has to be there.

00:02:05.920 So a human hacker is basically just like hacking a computer, where you understand how a computer or a piece of software works.

00:02:13.100 So you inject code in order to get that program to do something it shouldn't.

00:02:18.540 A human hacker does the same thing.

00:02:20.160 We understand how humans make decisions.

00:02:22.620 So we influence those decisions in a way that gets them to do things that we want them to do.

00:02:29.720 All right, so a nefarious version of this would be like a con man.

00:02:32.880 Con man, scam artist, they call social engineers from a malicious side.

00:02:37.800 And then you can have all those same skills on the good side.

00:02:41.300 And your job as a human hacker is companies hire you to hack in to their companies.

00:02:47.620 And that's not just computers, but it's like getting into secure areas where people shouldn't be.

00:02:52.080 Your job is to do that so these companies can figure out, okay, we need to change this in our security protocol.

00:02:58.100 Yeah, so we call it adversarial simulation, which means that a company hires us to say,

00:03:02.440 hey, we know you're not the bad guy.

00:03:04.500 We want you to make believe you're the bad guy and tell us if you can get in.

00:03:08.700 So we'll do everything from phishing, like email-based attacks, or phishing, phone-based attacks.

00:03:13.780 Or we'll physically go on site and break into a building, both in broad daylight and in the middle of the night.

00:03:20.000 And then we tell them, hey, here's how we did it.

00:03:22.140 And here's what worked.

00:03:23.140 Here's what didn't work.

00:03:24.080 And here's why you need to improve these particular areas.

00:03:27.580 And how did you get started with this?

00:03:28.460 Because we've had Frank Agnigal on the podcast before.

00:03:31.700 And this is a guy, he was a con man.

00:03:33.620 And then now he tells companies what people like him used to do.

00:03:39.040 Did you start off as a black hat hacker and then became a good guy, white hat guy?

00:03:43.680 I love that question.

00:03:44.920 So that is the common story.

00:03:46.520 But I got fortunate.

00:03:47.980 So I was in college for computer programming.

00:03:50.380 And I was, of course, interested in telephony at the time, what they call phone phreaking.

00:03:55.760 And I wrote a program that today we would call a war dialer.

00:03:58.880 And I shut down my whole county's phone system for a day.

00:04:02.140 And that, of course, ignited a flame in me.

00:04:04.540 I was like, I need to know more about this.

00:04:06.720 And started reading and researching.

00:04:08.640 And then it kind of went away.

00:04:10.220 And it was years later, maybe a decade later, that I started working in the field with a company

00:04:16.020 that did network pen testing, so network adversarial simulation.

00:04:20.100 And I was really bad at coding.

00:04:22.120 I mean, I did it.

00:04:22.880 I have a couple exploits under my name, but I wasn't great at it.

00:04:26.780 So I found it easier to deal with the humans.

00:04:28.980 So I started doing that.

00:04:30.340 And when I started doing that, it wasn't an industry.

00:04:32.460 There was nothing around it.

00:04:34.300 So I actually wrote the world's first framework for social engineering.

00:04:37.100 And that formed my company.

00:04:38.800 So it's kind of a quick version of a long story.

00:04:42.160 But that's how I ended up doing this for a living,

00:04:44.520 is I actually helped create the industry that does it now.

00:04:47.760 And I imagine your services are high in demand now, because this stuff is just...

00:04:50.980 I mean, there's not a day that goes by that I don't get some sort of phishing text

00:04:53.980 from somebody about something.

00:04:56.140 It's unbelievable.

00:04:57.180 If you and I were having this conversation seven or eight years ago,

00:05:00.520 I might have said, yeah, this is going to be a big thing.

00:05:03.240 I would not have seen the way the world would have gone now.

00:05:06.560 I mean, everything involves social engineering.

00:05:09.640 When you have a 17-year-old that could hack Twitter with one phone call,

00:05:13.200 the whole world is vulnerable.

00:05:15.480 And we see phishing, phishing.

00:05:17.500 They're trying to hack the nation states,

00:05:19.360 trying to hack the freezers that are holding the COVID vaccine right now

00:05:22.220 through phishing emails.

00:05:23.760 It is just nonstop barrage of attacks globally.

00:05:27.200 I forgot about that Twitter hack.

00:05:28.420 That was a big one.

00:05:29.300 The person got...

00:05:30.060 That was a huge one.

00:05:31.200 But what happened?

00:05:32.000 They got access to the backend, basically.

00:05:35.240 Twitter has a special database that houses some of the really high-end people,

00:05:39.540 like Elon Musk and President Obama and people like that.

00:05:42.540 And this kid wanted access to it.

00:05:44.680 So he called up, got a hold of someone in Twitter support,

00:05:47.480 said he worked in this other department and needed access,

00:05:50.620 had enough information that he sounded legitimate,

00:05:53.720 spoofed his phone number,

00:05:55.120 and the guy on the phone gave him the username and password and gave him access.

00:05:59.360 So he logged in and in eight hours stole $300,000 in Bitcoin.

00:06:04.840 That's great.

00:06:05.280 And so I think this drives home the point that a lot of hacking

00:06:07.480 is not just you're putting in, you know, injecting computer code.

00:06:11.320 It is you are manipulating people.

00:06:13.720 Like it's, you have, there's a social aspect of it.

00:06:15.660 That's, and that's often the most vulnerable part,

00:06:18.120 because as we all know, humans are extremely fallible.

00:06:21.860 And what is it?

00:06:22.760 P.T. Barnum supposedly said,

00:06:24.420 a sucker's born.

00:06:25.100 Like we're gullible.

00:06:26.200 Like we want to believe or trust that people are good people

00:06:29.080 and we'll just go along and give them information

00:06:31.140 that we probably shouldn't have done.

00:06:32.440 And, you know, I look at the science behind that.

00:06:35.380 Like I laugh at P.T. Barnum's statement,

00:06:37.660 but I like to twist that a little differently

00:06:39.280 is this is the way we survive as a species, right?

00:06:42.680 Imagine if everybody we met,

00:06:45.060 we were automatically built in to be distrusting

00:06:48.000 and we thought you were a terrible person, right?

00:06:50.740 We wouldn't be able to survive.

00:06:52.160 We would be no better than animals

00:06:53.600 that we just breed when it's a time of the year.

00:06:56.000 And then, you know, we procreate that way and that's it.

00:06:58.800 But our ability to interact in social environments

00:07:03.140 is what makes us different and what makes us human.

00:07:06.060 And that ability, we don't want people to lose that.

00:07:10.340 But scam artists, con men, that's what they play on.

00:07:13.680 So the idea is to get people aware that these things happen

00:07:16.960 so they can be better protected.

00:07:18.780 Think of it as learning a martial art or learning how to box.

00:07:22.200 And if you don't know how to fight at all

00:07:23.500 and someone throws a punch,

00:07:24.540 you may take it square in the face.

00:07:25.920 But if you had any martial arts training

00:07:28.040 or boxing training at all,

00:07:29.660 someone throws a punch at you,

00:07:31.060 muscle reflex goes into action and you block it.

00:07:33.760 So that's the goal here,

00:07:35.520 is to help people learn that these things can happen.

00:07:38.320 So A, they can use them in their life for betterment,

00:07:40.380 but also they can stay protected from the bad guys.

00:07:43.240 All right, so con men use,

00:07:45.580 basically what con men are, they're very adept.

00:07:47.440 They understand how humans work

00:07:49.220 and the emotions and the social processes

00:07:52.420 that go on in human relationships.

00:07:53.820 They use that for nefarious.

00:07:56.740 You use those things to show companies

00:07:59.060 and governments possibly like where weaknesses are

00:08:02.200 and how you can protect yourself from con men.

00:08:05.320 But in your latest book, Hacking Humans,

00:08:08.020 you make this case that the same things

00:08:09.400 that con men use to steal Bitcoin

00:08:12.620 or secrets from companies,

00:08:14.960 these same ideas or practices or tactics

00:08:17.900 can be used to enrich our everyday relationships,

00:08:21.660 relationships between husbands and wife, parents and kids.

00:08:24.540 How so?

00:08:24.980 What is that?

00:08:25.460 How can the same thing be used for completely opposite ends?

00:08:29.720 Yeah, I love that.

00:08:30.500 So let's think about, first of all,

00:08:31.920 to answer that from a con man,

00:08:33.280 how he gets people to fall for things, right?

00:08:36.420 So a con man comes up and he uses the,

00:08:39.540 and maybe not even understanding the science,

00:08:41.300 but he uses the science behind a molecule

00:08:43.280 in our body called oxytocin.

00:08:45.400 And he tells you a secret.

00:08:47.500 He tells you, I'll use Victor Lustwig.

00:08:49.340 He was a famous con man that sold the Eiffel Tower

00:08:52.000 a couple of times.

00:08:52.840 He actually conned Al Capone successfully

00:08:55.380 and didn't get killed.

00:08:56.920 And what he did is he always had secrets.

00:08:58.680 I'm going to tell you this thing that nobody knows.

00:09:01.120 The Eiffel Tower is about to be taken down

00:09:03.200 and that scrap metal is going to go for millions of dollars.

00:09:06.200 If you want in, I have a road in.

00:09:08.940 And when you feel trusted by someone,

00:09:11.140 your brain releases this chemical oxytocin

00:09:13.420 and it makes a connection between two people

00:09:16.080 that is really hard to break.

00:09:17.480 So let's take just that one principle.

00:09:20.760 When I'm interacting with someone else,

00:09:22.920 my wife, my kids, an employee,

00:09:25.920 someone at a grocery store,

00:09:27.820 I can go into that interaction

00:09:29.540 only thinking about what I want.

00:09:31.700 I want this out of this conversation.

00:09:33.980 So all I'm going to do is talk about this

00:09:36.240 and I'm going to point the direction this way.

00:09:38.860 But if I go into the conversation thinking,

00:09:41.020 you know what?

00:09:41.820 I'm going to leave you feeling better for having met me.

00:09:44.140 And I'm going to think about what you want

00:09:46.140 out of this conversation.

00:09:47.860 And I enter it that way.

00:09:49.660 I build a bond with you and a trust with you

00:09:51.900 that will make you more compliant to the things I want.

00:09:55.400 And that's not manipulative.

00:09:56.620 It's just learning how to communicate in a way

00:09:58.520 that brings peace and harmony

00:09:59.740 as opposed to argument and dissension.

00:10:01.680 Right.

00:10:01.980 Con men are often,

00:10:03.220 they know how to be friendly.

00:10:04.740 They know.

00:10:05.320 Yes.

00:10:05.920 When it comes down to,

00:10:06.840 and you say like one of the foundational principles

00:10:08.700 of hacking humans,

00:10:10.300 of human hacking is empathy.

00:10:12.660 So, I mean, are con men,

00:10:13.880 like, are they empathetic?

00:10:15.560 Oh, they are.

00:10:16.300 I mean, so think about what empathy really means

00:10:18.460 because sometimes we get this wrong.

00:10:19.800 And I think especially in Western cultures

00:10:21.600 and, you know, me as a male,

00:10:23.520 we especially in our gender get this wrong

00:10:25.240 where I may say I'm empathetic,

00:10:27.560 but, you know, Brett,

00:10:28.260 I let you have your feelings.

00:10:30.080 That's not empathy, right?

00:10:31.820 That's almost condescending.

00:10:33.680 It's not,

00:10:34.220 and empathy is also not saying,

00:10:36.040 I understand what you're going through

00:10:37.800 because I can't.

00:10:39.100 Let's say you and I went through

00:10:40.060 the same exact situation.

00:10:41.980 You know, we had a family member sick with COVID.

00:10:44.520 I still can't understand fully

00:10:46.460 your emotional content

00:10:47.860 because maybe your relationship

00:10:49.280 with that family member is different.

00:10:51.080 It's closer or not as close.

00:10:53.080 So, empathy is not that.

00:10:55.180 Empathy is allowing me to put myself

00:10:57.820 in your emotional shoes

00:10:59.380 to understand why you may be acting

00:11:02.180 or talking or reacting in a certain way

00:11:05.200 and not judging you for it.

00:11:07.780 So, by literally saying,

00:11:08.780 look, I could see that you're stressed.

00:11:10.380 I could see this is happening.

00:11:11.980 Tell me about that.

00:11:12.720 Why are you so upset about this family member?

00:11:15.200 Were you really close?

00:11:16.680 And allowing you to now tell me about it

00:11:19.220 and really being curious.

00:11:20.920 Now I'm active listening.

00:11:22.400 I'm trying to understand

00:11:23.600 what it is that you're going through.

00:11:25.460 And I'm not offering you solutions

00:11:26.840 and I'm not jumping in and interrupting you.

00:11:29.280 I'm literally active listening

00:11:31.040 while showing real curiosity about your life.

00:11:34.040 And if we learn that skill,

00:11:35.700 can you imagine the problems

00:11:37.100 that we can solve in this world

00:11:38.360 if we all can do that?

00:11:40.280 So, a big part of gaining more empathy

00:11:42.600 so that you can,

00:11:44.060 to work with people

00:11:44.900 and persuade them

00:11:46.140 and influence them effectively

00:11:47.720 and get along with them

00:11:49.440 is you got to understand their personality

00:11:52.080 and where they're coming from.

00:11:53.340 And you talk about in the book,

00:11:55.340 dedicate this chapter,

00:11:56.220 that you can get like a rough idea

00:11:58.380 of someone's communication personality style

00:12:02.180 by running through what's called

00:12:04.340 a DISC assessment.

00:12:06.060 What is a DISC assessment

00:12:07.280 and what are the categories

00:12:09.680 you're trying to figure out

00:12:10.940 as you're running through this assessment

00:12:12.720 on a person?

00:12:14.080 So, way back in the 30s,

00:12:16.000 a very famous psychologist

00:12:17.380 by the name of William Marston,

00:12:19.240 he's actually the creator of the polygraph.

00:12:21.320 He is the creator of Wonder Woman

00:12:22.860 as a comic book hero,

00:12:24.020 believe it or not.

00:12:25.020 He started to analyze

00:12:26.640 and catalog communication points

00:12:29.340 that indicate a certain type of communicator

00:12:31.800 and he broke them into four categories.

00:12:33.980 So, you have very dominant

00:12:35.120 or D-type communicators,

00:12:37.220 I that are influencers,

00:12:39.140 S that are very steady

00:12:40.420 and people-orientated,

00:12:41.820 and then C that are very conscientious,

00:12:43.660 organized communicators.

00:12:45.580 And when you look at someone

00:12:47.140 and you can look at them

00:12:48.020 just from across the room

00:12:49.560 as they communicate

00:12:50.240 with friends, family, employees,

00:12:52.140 or the pictures they have,

00:12:53.700 their social media,

00:12:54.660 any of those things can indicate

00:12:56.240 what kind of a communicator that is.

00:12:59.040 And if I understand

00:12:59.760 the type of communicator you are

00:13:01.260 and I'm trying to influence you,

00:13:03.120 whether it's for good or bad,

00:13:04.740 I can come up

00:13:05.680 and communicate with you

00:13:06.800 in the way that you desire.

00:13:09.100 And if I do that,

00:13:10.260 your brain will automatically

00:13:11.540 reward you with dopamine

00:13:12.860 and that will be related to me.

00:13:15.220 So, you'll feel good

00:13:16.100 because you're getting something

00:13:17.540 that you like and enjoy

00:13:18.760 and I'm the reason you're getting it

00:13:21.000 so you're going to be more compliant

00:13:22.500 with the things that I ask for.

00:13:24.900 Is the color code based on this?

00:13:27.740 I've done that.

00:13:28.560 The color code book?

00:13:28.940 Yeah, so it's similar.

00:13:29.860 It's very similar to that, right?

00:13:31.260 So, and because the reason I like this,

00:13:32.900 like let's say over Myers-Briggs

00:13:34.180 is you really can't teach someone

00:13:36.320 to do a Myers-Briggs profile

00:13:37.980 on the fly, right?

00:13:39.300 I can't look across the room

00:13:40.360 and go, you're an INTJ.

00:13:41.820 You know, that's like impossible.

00:13:43.380 But with DISC,

00:13:44.320 you can just take a few seconds,

00:13:46.060 even a photo

00:13:46.720 or a screenshot

00:13:48.060 of their social media

00:13:49.220 and we can clearly indicate

00:13:51.560 what kind of a communicator

00:13:52.760 that person is.

00:13:54.300 And even if you can just get it

00:13:55.520 into 50% of the quadrant,

00:13:56.960 you have a better chance

00:13:58.120 of communicating with them

00:13:59.800 in a way that will

00:14:00.700 make their brains reward them.

00:14:03.320 And that goes well.

00:14:04.620 And think of this

00:14:05.220 from a not an attacker standpoint.

00:14:07.340 Imagine you're, you know,

00:14:08.340 you have to go talk

00:14:09.020 to your spouse

00:14:09.600 about something difficult.

00:14:11.080 You have to talk

00:14:11.680 to your brother or sister

00:14:12.640 about a family problem.

00:14:14.380 If you do that in a way

00:14:15.660 that's in their communication style,

00:14:18.000 they're going to be more prone

00:14:19.160 to listen to you

00:14:20.040 and to want to take the action

00:14:21.580 you want them to take

00:14:22.500 because you rewarded them

00:14:24.060 with this gift.

00:14:25.380 Right.

00:14:25.520 So if they're a dominant style,

00:14:27.240 but you try to, you know,

00:14:28.720 approach them

00:14:29.340 like an influencer style

00:14:30.480 where you're trying to like,

00:14:31.140 hey, what's going on?

00:14:32.180 You know,

00:14:32.680 and they're gonna be like,

00:14:33.220 you're beating around the bush.

00:14:34.220 Like, what do you want?

00:14:34.880 Get to the point.

00:14:35.600 Right.

00:14:36.040 So that'd be an example

00:14:37.060 of two conflicting

00:14:38.160 communication styles

00:14:39.000 and you'd want to be

00:14:39.600 just to the point,

00:14:40.400 hey, I need,

00:14:41.700 the example you use

00:14:42.760 throughout your book

00:14:43.280 is I need $10,000

00:14:44.500 for help with mom's healthcare

00:14:47.080 or something like that.

00:14:48.180 Just say that.

00:14:48.800 If they're dominant,

00:14:49.420 you just say,

00:14:49.780 hey, I need $10,000 from you.

00:14:52.080 Yeah.

00:14:52.520 And if I'm an I,

00:14:54.820 like you said,

00:14:55.340 and I'm all jovial

00:14:56.240 and jokey

00:14:56.840 and I don't get to the point

00:14:57.680 really quick

00:14:58.320 and my sister

00:14:59.640 is that D communicator

00:15:01.140 and I'm there at the table

00:15:03.120 like, look,

00:15:03.520 I really need to talk to you

00:15:04.180 about something important,

00:15:05.000 but hey, first,

00:15:05.600 how's life going?

00:15:06.520 That's a great color,

00:15:07.860 this and that.

00:15:08.300 She's now getting irritated

00:15:09.400 because she's waiting

00:15:10.320 for me to get to the point.

00:15:11.880 So by the time

00:15:12.640 I get to the point,

00:15:13.660 her emotional content

00:15:14.740 is now irritation,

00:15:16.340 less likely to comply.

00:15:18.300 Whereas if I were to start

00:15:19.700 the conversation off

00:15:20.680 with, look,

00:15:21.560 the reason I asked you here today

00:15:22.780 is I have something

00:15:23.420 really serious

00:15:24.000 to talk to you about mom

00:15:24.800 and it's going to cost us

00:15:27.040 as a family a lot of money

00:15:28.140 and I need to know

00:15:28.680 how we can work together

00:15:29.740 to make this happen.

00:15:30.940 So I looked into this home

00:15:32.320 and they want $10,000.

00:15:34.480 You know,

00:15:34.800 what can we do

00:15:35.460 to make this work together?

00:15:36.820 Now I've presented the problem,

00:15:38.140 given her options,

00:15:39.020 asked her for help

00:15:39.740 and I did it

00:15:40.240 without all the fluff.

00:15:41.840 She's more readily

00:15:42.900 going to be able

00:15:43.460 to speak to me

00:15:44.280 with empathy,

00:15:45.540 compassion,

00:15:46.200 compliance

00:15:46.840 over if I used

00:15:48.640 my communication profile

00:15:49.960 to chat with her.

00:15:52.420 So talk about dominant,

00:15:53.740 we talk about influencer,

00:15:55.180 steady,

00:15:55.620 is that more just like

00:15:56.400 you care about the relationship?

00:15:58.720 Like what is it?

00:15:59.420 What's up?

00:15:59.740 They are.

00:16:00.380 They love to really be more

00:16:01.700 about the people

00:16:02.500 of their group

00:16:03.220 and their team

00:16:03.860 or their family winning.

00:16:05.020 And then a conscientious person,

00:16:06.440 they're just detailed oriented.

00:16:08.520 Very detailed.

00:16:09.420 They love lists,

00:16:10.300 they love color codes,

00:16:11.960 they love sticky notes,

00:16:13.800 they love bullet points.

00:16:15.400 So for them,

00:16:16.200 a decision is made

00:16:17.220 by facts,

00:16:17.960 figures,

00:16:18.560 statistics,

00:16:19.220 details.

00:16:20.420 And if you don't present those,

00:16:21.880 they're going to doubt

00:16:22.500 that you actually know

00:16:23.260 what you're talking about.

00:16:24.400 Great.

00:16:24.600 So again,

00:16:25.180 there's detailed assessments

00:16:26.740 you can do,

00:16:27.320 like quizzes you can do

00:16:28.660 on people.

00:16:29.340 In fact,

00:16:29.580 you do this with your employees,

00:16:30.860 you have them take

00:16:31.380 this DISC assessment.

00:16:32.640 But you can do this

00:16:33.740 on the fly.

00:16:34.180 If you just kind of look

00:16:34.900 and you get a thumbnail sketch

00:16:36.800 of their communication style

00:16:38.140 and on that thumbnail sketch

00:16:39.640 you can make adjustments

00:16:41.340 so that your communication

00:16:43.080 lands better.

00:16:44.620 Yeah,

00:16:44.800 so if you,

00:16:45.520 like in your mind,

00:16:46.360 drew a circle

00:16:46.960 and you put a cross

00:16:48.560 in the middle of the circle

00:16:49.380 so you had four quadrants.

00:16:50.980 So D is in the upper left,

00:16:53.000 I is in the upper right,

00:16:54.860 S is in the lower right,

00:16:56.380 C is in the lower left.

00:16:58.180 Now on the very top of that

00:16:59.380 you wrote task,

00:17:00.480 I'm sorry,

00:17:00.840 you wrote direct

00:17:01.540 and on the bottom of the circle

00:17:03.240 you wrote indirect.

00:17:04.700 On the left you wrote task

00:17:06.840 and on the right you wrote people.

00:17:08.840 Now forget about the letters,

00:17:10.020 you can look at someone,

00:17:11.320 even their social media

00:17:12.320 and you can say,

00:17:13.120 are they more task

00:17:14.740 or people oriented, right?

00:17:16.180 So let's take that I communicator.

00:17:17.980 When you're looking

00:17:18.680 at their Twitter,

00:17:19.400 they're going to be talking

00:17:20.120 about pretty things,

00:17:21.260 happy things,

00:17:21.860 they're going to be very jovial,

00:17:22.980 a lot of I, I, I

00:17:24.160 kind of comments,

00:17:25.560 which means you probably

00:17:27.060 have either an I or an S

00:17:28.540 and then you see,

00:17:29.400 oh, but they're pretty direct.

00:17:31.100 They're not beating around the bush

00:17:32.240 or not about the team.

00:17:33.360 That makes them an I.

00:17:34.920 So you can do that

00:17:35.700 in a few seconds

00:17:36.520 and now I know

00:17:37.320 what kind of a communicator you are

00:17:38.840 and I can easily

00:17:40.220 then adjust my style

00:17:41.580 to match yours

00:17:42.460 or to communicate better.

00:17:44.000 All right.

00:17:44.700 So that's the sort of the first step

00:17:46.060 in hacking humans.

00:17:47.860 The second one

00:17:48.740 is this idea,

00:17:49.900 it's, it happens

00:17:50.680 in social engineering.

00:17:51.520 It's a concept called pretexting.

00:17:53.040 What is pretexting?

00:17:54.640 It's really making up

00:17:56.060 the act

00:17:56.760 of what it is

00:17:57.900 that you're going to be

00:17:58.980 for this engagement,

00:18:00.000 right?

00:18:00.720 So from a hacking standpoint,

00:18:02.300 it's,

00:18:02.980 I'm pest control,

00:18:03.980 I'm a repairman,

00:18:05.020 I'm a fellow employee.

00:18:07.100 Even though I'm none

00:18:07.900 of those things,

00:18:08.800 it's, it's the pretext.

00:18:10.060 But in real life,

00:18:10.880 we don't want

00:18:11.760 to do something

00:18:13.140 that's unethical

00:18:13.980 or unreal.

00:18:14.980 So you have to choose

00:18:15.900 a pretext

00:18:16.480 that is more realistic.

00:18:18.420 So how do you do that?

00:18:19.120 How do you pretext ethically?

00:18:21.500 So I'll give you

00:18:22.520 an example of my family.

00:18:23.520 So let's say

00:18:23.940 I have my daughter.

00:18:25.240 She did something

00:18:25.940 she wasn't supposed to do.

00:18:27.780 I have a couple pretexts

00:18:29.160 I can approach this as.

00:18:30.360 The angry dad

00:18:31.360 that's here to punish.

00:18:33.200 The empathetic dad

00:18:34.580 that wants to understand

00:18:35.620 why you did this

00:18:36.740 or the, you know,

00:18:38.020 aloof, confused dad

00:18:39.380 that has no clue

00:18:40.180 what's going on.

00:18:41.440 Gotcha.

00:18:41.900 And you can do this

00:18:42.340 if you're a boss.

00:18:43.180 You can be angry boss,

00:18:44.660 concerned boss,

00:18:46.080 et cetera.

00:18:47.100 And how do you figure out

00:18:48.240 like which pretext it takes?

00:18:49.480 Is it just based

00:18:49.960 on the situation,

00:18:51.260 the personality

00:18:51.980 of the person?

00:18:52.720 How do you figure it out?

00:18:53.260 Yeah, that's a great question,

00:18:54.120 by the way.

00:18:54.400 So there's a couple factors.

00:18:55.840 First is the situation,

00:18:56.940 as you mentioned.

00:18:57.560 That's number one.

00:18:58.560 But then really,

00:18:59.540 the next thing

00:19:00.020 you have to think about

00:19:00.540 is what is the desired outcome?

00:19:02.740 So what do I want, right?

00:19:03.980 So let's use your situation

00:19:05.080 as a boss.

00:19:05.900 So let's say,

00:19:07.000 you know,

00:19:07.200 I work for you

00:19:08.100 and I did something

00:19:09.320 pretty stupid at work

00:19:10.420 and you need to tell me.

00:19:11.860 So you have a couple pretexts.

00:19:13.280 You could be the boss

00:19:14.080 that comes in and says,

00:19:15.060 listen, moron,

00:19:15.720 that was really dumb.

00:19:17.060 Like, I can't believe

00:19:17.920 you did that.

00:19:19.140 Or you can be the boss

00:19:20.420 that tries to understand

00:19:21.440 why did you do this

00:19:22.660 and let's figure out

00:19:23.420 how to fix it.

00:19:24.720 Now, the outcome

00:19:25.700 is different.

00:19:26.560 If you're ready to fire me

00:19:27.800 and you don't want

00:19:29.180 to retain me

00:19:29.860 as an employee,

00:19:31.020 then maybe you do

00:19:32.080 the first one.

00:19:33.220 You get me in the office

00:19:34.100 and you say,

00:19:34.620 look, that thing you did,

00:19:35.800 it was way beyond,

00:19:36.900 I can't handle it.

00:19:38.200 You're relieved

00:19:38.960 of your employment.

00:19:40.560 But maybe you say,

00:19:41.700 I want to keep Chris here.

00:19:43.300 He's a pretty good employee

00:19:44.380 and I don't understand

00:19:45.040 why he did this.

00:19:46.300 So you pull me in the office

00:19:47.400 and you're like,

00:19:47.780 Chris, I need to understand

00:19:49.080 this thing that happened

00:19:50.780 and it's really messing up

00:19:51.740 the company.

00:19:52.260 Can you explain to me

00:19:53.220 what your thinking was?

00:19:54.780 And that action

00:19:55.820 will result in your

00:19:57.280 desired action,

00:19:58.580 even though you may be

00:19:59.440 really angry

00:20:00.120 and you want to take

00:20:01.100 pretext number one,

00:20:02.700 your end result,

00:20:04.200 your desired result

00:20:05.380 would occur more

00:20:06.700 by pretext two.

00:20:08.380 Gotcha.

00:20:08.580 So the end goal

00:20:09.420 determines the pretext.

00:20:10.780 Yes.

00:20:11.220 Okay.

00:20:11.700 So you've set the pretext,

00:20:13.840 you got that going.

00:20:14.880 The next part is,

00:20:16.440 and hacking humans,

00:20:17.420 social engineering,

00:20:18.080 is developing rapport

00:20:19.180 with someone.

00:20:19.960 And we've had

00:20:20.400 a guest of your,

00:20:21.520 a partner of yours

00:20:22.180 on our podcast,

00:20:22.900 who are Robin Durek,

00:20:23.600 who writes and talks

00:20:24.760 and trains a lot about this.

00:20:26.020 How do you define rapport

00:20:28.520 when it comes to communication?

00:20:30.840 Yeah, I love Robin,

00:20:32.120 by the way,

00:20:32.620 and it's his work

00:20:33.520 from his very first book

00:20:35.140 that I really base

00:20:36.240 all of this on.

00:20:37.440 Because building rapport

00:20:38.400 is like building that connection

00:20:39.780 between two people,

00:20:41.520 allowing two people

00:20:42.280 to feel comfortable

00:20:43.060 with each other,

00:20:43.940 finding that middle ground

00:20:45.180 and allowing them

00:20:45.980 to communicate

00:20:46.640 in open space comfortably.

00:20:48.780 When I talk about rapport

00:20:50.300 in my classes,

00:20:51.520 I often say things like,

00:20:53.100 you have to answer

00:20:53.780 four things

00:20:54.760 to help build rapport.

00:20:56.580 So who are you?

00:20:57.760 What do you want?

00:20:58.900 How long will this take?

00:21:00.260 And are you a threat?

00:21:01.940 If you can answer

00:21:02.780 those four things

00:21:03.880 by using one

00:21:05.220 of the 10 principles

00:21:06.100 that Robin talks about

00:21:07.260 in his first book

00:21:07.960 about rapport,

00:21:09.180 you can build

00:21:09.900 a strong relationship

00:21:11.160 with even a complete stranger

00:21:12.980 that can make you

00:21:14.840 become very friendly

00:21:16.020 and you can get

00:21:16.800 almost anything you want.

00:21:18.520 We're going to take a quick break

00:21:19.540 for your words

00:21:20.000 from our sponsors.

00:21:20.600 And now back

00:21:24.260 to the show.

00:21:25.620 So Robin talks a lot

00:21:26.320 this can take,

00:21:27.200 he's coming from

00:21:27.980 like anti-terrorism

00:21:29.520 perspective

00:21:30.100 and for him,

00:21:31.120 like he'd have to develop

00:21:31.980 this rapport

00:21:32.720 sometimes over years,

00:21:33.940 right?

00:21:34.780 To get a target.

00:21:36.480 How can you do this

00:21:37.060 on the fly with somebody?

00:21:37.960 Let's say you're just,

00:21:38.600 you're meeting someone

00:21:39.200 for the first time.

00:21:40.040 How do you develop that

00:21:41.020 where they just,

00:21:41.700 they want to connect with you

00:21:43.000 and they want to open up to you?

00:21:44.640 Yeah.

00:21:44.840 And let me just state something

00:21:46.180 about why with Robin

00:21:47.420 it would take

00:21:48.040 that much longer.

00:21:49.180 it's the level

00:21:50.940 of the ask

00:21:51.800 is determined

00:21:53.260 by the level

00:21:54.100 of rapport,

00:21:55.720 right?

00:21:55.920 So if you,

00:21:56.720 if you and I just met,

00:21:57.980 right?

00:21:58.140 So we just met

00:21:58.740 for the first time

00:21:59.520 and let's say we're in person

00:22:00.720 even though we're not

00:22:01.940 and you know,

00:22:02.460 we're friendly,

00:22:03.180 we're having a nice chat

00:22:04.340 but we're not at that level

00:22:06.080 of rapport

00:22:06.600 where I can be like,

00:22:07.700 hey Brett,

00:22:08.140 you want to come over

00:22:08.900 and help me move

00:22:09.540 all the furniture

00:22:10.100 in my house?

00:22:11.120 I need,

00:22:11.360 I need a,

00:22:11.820 need a strong back,

00:22:13.280 right?

00:22:13.420 I can't do that

00:22:14.280 because we're not there yet.

00:22:16.200 Our rapport

00:22:16.740 is not at that level.

00:22:17.920 So what Robin

00:22:19.720 is asking his targets

00:22:21.180 to do

00:22:21.620 is basically become

00:22:22.720 a source

00:22:23.940 for the government

00:22:25.360 that's not theirs.

00:22:26.840 You need a pretty big level

00:22:28.620 of rapport

00:22:29.100 to make that ask.

00:22:30.280 So in my accounts,

00:22:32.320 my rapport generally

00:22:33.300 when I'm breaking

00:22:33.820 into a building,

00:22:34.460 I just need you

00:22:34.900 to like me enough

00:22:35.640 to let me through

00:22:36.740 and not stop me

00:22:37.520 for the next five minutes.

00:22:38.940 So I don't need you

00:22:39.760 to be my best friend.

00:22:41.100 I don't need you

00:22:41.780 to fall in love with me.

00:22:42.800 I just need slight rapport.

00:22:44.580 So I generally do that

00:22:45.800 through something

00:22:46.640 that we call

00:22:47.160 active listening,

00:22:48.440 which is when you really

00:22:49.340 show an interest

00:22:50.100 in a person,

00:22:51.200 they feel liked.

00:22:52.680 And when they feel liked,

00:22:53.760 they release dopamine

00:22:54.700 and oxytocin.

00:22:56.280 That brain soup

00:22:57.520 makes them feel

00:22:58.260 really compliant

00:22:59.180 with the things

00:22:59.680 you're asking

00:23:00.140 and it makes them

00:23:01.200 easier to trust you

00:23:02.880 because no one thinks

00:23:04.600 that a nice guy

00:23:05.520 can do anything wrong.

00:23:07.420 So if they trust you

00:23:08.340 and like you,

00:23:09.140 they'll think

00:23:09.520 that you're not nefarious

00:23:11.440 and that they'll let you in.

00:23:12.880 So just be friendly.

00:23:14.420 Rapport is all about

00:23:15.220 being friendly.

00:23:16.220 It is.

00:23:16.720 Be friendly

00:23:17.180 and be interested

00:23:18.320 in the other person.

00:23:20.000 See, people quickly know

00:23:21.140 when you're there

00:23:21.920 just for your goal.

00:23:23.780 They can quickly

00:23:24.380 figure that out, right?

00:23:25.580 And if you're there

00:23:26.820 to help others

00:23:28.240 and you're interested

00:23:29.960 in them,

00:23:30.920 they're more readily

00:23:31.740 to ignore anything

00:23:33.040 weird about you

00:23:34.020 because they're focused

00:23:35.400 on that great feeling

00:23:36.940 that you left with them.

00:23:37.980 And how do you do this

00:23:38.920 in, say,

00:23:39.440 a close relationship

00:23:40.540 with your kid?

00:23:41.440 What would a rapport

00:23:42.640 building look like that?

00:23:43.620 Say your kid

00:23:44.320 did something wrong

00:23:45.200 and you got to talk

00:23:45.800 to him about it.

00:23:46.580 You've got the pretext.

00:23:47.820 You figured,

00:23:48.240 okay, I'm going to be

00:23:49.020 kind, understanding dad.

00:23:51.700 Now, my kid's upset.

00:23:54.240 He's probably angry at me.

00:23:55.380 He's going to push back.

00:23:56.060 How do I break that barrier

00:23:57.740 and develop some rapport

00:23:59.080 between the two of us

00:24:00.460 for this conversation?

00:24:01.900 That's a good scenario too.

00:24:03.880 So we first may have to

00:24:05.260 look at the situation

00:24:06.240 and we say,

00:24:07.380 okay, what is this?

00:24:08.160 So let's use,

00:24:09.080 you know, my son,

00:24:09.820 he did this thing.

00:24:10.620 He, I think I tell

00:24:11.900 this story in the book.

00:24:12.860 I do tell the story

00:24:13.480 in the book.

00:24:13.880 He got into a fight

00:24:14.760 at a party

00:24:15.380 and he didn't want

00:24:18.020 to talk to us about it

00:24:18.940 because he was embarrassed.

00:24:20.460 So the rapport building

00:24:21.720 for me has to be first,

00:24:23.140 hey, tell me,

00:24:23.660 how did it go last night?

00:24:24.600 Did you have a good time?

00:24:25.960 Oh yeah, I did this,

00:24:26.920 this and this.

00:24:27.380 Oh, that's great.

00:24:28.320 And you have a conversation

00:24:29.780 about the things he liked.

00:24:31.620 What that does,

00:24:32.760 that gets him

00:24:33.580 in his mindset of,

00:24:35.360 oh, I'm telling dad

00:24:36.100 all about the great things.

00:24:37.000 The people I hung out

00:24:37.860 with, the games we played,

00:24:38.860 they had this kind of music,

00:24:40.040 oh, I ate this food.

00:24:41.360 Now when his mindset

00:24:42.500 is in a place of comfort,

00:24:44.800 I say, so hey,

00:24:45.760 what happened

00:24:46.320 between you and Stuart?

00:24:49.080 And now all of a sudden,

00:24:50.900 you know,

00:24:51.320 he is less uncomfortable

00:24:53.080 and he's like,

00:24:54.020 well, something,

00:24:54.880 you know,

00:24:55.160 something happened bad.

00:24:56.300 We got into a,

00:24:56.880 we got into a little scuffle.

00:24:58.000 Oh, really?

00:24:58.500 That's a shame.

00:24:59.420 You know, tell me what happened.

00:25:00.820 And now I don't change my tune.

00:25:02.200 Like as soon as he tells me,

00:25:02.980 I don't go, what?

00:25:03.780 You did what?

00:25:05.040 I still keep it

00:25:05.800 that same pretext

00:25:06.700 because you never break pretext.

00:25:08.060 And I'm like,

00:25:08.420 oh man,

00:25:09.220 I'm sorry to hear that.

00:25:10.480 What happened?

00:25:11.060 You know,

00:25:11.240 and you become

00:25:12.640 that active listener.

00:25:14.240 He feels like,

00:25:15.260 okay, dad's actually not mad.

00:25:16.960 I can open up a little more.

00:25:18.820 And if at any point

00:25:19.820 during that,

00:25:20.400 I break pretext

00:25:21.340 and start being like,

00:25:22.120 what the heck

00:25:22.800 is wrong with you?

00:25:23.960 He's going to shut

00:25:24.780 right back up

00:25:25.460 and not want to open up to me.

00:25:27.160 So it's,

00:25:27.960 you know,

00:25:28.080 once you choose that pretext,

00:25:29.480 you've got to stick to it.

00:25:30.960 And let's say

00:25:31.380 he was completely

00:25:32.120 in the wrong

00:25:32.680 and punishment

00:25:34.480 needs to occur.

00:25:36.080 Well,

00:25:36.380 my goal of this conversation

00:25:38.180 wasn't discipline.

00:25:40.140 My goal of that conversation

00:25:41.640 was to find out facts.

00:25:43.320 So let me keep my pretext.

00:25:45.340 And at the end of it,

00:25:46.320 I say,

00:25:47.560 you know,

00:25:48.060 Colin,

00:25:48.340 this sounds like

00:25:48.920 a pretty bad situation.

00:25:50.060 We're going to have to talk

00:25:50.820 about what we need to do,

00:25:52.020 but I can see

00:25:53.080 you're pretty emotional.

00:25:54.080 Why don't we,

00:25:54.560 you know,

00:25:54.800 stop for now

00:25:55.600 and we can talk

00:25:56.440 a little bit later

00:25:57.120 about how we have

00:25:58.300 to handle the situation.

00:26:00.220 Now I end the conversation

00:26:01.740 with rapport,

00:26:02.900 with keeping my pretext.

00:26:04.400 He sees I never broke that.

00:26:06.380 I let the emotion pass.

00:26:07.960 We come back

00:26:08.500 a little bit later

00:26:09.160 and say,

00:26:10.120 okay,

00:26:10.440 Colin,

00:26:10.740 thanks for talking to me

00:26:11.400 about that.

00:26:11.880 Now we need to talk

00:26:12.400 about how we're going

00:26:13.260 to fix this.

00:26:14.580 You know,

00:26:14.740 obviously you may have

00:26:15.380 to go apologize

00:26:16.180 and blah,

00:26:17.340 blah,

00:26:17.460 blah.

00:26:17.520 And we go through

00:26:18.020 some steps,

00:26:18.640 but I didn't break

00:26:20.120 the pretext

00:26:20.760 of that compassionate dad

00:26:22.080 and jump into

00:26:23.320 a new pretext

00:26:24.140 just because

00:26:24.680 I felt I had to.

00:26:26.340 When you do that

00:26:26.960 and communication,

00:26:28.140 trust,

00:26:28.940 rapport,

00:26:29.400 it gets built

00:26:30.000 and you can have

00:26:31.140 long-term effects

00:26:32.260 on you,

00:26:32.840 your family,

00:26:33.360 your employees,

00:26:34.000 stuff like that

00:26:34.540 for a very long time.

00:26:36.580 Gotcha.

00:26:36.980 All right,

00:26:37.260 so we've pretexted,

00:26:38.800 we've built rapport,

00:26:40.480 and let's say

00:26:41.020 in this conversation

00:26:41.500 we're trying

00:26:42.060 to persuade,

00:26:43.160 right?

00:26:43.420 so we've got

00:26:45.080 a child

00:26:46.040 who's staying

00:26:46.780 out past curfew

00:26:47.860 and we want

00:26:49.160 to persuade them

00:26:50.200 by not using

00:26:51.120 coercion necessarily,

00:26:52.540 but gently nudge

00:26:53.740 them so they can

00:26:54.920 start complying

00:26:55.800 with the curfew.

00:26:57.040 How does that

00:26:57.740 look like?

00:26:58.760 What are some skills

00:26:59.520 that you use

00:27:00.300 as a social engineer

00:27:01.420 that can be used

00:27:03.060 in everyday

00:27:03.760 social interactions?

00:27:06.100 Yeah,

00:27:06.280 so that's

00:27:07.340 another good scenario.

00:27:08.560 So,

00:27:08.740 you know,

00:27:08.920 the worst time

00:27:10.060 to talk

00:27:11.220 to get compliance

00:27:13.200 from your kids

00:27:13.840 is after they've

00:27:14.720 right then

00:27:15.700 done the bad thing,

00:27:16.720 right?

00:27:17.000 They're less likely

00:27:18.220 to be compliant

00:27:19.680 with that.

00:27:20.620 So,

00:27:20.940 what I would normally

00:27:21.960 say is

00:27:22.740 when you know

00:27:23.300 you're having a problem,

00:27:24.120 your kid's coming home

00:27:24.940 past curfew,

00:27:25.680 he's done it a few times,

00:27:27.300 so maybe you're sitting

00:27:28.200 there one day

00:27:28.760 at the dinner table

00:27:29.500 and you start

00:27:31.160 a conversation.

00:27:32.040 Say,

00:27:32.280 hey,

00:27:32.660 you know,

00:27:32.980 I'll use my kid again.

00:27:33.900 Colin,

00:27:34.280 you know,

00:27:34.440 he's older than this now,

00:27:35.380 but I can use a scenario

00:27:36.260 when he wasn't.

00:27:37.480 Colin,

00:27:37.780 you're like 17 now,

00:27:38.960 you know,

00:27:39.160 what do you think

00:27:40.100 your curfew should be?

00:27:42.460 I'm just curious.

00:27:43.520 What do you think,

00:27:44.120 what time do most

00:27:45.020 of your friends

00:27:45.500 have as a curfew?

00:27:46.820 And he says,

00:27:47.640 12 a.m.

00:27:49.780 Okay,

00:27:50.220 so right now,

00:27:51.120 what do we have it at again?

00:27:52.300 He's like,

00:27:52.980 he says to me,

00:27:53.620 10,

00:27:53.800 now I know what the answer,

00:27:54.680 right,

00:27:54.780 but I'm asking him

00:27:55.400 to state it out loud.

00:27:56.620 What time do we have?

00:27:58.220 10.30.

00:27:59.260 That's so early

00:28:00.260 compared to my friends

00:28:01.280 and I'm like,

00:28:01.700 okay,

00:28:01.980 yeah,

00:28:02.140 I can understand that.

00:28:03.540 I said,

00:28:03.880 how about this?

00:28:05.100 How about I raise it to 11

00:28:07.040 and if you can,

00:28:08.860 if you can get

00:28:10.040 here on time

00:28:11.240 for a period of time,

00:28:13.600 we'll raise it

00:28:14.200 and he's like,

00:28:14.880 okay,

00:28:16.000 and I'm like,

00:28:16.520 so how long do you think

00:28:17.580 you should comply

00:28:18.520 with this new time

00:28:20.460 in order to earn

00:28:21.840 another half an hour?

00:28:24.320 I'll say that to him.

00:28:25.100 Now I'm asking him

00:28:25.720 for his opinion.

00:28:26.520 You tell me how long

00:28:27.400 and he'll be like,

00:28:28.640 how about one week

00:28:29.920 and I'm like,

00:28:30.320 well,

00:28:31.160 you know,

00:28:31.360 you don't go out every night.

00:28:32.500 You only go out

00:28:33.300 like on the weekends.

00:28:34.020 So how about we say

00:28:35.080 for three weeks,

00:28:36.940 if you can be on time

00:28:38.180 for three weeks,

00:28:38.960 then I'll add

00:28:40.600 another half an hour.

00:28:41.980 Okay,

00:28:42.420 deal.

00:28:42.820 Now let's shake on it.

00:28:43.920 So now he's going

00:28:44.580 to work harder

00:28:45.320 at complying

00:28:46.680 to this new rule

00:28:47.500 because he's the one

00:28:48.500 who came up

00:28:48.960 with the three weeks

00:28:50.600 even though it was

00:28:51.220 my idea of prodding him

00:28:52.420 and he's going to work

00:28:54.160 really hard for that.

00:28:55.040 Now three weeks

00:28:55.540 is going to come.

00:28:56.100 He's like,

00:28:56.260 dad,

00:28:56.420 I did it.

00:28:57.000 Okay,

00:28:57.280 great.

00:28:57.640 Now your curfew

00:28:58.300 is 1130.

00:28:59.420 Where I would ruin this

00:29:00.560 is if I said,

00:29:01.340 yeah,

00:29:01.540 you did it,

00:29:02.060 but I really don't want

00:29:02.740 you to be home

00:29:03.140 at 1130

00:29:03.780 because I thought

00:29:04.680 you were going to fail.

00:29:05.560 I've just ruined

00:29:06.080 all my trust with him.

00:29:07.420 So you can't do that.

00:29:08.580 So if you're going

00:29:09.440 to commit to this,

00:29:10.620 you have to commit to it.

00:29:12.200 So now he does it

00:29:13.300 for three weeks.

00:29:14.000 He gets his 1130.

00:29:15.420 Say,

00:29:15.780 okay,

00:29:16.020 Colin,

00:29:16.300 I know you really want

00:29:17.100 your curfew

00:29:17.500 to be midnight.

00:29:18.240 So how about this?

00:29:18.960 Because that's really late

00:29:19.840 for me.

00:29:20.400 It makes me worried.

00:29:21.900 So how about

00:29:22.840 we do a four week period

00:29:25.020 for this next curfew

00:29:26.320 and if in one month

00:29:27.880 you're still doing it,

00:29:28.800 great,

00:29:29.360 then we'll raise it

00:29:30.100 to midnight.

00:29:31.140 It's like,

00:29:31.380 okay,

00:29:31.640 great.

00:29:31.860 And then we make

00:29:34.700 some rules up

00:29:35.300 because we know

00:29:35.760 there's going to be mistakes.

00:29:37.060 So hey,

00:29:37.300 if you're out,

00:29:37.960 Colin,

00:29:38.160 and you think

00:29:38.540 you're going to be late,

00:29:39.780 you've got to call me

00:29:40.660 before that one minute mark.

00:29:43.800 Tell me what's happened.

00:29:44.740 Tell me why

00:29:45.260 you're going to be late.

00:29:46.600 Just because you're late

00:29:47.620 once doesn't mean

00:29:48.160 we're going to deep six

00:29:49.020 this deal.

00:29:50.240 We may have to talk

00:29:51.160 about the reason.

00:29:52.680 So it can't be,

00:29:53.860 ooh,

00:29:54.000 I forgot to look

00:29:54.860 at my clock.

00:29:56.360 So let's talk about this.

00:29:57.700 And we give them options

00:29:58.700 to also communicate

00:30:00.140 more openly

00:30:00.900 I found that

00:30:02.380 to get a lot

00:30:02.940 better compliance

00:30:03.660 with my kids.

00:30:05.240 Well,

00:30:05.280 I think that's for anybody.

00:30:06.560 People like to feel

00:30:07.720 like they have choices.

00:30:09.120 If someone feels

00:30:09.940 like they're making

00:30:10.660 the choice,

00:30:11.420 they're more likely

00:30:12.100 to comply,

00:30:14.420 which just sounds

00:30:14.920 counterintuitive.

00:30:16.240 You think if you

00:30:16.960 constrain people's choices,

00:30:18.180 they would comply,

00:30:18.660 but that's not how it works.

00:30:20.260 It's not.

00:30:20.800 No,

00:30:20.980 because sometimes

00:30:21.620 the act of noncompliance

00:30:23.760 is just that

00:30:24.880 they feel trapped.

00:30:25.920 And when you feel trapped,

00:30:27.840 your only option

00:30:28.780 is to not comply.

00:30:31.140 But if you give people

00:30:32.320 options,

00:30:33.220 then compliance

00:30:34.040 generally is not what,

00:30:35.340 especially your kids,

00:30:36.160 is not what they're

00:30:36.780 arguing about.

00:30:37.800 It's just that you

00:30:38.460 didn't give them a choice.

00:30:39.320 You know,

00:30:39.440 I tell this story in the book

00:30:40.680 about when my son was young.

00:30:42.380 At one point,

00:30:43.000 he decided,

00:30:43.740 I'm not eating breakfast

00:30:44.480 anymore before school.

00:30:45.700 And it was affecting

00:30:46.620 his moods

00:30:47.240 and his low blood sugar

00:30:48.100 and all of this

00:30:48.720 at school.

00:30:49.180 And the teachers

00:30:49.620 were complaining

00:30:50.300 and he was,

00:30:50.780 you know,

00:30:51.320 sneaking snacks

00:30:52.100 in the middle of class.

00:30:53.160 And so I kept saying,

00:30:54.300 you have to eat,

00:30:54.920 you know,

00:30:55.060 and I was doing it

00:30:55.700 the wrong way.

00:30:56.480 Then I came up

00:30:57.260 with this idea.

00:30:58.020 You know what?

00:30:58.740 I'm going to ask him

00:30:59.400 before bed one night.

00:31:00.420 Okay,

00:31:00.700 Colin,

00:31:01.000 tomorrow morning,

00:31:01.560 what do you want?

00:31:02.080 Oatmeal or eggs?

00:31:03.440 He's like,

00:31:03.780 oatmeal.

00:31:04.220 Like,

00:31:04.440 great.

00:31:04.640 How do you want it?

00:31:05.340 I'll make it any way

00:31:06.200 you want.

00:31:06.660 Now he has a choice.

00:31:07.500 I want it with honey

00:31:08.800 and brown sugar.

00:31:10.100 Okay,

00:31:10.300 great.

00:31:10.580 Done.

00:31:11.200 Next morning,

00:31:11.680 he gets up,

00:31:12.200 there's a bowl of oatmeal

00:31:12.880 the way he wanted it.

00:31:14.240 It was his choice.

00:31:15.780 Delivered the way

00:31:16.440 he asked for it.

00:31:17.720 We won.

00:31:18.640 He ate oatmeal so much

00:31:19.940 that to this day,

00:31:20.840 he's now in his 20s.

00:31:22.140 He hates oatmeal.

00:31:25.800 And you do this

00:31:26.700 sort of giving people

00:31:27.460 options in your

00:31:28.420 social engineering.

00:31:29.800 Like,

00:31:29.960 you'll go to a desk

00:31:30.700 and instead of saying,

00:31:31.840 hey,

00:31:31.940 you let me in,

00:31:32.640 I'm the electrician,

00:31:34.100 it'd be like,

00:31:34.700 if they say no,

00:31:35.400 you're like,

00:31:35.720 oh,

00:31:35.940 well,

00:31:36.060 is there anything

00:31:36.360 we can do?

00:31:37.280 I mean,

00:31:37.460 is there something

00:31:37.860 we can do

00:31:38.820 to make this happen?

00:31:39.620 And you give person

00:31:41.100 like the choice decision

00:31:42.380 to say yes or no.

00:31:44.200 And a lot of times

00:31:45.240 what I do

00:31:45.760 is I give them a choice

00:31:46.760 that both leads

00:31:47.840 to me

00:31:49.400 getting what I want,

00:31:51.000 but they feel like

00:31:52.120 they have the choice.

00:31:53.740 Right.

00:31:54.080 So what would be

00:31:54.720 an example of this?

00:31:55.560 Like,

00:31:55.680 how would that?

00:31:56.540 So I went into a place

00:31:57.580 once where we knew

00:31:58.700 the guy was on vacation.

00:32:00.000 He went on Facebook,

00:32:01.720 he put on Facebook,

00:32:03.200 he was going on vacation,

00:32:04.280 he put that he was flying,

00:32:05.860 he took pictures

00:32:06.920 of him there

00:32:07.440 and then he said,

00:32:08.040 I'm offline until,

00:32:09.380 you know,

00:32:09.720 February 14th.

00:32:10.840 So we knew

00:32:11.440 we had some time.

00:32:12.880 So when I went

00:32:13.400 into the place

00:32:14.120 expecting that

00:32:14.940 the gatekeeper

00:32:15.960 would just fall for that,

00:32:17.080 you know,

00:32:17.180 hey,

00:32:17.420 Jack asked me to come,

00:32:18.540 he said he's on vacation

00:32:19.440 here at this island,

00:32:20.760 he won't be back

00:32:21.400 to the 14th,

00:32:22.060 he wanted me

00:32:22.420 to fix his computer.

00:32:23.880 She was like,

00:32:24.600 no,

00:32:25.060 you're not in the book,

00:32:25.780 I'm not letting you in.

00:32:27.280 So now I had to come up

00:32:28.360 with the choice.

00:32:29.420 Okay,

00:32:30.220 well,

00:32:30.680 listen,

00:32:31.040 Beth,

00:32:31.320 I'll leave,

00:32:31.900 but I need you

00:32:32.320 to sign this document

00:32:33.280 saying you're rejecting

00:32:34.200 the appointment.

00:32:35.620 And I hand her the clipboard

00:32:36.880 and she grabs it

00:32:37.720 and she's,

00:32:38.380 and as,

00:32:38.960 right before she signs it,

00:32:40.520 I say,

00:32:41.120 because I won't be able

00:32:41.920 to make it back

00:32:42.660 probably until the end of March

00:32:44.140 because that's the next

00:32:44.820 appointment I have open.

00:32:46.440 And she's like,

00:32:46.980 oh no,

00:32:47.500 if he's having a problem

00:32:48.340 with the computer,

00:32:48.860 you need to come back

00:32:49.460 in February when he's back.

00:32:51.520 And I said,

00:32:51.980 well,

00:32:52.320 I explained to Jack

00:32:53.180 when he called

00:32:53.680 that we had only two slots,

00:32:55.100 he chose this one,

00:32:55.940 the other one's full now,

00:32:57.460 so I can't come back

00:32:58.340 until March.

00:32:59.800 And she's like,

00:33:00.340 well,

00:33:00.420 I don't want to sign this then.

00:33:01.760 And I'm like,

00:33:02.660 I said,

00:33:02.960 Beth,

00:33:03.120 come on,

00:33:03.320 you understand the rules here.

00:33:04.600 If I go back to my boss

00:33:05.960 and say I didn't do this job,

00:33:07.200 he's going to ask why.

00:33:08.560 I'm going to have to tell him

00:33:09.380 that you wouldn't let me do the job

00:33:11.000 because Jack probably forgot

00:33:12.140 because he was so excited

00:33:13.100 about going on his first vacation.

00:33:15.020 So you tell me,

00:33:16.000 how do you think

00:33:17.160 I should handle this?

00:33:18.640 And she just stares at that paper

00:33:20.280 for like a full 10 seconds,

00:33:22.020 which is super long,

00:33:23.280 you know,

00:33:23.620 and I don't say anything.

00:33:24.780 You just got to stay quiet,

00:33:25.820 let them think.

00:33:26.940 And then she huffs

00:33:27.880 and she goes,

00:33:28.380 okay,

00:33:28.800 come on,

00:33:29.140 come with me.

00:33:30.060 But I'm going to go

00:33:30.920 in the office first

00:33:31.700 and shut some things up

00:33:32.820 just for security.

00:33:34.280 And I'm like,

00:33:35.040 okay.

00:33:35.360 So she goes in

00:33:36.120 and she shuts his closet

00:33:37.120 where his whiteboard is.

00:33:38.660 She shuts all his desk drawers.

00:33:40.520 She turns some papers over

00:33:41.980 on his desk.

00:33:43.120 And then she goes,

00:33:44.080 okay,

00:33:44.400 you can go in.

00:33:45.460 And she lets me in

00:33:46.480 to the office and leaves.

00:33:48.920 So I,

00:33:49.340 you know,

00:33:49.460 open the clipboard

00:33:50.360 or open the whiteboard,

00:33:51.720 turn the papers over,

00:33:52.880 open the desk,

00:33:53.920 hack the computer,

00:33:54.840 you know,

00:33:55.280 and then I leave.

00:33:55.960 But it was her choice

00:33:57.520 that I gave her

00:33:58.280 that allowed me to win that.

00:34:00.140 All right.

00:34:00.280 So yeah,

00:34:00.520 but in this example,

00:34:01.340 you wouldn't want to lie

00:34:02.240 to your kid saying,

00:34:03.580 Oh no,

00:34:04.400 you're not doing it.

00:34:05.060 But it's just the underlying

00:34:06.200 principle is what you're trying

00:34:07.120 to get across with this.

00:34:08.260 Give people choices.

00:34:09.500 With your kid,

00:34:10.280 it's kind of like what I did

00:34:11.280 with the oatmeal.

00:34:12.180 You know,

00:34:12.360 with my kid,

00:34:12.880 both of those choices were good.

00:34:14.940 Both of those choices

00:34:15.820 got what I wanted,

00:34:16.940 which was him eating

00:34:17.860 some food in the morning

00:34:18.800 so he didn't have

00:34:19.500 a problem in school.

00:34:21.120 And all I did

00:34:22.040 was allow him

00:34:22.820 to make the choice

00:34:23.740 of which one

00:34:24.380 of those options he wants.

00:34:25.520 So as long as he makes

00:34:27.020 one of those two choices,

00:34:28.460 in essence,

00:34:29.020 I win,

00:34:29.640 but he had the options

00:34:31.280 to choose.

00:34:32.960 In the book,

00:34:33.420 in this chapter

00:34:33.880 about influence,

00:34:34.840 you make a distinction

00:34:35.580 between influence

00:34:36.420 and manipulation.

00:34:37.560 I think the distinction

00:34:39.020 is this,

00:34:39.620 is that manipulation

00:34:40.500 is you're often

00:34:41.940 using emotions,

00:34:43.700 like strong emotions

00:34:44.800 to get people

00:34:45.960 to do something.

00:34:46.860 So it's usually fear.

00:34:48.220 Fear is the big one.

00:34:49.280 Yeah.

00:34:49.460 So if you ever see

00:34:50.140 or find yourself

00:34:50.940 resorting to that,

00:34:52.880 you're no longer

00:34:53.560 influencing,

00:34:54.520 you are manipulating.

00:34:55.920 Yeah.

00:34:56.480 And you take away

00:34:57.520 the power of decision

00:34:59.280 from the person,

00:35:00.140 right?

00:35:00.820 Because if you're

00:35:01.400 bringing fear,

00:35:01.980 like if I went in

00:35:02.900 to my son's room

00:35:04.400 in that same example

00:35:05.500 and I went,

00:35:06.220 listen,

00:35:06.840 if you don't eat

00:35:08.140 breakfast tomorrow,

00:35:09.260 you're grounded

00:35:10.060 from TV,

00:35:11.160 iPad,

00:35:11.720 electronics,

00:35:12.400 video games

00:35:12.980 for a month.

00:35:13.700 And every day

00:35:14.440 you don't eat,

00:35:15.360 you're getting

00:35:15.920 another month

00:35:16.680 of grounding.

00:35:17.640 He may comply,

00:35:18.880 but it's not

00:35:19.720 because he made

00:35:20.580 a choice

00:35:21.060 or he sees

00:35:21.720 the value in it.

00:35:22.680 He's only going

00:35:23.480 to do it

00:35:23.840 because of fear

00:35:24.480 of punishment.

00:35:25.780 So I got

00:35:26.520 compliance,

00:35:27.320 but that's not,

00:35:29.160 it's not the way

00:35:29.820 to do it.

00:35:30.580 By getting him

00:35:31.420 to comply

00:35:32.060 with options

00:35:32.940 and him

00:35:34.040 making the choice,

00:35:35.000 I influenced him

00:35:36.040 to make a decision

00:35:37.200 now he's happy

00:35:38.140 to follow.

00:35:39.300 And not only that,

00:35:40.200 to go on with that story

00:35:41.180 is something I didn't

00:35:41.820 put in the book.

00:35:42.760 There was a few times

00:35:43.720 where I overslept

00:35:44.580 and he would go down

00:35:45.800 and make his own oatmeal

00:35:46.700 because that was his choice.

00:35:48.480 He had committed

00:35:49.080 to it in his mind.

00:35:49.840 He committed

00:35:50.360 that this was the thing

00:35:51.500 he was going to eat

00:35:52.000 for breakfast,

00:35:52.720 so he made his own oatmeal.

00:35:54.780 And that was winning

00:35:56.220 because he made the choice.

00:35:57.700 He did it.

00:35:57.940 He wasn't manipulated.

00:35:59.080 It wasn't out of fear.

00:36:00.240 It wasn't out of punishment.

00:36:01.600 So it was influenced

00:36:02.740 to make him

00:36:03.360 have that choice.

00:36:04.300 And I think that's a good

00:36:05.440 takeaway to avoid

00:36:06.900 being manipulated

00:36:07.580 is if you are

00:36:08.680 in a conversation

00:36:09.320 and you are suddenly

00:36:10.520 feeling uncomfortable,

00:36:12.860 a lot of emotion,

00:36:13.860 you got to notice that.

00:36:14.980 Like notice that

00:36:15.600 and it's probably

00:36:16.200 a red flag

00:36:16.920 that you're being

00:36:18.040 manipulated right now

00:36:19.420 and you should

00:36:20.220 pay more attention.

00:36:22.320 You know,

00:36:22.720 it kind of

00:36:23.240 to play off the name

00:36:23.880 of your podcast,

00:36:24.660 to me,

00:36:24.820 it doesn't feel too manly

00:36:26.100 to be a manipulator.

00:36:28.280 More power.

00:36:29.320 I mean,

00:36:29.580 I always ask people

00:36:30.500 when I'm teaching

00:36:31.060 to think of someone

00:36:32.440 who they consider

00:36:33.460 truly humble.

00:36:35.220 And when they think

00:36:36.240 of that person,

00:36:37.160 whoever that person is,

00:36:38.380 I say,

00:36:38.780 give me one or two words

00:36:40.640 that describe how you feel

00:36:42.180 when you hang out

00:36:43.940 with that person.

00:36:45.080 If your listeners

00:36:45.580 are playing along,

00:36:46.340 they probably have

00:36:46.900 a few words in their mind.

00:36:48.740 And I usually get words

00:36:49.780 like empowered,

00:36:51.100 strong,

00:36:52.300 validated,

00:36:53.300 complimented,

00:36:54.540 happy.

00:36:55.780 Now,

00:36:56.360 doesn't that sound awesome?

00:36:58.100 Like if you can

00:36:59.000 leave people

00:37:00.120 feeling that way,

00:37:01.940 that's way more powerful

00:37:03.460 than empowering yourself

00:37:06.100 by manipulating others.

00:37:08.400 So,

00:37:09.240 an important part

00:37:10.640 of social hacking

00:37:11.300 is you're trying

00:37:12.200 to get people

00:37:12.500 to open up to you

00:37:13.320 and divulge information

00:37:14.940 they otherwise

00:37:15.580 wouldn't divulge.

00:37:16.700 And this is called

00:37:17.680 elicitation,

00:37:18.840 correct?

00:37:19.860 Yes.

00:37:20.160 So,

00:37:21.160 in the phishing scam world,

00:37:23.080 elicitation would be

00:37:24.160 getting people to say

00:37:25.020 their PIN number,

00:37:25.840 credit card number,

00:37:26.600 social security numbers,

00:37:27.400 et cetera.

00:37:28.560 What does this look like

00:37:29.600 if you're trying

00:37:30.360 to just talk to someone

00:37:31.780 in an everyday relationship?

00:37:34.660 You know,

00:37:34.820 sometimes I want to find out

00:37:36.100 information about,

00:37:37.260 you know,

00:37:37.900 let's say an employee.

00:37:39.020 Like,

00:37:39.220 why were they in a bad mood

00:37:40.320 this morning?

00:37:40.840 You know,

00:37:41.000 so-and-so came to work

00:37:42.240 and man,

00:37:43.300 she was in a really bad mood

00:37:44.460 and she was snappy

00:37:45.280 with people.

00:37:45.800 She's normally really jovial.

00:37:47.560 So,

00:37:47.840 again,

00:37:48.220 my pretext,

00:37:48.860 I can go up to her

00:37:49.500 and say,

00:37:49.860 hey,

00:37:50.320 what's wrong with you?

00:37:51.020 You're,

00:37:51.280 you know,

00:37:51.500 you're kind of being

00:37:52.140 snappy today.

00:37:53.680 That would be one way.

00:37:54.780 I may embarrass her

00:37:55.740 or call her out,

00:37:56.560 make her feel bad

00:37:57.380 or I can have

00:37:58.980 a conversation with her.

00:38:00.820 So,

00:38:01.060 an elicitation conversation

00:38:02.440 may be something like

00:38:04.340 where we're at the coffee pot,

00:38:06.300 right?

00:38:06.500 We're getting coffee

00:38:07.260 and at the same time

00:38:08.200 and I'm like,

00:38:08.660 oh man,

00:38:09.040 I really need this.

00:38:09.800 This is like my third cup.

00:38:11.120 I had a rough night.

00:38:12.600 I woke up on the wrong side

00:38:14.180 of the bed this morning.

00:38:15.720 So,

00:38:16.000 if I say anything stupid,

00:38:16.860 please just,

00:38:17.540 you know,

00:38:17.740 forgive me.

00:38:18.980 And that conversation

00:38:20.300 may elicit her now

00:38:21.580 to say,

00:38:22.140 yeah,

00:38:22.360 me too,

00:38:22.800 man.

00:38:23.320 Got in a fight

00:38:23.860 with my husband

00:38:24.340 this morning.

00:38:25.300 Just put me

00:38:25.780 in a bad mood.

00:38:26.980 On the way here,

00:38:27.760 I hit a squirrel.

00:38:28.680 You know how much

00:38:29.180 I hate killing animals.

00:38:30.320 Just kind of wrecked

00:38:31.160 my whole day.

00:38:32.060 Just in a total bad mood.

00:38:34.080 I got the answer I wanted

00:38:35.660 but I didn't have

00:38:36.400 to ask the question.

00:38:38.240 That's elicitation.

00:38:39.620 Right.

00:38:39.880 To get a secret,

00:38:40.820 share a secret.

00:38:42.140 Yeah.

00:38:42.720 Yeah.

00:38:43.020 Quid pro quo.

00:38:43.760 That's what they call it.

00:38:44.460 So,

00:38:44.700 you give a little bit,

00:38:45.860 you get a little bit

00:38:46.840 and in that time

00:38:48.020 she doesn't,

00:38:49.340 she may,

00:38:50.180 you know,

00:38:50.320 later on realize

00:38:51.180 I was asking this

00:38:52.200 but she doesn't feel

00:38:53.340 violated or put on the spot

00:38:56.080 because I didn't come up

00:38:57.380 to her and say,

00:38:57.880 hey,

00:38:57.960 what's up with the attitude?

00:38:59.020 All I did was

00:38:59.880 have a conversation

00:39:00.860 and I told her,

00:39:02.080 now again,

00:39:02.600 if that didn't happen to you,

00:39:04.320 don't make up a lie.

00:39:05.900 You know,

00:39:06.080 don't be like,

00:39:06.700 yeah,

00:39:06.880 on the way here this morning

00:39:07.800 I hit a dog.

00:39:09.100 Really makes me sad.

00:39:10.140 It ruined my day.

00:39:11.000 You know how much

00:39:11.420 I hate killing animals too

00:39:12.840 because you know that about her.

00:39:14.640 Like,

00:39:14.760 that would be a horrible way

00:39:15.760 she finds out

00:39:16.340 that never happened

00:39:17.140 and then you've ruined

00:39:18.480 all your trust,

00:39:20.240 you know?

00:39:21.080 So,

00:39:21.780 yeah,

00:39:22.580 you can't,

00:39:23.080 you know,

00:39:23.220 like you have to make sure

00:39:24.100 it's truthful

00:39:24.700 and,

00:39:25.840 you know,

00:39:25.920 make sure that what you're saying

00:39:27.080 is honest

00:39:27.900 because that,

00:39:29.200 when you ever get caught

00:39:30.180 in that lie,

00:39:31.340 they're going to,

00:39:32.280 you're going to ruin rapport.

00:39:34.400 Well,

00:39:34.460 besides,

00:39:35.080 you know,

00:39:36.020 do the quid pro quo,

00:39:37.500 are there any other

00:39:38.120 elicitation techniques

00:39:39.140 that you think are useful

00:39:40.500 in everyday social interactions?

00:39:42.260 You know,

00:39:42.740 what I love,

00:39:43.460 one of my favorite ones,

00:39:44.600 right,

00:39:44.740 there's a few that I mentioned

00:39:45.620 in the book,

00:39:45.980 but one of my favorite ones

00:39:46.840 is called

00:39:47.160 Deliberate False Statement

00:39:48.240 and that sounds opposite

00:39:50.180 of what I just said

00:39:51.040 about being truthful

00:39:51.860 but let me tell you

00:39:52.960 how it can be used.

00:39:54.380 So,

00:39:54.580 you take a statement

00:39:55.380 that you know

00:39:57.080 isn't truthful

00:39:58.000 but you're not,

00:39:58.660 now I'm not encouraging you

00:39:59.480 to lie.

00:39:59.940 So,

00:40:00.220 I'll give you an example

00:40:01.120 of how this may work.

00:40:01.880 Maybe you and I

00:40:02.520 are in a conversation

00:40:03.320 and you say something like,

00:40:05.600 oh yeah,

00:40:05.920 I've been,

00:40:06.280 you know,

00:40:06.840 running this podcast

00:40:07.680 for X amount of years

00:40:08.940 and I go,

00:40:09.440 really?

00:40:09.920 Wow,

00:40:10.220 you've been doing podcasts

00:40:11.340 for that long?

00:40:13.040 And now that's,

00:40:13.940 I'm faking this surprise

00:40:15.200 but I'm doing it in a way

00:40:17.080 where I'm not just like

00:40:17.960 teasing you

00:40:18.520 or mocking you

00:40:19.320 and now what that does to you

00:40:21.300 is it shows you

00:40:22.260 I'm interested

00:40:23.000 and you keep talking.

00:40:24.940 You'd be like,

00:40:25.280 oh yeah,

00:40:25.760 I remember my early days,

00:40:27.220 this and this and this

00:40:28.100 and then I go,

00:40:29.140 so,

00:40:29.400 I don't know,

00:40:29.820 what is that?

00:40:30.380 Like you must have been,

00:40:31.360 you've been doing it

00:40:32.580 for 10 years,

00:40:33.200 you must have been like,

00:40:33.920 what,

00:40:34.140 like 19 when you started?

00:40:36.220 Right,

00:40:36.620 Deliberate False Statement

00:40:37.560 and you're like,

00:40:38.140 no man,

00:40:38.640 I started when I was like 24.

00:40:40.840 Oh,

00:40:41.140 okay,

00:40:41.340 now I know,

00:40:41.880 you've been doing it for 10 years,

00:40:42.780 you're 24,

00:40:43.300 you're 34 years old.

00:40:45.200 Now I can start to figure out

00:40:46.620 what year you were born.

00:40:48.000 Like,

00:40:48.260 oh,

00:40:48.480 34,

00:40:49.120 oh man,

00:40:49.620 okay,

00:40:50.000 so you're like,

00:40:50.400 you're an 80s baby,

00:40:51.320 wow,

00:40:51.740 that's kind of cool.

00:40:52.920 Man,

00:40:53.080 the 80s were a crazy time,

00:40:54.460 huh?

00:40:55.000 I don't know about you

00:40:55.840 but like,

00:40:56.680 you know,

00:40:57.060 to me,

00:40:57.780 80s,

00:40:58.540 summertime,

00:40:59.200 out of school,

00:40:59.900 that was my favorite time

00:41:01.020 and now we start talking

00:41:02.260 about things you like

00:41:03.080 and I may find out

00:41:03.800 the month you were born.

00:41:05.180 You know,

00:41:05.320 here's a conversation

00:41:06.200 where in just a few sentences

00:41:08.020 with a few principles,

00:41:09.960 I know something about your work,

00:41:11.720 you know,

00:41:11.820 how long you've been podcasting,

00:41:12.940 how old you are,

00:41:13.620 the year you were born,

00:41:14.940 the month you were born,

00:41:15.900 your hobbies during those times

00:41:17.360 and I don't have to use any of that,

00:41:19.840 I just now have all this information

00:41:21.160 on this person

00:41:21.760 that helps me build a relationship.

00:41:23.620 All right,

00:41:23.920 so feign,

00:41:24.800 like feign interest,

00:41:25.860 I mean,

00:41:26.040 you're not feigning,

00:41:26.700 you'd be interested

00:41:27.440 and just sort of say things like,

00:41:28.740 oh,

00:41:28.880 wow,

00:41:29.200 and they're just people

00:41:29.640 just going to open up

00:41:30.260 to correct you.

00:41:31.460 Yeah,

00:41:31.560 and the reason they call it feigned

00:41:32.720 is because you're being surprised

00:41:35.520 and you may not be,

00:41:37.080 but, you know,

00:41:37.400 you don't want to go overboard

00:41:38.320 like,

00:41:38.980 oh my God,

00:41:39.980 you've been 10,

00:41:40.660 what,

00:41:41.000 that's amazing,

00:41:41.940 like that's too much,

00:41:42.900 right?

00:41:43.440 So you don't do that,

00:41:44.500 but you go like,

00:41:45.060 really,

00:41:45.520 10 years?

00:41:46.500 Wow,

00:41:46.940 dude,

00:41:47.140 that's a long time to be,

00:41:48.560 I mean,

00:41:48.720 you were podcasting

00:41:49.620 when it wasn't even popular

00:41:50.580 and that is,

00:41:52.420 that's not a fake statement

00:41:53.760 but maybe the surprise

00:41:55.660 is a little bit

00:41:56.380 but I'm not being,

00:41:57.220 you know,

00:41:57.500 superficial,

00:41:58.700 I'm just doing that

00:41:59.660 because I want you

00:42:00.360 to talk more about it.

00:42:02.020 Gotcha.

00:42:02.540 And this elicitation,

00:42:03.380 this is all part of like,

00:42:04.460 it's a virtuous,

00:42:05.800 like all this stuff

00:42:06.460 is going on,

00:42:07.640 it's not like a ladder,

00:42:09.460 like you do this,

00:42:10.240 this,

00:42:10.480 this,

00:42:10.700 it's going on all at once.

00:42:12.180 you know,

00:42:12.640 you might be doing

00:42:13.220 this elicitation

00:42:13.840 and then you're going

00:42:14.240 to go back

00:42:14.680 to pretexting

00:42:15.480 and then you're going

00:42:15.800 to go back

00:42:16.160 to rapport building

00:42:17.620 and then go back

00:42:18.220 to influencing the,

00:42:19.700 and so you kind of

00:42:20.640 have to see this

00:42:21.080 as sort of like

00:42:21.520 a fluid interact,

00:42:22.820 dynamic interaction

00:42:23.820 and that elicitation

00:42:25.040 can help you,

00:42:26.760 one,

00:42:26.880 develop more rapport

00:42:27.760 and two,

00:42:29.040 figure out what you,

00:42:29.900 what you can do

00:42:30.800 or say to help

00:42:31.820 be more influential.

00:42:33.360 Exactly right.

00:42:34.300 I love the way

00:42:34.980 you put that,

00:42:35.520 very fluid

00:42:36.040 because you may have

00:42:37.380 to revisit your pretext

00:42:38.580 to make sure

00:42:39.040 you're staying true to it

00:42:40.060 and when I hit,

00:42:42.080 you know,

00:42:42.400 tier one rapport

00:42:43.520 because elicitation's going

00:42:45.400 so well,

00:42:45.860 I might want to take that

00:42:46.680 to the next tier of rapport.

00:42:48.460 And a point you make

00:42:49.080 in the book,

00:42:49.820 and I think a lot of people

00:42:50.560 think this might be weird,

00:42:52.620 but it can be really useful

00:42:53.720 is when you're having

00:42:54.900 a conversation

00:42:55.600 or you're going to have

00:42:56.560 a conversation with somebody,

00:42:57.840 like take some time

00:42:58.860 before that conversation

00:42:59.820 and outline it.

00:43:01.380 You don't have to do

00:43:01.860 pencil and paper,

00:43:03.160 but you make this argument

00:43:05.280 that, you know,

00:43:05.800 before any big conversation

00:43:07.060 or even small conversation,

00:43:08.400 you should have a rough idea

00:43:10.020 of, okay,

00:43:10.640 what's the pretext?

00:43:12.080 What's your goal?

00:43:13.140 How are you going to build

00:43:13.680 rapport with this person

00:43:14.600 based on their personality?

00:43:16.100 And that can help

00:43:16.920 the conversation

00:43:17.540 go a lot more smoothly.

00:43:19.600 I put this thing on.

00:43:20.640 So if you go to

00:43:21.120 humanhackingbook.com

00:43:22.460 and you sign up

00:43:23.140 for the resources page,

00:43:24.460 I actually put a worksheet

00:43:26.280 on there

00:43:26.880 on how you can do that

00:43:28.740 because I had so many people

00:43:30.200 asking questions,

00:43:30.980 like how do I outline

00:43:31.740 just a conversation?

00:43:33.280 And because I love

00:43:33.760 the way you put it.

00:43:34.360 You're not outlining every word.

00:43:35.540 You're not writing a script.

00:43:36.600 You're not sitting there saying,

00:43:37.580 okay, then say this.

00:43:38.660 That's impossible to do.

00:43:40.460 But what you do

00:43:41.100 is you can outline your goals,

00:43:42.640 your pretext,

00:43:43.240 how you're going to apply

00:43:43.980 these principles,

00:43:45.080 what methods you want to use.

00:43:46.700 And I have a worksheet on there

00:43:47.940 that can help you do that.

00:43:48.880 And I even give you

00:43:49.420 a sample worksheet

00:43:50.520 on one that I worked up

00:43:52.000 to have a hard conversation

00:43:53.540 with my daughter.

00:43:54.500 So you can work

00:43:56.040 these things out.

00:43:57.000 And if you have

00:43:57.680 that kind of a goal

00:43:58.540 set before a conversation,

00:43:59.940 there's a greater likelihood

00:44:01.640 that it's going to go

00:44:02.440 the way you want

00:44:03.080 and you're going to be able

00:44:03.880 to accomplish your goal

00:44:04.980 because you have that plan.

00:44:06.460 And I imagine as you do this,

00:44:08.500 you can start off

00:44:08.980 doing this very deliberately.

00:44:10.200 But as you do this stuff,

00:44:11.700 practice this stuff

00:44:12.580 over and over again,

00:44:13.320 you can start doing it

00:44:14.160 on the fly.

00:44:14.940 Like you won't need to do that.

00:44:16.380 Yeah, I don't fill out sheets now

00:44:18.060 for every time I do this

00:44:19.420 because I've been doing this

00:44:20.520 for so long.

00:44:21.540 When I have,

00:44:21.940 let's say,

00:44:22.220 an employee problem,

00:44:23.160 let's use that.

00:44:23.820 I'll go,

00:44:24.200 okay,

00:44:24.820 she'll laugh when she hears this.

00:44:25.840 I'll use Maxie as an example.

00:44:27.260 So I'll go and look at Maxie's

00:44:29.120 disk profile that I have

00:44:30.760 and I'll go,

00:44:31.200 okay,

00:44:31.440 she communicates this way.

00:44:33.300 I have to get her to do this.

00:44:35.160 What's my best way of doing that?

00:44:36.840 What's the principles

00:44:37.680 I should use?

00:44:38.980 What's the timing

00:44:39.760 I should approach her?

00:44:41.080 I know she gets nervous

00:44:42.180 if I say,

00:44:42.880 hey,

00:44:43.060 can we just have a conversation?

00:44:44.240 She always thinks

00:44:44.780 that's something bad.

00:44:45.960 So let me approach it this way.

00:44:47.960 And I make a little plan

00:44:48.940 in my head

00:44:49.380 of the best way

00:44:50.020 to bring this up.

00:44:51.520 And then I go

00:44:52.360 and execute that.

00:44:53.160 I don't have to write it all down

00:44:54.100 because I've been doing it

00:44:54.920 for so long.

00:44:56.160 It becomes second nature

00:44:57.120 and that will happen for anyone.

00:44:58.780 You do this a few times,

00:45:00.140 it becomes second nature

00:45:01.100 and you'll just,

00:45:01.840 you'll find you're doing it

00:45:03.000 without even thinking.

00:45:04.520 Well, Chris,

00:45:04.760 this has been a great conversation.

00:45:05.980 Where can people go

00:45:06.620 to learn more about the book

00:45:07.560 and the rest of your work?

00:45:08.860 So if they want more on the book,

00:45:10.320 they can go to

00:45:10.840 humanhackingbook.com.

00:45:12.660 All the areas you can buy

00:45:13.660 are there in addition

00:45:14.480 to that resources page,

00:45:15.860 which has so many details.

00:45:18.220 We have a conference coming up,

00:45:19.740 which is all about this.

00:45:20.880 It's a virtual conference,

00:45:22.080 humanhackingconference.com,

00:45:24.180 March 11 through 13,

00:45:25.540 which has some of the world's

00:45:27.140 greatest minds and speakers.

00:45:28.500 Robin Dreek will be there

00:45:29.700 and Joe Navarro,

00:45:31.100 some others that will be

00:45:31.900 doing some training

00:45:32.600 on how we can improve ourselves,

00:45:34.840 like hack ourselves.

00:45:36.300 Yeah, well, Chris Hadnagy,

00:45:37.100 thanks for your time.

00:45:37.620 It's been a pleasure.

00:45:38.500 Thank you.

00:45:39.320 My guest today was Chris Hadnagy.

00:45:40.660 He's the author of the book

00:45:41.480 Human Hacking.

00:45:42.400 It's available on Amazon.com

00:45:43.540 and bookstores everywhere.

00:45:44.580 You can find out more information

00:45:45.400 about the book

00:45:45.900 at his website,

00:45:46.840 humanhackingbook.com.

00:45:48.400 Also check out our show notes

00:45:49.300 at aom.is

00:45:50.240 slash humanhacking.

00:45:51.340 We can find links to resources

00:45:52.520 where you can delve deeper

00:45:53.260 into this topic.

00:45:53.920 Well, that wraps up

00:46:02.320 another edition

00:46:02.940 of the AOM Podcast.

00:46:04.120 Check out our website

00:46:04.760 at artofmanliness.com

00:46:05.800 where you can find

00:46:06.100 our podcast archives

00:46:07.180 as well as thousands of articles

00:46:08.220 written over the years

00:46:08.880 about pretty much

00:46:09.440 anything you think of.

00:46:10.480 And if you'd like to enjoy

00:46:11.100 ad-free episodes

00:46:11.880 of the AOM Podcast,

00:46:12.640 you can do so on Stitcher Premium.

00:46:14.140 Head over to stitcherpremium.com,

00:46:15.540 sign up,

00:46:15.980 use code manliness at checkout

00:46:17.280 for a free month trial.

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The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

Influence and Persuade Through Human Hacking

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