The Art of Manliness - Masculinity as Confident Competence

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00:01:13.340 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.260 and welcome to another edition

00:01:15.280 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:17.560 There's a lot of debate these days

00:01:18.920 about what it means to be a man,

00:01:20.220 but maybe the answer is simpler than we think,

00:01:22.500 and a lot of masculinity just comes down

00:01:24.300 to confident competence,

00:01:26.040 a broad set of know-how,

00:01:27.320 the ability to get stuff done,

00:01:29.120 the capacity to move through the world

00:01:30.520 with purpose and skill.

00:01:32.200 As someone who's lived several lives in one,

00:01:34.440 Elliot Ackerman certainly embodies that ethos.

00:01:36.780 He's a decorated Marine,

00:01:38.240 a former CIA paramilitary officer,

00:01:40.460 a National Book Award-nominated novelist,

00:01:42.540 and now the writer of

00:01:43.480 A Man Should Know,

00:01:44.920 a column at the free press

00:01:45.980 that explores the small but significant skills

00:01:47.960 that shape a man's life.

00:01:49.300 Today on the show,

00:01:50.360 Elliot and I talk about

00:01:51.160 why young men are struggling,

00:01:52.620 how intention, discipline,

00:01:53.940 and competence can change

00:01:54.780 the way a man carries himself,

00:01:56.240 and a few of the specific skills

00:01:57.480 a man should know,

00:01:58.500 from how to wear a watch

00:01:59.500 to how to give a eulogy.

00:02:01.360 After the show's over,

00:02:02.200 check out our show notes

00:02:02.840 at aom.is slash competence.

00:02:16.880 All right, Elliot Ackerman,

00:02:18.460 welcome to the show.

00:02:19.620 Thanks so much for having me on.

00:02:21.160 So you've got an interesting background.

00:02:23.100 You're a Marine who served multiple tours

00:02:25.220 in the Middle East and then Southeast Asia.

00:02:27.940 Then you went on to work as a CIA officer,

00:02:30.060 and now you write literature.

00:02:32.160 You're a fiction author.

00:02:33.260 Let's talk about your military career.

00:02:34.700 Why did you join?

00:02:35.760 Was it something where you had,

00:02:37.140 you know, a family history of military service,

00:02:39.620 or was it something else?

00:02:41.300 Yeah, no, I didn't have a family history

00:02:42.740 of military service.

00:02:44.240 I guess I'd say there are kind of really

00:02:45.700 three reasons why I joined.

00:02:48.300 I'd say first is I grew up overseas for a while,

00:02:51.640 so I was in the UK.

00:02:53.180 But even being in the UK,

00:02:54.420 I think it kind of gave me a little bit

00:02:55.580 of an outsider's perspective of,

00:02:57.600 you know, many of the benefits

00:02:58.800 that we have in our life as Americans,

00:03:00.760 and that made me want to give back and serve.

00:03:03.760 So that was part of it.

00:03:05.320 Another part was I think I wanted a job,

00:03:08.460 whether I was good at my job,

00:03:10.120 really mattered,

00:03:11.040 and the stakes were high.

00:03:12.120 So I guess in another way,

00:03:13.280 you know, I want to say like,

00:03:14.040 I want a responsibility at a young age,

00:03:15.640 and you certainly get that in the military

00:03:17.500 and in the Marine Corps.

00:03:18.740 Then I would say the last thing was,

00:03:20.260 you know, I was kind of like that kid

00:03:21.040 who never stopped playing with his GI Joes.

00:03:23.100 I always had like this fascination

00:03:24.560 with the military.

00:03:26.080 So, you know, when the time came,

00:03:27.320 I think those three forces

00:03:28.720 kind of led me into the Marines.

00:03:30.860 So as a Marine,

00:03:31.640 you earned the Silver Star,

00:03:33.400 the Bronze Star, Purple Heart,

00:03:36.000 and then after the military,

00:03:37.160 you joined the CIA Special Operations Unit

00:03:39.540 as a paramilitary operations officer.

00:03:42.900 And then after that,

00:03:44.100 you transitioned to being a fiction writer.

00:03:46.400 How and why did you make that shift?

00:03:48.360 You know, well,

00:03:48.800 when I was getting out of the service,

00:03:50.140 you know, I served for about eight years,

00:03:51.640 had a positive experience.

00:03:52.940 I mean, they were tough eight years,

00:03:53.860 but my experience was very positive.

00:03:55.600 But it just sort of made the decision

00:03:56.800 that it wasn't the only thing

00:03:58.040 that I wanted to do with my life.

00:03:59.100 There were other things I wanted to do,

00:04:00.380 even though I wasn't entirely sure

00:04:01.620 what all of them were.

00:04:02.540 So I got out.

00:04:03.600 I went out working in politics

00:04:04.780 for a couple of years.

00:04:06.440 And a few folks along the way

00:04:07.400 had encouraged me, you know,

00:04:08.460 and said, hey, you know,

00:04:09.120 maybe you should write a book.

00:04:10.100 Have you ever thought about,

00:04:10.600 you know, writing a book

00:04:11.160 about some of your experiences?

00:04:12.980 And I didn't really want to write

00:04:14.360 that type of kind of like a,

00:04:15.680 you know, hey, bro,

00:04:16.940 there I was like type memoir.

00:04:18.820 That didn't really seem,

00:04:19.900 I don't know, it wasn't really my style.

00:04:21.120 But there've been a lot of books

00:04:22.100 that meant a lot to me

00:04:23.200 when I was heading into the service.

00:04:25.500 And most of those books

00:04:26.140 actually had been novels,

00:04:28.100 books like Jim Webb's Fields of Fire.

00:04:30.420 If you know who Jim Webb is,

00:04:31.460 he's the Secretary of the Navy,

00:04:33.160 Senator, but before that,

00:04:34.460 he was a young Marine infantry officer

00:04:36.060 in Vietnam.

00:04:37.040 And he wrote a novel

00:04:38.780 about his experiences

00:04:39.820 or books like, you know,

00:04:40.680 Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried.

00:04:42.200 So I sort of had this inclination

00:04:43.960 that, okay, I do want to write

00:04:45.040 about my experiences,

00:04:46.040 but I want to try to write

00:04:46.760 a novel about them.

00:04:47.820 And so that got me

00:04:48.940 into writing fiction.

00:04:50.600 And I just sort of sat down,

00:04:52.040 wrote one book

00:04:52.660 and then another,

00:04:53.540 and then kind of the rest is history.

00:04:54.960 And so are the themes

00:04:55.860 that you write about,

00:04:56.720 are they based around war?

00:04:57.900 I think conflict

00:04:59.300 is a reoccurring theme

00:05:01.300 in many of my books

00:05:02.380 as are other themes,

00:05:04.080 you know, like marriage,

00:05:05.860 brotherhood, you know, politics.

00:05:08.500 I've certainly written

00:05:09.060 a couple of political thrillers

00:05:10.280 at this point in my career.

00:05:11.960 But yes, oftentimes,

00:05:13.360 you know, you'll find

00:05:13.940 sort of conflict

00:05:14.720 or the aftermath of conflict

00:05:16.180 lurking around

00:05:17.140 in the pages of my books.

00:05:18.620 You know, besides Jim Webb

00:05:20.000 and some of these other writers

00:05:21.360 who wrote specifically about war

00:05:22.920 and maybe had a military background,

00:05:25.180 were there any other authors

00:05:26.300 that you look to for inspiration?

00:05:28.880 No, I think, you know,

00:05:29.400 one of the things

00:05:29.660 that's remarkable

00:05:30.140 when you look at like

00:05:30.880 American letters in particular

00:05:33.220 is how much there is

00:05:35.420 that is written about war,

00:05:37.400 but we don't necessarily

00:05:37.960 consider like a war novel.

00:05:40.140 Like you consider, yeah,

00:05:41.040 like Jim Webb's Field of Fire,

00:05:42.160 that's a war novel

00:05:43.000 or the things they carried

00:05:44.080 or Karl Marlantis' Matterhorn.

00:05:46.220 But you can see war

00:05:48.220 shot through so many of our books.

00:05:49.680 So like inspiration for me, sure.

00:05:51.200 Like for my money,

00:05:52.380 I think the greatest war novel

00:05:54.060 ever written

00:05:54.760 out of the Second World War

00:05:55.960 is The Catcher in the Rye.

00:05:58.180 And a lot of people

00:05:59.120 don't think of

00:05:59.760 The Catcher in the Rye

00:06:00.760 as a book that's about war.

00:06:02.180 You know, think of it about this,

00:06:03.040 a book about this guy

00:06:03.820 named Holden Caulfield

00:06:04.980 and, you know,

00:06:05.860 he is a boarding school kid

00:06:08.260 and he's wandering

00:06:09.020 around New York City

00:06:10.040 and it's this sort of novel

00:06:11.640 that's about youthful disaffectation.

00:06:14.700 But if you know anything

00:06:15.540 about J.D. Salinger,

00:06:16.600 who wrote The Catcher in the Rye,

00:06:18.100 you know, he landed on D-Day,

00:06:20.280 he fought in the Hurkin Forest,

00:06:21.600 and he liberated

00:06:22.780 the concentration camps.

00:06:24.760 And when you read

00:06:26.600 Catcher in the Rye,

00:06:28.200 a book that's sort of known

00:06:29.040 for the voice

00:06:30.040 of Holden Caulfield,

00:06:31.380 you know, that voice

00:06:32.080 of that disaffected young man

00:06:33.880 is really the voice

00:06:35.220 of an American veteran.

00:06:36.540 I mean, you can hear

00:06:37.540 how disaffected J.D. Salinger

00:06:39.700 is in Holden Caulfield's voice.

00:06:41.140 And the last line of that book

00:06:42.480 is don't tell anybody anything,

00:06:45.940 otherwise you start missing everyone.

00:06:48.040 And that is definitely

00:06:49.300 the voice of a veteran.

00:06:50.680 So, you know, for me

00:06:51.820 and any of the writers

00:06:52.460 who also inspire me,

00:06:54.000 you know, are ones

00:06:54.760 who found kind of different ways

00:06:56.560 to write about conflict

00:06:57.580 and process conflict

00:06:58.560 like Salinger did.

00:06:59.800 That's interesting.

00:07:00.260 Yeah, I never would have thought

00:07:00.920 of Catcher in the Rye

00:07:01.580 as a war novel.

00:07:03.400 If you look up on Salinger,

00:07:05.200 you can see the war

00:07:06.260 is sort of all over his writings.

00:07:09.020 In a few places,

00:07:09.780 he takes it head on,

00:07:10.780 but mostly he doesn't.

00:07:11.980 It's always sort of adjacent.

00:07:13.600 And you know, like Tim O'Brien,

00:07:14.700 when he says, you know,

00:07:15.660 he says that he writes about war

00:07:17.280 so that he can write

00:07:17.920 about other things.

00:07:19.140 And I've certainly felt

00:07:19.920 that in my work.

00:07:20.760 I mean, when you tell someone

00:07:21.420 you're writing about war,

00:07:22.320 it kind of sounds like

00:07:22.940 you're going to write a book

00:07:23.560 that's just all about

00:07:24.220 like tank movements

00:07:25.280 and aircraft battles.

00:07:26.620 And, you know, in my books,

00:07:27.840 it's not necessarily

00:07:28.400 what's going on.

00:07:29.540 You know, the war is there.

00:07:30.880 It's present.

00:07:31.940 It's impacting the actions

00:07:33.960 of the characters.

00:07:34.640 But, you know, fundamentally,

00:07:35.940 the books are about

00:07:37.140 those characters themselves.

00:07:39.000 And, you know, the types of books

00:07:40.160 that, you know, I enjoy reading

00:07:41.500 are usually pretty character-driven

00:07:43.100 and are not just about, you know,

00:07:44.480 just the technical aspects of war.

00:07:46.140 So you've got a new column out

00:07:49.000 at the Free Press.

00:07:50.460 It's kind of different

00:07:51.460 from what you've done

00:07:52.760 with your fiction work.

00:07:53.920 It's called A Man Should Know.

00:07:55.780 And every week,

00:07:56.520 you're taking on a topic

00:07:57.860 or an idea, a skill

00:07:59.080 that you think a man should know.

00:08:01.700 What was the impetus

00:08:02.580 behind this column?

00:08:04.200 Well, you know,

00:08:05.180 I do a lot of work as a journalist,

00:08:06.860 so I write pieces

00:08:07.540 from time to time.

00:08:08.380 Usually my kind of forte

00:08:11.180 is, you know,

00:08:12.600 national security stuff.

00:08:13.940 But I was actually,

00:08:14.560 I was at a party

00:08:15.320 and I bumped into Barry Weiss

00:08:17.480 who runs the Free Press

00:08:18.660 and she and I have known each other

00:08:19.860 for many, many years

00:08:20.740 and I've written for her

00:08:21.400 for many, many years.

00:08:22.140 And I was wearing a suit

00:08:23.220 and she said,

00:08:24.420 hey, that's a really nice suit.

00:08:25.500 And basically,

00:08:25.860 I told her the story

00:08:26.400 behind the suit

00:08:26.900 was that when I left the military

00:08:29.120 and went to go work at CIA,

00:08:31.000 I was, when I was back in the U.S.,

00:08:32.100 I was going to have to wear

00:08:32.560 a suit to work every day.

00:08:33.900 And I had no suits.

00:08:34.760 I had nothing to wear.

00:08:35.340 So my father,

00:08:36.820 who had a business career,

00:08:38.660 basically said,

00:08:39.500 hey, you know,

00:08:39.860 it's a gift for you

00:08:40.660 getting out of the Marines.

00:08:42.420 Go into my closet

00:08:43.300 and, you know,

00:08:43.840 pick out three suits

00:08:44.800 and we'll go to the tailor together

00:08:46.020 and we'll get them

00:08:46.580 kind of fitted for you

00:08:47.460 so you can wear them.

00:08:48.540 And they were really

00:08:49.120 well-made suits

00:08:50.020 and I, you know,

00:08:50.880 my father has since

00:08:51.780 passed away, unfortunately,

00:08:52.720 but I still wear those suits

00:08:53.900 to this day.

00:08:55.080 So Barry just asked me

00:08:56.160 to write a column for her

00:08:57.060 about, you know,

00:08:58.020 why you should wear a suit,

00:08:59.140 why it's worth

00:08:59.580 putting on a suit

00:09:00.440 and having, you know,

00:09:01.500 tailor to clothe it.

00:09:02.300 So I wrote that column

00:09:03.280 and people seemed to like it

00:09:05.100 and so this series of columns

00:09:07.540 sort of comes out of that

00:09:08.840 and, you know,

00:09:09.460 there's a lot of conversations,

00:09:10.440 you know,

00:09:11.260 about masculinity

00:09:12.300 and what it means

00:09:13.320 to be a man

00:09:14.120 and I'm not trying

00:09:15.880 to finger-wag anyone

00:09:17.040 and tell them

00:09:17.700 how to be a man

00:09:18.960 or that these little things

00:09:20.360 like wearing a suit

00:09:21.280 or how to buy a watch

00:09:22.620 or any of that,

00:09:23.660 you know,

00:09:24.220 differentiate you

00:09:24.860 and make you a good man

00:09:25.680 or a bad man.

00:09:26.600 What I do know

00:09:27.540 is that in my own life's journey,

00:09:29.300 when I think about

00:09:29.980 so many of the men

00:09:31.340 and women

00:09:32.060 who kind of taught me

00:09:34.080 some of the skills

00:09:34.780 that I just value

00:09:35.620 as a man,

00:09:36.620 there are often

00:09:37.060 just these little things

00:09:37.960 like my father

00:09:38.740 taking me to the tailor

00:09:39.820 being like,

00:09:40.420 hey,

00:09:40.540 I'm going to get

00:09:40.960 this suit cut for you.

00:09:41.720 Here's what you need to know

00:09:42.460 when you buy a suit.

00:09:43.200 Here's the questions to ask

00:09:44.180 or a fighter pilot

00:09:45.600 friend of mine

00:09:46.240 who kind of taught me

00:09:47.400 about watches

00:09:48.080 and gave me the theory

00:09:49.080 for the case of,

00:09:49.800 you know,

00:09:49.900 hey,

00:09:50.020 why it's worth investing

00:09:50.880 in a nice watch

00:09:51.520 that you'll wear

00:09:52.100 through your whole life

00:09:53.320 and so,

00:09:54.220 so these are all little things

00:09:55.140 that are always framed to me

00:09:55.760 like,

00:09:55.980 hey,

00:09:56.100 you know,

00:09:56.280 like a man should know

00:09:57.180 how to do this

00:09:57.800 and I think oftentimes

00:09:58.820 we can,

00:09:59.860 you know,

00:09:59.980 we can talk about masculinity

00:10:01.140 with real specific things,

00:10:02.880 little,

00:10:03.280 you know,

00:10:03.480 little skills

00:10:04.080 that are just passed down

00:10:05.020 from one generation

00:10:05.880 to another

00:10:06.440 and so that's sort of

00:10:07.000 what I'm trying to do

00:10:07.560 in this column.

00:10:08.500 Yeah,

00:10:08.720 as I've read them,

00:10:09.940 it seems to me

00:10:10.480 like the overarching

00:10:11.180 aim of this column

00:10:13.240 is to encourage

00:10:14.100 competency in men.

00:10:16.240 Yeah.

00:10:16.580 Why do you think

00:10:17.020 competence is such

00:10:18.080 an important aspect

00:10:19.160 of a man's sense of self?

00:10:21.340 You know,

00:10:21.820 I think it's definitely

00:10:23.040 competence,

00:10:24.700 Brett,

00:10:24.880 and I'd say

00:10:25.820 in addition

00:10:26.480 with that competence,

00:10:27.440 it's also intentionality,

00:10:29.440 you know,

00:10:30.020 like waking up every day

00:10:31.480 with a plan,

00:10:32.540 like what am I going

00:10:33.640 to do today?

00:10:34.320 What am I going

00:10:34.840 to accomplish?

00:10:36.020 How am I going

00:10:36.520 to move the ball

00:10:37.300 forward in my life?

00:10:38.840 You know,

00:10:39.060 whether that's

00:10:39.460 in my professional life,

00:10:40.500 my personal life,

00:10:41.520 just all of these

00:10:42.540 little things

00:10:43.040 of living with intention

00:10:44.480 and oftentimes

00:10:45.560 it starts with,

00:10:47.280 you know,

00:10:47.460 just with the very

00:10:48.380 small things that we do.

00:10:49.620 I mean,

00:10:49.760 you have to be competent

00:10:50.620 in those small things.

00:10:51.660 You know,

00:10:51.800 it's worth knowing

00:10:53.020 how to,

00:10:53.720 you know,

00:10:54.340 just get yourself dressed

00:10:55.500 so you present well,

00:10:56.660 understanding how to

00:10:57.380 introduce yourself

00:10:58.060 to somebody else.

00:10:59.060 You know,

00:10:59.220 if someone invites you

00:10:59.940 over to their home

00:11:00.440 for a meal,

00:11:01.240 understanding how

00:11:01.760 to thank them properly

00:11:02.620 so they know

00:11:03.500 how much you appreciate

00:11:04.480 them having you over.

00:11:06.160 You know,

00:11:06.600 and so often

00:11:07.120 these are just,

00:11:07.620 you know,

00:11:07.740 these are little things

00:11:08.580 like we know them

00:11:09.680 when we're adults

00:11:10.440 and we don't necessarily

00:11:11.260 know how we know them.

00:11:12.900 But looking at maybe

00:11:13.960 younger people today,

00:11:14.680 I'm like,

00:11:14.880 you know,

00:11:15.000 I wonder if anyone

00:11:16.400 is sitting down

00:11:17.040 with that intentionality

00:11:17.920 and talking to young men

00:11:18.980 and saying like,

00:11:19.740 hey,

00:11:19.920 this is,

00:11:20.780 you know,

00:11:21.040 this is how you tie a tie.

00:11:23.180 And if someone

00:11:24.220 hasn't taught you

00:11:24.920 how to tie a tie,

00:11:26.220 you know,

00:11:26.500 I don't pick up my column,

00:11:27.360 I'll teach you how,

00:11:28.120 but it's worth

00:11:28.660 knowing these things.

00:11:30.000 Yeah,

00:11:30.140 and the work I've done

00:11:31.340 with the art of manliness

00:11:32.900 for almost 20 years now,

00:11:34.840 one thing I've noticed

00:11:35.840 is that men,

00:11:36.680 but particularly young men,

00:11:38.440 they want to feel

00:11:39.380 like they're good

00:11:40.160 at something.

00:11:40.780 They want to feel

00:11:41.380 like they can take

00:11:42.220 care of business.

00:11:43.300 They want to feel

00:11:44.360 like they're useful.

00:11:45.900 And I mean,

00:11:46.380 I think I've seen

00:11:47.560 this sort of,

00:11:48.120 there's sort of this sense,

00:11:49.160 I think that a lot

00:11:50.020 of men feel like

00:11:50.880 they're not useful anymore

00:11:52.660 or they don't have

00:11:54.560 the competency

00:11:55.300 to navigate

00:11:56.560 the world today.

00:11:57.980 And it,

00:11:58.620 I mean,

00:11:58.880 it really does,

00:11:59.620 it does something

00:12:00.420 to your sense of self

00:12:02.000 and your sense of ability

00:12:03.600 to have an impact

00:12:05.660 on the world.

00:12:06.180 And it's always amazing,

00:12:07.120 you know,

00:12:07.500 when I work with young men

00:12:08.700 at my church

00:12:09.500 and we have a,

00:12:10.560 you know,

00:12:10.860 Wednesday night activity

00:12:11.640 where we're just

00:12:12.320 teaching a skill.

00:12:13.880 And for some of these kids,

00:12:14.920 it's like really basic stuff.

00:12:16.340 Like,

00:12:16.600 man,

00:12:16.740 why didn't you learn

00:12:17.720 this at home?

00:12:19.180 But when they learn it,

00:12:20.780 like their eyes light up.

00:12:22.180 They're like,

00:12:22.360 oh my gosh,

00:12:23.060 like I can do this now.

00:12:24.620 And it changes,

00:12:25.580 it really does,

00:12:26.160 it changes how they

00:12:27.540 approach the world.

00:12:29.140 Like they walk

00:12:29.720 with a little bit

00:12:30.120 more confidence.

00:12:31.660 No,

00:12:31.860 absolutely.

00:12:32.620 And I think,

00:12:33.220 you know,

00:12:33.460 that competency,

00:12:35.180 I mean,

00:12:35.620 I put in the word

00:12:36.860 intentionality,

00:12:38.020 another word I threw out

00:12:38.800 there just,

00:12:39.100 yeah,

00:12:39.200 is purpose.

00:12:40.420 I mean,

00:12:40.740 all of us

00:12:41.540 to be happy in life,

00:12:43.560 every human being,

00:12:44.580 whether you're a man

00:12:45.100 or a woman,

00:12:45.680 I mean,

00:12:45.840 you need to have

00:12:46.480 a sense of purpose.

00:12:47.360 And sometimes,

00:12:48.760 you know,

00:12:48.900 men,

00:12:49.140 we derive our purpose

00:12:50.000 a little bit differently.

00:12:50.920 And a lot of times,

00:12:51.460 it's just in these sort of

00:12:52.320 hard technical skills.

00:12:55.360 And so from,

00:12:56.280 sort of,

00:12:56.540 it's like how you build a fire,

00:12:57.760 you know,

00:12:58.020 with a little spark.

00:12:58.900 And sometimes that little spark

00:13:00.060 can be,

00:13:00.660 you know,

00:13:00.820 like Admiral McRaven says,

00:13:01.880 just make your bed,

00:13:03.280 you know,

00:13:03.640 or in my life,

00:13:05.220 it's like,

00:13:05.880 and this is probably a habit

00:13:06.740 from my military days,

00:13:07.780 but you know,

00:13:08.380 I work out,

00:13:09.200 like I get exercise,

00:13:10.740 you know,

00:13:11.200 six days a week,

00:13:12.120 I do a workout.

00:13:13.200 And at this point in my life,

00:13:14.780 you know,

00:13:15.020 I'm no longer doing that

00:13:15.880 because I need to be able to,

00:13:17.040 you know,

00:13:17.620 go on special operations missions.

00:13:19.880 But I do it now

00:13:20.660 just for my psychological well-being

00:13:22.200 that once I've got that workout done,

00:13:23.720 it's like I've tackled

00:13:24.400 the first hard thing of the day.

00:13:25.920 And now I can go do other hard things

00:13:27.980 during the day

00:13:28.500 and accomplish my goals.

00:13:29.900 And at the end of the day

00:13:31.020 of accomplishing goals,

00:13:32.760 some small,

00:13:33.260 some large,

00:13:34.180 you know,

00:13:34.320 I feel a sense of satisfaction.

00:13:36.160 But if you've never done that,

00:13:37.680 if you've never kind of made that

00:13:38.880 your daily practice,

00:13:40.040 it's difficult to understand abstractly

00:13:42.400 the benefits of just doing

00:13:43.680 these small things.

00:13:45.380 So,

00:13:45.920 and a man should know

00:13:46.660 in the column,

00:13:47.380 I'm just sort of identifying

00:13:48.540 like some small things

00:13:49.880 that are worth knowing how to do

00:13:52.080 that will probably make you feel

00:13:53.440 better about yourself

00:13:54.520 and help you live

00:13:55.260 a little more intentionality

00:13:56.480 and a little more purpose.

00:13:58.160 As you've navigated,

00:13:59.340 you know,

00:13:59.700 just rubbing shoulders

00:14:00.600 with different people

00:14:01.340 in your career in the Marines

00:14:02.860 and in your career

00:14:03.920 as a fiction writer.

00:14:05.080 Are you seeing something

00:14:05.820 in the wider culture

00:14:06.760 that is maybe contributing

00:14:09.020 to this sense

00:14:09.740 where a lot of younger men

00:14:11.420 in particular

00:14:11.840 don't feel like

00:14:12.980 they have competence?

00:14:14.700 Like,

00:14:15.180 have you looked at

00:14:16.060 that big social issue

00:14:17.080 and kind of diagnosed it?

00:14:19.240 Yeah,

00:14:19.460 I mean,

00:14:19.640 I can just say based on,

00:14:21.020 you know,

00:14:21.240 anecdotally,

00:14:22.100 and you know,

00:14:22.380 I'm the father of three boys

00:14:23.860 and I also have a daughter

00:14:25.420 and the way we speak

00:14:26.780 to young men

00:14:27.720 is sometimes different.

00:14:28.820 I think every young person,

00:14:31.040 no matter where they are

00:14:32.980 or who they are,

00:14:34.480 whether they're,

00:14:35.160 you know,

00:14:35.420 a boy,

00:14:36.040 a girl,

00:14:36.740 gay,

00:14:37.200 straight,

00:14:37.740 whatever,

00:14:38.620 they need to be spoken to

00:14:40.760 with intention by someone

00:14:42.700 and they need to feel like

00:14:43.660 they're seen,

00:14:44.420 like someone sees who they are

00:14:45.700 and speaks to that version

00:14:46.840 of who they are.

00:14:47.560 And I think

00:14:48.840 for whatever reason

00:14:50.260 in the last however many years

00:14:51.900 our culture

00:14:52.700 has shied away

00:14:54.500 from speaking

00:14:55.260 to just sort of

00:14:56.280 young,

00:14:56.920 straight dudes

00:14:58.260 with a lot of intentionality.

00:15:00.220 It's sort of almost become

00:15:01.400 a faux pas

00:15:02.540 to speak that way.

00:15:04.220 And the reciprocal is

00:15:05.340 you've got all these young men

00:15:06.800 who are just sort of

00:15:07.500 walking around

00:15:08.100 and no one's told them

00:15:08.900 how to do all the things

00:15:09.700 they need to know how to do.

00:15:10.580 People have just sort of

00:15:11.200 expected them to learn

00:15:12.780 through osmosis

00:15:14.020 and they don't know how.

00:15:15.720 And it's causing

00:15:16.500 a lack of confidence

00:15:17.800 and yeah,

00:15:19.580 and I would also say

00:15:20.220 kind of a lack of purpose

00:15:21.900 in their lives.

00:15:23.300 So there isn't one solution

00:15:24.940 for all of this

00:15:25.540 but I certainly think

00:15:26.380 that speaking to young men

00:15:27.300 with more intentionality

00:15:28.460 in our culture

00:15:29.100 is a good thing

00:15:29.860 and it's going to help us

00:15:30.880 produce better men

00:15:32.300 which is good for everyone

00:15:33.240 and which is certainly

00:15:33.920 very good for women.

00:15:34.900 I mean,

00:15:35.020 if you're a feminist

00:15:35.580 you should really want

00:15:36.520 men to be spoken to

00:15:37.940 with intentionality

00:15:38.760 because you want good men.

00:15:40.280 Yeah.

00:15:40.900 I mean,

00:15:41.300 I know from my experience

00:15:42.320 as a teenager

00:15:43.660 I remember there's

00:15:44.780 always those moments

00:15:45.640 where you had

00:15:47.000 another adult man

00:15:48.760 treat you

00:15:49.980 like an adult man.

00:15:51.440 Yeah.

00:15:51.660 Like you were capable

00:15:52.600 of doing adult things

00:15:54.740 and those moments

00:15:56.220 are transformative

00:15:56.880 and I think

00:15:58.580 a lot of young men

00:15:59.540 are lacking that.

00:16:00.900 I think a lot of times

00:16:01.380 they're just being scolded

00:16:02.580 and told,

00:16:03.560 hey,

00:16:03.860 something's wrong with you

00:16:04.700 but I think if we have

00:16:05.780 these higher expectations

00:16:06.700 and expect more

00:16:08.040 and talk to them

00:16:09.340 and treat them

00:16:09.980 as individuals

00:16:11.260 who are capable

00:16:11.920 of doing things

00:16:12.980 it goes a long way.

00:16:15.260 It sure does.

00:16:15.700 Listen,

00:16:16.140 one thing I got the memo on

00:16:17.940 in a big way

00:16:19.160 in my time

00:16:19.760 in the Marine Corps

00:16:20.540 is how much

00:16:22.160 you can expect

00:16:23.040 of a young person.

00:16:24.480 I mean,

00:16:24.720 I saw 18 and 19

00:16:26.040 20-year-old guys

00:16:27.480 taking on huge responsibilities

00:16:29.600 in incredibly stressful situations

00:16:32.400 and doing it

00:16:33.780 with extreme competency.

00:16:36.340 So,

00:16:37.260 you know,

00:16:37.580 the idea that young people

00:16:38.900 aren't ready

00:16:39.560 for these types

00:16:40.160 of responsibilities

00:16:40.960 or just aren't capable

00:16:42.180 because of their youth

00:16:43.380 is a fallacy.

00:16:45.000 I mean,

00:16:45.180 oftentimes the lack

00:16:46.180 of capability

00:16:46.860 is rooted

00:16:47.880 in a lack

00:16:48.460 of confidence.

00:16:49.660 So,

00:16:49.820 how do you start

00:16:50.420 building that confidence?

00:16:51.980 And I think it's just

00:16:52.600 sort of one

00:16:53.260 little brick

00:16:54.960 at a time

00:16:55.640 and each one

00:16:56.620 of those bricks

00:16:57.160 is just doing

00:16:57.880 something each day

00:16:58.840 with some type

00:16:59.880 of intention.

00:17:01.300 Going back

00:17:01.520 to the military,

00:17:02.400 I'm always amazed

00:17:03.320 whenever I read

00:17:04.020 these,

00:17:04.480 you know,

00:17:05.080 histories of World War II

00:17:06.280 about how

00:17:07.480 20-year-old kids,

00:17:08.660 they're like,

00:17:09.800 all right,

00:17:10.140 kid,

00:17:10.400 you're going to fly

00:17:10.920 this B-17

00:17:11.660 and you can do it.

00:17:14.620 And they did it.

00:17:16.000 I think H.W. Bush

00:17:17.360 was 21

00:17:18.440 when he was shot

00:17:19.740 down in the Pacific.

00:17:20.800 Yeah.

00:17:21.280 You know,

00:17:21.740 it's,

00:17:22.020 it's,

00:17:22.400 yeah,

00:17:22.660 it's,

00:17:23.180 it's crazy.

00:17:23.960 So,

00:17:24.140 for whatever reason,

00:17:25.020 and we can talk

00:17:25.580 about those reasons,

00:17:26.160 but the sort of

00:17:26.580 the goalposts

00:17:27.420 have moved

00:17:28.040 in terms of

00:17:29.300 what we expect

00:17:30.500 of young people

00:17:31.420 and holding

00:17:32.240 a young man

00:17:33.180 too long

00:17:34.120 in this sort of

00:17:34.920 childlike twilight,

00:17:37.100 it isn't good for them.

00:17:38.320 You know,

00:17:38.460 they might not be able

00:17:38.980 to articulate it,

00:17:39.540 but they want

00:17:40.160 to have that responsibility.

00:17:41.800 It will make them feel

00:17:42.860 a sense of confidence

00:17:43.720 and happiness

00:17:44.680 that might elude

00:17:45.620 them otherwise.

00:17:46.780 And I think,

00:17:47.200 I think it's one thing,

00:17:48.180 it's important to,

00:17:48.920 you know,

00:17:49.220 expect great things

00:17:50.340 from young men,

00:17:51.540 but I think what

00:17:52.000 you're talking about here

00:17:52.560 is that you also have

00:17:53.500 to show them

00:17:54.440 how to do it.

00:17:54.920 You can't just be like,

00:17:55.500 hey,

00:17:56.100 guy,

00:17:56.680 like,

00:17:56.840 what's wrong with you?

00:17:57.400 Why aren't you

00:17:57.760 doing this stuff?

00:17:59.480 Well,

00:17:59.660 you got to show them

00:18:00.260 how to do it

00:18:00.920 along the way.

00:18:02.500 Absolutely.

00:18:03.120 And,

00:18:03.500 you know,

00:18:04.000 the column I'm writing,

00:18:04.820 A Man Should Know,

00:18:05.500 I mean,

00:18:05.680 listen,

00:18:05.980 do I think

00:18:06.980 the world begins

00:18:08.440 or ends

00:18:08.920 if somebody knows

00:18:09.660 how to pick

00:18:10.060 the right suit?

00:18:10.860 No,

00:18:11.120 I don't.

00:18:11.800 You know what I mean?

00:18:12.480 Or wear the right watch

00:18:13.800 or tie a bow tie

00:18:14.840 or write a thank you note.

00:18:16.080 No,

00:18:16.260 I don't.

00:18:16.920 But these are like

00:18:18.280 little bits of kindling

00:18:19.400 that if you like

00:18:20.000 adopt a few of these

00:18:20.980 things into your life

00:18:21.920 and you're trying

00:18:22.840 to get your life

00:18:23.360 to have more intentionality,

00:18:24.540 you know,

00:18:24.660 that's how you do it.

00:18:25.680 You know,

00:18:25.940 just little bits

00:18:27.060 of confidence every day.

00:18:28.420 That's how you get

00:18:29.000 big things done.

00:18:29.920 Just gradually

00:18:31.000 through little acts

00:18:32.380 of intentionality.

00:18:34.220 Yeah,

00:18:34.300 one of my favorite writers

00:18:35.700 is Stephen Covey

00:18:37.100 and he talks about

00:18:38.320 in The Seven Habits

00:18:39.480 of Highly Effective People

00:18:40.420 this idea

00:18:41.180 of your circle

00:18:41.960 of influence

00:18:42.680 which is

00:18:43.700 the things you can control

00:18:45.160 and then

00:18:45.920 the things outside of that

00:18:47.020 you can't control.

00:18:48.640 And one of his big ideas

00:18:50.200 is that

00:18:51.060 the way you increase

00:18:52.460 your circle of influence

00:18:53.760 is you do small things.

00:18:55.680 Just like the little things

00:18:56.640 you have control over.

00:18:58.140 And then as you do that,

00:18:59.520 your sense of agency

00:19:00.780 and efficacy increases

00:19:02.500 so that you can do

00:19:03.740 bigger and bigger things

00:19:05.100 and then your circle

00:19:06.120 of influence expands.

00:19:07.720 Yes.

00:19:08.280 And, you know,

00:19:09.380 and this is not,

00:19:10.300 you know,

00:19:11.420 this is not new knowledge,

00:19:13.420 right?

00:19:13.700 I mean,

00:19:13.960 it's, you know,

00:19:14.460 the journey of a thousand miles

00:19:16.080 starts with a single step.

00:19:17.660 But just because

00:19:19.180 it's not new knowledge

00:19:20.260 doesn't mean

00:19:20.780 that there are young people

00:19:21.640 who don't understand this

00:19:22.720 or know any of these things.

00:19:24.180 And I think,

00:19:24.820 you know,

00:19:25.040 as you were talking about

00:19:26.020 the first time

00:19:26.820 someone talked to you

00:19:27.720 when you were younger,

00:19:28.840 like a man

00:19:29.540 that had a big impact on you.

00:19:31.740 And I think,

00:19:33.040 you know,

00:19:33.740 for people who are

00:19:34.480 getting left behind

00:19:35.480 or not having those opportunities,

00:19:36.860 you know,

00:19:37.140 they have to sort of

00:19:38.040 find it on their own

00:19:39.200 or look into the culture for it.

00:19:41.220 And I fear the culture

00:19:42.280 hasn't been doing a good job

00:19:43.660 on that account

00:19:44.480 for quite some time now.

00:19:46.100 But, you know,

00:19:46.740 I think,

00:19:47.140 I think for young people,

00:19:48.700 it's just the little things

00:19:50.100 each day

00:19:51.000 can get you to

00:19:51.800 a really positive result.

00:19:53.760 How did your time

00:19:54.320 in the Marines

00:19:54.880 increase your own feeling

00:19:56.200 of intentionality,

00:19:58.100 competence,

00:19:58.760 and confidence?

00:20:00.140 Yeah.

00:20:00.440 I mean, listen,

00:20:00.780 when I decided

00:20:01.480 I wanted to be a Marine,

00:20:02.620 I was like the furthest thing

00:20:04.020 you could imagine

00:20:04.760 from a Marine.

00:20:05.640 I was 17 years old.

00:20:07.560 I had never played

00:20:08.280 a varsity sport.

00:20:09.560 I was like a skater rat

00:20:11.000 who sagged his pants

00:20:12.300 and had like long curly hair

00:20:14.140 almost down to my shoulders.

00:20:15.460 And I sort of had this like,

00:20:17.260 you know,

00:20:17.780 revelation one summer

00:20:19.200 between my junior

00:20:19.940 and senior years of high school

00:20:20.800 that I wanted to go

00:20:21.640 into the service.

00:20:22.300 This is what I wanted

00:20:22.880 to do with my life.

00:20:23.960 And again,

00:20:24.580 I went to my father

00:20:25.780 and I had this,

00:20:27.120 the standards,

00:20:28.160 the physical fitness standards

00:20:29.220 that I would need to meet.

00:20:30.020 And I said,

00:20:30.440 this is what I'm going

00:20:30.860 to have to do.

00:20:31.500 And this is what,

00:20:32.200 you know,

00:20:32.340 what I think I want to do

00:20:33.360 going into the Marine Corps,

00:20:34.320 which, oh, by the way,

00:20:35.880 you know,

00:20:36.080 it takes a lot of courage

00:20:37.280 to say you want something

00:20:38.660 that you don't seem

00:20:40.660 like you're able to do, right?

00:20:41.760 Say, I want to be something.

00:20:42.860 And I think for young people,

00:20:43.560 it's tough.

00:20:44.040 You'd actually say

00:20:44.660 what you want.

00:20:45.500 But I managed to say

00:20:46.320 what I want.

00:20:47.360 And we looked at those

00:20:48.260 physical fitness standards

00:20:49.580 and he said,

00:20:50.600 okay, well,

00:20:50.860 let's see where you're at.

00:20:51.680 And I think I went down,

00:20:52.680 I went either to do like

00:20:53.440 pull-ups, push-ups,

00:20:54.620 and some sit-ups.

00:20:55.340 I could do like seven push-ups,

00:20:57.140 no pull-ups,

00:20:58.120 and maybe 15 sit-ups.

00:21:00.360 And so, you know,

00:21:01.400 I sat down with my father.

00:21:02.760 He said,

00:21:03.160 let's make a workout plan

00:21:04.340 and you need to stick to it.

00:21:06.300 And I did.

00:21:07.340 And every day,

00:21:08.700 I made sure,

00:21:10.040 without exception,

00:21:11.000 without excuses,

00:21:11.720 that I did those workouts.

00:21:13.240 And day by day by day,

00:21:14.340 I just got stronger.

00:21:15.840 And that transformation for me

00:21:17.640 that took about six to nine months

00:21:19.000 when I was a teenager

00:21:19.860 to see that just through

00:21:21.980 each of those little victories

00:21:23.660 every day,

00:21:24.380 the victory being that

00:21:25.140 I did my workout that day

00:21:26.320 and I got stronger,

00:21:28.160 I slowly understood,

00:21:29.940 oh,

00:21:30.280 this is how you accomplish

00:21:31.840 something in life.

00:21:33.260 You know,

00:21:33.440 you don't just wake up

00:21:34.340 and magically you're this thing

00:21:35.440 you want to be.

00:21:36.640 You know,

00:21:36.820 no,

00:21:37.100 it comes with every day

00:21:38.400 just chipping away,

00:21:39.940 chipping away,

00:21:40.720 grinding away at something

00:21:41.980 until you get there,

00:21:43.120 whether that is

00:21:44.060 becoming a Marine,

00:21:45.980 getting your degree,

00:21:47.400 you know,

00:21:47.580 writing books in my cases,

00:21:49.760 building a business.

00:21:50.940 It just comes with

00:21:51.980 the consistent practice

00:21:53.680 of small things

00:21:55.580 day by day by day.

00:21:57.200 You know,

00:21:57.380 this idea that

00:21:58.140 excellence is really

00:21:59.100 just a habit.

00:21:59.900 It's a series of habits

00:22:00.820 all strung together.

00:22:01.820 And in my life,

00:22:02.520 I found it to be very true.

00:22:03.680 And it starts

00:22:04.280 with the little things.

00:22:05.600 So it sounds like

00:22:06.020 your service in the Marines,

00:22:07.140 it prepared you

00:22:08.240 for your writing career

00:22:09.500 just by developing

00:22:10.280 that capacity

00:22:11.480 to be disciplined,

00:22:12.740 to be consistent.

00:22:13.800 Yeah,

00:22:13.960 my wife is a writer too

00:22:15.060 and I often joke with her

00:22:16.140 that A,

00:22:16.940 being a Marine

00:22:17.360 was a fantastic

00:22:18.360 preparation for being a writer

00:22:20.020 because so much

00:22:21.040 of being a writer

00:22:21.740 is just having the discipline

00:22:22.740 to get your work done

00:22:23.640 every day

00:22:24.220 and work on the projects

00:22:25.120 as much as you need to

00:22:25.820 to finish them.

00:22:26.660 And also because

00:22:27.240 so much of being a writer

00:22:27.960 is just suffering,

00:22:28.900 you know,

00:22:29.080 sitting at your laptop

00:22:29.780 trying to figure out

00:22:30.600 how you're going to

00:22:30.980 put something together.

00:22:32.100 But I think those skills,

00:22:34.120 I know those skills

00:22:35.100 are transferable

00:22:36.520 into all other

00:22:38.360 life pursuits,

00:22:39.760 but they have to be taught.

00:22:41.080 You know,

00:22:41.300 they have to be talked

00:22:41.980 about honestly.

00:22:43.080 It's not something,

00:22:44.040 again,

00:22:44.240 it's not something

00:22:44.860 that if you're

00:22:45.480 13,

00:22:46.240 14,

00:22:46.620 15,

00:22:47.000 16 years old,

00:22:47.980 you're just going to

00:22:48.480 know how to do.

00:22:49.180 You know,

00:22:49.620 you'll see the end state.

00:22:50.620 You'll see someone

00:22:51.040 who's very successful

00:22:51.840 maybe out in the media space

00:22:53.220 or wherever

00:22:54.020 in your community,

00:22:54.860 but you'll have no idea

00:22:55.560 how they got there

00:22:56.300 unless someone sits you down

00:22:57.980 and says,

00:22:58.380 you know,

00:22:58.540 this is how it gets done.

00:23:00.060 And in my experience,

00:23:01.500 the way it gets done

00:23:02.360 is usually just

00:23:03.140 a steady grind

00:23:04.820 of lots of discipline

00:23:05.880 and lots of little victories

00:23:07.280 every day.

00:23:08.540 What about your career

00:23:08.980 at the CIA?

00:23:09.740 Were there skills

00:23:10.860 or mindsets

00:23:12.040 or mental models

00:23:13.620 that you learned there

00:23:14.940 that you're able

00:23:15.520 to carry over

00:23:16.300 to your writing career?

00:23:17.340 I think one of the things

00:23:18.960 you certainly,

00:23:21.060 you know,

00:23:21.380 you need to know

00:23:21.940 it's showing up,

00:23:22.760 but you certainly

00:23:23.240 have to double down

00:23:24.200 on there

00:23:24.640 is empathy.

00:23:25.860 And what I mean

00:23:26.260 by empathy

00:23:26.760 is sort of

00:23:27.240 your ability

00:23:28.240 to stand

00:23:29.700 in somebody else's shoes

00:23:31.060 and try to understand

00:23:32.540 the world

00:23:33.580 according to

00:23:34.960 their experiences,

00:23:36.080 even if you don't

00:23:37.420 agree with them.

00:23:38.600 And unfortunately

00:23:39.640 in our culture today,

00:23:41.040 we seem to increasingly

00:23:42.020 have less and less space

00:23:43.540 to disagree

00:23:44.400 with one another

00:23:45.260 amicably.

00:23:46.080 You know,

00:23:46.780 it's the idea

00:23:47.240 that there are bad ideas

00:23:49.180 and there are bad people

00:23:50.480 with ideas

00:23:51.220 that usually

00:23:51.720 it's just a bad idea.

00:23:52.820 The person doesn't

00:23:53.320 have to be bad as well.

00:23:54.920 So I think having

00:23:55.720 that capacity

00:23:57.020 to, you know,

00:23:57.620 in my case at CIA,

00:23:58.640 sit down

00:23:59.340 and like try to understand

00:24:00.520 what's going through

00:24:01.280 the head

00:24:01.740 of a member of Al-Qaeda

00:24:03.220 and landing at the place,

00:24:04.680 okay, you know,

00:24:05.240 I understand

00:24:05.840 why this person

00:24:07.160 has, you know,

00:24:07.860 is engaging

00:24:08.460 in these behaviors.

00:24:09.180 I don't agree with them,

00:24:09.920 but I certainly understand

00:24:10.720 how they got there.

00:24:11.780 That has been a skill

00:24:12.720 that is definitely,

00:24:14.440 you know,

00:24:14.980 it helps me as a writer.

00:24:16.080 Because so much

00:24:16.660 of my job

00:24:17.140 is understanding

00:24:17.640 the characters

00:24:18.220 and their motivations

00:24:19.060 who I'm writing.

00:24:20.100 But I think that goes

00:24:20.840 for all walks of life.

00:24:22.000 I mean,

00:24:22.260 if you're,

00:24:23.120 certainly if you're in business,

00:24:24.140 you need to understand

00:24:24.900 your customer.

00:24:25.640 You need to understand

00:24:26.220 the people you're negotiating

00:24:27.140 against.

00:24:27.820 And empathy

00:24:28.300 is crucial.

00:24:30.100 And cultivating

00:24:30.680 a sense of empathy

00:24:31.320 is crucial

00:24:31.980 for being successful

00:24:32.940 in those spheres.

00:24:34.420 Yeah, empathy helps

00:24:35.620 you develop

00:24:36.380 social competency.

00:24:37.580 Absolutely.

00:24:38.240 Yeah.

00:24:39.400 We're going to take

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00:26:55.020 And now back to the show.

00:26:57.080 So we've been talking

00:26:57.880 about how competency,

00:26:59.420 intentionality

00:26:59.960 can help a young man

00:27:01.380 or a man's sense of self,

00:27:03.220 their sense of agency,

00:27:03.960 like they need stuff done.

00:27:05.360 There's a lot of talk

00:27:06.800 in the online ether.

00:27:08.860 And then also just talking

00:27:09.980 with friends

00:27:10.880 about the struggles

00:27:12.600 young men are having.

00:27:14.160 I guess all young people

00:27:15.240 are having this problem

00:27:15.860 in the romance department.

00:27:17.820 I have a friend

00:27:18.560 who has been putting on

00:27:20.380 some barn dances

00:27:21.820 at his place

00:27:23.060 because he's trying

00:27:23.760 to revive dance culture.

00:27:26.240 And he noticed

00:27:27.340 that there's all these,

00:27:28.880 you know,

00:27:29.280 young women at these things

00:27:30.720 and there's these young guys

00:27:32.360 and they're just sitting there

00:27:33.560 on the sides

00:27:34.840 with their hands

00:27:35.320 in their pockets

00:27:35.900 and they're not asking

00:27:37.820 these girls to dance.

00:27:38.920 And then they'll go to him

00:27:39.940 and complain about,

00:27:41.220 oh, I'm just having,

00:27:41.900 you know,

00:27:42.000 dating so rough out there.

00:27:43.240 And he's like,

00:27:43.760 you idiot.

00:27:44.780 Like there are

00:27:45.860 all these great

00:27:46.840 young women here.

00:27:47.900 You could ask to dance

00:27:48.680 but you're not doing it.

00:27:49.380 Why aren't you doing it?

00:27:50.020 He's like,

00:27:50.160 well, I don't know how.

00:27:50.920 He's like,

00:27:51.060 well, I can show you how.

00:27:52.240 What I'm getting at here,

00:27:52.920 do you think competency

00:27:53.700 can help a man's success

00:27:56.020 in his romantic

00:27:56.960 or family life?

00:27:58.480 Absolutely.

00:27:59.020 And I think just

00:27:59.640 a sense of confidence,

00:28:01.280 you know,

00:28:01.640 and the confidence

00:28:02.240 comes from the competency,

00:28:03.500 right?

00:28:04.020 I mean,

00:28:04.220 I was talking

00:28:04.920 a little bit before

00:28:05.600 about, you know,

00:28:06.780 getting in shape

00:28:07.400 to go into the Marines.

00:28:08.540 I mean,

00:28:08.760 I can't overemphasize

00:28:10.640 how much confidence

00:28:12.440 that gave me

00:28:13.240 that when I did the work,

00:28:14.680 I got the result

00:28:15.720 and that you can have faith

00:28:17.940 and if you do the work,

00:28:18.740 you get the result

00:28:19.480 just like you can have faith

00:28:20.820 in the fact that,

00:28:21.620 you know,

00:28:21.800 if you clean yourself up

00:28:23.240 a little bit,

00:28:23.660 you make an effort

00:28:24.420 and you go talk to the girl,

00:28:26.840 chance or you might get

00:28:27.360 a nice result.

00:28:27.940 You might get a date,

00:28:28.820 you know,

00:28:29.180 but you have to kind of

00:28:30.180 find the courage

00:28:31.060 to say this is what I want.

00:28:32.500 I'm going to go do it

00:28:33.180 and I'm going to put myself

00:28:33.980 out there.

00:28:34.960 And I think that comes

00:28:35.960 from competence

00:28:36.620 and it comes from confidence

00:28:37.740 as well.

00:28:39.440 Yeah,

00:28:39.580 I think women

00:28:40.620 are attracted to a guy

00:28:41.980 who can get stuff done.

00:28:43.000 Like they can take care

00:28:43.620 of business.

00:28:44.180 I remember when my wife

00:28:45.700 and I were first dating,

00:28:46.980 she had to put together

00:28:48.200 something in her apartment

00:28:49.300 and I came over

00:28:51.380 and I did it.

00:28:52.300 It wasn't that hard,

00:28:53.260 but I remember she was like,

00:28:54.700 wow,

00:28:55.040 that was really attractive.

00:28:57.340 You know,

00:28:57.460 you being handy,

00:28:58.180 that's really attractive.

00:28:59.320 And then last year

00:29:00.440 we did this article

00:29:01.100 about how you can be

00:29:02.060 a better husband today.

00:29:03.280 And so I talked

00:29:04.300 to a bunch of different women

00:29:05.120 about,

00:29:05.880 you know,

00:29:05.960 what is it about your husband

00:29:07.240 that you really appreciate

00:29:08.660 about him

00:29:09.200 and attracted you to him

00:29:11.340 and,

00:29:11.760 you know,

00:29:11.920 still you just love about him.

00:29:14.560 And a common occurrence

00:29:15.600 is just like

00:29:16.020 how he just takes care of stuff.

00:29:17.640 Like he knows

00:29:18.100 how to get stuff done.

00:29:18.980 If I have a problem,

00:29:20.400 he'll help me fix it.

00:29:21.640 And I think,

00:29:22.320 yeah,

00:29:22.520 I mean,

00:29:22.760 I think that if you're

00:29:23.580 a young man

00:29:24.240 and you want to increase

00:29:26.380 your success

00:29:27.360 in the romance world,

00:29:29.000 like learn skills.

00:29:30.400 Like it wasn't

00:29:30.780 Napoleon Dynamite

00:29:31.600 says chicks dig guys

00:29:33.120 with skills

00:29:33.520 or something like that.

00:29:34.260 Bow fighting skill,

00:29:35.400 staff skills,

00:29:36.040 he's got skills.

00:29:36.780 Yeah.

00:29:37.260 It's kind of obvious though,

00:29:38.340 right?

00:29:38.620 I mean,

00:29:39.740 it's very sort of traditional.

00:29:41.860 It's very,

00:29:42.360 to me evident that yes,

00:29:43.940 like,

00:29:44.280 you know,

00:29:44.800 if I'm at home

00:29:46.700 and like the sink breaks,

00:29:48.900 I know I'm the guy

00:29:49.740 who's fixing the sink.

00:29:51.180 Like I'm not going to come home

00:29:52.160 and have my wife fixing the sink.

00:29:53.720 I mean,

00:29:53.880 she could do it.

00:29:54.580 I'm sure she'd do a fine job,

00:29:55.620 but like she doesn't want

00:29:56.360 to fix the sink.

00:29:57.380 And that might sound,

00:29:58.620 you know,

00:29:58.860 like that's very sort of

00:30:00.200 conventional and traditional,

00:30:01.240 but these conventional

00:30:02.680 and traditional divisions

00:30:03.660 of labor

00:30:04.260 evolved that way

00:30:05.620 because

00:30:06.020 for the majority of folks,

00:30:07.500 that's sort of just

00:30:08.140 what feels natural.

00:30:09.440 Now that doesn't mean

00:30:09.940 there can't be a minority of folks

00:30:10.980 that doesn't feel natural

00:30:11.800 and they want to do things

00:30:12.700 differently and to vibrate differently.

00:30:13.640 Hey,

00:30:13.720 that's totally fine.

00:30:14.960 You know,

00:30:15.280 you do you.

00:30:16.260 But I think what gets confusing

00:30:17.580 for young men

00:30:18.140 is they just don't know

00:30:18.720 what to do

00:30:19.360 because they don't know

00:30:20.260 if they're allowed

00:30:20.900 to just do the traditional thing.

00:30:22.520 So,

00:30:23.020 so I think part of it

00:30:24.420 is just,

00:30:25.060 you know,

00:30:25.780 whether that's

00:30:26.120 in an interpersonal level

00:30:27.260 or at a societal level,

00:30:28.220 just giving them permission

00:30:29.480 to like,

00:30:30.580 yes,

00:30:30.900 if you're at the dance buddy,

00:30:32.680 you should probably

00:30:33.560 go ask her to dance.

00:30:35.060 Now,

00:30:35.460 she wants to ask you to dance,

00:30:36.240 that's fine,

00:30:36.620 but you know,

00:30:37.540 you should be the one

00:30:38.200 asking her to dance

00:30:38.980 and just someone I think

00:30:40.020 needs to tell young men

00:30:40.920 that sometimes.

00:30:41.800 I had people tell me that

00:30:42.940 and I appreciated them

00:30:43.900 telling me that

00:30:44.480 and giving me that expectation

00:30:45.860 because then I at least

00:30:46.660 knew what I was supposed to do.

00:30:48.060 Yeah.

00:30:48.700 All right.

00:30:48.980 So let's get the specific skills

00:30:49.940 you talk about

00:30:50.480 because this is fun.

00:30:51.160 I think one thing guys appreciate

00:30:52.480 is talking about skills,

00:30:54.580 you know,

00:30:55.040 and how to do things

00:30:56.200 even if they don't necessarily

00:30:57.440 have to use them

00:30:58.160 in their day-to-day life

00:30:59.120 because,

00:30:59.500 you know,

00:30:59.580 like on the Art of Manliness,

00:31:00.520 the website,

00:31:01.360 we cover lots of skills.

00:31:02.580 We've got things like

00:31:03.680 how to escape from a sinking car.

00:31:05.280 Probably not to use that

00:31:06.360 every day in your life,

00:31:07.260 but we also got stuff

00:31:08.280 that you can use

00:31:09.120 in your everyday life

00:31:09.840 like how to make small talk.

00:31:11.460 You know,

00:31:11.580 guys just like to talk about

00:31:12.420 all sorts of skills.

00:31:13.540 You mentioned that

00:31:14.060 some of the skills

00:31:14.720 you've talked about

00:31:15.580 so far in your columns,

00:31:16.900 they're small.

00:31:17.760 Like, you know,

00:31:18.120 like how to wear a suit,

00:31:19.060 how to introduce yourself

00:31:19.920 and as you said earlier,

00:31:21.720 like it's not going to make

00:31:22.600 or break you

00:31:23.420 like being a man

00:31:24.600 if you don't know

00:31:25.520 how to do these things

00:31:26.300 but they add up

00:31:27.460 and if you do those small things,

00:31:29.480 it kind of creates

00:31:30.840 this snowball effect

00:31:31.860 in your life.

00:31:32.640 As you're going through

00:31:33.760 and deciding

00:31:34.700 which skills to cover,

00:31:36.020 how are you deciding

00:31:37.300 which ones to highlight?

00:31:38.660 Yeah, I think ones

00:31:39.240 that are sort of practical

00:31:40.200 and also have

00:31:41.100 sort of a larger meaning.

00:31:43.280 So, you know,

00:31:44.700 one of the columns

00:31:45.440 which just came out

00:31:46.040 was just about watches.

00:31:47.180 You know,

00:31:47.520 why it's worth investing

00:31:48.860 in a watch

00:31:49.360 that maybe you can have

00:31:50.120 for a while

00:31:50.680 and I tell the story

00:31:52.060 of my watch

00:31:53.520 which I got

00:31:54.440 in the Marine Corps

00:31:55.060 and have worn

00:31:55.700 every day for 20 years

00:31:57.880 and how valuable

00:31:58.760 it is to me.

00:32:00.000 So, you know,

00:32:00.400 that has sort of

00:32:01.120 a larger meaning.

00:32:01.900 I think, you know,

00:32:02.320 how to introduce yourself

00:32:03.360 was the first column

00:32:04.280 that I wrote

00:32:04.860 which is, you know,

00:32:05.940 about how we carry

00:32:06.920 ourselves in the world,

00:32:08.120 how we interact

00:32:08.740 with other people,

00:32:09.560 the importance of,

00:32:11.220 you know,

00:32:11.500 even someone you don't like.

00:32:13.220 You know,

00:32:13.460 maybe if you have a chance

00:32:14.360 to meet that person,

00:32:15.520 meeting them is good

00:32:16.280 because, you know,

00:32:17.060 you might not wind up

00:32:17.660 as friends

00:32:18.220 but I think in our

00:32:19.240 kind of on-screen culture

00:32:20.420 we're so quick

00:32:20.980 to demonize each other.

00:32:22.400 So, you know,

00:32:22.720 all of just these

00:32:23.300 little skills

00:32:24.120 that often kind of

00:32:25.980 lead to larger skills

00:32:27.320 or can impact your life

00:32:28.580 in larger ways.

00:32:29.280 Well, let's talk

00:32:29.880 about the watch.

00:32:30.780 Any advice there

00:32:31.920 on selecting a watch?

00:32:34.480 Well, I mean,

00:32:35.080 there's certainly

00:32:36.280 many, many options.

00:32:37.740 I think it's less

00:32:38.700 the, you know,

00:32:39.700 the specific watch.

00:32:40.620 I think a person

00:32:41.060 should buy a watch

00:32:41.820 that kind of works

00:32:42.460 for their life.

00:32:43.420 So, you know,

00:32:44.560 I have a Rolex Explorer II

00:32:47.180 that I bought in 2006

00:32:49.460 with my combat pay

00:32:50.980 when I was deployed

00:32:52.040 with the Marines

00:32:52.980 of the Middle East

00:32:53.880 and we pulled into port

00:32:54.920 in Dubai

00:32:55.440 and I spent most

00:32:57.040 of my combat pay

00:32:57.660 on this watch.

00:32:58.380 It was a great investment.

00:32:59.280 I've had it ever since

00:33:00.040 and this watch

00:33:01.040 will go down to my son.

00:33:02.820 But I think it's more

00:33:03.920 just that, you know,

00:33:05.260 I would pick something

00:33:05.980 that you think can last

00:33:07.140 that you can take care of

00:33:08.740 and that you'd want to,

00:33:09.620 you know,

00:33:09.800 that you'd want to wear

00:33:10.740 enough that through wearing it,

00:33:12.840 you imbue it

00:33:13.360 with more value.

00:33:14.480 Did you wear that Rolex

00:33:15.480 in combat?

00:33:16.860 Yeah.

00:33:17.540 That's okay.

00:33:18.840 That's crazy

00:33:19.240 because I think like,

00:33:19.940 man, most people think like,

00:33:20.780 man, why would I wear

00:33:21.440 an $8,000 watch in combat?

00:33:24.080 Well, you'd be surprised

00:33:24.940 actually sort of

00:33:25.600 and particularly like

00:33:26.560 special operations culture

00:33:28.020 and pilot culture too.

00:33:29.280 Most guys wear nice watches

00:33:30.940 and many of these watches,

00:33:32.340 high-end watches

00:33:32.960 were originally designed

00:33:34.040 for military purposes

00:33:35.120 because, you know,

00:33:36.840 the watch I have

00:33:37.720 doesn't require battery.

00:33:39.040 It's mechanical.

00:33:40.180 It's never broken down.

00:33:41.520 And actually a lot of people

00:33:42.460 don't know this,

00:33:43.000 the face diameter

00:33:44.300 of a Rolex,

00:33:47.060 a Maglite was made

00:33:48.400 to be the exact same

00:33:49.320 face diameter of a Rolex

00:33:50.760 so that when you take

00:33:51.720 your Maglite

00:33:52.480 and you flash it

00:33:53.400 on the face of your Rolex,

00:33:54.500 it charges up

00:33:55.180 the luminous and dials

00:33:56.200 without any light escaping.

00:33:57.400 So there are lots

00:33:59.440 of little military

00:34:00.260 sort of parallels

00:34:00.980 with some of these

00:34:01.900 higher-end watch companies.

00:34:03.700 Okay.

00:34:04.200 I've thought about

00:34:05.360 buying a high-end watch.

00:34:06.840 I can never bring myself

00:34:08.300 to do it.

00:34:08.820 The most I've spent

00:34:09.640 on a watch,

00:34:10.060 I think,

00:34:10.200 is like $500.

00:34:11.460 You know,

00:34:11.860 and it's not about a watch.

00:34:12.820 It's more just about like,

00:34:13.940 you know,

00:34:15.000 is there something

00:34:15.560 you can have in your life

00:34:16.640 that you carry with you

00:34:17.840 that can be passed down?

00:34:19.380 Because I bet the person

00:34:20.260 you pass it down to

00:34:21.160 will be very,

00:34:21.780 very grateful

00:34:22.260 that they have it.

00:34:23.060 Yeah,

00:34:23.440 and it's got a story.

00:34:24.880 Yeah,

00:34:25.080 it's got a story.

00:34:25.560 Like,

00:34:25.700 my wife has two

00:34:27.160 very nice watches

00:34:28.100 that were her father's,

00:34:30.040 you know,

00:34:30.400 and they'll go down

00:34:30.980 to our kids.

00:34:31.720 And we're so glad

00:34:32.520 to have those.

00:34:33.260 So whatever it is,

00:34:34.260 it could be a watch,

00:34:34.860 it could be a ring,

00:34:35.500 it could be anything.

00:34:36.560 But, you know,

00:34:36.900 just to think

00:34:37.400 as you get older,

00:34:38.120 you know,

00:34:38.300 hey,

00:34:38.520 maybe it's worth,

00:34:39.360 you know,

00:34:40.160 investing a little something

00:34:41.240 in an object

00:34:42.040 that I could pass down.

00:34:43.740 So another skill

00:34:44.180 you talk about

00:34:44.700 is how to be a friend.

00:34:46.240 I think a lot of men

00:34:46.920 don't think of friendship

00:34:47.880 as a skill.

00:34:49.160 What makes being

00:34:50.120 a friend a skill?

00:34:51.600 Well, again,

00:34:52.040 right,

00:34:52.200 is that idea

00:34:52.760 of intentionality.

00:34:54.220 So, you know,

00:34:55.260 how do we treat our friends?

00:34:56.280 How do we invest time

00:34:57.280 with our friends?

00:34:57.920 How do we show up

00:34:58.740 for our friends

00:35:00.020 when it's inconvenient

00:35:01.100 for us,

00:35:01.680 but they might need us?

00:35:03.280 So I write in that piece

00:35:04.980 about one of my

00:35:05.780 best friends

00:35:06.720 and we met

00:35:07.840 in the Marines.

00:35:08.840 But the way

00:35:09.380 we really keep up

00:35:10.340 is we run together

00:35:11.680 probably a couple times

00:35:13.060 a month,

00:35:13.540 early in the morning,

00:35:14.780 about 5 a.m.

00:35:15.780 We'll go run

00:35:16.920 seven or eight miles.

00:35:18.000 And we've been doing

00:35:18.700 this for years.

00:35:19.540 And it's very much

00:35:20.240 like the foundation

00:35:21.040 of our friendship

00:35:21.800 or those runs.

00:35:22.900 And that kind of led

00:35:23.840 me to an observation.

00:35:24.820 Actually, my wife

00:35:25.560 made this observation

00:35:26.420 and pointed out to me

00:35:27.260 that, you know,

00:35:29.400 as men,

00:35:30.220 when we think about

00:35:31.300 how we spend time

00:35:32.440 with one another,

00:35:33.640 the activities we select

00:35:35.000 are typically not like

00:35:36.300 face-to-face activities.

00:35:37.980 They're typically activities

00:35:39.180 we can do together

00:35:40.260 shoulder-to-shoulder.

00:35:41.860 So, like,

00:35:42.260 think about it, right?

00:35:43.160 Okay, like,

00:35:43.560 I go running with my buddy.

00:35:45.140 You know, like,

00:35:45.640 what's this sort of

00:35:46.200 classic father-son activity,

00:35:48.540 right?

00:35:48.740 It's fishing.

00:35:49.420 You're shoulder-to-shoulder

00:35:50.440 when you go fishing.

00:35:51.780 Or, you know,

00:35:52.260 I have another friend

00:35:52.740 I play squash with

00:35:53.800 or shoulder-to-shoulder

00:35:54.460 when we play squash.

00:35:55.660 Or even, like,

00:35:56.380 two teenage boys

00:35:57.180 playing video games together.

00:35:58.880 There's something about

00:35:59.580 shoulder-to-shoulder

00:36:00.400 activities that feel

00:36:01.460 more natural for men

00:36:02.500 as opposed to, like,

00:36:03.180 sitting across

00:36:04.060 from one another

00:36:04.540 at lunch.

00:36:05.580 So I think it's, you know,

00:36:06.160 understanding the type

00:36:06.880 of activity

00:36:07.480 to suggest with a new friend,

00:36:10.080 you know,

00:36:10.280 what's going to feel natural

00:36:11.240 and something you can keep up.

00:36:12.860 You know,

00:36:13.320 and then also just sort of

00:36:14.300 how over the long haul,

00:36:16.280 you know,

00:36:16.460 you make sure

00:36:17.080 that you take

00:36:17.680 really good care

00:36:18.520 of those friendships

00:36:19.580 that mean the most.

00:36:20.700 And I would categorize those

00:36:21.920 as, like,

00:36:22.420 if, you know,

00:36:23.860 you had called that person,

00:36:25.300 you know,

00:36:25.560 at three in the morning

00:36:26.560 with a dead body

00:36:27.760 in your trunk,

00:36:28.340 they'd say,

00:36:28.800 all right,

00:36:29.000 let me get a shovel.

00:36:29.820 I mean,

00:36:30.000 that's the type of friend,

00:36:31.320 you know,

00:36:31.520 you want to really

00:36:32.080 take good care of

00:36:32.820 because we all need

00:36:33.300 a few of those

00:36:33.740 in our life.

00:36:34.460 Yeah,

00:36:34.760 I think the idea

00:36:35.440 of the importance

00:36:36.140 of being intentional

00:36:36.940 about maintaining friendships

00:36:38.120 is really key.

00:36:40.280 Yeah.

00:36:40.380 Guys can be bad

00:36:41.140 about that

00:36:41.760 because you're just like,

00:36:42.580 oh,

00:36:42.700 it'll just kind of happen.

00:36:43.820 It's like,

00:36:44.000 no,

00:36:44.140 it's not going to happen

00:36:47.680 on the date

00:36:47.920 or the appointment,

00:36:49.020 you're never going

00:36:49.820 to see your friend.

00:36:51.240 And I think

00:36:51.620 when you're younger,

00:36:52.560 it's tough to know

00:36:53.540 that sometimes

00:36:54.340 because these are

00:36:55.260 like new friends.

00:36:56.700 So when you're older,

00:36:58.400 I can see,

00:36:59.180 you know,

00:36:59.400 he and I having friends

00:37:00.340 for, you know,

00:37:00.780 25 years,

00:37:01.660 of course,

00:37:02.020 I'm going to show up.

00:37:03.140 But when you've got

00:37:03.660 a new friend,

00:37:04.700 you know,

00:37:05.000 it's important

00:37:05.520 to do that work

00:37:06.400 to really build

00:37:06.980 the friendship to,

00:37:07.660 hey,

00:37:07.680 I'm going to show up

00:37:08.180 for this person

00:37:08.580 even if we've only

00:37:09.240 known each other

00:37:09.660 for like six months

00:37:10.580 or a year.

00:37:11.500 Yeah,

00:37:11.600 also I think

00:37:11.980 what makes it hard

00:37:13.100 when you're older

00:37:13.820 is that you subconsciously

00:37:16.760 still think

00:37:17.640 that making friends

00:37:19.120 will work the same way

00:37:20.300 it did when you were younger.

00:37:21.660 Because when you're younger,

00:37:22.840 it just kind of happened,

00:37:23.960 right?

00:37:24.240 You're in high school

00:37:25.160 and college,

00:37:25.760 you're seeing people

00:37:26.220 all the time.

00:37:26.900 It's automatic.

00:37:27.720 It's like it's built

00:37:28.360 into the structure

00:37:28.940 of your life.

00:37:29.860 But then once you hit 30,

00:37:31.420 40,

00:37:32.120 you know,

00:37:32.300 you got a wife and kids,

00:37:33.800 that's not going to happen.

00:37:34.800 It's like the opposite

00:37:35.580 of being built into your life.

00:37:37.640 So you have to make it happen.

00:37:38.700 You have to be deliberate about it.

00:37:40.520 Yeah,

00:37:40.620 you really do.

00:37:41.360 And then,

00:37:41.660 and that goes to the idea

00:37:42.280 you kind of have to find

00:37:43.200 the activities

00:37:44.040 or the way

00:37:45.100 to keep up

00:37:46.520 that friendship.

00:37:47.360 And I think oftentimes

00:37:48.680 as men,

00:37:49.980 we're not that great about it.

00:37:51.400 And we can kind of let

00:37:52.180 these things fall

00:37:53.000 by the wayside

00:37:53.840 when they're put up

00:37:54.700 against the conflicting

00:37:56.520 obligations of work

00:37:57.820 and family.

00:37:58.960 And in the long arc

00:38:00.000 of our lives,

00:38:00.500 particularly when you get older,

00:38:01.560 you don't want to be

00:38:02.140 in a position

00:38:02.580 where you kind of

00:38:03.260 look around

00:38:04.020 and realize

00:38:04.300 you don't have

00:38:04.680 any good male friends.

00:38:05.720 Yeah.

00:38:05.820 So yeah,

00:38:06.300 I guess the key there

00:38:07.000 in making friends

00:38:07.820 is just go and do stuff

00:38:09.980 that you enjoy

00:38:10.680 because guys like

00:38:11.600 doing stuff together.

00:38:12.380 So if it's Brazilian jiu-jitsu,

00:38:13.920 I know a lot of guys

00:38:14.680 have made friends that way.

00:38:16.240 CrossFit gym.

00:38:16.820 I know a guy

00:38:17.340 who joined like

00:38:17.940 a bagpipe band

00:38:19.260 and he plays the bagpipes

00:38:21.220 with these guys regularly.

00:38:22.680 So yeah,

00:38:23.060 start doing stuff.

00:38:23.800 That's how you make friends.

00:38:24.700 Yeah,

00:38:24.920 I just do doing stuff.

00:38:25.940 Yeah.

00:38:26.480 So another skill

00:38:27.780 that you've talked about

00:38:29.380 is introducing yourself.

00:38:30.900 And that was the article

00:38:31.700 you used to introduce yourself.

00:38:33.600 How do you think

00:38:34.440 a lot of guys

00:38:35.220 fumble this?

00:38:37.120 I think oftentimes

00:38:38.500 it's not being present

00:38:41.380 in that moment.

00:38:42.100 You kind of introduce yourself

00:38:43.360 to someone.

00:38:44.040 You make some small talk

00:38:45.040 with them.

00:38:45.400 They tell you their name.

00:38:46.300 You sort of forget their name

00:38:47.500 over the course

00:38:48.000 of the small talk.

00:38:49.720 And maybe they give you

00:38:51.160 their business card

00:38:51.940 or their contacts

00:38:52.620 and you don't follow up.

00:38:53.700 You don't take good care of it.

00:38:54.700 And I think that

00:38:55.400 when introducing yourself

00:38:57.040 to someone,

00:38:57.440 it's important to make

00:38:58.040 yourself present.

00:38:58.940 Look that person in the eye

00:39:00.300 when they tell you their name.

00:39:01.620 Make an effort

00:39:02.420 to remember their name.

00:39:04.420 Listen actively

00:39:05.480 to them.

00:39:07.060 And if you kind of

00:39:08.420 put your whole self

00:39:09.600 into those conversations,

00:39:11.320 those first moments,

00:39:12.040 you'd be surprised

00:39:12.720 what you can get

00:39:13.340 out of a first meeting

00:39:14.560 that you might not get

00:39:15.720 if you're just sort of

00:39:16.340 more passive about it.

00:39:17.420 Yeah.

00:39:17.860 And again,

00:39:18.520 you think you're just

00:39:19.900 going to learn this stuff,

00:39:20.740 but you got to be

00:39:21.180 intentional about it.

00:39:22.440 Yeah.

00:39:22.700 I mean,

00:39:22.900 someone hands you

00:39:23.560 their business card,

00:39:24.540 hold on to the business card,

00:39:25.720 look down at it,

00:39:26.560 read it,

00:39:27.480 thank them,

00:39:28.340 put it in your pocket.

00:39:29.300 You know,

00:39:29.560 like again,

00:39:30.380 try to remember their name,

00:39:31.440 remember what they do.

00:39:32.880 You know,

00:39:33.060 if you're at a party

00:39:33.880 and you meet someone

00:39:34.760 at the beginning of the party,

00:39:35.480 who you like talking to

00:39:36.360 and then you mingle around

00:39:37.160 and then you leave

00:39:37.740 at the end of the party,

00:39:38.380 just go up and say,

00:39:38.740 hey,

00:39:38.840 it was great meeting you.

00:39:39.860 Well,

00:39:40.020 I'll follow up.

00:39:40.800 I mean,

00:39:41.040 just sort of basic,

00:39:42.200 again,

00:39:42.480 intentionality.

00:39:43.340 Just look at people

00:39:44.240 in the eye,

00:39:44.960 shaking their hands.

00:39:45.820 It's very basic stuff,

00:39:47.340 but,

00:39:47.600 you know,

00:39:48.700 sometimes we need

00:39:49.320 to say it out loud

00:39:50.180 to make sure

00:39:50.720 that it's actually taught.

00:39:52.220 One skill you plan

00:39:53.700 on covering in the future

00:39:54.900 is how to give a eulogy.

00:39:56.940 Have you done that before?

00:39:57.960 Have you given a eulogy?

00:39:58.900 And who was it for

00:39:59.600 if you did?

00:40:01.020 I have.

00:40:02.460 One I gave

00:40:03.400 was for a friend of mine

00:40:04.360 in the Marines

00:40:04.920 who was killed in Afghanistan.

00:40:06.420 So I gave a eulogy

00:40:07.860 at his funeral

00:40:08.700 and that was the first

00:40:10.640 proper eulogy delivered

00:40:12.020 at a funeral

00:40:12.540 I'd ever had to give.

00:40:13.860 And I was wrestling

00:40:15.160 with what to say

00:40:16.260 and my wife said to me,

00:40:18.320 she said,

00:40:18.660 well,

00:40:18.780 you know who the eulogy

00:40:19.780 is for,

00:40:20.400 don't you?

00:40:21.480 And I had to admit

00:40:22.280 that I actually didn't know

00:40:23.600 who it was for,

00:40:24.340 who was the audience

00:40:25.240 of this eulogy.

00:40:26.440 And she said,

00:40:27.020 you know,

00:40:27.140 it's for his children.

00:40:28.340 Just write this for his children.

00:40:29.660 And that really helped me,

00:40:30.860 you know,

00:40:31.280 understand,

00:40:31.700 okay,

00:40:31.860 who am I speaking to here?

00:40:33.540 And he had young children.

00:40:34.640 So I was trying to,

00:40:35.500 you know,

00:40:36.160 tell them who their dad was

00:40:37.760 when he was lost.

00:40:38.700 So,

00:40:39.440 you know,

00:40:39.680 some of these things

00:40:40.360 are things that

00:40:40.900 when you're going to need

00:40:41.600 to know it,

00:40:42.220 you,

00:40:42.500 you know,

00:40:42.740 you're going to want

00:40:43.240 to have already put

00:40:43.820 in a little bit of the work.

00:40:45.380 So,

00:40:45.740 you know,

00:40:46.000 it's important to know

00:40:46.400 how to give a toast.

00:40:47.080 It's also important to know

00:40:47.800 how to give a eulogy

00:40:48.480 because chances are

00:40:49.740 in each of our lives

00:40:50.580 we might be asked

00:40:51.200 to deliver one of these.

00:40:52.500 Yeah,

00:40:52.580 I had to give eulogy

00:40:53.200 for my grandfather

00:40:54.140 years ago

00:40:55.160 when he passed away.

00:40:56.500 And I thankfully got

00:40:58.120 that bit of advice

00:40:59.480 about knowing your audience.

00:41:00.780 Because sometimes

00:41:01.340 when I've heard eulogies,

00:41:02.560 it feels like the people

00:41:04.200 are just writing it

00:41:05.540 for themselves.

00:41:06.580 Yeah.

00:41:06.700 And I get it.

00:41:07.900 You feel a connection

00:41:08.840 to this person.

00:41:09.480 You,

00:41:09.760 you want to have

00:41:10.420 your own reminiscence,

00:41:11.420 but you have to realize,

00:41:13.220 no,

00:41:13.660 the eulogy isn't for you.

00:41:15.380 You got to think

00:41:15.880 about your audience

00:41:16.580 and that's everyone

00:41:17.240 in the room.

00:41:17.880 But in particular,

00:41:18.520 it's the deceased

00:41:19.720 inner circle.

00:41:20.400 So their spouse,

00:41:22.340 their siblings,

00:41:23.500 their best friends,

00:41:24.740 longtime colleagues,

00:41:26.000 especially their children,

00:41:27.920 they all want to hear

00:41:29.140 a remembrance

00:41:29.860 of this person they love.

00:41:32.080 And the other bit

00:41:32.660 of advice I did

00:41:34.100 that helped out a lot

00:41:35.200 was I practice a lot.

00:41:37.860 I just did it

00:41:38.380 over and over again

00:41:39.240 so I could get

00:41:40.180 the cries out

00:41:41.000 because we've probably

00:41:42.600 all seen those eulogies

00:41:43.520 where someone just gets

00:41:44.700 choked up with emotion

00:41:45.680 and they just sob

00:41:47.060 and they can't get through it,

00:41:48.480 which I understand.

00:41:49.240 I'm completely empathetic

00:41:50.120 to that.

00:41:51.300 But I wanted to be sure

00:41:52.900 that I could keep

00:41:53.860 my composure

00:41:54.460 so I could give

00:41:56.000 the eulogy

00:41:56.700 like how I wanted

00:41:58.100 to give it.

00:41:58.860 I did still get choked up

00:42:00.340 at a few parts,

00:42:01.200 but I tried

00:42:02.360 to keep it together.

00:42:03.400 I got all those

00:42:03.840 big cries out

00:42:04.620 before I actually

00:42:05.300 delivered the final eulogy.

00:42:07.640 No, I mean,

00:42:08.160 you know,

00:42:08.340 it's one of the most

00:42:09.700 important and impactful

00:42:10.780 types of public remarks

00:42:12.740 anyone can be asked

00:42:14.140 to offer.

00:42:14.740 So you want to make sure

00:42:15.480 you get it right.

00:42:16.580 So a lot of the skills

00:42:17.580 you've talked about so far,

00:42:18.420 you can kind of classify

00:42:19.200 them as soft skills.

00:42:20.240 It's like style,

00:42:21.060 how to dress,

00:42:21.680 how to socialize.

00:42:23.080 Are there any brass tacks

00:42:25.140 concrete skills

00:42:26.340 you think a guy should know

00:42:27.300 or that you plan on covering?

00:42:29.200 I plan on,

00:42:29.980 I mean,

00:42:30.580 some of these are,

00:42:31.520 I don't know what we put

00:42:32.600 in the category

00:42:33.140 of kind of like brass tacks

00:42:34.380 or not brass tacks,

00:42:35.520 but I mean,

00:42:37.320 I'm going to cover

00:42:38.140 like how to travel,

00:42:39.080 I think is an important one,

00:42:40.580 how to pick a book.

00:42:41.840 You know,

00:42:42.040 I don't know

00:42:42.360 if I'll necessarily get into,

00:42:43.200 you know,

00:42:43.360 how to follow your taxes,

00:42:44.400 but you know,

00:42:46.120 I think each of these

00:42:47.060 little skills,

00:42:48.140 they become cumulative

00:42:49.380 and if you're taking

00:42:51.600 all the little things

00:42:52.360 in your life

00:42:52.980 and executing them

00:42:54.320 with a lot of intention,

00:42:55.160 those will bleed

00:42:56.360 into the larger parts

00:42:57.320 of your life

00:42:57.800 and you'll be executing

00:42:58.420 those with intention too.

00:42:59.640 Here's a question.

00:43:00.820 Do you think improvisation

00:43:02.400 is a skill a man should develop?

00:43:04.280 And if so,

00:43:04.680 how do you develop it?

00:43:06.660 Improvisation

00:43:07.060 in life.

00:43:08.440 In life,

00:43:08.800 yeah,

00:43:08.920 just sort of general improvisation.

00:43:11.100 Well,

00:43:11.120 I think the ability

00:43:12.200 to pivot in your life

00:43:13.900 is very important.

00:43:15.340 So,

00:43:15.940 you know,

00:43:16.320 if you're working at a job

00:43:17.740 and you thought

00:43:18.140 it was going to be great

00:43:18.900 and suddenly it really isn't great

00:43:20.260 and you have to acknowledge

00:43:21.440 that things are not working out,

00:43:22.900 the ability to reinvent oneself,

00:43:25.220 to improvise

00:43:26.220 and move in a different direction

00:43:27.320 is hugely important.

00:43:28.700 And that's like

00:43:29.220 what I would say

00:43:29.660 is like a big skill.

00:43:31.240 So,

00:43:32.060 someone who's good

00:43:32.800 at improvisation

00:43:33.560 is probably good

00:43:34.520 at many,

00:43:34.920 many other things

00:43:35.420 that allow them

00:43:35.940 to be good

00:43:36.360 at improvisation.

00:43:37.220 They probably have

00:43:37.620 great imagination.

00:43:38.940 They probably are

00:43:39.560 a good strategic thinker.

00:43:41.160 So,

00:43:41.680 those are all big things

00:43:42.840 that we cultivate

00:43:43.460 in small ways.

00:43:44.580 You know,

00:43:44.720 how do you become

00:43:45.680 someone who's got

00:43:46.800 a great imagination

00:43:47.620 and is a good strategic thinker?

00:43:49.360 Well,

00:43:49.440 you're probably somebody

00:43:49.920 who reads.

00:43:50.640 So,

00:43:50.860 you might want to figure out

00:43:51.580 how to,

00:43:51.880 you know,

00:43:52.060 incorporate reading

00:43:52.720 into your day every day.

00:43:54.060 So,

00:43:54.540 again,

00:43:54.940 you know,

00:43:55.240 the big things

00:43:55.740 come from the little things,

00:43:56.700 at least in my opinion.

00:43:57.340 Yeah.

00:43:57.900 I mean,

00:43:58.320 I'm sure you learned

00:43:58.920 improvisation in the Marines.

00:44:01.020 It's like stuff

00:44:01.460 never went to plan.

00:44:02.980 Never.

00:44:03.540 And the way you learn

00:44:04.420 improvisation

00:44:05.100 is just sort of,

00:44:05.760 you know,

00:44:06.100 repetition.

00:44:07.640 You've run the plays

00:44:08.420 enough times

00:44:09.040 that you can improvise

00:44:09.820 off of them.

00:44:10.960 So,

00:44:11.220 the moment you actually

00:44:11.940 need to improvise

00:44:12.820 is usually,

00:44:13.860 you know,

00:44:14.120 you never know

00:44:14.900 when that moment's

00:44:15.420 going to occur

00:44:15.860 but you have to be prepared

00:44:16.840 and that preparation

00:44:17.560 just comes from

00:44:18.240 doing the little things

00:44:19.080 right every day.

00:44:20.020 Or in the Marine Corps

00:44:20.760 we would call it

00:44:21.280 brilliance in the basics.

00:44:22.440 Brilliance in the basics

00:44:23.180 is what would allow you

00:44:24.240 in a very complex situation

00:44:26.200 to improvise,

00:44:27.880 adapt,

00:44:28.280 and overcome

00:44:28.840 as we also say

00:44:29.680 in the Marines.

00:44:30.100 Yeah,

00:44:30.240 it's like jazz musicians.

00:44:31.420 They're just constantly

00:44:32.140 doing that woodshedding

00:44:33.360 where they're just

00:44:33.760 doing their scales

00:44:34.580 over and over again

00:44:35.600 so that

00:44:36.700 they can

00:44:37.820 improvise

00:44:38.660 when they need to.

00:44:39.760 Yeah.

00:44:40.080 Yeah.

00:44:40.600 Absolutely.

00:44:41.200 And there's

00:44:41.760 this idea of improvisation

00:44:43.120 sort of a manly trait.

00:44:45.180 There's this great book

00:44:46.380 written,

00:44:47.460 it's like 30,

00:44:48.240 40 years ago

00:44:48.860 called

00:44:49.480 The Poetics of Manhood

00:44:50.480 where this anthropologist

00:44:51.900 goes to this village

00:44:53.260 in Crete

00:44:53.840 and he looks at

00:44:55.340 their culture

00:44:55.760 of manhood there

00:44:56.580 and in this culture

00:44:57.780 they were shepherds.

00:44:59.900 Improvisation

00:45:00.380 was highly valued.

00:45:02.240 Like,

00:45:02.440 you weren't a man

00:45:03.140 if you didn't know

00:45:03.740 how to improvise

00:45:04.340 and the way they improvised

00:45:05.120 it was like

00:45:06.240 it could be things

00:45:06.840 like telling a story

00:45:07.700 or telling a joke

00:45:09.380 that was sort of

00:45:10.100 different than

00:45:10.580 what you'd expect

00:45:11.440 dancing in like

00:45:12.740 a deft way

00:45:13.640 doing a raid

00:45:15.520 on another village

00:45:16.780 for their sheaf

00:45:17.460 with some style.

00:45:18.900 Like,

00:45:19.440 that's,

00:45:19.780 they really wanted

00:45:20.460 to see a guy

00:45:21.520 who could do that

00:45:23.480 and I think,

00:45:24.120 I mean,

00:45:24.360 in my own life

00:45:25.160 and here in,

00:45:25.640 you know,

00:45:25.820 the United States

00:45:26.480 in the 21st century

00:45:27.480 I always respect a guy

00:45:28.900 who can add a bit

00:45:30.700 of style

00:45:31.220 to the things

00:45:31.800 that they do

00:45:32.420 like you don't expect it

00:45:33.800 or whenever something

00:45:34.720 doesn't go according

00:45:35.920 to plan

00:45:36.420 like it just rolls off

00:45:37.800 them like water

00:45:39.000 on a duck

00:45:39.540 and they just do

00:45:41.020 something else.

00:45:42.580 Absolutely.

00:45:43.160 I mean,

00:45:43.320 in the military

00:45:43.860 we call that,

00:45:44.500 you know,

00:45:44.960 Elon.

00:45:45.520 Yes.

00:45:46.020 Like the units

00:45:46.780 that sort of have

00:45:47.440 that dash to them

00:45:48.560 and I think that's

00:45:49.600 fantastic

00:45:50.280 and critically important.

00:45:52.360 You know,

00:45:52.480 I think it's also important

00:45:53.520 to do something

00:45:54.920 every day

00:45:55.400 that scares you

00:45:56.140 a little bit.

00:45:57.100 If you want

00:45:58.000 practice

00:45:59.080 at improvisation

00:46:00.260 or being able

00:46:01.520 to tackle something

00:46:02.480 that's a crisis

00:46:03.200 that's really terrifying

00:46:04.460 like you need

00:46:05.300 to be practiced

00:46:05.940 at overcoming fear

00:46:07.580 little bits every day.

00:46:09.240 So,

00:46:09.620 I mean,

00:46:10.460 you know,

00:46:11.800 it doesn't have

00:46:12.200 to be something

00:46:12.580 that terrifies you

00:46:13.620 like you don't have

00:46:13.920 to go swim

00:46:14.380 with great white sharks

00:46:15.220 every day

00:46:15.740 but,

00:46:16.340 you know,

00:46:16.800 just scares you

00:46:17.460 a little bit

00:46:17.780 like,

00:46:18.120 you know,

00:46:18.320 I don't know.

00:46:19.100 I woke up this morning

00:46:19.920 and went on a long run

00:46:20.860 and it was freezing out.

00:46:21.820 I really didn't feel

00:46:22.360 like going on my run

00:46:23.000 this morning

00:46:23.440 but like I did it.

00:46:24.260 You know,

00:46:24.400 it scared me a little bit

00:46:25.540 and so much

00:46:25.940 it's like I'm like,

00:46:26.480 oh,

00:46:26.660 this is going to be cold

00:46:27.480 and the first,

00:46:28.380 you know,

00:46:28.580 50 minutes are going to hurt

00:46:29.720 and then you do it

00:46:30.540 and you feel great.

00:46:31.500 I think the repetition,

00:46:33.020 you know,

00:46:33.160 doing things that are hard,

00:46:34.240 doing things that feel frightening

00:46:35.380 that take you a little bit

00:46:36.480 out of your comfort zone,

00:46:37.820 that is just,

00:46:39.040 it's just critically important

00:46:40.440 to building a fulfilling life

00:46:42.520 where you feel like

00:46:43.240 you're able to point yourself

00:46:44.420 towards a goal

00:46:45.200 and have the joy

00:46:46.000 of seeing yourself progress

00:46:47.260 and then eventually achieve a goal.

00:46:49.340 And if you aren't doing those things,

00:46:51.500 you know,

00:46:51.820 chances are you're,

00:46:53.080 you know,

00:46:53.300 you're probably not feeling

00:46:55.040 a lot of fulfillment

00:46:55.700 in your life

00:46:56.140 and you're probably not feeling

00:46:56.820 the type of happiness

00:46:57.580 you deserve to feel.

00:46:59.200 So it sounds like

00:46:59.660 you're encouraging men

00:47:00.340 to be intentional

00:47:00.960 about this skill development.

00:47:02.140 Don't just wait for,

00:47:03.200 it's not just going to happen.

00:47:04.100 You have to go out there

00:47:04.680 and make it happen for yourself.

00:47:06.140 You got to deliberately

00:47:06.940 go about learning

00:47:07.960 and practicing new skills.

00:47:09.360 Absolutely.

00:47:10.060 Yeah.

00:47:10.340 You can't just sit on your couch

00:47:12.080 and think that the job

00:47:13.320 or the girl

00:47:13.840 or the,

00:47:14.400 you know,

00:47:15.000 anything is going to show up.

00:47:16.320 It's not.

00:47:16.700 You have to go out there

00:47:17.460 and you have to do it for yourself

00:47:18.720 and you have to be patient

00:47:20.760 because it's not going to happen

00:47:21.700 in one foul swoop.

00:47:23.100 That's going to take

00:47:23.540 a lot,

00:47:23.820 a lot of time,

00:47:24.640 a lot of diligence,

00:47:25.340 but there's joy

00:47:27.320 in the daily accomplishment

00:47:29.640 of the small tasks

00:47:31.380 that you know

00:47:32.300 are taking you

00:47:33.200 towards a goal

00:47:34.140 that you believe in

00:47:35.020 and that excites you.

00:47:36.380 I mean,

00:47:36.720 there's joy in that.

00:47:37.840 I think in some ways

00:47:38.460 it's like the only real joy

00:47:39.500 there is in life.

00:47:40.780 So get after it,

00:47:42.100 you know,

00:47:42.300 get after it

00:47:42.760 with just the small things.

00:47:43.960 That reminds me of a quote.

00:47:44.840 I've said it multiple times

00:47:45.800 on this podcast,

00:47:46.420 but I think it's really,

00:47:47.080 I like it a lot.

00:47:47.940 That reminds me

00:47:48.500 of what you just said.

00:47:49.380 Nietzsche said,

00:47:51.460 joy is the feeling

00:47:52.260 of power increasing.

00:47:53.440 And by power,

00:47:55.120 he doesn't mean

00:47:55.500 like authoritative power.

00:47:57.260 He means the power

00:47:58.300 to do things in your life.

00:47:59.880 And I think it goes

00:48:00.320 to what you were saying.

00:48:00.940 Like it just feels awesome

00:48:01.880 when you level up

00:48:03.500 what you're capable of

00:48:04.440 when you increase your agency.

00:48:06.020 It does.

00:48:06.300 It feels great.

00:48:07.040 You know,

00:48:07.480 it's also this idea

00:48:09.080 that joy is having

00:48:09.820 something to look forward to.

00:48:11.500 And it's that idea

00:48:12.440 of increasing power.

00:48:13.740 What you're looking forward

00:48:14.580 to is the actualization

00:48:15.920 of this goal of yours.

00:48:17.360 You know,

00:48:17.780 people sometimes ask me

00:48:18.800 like what it's like,

00:48:19.640 you know,

00:48:20.340 finishing and publishing a book.

00:48:21.780 And I'm surprised

00:48:22.620 when I actually get

00:48:23.260 a little bit depressed.

00:48:24.140 I feel sad.

00:48:25.340 Obviously,

00:48:25.620 I'm happy that,

00:48:26.400 you know,

00:48:26.560 that I'm done

00:48:26.920 with this piece of work

00:48:27.820 and the book is out

00:48:28.540 in the world

00:48:29.060 and people are engaging with it.

00:48:30.660 But I feel a sort of

00:48:31.520 sense of emptiness

00:48:32.160 because I no longer

00:48:32.940 have that thing

00:48:33.560 on the horizon

00:48:34.120 I've been looking forward

00:48:35.000 to and working toward.

00:48:36.380 And I have to start

00:48:37.120 all over again.

00:48:38.300 And then,

00:48:39.300 you know,

00:48:39.760 I start over again.

00:48:41.060 And yeah,

00:48:41.460 like the quote

00:48:42.200 you had from Nietzsche,

00:48:42.780 I feel my power growing,

00:48:44.320 the joy growing.

00:48:45.100 I'm like,

00:48:45.360 okay,

00:48:45.640 now I'm working again

00:48:46.400 towards a goal.

00:48:47.040 I believe that.

00:48:48.040 So the thing about skills

00:48:48.820 is they often degrade

00:48:50.240 if you don't use them.

00:48:51.180 How do you keep

00:48:51.620 your own skill set sharp?

00:48:53.540 Well,

00:48:53.700 you know,

00:48:53.880 I've built my life

00:48:54.920 and I know sort of

00:48:55.720 the things that I do

00:48:56.400 in my life.

00:48:56.960 I'm a writer.

00:48:57.800 You know,

00:48:58.120 I know the things

00:48:58.680 where I invest my time

00:49:00.200 and trying to be better

00:49:01.140 at my craft.

00:49:02.380 And so I spend the time

00:49:03.720 every day doing that work.

00:49:05.340 And my work life,

00:49:06.340 it's writing,

00:49:07.320 reading,

00:49:07.760 dedicating myself

00:49:08.440 to the projects

00:49:09.060 that I'm working on.

00:49:11.040 You know,

00:49:11.300 in my personal life,

00:49:12.280 it's investing

00:49:12.960 in my family relationships

00:49:14.360 and relationships

00:49:14.900 with friends.

00:49:15.720 I mean,

00:49:15.880 those are what I would

00:49:16.480 kind of qualify

00:49:17.020 as my skills.

00:49:17.860 But those are,

00:49:18.920 you know,

00:49:19.060 different for anyone.

00:49:19.960 But I think it's just

00:49:20.640 the daily practice

00:49:21.920 of your profession

00:49:23.240 and your personal life

00:49:24.820 and making sure

00:49:25.800 that you show up

00:49:26.800 as much as you can

00:49:27.800 with your full self

00:49:28.720 each day

00:49:29.360 to do that work

00:49:30.220 to keep those skills honed.

00:49:32.360 And through having

00:49:32.880 those skills honed,

00:49:33.940 you'll derive

00:49:34.400 a lot of happiness.

00:49:35.620 Yeah.

00:49:35.860 So you mentioned

00:49:36.640 that you're a father.

00:49:37.380 You got some kids.

00:49:38.980 He was three boys

00:49:39.600 and a girl.

00:49:40.840 Yes.

00:49:41.680 What can fathers do

00:49:42.860 to raise competent children?

00:49:44.380 What are you doing

00:49:44.980 in your own life

00:49:45.640 with your kids?

00:49:46.200 Speak to them

00:49:47.500 with intention.

00:49:48.640 You know,

00:49:48.820 sit down,

00:49:49.480 try to understand them.

00:49:51.160 Teach them things.

00:49:52.500 Just teach them

00:49:53.300 little things

00:49:54.000 and let them feel

00:49:55.300 their power increasing

00:49:56.380 through learning

00:49:57.000 those little things.

00:49:58.900 And then just pay attention.

00:50:00.260 You know,

00:50:00.460 pay attention

00:50:00.880 to how they're growing

00:50:01.760 and talk to them.

00:50:03.140 Try to help them

00:50:03.740 understand what they want.

00:50:05.380 And then like my father

00:50:06.300 did for me,

00:50:07.060 you know,

00:50:07.300 when they tell you

00:50:07.840 what they want

00:50:08.520 and say who they are to you,

00:50:10.040 help them find the pathway

00:50:11.380 to become that version

00:50:12.300 of themselves

00:50:12.720 that they crave to be.

00:50:14.160 That's what my dad

00:50:14.820 did with me

00:50:15.280 when I couldn't do

00:50:16.000 any push-ups or pull-ups

00:50:16.980 and he made me

00:50:17.380 a workout plan

00:50:18.220 and said,

00:50:18.760 here's the pathway.

00:50:19.680 Go walk it.

00:50:20.500 Yeah,

00:50:20.680 so you just got to be

00:50:21.180 intentional about it.

00:50:21.760 It's not just going to happen.

00:50:22.760 No,

00:50:23.140 it's not just going to happen.

00:50:23.640 Yeah.

00:50:24.100 We've done that

00:50:24.660 with our kids.

00:50:25.580 When they turn 12,

00:50:26.760 they do this year-long challenge

00:50:28.160 called the 12-year-old challenge.

00:50:30.000 And each week,

00:50:31.180 they've got a different challenge.

00:50:32.640 It's going to push them

00:50:33.340 physically,

00:50:34.780 mentally.

00:50:35.700 They're going to learn

00:50:36.060 a new skill.

00:50:36.660 So like one week,

00:50:37.380 they might be reading

00:50:38.140 a specific book.

00:50:39.240 We have them read

00:50:40.140 Man's Search for Meaning.

00:50:41.600 Yeah.

00:50:41.920 Or they might have

00:50:43.020 to cook dinner

00:50:43.560 for the family.

00:50:44.520 Or they might have

00:50:45.040 to make a campfire,

00:50:46.320 memorize a passage,

00:50:47.560 tie knots,

00:50:48.000 stuff like that.

00:50:49.060 My daughter's doing it right now.

00:50:50.380 My son did it

00:50:51.040 a couple of years ago.

00:50:52.440 And it's been cool

00:50:53.380 because you can see them

00:50:54.880 experiencing that joy

00:50:56.500 as they figure out

00:50:57.960 how to do something.

00:50:58.940 It's like,

00:50:59.240 oh, wow,

00:50:59.620 I can actually do

00:51:00.640 this adult thing

00:51:01.860 that I didn't think

00:51:02.640 I could do.

00:51:03.580 Yeah,

00:51:03.920 that's the power increasing.

00:51:05.760 But,

00:51:06.520 you know,

00:51:07.000 your kids are lucky

00:51:07.760 and I think there are

00:51:08.720 too many young people

00:51:09.620 and certainly too many,

00:51:10.460 you know,

00:51:10.920 young men

00:51:11.420 who might not be

00:51:12.520 getting that degree

00:51:13.740 of intentionality

00:51:14.660 and they might have

00:51:15.640 to go seek it out

00:51:16.400 themselves.

00:51:17.120 But you can find it yourself.

00:51:19.080 You know,

00:51:19.260 it's just about taking

00:51:19.900 those first steps

00:51:20.900 and sticking with them.

00:51:22.540 Yeah,

00:51:22.660 and that's another thing too.

00:51:23.600 If you don't have kids

00:51:24.240 or even you do have kids,

00:51:25.300 get out there and volunteer.

00:51:26.300 There's lots of opportunities

00:51:26.960 for grown men

00:51:27.760 to volunteer

00:51:28.760 to work with young people,

00:51:30.040 whether it's being a coach

00:51:31.140 or a scout leader

00:51:32.120 or whatever.

00:51:34.200 It gives them

00:51:34.720 another touch point

00:51:35.580 with an adult man.

00:51:37.500 They can experience

00:51:38.220 that feeling that I had.

00:51:39.200 They're like,

00:51:39.380 wow,

00:51:39.500 here's this adult

00:51:40.200 treating me like an adult

00:51:41.800 and showing me

00:51:42.940 how I can become

00:51:43.960 intentional and competent.

00:51:45.680 Yeah,

00:51:45.940 it's huge.

00:51:46.660 Yeah.

00:51:47.180 Well,

00:51:47.420 Elliot,

00:51:47.660 this has been a great conversation.

00:51:48.940 Where can people go

00:51:49.460 to learn more about your work?

00:51:50.900 You know,

00:51:51.260 I'm on social media.

00:51:52.360 You can find me

00:51:52.940 Elliot.Ackerman

00:51:54.060 on Instagram

00:51:54.900 and Twitter

00:51:56.240 and my books

00:51:57.580 are sold

00:51:58.160 wherever fine books are sold.

00:51:59.420 So I'm pretty easy to find.

00:52:00.900 Fantastic.

00:52:01.240 Well,

00:52:01.340 Elliot Ackerman,

00:52:01.860 thanks for your time.

00:52:02.180 It's been a pleasure.

00:52:03.160 Yeah,

00:52:03.340 thanks for having me,

00:52:03.940 Brett.

00:52:05.220 My guest name

00:52:05.680 is Elliot Ackerman.

00:52:06.480 He's a novelist

00:52:07.200 and the author

00:52:07.600 of the new column

00:52:08.200 at the Free Press

00:52:08.900 called A Man Should Know.

00:52:10.340 If you want to read

00:52:10.940 Elliot's columns,

00:52:11.660 you can subscribe

00:52:12.180 to the Free Press

00:52:12.840 at thefp.com

00:52:14.580 slash manliness

00:52:15.320 and save 10% off

00:52:16.360 your first year.

00:52:17.360 Also,

00:52:17.720 check out our show notes

00:52:18.220 at aom.is

00:52:19.080 slash competence

00:52:19.840 where you find links

00:52:20.420 to resources

00:52:21.040 where you delve deeper

00:52:21.640 into this topic.

00:52:22.240 Well,

00:52:30.180 that wraps up

00:52:30.780 another edition

00:52:31.440 of the AOM Podcast.

00:52:32.560 Make sure to check out

00:52:33.140 our website

00:52:33.480 at artofmanliness.com

00:52:34.600 where you find

00:52:34.860 our podcast archives

00:52:35.820 and make sure to check out

00:52:36.880 our new newsletter.

00:52:37.740 It's called Dying Breed.

00:52:39.160 If you sign up

00:52:39.600 at dyingbreed.net,

00:52:40.740 it's a great way

00:52:41.380 to support the show directly.

00:52:42.980 As always,

00:52:43.740 thank you for the continued support

00:52:44.640 and tell the next time

00:52:45.140 it's Brett McKay.

00:52:46.040 Remind you how

00:52:46.440 to listen to AOM Podcast

00:52:47.180 but put what you've heard

00:52:48.520 into action.

00:52:49.120 Before you go,

00:53:17.460 here's another one

00:53:18.200 to queue up next.

00:53:19.260 I talked to Ben Aldridge

00:53:20.200 about his book

00:53:20.820 Seriously Happy

00:53:21.580 where he takes the big ideas

00:53:22.840 from ancient philosophies

00:53:23.720 like Buddhism,

00:53:24.940 cynicism,

00:53:25.620 stoicism

00:53:26.140 and turns them

00:53:27.260 into real doable challenges

00:53:29.040 for becoming

00:53:29.560 a better,

00:53:30.400 happier person.

00:53:31.740 We get into everything

00:53:32.460 from cultivating virtue

00:53:33.380 to walking a banana

00:53:34.460 and taking a wu-wei adventure.

00:53:36.460 It's fun,

00:53:37.440 practical

00:53:37.840 and surprisingly deep.

00:53:39.500 You can check it out

00:53:40.180 at aom.is

00:53:41.500 slash seriously happy.

00:53:43.360 Again,

00:53:43.620 that's aom.is

00:53:44.920 slash seriously happy.

The Art of Manliness - December 02, 2025

Masculinity as Confident Competence

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