Launch a Million-Dollar Business This Weekend
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Summary
Noah Kagan is the founder of AppSumo, a software deal site, and the author of Million Dollar Weekend, a Surprisingly Simple Way to Launch a Seven-Figure Business in 48 Hours. In this episode, Noah and I discuss the two biggest obstacles that hold people back from starting a business, and how to overcome them. We then turn to the practicalities of coming up with a business idea, how to find your first customers, and what to do to keep growing from there.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here. Welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Have you always
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wanted to be an entrepreneur, but don't have an idea for a business? Or have you been sitting on
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a business idea for years, but have never gotten going with it? Well, after listening to this
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podcast, and by the end of this weekend, you can have a business started that can ultimately make
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you a million bucks. Here to walk you through the process of becoming a near overnight entrepreneur
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is Noah Kagan. Kagan is the founder of AppSumo, a software deal site, and a half a dozen other
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multi-million dollar businesses, and is the author of Million Dollar Weekend, a surprisingly
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simple way to launch a seven-figure business in 48 hours. Today on the show, Noah and I first
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discuss the two biggest obstacles that hold people back from starting a business and how
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to overcome them. We then turn to the practicalities of coming up with embedding a business idea,
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how to find your first customers, and how to keep growing from there. Along the way, Noah
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and I share insights into how we turned AppSumo and Art of Manliness, respectively, from side
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hustles into rewarding careers. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash
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All right, Noah Kagan, welcome back to the show.
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Yeah, so we had you on last time. That was back in 2017, and that was episode number 315, for
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those who want to check that out. Short story with you is you were one of the first employees
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at Facebook, but then you got fired before your stock vested. So you missed out on becoming
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a billionaire. So that was a bummer. But the upside was you started this journey of starting
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multiple seven-figure businesses. And I think you got a few eight-figure businesses in there
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as well. And then you've also been teaching other people how to start businesses. And some people
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have been making a lot of money with this process. And you got a new book out where you're sharing
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this process. It's called Million Dollar Weekend, the surprisingly simple way to launch a seven-figure
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business in 48 hours. And I should say at the start, you have a very narrow definition of what
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starting a business means. Because I think sometimes some people think starting a business means coming up
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with a business plan, filing an LLC, designing a web page. But how you're defining it for this book
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in the challenges, just get three paying customers in 48 hours. That's what starting a business is.
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And I love this idea of the time constraints. I think it can really help people finally get going
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on something. So where did you get this idea of starting a business in a weekend?
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There's a guy named Jake who I was talking to this morning. And it's pretty similar to you,
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and I'm guessing a lot of your listeners. And Jake has three kids. He's got a day job. He's got a
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wife. And he's always dreamed of having a business and at least having the opportunity to really live
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how he wants to live and be a good example for his kids. And he's had the same idea for 24 months,
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two years. And he was an early reader of Million Dollar Weekend. And I was able to get a chance to
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work with him. And in 48 hours, he changed his life. And the same thing happened for me with
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AppSumo.com, where I was really excited about how do I get software deals? I love software.
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And how do I get software deals at a discount for entrepreneurs? And what I noticed in a lot of the
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years before that, working for Zuckerberg and working in other businesses was just how much
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time we'll give ourselves to finally do something. But if we really constrain it, and we have to focus
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on really what matters, which is, can I solve a problem for someone that they'll be excited to
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give me money for? You're able to actually do that in a very short amount of time without a lot of
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money. Because most people like Jake, like you, Brett, like myself as well, we're busy. We don't have as
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much time. But most of us have a weekend available. So what's crazy is, you know, as a, I think a great
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example, AppSumo.com, I started it for around 50 bucks in a weekend. And this is what I think most
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people miss out on. They want to have a lot of money, or they would like to make millions of
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dollars, but they never make their first dollar. And so with one $12 sale very quickly from AppSumo,
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fast forward 14 years yesterday, I pulled up the numbers for the show, we did $248,163 in sales
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yesterday. But we started with just one sale. And that's something that when you give yourself a
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weekend, and you limit that time, and you're not trying to play business or set up social media or
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do, you know, fancy things, you don't you realize how much more you can actually do and get closer to
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where you want to go. So you mentioned this student you had who, you know, spent years putting off
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starting a business, he wanted to do this. And putting the timeframe, giving that goal of starting
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a business on a weekend, suddenly he's able to do it. What is holding people back from starting a
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business that want to start a business? Like, what have you found? Are there common excuses,
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fears that you see people have? Yeah, what I've noticed is that there's, there's so much,
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there's literally, there's Harvard MBA, there's billions of hours on YouTube, there's unlimited
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amounts of courses, then how is it that everyone who's got a day job, or is just coming out of
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college or 60 years old and wants to do a hobby that makes some money, doesn't have a business
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yet. And what I was able to recognize through myself and literally through tens of thousands
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of people was that there's two things that they're afraid of, and they don't recognize it as they're
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afraid of. But it's really the fear of starting. And it's the fear of asking. Those are the two things
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that have held everyone back from getting success in business, but really in life. And most people feel
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like they're not ready. It's like, oh man, I'm, I need to research more. I need to go over this
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business model more. I need to talk to more people about it. And when you actually get going, you know,
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a simple example, you have kids, it's like, hey, I'm going to teach my kid how to swim. All right,
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well, you have to be in the pool to swim, which is an obvious example. But people are like, no,
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I want to read more about how to swim. And I want to watch another YouTube video about how to swim,
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or I'll buy a book of it. It's like, no, let's get in the pool. And by getting in the pool is how
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you're going to start getting better at that. And one of the mindsets that helps people
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is to think of themselves as scientists. So just get going and start doing things.
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And by experimenting as a scientist, if it doesn't work, that's okay. At least you're doing it.
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And it'll lead you to a destination that you'll be surprised about, I would say.
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And the other one that holds people back is the fear of asking. You know, if you don't ask,
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you can't get. And I've interviewed a lot of billionaires on my YouTube channel over the years.
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And the number one thing they all say is sales, is what is the skill that's helped them become a
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billionaire? And what is a sale? A sale is an ask, right? And think about it. Like if you want
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to raise, if you want an employee, or if you want a customer, you just have to practice asking. And
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thank God it's a universal skill that you don't have to be tall or skinny or any physical or gender
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ability. It's universally available to practice and get better at both of those things of starting
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All right. So starting and asking are the biggest fears that hold people back from starting a
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business. And I imagine people come up with excuses to hide those fears, right? It's like,
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well, you know, I got to do, like you said, I got to do more research, or I need more capital so I
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can develop the website, or I don't know anything about marketing. I got to come up with a marketing
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plan. But like, really, there's probably just covering the fear of starting or the fear of just
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Well, let's thank you. And to me, what always seemed risky, right? And it's sad, I talked to
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someone yesterday. But it always seemed riskier for me to have a day job I didn't like, then at
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least take a chance on myself. And to be clear, that doesn't mean quit your day job. Jake has a
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great day job that he's keeping and enjoying. And Jake actually got five customers. He wants to do
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guys golf trips. That was his dream business. And we were able to get that going in a weekend.
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Now, I'd say even for like yourself, did you quit your job to start this show?
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I did not. So the Art of Manless started in 2008. It was just a blog, like a text,
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like go to artofmanless.com. And we still do that. We still go to artofmanless.com. We still put out
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new content there. But I started when I was in law school. And, you know, I started as a hobby,
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basically, something fun to do to as a creative outlet. And then it started making money. Even when
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it was making money, I still graduated from law school. And I got a job in legal research. I worked for
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Thomson Reuters. And graduated in 2009, took the job with Thomson Reuters. And then in 2010,
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that's when I finally quit my day job and went full time with AOM.
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I think that's such a great example for people to realize. So number one, the first thing you said,
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and this is the part I think people get backwards in business, it's fun. Find something fun. You're
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like, hey, I'm going to just write articles and explore manliness and parenting and things for guys.
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Like, how beautiful is that? And you didn't go risk your career. And especially a lot of people
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have day jobs. It's like, I don't want anyone to risk that. And then you stuck with it, which is
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the other real important part besides getting started is how do you find ways not to quit too
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soon? And what I found, you know, for me running a business, I'm still running AppSumo.com, which this
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year will do over $80 million. And that to me is insane because it started in a weekend. But I find that
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business is just the best way I've ever learned about myself and done things where I can feel good
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about myself. And importantly, I can actually even then create the life I want to live.
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Because, you know, I've been fired twice. I don't know if anybody's ever been fired out there. But
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getting fired made me realize like one person decided my future. And I at least wanted that
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option. I wanted the option where like, hey, even if I get fired, I have something else or not,
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maybe I can keep, you know, my day job and my side hustle. But you do have to get started on it so
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that, you know, 14 years ago, no, I'm thanking him. So I do wonder for which one listener today is going to
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thank themselves for listening to this show today, taking action and in five years be,
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you know, way further ahead than they ever imagined.
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Okay, so in your book, Million Dollar Weekend, you walk people through a process and how they can get a
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business going up and running, you get a paying customers within 48 hours on a weekend. And some
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of these businesses, you know, some people might make a million dollars with their business. But I
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think your bigger point with this book is that you can start a business that makes a decent chunk of
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change that can significantly improve your life. And what that number is, is going to vary from
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person to person. And you have this idea of the freedom number that can give people a concrete
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goal to shoot for. So what is a freedom number? And how can that help? It's one of those, I think
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it'd be a source of motivation to get going on your business.
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Well, I asked Jake, I called him this morning before the show. I was like, hey, Jake, I'm going to
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remain list. You know, what was it for you? He's like, I think about this future where I can do
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this as my dream. And it's like, wow, great. Everyone can think about what is their fantasy.
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And sometimes though, the fantasy is so far away that it doesn't seem attainable. And what I
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recognize, and this is something that I've seen be very impactful for myself, as well as I've talked
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to a lot of other successful entrepreneurs, which is having a small attainable monthly number where
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once they get their side hustle to that, then they can at least make the decision whether they want to
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quit their job or not. And it's the number that covers your basic necessities. So savings,
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food and entertainment, and then living expenses. And what people realize when they actually put
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this together, and you could do it right now, I'd encourage people again, we'll talk about now and
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how in a moment. But you realize like that number is a lot smaller than I thought. And then when you're
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actually doing the thing you want to do for a living, what I've noticed, you actually end up making
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a lot more money because frankly, you're enjoying it. And if you're not like, wow, I can live my life my
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own way. And I would say wealth and having money is really how little you can worry. Because you
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don't have to worry about some of these things. Like I have to worry about my job, I have to worry
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about my boss or about savings. And it's interesting when you start taking that that power for yourself.
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And in this freedom number, it can vary from person to person depending on their goals.
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Right? So some people, maybe they want to quit their job completely. And just all they do is rely
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on the income that comes from their side hustle or their business. Some people, maybe they like
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their day job. Right? Maybe they enjoy doing whatever they do. But they just want enough money
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to, I don't know, pay off some debt. Or they just want enough money to make a month where they can
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go out to eat with their family and not have to worry about, you know, the prices on the menu.
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And you can find out a concrete number for that. Like I want to make 1000 extra dollars a month
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so I can do X with my life. And it might not even be that much.
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It's way lower. So my number was 3000. And so I thought if I can make 3000 a month,
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I can quit this job, which it was fine, but I didn't really care for it. And I've always dreamed
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of being an entrepreneur and being able to live remotely. And it took a few months,
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but then with AppSumo, it eventually got there and I was able to quit and go do that.
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What amount were you at when you decided to quit and go all in and art of manliness?
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I don't remember. That was 13 years ago. I mean, I think it was enough where
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I could, like, I think my magic number, this is kind of generic, is enough where I could
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pay for health insurance for my family. At the time, that was my big concern. Like,
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can I afford health insurance? And I think my parents and my in-laws, they were kind of
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concerned about that, the being the entrepreneur things. Like, you know, I had the steady job
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where he had benefits, health insurance, a retirement plan, et cetera. And so for me,
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it's like, if I can pay for those things, then I'm good.
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Well, it was interesting, you know, two quick stories on that. Like, when I quit Intel,
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which was a horrible job, to go work at Facebook, my whole family was like, you're crazy. I can't
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believe you're going to go to this company, da-da-da. And Intel laid off 10,000 people
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a few weeks later after I moved over to Facebook. And it's just a good reality that, like, if you are
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not at least creating some of your own businesses or incomes, that you're not as much control over
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your destiny. And even a safe company like Intel is not safe. And the other thing I was mentioning
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earlier is I did talk to someone recently, and I felt sad that they felt that they had no ability
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to get started and change their future. They're like, yeah, I got this job, which this is very
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normal. I got a job, I've got a kid, I'm stuck here, I can't do anything about it. And when you
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start taking action, when you start maybe posting something online, or you start getting one person a
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customer in your business. And that could be, the amount of ways people are getting rich is
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unbelievable. And I've seen a lot of it on my YouTube channel, from people doing strawberries,
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energy traders, you know, there's real estate, there's a lot of different ways, plumbing.
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And, you know, I come from tech, and it's so exciting to realize that there's a lot out there.
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But you do have to get started on it today. And then you just like you and me and a lot of other
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people have done it, you do have to figure ways to help you stick with it, so that you can get to
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the Freedom Number and then beyond that. Well, yeah, talking about that idea of getting started
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today, you have this mantra, it's now, not how. What do you mean by that? And how can people start
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living that mantra? So when people, let's take a business example, you want to start a dog walking
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business. You know, most people think, well, how would I start a dog walking business? I probably need
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to get an LLC, then I'm going to buy a domain, then I need to find a developer, then I might need to get
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some funding, or I need someone who's technical. Oh, no, there's AI. So I need to have some AI now in there.
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And last year, I needed to put some crypto so people can pay for their dog walking in crypto.
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Right? So they're thinking about how to do it. But then if you actually just take the mantra of
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now, not how, what I'm encouraging, and this has been the number one breakthrough from the book,
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and we survey, we have a 1300 person beta team that's gone through the book. This is the number
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one breakthrough, which is, instead of giving themselves excuses and thinking about how,
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what can they do right now to move themselves forward? And so with the dog walking app,
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you can literally text, call, WhatsApp, DM, three people and say,
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hey, I'm thinking about dog walking app, can I walk your dog today?
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And then people are like, really? It's that easy? I'm like, yeah, that's the whole point.
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That's exactly how so many of literally billion dollar companies, just like Airbnb,
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Airbnb started by them sending an email to a conference that they were attending saying,
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we're renting out a couch, does anyone want to pay 150 bucks for it?
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Right away, right now. And so acting in the now is preventing you from letting, getting the fear
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ahead of you. Because you just get going, fear has to catch up. Just go and get started.
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And by doing that, by putting out that, like what you did, you got started, you put out the first blog
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Yeah. Okay. So have a bias towards action. Just quit thinking too much. Just start working. You'll
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figure things out as you go. And what's great about doing things now is you actually get
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information because you see what happens and that can actually help you refine and actually come up
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with your business plan after the fact. And it's more useful, I feel like, because it's concrete data.
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A hundred percent. I mean, it's like sitting on the sidelines trying to figure it out. But if you just
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go do it, you actually know it. Like take Jake, who we talked about earlier. You know, Jake's had the
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same idea about doing golf trips for guys for two years. But until he literally called someone right away
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when he did the Million Dollar Weekend Challenge, he just did it right now. And the person said,
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sure. And we can, you know, get into that a little bit later. But it was like, just because he got
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going, then guess what? That gave him confidence to be like, hmm, maybe I can ask another person
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right now. And then in a weekend, he had five paying customers for his golf trip, which he took two
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Yeah. Okay. So the next part is overcoming the fear of asking. And you talk about developing your
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asking muscle. How do you develop your asking muscle?
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Yeah, I was mentioning earlier, I got to interview John Paul DeGioia. He did Patron Tequila and Paul
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Mitchell Hair Care. And he said sales is the number one skill people can get better at. And that is
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what's helped him become a billionaire. And you start realizing that everything in life is
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communication. Everything in life is sales. Everything in life really ultimately is an ask.
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So you want a wife, you probably have to ask someone out. You want a relationship. You want an
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employee. You want a raise. And in business, if you want a customer, or if you want a viewer or a
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listener, you have to ask. And when you don't ask, you don't get. You just get whatever you're
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getting. And what I've noticed is that the fear of the ask is temporary. But the upset of these ask
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is really unlimited. People think of asking as a negative. You think of it as a positive, right?
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Okay, maybe this rejection is leading me to somewhere positive. It's leading me to learning. It's leading
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me to some outcome that I can get to. Whereas most times people never ask at all. Or if they ask once,
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they get rejected and they stop. And you just start realizing that if you can do that in light,
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silly ways, then when you start doing it in ways that maybe matter more to you, and you've already
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practiced it as a skill, the success that you can have is amazing. So I always talk about the coffee
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challenge. And this has become, you know, I'd say worldwide famous, where it's a very simple,
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easy way to develop your ask muscle. And all you do is next time you buy coffee, or if you buy a taco,
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or if you're at a restaurant, you just ask for a 10% discount. And if you, a lot of times I'll say,
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why? If you want to make it really hard to say nothing. But if you want to say, hey, Noah Kagan,
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I'm following this 48 hour business challenge, a million dollar weekend, told me I need to do it.
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And then they're going to reject you. Most of the time, once in a while, you get a discount. And the
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point is not to get the discount. The point is to actually get the rejection. And let me just actually
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pull this up. There was a guy who just did it. I always ask the same question afterwards. I said,
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what'd you learn about yourself from the rejection? And here's, his name is Stetson. He just texted me
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Monday. He said, I overthink things. I ran through every scenario in my head before actually taking.
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And I'm actually good in these awkward situations until it comes time to ask for something. Then I
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get weird. And ultimately, he realized it didn't kill me. And that's the whole power of the coffee
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challenge, is that you do it in a kind of silly way. Whether you're a sales pro, then do it.
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Or whether you've never asked for anything, then do it. And if you can just commit to going and doing
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that, you start realizing, whoa, it's never as scary as it seems. And that's true for a lot of
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this business stuff. It should be fun, like you said with your post. And these things aren't as
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scary. But you do have to get started. Then you do have to ask people for things in business.
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Okay. So you got to overcome your fear of starting, overcome your fear of asking. That'll do a lot for you
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to actually get going with your business. But let's say someone's out there and they say,
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I really want to start a business, but I don't have any ideas. Or maybe they have an idea and
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they don't know if it's a good one. So how do people usually go wrong with coming up with business
00:20:09.000
ideas? For business ideas, the book literally starts with frequently made excuses. And the first one and
00:20:14.840
two is I have no ideas or I have too many ideas. So I'm going to give you three ideas in three minutes
00:20:19.120
in three ways. And then I'll give you even one more that people can do right now, not how.
00:20:24.240
So number one, solve your own problem. So break your day down into morning, afternoon, and night.
00:20:31.020
And just think what's bothering you or what could have been better. So for me, in my morning,
00:20:35.900
every morning now I'm looking at this painting that's been on my ground for two months.
00:20:38.820
And I'm just like, I've got other things going on. And I was like, oh, it's so annoying. Or for
00:20:45.040
lunch, my girlfriend and I are working and it'd be really nice to have food delivery.
00:20:50.100
And so it's like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Number two, look at your credit card bill. This is
00:20:54.580
a classic, I would say, but look at what you're spending money on or look at what you're
00:20:58.500
not spending as much money on. And those are both opportunities.
00:21:02.680
Most problems you're facing in your life are business opportunities for yourself and for someone else.
00:21:07.040
And lastly, look at what you're avoiding. So I was like looking at what's been on my to-do list for
00:21:11.720
a long time. Again, what you're not doing is something else that probably others aren't doing
00:21:15.220
too that are a business. And I'll give it a now, not how example of asking that people can do again
00:21:20.040
right now. Text a friend. Hey, I'm trying to come up with some of my business ideas. You know me.
00:21:25.360
What is the kind of business you think I could start and be good at? And just text someone right now.
00:21:29.880
And I think you'll be surprised by just, again, asking and doing it right in the now,
00:21:34.140
the results you're going to get. And most people, I don't think you can mess up ideas.
00:21:39.100
Right. You can only really mess up just not executing. There is stuff about making sure
00:21:43.440
it can be a million dollar business, but really by just executing it will lead you to get to that
00:21:48.880
place, will lead you to get to your freedom number and beyond. Right. You talk about customers want
00:21:53.340
solutions, not ideas. It's like look for solutions to problems. And that's how I started AOM,
00:21:57.900
the impetus behind Art of Manliness when it was just a blog before it was a podcast was I thought
00:22:05.440
men's magazine sucked back in 2007, 2008. So I said, I'm going to start the men's magazine
00:22:11.160
that I'd want to read. And I did. And I found out a lot of other men felt the same way that I felt.
00:22:19.340
Solve your own problems. Like if you could, if you only had to do one type of business,
00:22:23.060
just make sure you're the first customer. Absolutely. I hated paying full price for software.
00:22:26.540
I still do. Again, come back to things that at least you'd be excited because I've done
00:22:31.240
businesses that are opportunities like today, AI is what everyone's chasing. It's like not something
00:22:36.100
I'm personally that excited about, you know, on AppSumo, we have a lot of software deals
00:22:39.560
in AI and that's great. But for me, I'm just excited to promote the deals. So again, come back to the
00:22:44.960
problems where you're at least the first customer. And I think it makes it much, much easier to stick
00:22:49.480
with these businesses because it does take time for them to produce the compounded returns.
00:22:54.580
We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsor.
00:22:56.540
And now back to the show. Okay. How do you actually figure out if, so let's say you settled
00:23:07.500
on an idea or a solution. You settled on a solution to a problem you're going to solve.
00:23:11.860
How do you know if it's actually going to make money?
00:23:14.740
What you do need to do before we sell to customers, and this is something I was thinking
00:23:18.700
about yesterday. I was watching some Netflix with a girlfriend about Amasus. And I was like,
00:23:24.600
could you make it be a million dollar masseuse? And before you jump into, let's say you're excited
00:23:31.080
to do physical therapy. Okay. Well, how would it actually be a million dollar business? And so
00:23:35.280
you've got to make sure you're not running really, really fast in the wrong direction.
00:23:38.380
How many people, like how is the market trending in this area? So let's take AppSumo for instance,
00:23:44.160
or physical therapy. AppSumo and software 10 years ago when I started it, you could see that the graph
00:23:49.040
was trending up. And I was just in a great wave. And so just being mindful of that, same with physical
00:23:54.060
therapy. Is that trending up? You can go to Google Trends, look over five years, is it flat? Is it up or
00:23:58.280
down? Because what you're aiming for is markets that are going to get bigger and bigger and bigger,
00:24:02.040
and you just get a slice of it? As well, what does the business model look for therapy? So if you're
00:24:07.100
doing one-off massages at home at $140, like, cool, that's $140. But to make a million dollars,
00:24:15.060
what is that? Let me do the math. That's 7,000 massages. 7,142. That's going to take you a while.
00:24:22.920
Okay, well, if I did it that way, I probably need to change some things out. And so before you,
00:24:26.780
again, try to validate the business, making sure people want it at least three customers in 48 hours,
00:24:30.800
I would definitely recommend looking at what would it take to make a million dollars for yourself,
00:24:35.780
just to get an understanding of it. And again, all this stuff should be quick and fast,
00:24:39.980
and not as a distraction from actually focusing on the business and the problems you're solving.
00:24:44.520
Now, to your original thing, Brett, which was how do you validate it? There's three ways I'd tell
00:24:48.440
people to validate. One is pre-ordering. So that's asking, and this is the best way,
00:24:53.340
because it's the most active. And the best example of this is Elon Musk with Cybertruck or
00:24:59.180
Model 3. People deposited six years ago for Model 3 and for Cybertruck. Model 3 was 10 years from
00:25:06.700
when he delivered. And this is also the same with events. Every event you ever bought, you pre-order
00:25:10.900
it. You buy a ticket, you go to the event. And have they ever canceled events? Yes. And if you're
00:25:16.180
trying to get pre-orders for your idea, and no one wants it, awesome. You didn't build a website. You
00:25:20.740
didn't go to Alibaba or China to make the product. You didn't waste a lot of time to find out something
00:25:25.420
no one wanted. And then you could learn from that. And that's the beauty of this.
00:25:29.360
The other two methods that I think can be good, but aren't as direct, that's why I don't always
00:25:34.080
encourage them, is marketplaces. So when I started AppSumo.com, I posted it on Reddit. I said,
00:25:40.080
hey, there's this product called Imgur. I got a discount on it because I cold emailed the founder.
00:25:44.580
And there's a marketplace of people looking to spend money or that are excited about things.
00:25:48.700
And you could post it on there. You could post it on IndieHackers. You can post it on Etsy,
00:25:53.960
Nextdoor, wherever it is, Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, wherever it is worldwide,
00:25:57.180
places where people are raising their hand to spend money. And then lastly, to get customers,
00:26:01.440
you can try landing pages and ads. So that's been a common one people talk about, I would say,
00:26:05.640
but I think that's my least favorite. Actually, I know it's my least favorite. Because then you have
00:26:10.520
to learn about how to do a landing page. Then you have to set up an ad. Then you have to spend money.
00:26:14.480
Then you have to wait for results. And that is fine. I think that's okay. But again, you can do it a lot
00:26:20.020
quicker and cheaper. And that's what I've found to be more effective than having to wait, which happens
00:26:25.780
in some of these other two approaches. I was just thinking about some of the little businesses that
00:26:31.420
I've started throughout my life. I forgot I did this. And it was though I did the whole act
00:26:36.100
and now not how. And I validated it really quickly, didn't spend any money. And I used marketplaces,
00:26:43.780
kind of what we would call them primitive marketplaces. So when I was in college,
00:26:48.220
I lived in Mexico for a few years. So I could speak Spanish fluently. So when I got back and
00:26:53.140
I was in college, I offered tutoring services. And so I just created a crappy flyer for Spanish
00:26:59.700
tutoring service. I think I charged $25 an hour, like $20 an hour. This was 2005. So that was a lot of
00:27:05.540
money back then. And I just posted it on the bulletin board in the foreign language department
00:27:10.820
at University of Oklahoma. And within a week, I think I had five clients. I had five customers
00:27:17.700
who called me and said they wanted Spanish tutoring. So I was making, what was that? A hundred bucks a
00:27:22.800
week extra. That was pretty dope. When you're a broke college student, I was making a hundred and
00:27:27.040
it was only, I was only spending five hours a week. So that was a great, that was a success. I validated
00:27:31.920
that one really quickly. The other business idea I had when I was in, I think it was, I was in law
00:27:36.940
school. So this was 2005. And so this was a period where iPhones weren't really a thing yet. I don't
00:27:44.560
even think the iPhone was created in 2005, but people had iPods. And so people also had CD
00:27:51.340
collections that they accumulated for years. So I had the idea I would help people transfer their CD
00:27:58.060
collection to their new iPod. And so I created these flyers and I put them out everywhere. I didn't get
00:28:04.660
any calls on that one. So I gave up after a couple of weeks on that one. But I thought it was a cool
00:28:08.880
idea. I love it, man. Wow. That's awesome. You know, the most successful people I personally
00:28:15.280
admire and have seen have also tried the most things, right? And by doing it, you start recognizing,
00:28:20.500
okay, I'm doing this. This isn't working, but I'm learning something. And this isn't working,
00:28:24.000
but I'm learning something. And then for me, you know, same as you, I've tried, you know,
00:28:27.840
I had a ninja card.com website where I did discount cards for college students. And then I had
00:28:32.780
a blog called freecalls2.com, which was voice over IP phone calls on the internet.
00:28:38.160
And they may seem silly, right? And most businesses start as hobbies. And so it's good to start a
00:28:44.040
hobby and stick with this hobby. And then each of these things we learn from that have led us to
00:28:48.360
eventually, you know, I'm sure there's subtle pieces of all these projects that led you to where
00:28:53.020
our demandliness is. And same thing with me and getting to where AppSumo is today.
00:28:57.460
No, for sure. Okay. So validating. So what do you think, what's the most effective way? What's the
00:29:01.580
way you like to validate or find customers? Pre-ordering. Yeah. Just that. And that can be,
00:29:06.580
that's easy. Just texting people. You text three people. Here's this thing I'm going to offer.
00:29:11.840
It's, you know, $50. Can I send you my Venmo? And that's it.
00:29:17.020
So let me maybe provide some frameworks to make it even easier for people that are thinking like,
00:29:21.860
Hey, I've got it. Most people have an idea. Even my brother. I love my brother. He's a doctor.
00:29:25.760
He had, yes. I'll link my girlfriend this morning. He had this idea for ultra endurance powder. So
00:29:33.060
he's, he's a, he's a doctor and he created this powder for himself for when he went on long bike
00:29:37.240
rides. And again, it was, he just solved his own problem. And most people like, well, that's not a
00:29:40.700
business. It's like, actually, that's exactly what a business is. And what I'd recommend to him
00:29:46.000
is what I'd recommend for people out there is I call it listen, options, and transition. So how do you
00:29:52.260
actually communicate with people? And by the way, remember we talked about starting and asking now
00:29:56.480
it comes into play in a fun way where you can actually get paid for it. So for him, you can
00:30:00.540
text and stuff. I like calls and whatever's real time. Cause when you post on social media or you
00:30:05.920
post in the marketplace, you're kind of waiting. Now, when you're asking someone for some like,
00:30:10.080
you know, ultra endurance sports powder, you don't have to make it this big. Uh, will you buy from
00:30:16.080
me? Cause that's kind of, I don't know, that that's a little scary at times, especially if you're not
00:30:19.580
experienced, but you can call any of your friends up and ask for feedback. Like people ask for
00:30:24.300
feedback all the time. Hey, I'm working on a book. Hey, have you gone to that restaurant? Hey,
00:30:27.900
I got this idea. Hey, I'm want to do this to my room. What do you think? And so you call and listen.
00:30:33.520
So you call up a friend and say, Hey, I'm working on this business idea about powder. Do you,
00:30:38.740
and you call people by the way, so call people that you think would actually be interested in this.
00:30:43.360
So for my brother, it would be, who have you ever ridden bikes with? He's a huge cyclist.
00:30:47.120
Just make a list, call your dream 10 and put them on a list. And now let's go through people
00:30:51.420
you think would actually be customers for you. And a lot of times when people start businesses,
00:30:55.700
Brett, they try to start it outside of their zone of influence and it just makes it so much harder.
00:31:00.840
So what are skills that you're already good at and who do you already have access to?
00:31:05.260
And so make a list of them. And then when you call, say, Hey, I know you're a cyclist.
00:31:08.720
Are you ever going on long rides? Yeah. Oh. And when you're listening, really what you're trying to do
00:31:13.080
here is you're trying to elevate their problems if they actually have them. And if they have
00:31:17.760
problems, then great. We'll solve them next. If not, cool. It's not a problem for them.
00:31:21.880
So for, for my brother, it would be, Hey, are you ever tired after your rise? You're tired after
00:31:26.680
20, 30, 40, 50 miles of cycling. Oh yeah, I am. Then you create an option for them. Well,
00:31:31.480
I actually have a solution to the problem you said, and it's called ultra endurance powder.
00:31:35.140
I think he was calling it horse powder for himself. And then, yeah, you present some options
00:31:42.260
for these people. Hey, here's the powder. Is that something you'd be interested? What do you think?
00:31:46.160
And again, none of this, you should never have to convince someone. If you're convincing them,
00:31:50.300
you're selling them. And to me, that's aggressive versus asking and learning. And if it's something
00:31:55.140
they're interested in, then the last one is T. So it's L O T. Listen, option, transition. And the last
00:31:59.280
one, you just transition. It sounds like you want the powder. I'm going to be putting this together.
00:32:02.540
I'd love to get you as a beta customer. Is that something you could send me a Venmo, PayPal,
00:32:06.900
crypto cash check today for $10 or $20? And again, you know, in the process, you do need to follow
00:32:13.780
a little bit of how do you come up with your pricing, which is much quicker than people realize.
00:32:18.920
And you see if they'll actually pay you. And that's the truth. And people are always surprised
00:32:24.400
that people are excited to pay for that, pay for their problems. They're like, wow, this is actually
00:32:29.000
how it can start. And it's just so empowering. That's why I always share this story where,
00:32:33.880
yeah, my first sale was $12. This little hobby where I wanted my own deals on software could
00:32:38.440
then turn into where it is today, which is unbelievable. But I did get started and I found
00:32:42.720
something that people were excited. And it sounds like you too, you tried things that, yeah,
00:32:46.880
language tutoring, cool. And by the way, that language tutoring business could have turned
00:32:52.620
So when people try to, no, it's just language tutoring. No, that can be wherever you want
00:32:56.040
to take it. Same thing with, you know, my business with Absum. And same thing with my brother. Like
00:33:00.100
this horse powder business could turn into, you know, GNC or it could turn into some large,
00:33:06.780
Okay. So just following the advice we just talked about now, you can get a business where you get
00:33:11.640
paying customers within 48 hours. I think anyone could like, literally, I think people can do that
00:33:15.680
after they listen to this podcast. And they've validated a business by getting paid by three
00:33:20.440
different customers. That's the goal. How do you grow that business to where it's making more
00:33:29.780
Yeah. Just go to your contacts in your phone, right? If you're, if you're listening to this,
00:33:33.940
just go look at your contacts. Everyone has at least 150 guaranteed. And those are all potential
00:33:39.680
customers. And all those contacts have other potential customers. And those really are your first
00:33:44.220
customers. And people really make it way harder on themselves. And I'm like, you don't have to,
00:33:49.020
it should be easy. Now business, when we break it down in terms of how to scale a business,
00:33:54.420
it's only three W's. So what's the problem you're solving? That's the first W that people actually
00:33:59.680
care about and are excited to have you solve. Who is that person that wants it? And where are they?
00:34:05.060
That's it. And again, it doesn't have to be hard. And so what I always recommend, and this is
00:34:12.080
something that it's really tough for people, is whatever you did to get your first three,
00:34:16.480
just keep doing that exact same thing. So keep doing more of what's working. And then ask those
00:34:22.100
three for referrals. Because again, you know, people, oh, how do I do my ads? How do I do
00:34:26.940
affiliate? How do I do content creation? I don't even want to be on social media. Don't, don't do any
00:34:31.500
of it. You know, Jake, I don't know if he even has social media, the golf trips guy, but he does golf
00:34:36.540
with people. And so he asked those people to be his customers. And then he asked those people for
00:34:40.740
one person to come on the golf trip. And that is how we got going. And literally you can do more of
00:34:46.140
that to keep growing the business before you even try to do a bunch of other things. Now, if you are
00:34:52.020
saying, hey, I've literally maxed out everyone in my network, which no one ever has, I promise that.
00:34:57.540
What I do recommend is a growth machine. And so how you can approach a growth machine is you're going to
00:35:02.540
number one, do things in public. Because what I found is that by just putting myself out there
00:35:06.980
for the past 24 years, it's just been an awesome way to meet people like yourself, Brett. It's just
00:35:11.740
been fun. And again, whether you want to have a big business now or later, having yourself in public,
00:35:18.380
having emails, so you can actually communicate with your audience is insurance. So if one day your
00:35:23.920
boss fires you, or one day you're like, actually, I have a thing I've been building. I want to
00:35:27.980
communicate with people. Having an email list that you can contact people. I use SendFox, but there's
00:35:31.840
MailChimp, ConvertKit. There's a lot of options today. Creating content being public and having
00:35:36.600
that audience communication, I would say is essential. Now in terms of the growth machine
00:35:40.260
for scale, the way I've always done it at AppSumo, at Mint, at my YouTube channel, even what I'm doing
00:35:46.080
in the book, is you work backwards from a goal of what you want to accomplish. And you make a list of
00:35:51.060
all the different ways you think, where are these customers that I'm looking for? Are they on Facebook
00:35:56.360
ads? Are they in social media? Is it wholesale? And I make a list and I prioritize it based on the
00:36:02.320
impact I think I can have in terms of sales expected from those channels. And then I literally
00:36:07.040
take the top three and I experiment with that for a month, going back to experiments. And I see if any
00:36:11.460
of those three, what I expected and how they actually performed. And then I just double down
00:36:16.240
the one that works. And people are like, no, it's got to be harder. It's like, literally,
00:36:20.440
that's AppSumo today. Millions of buyers a month, $80 million plus. And it's the same formula that's
00:36:26.360
other businesses. Okay. So yeah, your channel, it could be LinkedIn. Imagine business-oriented,
00:36:34.200
managerial type. If you're doing business-to-business type business, that's where you probably want to
00:36:38.540
be. You could do Instagram. And all these channels have their pros and cons. And you have to find the
00:36:44.500
one that you like doing. You settled on YouTube. That's what you like to do.
00:36:49.520
Yeah. I mean, you ultimately have to promote the business where your customers are. And your best
00:36:53.460
marketing is happy customers. So that's, again, I think people want a lot of, you know, silver
00:36:59.800
bullet magic. Like, oh, okay, but there's a Facebook ad thing that I can do. And it's like,
00:37:04.060
yes, that can work. But one, just because it works for one company doesn't mean it's going to work for
00:37:08.720
another. And if you just do more of the basics, like almost every entrepreneur I meet, that's their
00:37:14.020
business isn't growing. I said, what did you do to get your business growing? I used to message people
00:37:18.220
one by one. How often are you doing that today? I'm not doing it. Just go back and do that. And
00:37:23.180
that is nine times out of 10, I think that I've, I've seen hold people back from scaling their
00:37:27.260
business. And yes, there are other things that you can experiment with and you can get those things,
00:37:32.060
but do more of what already was working. And then the way the value that we call it AppSumo is called
00:37:36.760
test and invest. So test these other new channels. And I can give you an example. We tested last year,
00:37:42.360
we're sponsoring video creators to promote AppSumo and make content about software for
00:37:47.980
entrepreneurs. And we just tested it. We paid someone a thousand bucks. I don't remember even
00:37:52.220
who the first person was. And the return, meaning the amount of people that came in and spent money
00:37:57.300
on AppSumo from that was we made our money back the same week. And so fast forward a year later,
00:38:03.760
we tested that. It worked. Now there's five people recruiting and building out our video ambassador
00:38:08.960
program. But you can look at it on Facebook ads. Our Facebook ads don't make us almost any money.
00:38:15.760
And that's okay too. But again, do the basics really well. Make sure your customers are happy,
00:38:20.880
get referrals from your customers, and then try out other platforms. And what works for someone,
00:38:24.420
maybe it's LinkedIn. LinkedIn doesn't do much for me. Instagram, TikTok doesn't do much for me.
00:38:28.760
But I found that YouTube and my email list is really my bread and butter. So I focus on that for
00:38:33.320
my personal. Yeah. And in this process, you're big on collecting emails because you own
00:38:38.760
your emails as opposed to having your whole platform be on social media where you're at
00:38:45.700
the mercy of some corporation's algorithm. I mean, they can change it and then your reach goes down.
00:38:51.160
So email is stable. It's direct. You can control it. And that's going to be your biggest sales funnel
00:38:56.760
probably. Let me share a crazy story literally from last week, Brett. It was sad, but also a great
00:39:03.500
reminder. So I have a million subs on YouTube and we were able to do it in two years.
00:39:08.340
And I posted a video and most of my videos get a million views. And we posted a video that has,
00:39:15.360
as of today, I have to pull it up, but I think it's at 10,000 views.
00:39:22.040
Right. Which is, uh, that's not good. Uh, let me see this video.
00:39:26.380
12,066. So think about that. I've, you know, spent two years, a lot of content, a lot of people,
00:39:35.060
most videos to get a million. And that's a great reminder that I'm not in control of communication
00:39:40.560
with my audience. YouTube is, and I have to create a content that serves them and not me or my
00:39:46.280
customers. And email is the best direct line to your audience and ideally audience that can become
00:39:51.860
customers. AppSumo does about half of our $80 million a year via email. So for people that
00:39:58.020
are out there, they're like, Oh crap. Yeah. Maybe that's, maybe I'm doing lawn care. I should have
00:40:01.640
an email. Maybe I'm an accountant or tax person. I should do email. Maybe I'm thinking of doing a
00:40:06.440
business in the future. Yes, you should get an email list. And so let me just give people,
00:40:10.400
you know, if you want to get a hundred subscribers, let me just give you a few things that you can do
00:40:14.280
right now. So number one, you don't even need an email service. You can just use Gmail.
00:40:19.000
Now that's literally how I started AppSumo. I just literally, I use my Gmail to send people
00:40:23.460
their codes for the software. And so you don't have to even use a service. Number two, you need
00:40:30.600
to make something that people actually want to receive. Like, I don't know about you, Brett,
00:40:33.460
but when my girlfriend emails me, I always open it. And so if you're going to have an email list,
00:40:40.340
you need to have something that people are actually excited, you know, like your content. It's been
00:40:48.220
Yeah. And so you're creating high quality content. So think about what is it? And doesn't
00:40:52.420
need to be every day or every week. It could be monthly that people are excited to read.
00:40:56.780
So is the thing you're sending actually good? It all comes back to that. Like you make a good
00:41:00.440
product. All the marketing is easy. And most people think they have marketing problems when
00:41:04.440
they really have business problems. Meaning you have to make stuff that people are excited about.
00:41:09.020
The three ways that you can grow your email list. Number one, here's a stupid way. Just update
00:41:14.220
your email signature. If you're emailing people, just put your email signature in there.
00:41:19.640
Second way, we talked about the dream 10, which if you open your contacts in your phone,
00:41:23.480
you go on LinkedIn, you go on Instagram, you go on WhatsApp, you go wherever. Just go look who are
00:41:28.860
people that you think should be hearing about you. Let me give you a recent example. I wanted to prove
00:41:33.940
million dollar weekend. So I asked the audience what business I should start. And I didn't want to use
00:41:38.540
my email list or any social media. That was part of the challenge. And they said I should start a
00:41:43.460
software company. I was like, okay, I'm pretty comfortable with that. And so one of the problems
00:41:48.200
I noticed with my credit card bill was DocuSign. You ever use DocuSign or HelloSign?
00:41:54.380
I just hate paying for it because I don't use it very often and I only need to use it once in a while.
00:41:58.800
So I was like, huh, that's kind of an interesting one. So I went through the whole process and what I did
00:42:04.260
to find my dream 10 was I looked, I went to my Gmail and I searched anyone who in the past five
00:42:09.680
years who emailed me a DocuSign. I just looked who's already, who's an ideal person because they're
00:42:15.440
using a competitor. And if I hate it, maybe they do too. And I put that on a list and I contacted
00:42:20.680
them. And that's how I was able to get about 3000 sales in 48 hours. And then I'd say the last one,
00:42:26.860
this was, this was a good reminder. It's called lead magnets. And again, I think people make this
00:42:30.840
stuff so ominous and complicated. Those two things we said about your dream 10 or dream 100 and your
00:42:35.900
update your email signature, that alone can get you a hundred subscribers. What a lead magnet is,
00:42:40.320
and I'll just give you an example. I posted on LinkedIn, hey, here's how I do my planning for my
00:42:45.920
goal setting for 2024. If you're interested in my goal planning, go to noakagan.com, join the newsletter
00:42:51.060
and I'll send it out to you. And all I did was then share via my newsletter, how I do my yearly goal
00:42:56.520
setting. That's it. It doesn't have to be something super complicated. And that worked really, really
00:43:01.660
well. I think we doubled the amount of people that normally join just by having something that they
00:43:05.260
were excited to get from my newsletter, not, you know, some crappy PDF that's like, here's five ways
00:43:10.200
to have a better life. That was my first lead magnet when I started AOM in 2008. It was a PDF. It was
00:43:17.400
a guide to being a gentleman. And it was so crappily done. I had no design skills and I was just
00:43:24.680
making this thing in Microsoft paint. It was bad, but it worked.
00:43:28.940
I'm sure at the time though, it was pretty good. How did it work?
00:43:30.600
Yeah, it worked well. I mean, I got a ton of email subscribers from it and I also used to get RSS
00:43:35.100
subscribers because RSS was a thing. So I would include a link in the RSS footer feed.
00:43:51.840
Oh, do you really? Wow. I use Pocket mostly for the articles.
00:43:54.680
Yeah, I like Pocket. Pockets hit or miss. Some of it's good. Some of it's bad. There's
00:44:00.060
like certain people like to follow regularly and get their updates. So I use Feedly for
00:44:04.280
that. But yeah, Art of Manly still has an RSS feed, guys. I'm going to sell it. It's
00:44:10.620
great. It's full text too. It's not the like click here to read the whole thing. You can
00:44:17.580
You know, one of the things we kind of said before the show got going is like, you know,
00:44:21.880
you get started, you get asking, you stick with it. Did you ever imagine it would be
00:44:28.180
No, I didn't. I did not. I mean, when I started AO Women, I had the idea for it. I was excited
00:44:35.140
about it. It's like, this could be something. Like I think it could be something, but I didn't
00:44:38.600
think it would be, I had no idea it would be a podcast. I had no idea that it would be
00:44:42.980
like The Strenuous Life. I had no idea I would write books based off of it. I had no idea
00:44:47.860
I'd be working with my wife full time from our house. No, no clue. We just did the next best
00:44:55.240
thing. Just took action after action after action and just did it for a really long time.
00:45:02.360
That's, yeah, that's it. And it's possible. I think that's one of the things people need
00:45:06.840
to believe. I never, the life I'm getting to live. I don't know if you would have told
00:45:10.460
me even a few years ago, I would be able to live it. And it does take, yeah, it takes
00:45:14.860
time. You know, one getting started, you might start realizing, holy, it could be possible.
00:45:18.980
And it does take, you know, even writing down like, Hey, what could happen in the next
00:45:22.400
few years? Cool. All right. Let me start today. And what do you think helped you stick with
00:45:31.280
I think, well, I think both my wife and I have a personality that's sort of a stick to
00:45:35.960
it disposition. We're workhorses. Like we'll just keep going and going and going. And I
00:45:40.780
think it also helps that we enjoy it. You know, I enjoyed it at the start 16 years ago
00:45:44.260
and you know, I'm still enjoying it today. But I mean, I think, you know, in every job, even
00:45:48.520
if you have a dream job, there's going to be things that you don't enjoy. Like, yeah,
00:45:53.260
it's a job. Right. And Kate and I, we still hit walls. Occasionally we get burned out, but
00:45:59.100
then, you know, we just keep going and then we get back to enjoying it again. So I think
00:46:04.060
the fact that we love the work we do goes a long way, but then also experience, I mean,
00:46:08.580
you have to like just experiencing those bits of success on the regular helps out a lot,
00:46:14.860
you know, setting goals, achieving them that helps out a lot. And then just getting the feedback
00:46:19.880
that we've gotten over the years from our readers and listeners saying how an article helped them
00:46:25.580
with, you know, it could be like a small thing in their life or some people I've, you know, we've
00:46:29.020
gotten like wedding invitations from dudes who were like, I read this article about how I need to
00:46:34.660
stop hanging out with women and start dating them. And I started asking women on dates and now I'm
00:46:40.720
getting married. Here's an invite. I'm like, wow, that's, that's crazy. Um, and what's crazy
00:46:44.760
about doing it for this long, it's been really rewarding is we've been doing it long enough where
00:46:50.320
there are guys who started reading us when they were like 16, they're now 32 years old and they've
00:46:57.980
got kids, they're married, they've got a job. And we get letters from these guys saying, yeah,
00:47:03.680
I started reading you when I was 16. And like, you had content that helped me with like different
00:47:07.300
stages of my development into adulthood. Like you helped me learn how to tie a tie for a dance.
00:47:14.020
You learned, helped me, you know, how to ask a woman out on a date and you helped me with
00:47:18.320
parenting advice. And that's, that's really super rewarding. That is awesome. That was really nice to
00:47:25.580
hear. I was like, tell me more of these stories. Well, no, this has been a great conversation. I think
00:47:29.560
the big takeaway is you want people after they listen to this episode to go buy, buy the book. I'm sure
00:47:34.880
you're going to make the ask here in a bit. That's fine. But also you want people to go out if they've
00:47:40.300
had that idea for a business this weekend, make it happen. You can make it happen. Just start now
00:47:46.920
and get over the fear of asking and then follow this process. I wasn't going to ask. No, I was
00:47:53.220
going to actually give you the opportunity to ask here in a bit because I always ask, where can you
00:47:57.360
learn more about your book and your work? Okay. So where can people go to learn more about the book
00:48:01.460
and your work? And is there someplace people can reach out to you to report whether they
00:48:06.580
started a business this weekend? Like, can they tweet at you? What, what, how do you like that?
00:48:10.340
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, go to milliondollarweekend.com and what I'm excited about, I'm excited for people
00:48:17.880
to get the book. I want to see them sending me a photo. You can add Noah Kagan on all social media.
00:48:22.620
And I want to see who's going to change their life in 48 hours. And people have 52 weekends to do it.
00:48:27.620
They have 52 chances. And I'm very excited because I'm already seeing, I saw this guy, Jake. There's
00:48:32.700
this other woman, Mackenzie, who has a greeting card business. There's this guy, Pat. He's actually
00:48:36.820
featured on the back of the book. He emailed me two weeks ago. He quit his job. And when people
00:48:41.260
realize that if they can get started today, they're going to enjoy the rewards in a little bit of time
00:48:45.340
and that they can actually do it is exciting for me. And this book in business, I would say for
00:48:50.160
everyone is, is the realization of who they can actually be and realizing it's not as far away as they
00:48:54.840
thought. All right. So what was the web address again? MillionDollarWeekend.com.
00:48:58.920
MillionDollarWeekend.com. Well, Noah Kagan, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:49:02.460
It's great. Great to hear your voice again, man. I missed you. And maybe we'll do it in five years
00:49:05.900
instead of seven. Yeah, we'll make that happen. My guest name is Noah Kagan. He's the author of the
00:49:10.880
book Million Dollar Weekend. It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find
00:49:14.680
more information about his work in the book at his website, NoahKagan.com. Also check out our show
00:49:19.520
notes at aom.is slash milliondollarweekend. We find links to resources. We delve deeper into this topic.
00:49:54.840
Family member, do you think we get something out of it? As always, thank you for the continued
00:49:58.400
support. Until next time, it's Brett McKay, reminding you to listen to AOM Podcast, but put