The Art of Manliness - Magic, Archetypes, and the Mysteries of the Unconscious

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.080 There are two parts of the mind, the conscious and the unconscious.

00:00:14.640 While the former dominates your attention, the latter actually occupies far more of the

00:00:18.620 brain, influencing your mood, generating inspiration, and making you who you are, all behind the

00:00:24.000 scenes.

00:00:24.640 My guests would argue that to become all you're meant to be, you have to make your unconscious

00:00:28.460 mind your ally, and that this may be life's most important task.

00:00:32.120 His name is Daniel Z. Lieberman, and he's a psychiatrist and the author of Spellbound,

00:00:36.100 Modern Science, Ancient Magic, and the Hidden Potential of the Unconscious Mind.

00:00:40.020 Today on the show, Daniel first offers an overview of the nature, function, and study of the

00:00:43.760 unconscious.

00:00:44.620 From there, we discuss Carl Jung's perspective on the unconscious and his ideas around its

00:00:48.400 archetypes and shadows.

00:00:49.940 We then get into the way that things which are connected to magic and the supernatural,

00:00:53.440 like fairy tales and tarot cards, can be seen as manifestations of the energy of the unconscious.

00:00:58.460 And his age-old attempts to confront and understand it.

00:01:01.420 We end our discussion by talking about the quest for individuation, which requires bringing

00:01:05.480 together the conscious and the unconscious minds, and how to go about tapping into the

00:01:09.140 power of the unconscious to become a kind of magician yourself.

00:01:12.260 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash unconscious.

00:01:15.380 All right, Daniel Lieberman, welcome back to the show.

00:01:28.280 Thanks so much for having me.

00:01:29.520 So you are a clinical professor of psychiatry at George Washington University, and we had

00:01:34.280 you on the podcast a few years ago to talk about a book you co-authored called The Molecule

00:01:38.280 of More, which is all about dopamine and its influence on our lives.

00:01:42.120 You got a new book out, and it's called Spellbound.

00:01:45.200 And in this book, you explore the unconscious in our lives and its connection to, and this

00:01:50.000 is interesting, a magical worldview.

00:01:53.220 So how did you go from dopamine to the unconscious and fairy tales and mystical numbers and things

00:01:59.620 like that?

00:02:00.640 Well, you know, it's all based on the work I do as a psychiatrist.

00:02:03.960 It really follows the aphorism on the Temple of Delphi, which you're probably familiar with,

00:02:09.220 and that is know thyself.

00:02:11.440 I got a lot of wonderful feedback about The Molecule of More, in which people said that

00:02:17.560 it enabled them to better understand what was going on in their brain and not necessarily

00:02:23.420 identify with all of those thoughts, all of those desires, that they had the opportunity

00:02:28.960 to evaluate them, judge them, and decide what's best for them.

00:02:33.080 So in Spellbound, I take that to the next level because there is so much going on in

00:02:40.240 our head that comes out of our unconscious.

00:02:43.100 And we have a tendency to either ignore it or to identify with it.

00:02:48.320 But I think, in fact, the most important thing is to recognize that in some ways it's

00:02:53.800 coming from an alien place.

00:02:55.900 We need to learn to understand it and to accommodate it.

00:02:59.020 Okay, so your whole, the dopamine book kind of helped people understand there's something

00:03:03.520 going on in their brain, right?

00:03:04.900 It's like why they want to do things and why they get tired of things that they once enjoyed.

00:03:09.780 And this led to this idea of the unconscious.

00:03:12.360 I think all of us, I mean, this idea of the unconscious has filtered into the popular culture

00:03:17.040 and we know about it.

00:03:19.040 But I don't think a lot of people understand it from like what you do, like this research

00:03:22.680 backed approach to the unconscious.

00:03:24.420 So as a psychiatrist, what is the unconscious?

00:03:27.080 The unconscious is any brain activity that we're not directly aware of and that we don't

00:03:35.560 have direct control over.

00:03:37.360 And that spans a very wide range of things.

00:03:40.440 So it can be as simple as the parts of your brain that control your blood pressure, your

00:03:44.720 heart rate, and your hormone secretion.

00:03:46.920 Or it can be as sophisticated as the parts of your brain that generate inspiration in which

00:03:52.720 it hands you incredibly complicated knowledge that seems to come out of nowhere.

00:03:58.100 And how does this unconscious differ from conscious thought?

00:04:02.080 Conscious thought, it tends to be very linear.

00:04:05.640 It's based on language.

00:04:07.060 You know, when we think in our own head, we generally think with language and it's rather

00:04:12.200 slow and it's good at solving problems with logic.

00:04:16.420 It's really what makes us human, what sets us aside from the other animals.

00:04:22.540 The unconscious, on the other hand, is very, very fast.

00:04:26.000 It does all kinds of different things in parallel and it doesn't use language.

00:04:31.760 It's more likely to use emotion.

00:04:34.800 And the unconscious is really the animal part of human beings.

00:04:38.600 And I think the split really emphasizes the strange aspects of the human condition, that

00:04:45.600 we are part angel, part animal.

00:04:48.800 And I think that those track pretty nicely with the conscious and the unconscious minds.

00:04:53.240 So I think you talk about in the book, the conscious thought is typically top down, right?

00:04:57.440 So we are dictating how our attention is directed.

00:05:02.300 Unconscious thought is bottom up.

00:05:06.060 Yep, that's right.

00:05:06.860 We say top down because conscious thought seems to arise in the frontal lobes, right

00:05:12.320 behind the forehead.

00:05:13.880 And the commands that we make to our body and other things, they flow downwards, whereas

00:05:19.120 the unconscious represents deeper structures and those come upwards into the prefrontal cortex

00:05:24.000 where we become aware of them.

00:05:25.860 So you mentioned unconscious thought.

00:05:26.920 We use that for bodily functions, breathing, heart beating, sleeping, just reflexes.

00:05:32.580 But you said they can get really sophisticated.

00:05:34.500 I mean, what are some examples of more sophisticated uses of the unconscious?

00:05:40.120 I think that one we're all familiar with is the gut feeling.

00:05:44.000 Think back to when you were choosing a college to go to.

00:05:47.920 You visited a bunch of them, you read the literature, and you were probably absolutely overwhelmed by the

00:05:53.900 amount of variables that you had to sift through.

00:05:55.960 How well it was rated, what you thought of the dormitory, the dining hall, et cetera.

00:06:02.420 But at some point, you probably got a gut feeling about which one was right for you.

00:06:08.460 And you probably had an enormous amount of confidence in that gut feeling, but you had no idea where it came from.

00:06:14.080 And I think the gift of fear guy, Gavin DeBecker, he did studies on firefighters, right?

00:06:19.160 They can look at a building and they can tell whether this building is about to collapse.

00:06:24.460 And it's based on, there's nothing really top down going on.

00:06:27.760 It's just based on years of experience.

00:06:29.760 They say, well, the fire's doing this.

00:06:31.120 The building looks like this.

00:06:32.280 I better avoid going to that building because it will probably collapse on me.

00:06:35.840 Yeah, and it's the same with doctors.

00:06:38.900 We call it pattern recognition, that we think that we're applying information we got from lectures and textbooks.

00:06:45.580 But in fact, the best doctors are ones who have seen the most patients.

00:06:50.120 And unconsciously, they recognize patterns, and that gives them the answer in terms of treatment.

00:06:54.920 So the conscious thoughts, typically, it starts top down.

00:06:57.060 So like the prefrontal cortex.

00:06:58.440 So the prefrontal cortex is the part that developed last in our evolution.

00:07:03.280 And that's where conscious thought typically is at.

00:07:06.220 Like where is unconscious thought taking place at?

00:07:08.980 All the rest of the brain.

00:07:10.880 Consciousness represents a tiny sliver of our brain activity.

00:07:15.560 You may have seen the metaphor of the iceberg, where you've got a tiny bit floating above the surface,

00:07:21.180 representing the conscious mind, and then the vast majority of it underneath the water.

00:07:26.600 And in fact, it's been estimated that the unconscious mind is able to process information

00:07:32.000 a half a million times more rapidly than the conscious mind.

00:07:36.520 And that's why it uses such a large part of the brain compared to the conscious mind.

00:07:40.920 Because it's doing things in parallel, correct?

00:07:42.860 It's doing things in parallel.

00:07:43.980 Yeah, it's got the heart rate.

00:07:45.440 It's managing literally millions of muscle fibers to maintain your posture.

00:07:51.780 And it's doing a whole bunch of other things besides.

00:07:53.580 So this idea of the conscious and unconscious was first developed probably or made popular by Freud.

00:08:00.840 What was Freud's idea of the conscious and unconscious and how they interacted with each other?

00:08:06.360 Freud viewed the unconscious mind as essentially a place where the conscious mind put things that were unacceptable to it.

00:08:15.020 And so primarily sexual urges.

00:08:17.900 Freud really tended to trace everything back to the sexual drive, but also things like anger and hatred and murderous feelings.

00:08:26.740 And so for Freud, the unconscious was really this cesspit of the very worst of humanity.

00:08:33.760 And then one of his students was this guy named Jung.

00:08:37.340 And he took Freud's idea of the conscious and unconscious, but he did something different with it.

00:08:41.880 How did he change this idea?

00:08:43.160 So Carl Jung also realized that we tend to do this.

00:08:49.420 We tend to reject the worst parts of us and push them down into the unconscious.

00:08:54.840 And he called that aspect of the unconscious the shadow.

00:08:58.460 But he realized that there was far more to it.

00:09:02.280 Whereas Freud derived all of unconscious behavior from the sex drive.

00:09:07.480 Jung looked at other animals and he looked at the complexity of their instincts.

00:09:13.160 For example, ants form colonies and they're farmers.

00:09:17.260 They raise lichen that they eat.

00:09:19.500 They're ranchers.

00:09:20.820 They raise aphids that produce a sugary liquid that they can get nutrition from.

00:09:25.680 He looked at the weaver bird, which weaves these incredibly complex nests.

00:09:29.800 And he said, if these animals have such complex instincts, it's just not reasonable to think that human instinct all flows from the simple sex drive.

00:09:40.840 And he began exploring human instincts.

00:09:43.500 And just as the human brain is far more complicated than animal brains, he found that human instincts are also far more complicated.

00:09:51.680 And he realized that the unconscious encompassed so much more than what Freud thought.

00:09:57.960 And since then, Freud and Jung, they're looked, I mean, I guess today, they're looked at askance.

00:10:03.320 They think, okay, they had some interesting ideas, but it's theoretical.

00:10:07.060 It's almost like metaphysical, philosophical.

00:10:10.140 There's nothing.

00:10:10.640 There's really no hard data.

00:10:12.220 What's the state of the research in the unconscious today?

00:10:15.700 The researchers are approaching the unconscious the way any good scientist does.

00:10:24.200 And that is you collect data and you approach it from an empirical standpoint before you begin to put together theories.

00:10:32.840 Freud and Jung didn't have access to the same kinds of research tools that we have today.

00:10:38.820 And so really the only data they had to go on was their experience with their patients.

00:10:43.640 And so they did a lot of theorizing and a whole lot less data collection.

00:10:49.560 Today it's the opposite.

00:10:51.500 And it's very, very helpful to have that data.

00:10:54.020 And I included a significant amount of it in the book.

00:10:57.280 But the problem is that even today, hundreds of years after Freud and Jung, our ability to study the brain empirically is still extremely primitive.

00:11:08.060 People have said that the human brain is probably the most complex structure in the entire universe.

00:11:15.100 And so psychiatry as a science is a little bit behind some of the other specialties like cardiology, for example, simply because our organ is so complicated.

00:11:25.500 So neuroscience has shed some light on the unconscious, but it's still at a very early stage.

00:11:31.400 So how do researchers study the unconscious?

00:11:33.820 Because the unconscious, you're not aware of it, right?

00:11:36.280 I can see there's studies where you can study the conscious, right?

00:11:40.380 Everyone knows like the marshmallow test, which is basically a study in self-control, which is the study of the conscious, right?

00:11:45.220 You put a marshmallow in front of a kid and you tell them, well, if you don't eat that marshmallow for a certain amount of time, we'll give you more marshmallows.

00:11:51.580 And so you can actually see what's going on.

00:11:53.480 But the unconscious, like how do you tell if what's going on in the unconscious when you can't, the person doesn't even know what's going on?

00:12:02.320 It's difficult.

00:12:03.340 It's difficult.

00:12:04.020 There's been different ways that it's been approached.

00:12:06.620 Often it involves tricking the conscious mind to make it think like the task is something other than is actually being measured.

00:12:15.040 And then with the conscious mind doing something else, what you're really measuring is what the unconscious mind is coming up with.

00:12:22.760 But they've come up with other ways as well.

00:12:25.340 As I mentioned, the conscious mind has a pretty small bandwidth.

00:12:30.020 And so another thing that scientists do is they overwhelm the bandwidth of the conscious mind so that only the unconscious is free to work through a problem or a task.

00:12:39.580 Are there any studies that stand out to you that can kind of exemplify what they do to look at this unconscious stuff?

00:12:45.920 You know, one that comes to mind is what I call the Amsterdam Apartment Study.

00:12:50.880 This was a study in which they used the strategy of overwhelming the conscious mind.

00:12:55.980 They showed volunteers, I believe it was three or four apartments, and they gave them a whole list of features of each apartment, more than a dozen for each one.

00:13:06.400 And then they asked them, which apartment do you think is the best?

00:13:10.800 Now, the way that they had set it up was that one was objectively better, one was objectively worse, and the other two were in between.

00:13:20.220 And what they did was they divided them up into three groups.

00:13:24.520 The first group, they said, okay, read the descriptions, and then bam, make a snap decision right away.

00:13:30.680 And they didn't do very well.

00:13:32.240 They picked the undesirable one as often as the desirable one.

00:13:36.160 It was really random chance.

00:13:38.360 The second group, they allowed the conscious mind to work on it.

00:13:42.260 They said, read the description.

00:13:43.960 Now we're going to give you three minutes to work your way through the problem.

00:13:47.880 Try to figure out which is the best one.

00:13:50.700 They had the same experience as the snap deciders.

00:13:53.540 It was basically at random.

00:13:55.260 The third group, after they had them read the descriptions, they distracted them by having them solve anagrams.

00:14:03.720 That's like a word jumble.

00:14:05.700 You jumble up the letters, and you have to figure out what the original word was.

00:14:10.080 That takes up all the bandwidth of the conscious mind.

00:14:14.160 And so in that case, for those three minutes, only the unconscious mind could work on the problem,

00:14:19.160 and those people chose the desirable apartment at a rate better than chance.

00:14:23.920 So it sounds like the conscious is really good at simple, linear problems.

00:14:29.280 But the unconscious, it's better at solving those problems that are really complex, right,

00:14:33.020 when there's a lot of factors involved.

00:14:35.140 That's right.

00:14:35.900 The other advantage that the conscious mind has is that it can come up with precise answers.

00:14:40.720 The answers the unconscious mind come up with tend to be impressionistic.

00:14:45.060 For example, if you're thinking about entering into a business venture with someone,

00:14:49.220 you might ask your unconscious mind, can this person be trusted?

00:14:53.560 And you'd get an impressionistic gut feeling kind of an answer,

00:14:57.040 but you'd want your conscious mind to calculate the potential return on your money.

00:15:01.820 And those gut impressions, they're based on its pattern recognition.

00:15:05.480 You think back, well, what does this person match up with trustworthy people that I've experienced in the past?

00:15:11.340 That's right.

00:15:12.080 And the unconscious is picking up on all kinds of things that the conscious mind is missing.

00:15:17.380 The unconscious mind might be noticing that people who hold their head in a certain way

00:15:21.560 or walk in a certain way are more or less trustworthy.

00:15:25.380 And we have no idea what kind of data it's working with,

00:15:28.700 but we do know that the stuff it comes up with is often better than what the conscious mind can come up with.

00:15:34.420 Well, a point you made is that in our materialistic world where we put a primacy on the conscious,

00:15:40.120 which is, again, the conscious mind is great.

00:15:42.100 A lot of us do a lot of great things, but we downplay the unconscious.

00:15:45.960 But what research is showing is that by downplaying the unconscious and how we interact with the world,

00:15:51.960 it actually makes understanding the world harder, even the scientific world.

00:15:57.020 And you gave this, I thought this was really interesting.

00:15:58.960 Scientists who are researching animals or even just objects,

00:16:01.880 there's this tendency that you want to be just focused on the data

00:16:06.120 and you don't want to anthropomorphize the animals.

00:16:09.540 Like think that they're like Disney creatures, right?

00:16:11.460 That they have personalities.

00:16:12.680 But the research shows that when they don't do that,

00:16:15.680 they actually make worse decisions or worse conclusions about the data.

00:16:19.260 What's going on there?

00:16:21.080 Yeah, you know, the unconscious mind does have this tendency to anthropomorphize,

00:16:25.920 to treat things as if they were human beings.

00:16:29.240 You know, a lot of people talk to their cars.

00:16:32.200 If you have a favorite shirt, you might not want people to mistreat it.

00:16:37.420 Not because it's going to get damaged,

00:16:38.800 but because you have this kind of unconscious sense that it has feelings.

00:16:43.700 And we do that with animals more than anything else.

00:16:47.800 And some scientists wrote that they said anthropomorphizing animals

00:16:51.800 is actually the cardinal crime of the animal researcher.

00:16:56.020 And the reason is that animals' brains simply don't work the way human brains do.

00:17:02.600 And if we assume that they do, we are going to make all kinds of mistakes.

00:17:08.540 And so these primate researchers at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center,

00:17:13.040 famous center, decided that this was a reasonable criticism.

00:17:16.940 And so that they decided that for a period of two years,

00:17:19.980 they were not going to do any anthropomorphizing at all.

00:17:23.880 They were just going to simply record the behavior straight.

00:17:27.060 And they were pretty surprised at what happened.

00:17:30.000 Their brains were not able to make sense of the animal's behavior.

00:17:34.900 They could no longer distinguish individual animals and understand their behavior.

00:17:40.760 When they allowed themselves to go back to anthropomorphizing,

00:17:44.500 everything fell into place.

00:17:45.880 And once again, things became intelligible.

00:17:48.780 And so I think that the takeaway lesson from that is that our unconscious mind is not perfect.

00:17:57.240 It's going to lead us into errors.

00:17:59.900 It's going to make us see the world in a way that is not always factually true.

00:18:05.640 But this is what we got.

00:18:07.420 And if we try to reject it because we want a perfect understanding,

00:18:12.460 the opposite is going to happen, and our understanding is going to completely fall apart.

00:18:16.880 Yeah, you even highlight like engineers and physicists will do this with objects or particles.

00:18:20.940 Like, well, this particle is acting weird or cranky,

00:18:24.380 and it helps them understand what's going on, the data they're seeing.

00:18:28.320 Yeah, that's right.

00:18:29.140 Particle physics, when they have trouble finding a particle, they call it shy.

00:18:33.600 Meteorologists talk about raging storms.

00:18:35.940 Doctors talk about stubborn infections and aggressive tumors.

00:18:41.620 When I was a resident, there was a faculty member who tried to get other doctors to stop doing that

00:18:47.520 because they said, look, if you call this tumor aggressive,

00:18:50.960 you're going to jump to conclusions that aren't true.

00:18:54.340 You need to understand it from a biochemical point of view.

00:18:57.580 And everybody said, yeah, what you're saying is logical.

00:19:00.800 But in fact, based on what we know today, he was wrong because what he was doing was handicapping 0.76

00:19:07.580 his own brain by not allowing it to function at its best.

00:19:12.020 So again, the unconscious, it can lead you astray, but it can provide useful insights.

00:19:15.560 And the goal is, I guess what the research is suggesting is learning how to tap into the unconscious

00:19:19.960 is without being led astray.

00:19:22.740 I think so.

00:19:23.900 Or I think maybe a more provocative way of putting it is that we have to accept the fact

00:19:30.380 that we will be led astray.

00:19:32.860 You know, just like nothing is perfect and we don't expect perfection from things.

00:19:37.700 And the unconscious mind is the same.

00:19:39.800 If we don't rely on it, we're not going to be using our full brain.

00:19:43.260 We're not going to achieve our full capacity.

00:19:45.020 If we do rely on it, we are going to make occasional mistakes, but we don't really have

00:19:49.700 much of a choice.

00:19:51.020 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:19:57.040 And now back to the show.

00:19:59.560 So let's get into this magic part of your book, Spellbound.

00:20:03.440 And so what you do is you take a look at the work of Jung and see how this idea of the

00:20:09.140 unconscious is connected to a magic worldview.

00:20:11.500 How did Jung see the unconscious and sort of the, I'm going to call it the magic worldview.

00:20:18.400 How are they connected?

00:20:20.020 So I think it's helpful if we start by reviewing some of the things we talked about that the

00:20:25.040 unconscious does.

00:20:26.420 So the unconscious is responsible for emotion.

00:20:29.660 It can make us the happiest person in the world.

00:20:32.320 It can throw us into a rage.

00:20:34.480 It can make us hate the people that we love.

00:20:37.580 The unconscious is responsible for inspiration.

00:20:40.180 It can inspire a work of art.

00:20:42.700 It can inspire a scientific breakthrough.

00:20:46.460 Traditionally, these kinds of experiences have been attributed to the gods.

00:20:51.580 They've been attributed to supernatural creatures, gods and goddesses, spirits and demons.

00:20:57.720 And so Jung's insight was that all of these stories we have about magic, myths, folklore, fairy

00:21:04.700 tales, these are actually stories that shed light on what goes on in the unconscious mind.

00:21:11.260 And because they've been refined over millennia, these are actually the most sophisticated tools

00:21:16.760 we have to understand the unconscious mind and learn how to come to terms with it.

00:21:21.560 Okay.

00:21:21.700 So what he did is he looked at cultures from around the world, the stories, the myths, the

00:21:26.640 religions, et cetera, to see what they all had in common.

00:21:29.860 And then from there, you can kind of make these conclusions about, well, maybe this is something

00:21:34.520 about the unconscious.

00:21:36.360 That's right.

00:21:37.040 It's highly suspicious when you have cultures that are different in so many ways, telling 1.00

00:21:41.820 stories about the supernatural that have lots and lots of things in common.

00:21:46.120 And what Jung concluded was that just as all human beings have a common physiology, we've

00:21:52.480 got two arms, two legs, one nose, one mouth, et cetera, we also have a common psychology.

00:21:59.900 Our brains are all based on pretty much the same DNA.

00:22:04.880 And that leads to a common psychology.

00:22:07.240 And so based on that, it's not surprising that the most important themes that stories were

00:22:12.800 made about are the same in all cultures.

00:22:15.580 Is this what he called the collective unconscious?

00:22:18.720 Exactly.

00:22:19.340 The collective unconscious and the themes of the archetypes.

00:22:22.140 Well, let's talk about archetypes.

00:22:23.560 For Jung, what is an archetype?

00:22:26.400 An archetype is a kind of an instinct.

00:22:29.820 It's a pattern of thought that we're born with, that we don't have to learn.

00:22:35.220 It's part of the common physiology that we all share.

00:22:39.560 Now, the way that the archetypes manifest themselves, though, are going to be different for each person

00:22:44.960 and so Jung compared the archetype to sort of a water course.

00:22:49.760 This directs the direction of the water, but the water itself is going to be different for everyone.

00:22:56.960 So the archetypes are the basic psychological instinctual foundations that all humans have in common.

00:23:04.260 So what are some examples of archetypes?

00:23:06.680 I think the most important archetype is the mother archetype.

00:23:11.180 And one of the things about archetypes is that they are so big, so powerful, and so influential

00:23:18.480 that it's not possible for us to consciously apprehend the archetype in full.

00:23:23.660 And I think we can see that with the concept of motherhood.

00:23:27.980 Think of all the books, all the stories that have been told that involve mother

00:23:33.260 and how each one of them reveals a different aspect of one's relationship to one's mother.

00:23:40.180 This symbolism of mother includes nutrition. 0.76

00:23:43.000 It includes love.

00:23:44.740 It includes encouragement.

00:23:46.020 It also includes things like criticism and restrictions and being smothered.

00:23:53.940 It's an enormous concept, and it's impossible to delineate all of the things that it represents.

00:24:00.340 So you mentioned symbols.

00:24:02.320 I think sometimes when people hear the word archetype, they think it's a symbol of something bigger.

00:24:07.560 But you actually made the distinction.

00:24:08.520 There's a distinction between symbols and archetypes.

00:24:10.860 So what's the difference between the two?

00:24:12.020 So a symbol, in a way, is something that we can see with our senses, but is connected to the archetype.

00:24:21.800 It's like an energy transformer that takes the energy of the archetype and makes it available to the conscious mind.

00:24:30.240 So one example I give in the book is a wedding ring.

00:24:33.900 And I should mention, I think it's helpful, actually, to start by distinguishing symbols from signs.

00:24:39.800 Signs are things that have a very clear meaning, and they have a one-to-one correspondence with the things that they signify.

00:24:49.100 So, for example, the letters O-R-A-N-G, that signifies the fruit, orange.

00:24:55.500 Everybody knows exactly what it means.

00:24:58.220 The golden arches signify McDonald's.

00:25:00.940 There's no ambiguity about what that is.

00:25:04.500 Symbols, on the other hand, point to archetypes.

00:25:07.360 And archetypes are unknowable.

00:25:09.800 And so what the symbols symbolize are also unknowable.

00:25:15.100 It's not something that we can fully capture in words or fully understand.

00:25:20.220 So let's think about a wedding ring.

00:25:23.100 There are things about the wedding ring that we can understand, but the kinds of feelings it provokes are often things that can't be put into words.

00:25:32.200 So, for example, if somebody lost their wedding ring, well, they could just go to the store and buy another one.

00:25:39.540 But it's not that simple.

00:25:41.540 There are some things about the wedding ring, some feelings that it triggers, that go beyond simply a band of gold.

00:25:48.760 It taps into the unconscious, and as a result, it's a very potent symbol, a very potent magical object in some ways.

00:25:57.040 So I've read the books.

00:25:58.720 I'm sure some of our listeners have read them by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette.

00:26:03.100 It's King, Warrior, Magician, Lover.

00:26:05.460 And it's like rediscovering the archetypes of the mature masculine.

00:26:08.260 And that's kind of shaped my idea of what I think about archetypes.

00:26:10.760 Like they had different archetypes, like the king archetype represented like the power and potency and creation and order.

00:26:20.240 And like symbols of that archetype would be things like a crown or a scepter or something like that.

00:26:26.360 Is that, are we on the same page?

00:26:27.920 Is that kind of what you're talking about here?

00:26:30.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:31.260 And think how it must have felt to King Charles to have that crown placed upon his head.

00:26:38.080 And I think it must have triggered incredibly intense feelings that he could not fully understand.

00:26:43.620 So I think the crown is a great example of a symbol.

00:26:46.440 All right.

00:26:46.560 So yeah, archetypes is like it's energy in like, or sort of his thought patterns in our unconscious.

00:26:51.280 Symbols allow us to kind of tap into that.

00:26:53.640 It's sort of like, I think you have, you actually have that example.

00:26:56.460 Like the unconscious is sort of like an oil well or like an untapped water reservoir.

00:27:00.480 And then the symbols allow, it's sort of like drilling into there and letting that stuff come into the conscious mind.

00:27:06.640 Yeah.

00:27:06.880 Yeah.

00:27:07.100 Yeah.

00:27:07.380 Another example is the flag.

00:27:09.320 We hear all kinds of stories of a demoralized army.

00:27:13.620 Somebody picks up the flag, waves it around, and suddenly everybody is full of energy.

00:27:19.240 They're ready to go and they win the battle.

00:27:21.700 The flag was a symbol that allowed them to tap into this power in their unconscious that allowed them to turn the tide of the battle.

00:27:28.960 So you mentioned, according to Jung, our unconscious has a shadow part.

00:27:34.580 Is the shadow the same thing as an archetype?

00:27:37.680 It's not, no.

00:27:39.700 The archetypes are part of the collective unconscious that we all have in common.

00:27:44.200 The shadow is a more superficial part of the unconscious, closer to consciousness.

00:27:49.820 And that's part of what Jung called the personal unconscious.

00:27:53.480 And it contains things that were once conscious, but we pushed away.

00:27:59.140 Okay.

00:27:59.960 And so, I mean, what are the problems of the shadow?

00:28:02.200 How do they manifest in our lives?

00:28:04.080 So, the shadow is the worst of us.

00:28:07.720 It's all the parts of us that we don't want to admit exist.

00:28:11.720 And so, we push it down into the unconscious.

00:28:14.440 And we think that we've fixed the problem, but in fact, we haven't.

00:28:19.140 Because what happens is that we lose control over it.

00:28:22.840 Once they go down into the shadow, they become autonomous.

00:28:26.200 And that's why we hear about people who will often behave in extremely uncharacteristic ways,

00:28:34.120 in ways that can sometimes destroy their careers, destroy their marriages, destroy their life.

00:28:41.540 And the way we talk about it, I think, harkens back to this idea that we tend to link the unconscious with the supernatural.

00:28:49.280 We say, what on earth possessed him to do that?

00:28:52.900 I love the use of the word possession, right?

00:28:54.780 What possessed him to do that?

00:28:56.920 It's almost as if the person were taken over by some demon.

00:29:01.520 And in fact, they were.

00:29:02.880 Because demons are just the way we talk about agents in the unconscious.

00:29:07.000 And they were taken over by this agent in their shadow that they unwisely pushed away from consciousness.

00:29:14.000 So, what do you do with this?

00:29:14.960 How do you deal with that?

00:29:16.140 If you push it down and it just will kind of erupt in a place that's maladaptive, what do you do with the shadow?

00:29:22.520 We all behave in ways that we don't like.

00:29:24.780 On a daily basis, we will snap at people that we love and feel bad about it afterwards.

00:29:32.080 And there's two ways to deal with that.

00:29:33.980 One way is to try to forget about it and think about something else because it's painful.

00:29:38.940 But the other way is to really embrace it and say, this is a part of me.

00:29:45.320 This is a part of me I don't like.

00:29:47.160 And this is a part of me that I don't have control over.

00:29:50.840 But the more that we accept it, the more that we can control it.

00:29:55.580 And so, I think the trick is to allow ourselves to feel these negative feelings, the anger, the envy, the jealousy.

00:30:05.960 If we allow ourselves to feel them without pushing away, we're less likely to act on them.

00:30:11.920 And so, we give them full access to our mind, to our consciousness, whereas we give them no access at all to our behavior.

00:30:22.700 I mean, are there benefits of the shadow?

00:30:24.240 Like, I mean, there's downsides obviously, but does it come with benefits?

00:30:28.200 It does.

00:30:28.920 There's an enormous amount of primitive energy in there.

00:30:32.900 I told a story about a doctor who became infuriated with a colleague, and that fury enabled him to write a protocol that would prove his colleague was absolutely wrong.

00:30:44.100 You know, many of us know about the energy and kind of the joy that can come to breaking the rules.

00:30:50.860 You know, if you sneak up on the roof where you're not allowed to be at night to watch the city lights, you're full of energy.

00:30:57.540 You're full of excitement.

00:30:58.920 That's coming from the shadow.

00:31:00.820 That kind of thing only comes when you break the rules.

00:31:05.080 So, even though the shadow contains a lot of ugliness, it also contains a lot of beneficial stuff, the primitive energy that we can really make use of.

00:31:15.540 So, you have this chapter about fairy tales can be used as a way for us to tap into the power of the unconscious.

00:31:23.520 Walk us through this idea.

00:31:24.540 So, as I mentioned, when people were trying to make sense of the unconscious, it was so powerful and so alien that they conceived them as supernatural creatures.

00:31:38.540 And that's what fairy tales are about.

00:31:40.540 Fairy tales are about magic, about creatures that possess superhuman power.

00:31:46.160 And what's interesting is that in a lot of cases, these magical creatures are animals.

00:31:53.100 And that makes so much sense because the unconscious is the bestial part of the human mind.

00:31:59.820 And in many cases, it is the characters in the fairy tales who are able to make friends with the magical animals who win out in the end.

00:32:10.200 And a lot of times, these characters are not the smartest, they are certainly not the richest, and they may not even be the strongest.

00:32:18.580 But what they are is the most trusting.

00:32:21.640 They find these magical creatures.

00:32:23.600 The magical creatures often give them advice that doesn't make any sense.

00:32:26.840 But the ones who trust them and do what they say are the ones who win their kingdom in the end.

00:32:33.160 Is there a fairy tale in particular that you think really highlights the power of story and helping us kind of confront and manage our unconscious?

00:32:42.020 One of the ones I like is The Golden Bird.

00:32:44.500 That's a story about three brothers who go off in search of this golden bird that will renew the kingdom.

00:32:51.220 And along the way, each of them meets a magical fox that gives them advice.

00:32:57.500 The two older brothers are self-sufficient.

00:33:00.000 They don't need the advice of the magical help. 1.00

00:33:02.380 They say, how stupid it would be for me to take advice from a lowly animal. 0.94

00:33:07.340 But the third brother, who is a little bit weaker, he's the youngest, he's not quite as bright, but he's very kind. 0.99

00:33:13.120 He says, okay, little fox, you know, let's be friends.

00:33:16.320 I'll help you, you help me.

00:33:17.860 And what happens is that the fox gives him advice about finding this bird.

00:33:24.060 And the boy thinks the advice doesn't make any sense.

00:33:27.960 And so he keeps doing the opposite of what the fox says.

00:33:32.220 And the fox gets frustrated with him, but the fox doesn't give up.

00:33:35.920 The fox keeps trying and trying and trying to establish this trusting relationship.

00:33:41.700 Eventually, he does, and then everything goes well.

00:33:45.100 And I think that what that tells us is that establishing a working relationship with our unconscious mind is not easy because it's so different from consciousness.

00:33:55.820 It's so alien.

00:33:57.200 It's going to take time, but that's okay.

00:34:00.880 It's a marathon.

00:34:02.020 It's not a sprint.

00:34:03.380 We don't have to get it right the first time.

00:34:05.740 I think that coming to terms with our unconscious mind is probably the most important thing we do in life.

00:34:12.820 And so it would be naive to think that it would be simple or something we would get right on the first try.

00:34:18.140 Yeah.

00:34:18.380 Okay.

00:34:18.740 So I think a lot of the fairy tales are about that.

00:34:20.640 And I think in modern times, poets like Robert Bly back in the 80s, like the Iron John thing, it was all about the unconscious becoming integrated with the conscious.

00:34:30.860 And stories can help you do that.

00:34:33.980 Jung also explored other ways that people have tried to tap into and to understand the unconscious, often unconsciously, like they don't know they're doing it.

00:34:43.220 And that includes things like alchemy and also tarot cards.

00:34:47.240 Jungian psychologists, they're also known as depth psychologists, past and present.

00:34:50.980 They've used tarot cards to explore archetypes and things like that.

00:34:54.700 I also know Jordan Peterson, like he's used tarot to explore psychological concepts and archetypes.

00:35:01.380 But I think when most people think of tarot, they think of mystical old ladies telling you your fortune or they think about the occult, but they weren't initially used for that.

00:35:11.300 So how can tarot cards be seen as a sometimes unconscious attempt to explore the unconscious?

00:35:18.060 Yeah.

00:35:18.320 You know, the tarot was created just simply as a deck of cards and it was just created to be used for fun.

00:35:24.460 There was nothing special about it.

00:35:27.020 There was nothing about the supernatural, but it was created in Italy during the Renaissance and naturally they wanted to make these cards look pretty.

00:35:35.800 So what they did was they put philosophical and mystical symbols on them because it was during the Renaissance that the ancient Greek philosophy had been rediscovered in Europe.

00:35:47.720 And everybody was very, very excited about it.

00:35:50.000 You see these symbols in all kinds of Renaissance art.

00:35:52.980 And so the card makers just grabbed these symbols from art and they decorated their cards with it, not really giving it a second thought except to say, it's pretty and it's fun.

00:36:04.040 Now, what happened was it turns out that these symbols were actually incredibly powerful and that's why they lasted the thousands of years between the classical period and the Renaissance.

00:36:15.720 And the mystical symbols worked on people's unconscious mind over the years, different tarot decks were designed by different people.

00:36:25.480 And what they would do is they would retain the things that were psychologically most powerful, throw away the things that didn't work.

00:36:32.320 And so it became this crowdsourced work where over the years, little by little, it evolved into something more and more psychologically powerful until finally it started, became so powerful psychologically, people began to think it had magical powers and began using it for divination.

00:36:50.320 So what are some examples of the symbols in the tarot? 0.94

00:36:52.780 All right, so the first card is called the fool and you look at it and it's hard to say why it's a fool. 0.88

00:37:01.520 It's a very handsome young man. 0.99

00:37:04.780 He's got a bindle on his shoulder.

00:37:07.280 He's going on a journey.

00:37:09.040 He has a dog next to him and he's about to step over the edge of a cliff.

00:37:14.380 The symbolism of this, I think one way to interpret it is it represents unfallen man.

00:37:21.660 It's this young man who's beautiful and represents perfection.

00:37:25.740 He has an animal companion representing that he is fully aligned.

00:37:30.960 He's fully friendly with the animal side of himself, the unconscious mind.

00:37:36.060 But another thing about this picture is his eyes are closed.

00:37:39.820 Adam and Eve before the fall weren't fully conscious.

00:37:42.260 It was only after they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that their eyes were fully opened.

00:37:49.660 And so like Adam and Eve, this young man is going to walk over a cliff. 0.56

00:37:55.720 He's going to take a fall.

00:37:57.480 It's going to bring him into the world of imperfection.

00:38:00.020 It's going to bring him to a point where he is no longer comfortable with that animal side of him.

00:38:04.700 He no longer has this easy perfection, but his eyes will be opened.

00:38:09.400 And so he will need to seek this unification again on a higher level, on the level of consciousness. 0.97

00:38:16.700 And so yeah, that card symbolizes this archetype of the fool, right? 0.95

00:38:20.220 When it's sort of this energy of being naive, but it comes with downsides. 0.99

00:38:24.400 But also there's like you have, I mean, you have to be a fool sometimes to take on new ventures and to grow. 0.96

00:38:30.000 Yeah, that's something that Jordan Peterson talks about a lot. 0.99

00:38:34.180 He says that if you're afraid of being a fool, if you're afraid of embarrassing yourself, of looking like an idiot, you can never start something new. 1.00

00:38:41.240 Because when you start something new, you're coming in at ground zero. 1.00

00:38:45.000 And so we need to be comfortable with embarrassment and shame and looking like an idiot. 1.00

00:38:50.840 Otherwise, we won't be able to grow. 1.00

00:38:52.380 So yeah, another one is the magician.

00:38:54.640 It's a really evocative looking card.

00:38:57.160 You got this magician who's pointing up and then down at the same time.

00:39:01.180 What's going on there?

00:39:03.180 That is from one of the most famous alchemical aphorisms, as above, so below.

00:39:08.480 And what that meant was that the things in the macrocosm, the universe, the planets, the stars, the gods and the goddesses, those are reflected in the microcosm down on Earth.

00:39:22.380 And so they believed that the gods inhabited metals.

00:39:26.160 The sun god was in gold.

00:39:28.120 The moon was in silver.

00:39:30.600 Venus was in copper, et cetera.

00:39:33.480 And so as above, so below.

00:39:35.940 In modern times, we can interpret that as what happens in the unconscious mind eventually makes its way into consciousness and shapes our world.

00:39:45.760 And so it's really an acknowledgment that there is this link between what we can see and what we can't see.

00:39:52.580 See, a way I've heard described the magician is like scientists are kind of magicians, right?

00:39:57.400 They have this idea of theory, and the goal is to hopefully make it concrete through the scientific process.

00:40:03.960 And then like the magician's got tools.

00:40:05.640 He's got like wands and swords and things he's using, like same sort of thing.

00:40:09.080 We might have this idea for a business or what we want, like, I don't know, just some project we want.

00:40:16.260 And we see what it looks like in our brain, but the goal is to use our talents and to make it real in the actual world.

00:40:24.720 Yeah, exactly.

00:40:25.700 I mean, what is magic?

00:40:27.040 Magic is when the material world is invaded and occupied by things from the spiritual world.

00:40:34.040 So, for example, if you've got a magic lamp, well, there's a genie inside of it.

00:40:39.140 If you drink a magical potion, it's not just wine or lizard eyes or whatever it is.

00:40:46.060 There's some force that's invaded that thing that transforms the human being.

00:40:52.080 And in a sense, human beings are magicians exactly as you describe.

00:40:58.540 We take these incorporeal thoughts, an idea for a new business.

00:41:04.140 And through the magic of the human mind, the human brain, those thoughts are able to influence the material world in terms of our moving our body.

00:41:15.000 And that may mean digging a ditch.

00:41:17.040 It may be filling out an application for a bank loan.

00:41:20.260 But somehow, the incorporeal ideas in our head are translated to the material world in the form of a new invention, a new business.

00:41:29.980 And in a way, that is a form of magic.

00:41:32.700 So, Jung, he thought fairy tales, these myths, alchemy, tarot, magic numbers, it's a way for us to understand our unconscious.

00:41:43.360 And he thought one of the reasons why we need to kind of deal with or interact with the unconscious is so we can start this process of individuation.

00:41:51.320 What is that for Jung?

00:41:52.740 What is individuation?

00:41:54.960 Individuation is the process of bringing together the conscious and the unconscious minds.

00:42:00.740 And individual really has two meanings.

00:42:03.800 One meaning is indivisible.

00:42:05.940 You bring them together and you get a complete whole that cannot be cut apart.

00:42:09.860 And, of course, then there's the more common meaning of being different from everybody else.

00:42:16.260 And it's only by bringing these two things together that we can be individual.

00:42:21.880 If we are 100% conscious, all we are is logical, rational, and reasonable.

00:42:29.080 And all logical, rational, reasonable people are pretty much the same.

00:42:34.020 Logic always comes up with the same answers.

00:42:36.860 If we just count on our unconscious mind, it kind of brings us down to the level of animals.

00:42:43.600 Animals living strictly by instinct, and they're not all that individual either.

00:42:48.880 But when you combine the two, that's when the magic happens.

00:42:52.820 And that's when you get a true individual person who's unlike anyone else who ever lived.

00:42:58.840 And how does individuation lead to what Jung called transcendence?

00:43:02.300 So, transcendence is something that we typically associate with sages or gurus.

00:43:10.400 But scientific studies have found that it happens to ordinary people.

00:43:15.640 For many people, transcendent qualities increase as we get older.

00:43:21.860 And transcendence really has two major qualities.

00:43:26.360 One is that we have less dependence on the outside world for our happiness, fulfillment, and satisfaction.

00:43:36.140 So, for example, transcendent people don't need a whole lot of material goods to be happy.

00:43:41.940 Transcendent people don't need to be told by others how good they are.

00:43:46.020 Transcendent people don't need to have titles and expensive cars, etc., etc. 0.99

00:43:51.180 They can draw off of their own solid sense of who they are for that kind of reinforcement.

00:43:59.120 The other aspect of transcendence is a growing capacity to love.

00:44:04.740 It's the ability to extend our love.

00:44:07.260 We all have self-love.

00:44:09.020 And then to extend that beyond ourselves to perhaps our family, spouses, girlfriends, boyfriends.

00:44:15.360 And then beyond that to strangers, the entire human race, all living things, and the universe as a whole.

00:44:23.820 As we become more and more transcendent, our ability to love grows and it spreads out.

00:44:29.040 So, how do we tap into that?

00:44:30.860 I mean, any practical things we do?

00:44:32.220 Is it just a matter of, okay, I'm going to go buy a tarot deck and start reading fairy tales?

00:44:36.640 Or, I mean, how do we begin this process of individuation and transcendence by tapping into our unconscious?

00:44:43.620 It's not an easy thing to do.

00:44:45.240 It's probably, as I said, the most important thing we do in life.

00:44:48.820 And it's very, very hard.

00:44:50.780 There's not one way to do it.

00:44:52.820 There's probably an infinite ways to do it.

00:44:54.980 Probably everybody does it in their own particular way.

00:44:58.380 But there's a few ways that have been developed.

00:45:00.380 I think that the starting point is that if you want to develop a relationship with another person, the first thing you want to do is get to know them.

00:45:09.420 You meet someone you want to be friends with.

00:45:10.980 You say, hey, where are you from?

00:45:12.520 Where did you grow up?

00:45:13.600 What kind of work do you do?

00:45:14.840 What are your interests?

00:45:16.440 It's the same with the unconscious.

00:45:18.620 The first step is simply paying attention to what the unconscious is doing.

00:45:24.020 Pay attention to the emotions that happen, to the weird memories of childhood that often pop into our mind, to the funny thoughts that we have that come out of the blue, gut feelings, inspirations, all those kinds of things.

00:45:39.900 And it's not an easy thing to do.

00:45:41.720 It takes a lot of energy.

00:45:43.340 It takes a lot of focus.

00:45:45.300 And it takes time.

00:45:46.820 A lot of these things are going to appear irrational and even random at first.

00:45:51.720 And it's going to take a long time before they start to come together in an understandable way.

00:45:58.720 Another thing we can do is to read fairy tales and other ancient literature about the supernatural.

00:46:06.260 And I don't think we necessarily want to analyze it.

00:46:09.500 We don't need to ask, what does this mean?

00:46:12.080 How can I understand this in a psychological way?

00:46:15.120 I think really we just need to let it work on us.

00:46:18.540 Many have had the experience of reading a fairy tale and feeling a little bit off for a few days, feeling maybe a little bit psychologically off balance.

00:46:30.060 For some people, it's so intense that they won't read fairy tales, especially the classic fairy tales like the Brothers Grimm that have both the light and the dark of the unconscious.

00:46:40.500 Those can be very, very upsetting.

00:46:44.100 So trying to read some of this literature and allowing it to do its thing.

00:46:49.220 A more practical approach, I would say, is meditation.

00:46:54.060 Meditation does a couple of things.

00:46:56.540 Meditation, because it's an exercise in focus and concentration, strengthens the conscious mind.

00:47:03.700 That makes the conscious mind stronger, and so it's better able to pay attention to the things that are going on, the kinds of experiences the unconscious is producing inside the head.

00:47:15.980 And also, the raw instincts of the unconscious are so powerful that if we're able to strengthen the consciousness through meditation, it makes it a little bit safer to open up the door and have confidence that we won't be overwhelmed.

00:47:31.120 Do you, like, you do clinical psychiatry, like, do you do some of this stuff with people you see?

00:47:38.360 I do, I do.

00:47:39.860 I recommend meditation to a lot of people, and it seems to help a lot.

00:47:46.180 In terms of moving towards individuation, I don't do that with the people that I see.

00:47:51.260 And the reason is that the people I see are sick.

00:47:54.120 And individuation is a difficult and a very dangerous endeavor.

00:47:58.960 However, when you start to open up the channels that separate the conscious from the unconscious, a lot's going to come through there.

00:48:06.020 A lot of really good things, but also a lot of really bad things.

00:48:10.220 And so I think that individuation is something for healthy people to do, and that sick people need to wait until they get healthy before they start that process.

00:48:18.900 Okay, so if you are healthy, just start paying attention to those unconscious things that pop up.

00:48:25.260 Read fairy tales.

00:48:26.220 You know who does a really great job, if you don't want to read, that kind of, I think, taps into a lot of archetypes?

00:48:32.000 The Twilight Zone.

00:48:33.300 Oh, yeah.

00:48:34.040 A lot of those episodes, they kind of make you feel, like, disturbed for a couple of days, and they tap into, like, mother archetypes and, you know, just different stuff like that.

00:48:42.900 I think Twilight Zone is another great one for that.

00:48:44.780 And then meditation.

00:48:46.360 Well, Daniel, this has been a great conversation.

00:48:48.220 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:48:50.900 They can go to my website, danielzlieberman.com.

00:48:54.980 Fantastic.

00:48:55.440 Well, Daniel Lieberman, thanks for your time.

00:48:56.520 It's been a pleasure.

00:48:57.740 Brett, thank you so much for having me.

00:49:00.300 My guest here is Dr. Daniel Lieberman.

00:49:02.060 He's the author of the book, Spellbound.

00:49:03.560 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:49:05.680 You can find more information about his work at his website, danielzlieberman.com.

00:49:09.540 Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash unconscious, where you can find links to resources.

00:49:13.480 We can delve deeper into this topic.

00:49:15.660 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:49:24.320 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com, where you can find our podcast archives,

00:49:27.700 as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you think of.

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00:49:56.100 Remind you how to listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:49:59.180 Take care.

00:50:15.660 Let's pick.

00:50:15.920 Take care.

00:50:16.040 Take care.

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00:50:17.000 Take care.

00:50:17.060 unterschied

00:50:17.840 DiTEX 5.

00:50:17.860 smells good.

00:50:18.980 Richmond А+.

00:50:19.900 Ha! 0.89

00:50:20.080 上 heaven.

00:50:20.440 itutel Да.

00:50:21.980 After breakfast.

00:50:22.560 Em다.

00:50:22.860 comum Dieseri.

The Art of Manliness - October 31, 2022

Magic, Archetypes, and the Mysteries of the Unconscious

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