The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


Leadership Lessons From Military Mentors


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

11


Summary

When Daniel Zia Joseph decided to join the Army at the unusually late age of 32, he solicited advice from his buddies who had served in the military on how to succeed in the experience and become a good officer and leader. Today, he passes on these leadership lessons to us.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:11.240 When Daniel Zia Joseph decided to join the Army at the unusually late age of 32,
00:00:16.660 he solicited advice from his buddies who had served in the military
00:00:19.440 on how to succeed in the experience and become a good officer and leader.
00:00:23.460 Today, he passes on these leadership lessons to us.
00:00:26.620 Dan is the author of Backpack to Rucksack,
00:00:28.520 Insight into Leadership and Resilience from Military Experts.
00:00:32.180 And he first shares why he decided to join the Army at an older age
00:00:35.180 and what he would tell other guys who keep thinking about doing the same thing.
00:00:39.140 We talk about how he prepared himself to be a leader
00:00:41.240 and how getting his master's in organizational psychology helped deepen his development.
00:00:45.540 We then discuss the lessons his military mentors imparted to him,
00:00:49.140 including why you should pursue attrition,
00:00:51.440 the importance of command climate,
00:00:53.200 using psychological jujitsu,
00:00:54.920 and the difference between garrison and field leadership.
00:00:57.620 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awimp.is
00:01:01.140 slash militarymentors.
00:01:02.540 All right, Dan Joseph, welcome to the show.
00:01:23.160 Hey, glad to be here.
00:01:24.460 Thanks for having me.
00:01:25.380 So you got a new book out called Backpack to Rucksack,
00:01:28.140 where you share insights on leadership and resilience that you learned in the military
00:01:32.560 and in your work in organizational psychology.
00:01:35.780 But before we talk about the book,
00:01:37.360 let's talk about your experience joining the Army,
00:01:39.820 because you did so at the age of 32,
00:01:43.300 which is unusually late in life.
00:01:45.080 A lot of guys aren't joining the Army at age 32.
00:01:47.360 So what's the age limit for joining the Army?
00:01:49.380 Were you pretty close to the upper end?
00:01:50.900 Yeah, so as a commissioned officer,
00:01:53.160 I needed to commission by the age of 33,
00:01:56.600 and I signed up at 32.
00:01:58.580 So the recruiter definitely had my back against the wall saying,
00:02:01.660 you either sign the contract or you're going to miss your window.
00:02:03.840 So I jumped in.
00:02:05.160 But yep, definitely pushed against that age limit.
00:02:07.780 For the Army, each branch has a different age limit,
00:02:10.120 but I tell people to, you know,
00:02:12.720 I receive a lot of questions from people asking if they're too old.
00:02:15.540 And I tell them always ask a recruiter
00:02:18.500 because those numbers do change depending on the needs
00:02:20.620 of the government, the military, what branches need.
00:02:24.000 So let's talk about your life before you joined.
00:02:25.600 And like, then what led you to signing up at age 32?
00:02:28.180 So what was going on before age 32?
00:02:30.200 So you're 18.
00:02:31.000 That's when most guys,
00:02:31.960 when they're thinking about joining the Army,
00:02:33.060 they join right out of high school or maybe in college.
00:02:36.000 What were you doing?
00:02:37.080 And then talk about what was going on
00:02:39.040 right before you joined at age 32.
00:02:42.100 Yeah, so I have a pretty unique story, I guess, to myself.
00:02:46.100 I worked in biotech for quite a while here in San Diego
00:02:49.840 and a lot of genetic research companies out here.
00:02:53.080 I've worked with companies that were genetically modifying
00:02:56.680 specific organisms to create industry,
00:03:00.460 new industry products, some wild stuff.
00:03:02.820 And it led into a job involving machine learning algorithms
00:03:06.780 and borderline AI back then, a few years back,
00:03:11.200 to basically enhance genetic codes to optimize genes
00:03:16.280 and snip out disease markers from humans, from animals.
00:03:22.140 A lot of really cool stuff happening.
00:03:23.820 But I was essentially working initially in the laboratory
00:03:27.760 and then I moved towards business development.
00:03:30.480 And what really pushed me to join the military
00:03:33.400 was when ISIS was actually attacking civilians
00:03:37.360 and the populace in Iraq.
00:03:38.980 My family is from there.
00:03:42.100 My parents escaped barely with their lives back in the 70s.
00:03:46.860 And I had a lot of friends that I made here in San Diego
00:03:49.480 who were on the SEAL teams,
00:03:51.620 different branches who were deploying to go fight those guys.
00:03:56.100 And as I was over here working in a world
00:03:59.460 where we were literally using computer software
00:04:02.520 to design genetic code and enhance the human species
00:04:06.000 in a way that's just absolutely mind-blowing.
00:04:09.620 My friends were in this primal fight in a war zone
00:04:13.440 that they had nothing to do with.
00:04:15.740 They were entering into that fight selflessly to go save people.
00:04:20.580 And they came back with these stories that were just,
00:04:23.240 they were literally fighting in the villages my parents grew up in.
00:04:26.260 And I felt this deep desire to put on a uniform
00:04:32.100 and contribute in any way possible.
00:04:34.480 I just felt it was my duty because America saved my family.
00:04:39.680 They gave us a place of refuge.
00:04:41.380 And that just really weighed heavy on me.
00:04:43.940 So as I'm working on my company,
00:04:46.300 I eventually started my own company
00:04:48.000 and was making pretty good money.
00:04:49.800 But then my friends would come back from these deployments
00:04:52.320 telling me about some of the stuff they got into.
00:04:54.920 And I just felt so compelled to let go of what I had here
00:05:00.040 and to join the military just to be able to tell myself
00:05:03.360 before I'm on my deathbed someday, like, hey, I did it.
00:05:08.880 And you also talk about in that book during that time
00:05:10.360 when you were working, you're working hard, making good money.
00:05:12.680 There's also a hint of you felt kind of restless.
00:05:16.120 There was drinking and you're hanging around
00:05:18.560 the wrong kind of crowd.
00:05:19.480 And you just felt like you weren't going anywhere either.
00:05:21.620 Yeah, so I, you know, especially if you're the child of,
00:05:26.880 say, immigrants and you grew up in the United States.
00:05:28.920 So, you know, I was born in the U.S.
00:05:30.600 My parents, like I said, they left Iraq in the 70s.
00:05:33.940 I was really trying to discover myself in a way here that,
00:05:39.680 yeah, it involved the wrong crowd for sure.
00:05:42.400 I got involved into what I thought was sort of popular behaviors,
00:05:46.880 a lot of drinking, and then that quickly moved into a crowd
00:05:51.220 that, you know, used drugs, partied pretty hard,
00:05:55.860 you know, play hard, work hard.
00:05:57.600 And I got caught up in a lifestyle where it was just,
00:06:01.080 it was driven sort of by, you know,
00:06:04.920 how cool people thought you were based on this persona.
00:06:08.280 And it felt, it was extremely superficial,
00:06:10.880 very high quantity, low quality with the relationships.
00:06:14.000 I made some good friends,
00:06:15.740 but it definitely didn't require discipline.
00:06:18.540 It just required showing up, getting drunk,
00:06:21.000 and trying to have as much fun as possible.
00:06:23.700 But when I started meeting friends in the military,
00:06:26.820 I noticed a stark contrast between their behaviors,
00:06:30.760 their level of discipline, their presence,
00:06:33.380 their physicality, how they approached life.
00:06:35.400 And I was drawn to their mindset.
00:06:39.260 They were super sharp, super driven,
00:06:41.520 and they definitely had goals far beyond,
00:06:44.380 you know, what I was doing,
00:06:46.000 which was just basically going from hangover to hangover.
00:06:48.460 And these guys were getting after it,
00:06:50.980 training all the time.
00:06:52.320 And it was really inspiring to me.
00:06:54.620 Okay, so you joined up at age 32.
00:06:56.440 Did you face any challenges joining at that age?
00:07:00.280 Honestly, no, I didn't.
00:07:02.400 You know, I have a lot of friends
00:07:03.640 who were in the military at the time.
00:07:06.020 And their number one piece of advice to me
00:07:08.920 was stay physically fit.
00:07:10.540 Because regardless of age,
00:07:12.680 when you show up, your body is,
00:07:15.000 it's your resume to the guys around you,
00:07:18.140 especially as an officer.
00:07:20.080 You know, people want to be led by somebody
00:07:21.860 who inspires them.
00:07:23.180 And when you show up in good shape physically,
00:07:25.460 and you can do the rucks,
00:07:26.680 you can do the runs, pull-ups, push-ups,
00:07:29.320 you know, everything that they test you in,
00:07:31.660 the guys are going to follow you.
00:07:32.880 They're going to want to be a part of your group.
00:07:36.140 And age was never an issue for me.
00:07:38.700 The biggest thing I was told
00:07:39.860 was to never use my age as a way
00:07:42.440 to talk down to anybody or be condescending.
00:07:45.700 Basically, if people wanted to tap
00:07:48.320 into whatever life wisdom I had,
00:07:50.500 then I would allow them to ask for that.
00:07:53.040 But I was definitely schooled on,
00:07:56.160 hey, just show up, keep your mouth shut,
00:07:57.900 be present, and just stay physically driven.
00:08:00.640 And that's going to motivate people.
00:08:02.480 So what did you end up doing in the Army?
00:08:04.500 I was a combat engineer.
00:08:06.100 So I was a platoon leader for 19 months.
00:08:09.500 It was a sapper platoon is what we call it.
00:08:11.620 And essentially, we would simulate combat exercises
00:08:14.620 with minefields and wire obstacles, tank ditches,
00:08:18.720 basically, you know, simulating
00:08:21.380 what World War III may look like.
00:08:24.020 So like, what advice would you give to older guys
00:08:26.280 who, you know, they keep thinking about,
00:08:28.260 you know, should I join the military?
00:08:29.420 What should I do? Am I too old?
00:08:30.940 What advice do you have for them?
00:08:31.900 Would you just recommend to just go for it?
00:08:34.240 Yeah, I mean, I definitely tell people
00:08:35.700 if you're thinking about it,
00:08:36.920 at least start training for it.
00:08:38.520 Because here's the thing,
00:08:39.860 even if you don't make it into the military,
00:08:41.700 the fact that you got up and trained yourself
00:08:44.080 and started running and started doing,
00:08:46.380 you know, the dieting and all of that,
00:08:48.240 that's required to just be at your top shape,
00:08:51.060 it will progress you
00:08:52.460 to becoming a better version of yourself.
00:08:54.600 So I don't see any downfall to pursuing that.
00:08:57.700 There's a lot of people that reach out to me saying,
00:09:00.040 hey, I don't know if I'm going to get cleared
00:09:01.260 for some medical things
00:09:02.660 or maybe some past, you know, criminal activity
00:09:05.200 or whatever it is that happened in their life.
00:09:07.000 And I say, you know, don't close the door on it.
00:09:10.120 There might be a recruiter out there
00:09:11.300 who's going to find a waiver
00:09:12.320 for whatever it is you're dealing with.
00:09:13.940 And don't ever let age
00:09:16.680 or any sort of negative self-thought hold you back.
00:09:20.300 Don't limit yourself.
00:09:21.480 And it's amazing to see what people have,
00:09:23.540 I mean, I've talked to guys
00:09:24.380 who've lost over a hundred pounds
00:09:26.080 just training for a military gig.
00:09:28.140 That's, it's phenomenal.
00:09:31.180 All right, so that's the big thing.
00:09:32.320 If you're older, just stay in shape.
00:09:33.900 Like if you're fit, they're going to take you
00:09:35.600 even if you're at that age limit.
00:09:38.160 Absolutely, yeah.
00:09:38.940 Fitness is like the number one thing
00:09:40.580 because you just,
00:09:41.380 you have to be able to pass those fitness tests.
00:09:43.580 Yeah, I think what I heard is that
00:09:45.120 it's something like 70% of young people
00:09:48.340 wouldn't be able to qualify for military service.
00:09:51.160 I've heard that.
00:09:51.940 And a lot of that is because of obesity.
00:09:54.280 Like that's why they're having recruiting problems.
00:09:56.640 So how did joining the army change your life?
00:09:58.220 And like, what are you doing now?
00:10:00.060 Well, so I'm out now.
00:10:02.540 I was in for three and a half years.
00:10:04.580 I'm actually thinking about signing another contract.
00:10:07.220 I have a MEPS appointment coming up
00:10:09.360 to go in and get medically screened again.
00:10:11.120 But being in the military really changed my life
00:10:14.220 in ways that I never thought.
00:10:15.800 I definitely was close to the troops.
00:10:19.040 I loved being around them.
00:10:20.940 It taught me a lot about leadership.
00:10:22.940 It taught me a lot about how to relate to others
00:10:25.460 in an organization that's just constantly
00:10:28.140 under high stress, high op tempo,
00:10:30.940 just back-to-back training.
00:10:32.880 It really left a mark on me that I didn't expect.
00:10:35.840 So I don't know what to say.
00:10:38.420 I could talk a lot about that.
00:10:40.500 And also while you were in the military,
00:10:41.760 you got your, that's where the work
00:10:43.520 in organizational psychology came in, correct?
00:10:46.420 Yeah.
00:10:46.820 So the lockdowns impacted a lot of our training.
00:10:49.860 And during the downtime, I thought to myself,
00:10:51.680 what can I do to optimize?
00:10:54.060 I didn't want to just survive the lockdowns.
00:10:56.000 I really wanted to thrive during the lockdown.
00:10:57.980 So I thought, well, work out three times a day,
00:11:01.520 don't drink a drop of alcohol,
00:11:03.480 and get a master's degree.
00:11:04.820 And I lived by that.
00:11:06.720 That was my day in and day out.
00:11:08.100 And I wanted to come out of the lockdowns
00:11:10.600 better than I ever was.
00:11:13.060 And getting the master's was eye-opening to me.
00:11:15.940 Because as I'm leading these soldiers,
00:11:17.860 as I'm seeing the impact of mental health,
00:11:20.440 as I'm talking to dudes that have been to war,
00:11:23.760 the first and second waves in Fallujah and Iraq,
00:11:26.080 and dealing with all these issues,
00:11:28.500 and I'm working with them,
00:11:29.600 I'm seeing the physiological response
00:11:31.700 of what happens to them at work
00:11:33.400 based on what they experienced.
00:11:35.780 Simultaneously, I'm writing these articles
00:11:37.120 and doing my research for my master's.
00:11:39.040 It was just an amazing connection
00:11:41.200 that I was realizing between the human brain,
00:11:44.280 interpersonal relationships,
00:11:45.660 organizational dynamics,
00:11:46.660 and it definitely added a lot of depth
00:11:49.560 to my understanding of what was going on.
00:11:51.660 When you got out of your initial contract,
00:11:53.640 did you go back to the corporate world
00:11:54.900 or what was going on then?
00:11:56.840 So that was actually pretty recent,
00:11:58.240 like a few months ago.
00:11:58.940 So I'm currently working on another master's degree
00:12:01.700 and I can tell you that I'm 36 now
00:12:05.420 and I can tell you that all the training
00:12:07.340 I did in the military left,
00:12:09.960 it put a fire in me.
00:12:11.540 I'm in the best shape of my life right now
00:12:13.140 and I cannot sit still.
00:12:14.680 I mean, I'm working out multiple workouts a day,
00:12:17.900 still doing ruck runs,
00:12:19.260 still staying physically active.
00:12:20.980 And I thought that when I got out of the military,
00:12:23.640 I would be totally okay
00:12:25.600 with a much more sedentary life,
00:12:27.540 you know, back into an office environment.
00:12:30.880 And that's, yeah,
00:12:32.140 that's definitely not what happened.
00:12:33.300 It's really shocking to me.
00:12:34.620 So I'm currently doing some training
00:12:36.720 with a group of guys
00:12:39.020 that are working on some amazing pipelines
00:12:42.240 in the military.
00:12:42.760 They have some tough pipelines ahead of them
00:12:44.640 and I'm working side by side with them right now
00:12:46.600 at the gym, doing some runs with them.
00:12:49.300 And they're motivating me a lot more
00:12:51.160 than I thought I could ever be motivated.
00:12:53.060 So that's why I'm kind of looking
00:12:55.520 into some additional contracts
00:12:56.840 in the next few months, actually.
00:12:59.360 All right, so let's talk about your book.
00:13:00.420 So Backpack to Rucksack,
00:13:01.880 what you did is, you know,
00:13:03.460 leading up to you trying to figure out
00:13:05.280 whether you're going to sign up with the army
00:13:06.780 and also during that time
00:13:08.300 when you're going through the process
00:13:09.720 of training and whatnot,
00:13:11.540 you had a lot of military friends
00:13:12.880 and that you were talking to them,
00:13:14.480 asking them for advice.
00:13:15.360 Like, what do I need to know
00:13:16.560 when I'm going through this process
00:13:18.140 and becoming a commissioned officer?
00:13:19.880 How do I handle this situation?
00:13:21.320 And what you did in the book
00:13:23.060 is you shared these insights
00:13:24.400 you got from these various friends of yours
00:13:26.840 in the military,
00:13:27.480 from all branches of the military.
00:13:29.620 And then you combine that
00:13:30.660 with your research that you've done
00:13:32.680 in organizational psychology.
00:13:35.080 And so each chapter highlights
00:13:36.820 a different concept or topic.
00:13:38.780 And in the first part of the book,
00:13:40.500 the first chapter,
00:13:41.180 you talk about this bit of advice
00:13:42.640 you got from,
00:13:43.600 I think it was a Green Beret friend of yours,
00:13:45.500 about pursuing attrition in life,
00:13:48.700 but also in the military world.
00:13:50.600 What did he mean by that?
00:13:52.600 So his advice was to pursue pipelines
00:13:57.260 in the military that people complained about.
00:13:59.700 Pursue, basically his philosophy
00:14:02.480 is that any route you want to take in life
00:14:04.540 that other people are afraid of
00:14:06.320 or that they're being just really critical
00:14:08.420 or negative about,
00:14:10.000 it's a filtration mechanism.
00:14:12.240 It'll stop the wrong people from pursuing it
00:14:15.440 and it'll filter for the stronger candidates.
00:14:18.760 And he was just saying,
00:14:20.640 make sure that when you join the military,
00:14:24.960 if you do want to find a group of brothers
00:14:27.660 around yourself
00:14:28.600 that are just operating at a level
00:14:31.420 that is far beyond
00:14:34.580 your own perceived limitations,
00:14:36.920 you need to go down some hard paths
00:14:39.640 that remove the guys who just tap out early.
00:14:43.100 And he said, next thing you know,
00:14:45.460 you'll be rubbing elbows
00:14:46.380 with other people that are like-minded
00:14:48.480 who sort of keep their mouth shut
00:14:50.800 and just work really hard.
00:14:52.640 And this is applicable outside the military too,
00:14:54.680 in work, in your physical fitness.
00:14:56.700 If you want to rub elbows
00:14:58.800 with the best top-notch individuals,
00:15:01.680 do the hard stuff
00:15:02.800 because that's going to filter out
00:15:04.460 all the riffraff.
00:15:06.380 Essentially, that was exactly
00:15:07.980 how he approached life.
00:15:09.540 Yep.
00:15:10.200 So let's talk about another concept
00:15:11.780 you learned from a friend of yours
00:15:13.760 who's a Marine named Will.
00:15:15.700 And he taught you the importance
00:15:17.300 of command climate.
00:15:19.200 What is command climate?
00:15:21.440 Essentially, it's culture.
00:15:23.180 It's work culture.
00:15:24.180 In the military,
00:15:25.140 it's really unique
00:15:26.300 because the person at the top
00:15:28.120 in whatever unit you're looking at
00:15:30.020 tends to,
00:15:30.680 they set the temperature
00:15:31.560 for the entire unit.
00:15:33.640 So if you have someone
00:15:35.160 who is super physical
00:15:37.440 and super into fitness,
00:15:38.760 you'll see that
00:15:40.160 everyone below them,
00:15:41.680 all the subordinates,
00:15:42.680 suddenly begin to really invest
00:15:44.260 in fitness.
00:15:44.840 They suddenly become
00:15:45.700 really gym-oriented.
00:15:48.080 But on the converse side of that,
00:15:49.320 let's say you have someone
00:15:50.300 who is really negative
00:15:51.440 and really,
00:15:52.540 you know,
00:15:53.360 it's an overused word,
00:15:54.580 but if,
00:15:55.200 you know,
00:15:55.340 they say they're toxic
00:15:56.120 or, you know,
00:15:56.880 have certain insecurities
00:15:58.800 or they have a shame-based
00:16:00.160 orientation
00:16:00.860 towards their leadership style,
00:16:02.200 you'll see people below them
00:16:03.480 begin to treat others
00:16:04.680 the same way.
00:16:05.460 And you can't really change
00:16:08.080 command climate
00:16:08.860 in the military.
00:16:10.080 You can't walk into a unit
00:16:11.360 and go up to somebody
00:16:13.000 at that rank
00:16:13.560 and say,
00:16:14.220 hey, sir,
00:16:15.180 hey, ma'am,
00:16:15.600 I need you to conduct
00:16:17.140 yourself differently
00:16:17.920 so we can all experience
00:16:19.500 a whole different climate.
00:16:20.820 What you get
00:16:21.380 is what you get.
00:16:22.320 And Will's advice was
00:16:23.740 you got to make the most of it.
00:16:25.280 If it's bad,
00:16:26.100 it's going to be bad,
00:16:27.220 but you got to just
00:16:28.560 figure out how to handle it
00:16:30.100 until that leader leaves
00:16:31.440 and you get someone new.
00:16:32.880 And if it's good,
00:16:33.620 then definitely count
00:16:35.160 your blessings
00:16:35.680 and just you're going
00:16:37.060 to have a blast
00:16:37.940 in the job for sure.
00:16:38.920 They're going to make
00:16:39.360 the job awesome.
00:16:40.700 Did you have any experiences
00:16:41.660 of really bad
00:16:43.600 command climate
00:16:44.520 in the corporate world
00:16:45.440 or the military?
00:16:47.120 I mean, definitely.
00:16:47.780 I've seen good and bad.
00:16:49.180 I mean,
00:16:49.340 as we all have,
00:16:50.660 I'm sure,
00:16:51.240 you know,
00:16:51.560 so definitely have seen
00:16:53.200 the impact of it.
00:16:54.260 And what's astounding
00:16:56.100 to me
00:16:56.740 is the way
00:16:58.700 in which it compounds
00:17:00.080 the stress around us
00:17:02.000 because,
00:17:02.620 you know,
00:17:03.380 I tell people
00:17:04.720 attack problem sets.
00:17:06.740 Don't attack people.
00:17:07.980 If something sucks,
00:17:08.900 if something needs
00:17:09.440 to be enhanced
00:17:10.160 or optimized
00:17:10.820 or modified,
00:17:11.740 whatever it is,
00:17:12.640 the military
00:17:13.140 and the corporate world,
00:17:14.560 look at the problem
00:17:15.460 set before you.
00:17:16.740 You don't have
00:17:17.160 to make it personal.
00:17:18.060 You don't have
00:17:18.300 to bring emotions
00:17:19.120 into it
00:17:19.820 and attack others
00:17:21.420 and involve ego.
00:17:23.040 So what I've seen
00:17:24.000 good leaders do
00:17:24.900 is when there is
00:17:26.100 an issue
00:17:26.500 that needs to be addressed,
00:17:28.220 they are enablers
00:17:29.380 of people.
00:17:30.040 They enable subordinates.
00:17:31.160 They enable
00:17:31.700 everyone around them
00:17:33.420 to find solutions.
00:17:35.520 And if you fail,
00:17:36.380 then okay,
00:17:37.120 so be it.
00:17:37.700 But pick yourself up
00:17:38.560 and find the next solution
00:17:39.700 that'll work,
00:17:40.440 you know,
00:17:41.060 own it and make it great.
00:17:42.820 Figure out a way
00:17:43.360 to make the situation better.
00:17:45.100 But what I've noticed
00:17:46.060 toxic leaders will do
00:17:48.060 is they will have
00:17:49.300 a more fixed mindset
00:17:51.140 as Carol Dweck
00:17:51.960 talks about growth
00:17:52.880 versus fixed mindset.
00:17:54.320 They'll sort of approach
00:17:55.200 the situation as,
00:17:56.840 hey,
00:17:56.940 nothing's going to change.
00:17:57.980 This is the way it is.
00:17:59.620 You know,
00:17:59.860 shut up and fall in line.
00:18:00.940 I don't care
00:18:01.560 what your opinion is.
00:18:02.600 I don't care
00:18:02.940 what data you have
00:18:04.020 from your perspective.
00:18:05.900 I don't see
00:18:06.840 a viable solution
00:18:07.840 and I don't care
00:18:08.760 that you think
00:18:09.620 there is one.
00:18:10.580 Just carry on,
00:18:11.940 keep everything
00:18:12.460 status quo
00:18:13.120 how it is
00:18:13.660 and it's stifling.
00:18:15.620 And it's not
00:18:16.580 just on the job.
00:18:17.780 We take it home
00:18:18.480 with us.
00:18:19.460 It follows us home.
00:18:20.620 That stress,
00:18:21.380 that level of,
00:18:22.580 that feeling
00:18:23.340 of not having a voice.
00:18:24.720 It's really repressive
00:18:25.720 and it feeds a lot
00:18:28.160 into the personality
00:18:28.800 of the leader.
00:18:29.620 So again,
00:18:30.280 if it's a great leader,
00:18:31.200 if there's somebody
00:18:31.780 who's open-minded,
00:18:33.460 you'll feel that.
00:18:34.580 There will be
00:18:35.420 a sense of levity
00:18:36.620 even amidst
00:18:38.140 highly stressed,
00:18:39.400 stressful conversations
00:18:40.440 or situations.
00:18:42.140 And one thing
00:18:42.640 I will say,
00:18:43.720 there was an EOD
00:18:45.380 that talked to us
00:18:46.560 about his experience
00:18:48.780 in Iraq.
00:18:49.880 There was a guy
00:18:50.300 that got blown up
00:18:51.080 and there was a body
00:18:52.880 on the ground
00:18:53.440 and I mean,
00:18:55.000 definitely the dude
00:18:56.880 was jacked up
00:18:57.580 and the medic
00:18:58.960 started panicking
00:19:00.160 and the EOD
00:19:03.020 ran up to him
00:19:04.260 because in those situations,
00:19:05.940 the medic takes control,
00:19:07.220 right?
00:19:07.380 Takes over.
00:19:08.460 A lot of the guys
00:19:09.360 who survived the blast
00:19:10.700 were looking
00:19:11.520 at the medic
00:19:12.560 starting to,
00:19:13.880 to,
00:19:14.660 to,
00:19:14.980 you know,
00:19:15.420 lose control.
00:19:16.840 So this EOD
00:19:17.380 ran up to him
00:19:18.260 and grabbed him
00:19:19.080 and said,
00:19:19.460 look, man,
00:19:20.040 I need you to take a breath
00:19:21.900 and I need you
00:19:23.480 to focus.
00:19:24.600 Do what you can
00:19:25.220 to save this guy.
00:19:26.600 If you can't,
00:19:27.800 fine,
00:19:28.320 but do what you can,
00:19:29.340 but everyone's
00:19:29.980 watching you right now.
00:19:31.220 And what he was telling us
00:19:32.620 as new officers,
00:19:33.620 he said,
00:19:34.160 look,
00:19:34.820 your attitude
00:19:35.480 is everything
00:19:36.520 in the military
00:19:37.120 because calm
00:19:38.200 is contagious
00:19:38.940 just the same way
00:19:40.360 that panic
00:19:40.920 is contagious.
00:19:42.460 So whatever type
00:19:43.280 of leader
00:19:43.680 you're going to be,
00:19:44.920 the men around you,
00:19:46.000 the women around you
00:19:46.800 are going to pick up
00:19:47.780 on that.
00:19:48.740 So be sure to lead
00:19:49.940 and conduct yourself
00:19:51.280 in a way
00:19:51.980 that you want
00:19:53.640 other people
00:19:54.500 to pick up
00:19:55.180 because good or bad,
00:19:56.220 they will pick up
00:19:57.280 on whatever vibe
00:19:59.040 you're putting out
00:19:59.820 into the unit.
00:20:01.520 Okay.
00:20:01.580 So yeah,
00:20:01.880 in order to be a leader
00:20:02.940 that creates
00:20:03.860 a good command climate,
00:20:05.560 it's just,
00:20:06.000 it's a lot of self-work,
00:20:07.360 right?
00:20:07.600 It's working to learn
00:20:08.780 how to control your emotions,
00:20:10.000 working on your own discipline,
00:20:11.680 working on those social
00:20:13.060 and people skills,
00:20:14.000 those soft skills.
00:20:14.860 It's a full-time job.
00:20:16.260 It's not just
00:20:16.640 something that happens.
00:20:17.540 It's something
00:20:17.820 you have to be
00:20:18.140 intentional about.
00:20:19.640 Absolutely.
00:20:20.240 And I learned that
00:20:21.000 in the corporate world.
00:20:21.980 When I started
00:20:22.460 my own business,
00:20:23.240 I had a mentor,
00:20:25.180 George.
00:20:26.040 He's like a father figure
00:20:27.160 to me.
00:20:27.600 And, you know,
00:20:27.960 I was struggling
00:20:28.820 with some high-power
00:20:30.880 executives that were,
00:20:32.800 I was in some negotiations
00:20:34.080 that were just
00:20:35.000 absolutely intimidating
00:20:36.120 to me.
00:20:36.740 And George
00:20:37.120 pulled me aside
00:20:38.460 in sort of a
00:20:39.700 coaching seminar
00:20:41.080 that we had together,
00:20:42.000 a discussion we had.
00:20:42.860 And he let me know.
00:20:44.200 He said,
00:20:44.460 look,
00:20:44.780 basically the man
00:20:45.760 that you are privately,
00:20:46.960 it's going to come out
00:20:48.620 in the room
00:20:49.260 when you negotiate.
00:20:50.340 And he said,
00:20:51.020 these other men
00:20:51.880 you're dealing with
00:20:52.420 are sharks.
00:20:53.100 I mean,
00:20:53.260 if they smell blood
00:20:54.140 in the water,
00:20:54.680 you're dead.
00:20:55.320 They're going to tear you
00:20:55.920 to pieces
00:20:56.320 in a negotiation.
00:20:57.860 So he said,
00:20:58.800 you got to work
00:20:59.540 on yourself.
00:21:00.540 You got to know
00:21:01.300 who you are
00:21:02.140 outside of the business world,
00:21:04.220 outside of the office,
00:21:05.540 who you are privately.
00:21:06.920 When you put your head
00:21:07.880 on the pillow at night,
00:21:08.700 when you look in the mirror,
00:21:10.020 who are you?
00:21:11.240 Once you figure out
00:21:12.260 who you are
00:21:12.920 and you have a grasp on that
00:21:15.120 and you ground yourself
00:21:16.320 in that,
00:21:17.380 you can then approach
00:21:18.440 the negotiations
00:21:19.500 with that level of confidence
00:21:21.200 that is going to allow you
00:21:22.640 to have better leverage.
00:21:24.220 And other people
00:21:24.820 will not take advantage of you.
00:21:26.700 Situations that suck
00:21:27.860 won't take advantage of you.
00:21:29.140 They won't change you.
00:21:30.400 You will bring light
00:21:31.600 into that dark situation.
00:21:33.600 And that was one
00:21:35.000 of the most profound
00:21:35.740 pieces of information
00:21:36.680 I received
00:21:37.200 because I realized
00:21:39.080 that if I don't work
00:21:41.200 on myself,
00:21:42.240 the guys around me
00:21:43.360 are going to suffer.
00:21:44.540 My ego issues,
00:21:45.640 my insecurities,
00:21:46.960 my personal private hangups
00:21:49.260 are going to come out
00:21:50.760 at work
00:21:51.340 in the way that I speak
00:21:52.280 to others
00:21:52.760 and the way that I treat others.
00:21:54.580 And then all of a sudden
00:21:55.360 they have to manage
00:21:56.200 my emotions for me.
00:21:58.240 And the job's stressful enough,
00:21:59.760 especially in the military.
00:22:01.620 Training can be life and death.
00:22:03.620 And if I'm bringing
00:22:04.340 my own ego issues
00:22:05.360 and the guys around me
00:22:06.520 have to manage that,
00:22:08.620 man, I'm doing them
00:22:10.080 a disservice.
00:22:10.940 So yeah, absolutely.
00:22:13.040 I encourage every leader,
00:22:14.540 pick up books,
00:22:15.900 read, study yourself
00:22:17.140 because you're going
00:22:17.880 to benefit the organization.
00:22:19.260 You're going to benefit
00:22:19.800 your relationships,
00:22:20.820 your marriages,
00:22:21.580 your relationship
00:22:22.100 with your kids.
00:22:23.500 Everything will benefit
00:22:24.460 when you grow yourself
00:22:25.600 privately and personally.
00:22:28.300 We're going to take
00:22:28.560 a quick break
00:22:28.940 for a word from our sponsors.
00:22:30.000 And now back
00:22:35.560 to the show.
00:22:36.680 So in the military,
00:22:38.020 you have to deal
00:22:38.600 with all sorts of personalities,
00:22:40.060 especially big personalities.
00:22:42.580 Did you have any experience
00:22:43.740 dealing with
00:22:44.200 some difficult people
00:22:45.320 with big egos
00:22:46.420 when you were
00:22:46.940 in the military?
00:22:48.640 Yeah, I mean,
00:22:49.100 the,
00:22:50.180 you know,
00:22:50.680 it's common to see people,
00:22:52.820 and again,
00:22:53.180 this happens
00:22:53.580 in any organization,
00:22:54.620 but when you see someone
00:22:56.200 use their rank
00:22:57.200 as a way of
00:22:58.420 trying to stifle others,
00:23:00.640 trying to
00:23:01.840 sort of
00:23:02.920 demand control.
00:23:04.500 In psychology,
00:23:05.340 they call that
00:23:05.940 positional authority.
00:23:07.780 You can have
00:23:08.360 moral authority,
00:23:09.320 you can have
00:23:09.780 positional authority.
00:23:11.240 Moral basically means
00:23:12.320 when you walk in a room,
00:23:14.140 regardless of rank people,
00:23:15.420 they trust you.
00:23:16.180 They know that you know things.
00:23:17.440 They see that confidence in you.
00:23:18.860 Positional authority
00:23:19.620 means,
00:23:20.480 hey,
00:23:21.140 do you know who I am?
00:23:22.100 Do you know where I am
00:23:22.920 on the hierarchy?
00:23:23.800 Okay, cool.
00:23:24.400 So follow mine.
00:23:25.420 You know,
00:23:25.540 they rely on their rank
00:23:27.160 and yeah,
00:23:28.300 I mean,
00:23:28.480 I've seen that
00:23:29.340 and I've had to
00:23:30.860 manage that.
00:23:32.080 Absolutely.
00:23:33.140 Did you have any
00:23:33.740 military friends
00:23:34.520 who gave you any advice
00:23:35.620 on what to do
00:23:36.400 with those big egos?
00:23:37.660 People who were trying
00:23:38.200 to use,
00:23:38.720 you know,
00:23:39.520 their positional authority
00:23:40.500 to get things
00:23:42.040 the way they wanted?
00:23:44.320 Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:45.160 So one of the biggest
00:23:46.380 piece of advice on that
00:23:47.400 was my buddy Brad,
00:23:48.280 who's an EOD commander now,
00:23:50.800 but he was deployed
00:23:51.520 in Afghanistan
00:23:52.160 and he told me
00:23:53.960 about some situations
00:23:54.740 where guys,
00:23:55.500 you know,
00:23:55.720 would try to pull rank
00:23:56.580 and he would let them know,
00:23:58.180 I mean,
00:23:58.440 and this would happen
00:23:59.100 in the battlefield
00:23:59.680 as he's dealing
00:24:00.920 with an IED
00:24:01.540 and he had to tell people
00:24:02.940 of some people
00:24:03.860 of very high rank
00:24:04.660 to shut up
00:24:05.800 and sit down
00:24:06.440 because if they continue
00:24:07.600 to distract him,
00:24:08.680 there could be fallout
00:24:10.700 that'll kill
00:24:11.220 everybody around them.
00:24:12.320 So what he taught me
00:24:14.340 was when you know
00:24:16.640 something is correct,
00:24:18.380 there's a way
00:24:19.140 to present it
00:24:19.960 to somebody
00:24:20.520 who's in authority
00:24:21.600 with a respectful attitude
00:24:25.340 yet assertive.
00:24:27.500 Assertion is really important
00:24:28.680 when you know
00:24:29.500 something is right.
00:24:31.020 So it is important
00:24:32.180 to stand by what you know.
00:24:34.080 However,
00:24:35.320 depending on what personality
00:24:36.820 you're dealing with,
00:24:37.760 you got to manage it
00:24:38.780 in a way that
00:24:39.220 they will be receptive to it
00:24:40.620 and at that point
00:24:42.840 it's really dependent
00:24:44.600 on the person
00:24:45.460 that you're dealing with
00:24:46.460 because sometimes
00:24:47.200 direct is the best approach.
00:24:48.540 Other times
00:24:49.040 you got to stroke
00:24:50.120 their ego a bit.
00:24:51.140 You got to find a way
00:24:52.700 to,
00:24:53.440 I don't want to say
00:24:54.280 play the politics of it
00:24:55.940 because that can get
00:24:56.420 really dirty
00:24:56.980 but you got to find a way
00:24:58.920 to get them
00:25:00.360 to have an open mind
00:25:01.320 and this is where,
00:25:04.060 I mean,
00:25:04.220 I could talk for days
00:25:05.260 about this
00:25:05.820 but this is something
00:25:06.560 we learn in jujitsu
00:25:07.600 as well.
00:25:08.440 We call it
00:25:08.980 working the angles
00:25:10.340 basically.
00:25:11.900 Jiu-jitsu is all about
00:25:12.600 having the right angle.
00:25:14.140 Approaching leadership dynamics,
00:25:15.820 it's the same way.
00:25:17.060 Certain leaders,
00:25:17.880 again,
00:25:18.300 hit them head on.
00:25:19.200 They'll respect that.
00:25:20.020 They'll respond to it.
00:25:21.400 Other leaders,
00:25:22.180 you can't do that
00:25:22.840 because once you do it,
00:25:24.160 it's fight mode
00:25:24.980 and the discussions
00:25:26.980 completely derailed.
00:25:28.840 Yeah,
00:25:29.020 you gave some examples
00:25:29.660 in the book of,
00:25:30.660 I think when you were
00:25:31.140 in basic training,
00:25:32.500 you had some guys
00:25:33.280 who were kind of
00:25:33.900 big dogging,
00:25:34.660 right?
00:25:34.780 They just kind of,
00:25:35.920 they kind of walked around
00:25:37.120 like they were the stuff,
00:25:38.440 right?
00:25:38.600 They had the stuff
00:25:39.340 and they were just annoying
00:25:40.320 and they would do
00:25:41.660 these things
00:25:41.980 where they kind of
00:25:42.400 confront you
00:25:43.100 and try to assert
00:25:44.560 themselves over you
00:25:46.660 in the dominance hierarchy
00:25:47.880 and you talked about
00:25:49.340 how you're really tempted
00:25:50.160 to just,
00:25:50.760 I'm going to punch back
00:25:52.300 or I'm going to push back,
00:25:53.220 I'm going to get angry
00:25:53.780 about it
00:25:54.320 but like you said,
00:25:55.060 you did some like
00:25:55.660 psychological jujitsu
00:25:57.080 on these guys
00:25:58.700 to,
00:25:59.660 instead of them being enemies
00:26:01.060 or a liability,
00:26:01.940 they actually ended up
00:26:02.500 being an asset.
00:26:03.300 What did you do
00:26:03.980 to turn those guys
00:26:05.060 from,
00:26:05.860 you weren't best friends
00:26:06.660 with them
00:26:06.920 but they became guys
00:26:07.840 who you could,
00:26:09.200 who you could collaborate
00:26:10.340 with and get things done?
00:26:12.240 Yeah,
00:26:12.500 I think in retrospect
00:26:13.880 maybe they were trying
00:26:14.540 to size me up
00:26:15.280 to see if,
00:26:16.000 you know,
00:26:16.480 if I would stand up
00:26:17.820 for myself
00:26:18.380 and in any case
00:26:19.260 I was very direct
00:26:20.620 when I approached them,
00:26:21.720 you know,
00:26:21.900 I maintained eye contact,
00:26:24.360 I was very direct
00:26:25.600 but I also did it privately.
00:26:27.440 I didn't do it in a way,
00:26:28.840 so they would,
00:26:29.540 there was a situation
00:26:30.140 where I was being called out
00:26:31.420 in front of the,
00:26:32.880 the entire platoon
00:26:35.040 and this was in training,
00:26:36.400 not my actual platoon
00:26:37.540 but back in,
00:26:38.560 in the schoolhouse
00:26:39.420 and so what I decided
00:26:41.280 to do is,
00:26:42.760 you know,
00:26:43.020 control my heart rate,
00:26:43.980 control my breathing.
00:26:44.800 It's the same way
00:26:45.340 like on the mats
00:26:46.260 when I'm getting smashed
00:26:47.200 by one of the black belts
00:26:48.200 that I train with.
00:26:49.100 I need to gain
00:26:50.120 physiological control
00:26:51.160 of my body,
00:26:52.540 calm myself down
00:26:53.500 and then what I did
00:26:54.560 is I directly approached
00:26:55.900 one of these individuals
00:26:56.880 and I let them know,
00:26:58.320 hey,
00:26:58.440 we're going to have
00:26:58.900 a conversation about this
00:27:00.040 but it's,
00:27:00.580 again,
00:27:00.880 it's not going to be emotional.
00:27:02.500 This is just going to be
00:27:03.400 man to man,
00:27:04.520 we're just going to have
00:27:05.120 a quick talk about this
00:27:06.280 and he quickly realized
00:27:09.500 that I wasn't there
00:27:11.140 to start a fight.
00:27:12.600 I was there to learn.
00:27:13.440 I let him know that.
00:27:14.160 I said,
00:27:14.420 look,
00:27:14.660 you know,
00:27:14.900 I know I'm new.
00:27:16.240 I know you've been
00:27:16.660 in the military for a while.
00:27:18.120 I'm not here
00:27:18.940 to be disrespectful.
00:27:20.200 I'm not here
00:27:21.200 to flex on anyone.
00:27:23.400 I'm here to learn.
00:27:24.480 So if you have something
00:27:25.200 to teach me,
00:27:25.940 I'm all ears
00:27:26.560 but I'm not going to play
00:27:27.960 this game of,
00:27:28.940 you know,
00:27:29.660 one-upmanship.
00:27:30.640 That's just not how I roll
00:27:31.700 and I learned that
00:27:33.880 because of my high school friend,
00:27:35.440 Tim,
00:27:35.860 who introduced me
00:27:36.860 to jiu-jitsu.
00:27:37.860 He told me that
00:27:39.000 if you're ever dealing
00:27:39.760 with somebody
00:27:40.320 who just absolutely
00:27:42.240 wants to tear you
00:27:43.280 to pieces on the mat
00:27:44.260 and wants to smash
00:27:45.340 your face into the mat,
00:27:46.980 you need to tell them,
00:27:48.500 I'm not here to fight.
00:27:49.680 I'm here to learn.
00:27:51.160 So if you're here to fight,
00:27:52.420 that's not why I'm here.
00:27:54.080 And it really has
00:27:55.680 tremendously
00:27:57.020 had an impact
00:27:58.260 on the mats.
00:27:58.900 So I started taking
00:28:00.140 that principle
00:28:00.620 into the military
00:28:01.360 and it had the same impact.
00:28:03.080 It was amazing.
00:28:04.220 All right.
00:28:04.300 So yeah,
00:28:04.500 be direct,
00:28:05.180 do it in private.
00:28:06.100 You can be assertive
00:28:06.840 but not a jerk about it.
00:28:08.460 I think that's the key.
00:28:09.680 Let's talk about
00:28:10.480 the politics
00:28:11.200 of military life.
00:28:12.240 So you mentioned that
00:28:12.840 the military can be political
00:28:14.700 and by political,
00:28:16.280 we mean that
00:28:16.700 you do,
00:28:17.800 it's people who do
00:28:18.820 and say things
00:28:19.600 whatever it takes
00:28:20.560 to advance their career.
00:28:22.620 But you talk about,
00:28:23.380 you learned this
00:28:23.760 from your military buddies
00:28:24.560 that politics can get
00:28:25.660 in the way of effectiveness.
00:28:26.940 How so?
00:28:27.340 So and again,
00:28:29.780 this is highly applicable
00:28:30.680 to the corporate world,
00:28:31.980 to any organization.
00:28:33.440 Some people will
00:28:34.680 use their rank
00:28:36.160 and authority
00:28:36.720 to get their agenda done.
00:28:38.620 Whatever their agenda is,
00:28:39.700 usually I'd say
00:28:40.480 to promote their own
00:28:41.460 sort of resume.
00:28:42.940 But they'll do so
00:28:43.700 at the expense
00:28:44.460 of the well-being
00:28:45.340 of those around them
00:28:46.320 not wanting to hear
00:28:47.760 about inconvenient pieces
00:28:49.140 of information
00:28:49.860 about the organization.
00:28:51.060 But that can
00:28:51.560 quickly get dark.
00:28:53.220 So what's really important
00:28:56.560 and the advice I received
00:28:57.760 is listen to the people
00:28:59.120 around you.
00:28:59.820 Give everybody a voice
00:29:01.400 so you know
00:29:02.540 what exactly
00:29:03.740 needs to be improved
00:29:04.940 to help others.
00:29:06.300 And any rank
00:29:07.220 that as you rank up,
00:29:09.460 the higher rank
00:29:10.300 you get,
00:29:11.380 the more people you serve.
00:29:12.760 It's not the other way around.
00:29:14.660 Because a lot of people
00:29:15.500 commonly think
00:29:16.580 that with more rank
00:29:18.260 and more authority,
00:29:19.660 you have more power
00:29:20.600 over more people.
00:29:21.440 But if you look at it inversely,
00:29:23.820 it really helps
00:29:25.520 add a healthier context
00:29:27.400 to the relationship.
00:29:28.940 The more rank you have,
00:29:30.180 the higher up you are,
00:29:31.500 the more people
00:29:32.340 you are actually serving
00:29:34.120 as a leader.
00:29:35.680 And the way you serve
00:29:36.660 those people,
00:29:37.940 and I get it,
00:29:38.820 you can't have
00:29:39.920 a perfect solution
00:29:40.700 that everybody's happy with.
00:29:42.500 But the more conversations
00:29:43.840 you have,
00:29:44.940 the more incremental improvements
00:29:46.340 you can have
00:29:46.880 throughout the organization
00:29:47.860 by removing red tape
00:29:50.560 wherever you can
00:29:51.320 remove red tape,
00:29:52.680 allowing people
00:29:53.520 to get the schools
00:29:56.180 that they want to get,
00:29:57.340 to work towards
00:29:58.020 the credentials,
00:29:58.840 to pursue the education
00:29:59.940 they need,
00:30:00.460 to have time
00:30:00.980 with their family,
00:30:01.720 with their kids,
00:30:02.660 if they need medical help,
00:30:04.120 whatever it is,
00:30:05.440 just allowing rank
00:30:07.140 to be used
00:30:07.920 to improve the unit
00:30:09.780 and not to just demand
00:30:11.740 sort of respect
00:30:13.180 authoritatively.
00:30:14.300 So take a servant
00:30:15.820 leadership approach
00:30:16.880 instead of thinking about,
00:30:18.820 well, how can I advance
00:30:19.760 the hierarchy
00:30:20.200 and improve my own
00:30:22.020 status and rank?
00:30:23.720 Right.
00:30:24.540 Yeah.
00:30:24.900 And for a book,
00:30:25.980 I don't know if you've
00:30:26.540 read this book,
00:30:27.460 it's a great book
00:30:28.120 that highlights
00:30:28.660 the difference
00:30:29.060 between a military leader
00:30:30.720 who is very political
00:30:31.840 and one who has
00:30:33.140 that servant leadership
00:30:34.160 approach.
00:30:34.800 It's Once an Eagle.
00:30:36.080 Have you read this book?
00:30:37.740 So that book
00:30:38.620 is definitely the Bible
00:30:39.720 to a lot of my friends.
00:30:40.800 Yeah.
00:30:41.440 No, so it was written
00:30:43.040 in 1968.
00:30:43.740 It follows these two officers
00:30:46.040 from World War I
00:30:47.880 through Vietnam.
00:30:49.880 One guy is Sam Damon,
00:30:52.220 career army officer.
00:30:53.680 Started off as a private
00:30:54.660 and then he rose up
00:30:56.300 to general officer rank
00:30:57.680 and he was honorable.
00:30:59.340 Like he was all
00:30:59.840 about his soldiers.
00:31:00.880 He was like the epitome.
00:31:02.100 Like he was the guy.
00:31:03.060 And then the other guy
00:31:04.280 who was the more
00:31:04.980 political officer
00:31:06.460 was this guy
00:31:06.940 named Courtney Massengill.
00:31:08.560 No honor,
00:31:09.380 had no concern
00:31:10.000 for his troops.
00:31:10.540 All he cared about
00:31:11.320 was going up in the rank
00:31:13.180 and it's a great,
00:31:14.460 it's a great book
00:31:15.200 if you want.
00:31:15.600 It's a beast of a book
00:31:16.820 but a lot of great lessons
00:31:18.160 on leadership,
00:31:18.960 especially about
00:31:19.480 that dichotomy
00:31:20.220 between being
00:31:21.400 a political leader
00:31:22.160 and a servant leadership
00:31:23.560 type leader.
00:31:25.900 Definitely.
00:31:26.600 We've had a lot of talks
00:31:27.640 about that book.
00:31:28.460 Yep.
00:31:29.360 So a lot of the advice
00:31:30.400 in the book
00:31:30.800 is about just how
00:31:31.800 to stay calm, right?
00:31:33.140 Even when things
00:31:33.880 are going just crazy
00:31:35.060 around you.
00:31:36.180 What was some
00:31:36.820 of the best advice
00:31:37.420 you got from your
00:31:37.940 military buddies
00:31:38.660 on staying calm
00:31:39.940 during chaos?
00:31:42.360 I mean,
00:31:42.720 essentially,
00:31:43.600 just have
00:31:45.000 an awareness
00:31:46.420 of your physiological
00:31:47.160 response
00:31:48.060 to kind of zero
00:31:49.420 out your own
00:31:51.120 emotional impact
00:31:53.400 in a situation
00:31:54.240 because,
00:31:55.660 you know,
00:31:56.700 oftentimes
00:31:57.180 when,
00:31:59.040 let's say,
00:31:59.440 a mission set
00:32:00.200 suddenly changes,
00:32:01.060 so we have
00:32:02.540 a movement,
00:32:03.180 we're trying
00:32:03.480 to get the convoy
00:32:04.300 from one location
00:32:05.360 to another
00:32:05.940 and everybody's
00:32:07.180 been briefed on it
00:32:08.080 and then suddenly
00:32:09.100 a wrench gets thrown in
00:32:10.480 because,
00:32:10.840 you know,
00:32:10.980 we were simulating
00:32:11.740 combat as realistically
00:32:13.620 as possible
00:32:14.380 and there's tempers flare.
00:32:16.800 People get real mad
00:32:18.340 real quick
00:32:18.980 when,
00:32:19.580 you know,
00:32:19.840 it's 125 degrees
00:32:21.620 and you're in your full kit
00:32:23.060 and we're talking
00:32:23.960 about some dangerous terrain,
00:32:26.100 some night movements,
00:32:27.800 things can get
00:32:28.380 real sketchy
00:32:29.120 real fast
00:32:29.820 and as a leader,
00:32:31.940 especially,
00:32:32.900 if I were to feed
00:32:34.140 into that angst
00:32:35.440 with that same level
00:32:36.920 of anger
00:32:38.080 and frustration
00:32:38.920 as I'm trying
00:32:40.580 to brief
00:32:41.280 the change
00:32:42.360 in the mission,
00:32:43.000 I mean,
00:32:44.080 it would be horrible.
00:32:44.920 It would just turn
00:32:45.520 into this cluster
00:32:46.500 of egos
00:32:48.000 and sparks would fly.
00:32:49.480 People would just be
00:32:50.160 yelling at each other
00:32:50.920 and I never wanted
00:32:51.740 to do that.
00:32:52.440 So,
00:32:53.340 the advice I received
00:32:54.700 was,
00:32:55.360 hey, look,
00:32:55.920 when things suck,
00:32:56.900 you just gotta
00:32:57.420 calm yourself down,
00:33:00.080 find your center,
00:33:01.320 again,
00:33:01.700 remove the emotionality
00:33:03.000 out of it,
00:33:03.680 the primal limbic
00:33:05.160 response of the brain.
00:33:06.700 Get back into
00:33:07.320 your prefrontal cortex
00:33:08.700 and I'm talking
00:33:09.180 psychology here,
00:33:10.180 but essentially
00:33:11.380 get into your
00:33:12.040 higher mind
00:33:13.200 and come in there
00:33:14.420 with a sense of
00:33:15.400 awareness
00:33:15.960 and transparency.
00:33:17.600 Like, hey,
00:33:18.040 guys,
00:33:18.420 this is gonna suck.
00:33:19.400 I know it's gonna suck,
00:33:20.760 all right,
00:33:21.160 but here's the change.
00:33:22.780 We're gonna do it,
00:33:24.380 but let's just,
00:33:25.080 let's get it done.
00:33:25.740 We know what needs
00:33:26.340 to be done
00:33:26.820 and having that,
00:33:29.040 you know,
00:33:29.520 that open and honest,
00:33:30.700 that truthful approach,
00:33:31.660 it helps kind of quell
00:33:33.420 the anxiety of those
00:33:34.620 around you
00:33:35.060 because then they realize
00:33:36.020 you're not leaving
00:33:37.960 things undiscussed.
00:33:39.220 You know,
00:33:39.420 everything can be
00:33:40.140 talked about
00:33:40.740 and then,
00:33:42.140 yeah,
00:33:42.260 we just kind of get over it.
00:33:43.280 Like,
00:33:43.440 all right,
00:33:43.720 cool,
00:33:44.060 yeah,
00:33:44.260 you acknowledge it sucks,
00:33:45.400 I acknowledge it sucks,
00:33:46.260 it sucks as well,
00:33:47.220 all right,
00:33:47.460 let's do it
00:33:48.120 and let's do it safely
00:33:48.860 and let's do it in a manner
00:33:49.740 that's efficient.
00:33:50.880 But when people come in
00:33:51.940 and say,
00:33:53.320 hey,
00:33:53.640 you know,
00:33:53.840 something change,
00:33:54.480 you're going to do it.
00:33:56.680 Don't talk back,
00:33:57.720 get into the vehicle,
00:33:58.780 do this,
00:33:59.180 do that,
00:33:59.560 whatever it is
00:34:00.260 that needs to be changed.
00:34:01.180 Oh man,
00:34:01.660 there's gonna be some resentment
00:34:02.940 that builds quickly.
00:34:04.840 So you have a chapter
00:34:05.740 on knowing the difference
00:34:07.920 between garrison
00:34:08.780 and field leadership.
00:34:10.720 What's the difference
00:34:11.460 between the two?
00:34:11.960 So yeah,
00:34:13.120 my artillery officer buddy
00:34:15.180 told me that,
00:34:15.920 Jazz.
00:34:17.080 So,
00:34:17.540 okay,
00:34:18.380 so in the field,
00:34:19.820 you deal with,
00:34:20.820 like,
00:34:21.220 let's say desert terrain
00:34:22.120 or whatever,
00:34:23.160 it could be in the woods,
00:34:24.560 it could be,
00:34:25.220 I don't know,
00:34:25.640 wherever you are,
00:34:26.260 but you're dealing with
00:34:28.100 more kinetic factors
00:34:29.900 of the job,
00:34:30.760 you're dealing with
00:34:31.380 weapon systems,
00:34:32.520 you're dealing with
00:34:33.460 adverse weather conditions,
00:34:36.160 rough terrain,
00:34:37.700 and if you're a leader who,
00:34:40.620 so in garrison,
00:34:41.460 it's on base,
00:34:42.740 that's more of the office side,
00:34:44.140 that's more of the paperwork
00:34:44.960 and stuff like that.
00:34:46.260 So let's say you're great
00:34:47.100 at the paperwork,
00:34:47.740 if you go out in the field
00:34:48.760 and you suck,
00:34:49.820 then you could lead your convoy
00:34:51.440 off a cliff,
00:34:52.500 you know?
00:34:53.500 Conversely,
00:34:53.960 if you're really good
00:34:54.880 at the tactics in the field
00:34:56.240 and you're good at,
00:34:56.960 you know,
00:34:57.220 moving people around
00:34:58.140 and getting things done out there,
00:34:59.480 but you come back
00:35:00.220 to the office life
00:35:01.120 and you don't know
00:35:01.900 how to work a computer
00:35:02.740 or write a memo,
00:35:04.480 then your guys
00:35:05.720 are gonna suffer
00:35:06.300 because you're not able
00:35:07.720 to put in the awards for them,
00:35:09.120 you're not able
00:35:09.580 to get them to the schools
00:35:10.520 that they need to get to
00:35:11.540 or help them
00:35:12.740 with anything else
00:35:13.760 that's,
00:35:14.480 you know,
00:35:14.780 related to their personal lives.
00:35:16.340 So my buddy was telling me
00:35:19.240 you could be
00:35:20.560 two of three things
00:35:22.460 in the military,
00:35:23.720 you're good at
00:35:24.140 two of three things.
00:35:24.880 You could be
00:35:25.320 either a good officer
00:35:27.320 in the field,
00:35:28.400 you could be a good officer
00:35:29.540 in garrison,
00:35:30.580 or a good person.
00:35:33.180 You can't be all three,
00:35:34.440 you're always just
00:35:35.100 two of those three.
00:35:36.100 But he said
00:35:37.120 always default
00:35:38.120 to being a good person
00:35:39.660 because whether you suck
00:35:40.880 in the field
00:35:41.380 or you suck in garrison,
00:35:42.700 your guys are gonna
00:35:43.940 have your back.
00:35:44.600 But if you're not
00:35:45.120 a good person,
00:35:46.100 then it doesn't matter
00:35:47.840 that you're good
00:35:48.280 at the other two
00:35:48.920 because everyone's
00:35:49.580 gonna suffer.
00:35:50.460 So that's kind of
00:35:52.020 a short and sweet.
00:35:54.440 Yeah,
00:35:54.620 I think we wrote
00:35:55.600 an article a while
00:35:56.840 back ago
00:35:57.380 about this difference
00:35:58.340 between garrison
00:35:58.900 and field
00:35:59.480 between Eisenhower
00:36:00.940 and Patton.
00:36:02.320 So Patton was probably,
00:36:03.400 he was probably
00:36:03.800 the better tactical officer.
00:36:05.140 He loved being out
00:36:05.720 in the field,
00:36:06.660 being with the men
00:36:07.440 and being in the muck
00:36:08.640 and just being
00:36:09.660 in the action.
00:36:11.020 Eisenhower was more
00:36:12.260 of a strategic officer,
00:36:14.360 the garrison.
00:36:15.120 He was really good
00:36:15.880 at people skills,
00:36:17.440 negotiating,
00:36:18.640 dealing with
00:36:19.200 administrative things,
00:36:20.740 things like that.
00:36:21.860 And because I think
00:36:23.140 their personality
00:36:23.700 suited those different things.
00:36:24.820 And I think a lot
00:36:25.260 of leaders,
00:36:25.860 they get into trouble
00:36:26.720 whenever they,
00:36:27.900 they might be better
00:36:28.780 as a field officer,
00:36:30.180 but they get stuck
00:36:31.160 in a garrison position
00:36:32.720 or the opposite,
00:36:34.340 like a garrison leader
00:36:35.260 gets stuck
00:36:36.240 in a field position.
00:36:37.960 And I think the trick
00:36:38.720 in leadership
00:36:39.080 is finding out
00:36:39.640 what you're good at.
00:36:40.420 And so this applies
00:36:41.200 to the corporate world
00:36:41.880 as well.
00:36:42.660 You might be a guy
00:36:43.500 who you're,
00:36:44.400 say you're in sales
00:36:45.200 or something.
00:36:45.940 You're really great
00:36:46.880 being out in the field
00:36:47.760 and talking to customers
00:36:49.400 and dealing with
00:36:50.200 other salesmen
00:36:50.920 and encouraging them
00:36:51.760 and motivating them.
00:36:52.960 And maybe you get
00:36:53.960 the promotion
00:36:54.520 to,
00:36:55.460 you manage
00:36:56.300 a whole region
00:36:57.800 or maybe you're
00:36:58.340 at the office headquarters
00:36:59.580 and you're just miserable
00:37:00.460 because it just doesn't
00:37:01.860 suit your personality.
00:37:03.140 So I think that's another
00:37:03.660 trick of leadership
00:37:04.280 is trying to figure out
00:37:05.080 what you're good at
00:37:06.040 and leaning into that
00:37:07.580 and not being tempted
00:37:09.160 to go to something else
00:37:10.780 because it might seem
00:37:11.840 more prestigious
00:37:12.500 or they might have
00:37:13.260 more status.
00:37:14.980 Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:15.740 And I would say
00:37:16.260 the best way
00:37:17.300 to handle that situation
00:37:18.680 when things seem
00:37:20.260 sort of out of sync
00:37:21.160 with who you are
00:37:21.780 is to rely on those
00:37:22.720 around you.
00:37:23.420 And again,
00:37:24.100 being a leader
00:37:24.660 is being an enabler.
00:37:25.880 So enabling those people
00:37:26.720 around you
00:37:27.160 to compensate
00:37:28.060 for those deficits,
00:37:29.100 to use their strength
00:37:30.660 to,
00:37:31.480 as a team,
00:37:32.820 build a better unit.
00:37:34.320 So that's huge.
00:37:35.400 So if ego gets in the way
00:37:36.400 and a leader says,
00:37:37.100 no, I got this.
00:37:37.820 I know the book on this.
00:37:38.960 I know the solutions
00:37:40.060 and I'll fix it.
00:37:40.720 I'll figure it out.
00:37:42.360 Everyone's going to stand around
00:37:43.360 and just watch that leader fail.
00:37:44.940 So it's really important
00:37:45.900 to just admit,
00:37:46.740 hey guys,
00:37:47.380 look,
00:37:47.800 I'm great at this stuff.
00:37:49.020 This stuff right here,
00:37:49.840 I need your help.
00:37:50.780 So let's do it.
00:37:53.080 And with that open honesty
00:37:54.340 and that mindset,
00:37:55.020 it really helps
00:37:56.160 shift everything around
00:37:57.180 for that unit.
00:37:57.680 So Dan,
00:37:58.300 we've talked about
00:37:58.700 some great concepts
00:37:59.400 in your book.
00:38:00.040 Is there anything
00:38:00.600 that we missed
00:38:01.320 that you're really passionate about
00:38:02.580 that you hope
00:38:03.160 people will get out of it?
00:38:04.700 The biggest thing
00:38:05.540 that's on my mind
00:38:06.540 is the suicides
00:38:07.980 that happen
00:38:08.500 with veterans
00:38:09.420 and with active duty
00:38:10.540 service members.
00:38:11.660 Leaders can do so much
00:38:12.880 to just approach the job
00:38:14.400 with a sense of humanity,
00:38:16.960 a sense of kindness,
00:38:18.560 a sense of love
00:38:19.440 for their troops
00:38:20.280 that doesn't stop
00:38:22.140 their tactical abilities.
00:38:23.820 It doesn't,
00:38:24.500 it enhances it.
00:38:25.500 And this isn't something
00:38:26.360 I've necessarily
00:38:27.920 just come up with
00:38:29.060 on my own, right?
00:38:29.800 This is something
00:38:30.440 people who've been to war
00:38:32.160 have told me.
00:38:32.880 They said the purest feeling
00:38:34.680 was being in a war zone
00:38:36.160 where the number one concern
00:38:38.180 is did everyone make it back
00:38:40.040 from that movement,
00:38:40.740 from that patrol?
00:38:41.960 Is everyone intact?
00:38:43.300 Is everyone here?
00:38:44.260 Are they present?
00:38:44.960 Are they okay?
00:38:46.320 You know,
00:38:47.100 these service members
00:38:47.940 that I got to work with
00:38:49.060 and these friends
00:38:49.680 that I've just,
00:38:51.080 I'm so pumped
00:38:51.880 that I was able
00:38:52.440 to learn from them
00:38:53.620 and they just,
00:38:55.720 they told me to focus
00:38:56.500 on the relationships
00:38:57.320 because when you do that,
00:39:00.540 you give people
00:39:01.340 the resources
00:39:02.020 and the tools
00:39:02.820 to handle
00:39:04.120 all the struggles
00:39:05.420 in life
00:39:05.960 that come home
00:39:06.680 with them
00:39:07.200 where, you know,
00:39:08.220 they're not around
00:39:08.840 their buddies.
00:39:09.340 They're not connected
00:39:10.900 with others necessarily,
00:39:12.060 but they understand
00:39:13.240 how to handle it.
00:39:14.160 They see their value.
00:39:15.000 They see their capacity
00:39:15.960 to overcome
00:39:16.620 and that resilience
00:39:17.500 stays true.
00:39:18.580 So I would say
00:39:19.340 the biggest takeaway
00:39:20.820 is if you're a leader,
00:39:22.200 please don't be afraid
00:39:24.000 to look into
00:39:25.280 what we consider
00:39:26.340 the softer side
00:39:27.780 of human relationships
00:39:29.880 because counterintuitively,
00:39:32.620 it will not stop you
00:39:34.000 from being a savage tactically
00:39:36.420 to being able to crush
00:39:37.580 whatever physical feat
00:39:39.620 is before you.
00:39:40.900 But I just see
00:39:42.240 sort of this trepidation
00:39:43.740 about approaching leadership
00:39:45.140 that way
00:39:45.580 because people don't want
00:39:46.620 to seem vulnerable
00:39:47.420 and weak.
00:39:48.200 And I understand that,
00:39:50.120 but do the research.
00:39:51.600 Look at the psychological
00:39:52.680 implications of connecting
00:39:53.940 with people
00:39:54.420 on that deeper level
00:39:55.280 because it will save lives.
00:39:57.820 Well, Dan,
00:39:58.060 this has been a great conversation.
00:39:59.200 Where can people go
00:39:59.800 to learn more
00:40:00.200 about the book
00:40:00.680 and your work?
00:40:02.020 I have a website,
00:40:03.200 combatpsych.com
00:40:04.620 they can go to
00:40:05.420 and the book is on Amazon,
00:40:07.120 Backpack to Rucksack,
00:40:08.760 Insight into Leadership
00:40:09.660 and Resilience
00:40:10.420 for Military Experts.
00:40:12.320 And they can just put my name
00:40:13.320 on there, Dan Joseph.
00:40:15.300 Fantastic.
00:40:15.760 Well, Dan Joseph,
00:40:16.360 thanks for your time.
00:40:16.820 It's been a pleasure.
00:40:17.820 Thank you.
00:40:18.380 Appreciate it.
00:40:19.300 My guest here was Dan Joseph.
00:40:20.340 So if he's the author
00:40:21.020 of the book,
00:40:21.580 Backpack to Rucksack,
00:40:22.660 it's available on amazon.com.
00:40:24.280 You can find more information
00:40:25.100 about his work
00:40:25.540 at his website,
00:40:26.300 combatpsych.com.
00:40:28.060 Also check out our show notes
00:40:28.960 at awim.is
00:40:29.900 slash military mentors
00:40:31.100 where you can find links
00:40:31.760 to resources
00:40:32.340 where you can delve
00:40:32.740 deeper into this topic.
00:40:41.000 Well, that wraps up
00:40:42.020 another edition
00:40:42.680 of the AWIM podcast.
00:40:43.820 Make sure to check out
00:40:44.460 our website
00:40:44.880 at artofmanliness.com
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00:40:46.280 our podcast archives
00:40:47.300 as well as thousands
00:40:48.160 of articles
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00:41:16.720 As always,
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00:41:19.000 Until next time,
00:41:19.620 this is Brett McKay
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