The Art of Manliness - Make Friends With Death to Live a Better Life

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00:01:13.520 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.400 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.320 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.520 We live in a culture that does everything it can

00:01:19.560 to keep death at a distance.

00:01:20.980 We hide it behind hospital curtains,

00:01:23.080 euphemize it in conversation,

00:01:24.540 and hustle through grief

00:01:25.500 like it's just another item on the to-do list.

00:01:27.620 We don't want death to get in the way of living.

00:01:29.980 But my guests would say

00:01:30.760 that making friends with death

00:01:31.840 is the key to fully embracing life.

00:01:34.200 Joanna Ebbetstein is the founder of Morbid Anatomy,

00:01:36.540 a project that uses exhibitions,

00:01:38.440 lectures, and classes

00:01:39.300 to explore how death intersects

00:01:40.620 with history and culture.

00:01:41.980 She's also the author of Memento Mori,

00:01:43.980 The Art of Contemplating Death

00:01:45.260 to Live a Better Life.

00:01:47.040 Today on the show,

00:01:47.840 Joanna shares why we lost

00:01:48.860 a more intimate relationship with death

00:01:50.320 and the life-stifling consequences

00:01:51.860 of that disconnect.

00:01:52.500 We discuss practices

00:01:53.960 for coming to terms with death

00:01:55.000 and removing our fear of it,

00:01:56.500 including looking at Memento Mori art,

00:01:58.480 meditating on death,

00:01:59.640 talking to the dead,

00:02:00.720 and simply taking care of the practicalities

00:02:02.460 surrounding our inevitable departure.

00:02:04.780 After the show's over,

00:02:05.460 check out our show notes

00:02:06.080 at aom.is slash Memento Mori.

00:02:22.500 All right, Joanna Ebbetstein,

00:02:25.380 welcome to the show.

00:02:26.740 Thank you so much.

00:02:27.560 It's wonderful to be here.

00:02:28.880 So you founded a project called Morbid Anatomy

00:02:31.860 that explores the different facets of death.

00:02:34.680 You also wrote a book called Memento Mori,

00:02:37.080 The Art of Contemplating Death

00:02:38.440 to Live a Better Life,

00:02:39.580 which is about how thinking about death,

00:02:42.420 meditating on it,

00:02:43.940 making it a part of our lives

00:02:45.220 can actually improve our lives.

00:02:47.160 In the West, particularly in America,

00:02:49.600 I think we're not particularly comfortable

00:02:51.800 with talking about or thinking about death.

00:02:55.160 But what's interesting,

00:02:56.280 and you talk about this in your book,

00:02:57.960 that wasn't always the case.

00:02:59.560 There was a time in America

00:03:00.600 where we did have a relationship with death,

00:03:03.620 and this was largely before the 20th century.

00:03:05.800 So what happened?

00:03:06.360 Why did people lose this relationship to death?

00:03:09.100 Yeah, that's a great question

00:03:10.420 and a really important one.

00:03:11.640 And what I like to say,

00:03:12.600 and I always say this to my students

00:03:13.840 at the beginning of class,

00:03:15.240 the idea that we can deny death at all

00:03:17.700 is a luxury unique to our time.

00:03:19.600 So until the late 19th to early 20th century,

00:03:23.560 people butchered their own animals.

00:03:25.800 People died in the home.

00:03:27.180 The idea of a good death was to die at home,

00:03:29.060 surrounded by friends and loved ones.

00:03:31.160 The parlor was a place to lay out

00:03:33.260 the body of the dead in the home.

00:03:35.580 And life expectancy was much shorter,

00:03:38.280 and many children died before reaching adulthood.

00:03:41.300 And on top of that,

00:03:42.160 we have wars and the Civil War,

00:03:45.080 World War I, and the influenza epidemic.

00:03:47.380 So I think this idea that death

00:03:49.380 is something exotic and far away

00:03:51.900 and something that is possible to ignore

00:03:54.100 just wasn't present in the 19th century.

00:03:56.780 That's brand new.

00:03:57.820 I don't think any other culture

00:03:59.020 has had that situation.

00:04:00.640 In our culture, when someone gets sick,

00:04:02.140 they go off to a hospital,

00:04:03.280 which is where they usually die.

00:04:04.500 We put our old in old age homes, right?

00:04:07.060 So these are all new developments

00:04:08.700 that push the idea of death

00:04:10.940 and aging further and further

00:04:12.620 from our daily experience.

00:04:13.840 And this was very much not the case

00:04:15.660 in the 19th century.

00:04:16.840 I think watching the movie Gone with the Wind,

00:04:18.640 which many of your listeners out there

00:04:20.440 probably have watched,

00:04:21.800 is a great, great example

00:04:23.580 of how death was a part of everyday life

00:04:25.540 in Victorian era in a very prosaic way.

00:04:27.900 My family, we just finished watching Gone with the Wind.

00:04:30.340 Ah, it's wonderful, right?

00:04:32.220 And that scene,

00:04:32.920 I think when we talk about mourning practices,

00:04:34.740 I love to show that scene

00:04:36.300 where Scarlett accepts the dance offer

00:04:39.820 of Rhett Butler when she's in mourning, right?

00:04:41.580 And shocks everyone's like,

00:04:42.880 oh my God, you can't possibly do that.

00:04:44.660 So that shows not only death practices,

00:04:46.560 but also the rigor of mourning

00:04:47.960 for women, especially.

00:04:49.660 Well, let's talk about that

00:04:50.560 because that's interesting.

00:04:51.300 You talk about it in the book,

00:04:52.180 the rituals and culture

00:04:54.120 that we had around death

00:04:56.520 in 19th century America.

00:04:57.980 It seems like we imported that

00:04:59.400 from Victorian England.

00:05:02.320 Yes, I think that's true.

00:05:03.740 And from what,

00:05:04.740 I'm not a specialist in this,

00:05:06.200 but from what I have read,

00:05:07.680 it seems to me that death practices

00:05:09.840 in the West had not changed substantially

00:05:11.980 between the ancient Greeks

00:05:13.500 and the Victorians until the present.

00:05:15.660 So this idea of, you know,

00:05:17.340 anointing the deceased with oils

00:05:19.380 and dressing them

00:05:20.460 and laying them out in the parlor

00:05:21.660 or in the home for viewing,

00:05:23.220 this was also done,

00:05:24.380 from my understanding,

00:05:25.080 in the ancient Greek world.

00:05:25.960 So I think in the Western world,

00:05:27.700 the Victorian traditions

00:05:28.820 were very, very longstanding traditions

00:05:31.380 that were probably part of all of Europe,

00:05:33.580 is my guess.

00:05:34.300 And that's how they made their way

00:05:35.280 to the United States.

00:05:36.540 It's really only with modernization,

00:05:38.000 the beginning of hospitals,

00:05:39.340 the rise of hygiene.

00:05:40.820 And then what many historians also point out

00:05:42.900 is the kind of twin mass death events

00:05:46.320 of the influenza epidemic

00:05:48.160 in World War I

00:05:48.900 that kind of wipe out

00:05:49.960 those old traditions of mourning.

00:05:51.700 Yeah, so before the 20th century,

00:05:53.500 death was just part of the home life.

00:05:55.920 When someone died,

00:05:56.960 they died in their home.

00:05:58.260 And then the funeral

00:05:59.680 and the body preparation,

00:06:00.960 it happened in the home.

00:06:01.860 It didn't get sent off

00:06:02.840 to a funeral home.

00:06:04.900 To a professional, right?

00:06:06.220 It's that professionalization.

00:06:07.000 Professionalization, absolutely.

00:06:08.620 And something I learned

00:06:09.800 while reading your book,

00:06:11.060 sort of this transition

00:06:11.880 from the 19th century

00:06:13.040 to the 20th century

00:06:14.120 in our relationship to death,

00:06:16.340 why living rooms

00:06:17.480 are called living rooms.

00:06:19.580 Isn't that amazing?

00:06:20.780 Yeah, tell us about that.

00:06:22.020 Yeah, so this was,

00:06:23.340 I read about this in a,

00:06:24.540 there's a man in my community

00:06:25.900 called Stanley Burns

00:06:26.940 who is a collector

00:06:27.960 of postmortem photography.

00:06:29.620 Actually, finding his book

00:06:31.020 when I was about 17,

00:06:33.740 I think,

00:06:34.140 was a really life-changing event.

00:06:35.560 So postmortem photographs

00:06:37.140 are part of mourning practice

00:06:38.820 where people take pictures

00:06:40.660 of their dead loved ones

00:06:41.760 and keep them either

00:06:43.220 as little keepsays,

00:06:44.560 say as a locket,

00:06:46.680 maybe with some of their hair,

00:06:47.920 or maybe put it

00:06:48.780 in the family photo album,

00:06:49.900 or maybe send out

00:06:50.820 to friends, whatever.

00:06:52.160 And he wrote a book

00:06:53.120 on this tradition

00:06:54.120 of postmortem photography

00:06:55.420 where he talked about this.

00:06:56.700 And so, yes,

00:06:57.700 I believe it was

00:06:58.540 Ladies Home Journal.

00:06:59.840 I can't remember

00:07:00.460 exactly the name.

00:07:01.240 It was something like that.

00:07:02.140 And it was in the early 20th century.

00:07:05.060 Somebody wrote an article

00:07:06.120 and they were basically agitating

00:07:08.600 for people to change

00:07:10.040 the name of the parlor

00:07:11.080 to the living room

00:07:11.940 because the parlor

00:07:12.780 had traditionally been a place

00:07:14.400 that you would lay out

00:07:15.140 the bodies of the dead.

00:07:16.340 But now,

00:07:17.280 with these new funeral parlors,

00:07:19.780 the parlor was becoming

00:07:21.180 a room for the living,

00:07:22.580 the living room.

00:07:23.420 And that's where we get the name.

00:07:24.800 Yeah.

00:07:25.100 And you mentioned hair lockets.

00:07:27.320 Another weird,

00:07:28.320 I mean, not weird,

00:07:29.000 but it's interesting for us,

00:07:30.620 it's weird for us.

00:07:31.700 People would make wreaths

00:07:33.560 out of the hair

00:07:34.860 of dead loved ones.

00:07:37.460 Yes.

00:07:38.340 Living and dead.

00:07:39.360 So, if you look up,

00:07:40.480 for those listeners

00:07:41.180 who are curious,

00:07:41.960 if you look up Victorian hair art

00:07:43.620 or Victorian hair work,

00:07:44.820 you will see this.

00:07:45.960 So, there were many,

00:07:46.880 many practices that,

00:07:48.120 again,

00:07:48.540 as far as I've seen,

00:07:49.540 women did 1.00

00:07:50.720 in the wake of a death

00:07:51.920 as part of mourning.

00:07:53.020 And I kind of think of it

00:07:54.380 as both memorializing the dead,

00:07:56.620 creating a work

00:07:57.400 that keeps the memory

00:07:58.500 of the dead alive,

00:07:59.140 but also as a form of mourning.

00:08:00.620 So, one of these

00:08:01.540 is working with human hair

00:08:02.700 and actually here

00:08:03.560 at Morbid Anatomy,

00:08:04.480 we have a teacher,

00:08:05.660 Karen Bachman,

00:08:06.400 who has reverse engineered

00:08:07.600 how hair art was created

00:08:08.980 and she teaches that for us.

00:08:10.500 And I took this class

00:08:11.680 and I don't know

00:08:12.260 if you've ever tried,

00:08:13.280 but when you try to work

00:08:14.760 with human hair,

00:08:15.840 it's really hard

00:08:17.220 and it takes a lot

00:08:18.480 of concentration

00:08:19.120 and it's very meditative,

00:08:21.060 actually.

00:08:21.940 And by doing this class,

00:08:23.200 I began to think,

00:08:24.240 well, you know,

00:08:24.780 I think all of these women 1.00

00:08:25.740 doing this

00:08:26.420 in the wake

00:08:26.860 of a loved one's death,

00:08:28.340 it wasn't just about

00:08:29.300 the final product

00:08:30.140 or the final product

00:08:30.960 is beautiful.

00:08:32.360 It's also about

00:08:33.300 this meditative act

00:08:34.980 that you're doing

00:08:35.620 with the mortal remains

00:08:37.260 of your loved ones.

00:08:38.320 And interestingly,

00:08:39.260 we think about bone

00:08:40.680 and hair

00:08:41.200 being the two things

00:08:42.160 that kind of live on

00:08:43.240 from our bodies

00:08:44.060 when we die.

00:08:45.200 And these hair works,

00:08:46.140 to speak to what you're saying,

00:08:47.220 these beautiful wreaths

00:08:48.780 that are, you know,

00:08:49.580 people create flowers

00:08:50.800 or designs

00:08:51.700 with human hair,

00:08:52.560 sometimes in lockets,

00:08:53.880 making different kinds

00:08:54.620 of designs.

00:08:55.720 This hair that was made

00:08:56.740 in the 18th or 19th century

00:08:58.040 still looks beautiful today.

00:08:59.900 So there is

00:09:00.440 this immortalizing aspect

00:09:01.820 to working with hair.

00:09:03.740 Okay, so in America,

00:09:04.740 we did,

00:09:05.220 there was a period

00:09:05.780 when death

00:09:06.320 was just part

00:09:06.840 of everyday life.

00:09:07.880 You saw it every day

00:09:08.820 if you worked with animals.

00:09:10.560 There was sicknesses

00:09:12.040 where people just died,

00:09:13.800 like children died.

00:09:14.940 That was a common occurrence.

00:09:16.640 There was wars

00:09:17.460 and people would die there.

00:09:19.800 And in the 20th century,

00:09:21.360 we had this shift

00:09:22.420 where death became

00:09:23.560 something we just hid.

00:09:24.920 It became professionalized.

00:09:26.720 And when you're sick,

00:09:27.400 you went to a hospital

00:09:28.260 and then you die 0.62

00:09:29.380 in the hospital

00:09:29.900 and then your body

00:09:30.960 would get carried off

00:09:31.880 and a professional

00:09:33.780 would take care of it.

00:09:34.860 And it's all very sanitary,

00:09:37.000 but also impersonal

00:09:38.420 at the same time.

00:09:39.680 Yeah, and I'm glad

00:09:40.780 you brought up the sanitary

00:09:41.700 because I think

00:09:42.160 that's really part

00:09:42.920 of the drive too

00:09:43.720 is, you know,

00:09:44.220 of course,

00:09:44.620 one of the things

00:09:45.100 that's happening

00:09:45.600 in the late 19th

00:09:46.420 into early 20th century

00:09:47.420 is changing ideas

00:09:48.980 about what is hygienic

00:09:50.260 and what is safe.

00:09:51.340 So people start

00:09:52.220 to be a little afraid

00:09:53.260 of bodies

00:09:53.780 where maybe they weren't

00:09:54.740 so much before

00:09:55.620 and this idea

00:09:56.340 of kind of getting rid

00:09:57.080 of them as quickly

00:09:57.720 as possible,

00:09:58.500 which I think

00:09:59.160 we continue to have today.

00:10:01.400 Okay, so death,

00:10:02.120 we kind of hide it.

00:10:02.960 We pretend like

00:10:03.780 it's not there.

00:10:04.820 What have been

00:10:05.420 the psychological consequences

00:10:07.040 of having an aversion

00:10:09.180 to thinking about

00:10:10.040 and acknowledging death?

00:10:11.480 Well, from my point of view,

00:10:13.640 I think there are a lot

00:10:14.520 of very unhappy,

00:10:15.520 unrealized people.

00:10:17.060 You know,

00:10:17.320 I know we're going to

00:10:17.960 probably talk a little bit later

00:10:19.040 more about these kind

00:10:20.020 of practices

00:10:20.540 of how people

00:10:21.380 kept death close at hand,

00:10:22.720 but in my experience

00:10:23.800 from the different practices

00:10:25.720 that I have spontaneously

00:10:27.080 developed or learned

00:10:28.180 from history,

00:10:29.260 if you are able

00:10:31.400 to come to terms

00:10:32.860 with the fact

00:10:33.740 that your time

00:10:34.440 on earth is limited,

00:10:35.400 it is much easier

00:10:37.360 to make decisions

00:10:38.200 about what you want

00:10:39.160 to do with the time

00:10:40.040 that you have

00:10:40.760 and to live a life

00:10:42.100 that is true to you

00:10:43.080 so that you don't die

00:10:44.100 with a bunch of regrets

00:10:45.060 on your deathbed.

00:10:46.180 So my husband

00:10:46.960 is a death doula, 0.62

00:10:48.100 and so death doulas

00:10:48.840 are practitioners

00:10:49.960 that work with the dying

00:10:51.080 to help them

00:10:51.740 through the dying process,

00:10:52.960 and what death doulas say

00:10:54.440 is that,

00:10:55.860 well,

00:10:56.080 they group it

00:10:56.580 into four different categories.

00:10:57.720 If you have regret,

00:10:59.160 if you have unfinished business,

00:11:01.520 if you have grief and shame,

00:11:03.860 I think those are

00:11:04.480 the four major categories,

00:11:06.220 but essentially,

00:11:07.080 these things hold you back

00:11:08.300 from a good death,

00:11:09.120 from an easy death.

00:11:10.220 Perhaps you haven't said

00:11:11.180 the words you want to

00:11:12.100 to a loved one.

00:11:12.820 Perhaps you're in the middle

00:11:13.620 of a feud with someone

00:11:14.720 and you wish you'd resolved it,

00:11:15.920 whatever,

00:11:16.180 and so death doulas

00:11:17.520 help work with people

00:11:18.700 who are on the verge

00:11:19.860 or starting to see

00:11:20.740 their end in sight

00:11:22.000 to resolve these things

00:11:23.900 so that they can let go

00:11:25.100 and die peacefully.

00:11:26.360 So I think there's this

00:11:27.160 not dying peacefully thing,

00:11:28.940 and also in my experience,

00:11:30.960 I think many people

00:11:32.520 that I have seen

00:11:33.940 die suddenly realizing

00:11:36.300 that they wish

00:11:37.180 they had done

00:11:37.740 certain things in their life

00:11:39.080 that they didn't,

00:11:40.260 and this is regret,

00:11:41.420 and so for me,

00:11:42.800 I feel like

00:11:43.560 by contemplating death

00:11:44.860 and by having practices

00:11:45.880 where I'm constantly saying,

00:11:47.680 okay,

00:11:48.120 what do I want to do

00:11:49.200 with my time on Earth

00:11:50.560 rather than,

00:11:51.200 what do I want to do?

00:11:52.360 If you just phrase it

00:11:53.600 with my time on Earth,

00:11:54.740 suddenly you can feel

00:11:55.600 that immediately, right?

00:11:56.600 It's like there's an urgency

00:11:58.420 and it kind of cuts through

00:12:00.240 the muddle

00:12:01.180 where everything is clear.

00:12:02.960 That knowing there's brevity

00:12:04.120 helps at least for me

00:12:06.360 to see what it is

00:12:07.580 that I prioritize,

00:12:08.640 what my values are,

00:12:09.660 how I want to live

00:12:10.440 my life on Earth.

00:12:11.220 So I think when we neglect

00:12:13.280 to do that,

00:12:14.660 we neglect living a full life

00:12:16.760 which might make us bitter

00:12:18.080 or angry or sad

00:12:19.560 or unrealized

00:12:20.600 at the very least.

00:12:21.820 And I think there's a lot

00:12:22.600 of fear around it

00:12:23.500 and that fear

00:12:24.180 is really easily manipulated

00:12:25.660 by others, I think.

00:12:27.180 Yeah.

00:12:27.900 What are the benefits

00:12:29.080 of making friends with death?

00:12:32.260 I mean,

00:12:32.420 that's kind of the whole

00:12:33.280 premise of your book.

00:12:34.680 It's like,

00:12:34.960 well,

00:12:35.100 if we get more familiar

00:12:36.160 with death,

00:12:37.200 it'll help improve our lives.

00:12:39.360 Yeah,

00:12:39.660 well,

00:12:39.840 I'll tell a story

00:12:40.480 from my own past

00:12:41.400 which I think illustrates it.

00:12:42.840 So I have always loved to travel.

00:12:44.700 My family are all travelers.

00:12:46.200 I really enjoy it

00:12:47.100 but I hate to fly

00:12:48.640 and anytime there's turbulence,

00:12:50.120 I freak out

00:12:50.660 and this is true to this day.

00:12:52.480 And by freak out,

00:12:53.160 I don't mean jump up and down.

00:12:54.400 I just mean like

00:12:54.860 my heart's beating really fast.

00:12:56.120 I can't relax.

00:12:57.300 And I used to be

00:12:58.680 so afraid of flying

00:12:59.640 that when I was waiting in line

00:13:01.000 to get onto the plane,

00:13:01.960 I would have these kind of

00:13:03.360 intrusive thoughts

00:13:04.340 where I would imagine

00:13:05.220 the people around me

00:13:06.160 and how they'd be acting

00:13:07.280 if the plane was plummeting down.

00:13:09.220 But I loved travel

00:13:09.940 and I wasn't going to stop

00:13:10.820 because I was afraid of flying.

00:13:12.460 So the way I dealt with it

00:13:13.640 and this was a spontaneous ritual

00:13:15.160 that I developed

00:13:15.860 is this is from about the time

00:13:17.420 I was 13 on or something.

00:13:19.240 I would sit on the plane,

00:13:20.560 I'd fasten my seatbelt,

00:13:22.280 stow my overhead thing,

00:13:24.040 close my eyes

00:13:24.840 and think to myself,

00:13:25.940 okay,

00:13:26.900 if I die on this flight,

00:13:28.600 what do I wish

00:13:29.400 I had done differently

00:13:30.180 with my life?

00:13:31.260 And I've been doing that

00:13:32.180 since I was 13

00:13:32.980 and I was really surprised

00:13:34.720 to find when I was doing research

00:13:36.100 for this book

00:13:36.780 that Steve Jobs

00:13:38.060 had a very similar ritual.

00:13:39.960 So he did a commencement speech

00:13:42.100 for I think it was Stanford

00:13:43.420 right after he'd been diagnosed

00:13:45.080 with a certain kind

00:13:46.160 of rare cancer

00:13:46.920 and he revealed

00:13:48.240 that he did exactly

00:13:49.620 the same thing.

00:13:50.320 He would look in the mirror

00:13:51.080 every day

00:13:51.640 and say,

00:13:53.040 do I want to do

00:13:54.200 what I'm doing today?

00:13:55.260 And if the answer was no,

00:13:56.980 too many days in a row

00:13:57.780 he'd make a change.

00:13:58.920 So I think Steve Jobs

00:14:00.240 was saying

00:14:00.920 and did say

00:14:01.720 that by contemplating death

00:14:03.380 he lived this incredible life

00:14:04.880 that we all remember him for

00:14:06.180 and I'm no Steve Jobs

00:14:08.240 but I will say

00:14:09.080 that I've lived a life

00:14:10.840 that is true to who I am

00:14:12.860 and so

00:14:13.520 although I do not want to die

00:14:15.340 and I'm not seeking death,

00:14:16.680 I hasten to say that,

00:14:18.240 if I did die tomorrow,

00:14:19.820 I'd be okay with it

00:14:20.820 because I did

00:14:21.860 what I wanted to do

00:14:22.800 and I think that's

00:14:23.680 the gift

00:14:24.920 that contemplating death gives.

00:14:26.960 It helps one realize

00:14:27.920 with clarity

00:14:28.480 what one really wants

00:14:29.560 to do

00:14:29.940 with one's time on earth

00:14:31.380 and also helps you

00:14:32.340 have the courage

00:14:33.000 to achieve it.

00:14:34.560 Something I was struck by

00:14:35.820 is how the work

00:14:37.660 of the psychologist Jung

00:14:39.280 has influenced

00:14:40.720 your philosophy of death.

00:14:41.920 Can you tell us about that?

00:14:43.220 Sure.

00:14:43.780 I love Carl Jung

00:14:44.900 and when I first read Carl Jung

00:14:47.460 as a,

00:14:48.500 I guess in my early 30s,

00:14:50.780 a friend of mine,

00:14:51.620 my friend Susanna McDonald

00:14:52.640 gave me a copy of Man

00:14:53.880 and His Symbols

00:14:54.660 and when I read it

00:14:55.540 I was just thunderstruck

00:14:57.920 and I just thought,

00:14:58.680 wow,

00:14:59.120 this person thinks

00:15:00.040 exactly like I do

00:15:01.180 but he's way smarter

00:15:02.280 than me.

00:15:03.240 So what I love about Jung

00:15:04.600 is I feel that Jung

00:15:06.000 creates a bridge

00:15:06.940 to our ancestors.

00:15:08.340 He has real respect

00:15:09.300 for the way people

00:15:10.080 have thought about the world

00:15:11.480 and he has a wisdom

00:15:12.660 and part of his wisdom

00:15:13.940 to me is about

00:15:15.280 wholeness

00:15:16.300 or I would say

00:15:16.960 complementary duality

00:15:18.260 rather than

00:15:19.080 binary duality.

00:15:20.640 So the way that Jung

00:15:21.940 looks at the world,

00:15:23.340 there are these

00:15:23.760 archetypal polarities

00:15:25.060 and so you have

00:15:26.420 on the one hand

00:15:27.080 life

00:15:27.480 and on the other hand

00:15:28.640 death

00:15:28.960 and the mark

00:15:30.400 of a balanced

00:15:31.240 healthy culture

00:15:32.000 would be

00:15:32.560 that we give

00:15:33.120 equal primacy

00:15:34.060 to both sides

00:15:35.100 of that polarity

00:15:37.180 and he has this idea

00:15:38.520 of the shadow,

00:15:39.280 right,

00:15:39.440 which probably

00:15:40.020 everyone's heard of

00:15:40.880 and this is the idea

00:15:41.840 that there's a part

00:15:43.900 of ourselves

00:15:44.380 or a part of our culture

00:15:45.460 that is unacknowledged,

00:15:47.180 unrecognized,

00:15:48.060 and pushed into

00:15:48.700 the unconscious

00:15:49.300 where then

00:15:50.500 it can create fear

00:15:51.880 and dis-ease

00:15:53.400 essentially.

00:15:54.500 From his point of view,

00:15:55.340 the important thing

00:15:56.000 to do with these polarities

00:15:57.280 is to find balance

00:15:58.600 and it's important

00:15:59.380 to go into the shadow

00:16:00.500 and bring it to consciousness.

00:16:01.920 So rather than

00:16:02.880 pretending it doesn't exist,

00:16:04.420 rather than saying,

00:16:05.260 oh no,

00:16:05.640 I'm not like that,

00:16:06.640 that person over there

00:16:07.600 is like that,

00:16:08.520 trying to say,

00:16:09.060 where is there a part of me

00:16:11.160 that is in what I recoil from?

00:16:13.800 And that just speaks to me.

00:16:14.980 It feels very true 0.71

00:16:16.000 and very balanced

00:16:17.020 and Jung thought that,

00:16:19.980 he shared my view

00:16:20.940 that contemplating death

00:16:22.400 is essential

00:16:23.240 to being a mature adult

00:16:24.840 and that's something

00:16:25.720 that instinctively

00:16:26.600 I think I always felt,

00:16:28.020 this idea that there's

00:16:29.060 a real,

00:16:29.780 to me,

00:16:30.880 immaturity

00:16:31.540 to pretending,

00:16:32.580 you know,

00:16:33.080 that we're not going to die.

00:16:34.320 Everyone who has ever lived

00:16:35.480 has died

00:16:35.980 and every single person

00:16:37.820 will die

00:16:38.460 and so rather than deny it,

00:16:40.500 it just seems to make

00:16:41.800 better sense

00:16:42.840 to look it in the eye

00:16:44.260 and then by looking it

00:16:45.340 in the eye,

00:16:45.880 it ceases to be so frightening.

00:16:48.280 Yeah,

00:16:48.760 it sounds like

00:16:49.320 you had to

00:16:50.620 come to terms with death

00:16:51.860 and embrace death

00:16:52.920 in order to become

00:16:53.980 fully human.

00:16:55.420 Exactly.

00:16:56.300 And that especially

00:16:57.160 as you got older,

00:16:58.020 this is one of the things

00:16:58.820 he said,

00:16:59.600 when you were from middle age on

00:17:01.200 that one of our main tasks

00:17:02.580 in life was to prepare

00:17:03.820 for our own death

00:17:04.720 and part of that

00:17:05.880 was to figure out

00:17:06.620 what we think

00:17:07.340 happens after you die

00:17:08.580 and he was quick to say

00:17:10.280 that, you know,

00:17:11.060 whatever you believe

00:17:12.020 doesn't mean

00:17:12.620 it's capital T true 1.00

00:17:14.060 and it also doesn't mean

00:17:15.100 that your opinion

00:17:16.380 won't change later

00:17:17.560 but you must have,

00:17:19.440 in his opinion,

00:17:20.260 you must have your own idea

00:17:21.660 of what will happen

00:17:22.460 after you die

00:17:23.240 and that is part

00:17:24.520 of what will ease you

00:17:25.360 through the death process.

00:17:27.100 Yeah,

00:17:27.540 Jung said you had to develop

00:17:29.100 your own myth of death

00:17:30.420 and it didn't mean

00:17:31.400 like you invented

00:17:31.900 a fairy tale

00:17:32.820 about death

00:17:34.120 to comfort yourself

00:17:34.940 but it was about

00:17:35.680 creating this symbolic

00:17:36.940 framework for yourself.

00:17:38.400 it's kind of like

00:17:39.540 an inner narrative

00:17:41.060 about what you think

00:17:41.960 about death

00:17:42.580 that will help you

00:17:44.040 approach mortality

00:17:44.940 with meaning

00:17:46.280 rather than fear.

00:17:48.500 And it has to be

00:17:49.140 what I think is so beautiful

00:17:50.240 about what he said

00:17:51.120 it can't be received wisdom.

00:17:52.740 You know,

00:17:52.900 he would say to his

00:17:53.960 analysis,

00:17:55.200 you know,

00:17:55.680 you can't be on your deathbed

00:17:57.320 and say Dr. Jung

00:17:58.640 thought this or that.

00:17:59.580 You have to believe it.

00:18:00.700 It has to be something

00:18:01.460 that comes through

00:18:02.060 your own struggle.

00:18:03.560 Yeah,

00:18:03.780 what you do in your book

00:18:04.460 is you offer readers

00:18:06.140 practices,

00:18:07.280 exercises

00:18:07.880 that they can do

00:18:09.500 and also suggestions

00:18:11.220 on films,

00:18:12.720 books,

00:18:13.640 art to look at

00:18:14.360 to help them develop

00:18:15.320 their own myth of death.

00:18:16.940 Because as you said,

00:18:17.540 this is a,

00:18:18.220 it's not something

00:18:18.920 you can just be told

00:18:19.660 you have to live it.

00:18:21.220 You actually have to do this stuff.

00:18:22.660 So let's talk about

00:18:23.120 some of these practices.

00:18:24.040 Let's talk about the title

00:18:24.680 of your book,

00:18:25.320 Memento Mori.

00:18:26.860 This is a practice

00:18:27.840 that has been done

00:18:29.500 throughout the world

00:18:30.420 and throughout time.

00:18:31.900 For those who aren't

00:18:32.600 familiar with the practice,

00:18:33.800 what is Memento Mori?

00:18:35.720 Yeah,

00:18:36.000 so a Memento Mori

00:18:36.960 is a practice

00:18:37.640 or an artwork

00:18:38.440 or a ritual

00:18:39.460 that reminds you

00:18:41.060 of your own mortality,

00:18:42.040 your own personal death

00:18:43.140 so that you can

00:18:44.240 then live the best life possible.

00:18:46.220 That's how I see it.

00:18:47.660 And there are many,

00:18:48.680 many forms

00:18:49.380 of Memento Mori.

00:18:50.960 The oldest that I know of

00:18:52.060 were in ancient Rome.

00:18:53.060 I'm sorry,

00:18:53.480 in ancient Egypt,

00:18:54.180 that's the oldest

00:18:54.840 that I've heard discussed

00:18:56.140 where I've read

00:18:57.340 that at the height

00:18:58.400 of a feast,

00:18:59.160 people would bring out

00:19:01.000 a skeleton

00:19:01.660 or a mummy

00:19:02.280 as a reminder

00:19:03.280 to those feasting

00:19:04.200 that life is short.

00:19:05.100 In ancient Rome,

00:19:06.640 you might be gifted

00:19:07.700 with a larva convivialis,

00:19:09.380 which were these

00:19:09.820 little bronze skeletons

00:19:11.460 at a banquet

00:19:12.400 and also some banquet floors.

00:19:14.200 I'm sure many of your listeners

00:19:15.860 will be familiar with these,

00:19:16.940 have skeletons of sorts.

00:19:19.080 And this idea

00:19:19.560 in the Roman tradition

00:19:20.940 is carpe diem,

00:19:22.100 like eat,

00:19:22.640 drink,

00:19:22.800 and be merry

00:19:23.260 for tomorrow you might die. 0.86

00:19:24.860 Then in the Christian tradition,

00:19:26.380 the meaning is a bit changed,

00:19:27.940 right?

00:19:28.160 It's kind of the opposite.

00:19:29.340 In the Christian era,

00:19:30.200 you have rosary beads

00:19:31.420 that are half living,

00:19:32.300 half dead,

00:19:32.760 or you have paintings

00:19:33.620 of a skull

00:19:34.900 and an hourglass,

00:19:35.820 which probably many,

00:19:36.760 many of your listeners

00:19:37.780 have seen.

00:19:38.920 And these were intended

00:19:39.680 to remind the viewer

00:19:40.560 that you might die.

00:19:42.020 But in this case,

00:19:42.880 not so you could eat,

00:19:43.920 drink,

00:19:44.060 and be merry,

00:19:44.700 but rather so you could

00:19:46.020 be ready to meet your maker.

00:19:47.580 So a reminder

00:19:48.400 to resist sin

00:19:50.440 and resist temptation

00:19:51.920 in order to live

00:19:52.820 a holy life.

00:19:53.860 Yeah,

00:19:54.180 memento mori

00:19:54.840 is Latin for

00:19:55.900 remember you will die. 0.92

00:19:57.380 And in Roman culture,

00:19:59.060 in ancient Roman culture,

00:20:00.880 sometimes this is used

00:20:02.160 to push to enjoy life

00:20:03.260 while you had it,

00:20:03.920 the whole carpe diem thing.

00:20:05.520 But other times,

00:20:06.580 especially with the Stoics,

00:20:08.880 memento mori

00:20:09.420 was more of a moral check

00:20:10.940 for virtue

00:20:11.980 because it was a reminder,

00:20:13.340 time's short,

00:20:14.060 so be good.

00:20:15.780 People probably heard

00:20:16.820 this story,

00:20:17.740 which is not exactly true,

00:20:19.620 but I think it captures

00:20:20.340 the spirit of this

00:20:21.220 memento mori idea

00:20:22.160 that when a Roman general

00:20:24.420 was paraded

00:20:25.260 through the streets of Rome

00:20:26.840 after a victory,

00:20:27.860 he'd have a servant

00:20:28.540 next to him

00:20:29.180 who would whisper

00:20:29.800 in his ear,

00:20:31.240 memento mori,

00:20:32.140 remember you're mortal.

00:20:33.320 And the idea was that

00:20:34.160 it was to help him

00:20:34.920 keep humble

00:20:35.920 despite having

00:20:36.780 this big victory.

00:20:37.980 Later on in art,

00:20:38.840 you sometimes see

00:20:39.520 carpe diem

00:20:40.420 and memento mori

00:20:41.240 paired together.

00:20:42.000 Like you'd have a skull

00:20:43.520 next to a blooming flower

00:20:44.720 reminding people

00:20:46.120 that life's brief,

00:20:47.400 so you got to make it count.

00:20:48.800 And I want to talk more

00:20:49.520 about memento mori art,

00:20:50.920 which has been a theme

00:20:51.820 in art at different times.

00:20:53.360 Any examples

00:20:54.100 of memento mori art

00:20:55.320 that really stand out to you?

00:20:56.840 So there's many art traditions

00:20:58.400 that draw on this.

00:20:59.620 One is the dance of death.

00:21:00.920 So this was something

00:21:01.760 that came to prominence

00:21:02.680 during the Black Plague.

00:21:04.200 And this is when you see

00:21:05.840 this whole series of images

00:21:07.040 where death is leading off

00:21:08.740 people of different genders

00:21:10.020 and social stations.

00:21:11.280 So you have death

00:21:12.620 and the maiden, 0.93

00:21:13.300 you have death

00:21:14.040 and the priest,

00:21:15.340 death and the child.

00:21:17.160 Those are really amazing

00:21:18.200 and often these really

00:21:19.460 wonderful looks

00:21:20.420 at a culture at large.

00:21:22.080 There's another tradition

00:21:23.700 called death and the maiden,

00:21:24.680 which comes from,

00:21:25.980 from what I can understand,

00:21:27.120 not just the dance of death,

00:21:28.460 but also the story

00:21:29.420 of Persephone in ancient Greece.

00:21:31.680 And Persephone was

00:21:32.560 the goddess of the dead,

00:21:34.080 but she started life

00:21:35.140 just as the daughter

00:21:36.020 of Zeus and Demeter.

00:21:38.120 She was kidnapped

00:21:38.780 by Hades,

00:21:39.940 the king of the dead,

00:21:40.840 and became his queen

00:21:42.040 in the underworld.

00:21:42.880 And she was basically

00:21:43.940 abducted from her life.

00:21:45.960 And so this idea,

00:21:47.020 again,

00:21:47.220 of death and the maiden,

00:21:48.180 there's this image

00:21:48.760 of a deathly figure

00:21:50.020 taking a very beautiful

00:21:51.120 young woman.

00:21:51.740 Those are pretty amazing

00:21:52.960 and some of them

00:21:53.480 are quite erotic

00:21:54.300 and very strange.

00:21:55.480 If you're interested in those,

00:21:56.500 I have a book called

00:21:57.220 Death,

00:21:57.540 A Graveside Companion

00:21:58.640 and I collected

00:21:59.300 as many of those

00:22:00.140 as I could

00:22:00.660 because they're quite surprising

00:22:02.100 and they're from

00:22:02.820 around like the 1600s

00:22:05.180 and or 1500s.

00:22:06.760 They're very,

00:22:07.380 very graphic.

00:22:08.820 But then probably

00:22:09.840 my favorite

00:22:10.780 memento mori genre

00:22:12.820 are what are called

00:22:14.020 half living and half dead.

00:22:15.700 And these are images,

00:22:17.120 if you look up

00:22:17.600 half living and half dead

00:22:18.500 on the internet,

00:22:18.960 you'll find these as well.

00:22:19.980 Half a beautiful young man

00:22:22.000 or woman with clothes 1.00

00:22:24.000 that are fashionable

00:22:24.980 in the time it was made

00:22:26.080 and half either skull skeleton

00:22:28.980 or decaying cadaver.

00:22:31.200 And so the idea here

00:22:32.160 is the inextricable relationship

00:22:34.300 between life and death.

00:22:36.060 My favorite genre

00:22:37.360 of memento mori art

00:22:38.640 comes from the Dutch golden age,

00:22:40.620 the vanitas.

00:22:41.560 Oh yes,

00:22:42.160 those are wonderful.

00:22:43.420 Yeah,

00:22:43.680 tell us about that.

00:22:45.040 Yeah,

00:22:45.380 so vanitas are kind of

00:22:46.560 a form of still life

00:22:47.540 and I think it's really

00:22:48.400 interesting to note

00:22:49.320 that still life

00:22:50.340 in French

00:22:51.380 is nature mort,

00:22:52.940 which is dead nature.

00:22:54.020 So there's already

00:22:54.860 a memento mori aspect

00:22:56.140 built into the still life,

00:22:57.660 which is shocking, right?

00:22:58.720 But these are still lives

00:22:59.780 that are very explicitly

00:23:01.400 about mortality.

00:23:02.520 So you have skulls,

00:23:04.280 hourglasses,

00:23:05.380 you have,

00:23:06.080 you know,

00:23:06.540 decaying flowers

00:23:07.520 and you have all these

00:23:08.740 symbols of things

00:23:09.540 that you won't be able

00:23:10.620 to take with you

00:23:11.380 into the next life.

00:23:12.520 Globes and jewels

00:23:13.600 and card games

00:23:15.060 and all of the pleasures

00:23:16.180 of life.

00:23:16.740 So these are beautiful

00:23:18.320 oil paintings,

00:23:19.800 very beautifully rendered

00:23:20.800 that you would hang

00:23:21.480 in your home

00:23:21.960 as a reminder

00:23:22.680 of the brevity

00:23:23.580 of all of the things

00:23:24.760 you love.

00:23:25.840 And then you also mentioned

00:23:26.820 that aristocrats

00:23:27.980 in Europe,

00:23:28.600 they would often

00:23:29.880 just acquire skeletons

00:23:31.820 or human skulls

00:23:33.000 and just display them

00:23:34.080 somewhere in their house.

00:23:35.360 Absolutely.

00:23:36.100 And it was,

00:23:36.480 again,

00:23:36.720 it was a sign

00:23:37.380 of a memento mori.

00:23:38.320 It was a reminder

00:23:38.880 and you see these

00:23:39.520 in paintings of saints too.

00:23:40.940 You see a saint

00:23:42.020 holding a skull

00:23:42.780 and contemplating it.

00:23:44.220 So this idea

00:23:45.080 of using human remains

00:23:46.440 as a way

00:23:46.940 to remind us

00:23:47.580 of our death,

00:23:48.280 that's something

00:23:48.940 that continues

00:23:49.460 for a very long time.

00:23:50.880 And I think it's worth

00:23:51.700 remembering too

00:23:52.600 that before we had

00:23:53.980 these cemeteries

00:23:54.840 where people

00:23:55.380 would be buried

00:23:56.260 forever,

00:23:57.820 people would be dug up

00:23:58.760 after a certain number

00:23:59.680 of years

00:24:00.180 so as to make more room

00:24:01.600 for more people

00:24:02.260 in the churchyard

00:24:02.960 and then those bones

00:24:03.840 would be kept

00:24:04.460 often in artistic arrangements

00:24:06.300 or in piles

00:24:06.960 that would then act

00:24:07.820 as a memento mori as well.

00:24:09.600 That's something

00:24:09.820 I'm struck by

00:24:10.360 whenever I read history books.

00:24:11.680 Even in America

00:24:12.340 in the 19th century,

00:24:13.800 how frequently

00:24:15.040 people just

00:24:16.460 unburied dead people

00:24:18.440 to either move the body

00:24:20.540 or sometimes

00:24:21.020 just to look at the body.

00:24:23.140 Yeah.

00:24:23.640 Yeah.

00:24:23.900 Or there's that wonderful story

00:24:25.140 of the pre-Raphaelite,

00:24:26.460 was it Rosetti?

00:24:27.420 I think it was Dante Gabriel Rosetti

00:24:29.200 who buried

00:24:30.560 his favorite muse

00:24:32.140 with some of his poems

00:24:33.120 and later in life

00:24:34.040 decided to dig it back up

00:24:35.400 to take the poems

00:24:36.320 but they decayed.

00:24:37.740 So yeah,

00:24:38.140 I think that again

00:24:38.860 it's coming back

00:24:39.460 to this idea

00:24:39.980 that I think

00:24:40.420 we're really afraid

00:24:41.200 of the dead body now.

00:24:42.300 We're afraid of the dead

00:24:43.540 and that was not the case

00:24:45.560 for most of human history.

00:24:47.520 An example of that

00:24:48.900 of a person

00:24:50.140 in 19th century America

00:24:51.240 who unburied

00:24:54.000 a dead loved one

00:24:54.980 that really sticks with me

00:24:56.640 is Ralph Waldo Emerson.

00:24:57.920 I didn't know about that.

00:24:59.940 His wife died

00:25:01.060 and he was just distraught

00:25:03.800 and he decided one day

00:25:06.980 to go to her tomb

00:25:08.380 and open up the casket

00:25:10.500 to look at her

00:25:12.480 and no one knows

00:25:13.060 why he did it

00:25:14.220 but it was after

00:25:15.200 he had that encounter

00:25:16.560 looking at his dead wife

00:25:18.540 and I'm sure

00:25:18.920 she was decomposing

00:25:19.880 at that point

00:25:20.600 that's when he quit his job

00:25:22.460 with the church he was at

00:25:23.340 and he struck out

00:25:24.340 on his own

00:25:24.980 and started doing his essays

00:25:26.480 and lectures on

00:25:27.480 self-reliance

00:25:28.620 and all that stuff.

00:25:29.640 That's such a great story.

00:25:30.940 I've never heard that

00:25:31.540 but that speaks to everything

00:25:32.640 we're talking about.

00:25:33.600 His direct contemplation

00:25:34.620 with death

00:25:34.920 changed the course of his life

00:25:36.260 and he left

00:25:36.940 the safe, comfortable world behind

00:25:39.000 and became someone

00:25:40.180 we remember today.

00:25:41.540 Yeah, I think

00:25:41.960 we're psychoanalyzing

00:25:43.540 a guy that's been dead

00:25:45.100 for almost 200 years

00:25:46.060 but I wonder if

00:25:47.320 he looked at his wife

00:25:48.680 and just looking at her

00:25:50.360 dead body

00:25:51.220 he realized

00:25:52.300 she's not coming back.

00:25:53.460 I have to move on

00:25:54.860 with my life.

00:25:56.040 That's over.

00:25:57.280 I have to move on.

00:25:58.780 Yeah, and it also reminds me

00:26:00.040 you know

00:26:00.240 in the Christian tradition

00:26:01.300 and in the Buddhist tradition

00:26:02.480 there are meditations

00:26:03.540 death meditations

00:26:04.880 that revolve around

00:26:05.900 contemplating

00:26:07.180 the decomposition

00:26:07.980 of the body

00:26:08.620 as a really strong

00:26:10.020 memento mori

00:26:10.800 as a reminder

00:26:11.380 that you will die

00:26:12.340 of the impermanence

00:26:13.620 of everything

00:26:14.080 that you

00:26:14.660 base your life on.

00:26:16.220 There's something

00:26:16.520 really profound about that.

00:26:18.540 Yeah, but speaking

00:26:18.960 of cemeteries

00:26:19.800 I love going through

00:26:21.120 old cemeteries

00:26:22.120 that were built

00:26:23.160 in the 18th

00:26:24.060 and 19th century

00:26:25.040 because a lot

00:26:25.840 of the gravestones

00:26:26.820 were memento mori.

00:26:29.640 My favorite one

00:26:30.820 you'll see every now

00:26:31.780 and then

00:26:32.200 a gravestone

00:26:33.160 will say

00:26:33.520 you know

00:26:33.740 here lies so and so

00:26:34.960 the date of birth

00:26:36.260 date of death

00:26:36.820 and then it'll have

00:26:37.780 a skull or something

00:26:38.860 and then it'll say

00:26:40.040 remember me

00:26:41.540 as you pass by

00:26:42.700 as you are now

00:26:44.360 so once was I

00:26:45.680 as I am now

00:26:47.300 so you will be

00:26:48.500 prepare for death

00:26:49.940 and follow me.

00:26:52.060 Yeah, and so again

00:26:53.820 that just shows

00:26:54.560 how long-standing

00:26:55.920 the sentiment

00:26:56.940 and the idea

00:26:57.620 that the sentiment

00:26:58.240 is useful to us

00:26:59.360 in some way is.

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00:28:04.940 and now back

00:28:07.420 to the show.

00:28:08.220 Okay, so Mimitomori

00:28:09.480 you recommend people

00:28:10.600 make or collect

00:28:12.680 their own Mimitomori

00:28:13.560 put it somewhere

00:28:14.160 in their house

00:28:14.740 and just

00:28:15.380 it's a reminder

00:28:16.500 of death

00:28:17.520 that you can look at.

00:28:18.600 I think it's a great practice

00:28:20.020 that people can do

00:28:20.860 but you mentioned

00:28:21.380 this death meditation

00:28:22.560 as another way

00:28:23.400 of doing Mimitomori

00:28:24.480 you mentioned

00:28:25.620 the Buddhists

00:28:26.540 have a death meditation

00:28:27.740 Christianity

00:28:28.440 there's a history

00:28:29.740 of death meditations

00:28:30.560 walk us through

00:28:31.780 what death meditation

00:28:33.600 looks like.

00:28:34.720 There are so many

00:28:35.420 different kinds

00:28:35.940 of death meditations

00:28:36.780 but one thing

00:28:37.700 I'll start with

00:28:38.240 by saying

00:28:38.700 is my husband

00:28:39.300 is a long time meditator

00:28:40.440 which is how

00:28:41.080 he became a death doula

00:28:41.980 and what he tells us

00:28:43.640 is that

00:28:44.200 in the Eastern tradition

00:28:45.640 meditation itself

00:28:46.980 is a preparation

00:28:48.020 for death

00:28:48.660 so the idea

00:28:49.420 is that

00:28:49.960 after the death

00:28:51.280 of the body

00:28:51.880 part of us

00:28:52.780 lives on

00:28:53.320 and it has to

00:28:54.180 navigate

00:28:54.580 a series

00:28:55.680 of confusing

00:28:56.880 spaces

00:28:57.440 in order to get

00:28:58.140 to the next

00:28:58.560 stage of existence

00:28:59.360 whatever that might be

00:29:00.340 many cultures

00:29:01.160 have believed that

00:29:01.840 I should point out

00:29:02.580 on some level

00:29:03.180 or another

00:29:03.540 but meditation

00:29:04.660 is supposed

00:29:05.460 to help us

00:29:06.500 keep our wits

00:29:07.520 about us

00:29:08.140 in a moment

00:29:08.800 of complete upheaval

00:29:10.060 so I think

00:29:10.560 that's a really

00:29:11.100 interesting thing

00:29:11.760 to point out first

00:29:12.640 he teaches

00:29:13.980 a death meditation

00:29:14.740 for morbid anatomy

00:29:15.640 which is really

00:29:16.780 about leaving

00:29:17.640 your body

00:29:18.200 in your mind

00:29:19.080 and then coming back

00:29:19.960 and also talking

00:29:20.760 about what happens

00:29:21.620 to the body

00:29:22.220 as you start to die

00:29:23.460 there are

00:29:25.180 these meditations

00:29:26.380 in the Christian

00:29:27.060 and Buddhist tradition

00:29:27.860 in which you meditate

00:29:28.980 on different levels

00:29:30.480 of decomposition

00:29:31.440 of the body

00:29:32.160 and the Buddhists 0.53

00:29:33.120 would even go

00:29:33.600 to the charnel grounds

00:29:34.540 and look at these bodies

00:29:35.640 as a form of meditation

00:29:36.880 and have artworks

00:29:37.760 around it

00:29:38.180 my personal favorite

00:29:39.820 death meditation

00:29:40.520 comes from the Jungian tradition

00:29:41.900 and it's by a woman

00:29:43.580 named June Singer

00:29:44.420 and I found it

00:29:46.520 so calming to do it

00:29:47.640 and I still come back

00:29:48.540 to it in times of stress

00:29:49.760 it's basically

00:29:50.540 a slow letting go

00:29:51.560 of everything

00:29:52.100 you're attached to

00:29:53.020 in your daily life

00:29:54.140 so what really stuck

00:29:55.360 with me is

00:29:56.000 think of your desk

00:29:57.240 and all of the piles

00:29:58.260 of things

00:29:58.880 that you're working

00:29:59.500 on right now

00:30:00.140 you can let that go

00:30:01.520 one by one

00:30:02.680 you let the things

00:30:03.560 you're attached to go

00:30:04.620 and by doing that

00:30:05.920 there's such a sense

00:30:07.000 of for me at least

00:30:08.740 it's not fear

00:30:10.140 it's relief

00:30:11.780 you know

00:30:12.760 and it's this reminder

00:30:13.780 that the things

00:30:14.520 that we find important

00:30:15.580 right now

00:30:16.220 there's so many things

00:30:17.520 I imagine Brett

00:30:18.360 for you

00:30:18.780 certainly for me

00:30:19.460 like I have to do this

00:30:20.220 I have to do that

00:30:20.800 and I can't wait

00:30:21.260 you know

00:30:21.500 but when you start

00:30:22.640 to let go

00:30:23.360 that disappears

00:30:24.580 it's not important anymore

00:30:25.920 you're moving somewhere else

00:30:27.260 and if you've ever read

00:30:28.640 any near-death experiences

00:30:29.840 which I really enjoy reading

00:30:31.260 this is what these people

00:30:32.560 say again and again

00:30:33.540 so near-death experiences

00:30:34.920 are

00:30:35.400 when people

00:30:36.740 who

00:30:37.660 technically are dead

00:30:39.100 their brain is dead

00:30:40.180 they're

00:30:41.000 flatlining on an EKG

00:30:42.460 these are often people

00:30:43.380 that are brought back

00:30:44.100 from heart attacks

00:30:44.920 or put into comas

00:30:46.080 for surgery

00:30:47.080 and while they're in this state

00:30:48.920 they have these different experiences

00:30:50.300 and they all

00:30:51.240 or many of them

00:30:52.700 report this kind of feeling

00:30:54.060 of letting it all go

00:30:56.460 and maybe it's painful

00:30:58.040 to let it go

00:30:58.640 but then when they have to come back

00:30:59.980 they really regret it

00:31:01.160 and I think there's just something

00:31:02.260 really nice to think about that

00:31:03.980 that all of the things

00:31:05.520 we think are so important

00:31:06.740 right now

00:31:07.160 that we're so attached to

00:31:08.420 the feeling of letting it go

00:31:10.700 is a really beautiful feeling

00:31:12.280 so I think

00:31:13.800 one of the scariest things

00:31:15.300 about death

00:31:16.760 is that we don't know

00:31:18.480 what happens

00:31:19.180 after death

00:31:20.360 it's the biggest mystery

00:31:22.100 in humanity

00:31:23.740 so yeah

00:31:24.920 we always want to

00:31:25.560 do we move to a different realm

00:31:26.780 do we get reincarnated

00:31:28.360 or is it

00:31:29.180 we just cease to exist

00:31:30.520 how have different cultures

00:31:32.920 throughout

00:31:33.300 time

00:31:34.920 thought about

00:31:35.720 what happens to us

00:31:36.900 after death

00:31:37.580 yeah

00:31:38.420 there are so many

00:31:39.380 different particulars

00:31:40.840 but I'd say

00:31:41.680 the overwhelming

00:31:42.680 feeling

00:31:43.900 of every

00:31:44.960 it seems to me

00:31:45.820 every culture

00:31:46.480 until

00:31:46.940 until modern

00:31:47.800 scientific culture

00:31:48.880 is that

00:31:49.640 there is some

00:31:50.520 continuation

00:31:51.180 where we go on

00:31:52.760 in some way

00:31:53.520 and so in ancient Egypt

00:31:55.000 at different time periods

00:31:56.900 there were a different

00:31:57.620 number of souls

00:31:58.400 but as many as

00:31:59.380 12 different souls

00:32:00.440 we had

00:32:00.840 which all went

00:32:01.460 to different places

00:32:02.280 one of them

00:32:02.960 goes into a statue

00:32:03.960 another goes into a mummy

00:32:05.260 another goes into an underworld

00:32:06.640 so there's this tradition

00:32:07.940 of more than one soul

00:32:08.960 and that's pretty common

00:32:10.020 there is the tradition

00:32:11.660 of reincarnation

00:32:12.540 which is really strong

00:32:13.680 the idea that we're reborn

00:32:14.820 or transmigration

00:32:15.640 of souls

00:32:16.100 they also call it

00:32:16.960 reborn into another

00:32:18.240 human or animal form

00:32:19.700 there is

00:32:21.460 the idea that

00:32:22.760 that we become

00:32:23.980 ancestor spirits

00:32:25.040 so many many

00:32:26.040 cultures around the world

00:32:27.100 continue to

00:32:28.420 cultivate a relationship

00:32:30.120 with the dead

00:32:30.640 because it's believed

00:32:31.560 that they are in a realm

00:32:32.780 where they can

00:32:33.340 continue to assist

00:32:34.760 the living

00:32:35.300 and protect the living

00:32:36.320 and I was just talking

00:32:37.540 to a friend of mine

00:32:38.420 who's an

00:32:39.200 archaeologist

00:32:40.540 about

00:32:41.480 I think he was

00:32:42.960 talking about

00:32:43.640 an African culture

00:32:44.820 where they believe

00:32:46.160 that if you're

00:32:46.640 separated from the bones

00:32:47.600 of the dead

00:32:48.180 then you lose

00:32:49.080 this vital protection

00:32:50.140 that is part of

00:32:50.860 how you can

00:32:51.340 successfully live

00:32:52.100 your life

00:32:52.540 so again

00:32:53.800 there's different

00:32:54.580 particulars

00:32:55.600 but I think

00:32:56.200 the commonality

00:32:57.080 is that

00:32:57.760 we continue on

00:32:59.800 in some way

00:33:00.460 and I think

00:33:01.100 that's what makes

00:33:01.880 the last

00:33:02.480 you know

00:33:03.120 150 or so years

00:33:04.700 when this idea

00:33:05.540 that I think

00:33:05.980 many elites

00:33:06.600 might have had

00:33:07.220 but really trickles

00:33:08.080 into the mainstream

00:33:08.780 that that's it

00:33:10.760 that when we die

00:33:11.620 it's zero

00:33:12.960 game over

00:33:13.760 that's when that idea

00:33:15.380 really really comes

00:33:16.940 into our lives

00:33:17.820 and I think

00:33:18.260 you know

00:33:19.320 what Jung said

00:33:20.000 coming back to Carl Jung

00:33:21.000 is that's why

00:33:21.900 it is our obligation

00:33:23.720 to come up

00:33:24.240 with our own myth

00:33:24.920 of death

00:33:25.360 because maybe

00:33:26.040 for our great

00:33:26.820 great grandparents

00:33:27.620 those questions

00:33:28.940 were answered

00:33:29.540 by their culture

00:33:30.600 by their religion

00:33:31.540 we don't have that

00:33:32.600 or I shouldn't say that

00:33:33.600 some of us do

00:33:34.580 but more of us

00:33:35.780 don't have that

00:33:36.460 than probably ever before

00:33:37.720 in human history

00:33:38.440 so whether we'd like it

00:33:39.760 or not

00:33:40.120 it's our obligation

00:33:41.080 to come up

00:33:41.920 with our own belief

00:33:42.660 and our own understanding

00:33:43.740 yeah and I think

00:33:45.440 both beliefs

00:33:46.660 the idea that

00:33:47.400 the soul continues on

00:33:48.820 or it's just

00:33:49.440 you cease to exist

00:33:50.440 when you die

00:33:51.300 like whatever

00:33:51.940 idea of death

00:33:53.040 you take

00:33:53.880 like both can be

00:33:55.100 motivating

00:33:56.020 here now

00:33:57.880 as we're living

00:33:58.600 absolutely

00:33:59.900 absolutely

00:34:00.840 and I think

00:34:02.180 you know

00:34:02.360 another thing

00:34:02.820 to that point

00:34:03.880 that I include

00:34:04.460 in the book

00:34:04.960 is information

00:34:06.780 about nurses

00:34:07.580 and death doulas

00:34:08.280 who have worked

00:34:08.820 with those

00:34:09.300 who are dying

00:34:09.780 and what their

00:34:10.380 biggest regrets are

00:34:11.380 and I think

00:34:11.780 that's really

00:34:12.280 interesting to think

00:34:13.140 about

00:34:13.400 there's a death

00:34:14.460 doula in our

00:34:14.960 community

00:34:15.320 who says that

00:34:16.240 when she's working

00:34:17.800 with the dying

00:34:18.340 the regret

00:34:19.260 she hears the most

00:34:20.140 is I wish

00:34:20.700 I had said

00:34:21.320 I loved you more

00:34:22.200 and when you

00:34:23.140 think about that

00:34:23.860 that's a really

00:34:24.520 simple thing

00:34:25.160 to remedy

00:34:25.640 if you

00:34:26.580 keep in mind

00:34:27.800 the fact

00:34:28.220 that you're

00:34:28.460 going to die

00:34:29.080 so I think

00:34:29.820 there's so much

00:34:30.460 we can do

00:34:31.100 again using this

00:34:32.260 as a

00:34:32.880 as a goad

00:34:34.040 and as an

00:34:34.540 encouragement

00:34:34.980 to live

00:34:35.700 a really

00:34:36.380 good life

00:34:37.040 unique to

00:34:37.680 ourselves

00:34:38.180 one of the

00:34:39.420 interesting

00:34:39.640 sidebars

00:34:40.200 you had

00:34:40.680 in that

00:34:41.020 chapter

00:34:41.380 about

00:34:41.740 the afterlife

00:34:42.600 and trying

00:34:43.100 to think

00:34:43.460 about

00:34:43.740 what we

00:34:44.220 think

00:34:44.580 happens

00:34:45.860 developing

00:34:46.400 our own

00:34:46.680 myth

00:34:46.860 of death

00:34:47.340 this idea

00:34:48.240 of psychopomps

00:34:49.740 is that how you

00:34:50.080 say it

00:34:50.320 yeah

00:34:50.600 what are

00:34:51.120 psychopomps

00:34:51.860 I love

00:34:52.940 that word

00:34:53.420 psychopomps

00:34:54.020 is one of my

00:34:54.340 favorite words

00:34:54.940 it's from

00:34:55.540 the ancient

00:34:55.900 Greek

00:34:56.200 and it means

00:34:56.640 soul guide

00:34:57.220 literally

00:34:57.640 and so

00:34:58.580 a psychopomp

00:34:59.360 could be

00:35:00.360 a deity

00:35:00.940 it could be

00:35:01.980 a shaman

00:35:02.540 or a priest

00:35:03.120 and basically

00:35:03.680 a soul pump

00:35:04.220 is someone

00:35:04.540 who helps

00:35:05.000 you make

00:35:05.320 your way

00:35:05.660 from one

00:35:06.340 realm of

00:35:06.780 existence

00:35:07.140 to another

00:35:07.820 you know

00:35:08.280 the figure

00:35:08.760 that I end

00:35:09.240 the book

00:35:09.520 with is a

00:35:09.960 figure called

00:35:10.520 La Santa Muerte

00:35:11.660 which is a new

00:35:12.700 folk saint

00:35:13.300 in Mexico

00:35:13.880 and she

00:35:14.780 takes the

00:35:15.180 form of a

00:35:15.700 female 0.86

00:35:15.960 grim reaper

00:35:16.440 and she

00:35:16.780 is also

00:35:17.140 seen as

00:35:17.540 a psychopomp

00:35:18.260 she's not

00:35:19.180 the one

00:35:19.960 who creates

00:35:20.540 death

00:35:20.860 she's not

00:35:21.240 the agent

00:35:21.680 of death

00:35:22.100 but rather

00:35:22.620 she is

00:35:23.100 your guide

00:35:23.560 who takes

00:35:24.040 you to

00:35:24.320 the next

00:35:24.660 realm

00:35:24.980 we did

00:35:26.600 a podcast

00:35:27.400 back in

00:35:28.260 2022

00:35:28.780 with

00:35:29.860 this guy

00:35:30.520 named

00:35:31.100 Christopher

00:35:31.740 Kerr

00:35:32.520 who has

00:35:33.100 researched

00:35:33.920 this phenomenon

00:35:35.240 that happens

00:35:35.780 you talk about

00:35:36.320 this in the

00:35:36.720 book

00:35:37.020 I think it's

00:35:37.660 related to

00:35:37.980 psychopomps

00:35:38.580 is as

00:35:39.260 people get

00:35:39.760 close to

00:35:40.340 death

00:35:40.840 they start

00:35:42.040 seeing

00:35:42.580 visions

00:35:43.220 or dreams

00:35:44.600 of people

00:35:45.880 who have

00:35:46.280 passed away

00:35:47.040 before them

00:35:47.720 this is

00:35:48.720 true

00:35:49.000 there's so

00:35:49.780 much

00:35:50.160 anecdotal

00:35:51.020 evidence

00:35:51.660 or anecdotal

00:35:52.860 suggestion

00:35:53.380 that these

00:35:54.740 old traditions

00:35:55.780 are true

00:35:56.300 and that's

00:35:56.640 one of

00:35:56.940 them

00:35:57.100 yes

00:35:57.400 this is

00:35:57.700 very common

00:35:58.200 that people

00:35:59.800 I hear this

00:36:00.640 from hospice

00:36:01.180 nurses

00:36:01.500 I know

00:36:01.900 too

00:36:02.200 and not

00:36:03.140 only that

00:36:03.580 but they

00:36:03.900 say that

00:36:04.480 this is

00:36:05.320 partially

00:36:05.720 how they

00:36:06.100 determine

00:36:06.540 how close

00:36:07.120 to death

00:36:07.500 a person

00:36:07.960 is

00:36:08.300 is when

00:36:08.620 they start

00:36:09.160 to talk

00:36:10.340 about

00:36:10.640 loved ones

00:36:11.320 coming to

00:36:11.860 them

00:36:12.020 and their

00:36:12.240 dreams

00:36:12.540 or visions

00:36:12.960 they know

00:36:13.440 that they

00:36:13.740 don't have

00:36:14.080 too much

00:36:14.480 time

00:36:14.780 longer

00:36:15.160 yeah

00:36:15.980 and these

00:36:16.840 people

00:36:17.180 like they

00:36:17.820 talk to

00:36:18.720 them

00:36:18.960 they talk

00:36:19.620 to these

00:36:19.860 people

00:36:20.140 in the

00:36:20.400 room

00:36:20.520 and so

00:36:20.760 if you're

00:36:21.100 in the

00:36:21.420 room with

00:36:21.780 a loved

00:36:22.120 one who

00:36:22.420 is dying

00:36:23.100 you might

00:36:24.680 see them

00:36:25.120 talking to

00:36:26.020 their

00:36:26.760 grandparent

00:36:27.460 or their

00:36:28.220 parent

00:36:28.700 and you're

00:36:30.060 looking around

00:36:30.680 and like I'm

00:36:31.640 not seeing

00:36:32.000 anything

00:36:32.460 but like that

00:36:33.040 person

00:36:33.460 sees that

00:36:34.360 person

00:36:34.620 like this

00:36:34.960 happened

00:36:35.220 with my

00:36:35.580 aunt

00:36:35.860 she passed

00:36:36.340 away

00:36:36.560 recently

00:36:36.980 she had

00:36:38.020 some

00:36:38.380 degenerative

00:36:39.200 disease

00:36:39.680 and like

00:36:40.860 a week

00:36:41.380 before

00:36:41.860 she passed

00:36:42.800 away

00:36:43.140 she

00:36:44.400 started

00:36:45.500 talking to

00:36:45.980 herself

00:36:46.380 but she

00:36:47.080 was talking

00:36:47.500 to someone

00:36:47.980 else

00:36:48.380 and when

00:36:49.400 her sons

00:36:50.700 asked her

00:36:51.240 like mom

00:36:51.940 who are you

00:36:52.180 talking to

00:36:52.780 she's like

00:36:53.680 well it's

00:36:53.940 the lady 0.95

00:36:54.260 in black

00:36:54.680 over there

00:36:55.260 and they'd

00:36:55.800 say what

00:36:56.160 are you

00:36:56.320 talking

00:36:56.600 about

00:36:56.920 and she'd

00:36:57.380 say well

00:36:57.800 that's

00:36:58.000 just between

00:36:58.380 us

00:36:58.840 and we

00:37:00.580 don't know

00:37:00.780 who the

00:37:00.960 lady in

00:37:01.220 black

00:37:01.400 was

00:37:01.620 it could

00:37:01.880 have been

00:37:02.180 an aunt

00:37:02.720 it could

00:37:02.960 have been

00:37:03.140 a grandmother

00:37:03.680 and what's

00:37:04.880 interesting

00:37:05.060 this Christopher

00:37:05.680 Kerr guy

00:37:06.160 he's a

00:37:06.960 doctor

00:37:07.280 and he's

00:37:07.800 not trying

00:37:08.140 to explain

00:37:08.920 like oh

00:37:09.420 yes there's

00:37:09.880 life after

00:37:10.280 death

00:37:10.480 he's just

00:37:10.800 trying to

00:37:11.140 report on

00:37:11.620 the phenomenon

00:37:12.120 in an

00:37:12.480 objective

00:37:12.760 way like

00:37:13.140 this

00:37:13.300 happens

00:37:13.680 and one

00:37:15.300 thing you

00:37:15.520 notice when

00:37:16.180 children are

00:37:17.520 passing away

00:37:18.260 they typically

00:37:19.280 don't have

00:37:19.760 anybody that

00:37:20.420 have passed

00:37:21.340 away yet

00:37:22.640 but if they

00:37:23.760 had a pet

00:37:24.260 that passed

00:37:24.740 away the

00:37:25.980 pet will

00:37:26.480 show up

00:37:27.580 and be

00:37:28.840 their little

00:37:29.200 guide

00:37:29.540 yeah and I

00:37:31.160 think this

00:37:31.560 speaks you

00:37:32.060 know one of

00:37:32.360 the main

00:37:32.800 principles of

00:37:33.480 my book

00:37:33.920 that I kind

00:37:34.500 of I start

00:37:35.100 with some

00:37:35.380 main principles

00:37:35.940 and one of

00:37:36.440 them is I

00:37:37.000 call it

00:37:37.280 practice versus

00:37:38.120 belief and

00:37:39.000 this is what I

00:37:39.500 love about

00:37:39.900 these stories I

00:37:40.620 think there's a

00:37:41.020 way we can

00:37:41.420 listen to these

00:37:42.020 stories like

00:37:43.460 you're telling

00:37:43.880 which are

00:37:44.200 amazing and

00:37:44.880 tell us

00:37:45.240 something really

00:37:45.860 interesting and

00:37:47.480 this is what I

00:37:47.820 love about the

00:37:48.300 union approach

00:37:48.940 as well is we

00:37:49.760 can say that

00:37:50.360 those stories

00:37:51.080 whether they're

00:37:51.700 capital T true

00:37:52.760 whether they

00:37:53.280 reflect in

00:37:53.980 actual reality

00:37:55.280 we can never

00:37:56.080 know or at

00:37:56.640 least we can't

00:37:57.160 know at this

00:37:57.620 realm right but

00:37:58.760 we can know that

00:37:59.820 they're common and

00:38:00.860 they happen to

00:38:01.380 people which means

00:38:02.020 they're real and

00:38:02.660 means they mean

00:38:03.400 something so

00:38:04.380 whether they're

00:38:04.820 happening in the

00:38:05.640 psyche or

00:38:06.280 happening you

00:38:07.060 know with

00:38:07.460 something beyond

00:38:08.200 the psyche

00:38:08.700 almost doesn't

00:38:09.980 matter you know

00:38:10.860 it's still a

00:38:11.540 human situation

00:38:13.080 a human truth

00:38:14.500 towards the end

00:38:15.180 of life and

00:38:15.660 my feeling is

00:38:16.420 even if that is

00:38:17.660 an illusion from

00:38:18.680 the perspective of

00:38:20.260 science what a

00:38:21.560 beautiful illusion to

00:38:22.760 have at the end of

00:38:23.540 life what a

00:38:24.040 beautiful gift right

00:38:25.340 oh for sure and

00:38:26.800 it's comforting to

00:38:27.700 me and this is

00:38:28.360 something you

00:38:28.900 mentioned earlier

00:38:29.480 that oftentimes when

00:38:31.120 people have a near

00:38:32.100 death experience it

00:38:34.180 feels so good to be

00:38:35.180 transitioning out that 0.85

00:38:36.760 when they're brought

00:38:38.120 back to life a lot

00:38:39.580 of times they're

00:38:39.940 really disappointed

00:38:40.640 and sometimes just

00:38:41.300 kind of angry

00:38:42.360 like really angry

00:38:43.360 about it because

00:38:44.180 like they're like

00:38:44.800 I didn't want to

00:38:46.020 come back so it's

00:38:47.080 nice to know that

00:38:47.920 you know whatever's

00:38:48.940 beyond getting there

00:38:50.980 seems to be like a

00:38:52.360 really pleasant

00:38:52.980 passage so let's

00:38:54.340 talk about how we

00:38:54.940 respond to the death

00:38:55.720 of others do we

00:38:56.820 know how long

00:38:58.060 humans have been 1.00

00:38:58.780 using mourning rituals

00:38:59.860 when someone dies in

00:39:01.580 their community

00:39:02.080 yeah I think that

00:39:03.400 that number changes

00:39:04.520 all the time but

00:39:05.660 when I was working

00:39:06.360 on the book I

00:39:07.060 think it at least

00:39:08.220 the neolithic era

00:39:09.160 they found graves

00:39:10.080 that have different

00:39:10.740 kinds of offerings

00:39:11.520 for the dead and

00:39:12.380 the dead put into

00:39:13.380 fetal position so

00:39:14.720 this seems to

00:39:15.420 suggest that we

00:39:16.360 have been mourning

00:39:17.460 for at least that

00:39:18.400 long okay so it's

00:39:20.280 been a long time

00:39:21.320 yeah I think it's a

00:39:23.240 human universal as

00:39:24.400 far as I can see

00:39:25.260 that we have rituals

00:39:26.440 around ushering the

00:39:28.660 dead into their new

00:39:29.500 realm of existence

00:39:30.300 however we perceive

00:39:31.700 of that or conceive

00:39:32.520 of that so how do

00:39:33.560 these mourning rituals

00:39:34.320 that we develop how

00:39:35.120 do you think they

00:39:36.600 help us process the

00:39:39.140 grief that comes

00:39:40.200 when someone dies

00:39:41.060 I think having a

00:39:42.420 ritual that's held

00:39:43.980 in community helps

00:39:45.460 create meaning around

00:39:47.020 something that can

00:39:47.980 seem chaotic

00:39:48.740 otherwise and also

00:39:50.720 creates a place

00:39:52.260 where we can share

00:39:53.280 our feelings and our

00:39:54.640 grief with the

00:39:55.420 community which I

00:39:56.400 think is really

00:39:56.900 essential some people

00:39:58.600 think that our lack

00:39:59.700 of proper grief

00:40:00.900 rituals is a real

00:40:01.860 epidemic in our

00:40:02.880 particular culture I

00:40:03.880 talk in the book

00:40:04.580 about Martin

00:40:05.920 Prechtel who

00:40:07.040 was who

00:40:07.960 unfortunately he's

00:40:08.620 passed away he

00:40:09.440 grew up in a

00:40:10.100 Native American

00:40:10.720 tradition and then

00:40:11.520 end up being

00:40:12.060 initiated into

00:40:13.060 Mayan shamanism in

00:40:14.060 Guatemala and he

00:40:15.360 wrote a book called

00:40:16.460 grief and praise

00:40:17.760 which is really all

00:40:19.500 about where he sees

00:40:20.860 the shortcomings of

00:40:21.980 the affluent western

00:40:22.800 world's mourning

00:40:23.420 practices and in his

00:40:25.300 traditions and

00:40:25.980 indigenous traditions

00:40:26.840 the ones that he's

00:40:27.520 from the idea is

00:40:28.940 that we have to

00:40:29.680 mourn fully to the

00:40:30.740 extent that he says

00:40:31.440 you have to look

00:40:32.100 bad when you're done

00:40:32.960 that's what like

00:40:33.720 mourning properly

00:40:34.460 means bawling shrieking

00:40:36.560 you know going

00:40:37.420 through it all in

00:40:38.800 order to get it out

00:40:39.520 of our body to

00:40:40.280 literally express it

00:40:41.440 to push it out

00:40:42.160 because otherwise

00:40:42.820 from their tradition

00:40:43.600 it can become

00:40:44.120 disease it can

00:40:44.860 become tumors which

00:40:45.820 they call solidified

00:40:46.860 tears so I think

00:40:48.360 there's you know

00:40:49.000 between him and

00:40:49.940 then I was reading

00:40:50.520 also a lot about

00:40:51.540 oh my goodness it's

00:40:53.660 been a while since I

00:40:54.220 wrote the book I

00:40:54.720 can't remember his

00:40:55.220 name but he was an

00:40:55.900 activist who was in

00:40:56.860 Columbine and he

00:40:58.600 had been with his

00:41:00.400 best friend when his

00:41:01.160 best friend was shot

00:41:02.060 and he ended up

00:41:03.020 becoming an opioid

00:41:04.360 addict later in life

00:41:05.640 due to prescription

00:41:06.400 drugs and he he was

00:41:08.280 saying the same thing

00:41:09.040 in his mind our lack

00:41:10.820 of proper grieving is

00:41:12.140 part of what creates

00:41:13.320 the violent culture

00:41:14.180 that we live in

00:41:15.060 I mean I've noticed

00:41:16.740 this going back to

00:41:18.080 this idea that we've

00:41:18.720 tried to hide death

00:41:19.540 in American culture

00:41:20.340 and we've lost a lot

00:41:21.720 of the elaborate

00:41:22.840 mourning rituals that

00:41:23.780 we had that sometimes

00:41:24.620 would take a week

00:41:25.720 two weeks

00:41:26.500 months

00:41:27.220 years

00:41:28.520 years even

00:41:29.540 look at gone with

00:41:30.340 the wind

00:41:30.540 gone with the wind

00:41:31.280 right and now

00:41:32.720 what we do instead

00:41:33.760 is like all right

00:41:34.840 we got to get this

00:41:35.260 funeral done and then

00:41:36.500 if you're feeling sad

00:41:37.460 well then here's an

00:41:38.740 antidepressant or

00:41:39.560 sedative you know

00:41:40.780 and sometimes people

00:41:41.500 need that that for

00:41:43.060 their for their pain

00:41:43.940 but oftentimes it

00:41:45.100 seems like you know

00:41:46.440 they take it because

00:41:47.160 they feel like they

00:41:48.320 have to drug

00:41:48.820 themselves to interact

00:41:50.000 with other people

00:41:50.720 like they feel like

00:41:51.480 they can't and they

00:41:52.740 can't fall apart in

00:41:54.120 front of others you

00:41:55.020 definitely can't ball

00:41:55.920 or scream so they

00:41:57.320 feel like they have to

00:41:57.960 keep their composure

00:41:58.820 and just move on

00:41:59.680 and so they need

00:42:01.840 to take the drug

00:42:02.620 to do what's expected

00:42:03.640 just to get on with

00:42:04.720 life

00:42:05.040 yeah and I think

00:42:05.860 to get people back

00:42:06.640 to the workforce

00:42:07.220 I think people don't

00:42:08.900 really tolerate staying

00:42:10.260 out of the workforce

00:42:11.040 for too long

00:42:11.880 and it's also worth

00:42:12.960 mentioning that

00:42:13.880 there's a multi-billion

00:42:15.220 dollar pharmaceutical

00:42:16.140 industry that this

00:42:17.160 has helped cultivate

00:42:19.220 so grieving over a

00:42:22.000 loved one feels

00:42:23.120 awful

00:42:23.520 but what can that

00:42:26.020 grief teach us about

00:42:26.980 love

00:42:27.460 yeah you know and

00:42:29.680 that's something that

00:42:30.380 I turn to other

00:42:31.120 people in my community

00:42:32.640 because that's not the

00:42:33.820 kind of grief I've

00:42:34.760 experienced yet

00:42:35.600 the people that I

00:42:36.580 love and have lost

00:42:38.180 were older and I

00:42:39.720 got to say my

00:42:40.400 goodbyes and I was

00:42:42.460 there when they died

00:42:43.120 etc but there was a

00:42:44.680 woman in our community

00:42:45.420 called Karen Montgomery

00:42:46.360 and she would come to a

00:42:47.600 lot of our meetings

00:42:48.280 she was in a lot of my

00:42:49.020 classes and she was

00:42:49.860 talking about the

00:42:50.520 treasures of grief

00:42:51.440 and so I asked her

00:42:52.220 could I interview you

00:42:52.960 about this and she

00:42:54.200 was going through a

00:42:54.760 situation where her

00:42:55.580 father was dying of a

00:42:58.040 disease that ultimately

00:42:59.440 meant that he would

00:43:00.260 drown in his own

00:43:01.500 mucus I think his own

00:43:02.920 fluids and she was

00:43:05.680 watching him become

00:43:07.260 closer and closer to

00:43:08.420 that state and what she

00:43:10.200 told me that I think

00:43:11.060 was really interesting

00:43:11.900 and really beautiful

00:43:12.640 that her grief at

00:43:14.300 times was like

00:43:15.840 absolutely horrible

00:43:17.480 but it felt like a

00:43:18.560 cracking open also and

00:43:20.660 that that cracking open

00:43:21.880 allowed in other

00:43:22.840 things and so she said

00:43:23.860 that she would have

00:43:24.380 these incredibly moving

00:43:25.580 experiences it felt

00:43:26.640 like she was feeling

00:43:27.940 emotions much more

00:43:28.860 closely she would cry

00:43:30.640 when someone said

00:43:31.400 hello to her on the

00:43:32.160 street there was just a

00:43:32.860 sense of the beauty of

00:43:33.880 the world that I think

00:43:35.140 was part of her very

00:43:37.720 real reckoning with

00:43:39.260 knowing she had a

00:43:40.300 limited time with this

00:43:41.220 man that she loved so

00:43:42.260 much so I think from

00:43:44.160 what I understand as

00:43:45.960 someone who has not

00:43:47.180 again experienced that

00:43:48.100 kind of grief is it can

00:43:49.200 be a both end right I

00:43:50.960 don't think it means

00:43:51.680 the grief isn't

00:43:52.680 present or there's no

00:43:54.040 pain but it's more

00:43:55.380 like that pain opens

00:43:56.520 you up and I always

00:43:57.400 think of there's a

00:43:58.140 roomy poem that I put

00:43:59.440 in there that Leonard

00:44:00.840 Cohen also drew on the

00:44:03.280 imagery which is the

00:44:04.340 idea that it's the

00:44:05.400 crack in us that the

00:44:06.320 light gets in that the

00:44:08.220 beauty comes in through

00:44:09.380 the wound through the

00:44:10.400 crack through the pain

00:44:11.480 yeah the grief makes

00:44:13.480 the love more poignant

00:44:14.520 accentuates it yes and I

00:44:17.200 think this is the other

00:44:18.240 thing that we lose when

00:44:19.380 we lose a contemplation

00:44:20.560 of death and going

00:44:21.340 back to the vanitas

00:44:22.020 paintings that you

00:44:22.840 love part of what

00:44:24.200 makes things so

00:44:25.180 heartbreakingly beautiful

00:44:26.440 is knowing that we

00:44:27.860 will lose them that's

00:44:29.500 our condition that's

00:44:31.040 the earthly condition

00:44:32.040 but without that

00:44:33.920 knowing we would lose

00:44:35.000 it is the beauty is

00:44:36.620 intense you have a

00:44:38.580 chapter where you talk

00:44:40.040 about how humans have

00:44:42.460 a tendency to

00:44:43.840 communicate with their

00:44:45.120 dearly departed and even

00:44:47.260 people who don't

00:44:48.120 necessarily believe in

00:44:49.060 the afterlife will do

00:44:51.020 this what do you think

00:44:52.500 is behind this desire to

00:44:53.460 stay connected to the

00:44:54.840 dead yeah I love that

00:44:56.840 and you know I was

00:44:57.860 really surprised by that

00:44:58.760 research myself so

00:45:00.760 there's a guy up at

00:45:02.040 Columbia called

00:45:03.140 Bernardo who did this

00:45:04.540 research and what he

00:45:05.500 says in his book which

00:45:06.540 is called the other side

00:45:07.540 of sorrow I think or the

00:45:09.080 other side of grief which

00:45:10.760 I highly recommend is

00:45:11.980 that he you know he was a

00:45:13.160 scientist studying grief

00:45:14.260 and after his father died

00:45:15.380 he found that he was

00:45:16.200 talking to him and he

00:45:17.640 had no belief he

00:45:18.860 didn't believe that there

00:45:20.060 was a man in the

00:45:20.840 afterlife that he could

00:45:21.640 talk to it was more

00:45:22.480 just like a a visceral

00:45:24.280 response to the death

00:45:25.980 and what he found in his

00:45:27.500 interviews is many people

00:45:28.700 said the same and in

00:45:29.600 fact they said whether

00:45:30.560 it's capital T true or

00:45:32.140 not doesn't really

00:45:33.340 matter but they talk to

00:45:34.540 the dead and it makes

00:45:35.460 them feel better you

00:45:36.740 know and again this is

00:45:37.920 what I always want to

00:45:38.860 come back to is this

00:45:39.680 idea of practice over

00:45:40.760 belief I spent a lot of

00:45:41.900 time in Mexico and I

00:45:43.260 was talking to a Mexican

00:45:44.140 friend about his

00:45:45.580 grandmother who has

00:45:46.400 died and I said tell 0.62

00:45:47.600 me about you know tell

00:45:48.340 me about your

00:45:48.700 grandmother what do you

00:45:49.460 do on day of the dead

00:45:50.220 and he said oh on day of

00:45:50.980 the dead and on

00:45:51.600 Samana Santa I go to

00:45:53.260 the cemetery and I

00:45:54.160 talked to my dead

00:45:54.820 grandmother and then

00:45:56.400 you know he's like well

00:45:57.880 I mean I don't know if

00:45:58.460 I'm really talking to

00:45:59.600 her but I mean but

00:46:00.760 that's what we do and

00:46:02.100 I heard this again and

00:46:02.960 again it's not in the

00:46:05.020 at least with young

00:46:05.920 educated people the

00:46:07.120 sense I get is it's

00:46:07.960 not about belief it's

00:46:09.700 about tradition and

00:46:10.560 practice and I think

00:46:12.060 that's something we

00:46:12.760 can all learn from I

00:46:13.760 think you know one of

00:46:14.520 the biggest challenges

00:46:15.620 to living at this

00:46:16.820 particular time in human

00:46:18.680 history is we have this

00:46:19.980 voice inside us that's

00:46:21.340 always saying is that

00:46:22.160 real is it not real is

00:46:23.520 that true or is it not

00:46:24.340 true and I don't think

00:46:25.500 300 years ago most of

00:46:26.980 our ancestors had that

00:46:28.140 voice so I think it

00:46:30.040 estranges us from

00:46:31.100 experience I talked to

00:46:32.680 the dead I talked to my

00:46:33.580 cats I talked to everybody

00:46:34.780 if I had to answer do I

00:46:36.200 really think I'm talking

00:46:37.080 to the dead I don't know

00:46:38.180 but I know it makes me

00:46:39.720 feel good right and I

00:46:41.640 think that's again coming

00:46:43.140 back to our own myth of

00:46:44.680 death yeah I just love

00:46:46.720 the idea of just staying

00:46:47.700 connected to the dead

00:46:49.340 like they're still with

00:46:50.280 you even though their

00:46:52.140 body's in the ground

00:46:53.400 decomposing or maybe

00:46:54.640 that's been cremated I

00:46:56.140 mean that's why I love

00:46:56.740 the movie Coco so much

00:46:58.460 it's oh my god it's it's

00:47:00.580 my favorite Disney movie

00:47:01.760 that movie destroyed me

00:47:03.200 when I watched it because

00:47:05.480 the thing that got me was

00:47:06.760 when that one skeleton

00:47:09.060 ghost guy who was about

00:47:11.420 to be forgotten because

00:47:12.960 there's only one person

00:47:13.920 on the living world that

00:47:14.740 still remembered him and

00:47:16.060 then that person died and

00:47:18.220 then that guy no one on

00:47:19.700 earth remembered him and

00:47:20.740 so he disappeared and I

00:47:22.180 was like I don't want that

00:47:23.300 to happen to my

00:47:24.740 grandparents my ancestors

00:47:26.760 like I want them to be

00:47:28.100 their memory still to be

00:47:29.720 here some way so I want to

00:47:30.860 stay connected to them

00:47:31.760 somehow so that's why I

00:47:33.340 like genealogy I like

00:47:34.820 looking at old pictures

00:47:35.660 of my family that have

00:47:38.340 died I just love that

00:47:40.160 idea of making sure that

00:47:41.040 their memory still lives

00:47:42.000 on in some way yeah and

00:47:44.060 I think that's a deep

00:47:45.180 deep human drive again

00:47:46.880 like in an age of

00:47:47.740 rationality we might

00:47:48.580 question it but that's

00:47:50.020 what people have been

00:47:50.660 doing for millennia all

00:47:52.140 around the world right

00:47:53.120 it's a natural part of

00:47:54.520 being human whether again

00:47:56.080 there's an external truth

00:47:58.000 that we're responding to

00:47:58.980 or it's just what our

00:48:00.040 brain wants to do it's

00:48:01.220 real and it's comforting

00:48:02.560 and it's beautiful

00:48:03.700 so one thing you

00:48:05.500 recommend people do is

00:48:07.460 to start thinking about

00:48:10.100 their own death so

00:48:11.560 through momenta mori

00:48:12.560 these different practices

00:48:13.720 getting comfortable with

00:48:15.660 death coming to terms

00:48:16.380 with it but also think

00:48:17.260 about your own death and

00:48:19.000 like what you want it to

00:48:20.100 look like and there's

00:48:21.120 this idea of the good

00:48:21.980 death that's out there

00:48:23.600 what is the good death

00:48:24.620 well I think that's a

00:48:26.060 very personal question

00:48:27.060 typically during the

00:48:28.120 Victorian era the idea 0.77

00:48:29.500 how people wanted to

00:48:30.720 die what they called a 0.92

00:48:31.580 good death was to die at

00:48:32.720 home surrounded by their

00:48:34.540 loved ones including the

00:48:35.680 children where they

00:48:36.400 could then tell people

00:48:37.400 what they wanted done

00:48:38.180 with all of their

00:48:38.720 property and things and

00:48:39.960 then dying peacefully

00:48:41.360 now it can be lots of

00:48:43.220 things I hear a lot of

00:48:44.040 people saying that for

00:48:44.920 them a good death would

00:48:45.840 be dying in their sleep

00:48:46.920 without pain so I think

00:48:48.780 that's a question one

00:48:49.700 needs to ask themselves

00:48:50.720 what is a good death to

00:48:51.920 you if you could choose

00:48:52.840 how to die what would

00:48:53.740 that be for me I'd like

00:48:55.360 to be conscious you know

00:48:56.580 I'd like to go into the

00:48:57.660 mystery with

00:48:58.760 consciousness I don't

00:48:59.780 want to be drugged I

00:49:00.720 want to experience this

00:49:02.000 mystery but I think

00:49:03.280 that's a very personal

00:49:04.080 question how about you

00:49:04.920 Brett what's a good

00:49:05.680 death for you I was

00:49:07.320 actually thinking about

00:49:08.500 this while I was reading

00:49:09.420 your book so I'd like to

00:49:11.780 be aware that I was

00:49:13.540 going and I'd like to be

00:49:16.280 surrounded by loved ones

00:49:18.040 in my house that's how I

00:49:20.520 like to die and I think

00:49:22.040 it's wonderful that more

00:49:22.920 and more people through

00:49:23.840 hospice etc are being able

00:49:25.500 to do that right I think

00:49:27.360 that's wonderful and then

00:49:28.920 you also talk about

00:49:29.480 different rituals that

00:49:30.440 people have done

00:49:31.340 different cultures to

00:49:33.020 prepare for their death

00:49:33.740 like one is the Swedish

00:49:34.700 death cleaning what is

00:49:36.560 Swedish death cleaning

00:49:37.420 yeah so Swedish death 1.00

00:49:39.100 cleaning is amazing I

00:49:40.320 think it's amazing and

00:49:41.280 it's part of the Swedish

00:49:42.340 tradition from what I

00:49:43.280 understand where as

00:49:44.780 people grow older an act

00:49:46.960 of care and love and

00:49:50.120 practicality is to start

00:49:51.540 to get rid of their 0.91

00:49:52.300 things and I can say as

00:49:54.000 someone who's been on

00:49:54.960 the other side of death in

00:49:56.380 this culture my ex-boyfriend

00:49:58.160 his mother died when we

00:49:59.300 were together and emptying

00:50:01.160 out her house was 0.87

00:50:02.040 terrible for him you know

00:50:04.180 he had an estate sale and

00:50:05.360 it was so brutal to watch

00:50:07.300 people picking over and you

00:50:09.300 know trying to bargain on

00:50:10.740 the things his mother loved

00:50:12.080 that are now completely

00:50:13.220 worthless so the idea is to

00:50:14.780 save your loved ones this

00:50:17.080 trauma of having to deal

00:50:18.340 with all of your stuff and

00:50:19.860 so my mother is going

00:50:20.740 through this right now she's

00:50:21.720 emptying her house she's 0.98

00:50:22.600 going through every bag and

00:50:23.980 every box and getting rid of

00:50:25.240 things so I think it's a

00:50:26.640 natural part it can be at

00:50:28.820 least a natural part of

00:50:29.900 getting older and preparing

00:50:30.960 for knowing that you don't

00:50:32.500 have that much time left

00:50:33.560 and then you talk about

00:50:34.560 this too even if you're

00:50:35.820 young and healthy and you

00:50:37.640 know death is not anywhere

00:50:38.620 near you you can start

00:50:40.140 preparing kind of doing

00:50:41.260 your own Swedish death

00:50:42.400 cleaning by taking care of

00:50:43.800 the practicalities of your

00:50:45.440 own death and it's just

00:50:46.620 basic stuff that people

00:50:47.940 talked about you know life

00:50:49.420 insurance for your family

00:50:51.000 make sure they're taken

00:50:51.660 care of when you're gone

00:50:52.740 having an advanced

00:50:53.640 directive what do you

00:50:55.260 want that to look like

00:50:56.260 a will estate planning

00:50:59.140 that practicality stuff

00:51:00.540 you don't think about

00:51:01.520 that but it's like the

00:51:02.980 gift you can give your

00:51:04.380 family before you go

00:51:05.720 and just to piggyback on

00:51:07.620 that there's a member of

00:51:08.840 our community John

00:51:09.580 Troyer he's at the

00:51:10.580 Center for Death and

00:51:11.240 Society in Bath and he

00:51:12.400 lost his sister and his

00:51:14.400 mother and his father I

00:51:15.520 believe and he said if he

00:51:18.060 could have changed

00:51:18.780 anything it would have

00:51:19.840 been having their

00:51:21.000 passwords so I say

00:51:22.720 that to all your

00:51:23.220 listeners leave your

00:51:24.540 password somewhere for

00:51:25.720 your loved ones that's

00:51:26.740 something that I've done

00:51:27.580 with my husband as well

00:51:28.800 a will and your password

00:51:30.620 so that person can get

00:51:31.640 into your bank account

00:51:32.480 and all of those things

00:51:33.440 you'd be shocked at how

00:51:34.380 hard that can be once you

00:51:35.980 die so after years of

00:51:37.780 studying and teaching

00:51:38.820 about death how is your

00:51:40.000 own relationship to

00:51:40.820 mortality changed well I

00:51:43.440 would say I'm not afraid

00:51:44.260 of it anymore and you

00:51:45.300 know in retrospect I

00:51:46.220 would say that's probably

00:51:47.480 why I started this

00:51:49.260 project you know I

00:51:50.260 started to have this

00:51:50.900 obsession with looking at

00:51:52.060 the way death was

00:51:52.780 dealt with in different

00:51:53.460 times and places as a

00:51:55.400 way to understand things

00:51:56.860 that could be

00:51:57.880 complementary to our own

00:51:59.120 view you know growing up

00:52:00.320 in a culture as many of

00:52:01.940 us many of your listeners

00:52:02.720 have I'm sure where we're

00:52:04.280 not given a whole lot of

00:52:05.360 tools on how to deal with

00:52:06.720 death or how to prepare or

00:52:08.220 how to to live our lives

00:52:10.160 really and I think doing

00:52:11.820 all this work I'm ready to

00:52:13.820 go I mean I don't want to

00:52:15.160 it's not my my dream but

00:52:17.280 whenever I start freaking

00:52:18.460 out too much I just go back

00:52:19.640 to that Jungian dream

00:52:20.480 meditation and I imagine

00:52:22.160 myself emotionally

00:52:23.720 divesting myself from

00:52:24.900 everything that I care

00:52:25.760 about and how good that

00:52:27.000 feels and I just come back

00:52:28.760 to that again and again in

00:52:29.820 these times where so much

00:52:32.000 is uncertain and we can

00:52:33.140 only do the best we can and

00:52:34.680 hope to die with the fewest

00:52:37.020 number of regrets and it

00:52:38.640 sounds like it's improved

00:52:39.400 your life now you're happier

00:52:41.060 you're more content it puts

00:52:42.240 things in perspective and I

00:52:44.040 would say to an even

00:52:45.440 greater degree the reason

00:52:47.040 that I'm ready to die is

00:52:48.260 because I've lived the

00:52:49.140 life I want to I've

00:52:50.300 taken a lot of risks you

00:52:51.700 know I don't have a huge

00:52:52.660 bank account I don't have

00:52:54.220 a lot of security but I'm

00:52:55.640 doing work that I

00:52:56.600 absolutely love that feels

00:52:57.920 important and vital and

00:52:59.240 meaningful to me and to my

00:53:00.680 community and that gives me

00:53:02.580 a sense of meaning and

00:53:04.080 satisfaction where I feel

00:53:06.120 like this is what I wanted

00:53:07.400 to do with my life and I

00:53:08.400 did it and I'm I'm really I

00:53:11.540 don't say please because

00:53:12.520 that's it's almost just

00:53:13.400 satisfied I have

00:53:14.480 satisfaction and I have

00:53:17.020 good relationships with

00:53:18.380 people that I care very

00:53:19.540 much about and I hope to

00:53:21.440 hold their hand one of

00:53:22.540 their hands as I go into

00:53:23.720 the next stage of

00:53:24.480 existence that's that's

00:53:25.720 it well Joanna this has

00:53:27.000 been a great conversation

00:53:27.960 where can people go to

00:53:28.820 learn more about the book

00:53:29.580 in your work yeah you can

00:53:31.060 learn more at morbidanatomy.org

00:53:32.980 if these are the sorts of

00:53:34.080 things that interest you I

00:53:35.100 do encourage you to come

00:53:36.200 we have a really vibrant

00:53:37.420 community of people from

00:53:38.540 all over the world who are

00:53:39.620 having conversations about

00:53:40.860 this we have classes we

00:53:42.560 have lectures we have many

00:53:43.740 books and if you're in

00:53:45.060 Brooklyn we have an open

00:53:45.920 to the public research

00:53:46.900 library I'm sitting in it

00:53:48.080 right now you can also

00:53:49.400 find us on social media at

00:53:51.360 morbidanatomy on

00:53:52.280 Instagram and Facebook

00:53:53.420 fantastic well Joanna

00:53:54.680 Ebenstein thanks for the

00:53:55.520 time it's been a pleasure

00:53:56.120 thank you so much Brett I'm

00:53:57.580 so glad you enjoyed the

00:53:58.480 book and it's been a

00:53:59.140 pleasure for me too my

00:54:01.320 guest today was Joanna

00:54:01.960 Ebenstein she's the author

00:54:03.140 of the book Memento

00:54:04.080 Mori it's available on

00:54:04.920 amazon.com and bookstores

00:54:06.120 everywhere you find more

00:54:07.240 information about her work

00:54:07.880 at our website

00:54:08.500 joannaebenstein.com also

00:54:10.600 check out our show notes

00:54:11.300 at aom.is slash

00:54:12.580 Memento Mori where you

00:54:13.640 find links to resources

00:54:14.540 we delve deeper into this

00:54:15.500 topic

00:54:15.860 well that wraps up another

00:54:24.860 edition of the AOM podcast

00:54:26.040 make sure to check out our

00:54:26.900 website at artofmanless.com

00:54:28.180 where you find our podcast

00:54:29.020 archives and while you're

00:54:29.900 there sign up for our

00:54:30.740 art of manless newsletter

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00:54:34.160 free it's the best way to

00:54:35.520 stay on top of what's going

00:54:36.260 on at AOM and if you've

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00:54:38.740 appreciate if you take one

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00:54:40.260 Apple podcast or Spotify it

00:54:41.460 helps that a lot and if

00:54:42.360 you've done that already

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00:54:44.460 sharing the show with a

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00:54:45.980 you think we're

00:54:46.480 something out of it as

00:54:47.760 always thank you for the

00:54:48.620 continued support until

00:54:49.320 next time it's Brett McKay

00:54:50.280 remind you to have a

00:54:51.100 list of the AOM podcast

00:54:51.880 but put what you've heard

00:54:53.120 into action

00:54:53.800 before you go here's another

00:55:12.180 one to queue up next I talked

00:55:13.740 to Ben Aldridge about his

00:55:14.740 book seriously happy where he

00:55:16.120 takes the big ideas from

00:55:17.140 ancient philosophies like

00:55:18.080 Buddhism cynicism stoicism and 1.00

00:55:20.980 turns them into real doable

00:55:22.720 challenges for becoming a

00:55:23.940 better happier person we get

00:55:26.260 into everything from

00:55:26.820 cultivating virtue to walking

00:55:28.100 a banana and taking a

00:55:29.400 wui adventure it's fun

00:55:31.180 practical and surprisingly

00:55:32.840 deep you can check it out

00:55:34.320 at AOM dot is slash

00:55:36.200 seriously happy again that's

00:55:38.040 AOM dot is slash seriously

00:55:39.940 happy

The Art of Manliness - October 28, 2025

Make Friends With Death to Live a Better Life

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