The Art of Manliness - Let the Children Play!

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.420 in finland children don't start formal schooling until age seven aren't subject to standardized

00:00:14.580 testing and always get at least one hour of physical activity a day broken into 15 minute

00:00:18.980 free play breaks every hour which take place outside no matter the weather finished parents

00:00:24.000 and teachers espouse mantras like let children be children the children must play and the work

00:00:28.780 of a child is to play yet despite this emphasis on play finnish students still achieve enviable

00:00:33.820 academic outcomes and grow up to become some of the happiest adults on earth my guest today says

00:00:37.900 the finnish model of education and parenting with its heavy emphasis on play is worth replicating in

00:00:42.500 other countries his name is posse salberg and he's a finnish educator and researcher currently living

00:00:46.760 in australia as well as the co-author along with william doyle the book let the children play how

00:00:51.120 more play will save our schools and help children thrive posse begins our conversation by sharing

00:00:55.380 what the data says as to how much less kids are playing today than they did in the past and the

00:00:59.560 factors that have led to this decrease both at school and at home we then discuss the fact that

00:01:03.360 even when kids do play today it's often more structured and adult directed even sometimes

00:01:07.820 involving something called a recess coach and how this has led to the sad phenomenon of children who

00:01:12.460 no longer know how to play on their own we then discuss what is lost when kids don't play enough from

00:01:16.560 a decline in physical and mental confidence to a decrease in creativity we end our conversation with the

00:01:21.200 elements of healthy play that educators and parents who want to revive it can look to

00:01:24.560 incorporate in their children's lives after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is

00:01:28.460 slash play

00:01:29.140 all right posse salberg welcome to the show thanks uh brett good to be with you so we got this book let

00:01:47.300 the children play and it's all about encouraging parents and teachers to let kids play which is you

00:01:54.460 know it's weird that you'd have to have a book to tell me hey kids play which is this thing that

00:01:59.680 all mammals do yeah and it's just sort of natural so let's talk about the state of play in the west

00:02:05.920 particularly in the united states and i think you can say generally in the west because it's sort of

00:02:09.600 it's been spreading you make the case that children in the u.s are playing much much less than children

00:02:15.000 a generation ago do we have any numbers on this like how much do we know how much children played

00:02:19.660 say the start of the 20th century compared to how much play they're getting now yeah you know the

00:02:25.300 first piece of evidence that we need to mention here is the the the kind of a bold facts that come

00:02:31.700 from parents and and we have been asking the same question in the united states or my colleagues have

00:02:36.940 there i speak to you now in australia we've done recently the similar type of study and service here

00:02:42.600 asking parents particularly mothers that if you look at your own children today how much do they

00:02:48.420 spend time playing outdoors and inside inside the house compared to what you did when you were

00:02:54.140 that age which is a kind of a interesting question to compare yourself your own experience to what

00:02:59.520 what you see in your own children and you know in the united states north america and here is exactly

00:03:04.140 the same it's about 90 percent of parents respond that if they compare their own play experiences when

00:03:11.040 they were kids that they used to play much more often significantly more than their children this of

00:03:16.820 course it's not the kind of a scientific proof of declining of play time but it's a it's an

00:03:22.060 interesting indication but you you're asking you're asking for numbers and you know if we go back in

00:03:27.320 history now looking at the united states people often refer the 1960s as a kind of a golden era or

00:03:34.060 decade of many things so you know freedoms and civil rights and many other things but that was also the

00:03:39.640 time when recess and play in the u.s particularly primary school elementary schools was considered

00:03:46.620 as part of the the formal good education so you were a good school if you were giving your children

00:03:52.080 enough time to play not just under the supervision of teacher and adult but just you know play with

00:03:59.120 other kids in the schoolyard so until the 1980s and now we we come to the numbers here it was a common

00:04:06.320 practice in the u.s schools and you know it was a common practice almost anywhere else that the

00:04:11.720 schools typically had about three or four 10 to 20 minutes recess breaks every day throughout the

00:04:18.800 schooling when we came to 1990s in the united states and and now we come to the kind of a part where this

00:04:24.900 you know the data and evidence is a little bit more mixed because they are not exact numbers it's hard to

00:04:30.520 get the exact numbers but some indication that in the early 1990s almost all of the school districts

00:04:36.440 in the united states reported that they have a they have a practice of recess in their schools

00:04:41.360 or that they have the policy in place so this was in the 1990s so we're talking about about 30 years ago

00:04:46.960 now what has happened ever since and this is this is where the story gets interesting depends a little

00:04:52.180 bit where you what type of data or surveys or research you look at but in the beginning of the

00:04:57.500 2000s around 2005 there's a one survey larger survey that indicates that 57 percent of u.s districts or

00:05:06.460 school systems had recess so it had declined significantly in about 15 years five years later

00:05:13.520 in 2000 about 10 years ago 2010-11 40 percent of the school districts in the u.s reported that they have

00:05:20.140 a policy of recess and play in school in place but only about 20 percent were implementing that policy

00:05:27.440 according to their own information in 2016 we are coming to you know closer of the situation today

00:05:33.260 only 16 percent of the u.s states required recess in primary schools and now the situation is that

00:05:41.600 we we know that about 40 percent of the the school districts in the u.s have either significantly

00:05:49.620 reduced or completely eliminated the the recess in their schools so that's what we so so we we see

00:05:56.620 you we see this evolution of you know coming from the kind of ideal situation where recess and play

00:06:03.020 were considered as a as a normal part of education and and learning in school to the situation where

00:06:09.200 it's becoming a kind of a very rare thing but now we are talking about the united states now i don't know

00:06:14.760 if you want to hear any good news but you know the good news now is that there has been a recent

00:06:19.520 turnaround in this in many states that many u.s states have began to understand that this is this has been the

00:06:25.740 wrong wrong wrong thing to do and they have gradually introduced legislation and regulations that will

00:06:32.940 will actually mandate that the school should have at least 20 minutes every day for recess some some

00:06:39.260 states have done done it more so we have seen during the last 50 years we have seen this kind of a curve of

00:06:44.280 you know seeing recess and play almost disappearing from schools and now then gradually luckily coming back

00:06:51.360 so what was driving the decrease of recess in primary school well if you if you teach if you experience

00:06:59.440 teacher or principal listen to this conversation here you know the answer immediately because you

00:07:04.020 you see that you know something happened in the 1990s and particularly in the the 2000s

00:07:09.680 in the beginning of the century that probably has something to do with this decline and you know in the

00:07:15.500 1990s if you're american teacher or principal you you remember that 1990s was a time when

00:07:20.340 when this standardization began to take place in the schools meaning that the the older schools were

00:07:26.060 kind of expected to follow the similar standards and expectations and then came the the kind of the

00:07:32.580 the waves of standardized assessments and tests that were used to check whether these standards were

00:07:38.740 were met and these were not the standards for play or reasons or creativity or arts or social sciences

00:07:44.240 they're mostly standards for mathematics and reading and and science so the more the education systems in

00:07:51.680 the united states began to get standardized and the more the schools began to be held accountable for

00:07:59.460 those standards using these standardized tests particularly following the no child left behind legislation in

00:08:05.540 early 2000s the the kind of a less focus and opportunities there has been on on recess and and play and so

00:08:14.000 so so that's obviously we can prove exactly that there is a kind of a causal link between those two

00:08:21.220 things but it's it's a very clear that you know that the more schools are kind of seeing education as a

00:08:29.680 high stakes game that they need to play in order to survive and you know keep things moving the less focus

00:08:36.780 there has been on those things that have been considered as a less significant for for these stakes then there's

00:08:43.200 another issue i think that this is kind of a strictly educational reform movement issue that is

00:08:50.380 probably explaining this but then there's another one that is simply the safety thing that there are

00:08:55.120 there are schools i remember my time i spent about almost 10 years living in the united states and i saw

00:09:00.560 tens or hundreds of schools and i was always kind of surprised about the the safety concerns that were

00:09:06.580 increasingly there particularly whenever there was a there was this horrible incidences of violence in

00:09:12.580 the schools that you know the school school gates were closed and locked and and all the kids were

00:09:17.160 kept inside and i i think that some in some places some districts or schools and particularly the urban

00:09:23.560 urban area schools that they they kind of learned to live with this fear and and danger and and

00:09:29.240 thought that you know we rather keep kids indoors during the school days in case you know something happens

00:09:34.740 so they are those two kind of a brand major things that have really negatively affected the time that

00:09:42.740 kids have for them for themselves in the school for play and do other things and and this implementation

00:09:47.880 of the recess policies overall and you also talk about even when schools do have recess you give an

00:09:54.080 example of this in the book it's the nature of it has changed so when i grew up recess was the teachers

00:09:58.860 like just get out of here go play jump on you know whatever do whatever you want to do it was free

00:10:04.500 play there was one school you highlighted where there was a a coach there was a recess coach

00:10:10.300 and you're like well that's gym class like no no it's this is recent i'm a recess coach

00:10:15.480 yeah yeah that's the um and that's not that's not only the the u.s phenomenon i i think this is

00:10:21.820 something that my co-author bill doyle saw in new york that he saw a lot of kids you know playing in a

00:10:28.420 schoolyard but not you know not as they normally do if they have a recess and you know play freely

00:10:33.320 you know do whatever they want to do but there was a there was an adult there that was called coach

00:10:38.500 recess coach that was doing all kinds of activities often physical activities and you know for us it

00:10:44.500 looked more like a typical gym class that was just taken outside outside of the schoolhouse

00:10:51.400 and and that's but you know i must say that here in australia i live in sydney and it's it's a very

00:10:57.040 common thing here as well that you know you know after school when children sometimes need to stay in

00:11:01.900 the school a little bit longer after the school hours that you know rather than you know allowing

00:11:07.420 them to play and you know self-organize and figure out what to do with with the other kids that they

00:11:12.060 have this this almost like a teachers or coaches there to uh to make sure that you know everybody has

00:11:18.300 something to do and and in most cases i think the reason is also that they the parents and

00:11:22.920 and the schools they want to they kind of think that kids are safe when there's a when there's an

00:11:28.160 adult you know watching over and you know asking them what to do i think this the william william's

00:11:34.380 story in this book is also interesting because the um i think the coach their response to him that's

00:11:41.340 when william is asking that why do you why do you just don't let them play and you know watch over

00:11:46.840 and the response is that there's so many kids now who don't know anymore how to play that they

00:11:51.540 haven't they haven't been experiences of kind of a free self-directed play that much that they would

00:11:58.380 know what to do and that's a kind of a sad sad part of the story it is a sad part of the story okay so

00:12:04.060 in schools there's less recess what's driving that it's you know hard to say but there's a hunch is

00:12:09.100 whenever the increase in standardized testing in the united states the pressure on faculty for the

00:12:15.400 students to do well on those tests caused them to like spend less time on recess more time in the

00:12:19.660 classroom getting ready for the test and also the safetyism issue parents just being worried about

00:12:25.100 that's that was that was the factor but besides decreasing recess you also talk about just in the

00:12:29.760 classroom play has been reduced you talk about in the 60s even in the 50s pedagogy in the united

00:12:35.920 states particularly for primary age students it was very play-based i mean can you give us an idea

00:12:40.400 what that looked like and then what what is it what does school look like now with outplay yeah i think

00:12:48.220 it's more it's more about mostly about understanding what the play is all about and that that's something

00:12:53.180 that is often kind of a narrowly understood by many parents particularly parents not so much of

00:12:59.860 teachers i think all the teachers understand it but you know for example here when i ask parents

00:13:04.940 about play they very common for you still is the play is something you do when you've done all the

00:13:10.540 serious stuff you know if they look if they look their parents or adults they say that you know play

00:13:15.340 something you do when you've done your work or when you completed your work and and you know this this

00:13:20.080 is unfortunately how play is often still used in the schools it's almost like an award that you are

00:13:27.580 given if you've done if you've done your homework if you've been successful in the school if you've done

00:13:31.920 well in a test that you kind of you are awarded a little bit extra time to play unfortunately

00:13:37.760 sometimes you are also punished by that you know if you're not if you're not a good boy in a school

00:13:42.540 that you don't you know when the others are having their 20 minutes to play you don't you don't do that

00:13:47.400 but i think that in a kind of a good school for me the play manifests itself in a in a way that

00:13:55.080 it's seen as as it was in in the 1960s in in the u.s schools as you described as as a normal natural

00:14:02.960 part of you know the way of life for young children and it's seen also as a as an integral element of

00:14:11.440 good learning that this is like this this is how children naturally learn particularly when we are

00:14:16.740 looking at the young children that you know how the how the children learn about themselves and learn

00:14:21.680 about the world is is primarily through play different types of play activities and so so

00:14:28.120 you know if the if the school is kind of a well designed and well thought around this idea of

00:14:34.420 learning through play and and having play as a as a important element it should be there everywhere

00:14:40.740 not just that that we give children little play time when they have done the serious work but

00:14:45.320 that the play would also enter into the classroom and these teaching and learning situations whenever that

00:14:51.300 is a kind of a sensible i'm not saying that you know the school should be play all the time but it

00:14:57.000 should be should be designed in a way that the the the kids would also learn to understand that play is

00:15:02.460 is actually an important way of them to learn about the world and learn about other people and learn

00:15:08.680 about themselves well i think back my own like early childhood education like the memory is very

00:15:13.840 foggy so this is like the 80s so kindergarten first grade second grade i remember there being a lot of play

00:15:19.940 like you'd sing songs and clap your hands you're saying the abcs that's play i mean it doesn't feel

00:15:24.840 like it was work uh dressing up there's like a dress up section i remember in kindergarten you dress up

00:15:29.300 like a policeman or doctor or whatever yeah uh like math there's a lot of like just like you're playing

00:15:34.240 with blocks and you're counting and and but now i guess it's the the the push is we have to get kids

00:15:41.640 at an early age there's a pressure i guess and its parents are worried about this too it's like

00:15:46.300 well i got my i gotta have my kindergartner doing math as soon as possible because we got to get

00:15:52.280 ready for them to do well in the sat in 18 years and i need my you know five-year-old to know how to

00:15:58.280 read because the earlier they read they're going to do better on these standardized tests and so

00:16:03.580 there's this pressure to i mean that's another pressure you're taking play in order to do that you

00:16:07.000 have to kind of sort of sort of this drill mentality with your teaching but i mean you've highlighted

00:16:11.340 research that this concern that parents have or teachers have about making sure your kid can do

00:16:17.380 all this stuff math reading really early doesn't really do much for them no you know there's no

00:16:22.960 evidence that would support this argument that you made you know if you learn to read younger that you

00:16:29.280 will do better in school and life in general or you know let alone that the younger you learn to

00:16:33.880 read the better you will do in school that's not that's not the case not even even mathematics i i think

00:16:39.460 you know all of these all of these correlations between the the academic abilities that are

00:16:45.900 learned younger and you know how they how they correlate or explain your success or failure later

00:16:52.000 on have no kind of a research evidence base so we should not not believe in these things you know

00:16:58.900 the good example i often when i think about the u.s schools i i often say that you know go and see

00:17:06.420 what the parents in the places like silicon valley do with their children you know what type of schools

00:17:11.640 they go they often go to this alternative pedagogy you know montessori and steiner schools where

00:17:17.020 there's a you know a lot of play and music and you know hanging around you know learning learning in

00:17:21.540 your own own pace and and own ways rather than you know insist that you know kids learn to do these

00:17:26.900 things earlier on so i i think the parents need to be very careful and mindful with that i think

00:17:32.480 you know what is predicting success in school and life much more than you know this early early learning

00:17:39.560 of academic stuff is to you know learn learn to understand who you are and learn to kind of value

00:17:45.880 your own own capacities and and and skills and and curiosity that you have and this is exactly where

00:17:51.920 the where the where the play comes into the picture you know let alone the the other kind of

00:17:57.400 non-academic skills like you know social skills with you know being able to be with other kids and

00:18:02.620 you know solving problems collectively in a sandbox that often often is a kind of interesting thing to

00:18:08.260 follow and also the you know the physical development of yourself that you you grow up healthy and happy so

00:18:13.600 those things are often much more important for children young kids than you know at what age do they

00:18:19.920 learn to read or write we're gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsors

00:18:23.740 and now back to the show so okay there's less play in school what about when kids are out of school

00:18:32.620 do we i mean i guess this is going to kind of harder to figure out if they're playing less because you

00:18:36.280 can't look at recess data but any i mean i guess the data we have is you ask parents or mothers like

00:18:42.340 what are your kids doing out of school and i guess kids aren't really playing that much

00:18:46.220 yeah you know there's a lot of a lot of kind of evidence that you know indicates to that kind of

00:18:53.160 that type of conclusion that children are playing less today than they they did you know even even like

00:18:59.140 10 20 years ago and as you said research is is quite difficult to find that would show this entirely

00:19:05.720 you know lego foundation is one of those that is is kind of both doing and coordinating research

00:19:10.880 on play around the world and they they often they often look at the state of play globally and

00:19:17.660 you know their conclusions from different countries around the world have been exactly the same

00:19:21.860 you know interestingly in in one of the most recent state of play reports by lego foundation they

00:19:27.300 realized that 20 percent of children themselves in these surveys report that they are too busy to

00:19:33.640 play but they would love to play but they have too many things to do and you know i don't know how

00:19:37.840 the five-year-old can say that you know i'm too i'd love to play but i'm too busy other than you know

00:19:42.300 being busy because of the things that they are asked to do by by the school but i think brett that

00:19:47.960 you know there's a there's an important factor that is often linked to this conversation about

00:19:52.180 you know children playing less when they are not in a school you know when they're spending their time

00:19:56.800 at home and it's the very rapidly growing time that very young children from early on that they spend

00:20:03.480 with the technology and it's not at all uncommon in in the u.s that you have a you have a tween

00:20:09.300 you know somebody who's a 10 year old who spends six seven eight hours every day with their with the

00:20:16.680 ipad or gadget or smartphone or computer at home and it's it's a it's obvious that you know if if

00:20:22.160 somebody all of a sudden if the kids are spending hours and hours every day on something new that

00:20:27.060 they didn't used to do that this time is away from something else often it's away from sleep that

00:20:33.080 they sleep a little bit less than they they should but in most cases you know this time that you see

00:20:38.480 kids kids uh spending with their digital gadgets it's it's often often this time is is a it's a way

00:20:46.300 from you know them being outdoors you know playing basketball or you know games with their with their

00:20:52.140 friends or just you know playing indoors uh their own way so but as i said it's this area where we

00:20:57.240 have much less uh kind of a solid evidence and data to say anything exactly yeah i think it's a lot of

00:21:03.820 anecdotal i think everyone understands that like kids are spending a lot of times on screens more

00:21:07.820 and i think the other issue too that's keeping kids away from play which is like just sort of like

00:21:12.880 traditional play sort of open range free range kid directed it's a lot of kids are just in

00:21:19.000 organized events you know whether they're playing sports or doing piano or they're i don't know boy

00:21:26.380 scouts cub scouts whatever that is like they're that's a lot of their time is being spent doing

00:21:30.060 that yeah yeah and you know this this is one of those trends that we we have seen certainly here

00:21:35.360 in australia and in in the united states and many countries in europe as well is that that this the time

00:21:40.720 that children have spent on what is called play is now much more kind of a controlled and directed

00:21:48.700 by by you know the coach somebody a coach or or music teacher or or somebody who's leading the stuff

00:21:55.980 rather than you know seeing children outdoors you know leading their own learning and um and and play

00:22:04.560 and that's that is the it's not necessarily kind of like seriously bad thing but it's a significant

00:22:12.460 change of the children's experience that they have had before in you know when they have been playing

00:22:18.680 by themselves and and the condition that is missing in this kind of a new form of playing when it much

00:22:23.900 more supervised and controlled by by adults is that the children have much less opportunities to

00:22:30.680 experience that they are you know they are in control of something and that's for for me as a father

00:22:36.240 of two two boys here is a is a extremely important thing that i give my children opportunities to to

00:22:43.740 experience what it means to you know have a control of your own you know your own doings for a while

00:22:49.400 every every day and you know at the same time if you if you look at the the typical inner city kids here

00:22:56.720 for example here in sydney they have very very few moments and opportunities to have this experience that

00:23:02.380 you know how does it feel to have this kind of a sense of you know controlling your own own life and doing

00:23:08.680 it for a while and that's such an important skill to learn to take this responsibility and understand what

00:23:14.100 happens but we still give our children less and less opportunities to do that so that's why i'm so so kind of

00:23:20.840 i'm much favoring this uh free outdoor play as the i often call it the highest order of play that when parents

00:23:28.880 ask me here that so what should i do with my kids to really make sure that they get the most of the

00:23:34.360 benefits of of play time as it just take them outdoors and step step aside just let them find a

00:23:40.020 way to do these these things because that's where the likelihood that these miracles would would happen

00:23:45.900 is the highest well i'd like to talk about the consequences of this lack of play and i think this

00:23:50.140 is a good segue you're talking about this you know what play does when kids are doing self-directed play

00:23:55.640 it's they're training their executive function right like they're they're in that really vital

00:24:00.240 period in their life when they're you know in their childhood years and going into their adolescence

00:24:04.500 they need to learn that skill of making decisions on their own and like you said like there's kids

00:24:10.000 they who don't even know how to play like they can't even do that so if there's a kid doesn't know

00:24:13.400 how to play and what's he going to be like when he's 20 30 and he has to make big important decisions

00:24:18.300 on his own like that's that's sad like i don't want to just think about that of a kid who doesn't know

00:24:22.660 how to play that's like an adult that won't be able to make decisions on their own or very well

00:24:27.160 yeah yeah that's right that's right and you know this is a really good news for parents and teachers

00:24:32.240 as well who often feel that you know it's difficult to that it's difficult to teach my children or my

00:24:38.320 students how to play or it's difficult to kind of make sure that they get all these benefits but you

00:24:43.880 know it's actually very easy because as i said earlier that the easiest thing to do is just to you

00:24:48.600 know give these children a freedom to play and you know exercise this kind of a sense of being

00:24:54.780 in control and you know step aside and and just just see that you know what happens and often people

00:25:00.520 people come with the comments like but you know there's there's a hazard there there's a kind of a

00:25:05.660 risks of getting heard and and you know even more and you know of course it's a it's a responsibility

00:25:12.200 of us parents and teachers to make sure that you know all these kind of a serious risks are somehow

00:25:19.520 controlled and that that's why i think it's important that that we we parents don't provide

00:25:25.740 all the kind of a safety that is possible for kids when they're for example when they're playing

00:25:30.180 in the forest or outside or in the park but we we make sure that all the necessary safety measures

00:25:36.300 will be considered so that they don't like a seriously hurt themselves but that you know that's

00:25:42.320 exactly if we don't if we don't ever have our children in a situation where they have to kind

00:25:46.640 of consider risks or you know think about whether they get hurt if they do something you know how do

00:25:53.480 they learn to live their lives that is full of these hazards and risks around them if they if they

00:25:59.280 haven't learned that in a younger younger age and you know when we're working on this letter children

00:26:04.100 playbook we went to see some of these this kind of risky play schools and and they are the risky

00:26:10.280 play playgrounds and parks here in sydney and it's the same story we hear all the time from these

00:26:16.220 people who are running these places is that you know the kids actually experience much less

00:26:22.180 incidences of kind of accidents or or harm because they are allowed to consider themselves what is a

00:26:29.200 kind of a safe way to play or you know use this space that often when we adults when we do this

00:26:34.840 and you know you know we give these kids the list of things that they must not do in this playground

00:26:39.360 or in this camp that they kind of don't think about you know this risk anymore that they try to

00:26:45.140 remember all these rules that we have given them but they don't actively kind of think about what

00:26:49.280 they mean and you know why this why why this is not allowed compared to the situation where they

00:26:53.980 should just left alone and said you know think about you know consider yourself what is safe here

00:26:59.060 and and that's that's why this um this free play outdoors is so important that reminds me of something

00:27:05.680 we've had guests on the podcast um psychologists who are specialized in embodied cognition and they

00:27:11.060 talk about old people who fall and they said one of the reasons why you see old people fall more

00:27:16.080 is because as you get older you tend to choose environments that are less complex so you just you're

00:27:21.260 going to avoid stairs or curbs or being outdoors where there's a lot of complexity in the environment

00:27:26.520 and you're you're basically your body and mind forget how to navigate that and so when you do

00:27:31.000 encounter a crack or a step you don't know what to do and you trip and you fall and that causes a lot

00:27:36.560 of problems that can like they said it's happening to children too because like kids are not being

00:27:41.980 spending time in outdoors those really complex environments and they don't learn how to navigate

00:27:46.720 different their body and mind can't they don't develop like they should and so you're

00:27:51.140 seeing kids they fall down more and you're showing like kids who play in dangerous areas

00:27:56.260 they actually are less prone to trips and falls because they know how to navigate those complex

00:28:02.420 environments yeah yeah exactly and you know this is this is the good way to further develop your

00:28:08.320 executive functions that you mentioned and that's why many of the pediatricians for example in the

00:28:13.380 united states the american academy of pediatricians is so so kind of a strongly encouraging parents

00:28:19.400 and schools to make sure that children have time to to free play outdoors because it's a good way to

00:28:25.880 develop these functions exactly as as you mentioned that people for example when the kids are in a

00:28:31.480 playground and they have to pay attention to different things simultaneously like they you know they

00:28:36.340 won't be walking without their shoes somewhere and where they are kind of a risky things that they

00:28:40.700 have to they have to look at the the the situation where they are in and you know think about where they're

00:28:47.160 going and you know all these other things that is so important to you know develop these abilities

00:28:52.120 but you know if you're always always walking holding somebody's hand and you know people are removing all

00:28:58.340 these things for you then you need to you you cannot really experience these things and and again you know

00:29:04.600 this goes back to this the importance of you know free outdoor play and and the power it can have

00:29:09.780 on on your overall growth and development all right so outdoor player the lack of outdoor play free play

00:29:15.260 can hinder executive function development can hinder mind body development let's go back to grades in

00:29:21.620 school i mean one of the reasons why kids are playing less in schools or doing less recess is that

00:29:27.200 teachers thought well this would improve academic performance has that panned out yeah well you you know

00:29:32.220 again and kind of strictly speaking this this is a question that is very hard to it's hard to prove that

00:29:38.600 less play would be would be the reason why the the academic results have not improved or actually

00:29:45.800 they have gone down a little bit but you know in the big picture and and you know we we may take a look

00:29:51.160 at the united states as a whole but you know let's let's take the whole club just for the sake of

00:29:56.460 curiosity here and and and ask this thing that you know when the when the children are playing less

00:30:02.040 than they used to like let's say 20 years ago and also that the quality of this play has probably declined

00:30:08.600 what has happened to the academic learning outcomes and as you said that you know this has

00:30:12.880 often been excused to play less is to have more time to you know learn these uh all important uh core

00:30:20.960 academic skills but you know the kind of a bold conclusion in this global scene is that you know the

00:30:26.860 students are not learning better or more than they did 20 years ago in many many places this the

00:30:34.200 quality of learning outcomes the academic learning has been declining for example in the the oecd

00:30:40.100 countries that is the the the the wealthiest part of the world the united states and finland and

00:30:44.800 australia are part of that you know students are students quality of learning outcomes has been

00:30:50.100 declining during the 20 years and of course at the same time you know the time that they spend

00:30:56.580 playing at home or in school has also been declined but we cannot prove that you know that there

00:31:04.000 would be a kind of a causal connection between these two things so it's it's hard to argue you know

00:31:10.500 anything about this but i i think the the important question here is as well that you know what

00:31:16.680 what is what is this declining playtime or or play deprivation as it sometimes called you know what is it

00:31:24.300 doing to to children is it is it good or bad and and as we as we write in the book that there's a

00:31:30.860 there's ample of evidence showing that you know that when we take the play away from children's lives

00:31:37.020 whether it's in a school or at home or or decrees that that can have a serious consequences to their

00:31:44.500 particularly their mental well-being and health but also physical development that we see all kinds of

00:31:50.120 and i think the united states is a good example of this that you know how the health of young

00:31:54.720 children has been declining and particularly now the mental health because of the lack of opportunities

00:31:59.800 to play so this is a kind of a conversation that is going on i you know i would if i if i want to have

00:32:06.340 evidence from anybody to this question i would definitely turn into the the children's medical doctors

00:32:13.160 pediatricians to you know ask their opinion and their view on this and they are very clear about

00:32:18.380 you know what what happens when when the kids are not playing enough and in turn what what the kind

00:32:26.000 of a healthy and and high quality play can do for for all children so grades have been declining we

00:32:32.440 can't prove you can't it's hard to prove that it's the lack of play it's a causal factor but i mean

00:32:37.760 when you talk to teachers who have been teaching for 30 years and they've they started off where it was

00:32:44.340 very play-based the kids got lots of recess and they got moved to that period where they had to

00:32:48.240 like you know less recess because they got to focus on the test they would note that it just it got

00:32:53.000 harder to teach particularly younger kids because the kids they you know kids are kids they're gonna they

00:32:58.680 want to move around they've got the short attention spans they got a lot of energy and by not letting

00:33:04.300 them play they just got harder and harder to corral them make make them focus on learning

00:33:09.720 multiplication tables when they're six years old yeah that's that's true and but you know it's it's

00:33:15.900 not necessarily just play i think the teachers are right when they say this but they they are you

00:33:21.320 know there are many other forms that are close to play like physical activity for example that has

00:33:25.500 been has been equally declining in many many schools in the united states that the children don't have

00:33:32.440 like daily physical activity as they should like like you know compared to the schools in finland where

00:33:38.640 where the regulation the national regulation basically is that every child must have at least

00:33:44.060 one hour physical activity not the physical education but physical activity every day and this is

00:33:49.360 something that has been declining in the u.s schools you know physical activity and play are you know

00:33:55.360 in many cases it's the same thing but it can also have different different forms so i i think this

00:34:00.840 movement in general that the kids you know if we if we keep children inside the classroom

00:34:05.640 staying on their seats and and you know focus on stuff that the teacher is giving them it's um

00:34:12.000 it's no wonder that they just see you know more and more children who are not able to concentrate

00:34:16.440 we often say that half an hour 30 minutes is about the maximum time that a primary school student can

00:34:22.540 concentrate on practically anything that requires a kind of a serious intellectual effort to understand or

00:34:29.560 or do something then they need to have a break to you know move around and and and you know of course

00:34:35.500 the play is the easiest thing to do that just to let the children play a little bit or do something

00:34:40.760 but the physical physical exercise physical activity is equally equally important so we need to have we

00:34:46.580 need to have both of those certainly and then another connection with this mental health issue

00:34:50.720 you talk about there could be a connection with the lack of play or physical activity

00:34:54.520 in schools contributing to you're seeing this increase in numbers of children being diagnosed

00:35:00.820 with adhd and it could be there's like we've actually had a psychologist on this talking about

00:35:04.980 there is there was probably it's probably gotten he said maybe it's gotten better but there there has

00:35:09.700 been an over like adhd has been over diagnosed yes and what the argument is that the reason why it's

00:35:15.380 been over diagnosed is you have kids who they're they're required to focus on you know learning math or

00:35:22.320 reading or science for long periods of time without any physical activity they can't do it and so the

00:35:27.380 teacher's like well and you go see the counselor and the counselor like well maybe he has adhd and

00:35:31.860 they go to the doctor and then the kid's on riddaline or adderall yeah yeah that's that's true actually in

00:35:38.140 the book we have a story about my own my older older son here who was young when we lived in in the

00:35:43.840 united states and and there was a there was american psychologist who was spending one morning with my

00:35:49.520 my wife when i was in a meeting at the same time and the psychologist came back to me after this

00:35:55.040 morning session looking really serious and and her question to me was that you didn't know that your

00:36:02.080 son has adhd and you know he was less than three that time but but you know you know this point that

00:36:09.640 when we look at the children it depends on what type of experience or culture we have behind us

00:36:16.720 because for us of course as parents when we look at our our own son who is you know he's a wild kid

00:36:22.800 like many young boys are that you know he cannot stand still he wants to climb trees and you know

00:36:27.680 collect plants and and ants and you know those things um you know rather than sit and listen to

00:36:33.380 boring stories of the the adults but in some other places this is considered as a as a kind of a

00:36:38.860 disturbing factor and i must say it's just like you said that i think that adhd in the united states is

00:36:43.480 is highly highly kind of over diagnosed i'm not saying that there wouldn't be individuals there

00:36:50.080 who would need this and you know i'm also belong to to those who believe that you know if only we

00:36:55.680 would be giving children more opportunities to play and you know to do the things that they want to do

00:37:00.960 that we would probably have less you know less of these cases where we really need to consider the

00:37:07.180 kind of medical treatment for the kids another consequence potential consequence of lack of play

00:37:14.280 that i was i was intrigued by and also worried about is there may be affecting or the lack of play

00:37:21.120 is causing a decreasing creativity what's there like what does the research say there and what do you

00:37:26.600 think is going on yeah i think it's a similar similar trend that we see in the overall school

00:37:33.380 achievements uh among kids that they are there are some studies that indicate that the creativity

00:37:37.900 overall has been in decline during the last 20 years it's again it's a it's a difficult you know

00:37:47.540 creativity is even harder to measure than you know learning in in general but some indications say

00:37:53.840 that creativity has been in decline but again it's a it's a difficult to prove that this would be

00:38:00.240 directly linked to the you know declining time of play or experiences that children have

00:38:06.600 particularly in free free outdoor play so so we can we cannot really speculate too much on that but

00:38:12.220 again i think what we can say is that if you really if you're really concerned about the that you know

00:38:18.100 the state of creativity among young people then the one thing you can do is to you know ask yourself

00:38:24.480 are we allowing these children to experience free unstructured play enough where they're

00:38:30.140 good experience and exercise and further develop their their imagination curiosity and creativity

00:38:36.740 so rather than wait for the evidence that would indicate that i think it's it's better to start

00:38:43.160 action and and and try to you know try to make sure that the kids would continue to have these

00:38:49.440 experiences over time you know the other other interesting thing is that again and there's probably more

00:38:54.840 research on on that front that this creativity as such seem to seem to decrease also when the children are

00:39:05.580 growing older sometimes people say that the more time you spend in school and learning in school the less

00:39:12.560 creative you will become because you kind of learn to do things as they should be done in a school rather than

00:39:18.520 figure out yourself different things but but you know there is this this trend i i think is equally

00:39:24.660 important that the when when the kids are growing older and this has been there for probably forever so

00:39:31.080 it's not anything new that you know more the children are spending time in a school environment and

00:39:36.880 you know exposed to teaching and learning as it is the less creative they seem to become at least their own

00:39:44.440 kind of a sense of creativity declines and then there's this other trend that is more like an

00:39:48.800 over time like evolution what happens what has happened during the last 20 years and and that's why you

00:39:54.380 know we we need to do something about it and if you want to do something something about it just make

00:39:58.540 sure that your students and children have enough time to you know exercise and develop these important

00:40:04.100 elements of creativity that you can do equally well in school and also at home so you know parents are

00:40:09.780 listening this like okay play is important i want to get my kid playing more is there

00:40:14.320 i mean i'm sure you've researched this like what does healthy play look like what other factors that

00:40:19.360 we know is like well if these factors are there then this is this is good play or should parents get

00:40:23.540 really hung up on that it's a great question and i think you know my advice to parents who are

00:40:29.960 listening to this and i'm curious about their own children's play or grandchildren's play is to

00:40:34.820 to really at first ask that what what do i understand how how do i define play what is play to me

00:40:39.920 and because that's something that needs to be needs to be figured out first but then you know again

00:40:45.760 when we're working on the letter children playbook this was one of those hardest questions that we had

00:40:51.680 in in trying to you know basically answer the question that you were asking that what makes a good play

00:40:59.020 so we were identifying some elements that again you know parents or teachers can consider when they are

00:41:05.860 thinking about you know how they want their children to play whether it's indoors or outdoors

00:41:09.700 and one of those important aspects is and indicators and factors is the what we call self-directedness

00:41:17.040 which means that that the kids should be allowed to you know take a lead and lead the way when they are

00:41:24.200 playing rather than you know somebody telling them what to do on giving them the rules and regulations

00:41:29.940 sometimes this is good as well but in in in a kind of a higher order play this self-directed action and

00:41:36.620 activity is uh is a good one and then the other thing is that i think you know the children should

00:41:44.200 when they're playing that they should really feel that they they do it because they they they want to do

00:41:49.060 it themselves that they are not playing because their mother or father asked them to do or they are not

00:41:53.600 playing because the the recess coach is you know asking or expecting them to do some something like this

00:41:59.820 i think the the play also has to have a positive kind of emotion that it has to be

00:42:05.500 the kids have to feel more these positive emotions joy and happiness than they they fear kind of a

00:42:12.220 negative excitement or or fear that sometimes belong to the play as well and then i think

00:42:18.940 another important part that parents can also consider when they're thinking about the children's play is the

00:42:24.560 to what extent this activity will engage them in you know using their imagination how much the

00:42:31.500 the children feel that they're curious about things that they're doing whether it's a play or something

00:42:36.420 else because the curiosity and you know using actively using your imagination are the key things for this

00:42:43.860 kind of a creative action and creative thinking to to take place so these are some of those things that

00:42:50.020 we describe this in detail in a book that you know those people who are interested in

00:42:54.640 you know different different kind of qualities or different levels of play

00:42:58.580 and if particularly if you if you want to make sure that your child when she or he is playing is

00:43:04.520 is really getting a good experience that these are some of those questions that you can ask and

00:43:10.000 make sure that they are included in this process of play well pause it's been a great conversation

00:43:16.160 where can people go to learn more about the book in your work well you can come and see me here in

00:43:20.820 in this in town under in australia happy to see anybody who is traveling this way at some point when the

00:43:26.020 borders are open but i have my own website uh it's called pazisalberg.com where i try to keep all my

00:43:33.780 work related things and obviously i invite everybody to to read our book let the children play that has

00:43:40.960 is it like a longer story written for particularly for north american parents and teachers to you know

00:43:48.320 have these conversations that we have been having here this morning but you know take a read of the

00:43:53.260 book and and if you like it let me know if you have any questions i'm very happy to happy to have a

00:43:58.060 chat all right posse salberg thank you for your time it's been a pleasure thank you brett well i guess

00:44:03.000 there's posse salberg he's the author of the book let the children play it's available on amazon.com

00:44:06.800 and bookstores everywhere you can find more information about his work at his website

00:44:09.540 posse salberg.com also check out our show notes at aom.is play where you can find links to

00:44:14.040 resources where you delve deeper into this topic

00:44:15.860 well that wraps up another edition of the aon podcast make sure to check out our website at

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00:45:01.860 you

The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

Let the Children Play!

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