The Art of Manliness - Leadership Lessons From Military Mentors

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.240 When Daniel Zia Joseph decided to join the Army at the unusually late age of 32,

00:00:16.660 he solicited advice from his buddies who had served in the military

00:00:19.440 on how to succeed in the experience and become a good officer and leader.

00:00:23.460 Today, he passes on these leadership lessons to us.

00:00:26.620 Dan is the author of Backpack to Rucksack,

00:00:28.520 Insight into Leadership and Resilience from Military Experts.

00:00:32.180 And he first shares why he decided to join the Army at an older age

00:00:35.180 and what he would tell other guys who keep thinking about doing the same thing.

00:00:39.140 We talk about how he prepared himself to be a leader

00:00:41.240 and how getting his master's in organizational psychology helped deepen his development.

00:00:45.540 We then discuss the lessons his military mentors imparted to him,

00:00:49.140 including why you should pursue attrition,

00:00:51.440 the importance of command climate,

00:00:53.200 using psychological jujitsu,

00:00:54.920 and the difference between garrison and field leadership.

00:00:57.620 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awimp.is

00:01:01.140 slash militarymentors.

00:01:02.540 All right, Dan Joseph, welcome to the show.

00:01:23.160 Hey, glad to be here.

00:01:24.460 Thanks for having me.

00:01:25.380 So you got a new book out called Backpack to Rucksack,

00:01:28.140 where you share insights on leadership and resilience that you learned in the military

00:01:32.560 and in your work in organizational psychology.

00:01:35.780 But before we talk about the book,

00:01:37.360 let's talk about your experience joining the Army,

00:01:39.820 because you did so at the age of 32,

00:01:43.300 which is unusually late in life.

00:01:45.080 A lot of guys aren't joining the Army at age 32.

00:01:47.360 So what's the age limit for joining the Army?

00:01:49.380 Were you pretty close to the upper end?

00:01:50.900 Yeah, so as a commissioned officer,

00:01:53.160 I needed to commission by the age of 33,

00:01:56.600 and I signed up at 32.

00:01:58.580 So the recruiter definitely had my back against the wall saying,

00:02:01.660 you either sign the contract or you're going to miss your window.

00:02:03.840 So I jumped in.

00:02:05.160 But yep, definitely pushed against that age limit.

00:02:07.780 For the Army, each branch has a different age limit,

00:02:10.120 but I tell people to, you know,

00:02:12.720 I receive a lot of questions from people asking if they're too old.

00:02:15.540 And I tell them always ask a recruiter

00:02:18.500 because those numbers do change depending on the needs

00:02:20.620 of the government, the military, what branches need.

00:02:24.000 So let's talk about your life before you joined.

00:02:25.600 And like, then what led you to signing up at age 32?

00:02:28.180 So what was going on before age 32?

00:02:30.200 So you're 18.

00:02:31.000 That's when most guys,

00:02:31.960 when they're thinking about joining the Army,

00:02:33.060 they join right out of high school or maybe in college.

00:02:36.000 What were you doing?

00:02:37.080 And then talk about what was going on

00:02:39.040 right before you joined at age 32.

00:02:42.100 Yeah, so I have a pretty unique story, I guess, to myself.

00:02:46.100 I worked in biotech for quite a while here in San Diego

00:02:49.840 and a lot of genetic research companies out here.

00:02:53.080 I've worked with companies that were genetically modifying

00:02:56.680 specific organisms to create industry,

00:03:00.460 new industry products, some wild stuff.

00:03:02.820 And it led into a job involving machine learning algorithms

00:03:06.780 and borderline AI back then, a few years back,

00:03:11.200 to basically enhance genetic codes to optimize genes

00:03:16.280 and snip out disease markers from humans, from animals.

00:03:22.140 A lot of really cool stuff happening.

00:03:23.820 But I was essentially working initially in the laboratory

00:03:27.760 and then I moved towards business development.

00:03:30.480 And what really pushed me to join the military

00:03:33.400 was when ISIS was actually attacking civilians

00:03:37.360 and the populace in Iraq.

00:03:38.980 My family is from there.

00:03:42.100 My parents escaped barely with their lives back in the 70s.

00:03:46.860 And I had a lot of friends that I made here in San Diego

00:03:49.480 who were on the SEAL teams,

00:03:51.620 different branches who were deploying to go fight those guys.

00:03:56.100 And as I was over here working in a world

00:03:59.460 where we were literally using computer software

00:04:02.520 to design genetic code and enhance the human species

00:04:06.000 in a way that's just absolutely mind-blowing.

00:04:09.620 My friends were in this primal fight in a war zone

00:04:13.440 that they had nothing to do with.

00:04:15.740 They were entering into that fight selflessly to go save people.

00:04:20.580 And they came back with these stories that were just,

00:04:23.240 they were literally fighting in the villages my parents grew up in.

00:04:26.260 And I felt this deep desire to put on a uniform

00:04:32.100 and contribute in any way possible.

00:04:34.480 I just felt it was my duty because America saved my family.

00:04:39.680 They gave us a place of refuge.

00:04:41.380 And that just really weighed heavy on me.

00:04:43.940 So as I'm working on my company,

00:04:46.300 I eventually started my own company

00:04:48.000 and was making pretty good money.

00:04:49.800 But then my friends would come back from these deployments

00:04:52.320 telling me about some of the stuff they got into.

00:04:54.920 And I just felt so compelled to let go of what I had here

00:05:00.040 and to join the military just to be able to tell myself

00:05:03.360 before I'm on my deathbed someday, like, hey, I did it.

00:05:08.880 And you also talk about in that book during that time

00:05:10.360 when you were working, you're working hard, making good money.

00:05:12.680 There's also a hint of you felt kind of restless.

00:05:16.120 There was drinking and you're hanging around

00:05:18.560 the wrong kind of crowd.

00:05:19.480 And you just felt like you weren't going anywhere either.

00:05:21.620 Yeah, so I, you know, especially if you're the child of,

00:05:26.880 say, immigrants and you grew up in the United States.

00:05:28.920 So, you know, I was born in the U.S.

00:05:30.600 My parents, like I said, they left Iraq in the 70s.

00:05:33.940 I was really trying to discover myself in a way here that,

00:05:39.680 yeah, it involved the wrong crowd for sure.

00:05:42.400 I got involved into what I thought was sort of popular behaviors,

00:05:46.880 a lot of drinking, and then that quickly moved into a crowd

00:05:51.220 that, you know, used drugs, partied pretty hard,

00:05:55.860 you know, play hard, work hard.

00:05:57.600 And I got caught up in a lifestyle where it was just,

00:06:01.080 it was driven sort of by, you know,

00:06:04.920 how cool people thought you were based on this persona.

00:06:08.280 And it felt, it was extremely superficial,

00:06:10.880 very high quantity, low quality with the relationships.

00:06:14.000 I made some good friends,

00:06:15.740 but it definitely didn't require discipline.

00:06:18.540 It just required showing up, getting drunk,

00:06:21.000 and trying to have as much fun as possible.

00:06:23.700 But when I started meeting friends in the military,

00:06:26.820 I noticed a stark contrast between their behaviors,

00:06:30.760 their level of discipline, their presence,

00:06:33.380 their physicality, how they approached life.

00:06:35.400 And I was drawn to their mindset.

00:06:39.260 They were super sharp, super driven,

00:06:41.520 and they definitely had goals far beyond,

00:06:44.380 you know, what I was doing,

00:06:46.000 which was just basically going from hangover to hangover.

00:06:48.460 And these guys were getting after it,

00:06:50.980 training all the time.

00:06:52.320 And it was really inspiring to me.

00:06:54.620 Okay, so you joined up at age 32.

00:06:56.440 Did you face any challenges joining at that age?

00:07:00.280 Honestly, no, I didn't.

00:07:02.400 You know, I have a lot of friends

00:07:03.640 who were in the military at the time.

00:07:06.020 And their number one piece of advice to me

00:07:08.920 was stay physically fit.

00:07:10.540 Because regardless of age,

00:07:12.680 when you show up, your body is,

00:07:15.000 it's your resume to the guys around you,

00:07:18.140 especially as an officer.

00:07:20.080 You know, people want to be led by somebody

00:07:21.860 who inspires them.

00:07:23.180 And when you show up in good shape physically,

00:07:25.460 and you can do the rucks,

00:07:26.680 you can do the runs, pull-ups, push-ups,

00:07:29.320 you know, everything that they test you in,

00:07:31.660 the guys are going to follow you.

00:07:32.880 They're going to want to be a part of your group.

00:07:36.140 And age was never an issue for me.

00:07:38.700 The biggest thing I was told

00:07:39.860 was to never use my age as a way

00:07:42.440 to talk down to anybody or be condescending.

00:07:45.700 Basically, if people wanted to tap

00:07:48.320 into whatever life wisdom I had,

00:07:50.500 then I would allow them to ask for that.

00:07:53.040 But I was definitely schooled on,

00:07:56.160 hey, just show up, keep your mouth shut,

00:07:57.900 be present, and just stay physically driven.

00:08:00.640 And that's going to motivate people.

00:08:02.480 So what did you end up doing in the Army?

00:08:04.500 I was a combat engineer.

00:08:06.100 So I was a platoon leader for 19 months.

00:08:09.500 It was a sapper platoon is what we call it.

00:08:11.620 And essentially, we would simulate combat exercises

00:08:14.620 with minefields and wire obstacles, tank ditches,

00:08:18.720 basically, you know, simulating

00:08:21.380 what World War III may look like.

00:08:24.020 So like, what advice would you give to older guys

00:08:26.280 who, you know, they keep thinking about,

00:08:28.260 you know, should I join the military?

00:08:29.420 What should I do? Am I too old?

00:08:30.940 What advice do you have for them?

00:08:31.900 Would you just recommend to just go for it?

00:08:34.240 Yeah, I mean, I definitely tell people

00:08:35.700 if you're thinking about it,

00:08:36.920 at least start training for it.

00:08:38.520 Because here's the thing,

00:08:39.860 even if you don't make it into the military,

00:08:41.700 the fact that you got up and trained yourself

00:08:44.080 and started running and started doing,

00:08:46.380 you know, the dieting and all of that,

00:08:48.240 that's required to just be at your top shape,

00:08:51.060 it will progress you

00:08:52.460 to becoming a better version of yourself.

00:08:54.600 So I don't see any downfall to pursuing that.

00:08:57.700 There's a lot of people that reach out to me saying,

00:09:00.040 hey, I don't know if I'm going to get cleared

00:09:01.260 for some medical things

00:09:02.660 or maybe some past, you know, criminal activity

00:09:05.200 or whatever it is that happened in their life.

00:09:07.000 And I say, you know, don't close the door on it.

00:09:10.120 There might be a recruiter out there

00:09:11.300 who's going to find a waiver

00:09:12.320 for whatever it is you're dealing with.

00:09:13.940 And don't ever let age

00:09:16.680 or any sort of negative self-thought hold you back.

00:09:20.300 Don't limit yourself.

00:09:21.480 And it's amazing to see what people have,

00:09:23.540 I mean, I've talked to guys

00:09:24.380 who've lost over a hundred pounds

00:09:26.080 just training for a military gig.

00:09:28.140 That's, it's phenomenal.

00:09:31.180 All right, so that's the big thing.

00:09:32.320 If you're older, just stay in shape.

00:09:33.900 Like if you're fit, they're going to take you

00:09:35.600 even if you're at that age limit.

00:09:38.160 Absolutely, yeah.

00:09:38.940 Fitness is like the number one thing

00:09:40.580 because you just,

00:09:41.380 you have to be able to pass those fitness tests.

00:09:43.580 Yeah, I think what I heard is that

00:09:45.120 it's something like 70% of young people

00:09:48.340 wouldn't be able to qualify for military service.

00:09:51.160 I've heard that.

00:09:51.940 And a lot of that is because of obesity.

00:09:54.280 Like that's why they're having recruiting problems.

00:09:56.640 So how did joining the army change your life?

00:09:58.220 And like, what are you doing now?

00:10:00.060 Well, so I'm out now.

00:10:02.540 I was in for three and a half years.

00:10:04.580 I'm actually thinking about signing another contract.

00:10:07.220 I have a MEPS appointment coming up

00:10:09.360 to go in and get medically screened again.

00:10:11.120 But being in the military really changed my life

00:10:14.220 in ways that I never thought.

00:10:15.800 I definitely was close to the troops.

00:10:19.040 I loved being around them.

00:10:20.940 It taught me a lot about leadership.

00:10:22.940 It taught me a lot about how to relate to others

00:10:25.460 in an organization that's just constantly

00:10:28.140 under high stress, high op tempo,

00:10:30.940 just back-to-back training.

00:10:32.880 It really left a mark on me that I didn't expect.

00:10:35.840 So I don't know what to say.

00:10:38.420 I could talk a lot about that.

00:10:40.500 And also while you were in the military,

00:10:41.760 you got your, that's where the work

00:10:43.520 in organizational psychology came in, correct?

00:10:46.420 Yeah.

00:10:46.820 So the lockdowns impacted a lot of our training.

00:10:49.860 And during the downtime, I thought to myself,

00:10:51.680 what can I do to optimize?

00:10:54.060 I didn't want to just survive the lockdowns.

00:10:56.000 I really wanted to thrive during the lockdown.

00:10:57.980 So I thought, well, work out three times a day,

00:11:01.520 don't drink a drop of alcohol,

00:11:03.480 and get a master's degree.

00:11:04.820 And I lived by that.

00:11:06.720 That was my day in and day out.

00:11:08.100 And I wanted to come out of the lockdowns

00:11:10.600 better than I ever was.

00:11:13.060 And getting the master's was eye-opening to me.

00:11:15.940 Because as I'm leading these soldiers,

00:11:17.860 as I'm seeing the impact of mental health,

00:11:20.440 as I'm talking to dudes that have been to war,

00:11:23.760 the first and second waves in Fallujah and Iraq,

00:11:26.080 and dealing with all these issues,

00:11:28.500 and I'm working with them,

00:11:29.600 I'm seeing the physiological response

00:11:31.700 of what happens to them at work

00:11:33.400 based on what they experienced.

00:11:35.780 Simultaneously, I'm writing these articles

00:11:37.120 and doing my research for my master's.

00:11:39.040 It was just an amazing connection

00:11:41.200 that I was realizing between the human brain,

00:11:44.280 interpersonal relationships,

00:11:45.660 organizational dynamics,

00:11:46.660 and it definitely added a lot of depth

00:11:49.560 to my understanding of what was going on.

00:11:51.660 When you got out of your initial contract,

00:11:53.640 did you go back to the corporate world

00:11:54.900 or what was going on then?

00:11:56.840 So that was actually pretty recent,

00:11:58.240 like a few months ago.

00:11:58.940 So I'm currently working on another master's degree

00:12:01.700 and I can tell you that I'm 36 now

00:12:05.420 and I can tell you that all the training

00:12:07.340 I did in the military left,

00:12:09.960 it put a fire in me.

00:12:11.540 I'm in the best shape of my life right now

00:12:13.140 and I cannot sit still.

00:12:14.680 I mean, I'm working out multiple workouts a day,

00:12:17.900 still doing ruck runs,

00:12:19.260 still staying physically active.

00:12:20.980 And I thought that when I got out of the military,

00:12:23.640 I would be totally okay

00:12:25.600 with a much more sedentary life,

00:12:27.540 you know, back into an office environment.

00:12:30.880 And that's, yeah,

00:12:32.140 that's definitely not what happened.

00:12:33.300 It's really shocking to me.

00:12:34.620 So I'm currently doing some training

00:12:36.720 with a group of guys

00:12:39.020 that are working on some amazing pipelines

00:12:42.240 in the military.

00:12:42.760 They have some tough pipelines ahead of them

00:12:44.640 and I'm working side by side with them right now

00:12:46.600 at the gym, doing some runs with them.

00:12:49.300 And they're motivating me a lot more

00:12:51.160 than I thought I could ever be motivated.

00:12:53.060 So that's why I'm kind of looking

00:12:55.520 into some additional contracts

00:12:56.840 in the next few months, actually.

00:12:59.360 All right, so let's talk about your book.

00:13:00.420 So Backpack to Rucksack,

00:13:01.880 what you did is, you know,

00:13:03.460 leading up to you trying to figure out

00:13:05.280 whether you're going to sign up with the army

00:13:06.780 and also during that time

00:13:08.300 when you're going through the process

00:13:09.720 of training and whatnot,

00:13:11.540 you had a lot of military friends

00:13:12.880 and that you were talking to them,

00:13:14.480 asking them for advice.

00:13:15.360 Like, what do I need to know

00:13:16.560 when I'm going through this process

00:13:18.140 and becoming a commissioned officer?

00:13:19.880 How do I handle this situation?

00:13:21.320 And what you did in the book

00:13:23.060 is you shared these insights

00:13:24.400 you got from these various friends of yours

00:13:26.840 in the military,

00:13:27.480 from all branches of the military.

00:13:29.620 And then you combine that

00:13:30.660 with your research that you've done

00:13:32.680 in organizational psychology.

00:13:35.080 And so each chapter highlights

00:13:36.820 a different concept or topic.

00:13:38.780 And in the first part of the book,

00:13:40.500 the first chapter,

00:13:41.180 you talk about this bit of advice

00:13:42.640 you got from,

00:13:43.600 I think it was a Green Beret friend of yours,

00:13:45.500 about pursuing attrition in life,

00:13:48.700 but also in the military world.

00:13:50.600 What did he mean by that?

00:13:52.600 So his advice was to pursue pipelines

00:13:57.260 in the military that people complained about.

00:13:59.700 Pursue, basically his philosophy

00:14:02.480 is that any route you want to take in life

00:14:04.540 that other people are afraid of

00:14:06.320 or that they're being just really critical

00:14:08.420 or negative about,

00:14:10.000 it's a filtration mechanism.

00:14:12.240 It'll stop the wrong people from pursuing it

00:14:15.440 and it'll filter for the stronger candidates.

00:14:18.760 And he was just saying,

00:14:20.640 make sure that when you join the military,

00:14:24.960 if you do want to find a group of brothers

00:14:27.660 around yourself

00:14:28.600 that are just operating at a level

00:14:31.420 that is far beyond

00:14:34.580 your own perceived limitations,

00:14:36.920 you need to go down some hard paths

00:14:39.640 that remove the guys who just tap out early.

00:14:43.100 And he said, next thing you know,

00:14:45.460 you'll be rubbing elbows

00:14:46.380 with other people that are like-minded

00:14:48.480 who sort of keep their mouth shut

00:14:50.800 and just work really hard.

00:14:52.640 And this is applicable outside the military too,

00:14:54.680 in work, in your physical fitness.

00:14:56.700 If you want to rub elbows

00:14:58.800 with the best top-notch individuals,

00:15:01.680 do the hard stuff

00:15:02.800 because that's going to filter out

00:15:04.460 all the riffraff.

00:15:06.380 Essentially, that was exactly

00:15:07.980 how he approached life.

00:15:09.540 Yep.

00:15:10.200 So let's talk about another concept

00:15:11.780 you learned from a friend of yours

00:15:13.760 who's a Marine named Will.

00:15:15.700 And he taught you the importance

00:15:17.300 of command climate.

00:15:19.200 What is command climate?

00:15:21.440 Essentially, it's culture.

00:15:23.180 It's work culture.

00:15:24.180 In the military,

00:15:25.140 it's really unique

00:15:26.300 because the person at the top

00:15:28.120 in whatever unit you're looking at

00:15:30.020 tends to,

00:15:30.680 they set the temperature

00:15:31.560 for the entire unit.

00:15:33.640 So if you have someone

00:15:35.160 who is super physical

00:15:37.440 and super into fitness,

00:15:38.760 you'll see that

00:15:40.160 everyone below them,

00:15:41.680 all the subordinates,

00:15:42.680 suddenly begin to really invest

00:15:44.260 in fitness.

00:15:44.840 They suddenly become

00:15:45.700 really gym-oriented.

00:15:48.080 But on the converse side of that,

00:15:49.320 let's say you have someone

00:15:50.300 who is really negative

00:15:51.440 and really,

00:15:52.540 you know,

00:15:53.360 it's an overused word,

00:15:54.580 but if,

00:15:55.200 you know,

00:15:55.340 they say they're toxic

00:15:56.120 or, you know,

00:15:56.880 have certain insecurities

00:15:58.800 or they have a shame-based

00:16:00.160 orientation

00:16:00.860 towards their leadership style,

00:16:02.200 you'll see people below them

00:16:03.480 begin to treat others

00:16:04.680 the same way.

00:16:05.460 And you can't really change

00:16:08.080 command climate

00:16:08.860 in the military.

00:16:10.080 You can't walk into a unit

00:16:11.360 and go up to somebody

00:16:13.000 at that rank

00:16:13.560 and say,

00:16:14.220 hey, sir,

00:16:15.180 hey, ma'am,

00:16:15.600 I need you to conduct

00:16:17.140 yourself differently

00:16:17.920 so we can all experience

00:16:19.500 a whole different climate.

00:16:20.820 What you get

00:16:21.380 is what you get.

00:16:22.320 And Will's advice was

00:16:23.740 you got to make the most of it.

00:16:25.280 If it's bad,

00:16:26.100 it's going to be bad,

00:16:27.220 but you got to just

00:16:28.560 figure out how to handle it

00:16:30.100 until that leader leaves

00:16:31.440 and you get someone new.

00:16:32.880 And if it's good,

00:16:33.620 then definitely count

00:16:35.160 your blessings

00:16:35.680 and just you're going

00:16:37.060 to have a blast

00:16:37.940 in the job for sure.

00:16:38.920 They're going to make

00:16:39.360 the job awesome.

00:16:40.700 Did you have any experiences

00:16:41.660 of really bad

00:16:43.600 command climate

00:16:44.520 in the corporate world

00:16:45.440 or the military?

00:16:47.120 I mean, definitely.

00:16:47.780 I've seen good and bad.

00:16:49.180 I mean,

00:16:49.340 as we all have,

00:16:50.660 I'm sure,

00:16:51.240 you know,

00:16:51.560 so definitely have seen

00:16:53.200 the impact of it.

00:16:54.260 And what's astounding

00:16:56.100 to me

00:16:56.740 is the way

00:16:58.700 in which it compounds

00:17:00.080 the stress around us

00:17:02.000 because,

00:17:02.620 you know,

00:17:03.380 I tell people

00:17:04.720 attack problem sets.

00:17:06.740 Don't attack people.

00:17:07.980 If something sucks,

00:17:08.900 if something needs

00:17:09.440 to be enhanced

00:17:10.160 or optimized

00:17:10.820 or modified,

00:17:11.740 whatever it is,

00:17:12.640 the military

00:17:13.140 and the corporate world,

00:17:14.560 look at the problem

00:17:15.460 set before you.

00:17:16.740 You don't have

00:17:17.160 to make it personal.

00:17:18.060 You don't have

00:17:18.300 to bring emotions

00:17:19.120 into it

00:17:19.820 and attack others

00:17:21.420 and involve ego.

00:17:23.040 So what I've seen

00:17:24.000 good leaders do

00:17:24.900 is when there is

00:17:26.100 an issue

00:17:26.500 that needs to be addressed,

00:17:28.220 they are enablers

00:17:29.380 of people.

00:17:30.040 They enable subordinates.

00:17:31.160 They enable

00:17:31.700 everyone around them

00:17:33.420 to find solutions.

00:17:35.520 And if you fail,

00:17:36.380 then okay,

00:17:37.120 so be it.

00:17:37.700 But pick yourself up

00:17:38.560 and find the next solution

00:17:39.700 that'll work,

00:17:40.440 you know,

00:17:41.060 own it and make it great.

00:17:42.820 Figure out a way

00:17:43.360 to make the situation better.

00:17:45.100 But what I've noticed

00:17:46.060 toxic leaders will do 0.82

00:17:48.060 is they will have

00:17:49.300 a more fixed mindset

00:17:51.140 as Carol Dweck

00:17:51.960 talks about growth

00:17:52.880 versus fixed mindset.

00:17:54.320 They'll sort of approach

00:17:55.200 the situation as,

00:17:56.840 hey,

00:17:56.940 nothing's going to change.

00:17:57.980 This is the way it is.

00:17:59.620 You know,

00:17:59.860 shut up and fall in line. 0.88

00:18:00.940 I don't care

00:18:01.560 what your opinion is.

00:18:02.600 I don't care

00:18:02.940 what data you have

00:18:04.020 from your perspective.

00:18:05.900 I don't see

00:18:06.840 a viable solution

00:18:07.840 and I don't care

00:18:08.760 that you think

00:18:09.620 there is one.

00:18:10.580 Just carry on,

00:18:11.940 keep everything

00:18:12.460 status quo

00:18:13.120 how it is

00:18:13.660 and it's stifling.

00:18:15.620 And it's not

00:18:16.580 just on the job.

00:18:17.780 We take it home

00:18:18.480 with us.

00:18:19.460 It follows us home.

00:18:20.620 That stress,

00:18:21.380 that level of,

00:18:22.580 that feeling

00:18:23.340 of not having a voice.

00:18:24.720 It's really repressive

00:18:25.720 and it feeds a lot

00:18:28.160 into the personality

00:18:28.800 of the leader.

00:18:29.620 So again,

00:18:30.280 if it's a great leader,

00:18:31.200 if there's somebody

00:18:31.780 who's open-minded,

00:18:33.460 you'll feel that.

00:18:34.580 There will be

00:18:35.420 a sense of levity

00:18:36.620 even amidst

00:18:38.140 highly stressed,

00:18:39.400 stressful conversations

00:18:40.440 or situations.

00:18:42.140 And one thing

00:18:42.640 I will say,

00:18:43.720 there was an EOD

00:18:45.380 that talked to us

00:18:46.560 about his experience

00:18:48.780 in Iraq.

00:18:49.880 There was a guy

00:18:50.300 that got blown up

00:18:51.080 and there was a body

00:18:52.880 on the ground

00:18:53.440 and I mean,

00:18:55.000 definitely the dude

00:18:56.880 was jacked up

00:18:57.580 and the medic

00:18:58.960 started panicking

00:19:00.160 and the EOD

00:19:03.020 ran up to him

00:19:04.260 because in those situations,

00:19:05.940 the medic takes control,

00:19:07.220 right?

00:19:07.380 Takes over.

00:19:08.460 A lot of the guys

00:19:09.360 who survived the blast

00:19:10.700 were looking

00:19:11.520 at the medic

00:19:12.560 starting to,

00:19:13.880 to,

00:19:14.660 to,

00:19:14.980 you know,

00:19:15.420 lose control.

00:19:16.840 So this EOD

00:19:17.380 ran up to him

00:19:18.260 and grabbed him

00:19:19.080 and said,

00:19:19.460 look, man,

00:19:20.040 I need you to take a breath

00:19:21.900 and I need you

00:19:23.480 to focus.

00:19:24.600 Do what you can

00:19:25.220 to save this guy.

00:19:26.600 If you can't,

00:19:27.800 fine,

00:19:28.320 but do what you can,

00:19:29.340 but everyone's

00:19:29.980 watching you right now.

00:19:31.220 And what he was telling us

00:19:32.620 as new officers,

00:19:33.620 he said,

00:19:34.160 look,

00:19:34.820 your attitude

00:19:35.480 is everything

00:19:36.520 in the military

00:19:37.120 because calm

00:19:38.200 is contagious

00:19:38.940 just the same way

00:19:40.360 that panic

00:19:40.920 is contagious.

00:19:42.460 So whatever type

00:19:43.280 of leader

00:19:43.680 you're going to be,

00:19:44.920 the men around you,

00:19:46.000 the women around you

00:19:46.800 are going to pick up

00:19:47.780 on that.

00:19:48.740 So be sure to lead

00:19:49.940 and conduct yourself

00:19:51.280 in a way

00:19:51.980 that you want

00:19:53.640 other people

00:19:54.500 to pick up

00:19:55.180 because good or bad,

00:19:56.220 they will pick up

00:19:57.280 on whatever vibe

00:19:59.040 you're putting out

00:19:59.820 into the unit.

00:20:01.520 Okay.

00:20:01.580 So yeah,

00:20:01.880 in order to be a leader

00:20:02.940 that creates

00:20:03.860 a good command climate,

00:20:05.560 it's just,

00:20:06.000 it's a lot of self-work,

00:20:07.360 right?

00:20:07.600 It's working to learn

00:20:08.780 how to control your emotions,

00:20:10.000 working on your own discipline,

00:20:11.680 working on those social

00:20:13.060 and people skills,

00:20:14.000 those soft skills.

00:20:14.860 It's a full-time job.

00:20:16.260 It's not just

00:20:16.640 something that happens.

00:20:17.540 It's something

00:20:17.820 you have to be

00:20:18.140 intentional about.

00:20:19.640 Absolutely.

00:20:20.240 And I learned that

00:20:21.000 in the corporate world.

00:20:21.980 When I started

00:20:22.460 my own business,

00:20:23.240 I had a mentor,

00:20:25.180 George.

00:20:26.040 He's like a father figure

00:20:27.160 to me.

00:20:27.600 And, you know,

00:20:27.960 I was struggling

00:20:28.820 with some high-power

00:20:30.880 executives that were,

00:20:32.800 I was in some negotiations

00:20:34.080 that were just

00:20:35.000 absolutely intimidating

00:20:36.120 to me.

00:20:36.740 And George

00:20:37.120 pulled me aside

00:20:38.460 in sort of a

00:20:39.700 coaching seminar

00:20:41.080 that we had together,

00:20:42.000 a discussion we had.

00:20:42.860 And he let me know.

00:20:44.200 He said,

00:20:44.460 look,

00:20:44.780 basically the man

00:20:45.760 that you are privately,

00:20:46.960 it's going to come out

00:20:48.620 in the room

00:20:49.260 when you negotiate.

00:20:50.340 And he said,

00:20:51.020 these other men

00:20:51.880 you're dealing with

00:20:52.420 are sharks.

00:20:53.100 I mean,

00:20:53.260 if they smell blood

00:20:54.140 in the water,

00:20:54.680 you're dead. 0.69

00:20:55.320 They're going to tear you

00:20:55.920 to pieces

00:20:56.320 in a negotiation.

00:20:57.860 So he said,

00:20:58.800 you got to work

00:20:59.540 on yourself.

00:21:00.540 You got to know

00:21:01.300 who you are

00:21:02.140 outside of the business world,

00:21:04.220 outside of the office,

00:21:05.540 who you are privately.

00:21:06.920 When you put your head

00:21:07.880 on the pillow at night,

00:21:08.700 when you look in the mirror,

00:21:10.020 who are you?

00:21:11.240 Once you figure out

00:21:12.260 who you are

00:21:12.920 and you have a grasp on that

00:21:15.120 and you ground yourself

00:21:16.320 in that,

00:21:17.380 you can then approach

00:21:18.440 the negotiations

00:21:19.500 with that level of confidence

00:21:21.200 that is going to allow you

00:21:22.640 to have better leverage.

00:21:24.220 And other people

00:21:24.820 will not take advantage of you.

00:21:26.700 Situations that suck

00:21:27.860 won't take advantage of you.

00:21:29.140 They won't change you.

00:21:30.400 You will bring light

00:21:31.600 into that dark situation.

00:21:33.600 And that was one

00:21:35.000 of the most profound

00:21:35.740 pieces of information

00:21:36.680 I received

00:21:37.200 because I realized

00:21:39.080 that if I don't work

00:21:41.200 on myself,

00:21:42.240 the guys around me

00:21:43.360 are going to suffer.

00:21:44.540 My ego issues,

00:21:45.640 my insecurities,

00:21:46.960 my personal private hangups

00:21:49.260 are going to come out

00:21:50.760 at work

00:21:51.340 in the way that I speak

00:21:52.280 to others

00:21:52.760 and the way that I treat others.

00:21:54.580 And then all of a sudden

00:21:55.360 they have to manage

00:21:56.200 my emotions for me.

00:21:58.240 And the job's stressful enough,

00:21:59.760 especially in the military.

00:22:01.620 Training can be life and death.

00:22:03.620 And if I'm bringing

00:22:04.340 my own ego issues

00:22:05.360 and the guys around me

00:22:06.520 have to manage that,

00:22:08.620 man, I'm doing them

00:22:10.080 a disservice.

00:22:10.940 So yeah, absolutely.

00:22:13.040 I encourage every leader,

00:22:14.540 pick up books,

00:22:15.900 read, study yourself

00:22:17.140 because you're going

00:22:17.880 to benefit the organization.

00:22:19.260 You're going to benefit

00:22:19.800 your relationships,

00:22:20.820 your marriages,

00:22:21.580 your relationship

00:22:22.100 with your kids.

00:22:23.500 Everything will benefit

00:22:24.460 when you grow yourself

00:22:25.600 privately and personally.

00:22:28.300 We're going to take

00:22:28.560 a quick break

00:22:28.940 for a word from our sponsors.

00:22:30.000 And now back

00:22:35.560 to the show.

00:22:36.680 So in the military,

00:22:38.020 you have to deal

00:22:38.600 with all sorts of personalities,

00:22:40.060 especially big personalities.

00:22:42.580 Did you have any experience

00:22:43.740 dealing with

00:22:44.200 some difficult people

00:22:45.320 with big egos

00:22:46.420 when you were

00:22:46.940 in the military?

00:22:48.640 Yeah, I mean,

00:22:49.100 the,

00:22:50.180 you know,

00:22:50.680 it's common to see people,

00:22:52.820 and again,

00:22:53.180 this happens

00:22:53.580 in any organization,

00:22:54.620 but when you see someone

00:22:56.200 use their rank

00:22:57.200 as a way of

00:22:58.420 trying to stifle others,

00:23:00.640 trying to

00:23:01.840 sort of

00:23:02.920 demand control.

00:23:04.500 In psychology,

00:23:05.340 they call that

00:23:05.940 positional authority.

00:23:07.780 You can have

00:23:08.360 moral authority,

00:23:09.320 you can have

00:23:09.780 positional authority.

00:23:11.240 Moral basically means

00:23:12.320 when you walk in a room,

00:23:14.140 regardless of rank people,

00:23:15.420 they trust you.

00:23:16.180 They know that you know things.

00:23:17.440 They see that confidence in you.

00:23:18.860 Positional authority

00:23:19.620 means,

00:23:20.480 hey,

00:23:21.140 do you know who I am?

00:23:22.100 Do you know where I am

00:23:22.920 on the hierarchy?

00:23:23.800 Okay, cool.

00:23:24.400 So follow mine.

00:23:25.420 You know,

00:23:25.540 they rely on their rank

00:23:27.160 and yeah,

00:23:28.300 I mean,

00:23:28.480 I've seen that

00:23:29.340 and I've had to

00:23:30.860 manage that.

00:23:32.080 Absolutely.

00:23:33.140 Did you have any

00:23:33.740 military friends

00:23:34.520 who gave you any advice

00:23:35.620 on what to do

00:23:36.400 with those big egos?

00:23:37.660 People who were trying

00:23:38.200 to use,

00:23:38.720 you know,

00:23:39.520 their positional authority

00:23:40.500 to get things

00:23:42.040 the way they wanted?

00:23:44.320 Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:45.160 So one of the biggest

00:23:46.380 piece of advice on that

00:23:47.400 was my buddy Brad,

00:23:48.280 who's an EOD commander now,

00:23:50.800 but he was deployed

00:23:51.520 in Afghanistan

00:23:52.160 and he told me

00:23:53.960 about some situations

00:23:54.740 where guys,

00:23:55.500 you know,

00:23:55.720 would try to pull rank

00:23:56.580 and he would let them know,

00:23:58.180 I mean,

00:23:58.440 and this would happen

00:23:59.100 in the battlefield

00:23:59.680 as he's dealing

00:24:00.920 with an IED

00:24:01.540 and he had to tell people

00:24:02.940 of some people

00:24:03.860 of very high rank

00:24:04.660 to shut up 0.98

00:24:05.800 and sit down

00:24:06.440 because if they continue

00:24:07.600 to distract him,

00:24:08.680 there could be fallout

00:24:10.700 that'll kill 0.84

00:24:11.220 everybody around them.

00:24:12.320 So what he taught me

00:24:14.340 was when you know

00:24:16.640 something is correct,

00:24:18.380 there's a way

00:24:19.140 to present it

00:24:19.960 to somebody

00:24:20.520 who's in authority

00:24:21.600 with a respectful attitude

00:24:25.340 yet assertive.

00:24:27.500 Assertion is really important

00:24:28.680 when you know

00:24:29.500 something is right.

00:24:31.020 So it is important

00:24:32.180 to stand by what you know.

00:24:34.080 However,

00:24:35.320 depending on what personality

00:24:36.820 you're dealing with,

00:24:37.760 you got to manage it

00:24:38.780 in a way that

00:24:39.220 they will be receptive to it

00:24:40.620 and at that point

00:24:42.840 it's really dependent

00:24:44.600 on the person

00:24:45.460 that you're dealing with

00:24:46.460 because sometimes

00:24:47.200 direct is the best approach.

00:24:48.540 Other times

00:24:49.040 you got to stroke

00:24:50.120 their ego a bit.

00:24:51.140 You got to find a way

00:24:52.700 to,

00:24:53.440 I don't want to say

00:24:54.280 play the politics of it

00:24:55.940 because that can get

00:24:56.420 really dirty

00:24:56.980 but you got to find a way

00:24:58.920 to get them

00:25:00.360 to have an open mind

00:25:01.320 and this is where,

00:25:04.060 I mean,

00:25:04.220 I could talk for days

00:25:05.260 about this

00:25:05.820 but this is something

00:25:06.560 we learn in jujitsu

00:25:07.600 as well.

00:25:08.440 We call it

00:25:08.980 working the angles

00:25:10.340 basically.

00:25:11.900 Jiu-jitsu is all about

00:25:12.600 having the right angle.

00:25:14.140 Approaching leadership dynamics,

00:25:15.820 it's the same way.

00:25:17.060 Certain leaders,

00:25:17.880 again,

00:25:18.300 hit them head on.

00:25:19.200 They'll respect that.

00:25:20.020 They'll respond to it.

00:25:21.400 Other leaders,

00:25:22.180 you can't do that

00:25:22.840 because once you do it,

00:25:24.160 it's fight mode

00:25:24.980 and the discussions

00:25:26.980 completely derailed.

00:25:28.840 Yeah,

00:25:29.020 you gave some examples

00:25:29.660 in the book of,

00:25:30.660 I think when you were

00:25:31.140 in basic training,

00:25:32.500 you had some guys

00:25:33.280 who were kind of

00:25:33.900 big dogging,

00:25:34.660 right?

00:25:34.780 They just kind of,

00:25:35.920 they kind of walked around

00:25:37.120 like they were the stuff,

00:25:38.440 right?

00:25:38.600 They had the stuff

00:25:39.340 and they were just annoying

00:25:40.320 and they would do

00:25:41.660 these things

00:25:41.980 where they kind of

00:25:42.400 confront you

00:25:43.100 and try to assert

00:25:44.560 themselves over you

00:25:46.660 in the dominance hierarchy

00:25:47.880 and you talked about

00:25:49.340 how you're really tempted

00:25:50.160 to just,

00:25:50.760 I'm going to punch back

00:25:52.300 or I'm going to push back,

00:25:53.220 I'm going to get angry

00:25:53.780 about it

00:25:54.320 but like you said,

00:25:55.060 you did some like

00:25:55.660 psychological jujitsu

00:25:57.080 on these guys

00:25:58.700 to,

00:25:59.660 instead of them being enemies

00:26:01.060 or a liability,

00:26:01.940 they actually ended up

00:26:02.500 being an asset.

00:26:03.300 What did you do

00:26:03.980 to turn those guys

00:26:05.060 from,

00:26:05.860 you weren't best friends

00:26:06.660 with them

00:26:06.920 but they became guys

00:26:07.840 who you could,

00:26:09.200 who you could collaborate

00:26:10.340 with and get things done?

00:26:12.240 Yeah,

00:26:12.500 I think in retrospect

00:26:13.880 maybe they were trying

00:26:14.540 to size me up

00:26:15.280 to see if,

00:26:16.000 you know,

00:26:16.480 if I would stand up

00:26:17.820 for myself

00:26:18.380 and in any case

00:26:19.260 I was very direct

00:26:20.620 when I approached them,

00:26:21.720 you know,

00:26:21.900 I maintained eye contact,

00:26:24.360 I was very direct

00:26:25.600 but I also did it privately.

00:26:27.440 I didn't do it in a way,

00:26:28.840 so they would,

00:26:29.540 there was a situation

00:26:30.140 where I was being called out

00:26:31.420 in front of the,

00:26:32.880 the entire platoon

00:26:35.040 and this was in training,

00:26:36.400 not my actual platoon

00:26:37.540 but back in,

00:26:38.560 in the schoolhouse

00:26:39.420 and so what I decided

00:26:41.280 to do is,

00:26:42.760 you know,

00:26:43.020 control my heart rate,

00:26:43.980 control my breathing.

00:26:44.800 It's the same way 0.70

00:26:45.340 like on the mats

00:26:46.260 when I'm getting smashed

00:26:47.200 by one of the black belts 0.52

00:26:48.200 that I train with.

00:26:49.100 I need to gain

00:26:50.120 physiological control

00:26:51.160 of my body,

00:26:52.540 calm myself down

00:26:53.500 and then what I did

00:26:54.560 is I directly approached

00:26:55.900 one of these individuals

00:26:56.880 and I let them know,

00:26:58.320 hey,

00:26:58.440 we're going to have

00:26:58.900 a conversation about this

00:27:00.040 but it's,

00:27:00.580 again,

00:27:00.880 it's not going to be emotional.

00:27:02.500 This is just going to be

00:27:03.400 man to man,

00:27:04.520 we're just going to have

00:27:05.120 a quick talk about this

00:27:06.280 and he quickly realized

00:27:09.500 that I wasn't there

00:27:11.140 to start a fight.

00:27:12.600 I was there to learn.

00:27:13.440 I let him know that.

00:27:14.160 I said,

00:27:14.420 look,

00:27:14.660 you know,

00:27:14.900 I know I'm new.

00:27:16.240 I know you've been

00:27:16.660 in the military for a while.

00:27:18.120 I'm not here

00:27:18.940 to be disrespectful.

00:27:20.200 I'm not here

00:27:21.200 to flex on anyone.

00:27:23.400 I'm here to learn.

00:27:24.480 So if you have something

00:27:25.200 to teach me,

00:27:25.940 I'm all ears

00:27:26.560 but I'm not going to play

00:27:27.960 this game of,

00:27:28.940 you know,

00:27:29.660 one-upmanship.

00:27:30.640 That's just not how I roll

00:27:31.700 and I learned that

00:27:33.880 because of my high school friend,

00:27:35.440 Tim,

00:27:35.860 who introduced me

00:27:36.860 to jiu-jitsu.

00:27:37.860 He told me that

00:27:39.000 if you're ever dealing

00:27:39.760 with somebody

00:27:40.320 who just absolutely

00:27:42.240 wants to tear you

00:27:43.280 to pieces on the mat

00:27:44.260 and wants to smash

00:27:45.340 your face into the mat,

00:27:46.980 you need to tell them,

00:27:48.500 I'm not here to fight.

00:27:49.680 I'm here to learn.

00:27:51.160 So if you're here to fight,

00:27:52.420 that's not why I'm here.

00:27:54.080 And it really has

00:27:55.680 tremendously

00:27:57.020 had an impact

00:27:58.260 on the mats.

00:27:58.900 So I started taking

00:28:00.140 that principle

00:28:00.620 into the military

00:28:01.360 and it had the same impact.

00:28:03.080 It was amazing.

00:28:04.220 All right.

00:28:04.300 So yeah,

00:28:04.500 be direct,

00:28:05.180 do it in private.

00:28:06.100 You can be assertive

00:28:06.840 but not a jerk about it.

00:28:08.460 I think that's the key.

00:28:09.680 Let's talk about

00:28:10.480 the politics

00:28:11.200 of military life.

00:28:12.240 So you mentioned that

00:28:12.840 the military can be political

00:28:14.700 and by political,

00:28:16.280 we mean that

00:28:16.700 you do,

00:28:17.800 it's people who do

00:28:18.820 and say things

00:28:19.600 whatever it takes

00:28:20.560 to advance their career.

00:28:22.620 But you talk about,

00:28:23.380 you learned this

00:28:23.760 from your military buddies

00:28:24.560 that politics can get

00:28:25.660 in the way of effectiveness.

00:28:26.940 How so?

00:28:27.340 So and again,

00:28:29.780 this is highly applicable

00:28:30.680 to the corporate world,

00:28:31.980 to any organization.

00:28:33.440 Some people will

00:28:34.680 use their rank

00:28:36.160 and authority

00:28:36.720 to get their agenda done.

00:28:38.620 Whatever their agenda is,

00:28:39.700 usually I'd say

00:28:40.480 to promote their own

00:28:41.460 sort of resume.

00:28:42.940 But they'll do so

00:28:43.700 at the expense

00:28:44.460 of the well-being

00:28:45.340 of those around them

00:28:46.320 not wanting to hear

00:28:47.760 about inconvenient pieces

00:28:49.140 of information

00:28:49.860 about the organization.

00:28:51.060 But that can

00:28:51.560 quickly get dark.

00:28:53.220 So what's really important

00:28:56.560 and the advice I received

00:28:57.760 is listen to the people

00:28:59.120 around you.

00:28:59.820 Give everybody a voice

00:29:01.400 so you know

00:29:02.540 what exactly

00:29:03.740 needs to be improved

00:29:04.940 to help others.

00:29:06.300 And any rank

00:29:07.220 that as you rank up,

00:29:09.460 the higher rank

00:29:10.300 you get,

00:29:11.380 the more people you serve.

00:29:12.760 It's not the other way around.

00:29:14.660 Because a lot of people

00:29:15.500 commonly think

00:29:16.580 that with more rank

00:29:18.260 and more authority,

00:29:19.660 you have more power

00:29:20.600 over more people.

00:29:21.440 But if you look at it inversely,

00:29:23.820 it really helps

00:29:25.520 add a healthier context

00:29:27.400 to the relationship.

00:29:28.940 The more rank you have,

00:29:30.180 the higher up you are,

00:29:31.500 the more people

00:29:32.340 you are actually serving

00:29:34.120 as a leader.

00:29:35.680 And the way you serve

00:29:36.660 those people,

00:29:37.940 and I get it,

00:29:38.820 you can't have

00:29:39.920 a perfect solution

00:29:40.700 that everybody's happy with.

00:29:42.500 But the more conversations

00:29:43.840 you have,

00:29:44.940 the more incremental improvements

00:29:46.340 you can have

00:29:46.880 throughout the organization

00:29:47.860 by removing red tape

00:29:50.560 wherever you can

00:29:51.320 remove red tape,

00:29:52.680 allowing people

00:29:53.520 to get the schools

00:29:56.180 that they want to get,

00:29:57.340 to work towards

00:29:58.020 the credentials,

00:29:58.840 to pursue the education

00:29:59.940 they need,

00:30:00.460 to have time

00:30:00.980 with their family,

00:30:01.720 with their kids,

00:30:02.660 if they need medical help,

00:30:04.120 whatever it is,

00:30:05.440 just allowing rank

00:30:07.140 to be used

00:30:07.920 to improve the unit

00:30:09.780 and not to just demand

00:30:11.740 sort of respect

00:30:13.180 authoritatively.

00:30:14.300 So take a servant

00:30:15.820 leadership approach

00:30:16.880 instead of thinking about,

00:30:18.820 well, how can I advance

00:30:19.760 the hierarchy

00:30:20.200 and improve my own

00:30:22.020 status and rank?

00:30:23.720 Right.

00:30:24.540 Yeah.

00:30:24.900 And for a book,

00:30:25.980 I don't know if you've

00:30:26.540 read this book,

00:30:27.460 it's a great book

00:30:28.120 that highlights

00:30:28.660 the difference

00:30:29.060 between a military leader

00:30:30.720 who is very political

00:30:31.840 and one who has

00:30:33.140 that servant leadership

00:30:34.160 approach.

00:30:34.800 It's Once an Eagle.

00:30:36.080 Have you read this book?

00:30:37.740 So that book

00:30:38.620 is definitely the Bible

00:30:39.720 to a lot of my friends.

00:30:40.800 Yeah.

00:30:41.440 No, so it was written

00:30:43.040 in 1968.

00:30:43.740 It follows these two officers

00:30:46.040 from World War I

00:30:47.880 through Vietnam.

00:30:49.880 One guy is Sam Damon,

00:30:52.220 career army officer.

00:30:53.680 Started off as a private

00:30:54.660 and then he rose up

00:30:56.300 to general officer rank

00:30:57.680 and he was honorable.

00:30:59.340 Like he was all

00:30:59.840 about his soldiers.

00:31:00.880 He was like the epitome.

00:31:02.100 Like he was the guy.

00:31:03.060 And then the other guy

00:31:04.280 who was the more

00:31:04.980 political officer

00:31:06.460 was this guy

00:31:06.940 named Courtney Massengill.

00:31:08.560 No honor,

00:31:09.380 had no concern

00:31:10.000 for his troops.

00:31:10.540 All he cared about

00:31:11.320 was going up in the rank

00:31:13.180 and it's a great,

00:31:14.460 it's a great book

00:31:15.200 if you want.

00:31:15.600 It's a beast of a book

00:31:16.820 but a lot of great lessons

00:31:18.160 on leadership,

00:31:18.960 especially about

00:31:19.480 that dichotomy

00:31:20.220 between being

00:31:21.400 a political leader

00:31:22.160 and a servant leadership

00:31:23.560 type leader.

00:31:25.900 Definitely.

00:31:26.600 We've had a lot of talks

00:31:27.640 about that book.

00:31:28.460 Yep.

00:31:29.360 So a lot of the advice

00:31:30.400 in the book

00:31:30.800 is about just how

00:31:31.800 to stay calm, right?

00:31:33.140 Even when things

00:31:33.880 are going just crazy

00:31:35.060 around you.

00:31:36.180 What was some

00:31:36.820 of the best advice

00:31:37.420 you got from your

00:31:37.940 military buddies

00:31:38.660 on staying calm

00:31:39.940 during chaos?

00:31:42.360 I mean,

00:31:42.720 essentially,

00:31:43.600 just have

00:31:45.000 an awareness

00:31:46.420 of your physiological

00:31:47.160 response

00:31:48.060 to kind of zero

00:31:49.420 out your own

00:31:51.120 emotional impact

00:31:53.400 in a situation

00:31:54.240 because,

00:31:55.660 you know,

00:31:56.700 oftentimes

00:31:57.180 when,

00:31:59.040 let's say,

00:31:59.440 a mission set

00:32:00.200 suddenly changes,

00:32:01.060 so we have

00:32:02.540 a movement,

00:32:03.180 we're trying

00:32:03.480 to get the convoy

00:32:04.300 from one location

00:32:05.360 to another

00:32:05.940 and everybody's

00:32:07.180 been briefed on it

00:32:08.080 and then suddenly

00:32:09.100 a wrench gets thrown in

00:32:10.480 because,

00:32:10.840 you know,

00:32:10.980 we were simulating

00:32:11.740 combat as realistically

00:32:13.620 as possible

00:32:14.380 and there's tempers flare.

00:32:16.800 People get real mad

00:32:18.340 real quick

00:32:18.980 when,

00:32:19.580 you know,

00:32:19.840 it's 125 degrees

00:32:21.620 and you're in your full kit

00:32:23.060 and we're talking

00:32:23.960 about some dangerous terrain,

00:32:26.100 some night movements,

00:32:27.800 things can get

00:32:28.380 real sketchy

00:32:29.120 real fast

00:32:29.820 and as a leader,

00:32:31.940 especially,

00:32:32.900 if I were to feed

00:32:34.140 into that angst

00:32:35.440 with that same level

00:32:36.920 of anger

00:32:38.080 and frustration

00:32:38.920 as I'm trying

00:32:40.580 to brief

00:32:41.280 the change

00:32:42.360 in the mission,

00:32:43.000 I mean,

00:32:44.080 it would be horrible.

00:32:44.920 It would just turn

00:32:45.520 into this cluster

00:32:46.500 of egos

00:32:48.000 and sparks would fly.

00:32:49.480 People would just be

00:32:50.160 yelling at each other

00:32:50.920 and I never wanted

00:32:51.740 to do that.

00:32:52.440 So,

00:32:53.340 the advice I received

00:32:54.700 was,

00:32:55.360 hey, look,

00:32:55.920 when things suck,

00:32:56.900 you just gotta

00:32:57.420 calm yourself down,

00:33:00.080 find your center,

00:33:01.320 again,

00:33:01.700 remove the emotionality

00:33:03.000 out of it,

00:33:03.680 the primal limbic

00:33:05.160 response of the brain.

00:33:06.700 Get back into

00:33:07.320 your prefrontal cortex

00:33:08.700 and I'm talking

00:33:09.180 psychology here,

00:33:10.180 but essentially

00:33:11.380 get into your

00:33:12.040 higher mind

00:33:13.200 and come in there

00:33:14.420 with a sense of

00:33:15.400 awareness

00:33:15.960 and transparency.

00:33:17.600 Like, hey,

00:33:18.040 guys,

00:33:18.420 this is gonna suck. 0.83

00:33:19.400 I know it's gonna suck,

00:33:20.760 all right,

00:33:21.160 but here's the change.

00:33:22.780 We're gonna do it,

00:33:24.380 but let's just,

00:33:25.080 let's get it done.

00:33:25.740 We know what needs

00:33:26.340 to be done

00:33:26.820 and having that,

00:33:29.040 you know,

00:33:29.520 that open and honest,

00:33:30.700 that truthful approach,

00:33:31.660 it helps kind of quell

00:33:33.420 the anxiety of those

00:33:34.620 around you

00:33:35.060 because then they realize

00:33:36.020 you're not leaving

00:33:37.960 things undiscussed.

00:33:39.220 You know,

00:33:39.420 everything can be

00:33:40.140 talked about

00:33:40.740 and then,

00:33:42.140 yeah,

00:33:42.260 we just kind of get over it.

00:33:43.280 Like,

00:33:43.440 all right,

00:33:43.720 cool,

00:33:44.060 yeah,

00:33:44.260 you acknowledge it sucks, 0.91

00:33:45.400 I acknowledge it sucks,

00:33:46.260 it sucks as well, 0.74

00:33:47.220 all right,

00:33:47.460 let's do it

00:33:48.120 and let's do it safely

00:33:48.860 and let's do it in a manner

00:33:49.740 that's efficient.

00:33:50.880 But when people come in

00:33:51.940 and say,

00:33:53.320 hey,

00:33:53.640 you know,

00:33:53.840 something change,

00:33:54.480 you're going to do it.

00:33:56.680 Don't talk back,

00:33:57.720 get into the vehicle,

00:33:58.780 do this,

00:33:59.180 do that,

00:33:59.560 whatever it is

00:34:00.260 that needs to be changed.

00:34:01.180 Oh man,

00:34:01.660 there's gonna be some resentment

00:34:02.940 that builds quickly.

00:34:04.840 So you have a chapter

00:34:05.740 on knowing the difference

00:34:07.920 between garrison

00:34:08.780 and field leadership.

00:34:10.720 What's the difference

00:34:11.460 between the two?

00:34:11.960 So yeah,

00:34:13.120 my artillery officer buddy

00:34:15.180 told me that,

00:34:15.920 Jazz.

00:34:17.080 So,

00:34:17.540 okay,

00:34:18.380 so in the field,

00:34:19.820 you deal with,

00:34:20.820 like,

00:34:21.220 let's say desert terrain

00:34:22.120 or whatever,

00:34:23.160 it could be in the woods,

00:34:24.560 it could be,

00:34:25.220 I don't know,

00:34:25.640 wherever you are,

00:34:26.260 but you're dealing with

00:34:28.100 more kinetic factors

00:34:29.900 of the job,

00:34:30.760 you're dealing with

00:34:31.380 weapon systems,

00:34:32.520 you're dealing with

00:34:33.460 adverse weather conditions,

00:34:36.160 rough terrain,

00:34:37.700 and if you're a leader who,

00:34:40.620 so in garrison,

00:34:41.460 it's on base,

00:34:42.740 that's more of the office side,

00:34:44.140 that's more of the paperwork

00:34:44.960 and stuff like that.

00:34:46.260 So let's say you're great

00:34:47.100 at the paperwork,

00:34:47.740 if you go out in the field

00:34:48.760 and you suck, 0.99

00:34:49.820 then you could lead your convoy

00:34:51.440 off a cliff,

00:34:52.500 you know?

00:34:53.500 Conversely,

00:34:53.960 if you're really good

00:34:54.880 at the tactics in the field

00:34:56.240 and you're good at,

00:34:56.960 you know,

00:34:57.220 moving people around

00:34:58.140 and getting things done out there,

00:34:59.480 but you come back

00:35:00.220 to the office life

00:35:01.120 and you don't know

00:35:01.900 how to work a computer

00:35:02.740 or write a memo,

00:35:04.480 then your guys

00:35:05.720 are gonna suffer

00:35:06.300 because you're not able

00:35:07.720 to put in the awards for them,

00:35:09.120 you're not able

00:35:09.580 to get them to the schools

00:35:10.520 that they need to get to

00:35:11.540 or help them

00:35:12.740 with anything else

00:35:13.760 that's,

00:35:14.480 you know,

00:35:14.780 related to their personal lives.

00:35:16.340 So my buddy was telling me

00:35:19.240 you could be

00:35:20.560 two of three things

00:35:22.460 in the military,

00:35:23.720 you're good at

00:35:24.140 two of three things.

00:35:24.880 You could be

00:35:25.320 either a good officer

00:35:27.320 in the field,

00:35:28.400 you could be a good officer

00:35:29.540 in garrison,

00:35:30.580 or a good person.

00:35:33.180 You can't be all three,

00:35:34.440 you're always just

00:35:35.100 two of those three.

00:35:36.100 But he said

00:35:37.120 always default

00:35:38.120 to being a good person

00:35:39.660 because whether you suck 0.88

00:35:40.880 in the field

00:35:41.380 or you suck in garrison, 0.81

00:35:42.700 your guys are gonna

00:35:43.940 have your back.

00:35:44.600 But if you're not

00:35:45.120 a good person,

00:35:46.100 then it doesn't matter

00:35:47.840 that you're good

00:35:48.280 at the other two

00:35:48.920 because everyone's

00:35:49.580 gonna suffer.

00:35:50.460 So that's kind of

00:35:52.020 a short and sweet.

00:35:54.440 Yeah,

00:35:54.620 I think we wrote

00:35:55.600 an article a while

00:35:56.840 back ago

00:35:57.380 about this difference

00:35:58.340 between garrison

00:35:58.900 and field

00:35:59.480 between Eisenhower

00:36:00.940 and Patton.

00:36:02.320 So Patton was probably,

00:36:03.400 he was probably

00:36:03.800 the better tactical officer.

00:36:05.140 He loved being out

00:36:05.720 in the field,

00:36:06.660 being with the men

00:36:07.440 and being in the muck

00:36:08.640 and just being

00:36:09.660 in the action.

00:36:11.020 Eisenhower was more 0.98

00:36:12.260 of a strategic officer,

00:36:14.360 the garrison.

00:36:15.120 He was really good

00:36:15.880 at people skills,

00:36:17.440 negotiating,

00:36:18.640 dealing with

00:36:19.200 administrative things,

00:36:20.740 things like that.

00:36:21.860 And because I think

00:36:23.140 their personality

00:36:23.700 suited those different things.

00:36:24.820 And I think a lot

00:36:25.260 of leaders,

00:36:25.860 they get into trouble

00:36:26.720 whenever they,

00:36:27.900 they might be better

00:36:28.780 as a field officer,

00:36:30.180 but they get stuck

00:36:31.160 in a garrison position

00:36:32.720 or the opposite,

00:36:34.340 like a garrison leader

00:36:35.260 gets stuck

00:36:36.240 in a field position.

00:36:37.960 And I think the trick

00:36:38.720 in leadership

00:36:39.080 is finding out

00:36:39.640 what you're good at.

00:36:40.420 And so this applies

00:36:41.200 to the corporate world

00:36:41.880 as well.

00:36:42.660 You might be a guy

00:36:43.500 who you're,

00:36:44.400 say you're in sales

00:36:45.200 or something.

00:36:45.940 You're really great

00:36:46.880 being out in the field

00:36:47.760 and talking to customers

00:36:49.400 and dealing with

00:36:50.200 other salesmen

00:36:50.920 and encouraging them

00:36:51.760 and motivating them.

00:36:52.960 And maybe you get

00:36:53.960 the promotion

00:36:54.520 to,

00:36:55.460 you manage

00:36:56.300 a whole region

00:36:57.800 or maybe you're

00:36:58.340 at the office headquarters

00:36:59.580 and you're just miserable

00:37:00.460 because it just doesn't

00:37:01.860 suit your personality.

00:37:03.140 So I think that's another

00:37:03.660 trick of leadership

00:37:04.280 is trying to figure out

00:37:05.080 what you're good at

00:37:06.040 and leaning into that

00:37:07.580 and not being tempted

00:37:09.160 to go to something else

00:37:10.780 because it might seem

00:37:11.840 more prestigious

00:37:12.500 or they might have

00:37:13.260 more status.

00:37:14.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:15.740 And I would say

00:37:16.260 the best way

00:37:17.300 to handle that situation

00:37:18.680 when things seem

00:37:20.260 sort of out of sync

00:37:21.160 with who you are

00:37:21.780 is to rely on those

00:37:22.720 around you.

00:37:23.420 And again,

00:37:24.100 being a leader

00:37:24.660 is being an enabler.

00:37:25.880 So enabling those people

00:37:26.720 around you

00:37:27.160 to compensate

00:37:28.060 for those deficits,

00:37:29.100 to use their strength

00:37:30.660 to,

00:37:31.480 as a team,

00:37:32.820 build a better unit.

00:37:34.320 So that's huge.

00:37:35.400 So if ego gets in the way

00:37:36.400 and a leader says,

00:37:37.100 no, I got this.

00:37:37.820 I know the book on this.

00:37:38.960 I know the solutions

00:37:40.060 and I'll fix it.

00:37:40.720 I'll figure it out.

00:37:42.360 Everyone's going to stand around

00:37:43.360 and just watch that leader fail.

00:37:44.940 So it's really important

00:37:45.900 to just admit,

00:37:46.740 hey guys,

00:37:47.380 look,

00:37:47.800 I'm great at this stuff.

00:37:49.020 This stuff right here,

00:37:49.840 I need your help.

00:37:50.780 So let's do it.

00:37:53.080 And with that open honesty

00:37:54.340 and that mindset,

00:37:55.020 it really helps

00:37:56.160 shift everything around

00:37:57.180 for that unit.

00:37:57.680 So Dan,

00:37:58.300 we've talked about

00:37:58.700 some great concepts

00:37:59.400 in your book.

00:38:00.040 Is there anything

00:38:00.600 that we missed

00:38:01.320 that you're really passionate about

00:38:02.580 that you hope

00:38:03.160 people will get out of it?

00:38:04.700 The biggest thing

00:38:05.540 that's on my mind

00:38:06.540 is the suicides

00:38:07.980 that happen

00:38:08.500 with veterans

00:38:09.420 and with active duty

00:38:10.540 service members.

00:38:11.660 Leaders can do so much

00:38:12.880 to just approach the job

00:38:14.400 with a sense of humanity,

00:38:16.960 a sense of kindness,

00:38:18.560 a sense of love

00:38:19.440 for their troops

00:38:20.280 that doesn't stop

00:38:22.140 their tactical abilities.

00:38:23.820 It doesn't,

00:38:24.500 it enhances it.

00:38:25.500 And this isn't something

00:38:26.360 I've necessarily

00:38:27.920 just come up with

00:38:29.060 on my own, right?

00:38:29.800 This is something

00:38:30.440 people who've been to war

00:38:32.160 have told me.

00:38:32.880 They said the purest feeling

00:38:34.680 was being in a war zone

00:38:36.160 where the number one concern

00:38:38.180 is did everyone make it back

00:38:40.040 from that movement,

00:38:40.740 from that patrol?

00:38:41.960 Is everyone intact?

00:38:43.300 Is everyone here?

00:38:44.260 Are they present?

00:38:44.960 Are they okay?

00:38:46.320 You know,

00:38:47.100 these service members

00:38:47.940 that I got to work with

00:38:49.060 and these friends

00:38:49.680 that I've just,

00:38:51.080 I'm so pumped

00:38:51.880 that I was able

00:38:52.440 to learn from them

00:38:53.620 and they just,

00:38:55.720 they told me to focus

00:38:56.500 on the relationships

00:38:57.320 because when you do that,

00:39:00.540 you give people

00:39:01.340 the resources

00:39:02.020 and the tools

00:39:02.820 to handle

00:39:04.120 all the struggles

00:39:05.420 in life

00:39:05.960 that come home

00:39:06.680 with them

00:39:07.200 where, you know,

00:39:08.220 they're not around

00:39:08.840 their buddies.

00:39:09.340 They're not connected

00:39:10.900 with others necessarily,

00:39:12.060 but they understand

00:39:13.240 how to handle it.

00:39:14.160 They see their value.

00:39:15.000 They see their capacity

00:39:15.960 to overcome

00:39:16.620 and that resilience

00:39:17.500 stays true.

00:39:18.580 So I would say

00:39:19.340 the biggest takeaway

00:39:20.820 is if you're a leader,

00:39:22.200 please don't be afraid

00:39:24.000 to look into

00:39:25.280 what we consider

00:39:26.340 the softer side

00:39:27.780 of human relationships

00:39:29.880 because counterintuitively,

00:39:32.620 it will not stop you

00:39:34.000 from being a savage tactically

00:39:36.420 to being able to crush

00:39:37.580 whatever physical feat

00:39:39.620 is before you.

00:39:40.900 But I just see

00:39:42.240 sort of this trepidation

00:39:43.740 about approaching leadership

00:39:45.140 that way

00:39:45.580 because people don't want

00:39:46.620 to seem vulnerable

00:39:47.420 and weak.

00:39:48.200 And I understand that,

00:39:50.120 but do the research.

00:39:51.600 Look at the psychological

00:39:52.680 implications of connecting

00:39:53.940 with people

00:39:54.420 on that deeper level

00:39:55.280 because it will save lives.

00:39:57.820 Well, Dan,

00:39:58.060 this has been a great conversation.

00:39:59.200 Where can people go

00:39:59.800 to learn more

00:40:00.200 about the book

00:40:00.680 and your work?

00:40:02.020 I have a website,

00:40:03.200 combatpsych.com

00:40:04.620 they can go to

00:40:05.420 and the book is on Amazon,

00:40:07.120 Backpack to Rucksack,

00:40:08.760 Insight into Leadership

00:40:09.660 and Resilience

00:40:10.420 for Military Experts.

00:40:12.320 And they can just put my name

00:40:13.320 on there, Dan Joseph.

00:40:15.300 Fantastic.

00:40:15.760 Well, Dan Joseph,

00:40:16.360 thanks for your time.

00:40:16.820 It's been a pleasure.

00:40:17.820 Thank you.

00:40:18.380 Appreciate it.

00:40:19.300 My guest here was Dan Joseph.

00:40:20.340 So if he's the author

00:40:21.020 of the book,

00:40:21.580 Backpack to Rucksack,

00:40:22.660 it's available on amazon.com.

00:40:24.280 You can find more information

00:40:25.100 about his work

00:40:25.540 at his website,

00:40:26.300 combatpsych.com.

00:40:28.060 Also check out our show notes

00:40:28.960 at awim.is

00:40:29.900 slash military mentors

00:40:31.100 where you can find links

00:40:31.760 to resources

00:40:32.340 where you can delve

00:40:32.740 deeper into this topic.

00:40:41.000 Well, that wraps up

00:40:42.020 another edition

00:40:42.680 of the AWIM podcast.

00:40:43.820 Make sure to check out

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00:40:46.280 our podcast archives

00:40:47.300 as well as thousands

00:40:48.160 of articles

00:40:48.560 that we've written

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00:40:49.460 about pretty much

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00:41:16.720 As always,

00:41:17.640 thank you for the

00:41:18.040 continued support.

00:41:19.000 Until next time,

00:41:19.620 this is Brett McKay

00:41:20.300 reminding you

00:41:21.360 to not only listen

00:41:22.120 to the AWIM podcast,

00:41:23.260 but put what you've

00:41:24.120 heard into action.

00:41:24.940 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - May 03, 2023

Leadership Lessons From Military Mentors

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