The Art of Manliness - Master Microtransitions to Improve the Happiness, Success, and Flow of Your Life

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.480 Throughout each day, all of us make little shifts in our roles and responsibilities.

00:00:15.420 We take off one hat and put on another.

00:00:17.960 Sometimes these shifts are physical, as when we commute from home to the office.

00:00:22.100 Other times these shifts are mental, as when we finish working on an administrative task,

00:00:26.460 start working on a creative one.

00:00:27.940 My guest calls these little shifts microtransitions and says that mastering them is a significant key

00:00:33.560 in living a happy, fulfilled, and successful life.

00:00:36.660 His name is Dr. Adam Frazier, and he's a peak performance researcher and the author of The Third Space.

00:00:41.660 As Adam explains, in each microtransition, there are three spaces.

00:00:45.540 The first space, which is the task, role, or place you're leaving behind.

00:00:49.640 The second space, which is the task, role, or place you're transitioning to.

00:00:53.680 And the third space, which is the in-between transition itself.

00:00:56.740 To make an ideal microtransition, you break that third space into three phases.

00:01:01.780 And Adam walks us through how to execute each one so you can show up as your best self in the second space.

00:01:06.640 We talk about how to make microtransitions between different work roles.

00:01:10.000 It's been a lot of our conversation on how to improve the microtransition between work and home,

00:01:14.260 even if you work from home, so you can arrive ready to engage with your family.

00:01:18.180 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash third space.

00:01:21.460 All right, Dr. Adam Frazier, welcome to the show.

00:01:41.600 Hey, Brett, good to be here.

00:01:43.500 I'm coming in from a very sunny Sydney right now.

00:01:47.040 Sunny but cold.

00:01:48.260 Oh, yeah, it's winter down there.

00:01:49.460 Yeah, and we've had quite the winter.

00:01:52.920 It's been very cold for us.

00:01:55.060 Well, it's really hot here in Oklahoma where I'm at.

00:01:57.840 I can imagine.

00:01:59.220 So you are a researcher who researches peak performance.

00:02:03.080 And you've got a couple books out.

00:02:04.460 And you got one out that I really enjoyed and found really, really useful.

00:02:08.500 It's called The Third Space, Using Life's Little Transitions to Find Balance and Happiness.

00:02:13.900 I want to start off with this question.

00:02:15.660 When most people talk about finding balance, I think everyone's trying to find balance between

00:02:20.040 their personal and work lives.

00:02:22.320 What's the typical approach that you found that people take when they're trying to find

00:02:25.900 that balance?

00:02:27.720 Yeah, I think the problem from our research, the problem is everyone looks at time as the

00:02:32.540 metric for balance.

00:02:33.760 And what was interesting is I came into balance as a performance researcher.

00:02:40.300 So it was a new area for me.

00:02:42.100 But one of the problems I noticed in the research is it all focuses on the individual, like what's

00:02:46.780 balance for you?

00:02:47.440 How would you get balance?

00:02:48.360 You know, we're going to do something different where we started to interview families about

00:02:54.840 balance.

00:02:55.900 So we sat people down and said, right, if your mom, dad, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband,

00:02:59.780 wife, partner, whoever that person you lived with was, if they found balance, what would 0.92

00:03:05.180 be different?

00:03:06.100 And what families said, they said, you know, we get the emails, we get the phone calls,

00:03:11.380 we get that that's part of your job now.

00:03:13.440 But what most families said is what we don't get is you come through that door and you're

00:03:18.060 a jerk. 0.95

00:03:18.920 Like you come through that door and you take your day out on us, or you come through that

00:03:23.200 door and see us as an inconvenience that gets in the way of work.

00:03:26.860 So what family said, balance isn't when you show up, it's how you show up.

00:03:32.500 And what they talked about is balance is about connection.

00:03:35.520 And I think that's the biggest mistake we make.

00:03:37.940 We think, when am I showing up?

00:03:39.660 Not how am I showing up?

00:03:41.700 So that was probably the big learning for me.

00:03:44.100 Okay.

00:03:44.260 So yeah, when we think about balance, we think about this scale and we're putting time on

00:03:48.880 the scale.

00:03:49.900 And one of the big reasons people want balance is to improve relationships in their life.

00:03:55.080 But what you're saying, what people say they want from their loved ones, isn't so much

00:04:00.080 that time balance, but what they want instead, they want their loved ones to be engaged and

00:04:06.060 present when they're with them.

00:04:07.960 Yeah.

00:04:08.140 And if you look at, you know, we're focusing on men here, what kids want is come home,

00:04:13.320 be playful, be stupid, be, you know, like build a fort with me, you know, or do some

00:04:21.180 sort of activity with me.

00:04:23.020 And, you know, like for years, I thought I had bad balance because I travel a lot, you

00:04:27.260 know, I fly a lot and I'm all over the place.

00:04:30.020 Whereas some of my mates who I grew up with have jobs where they're home every night.

00:04:35.240 But, you know, when I compared myself to them, they're often just watching TV or cruising

00:04:41.080 around or doing work when I'm at home.

00:04:43.600 And this has taken a lot of work, but I'd say I'm a real rock star, meaning I'm the fun

00:04:48.000 dad.

00:04:48.300 I'm really engaged.

00:04:49.660 I'm super present.

00:04:50.720 So even though I'm not there as much as some of my mates are, man, my interactions are seriously

00:04:57.140 quality.

00:04:58.480 Okay.

00:04:58.560 So in the third space, you make the case that instead of thinking about finding balance in

00:05:02.440 our lives with time on a balancing beam, we should instead think of our daily lives as

00:05:07.960 a series of micro transitions.

00:05:10.380 Yeah.

00:05:10.580 So what is a micro transition?

00:05:12.700 Well, micro transitions are those little transitions we make where we move from one thing to another.

00:05:18.600 So, you know, before doing this podcast, I had a coaching call with a CEO.

00:05:23.940 So I'm working with a leadership team and I'm talking to the CEO about adopting better behavior.

00:05:29.160 So I've had an interaction where I've had to go and tell a guy who's super senior that he's

00:05:36.300 falling down in these three areas.

00:05:38.320 So I've had to be super empathetic, really careful with my words.

00:05:42.740 Now I'm talking to you and, you know, having this great fun interaction.

00:05:46.560 And then after this, I've got to have a hard conversation with a staff member.

00:05:51.060 So our day is basically we move between different spaces and the micro transitions are those little

00:05:57.760 transitional gaps of how do we prepare ourselves for the next thing?

00:06:02.300 So how do I come down after this podcast?

00:06:04.660 Cause I find this stuff fun.

00:06:06.160 And how do I then go into a meeting with a staff member and have a really careful, empathetic

00:06:12.340 conversation?

00:06:13.500 So these micro transitions are just where we move from one thing to the next.

00:06:19.280 Okay.

00:06:19.360 So a space can be, it can be a physical space, a transition from office to home, but it's

00:06:25.100 also, I really like this idea.

00:06:27.060 You're saying that this can also just be about switching roles, right?

00:06:30.860 It can be a mental space.

00:06:32.320 Yeah, totally.

00:06:34.180 I think you nailed that and really described that beautifully of it can be physical.

00:06:38.860 It can be mental.

00:06:40.180 So for example, last night, a mate of mine's in hospital and I drove a long way to go see

00:06:46.640 him.

00:06:47.240 And then as I was driving home, my wife called me and went, your children.

00:06:52.260 And that's the line.

00:06:53.500 Like when she says your children, I know something's gone wrong.

00:06:57.300 And she said, your children are driving me crazy and this has gone on, that's gone on.

00:07:04.300 So then I went, all right, when I transition home, I've got to really support her.

00:07:09.300 So I've got to go from being playful and jokey with my best mate to, okay, I've got to go home.

00:07:16.260 I've got to be empathetic.

00:07:17.320 I've got to be caring.

00:07:18.280 I've got to meet her needs.

00:07:19.400 So, you know, that's much more of a mental shift of, well, how do I need to show up?

00:07:26.680 And then because these are called micro transitions, these transitions happen, can happen in the

00:07:31.020 same place.

00:07:31.540 So at work, you're just talking about, you know, you were talking to one client who had

00:07:35.180 a specific set of needs and then you're going to transition to another, you know, maybe an

00:07:39.760 interview on a podcast.

00:07:41.000 Yeah.

00:07:41.240 And that requires a specific type of presence.

00:07:43.420 And then you might transition to, I got to do the budget and that requires certain things.

00:07:47.740 So yeah, this, it's just all about transitioning from roles to different types of mental space.

00:07:53.120 And that's, I think when I, that idea really helped me understand some of the problems that

00:07:58.220 I've run into as well in my own work, where I bring stuff over from one mental space that

00:08:04.880 I was at to the next, and it just, it can mess things up.

00:08:09.240 Yeah.

00:08:09.880 Beautiful.

00:08:10.500 I loved what you just said then.

00:08:11.860 Cause look, one thing in our research is what we found is people aren't aware of them.

00:08:17.040 Like they're aware of them, but they're not conscious of them.

00:08:20.640 And they don't really think about, well, how am I moving from one thing to another?

00:08:25.040 So as you just said, so often we bring the mood and mindset of the previous thing into

00:08:30.440 the next thing, right?

00:08:32.260 So you might have a bad day, you take it home, or you might have a meeting with a client where

00:08:38.400 they chew you out and tell you, Hey, I'm unhappy with this.

00:08:41.920 And then you go meet with your team and you take it out on them.

00:08:45.440 So what this is, is how do I get over what I've just done, but also how am I showing up

00:08:51.280 for the next thing?

00:08:52.120 And what does that require of me?

00:08:53.920 And I screwed this up the other day.

00:08:55.600 You talk about when things go bad.

00:08:57.240 One of my staff hadn't got back to a client and it'd been three or four days.

00:09:01.240 And I went into my team meeting realizing, Hey, that client hasn't got back to, you know,

00:09:08.940 hasn't got a reply from us.

00:09:10.560 So I went into this meeting and I'm annoyed and I'm frustrated and I'm angry.

00:09:15.980 And I brought this thing up about four times to that person who's responsible for it.

00:09:22.360 And I kept writing them.

00:09:24.180 And later on, my staff pulled me aside and said, Hey, you're a real jerk in that meeting.

00:09:28.160 And you went too far and you got to apologize.

00:09:31.660 And I went, Oh, he's so right.

00:09:33.540 So I had to sit down with the person and say, Hey, you know, I was out of line in that meeting.

00:09:38.380 But the problem was I carried the frustration of the task into the meeting.

00:09:44.420 And yeah, I've repaired the relationship now, but it did damage.

00:09:49.880 Okay.

00:09:49.940 So we might be aware that these micro transitions are happening.

00:09:52.060 The problem that we have is that we're not proactive about managing the transitions that

00:09:57.880 happen throughout the day.

00:09:59.140 And I thought it was really interesting in the book, you talk about what we can learn from

00:10:03.140 soldiers transitioning from combat to civilian life about the importance of proactively managing

00:10:10.260 our day-to-day transition.

00:10:11.480 So what have you found there?

00:10:13.500 Yeah, that's, it's interesting.

00:10:14.820 You brought that up and it shows you've done your research because what really kicked this

00:10:18.320 off was just a series of interactions.

00:10:21.600 And one of the first was I was doing some work with some special forces soldiers who

00:10:26.280 just are amazing.

00:10:28.600 And I got, you know, friendly with some of them.

00:10:31.620 And I said, Hey, like, what's the biggest challenge you face as a special forces soldier?

00:10:36.980 And I was thinking, you know, not die or, or how do I complete a mission successfully?

00:10:43.460 And all of them went, Oh man, coming home from being deployed.

00:10:47.360 And I said, like, what do you mean?

00:10:49.400 And they go, Oh, just, I don't know what goes on, but I come home and I just kind of fight

00:10:55.480 with, you know, my partner.

00:10:56.980 Uh, and, and it's, there's just a lot of tension in the home and it settles down after a couple

00:11:01.740 of weeks, but the first couple of weeks are really shaky.

00:11:04.320 And I just went, Oh, that's fascinating.

00:11:07.220 And when I started to talk to people, what they said was, well, one of them that did it

00:11:13.920 well, he said, a psychologist once told me that, how am I using the plane ride home to

00:11:20.620 adapt my behavior to suit my family?

00:11:22.900 Because while I've been away for six months, things have changed.

00:11:26.900 And too often those soldiers would walk in and go, well, I'm just going to slip back into

00:11:31.600 my old role and I'm kind of going to run the joint.

00:11:35.840 And the family's like, nah, we've been doing fine since you've been away.

00:11:39.740 And what this psychologist said to him is how do you adapt to your environment rather than

00:11:44.880 how do they adapt to you?

00:11:46.460 And this soldier said, when I thought about how am I going to fit back in and how am I going

00:11:52.660 to change my behavior?

00:11:55.460 He said that first two weeks was great.

00:11:58.580 And so this was one of the first interactions that got me thinking about transitions.

00:12:03.240 So, okay.

00:12:03.480 Every micro transition you say consists of a first space and so that's the environment

00:12:07.960 or the mental space we find ourselves in right now.

00:12:11.140 Then there's the second space and that's the role or environment or mental space we're going

00:12:16.100 to be transitioning to.

00:12:17.180 So it could be first space is office, second space is home.

00:12:21.900 And then the third space, which is the name of your book, is the space between first and

00:12:26.580 second where you proactively decide how you're going to show up in that second space.

00:12:32.760 So what does a third space look like?

00:12:34.860 I mean, what are examples of it?

00:12:35.940 So if a third space, we've been talking about this, a third space could be both an environment,

00:12:40.400 a physical environment and a mental space.

00:12:42.260 How do we create third spaces for ourselves in our daily lives?

00:12:45.400 What we looked at in our research is what is the perfect transition?

00:12:52.100 And the perfect transition, whether it's, you know, the first space is I'm meeting with

00:12:56.300 a client, the second space is I'm meeting with a new prospect, right?

00:13:01.160 So it's all these spaces.

00:13:03.220 So the perfect third space has three components, which is reflect, rest, reset.

00:13:10.920 So reflect is how do I reflect on what just happened and how do I shut it down?

00:13:17.620 So this is all about like, how do I perceive what just went on?

00:13:21.860 And am I carrying, you know, angst or a negative mindset forward?

00:13:27.600 So the first part is how do I shut down that space I'm leaving?

00:13:31.620 The second part is the rest phase, which is how do I become present?

00:13:37.460 And this is all about just focusing your mind on the moment.

00:13:42.220 And too often we go into the next space and our heads all over the shop.

00:13:47.740 We're worrying about three meetings ago or we're predicting disaster.

00:13:52.240 So this rest phase is just, can I become present?

00:13:56.360 And then the final part is the reset piece, which is how am I about to show up to this

00:14:01.640 thing and how do I need to show up to get the best out of this next interaction?

00:14:08.460 So, you know, that last piece, that reset is almost like, you know, people talk about

00:14:12.880 athletes visualizing performance and what we're doing is the exact same thing.

00:14:18.940 So I'm about to go into a meeting with a client.

00:14:20.660 I know they're frustrated about this.

00:14:22.880 I know that they're going to ask questions about, you know, the last delivery or whatever

00:14:27.060 it is you're anticipating.

00:14:30.080 If I'm about to go in to have a hard conversation with a staff member, they're probably feeling

00:14:36.120 threatened.

00:14:37.720 They're feeling scared or they're uncertain.

00:14:41.120 How do I show up and adapt to that to help that person listen to the hard conversation I've

00:14:46.340 got to do?

00:14:46.960 So it's those three parts, reflect, rest, reset.

00:14:49.320 And look, obviously the context affects how much of and how many of them you can do.

00:14:56.420 But it's those three phases.

00:14:58.260 Okay.

00:14:58.400 So third space doesn't necessarily have to be a physical space.

00:15:00.860 It could be, but it can just be a mental thing you do as you transition from one thing

00:15:05.720 to the next.

00:15:06.300 It can be really fast too.

00:15:08.160 Yeah, totally.

00:15:09.320 It can be super instantaneous of say you're just doing admin at your desk.

00:15:14.920 All of a sudden you've got some sort of crisis.

00:15:17.380 So what you have to like very quickly, really in that moment, all you're doing is the reset

00:15:24.100 of how do I have to show up for this?

00:15:26.660 So I've got this crisis.

00:15:27.720 I've got this problem.

00:15:28.900 Forget, reflect and rest because I don't have time to reflect.

00:15:33.200 And I'm so focused on this thing.

00:15:35.020 I don't need the rest phase, but it's all about what am I bringing to this?

00:15:39.980 So there is a context piece.

00:15:41.760 And look, even, you know, I spoke to an executive the other day and he's got a global role.

00:15:47.700 And he said, I would go home on the phone.

00:15:50.600 I get out of the car.

00:15:51.580 I walk in the house.

00:15:52.440 I'm still on the phone.

00:15:53.640 My kids run up to hug me and I'm literally pushing them off.

00:15:57.460 My wife mouths to me, get off the phone and spend time with your children. 1.00

00:16:01.700 I go, shut up, I'm talking to the US.

00:16:05.360 And he said, it's a disaster.

00:16:07.080 Like, of course, I'm going to have a bad interaction because that's my transition into the home.

00:16:12.020 He said, when I heard your talk, all I did was that reset piece.

00:16:16.640 So I finished the call in the car.

00:16:18.860 And after I hang up the phone, I do a little breathing activity to calm myself.

00:16:24.520 And then I think, all right, what sort of dad do I want to be when I walk through that door?

00:16:28.360 What sort of partner?

00:16:29.240 So he's already arrived physically, but he's just changing his mentality.

00:16:36.500 In the book, the examples of people creating third spaces mentally on the fly because they

00:16:41.680 have to make a transition fast.

00:16:43.140 The ones that really stood out to me were the ones where you talk to doctors who they're

00:16:48.020 seeing lots of patients on a daily basis.

00:16:50.260 So each patient is a new space.

00:16:52.680 And you talk about how one patient they might be talking to and they've got terminal cancer.

00:16:56.900 And it's terrible.

00:16:59.540 They feel bad.

00:17:00.360 But then they have to move to the next patient who has maybe a problem.

00:17:05.320 It's maybe their cholesterol is a little bit high.

00:17:08.360 And they're really worried about it.

00:17:10.060 And they're anxious.

00:17:11.040 And it's tempting for these doctors to be like, oh, my gosh, this is not a problem.

00:17:14.520 You could have cancer.

00:17:15.400 I just talked to a guy who has cancer.

00:17:16.760 But the doctor has to make that third space transition.

00:17:19.480 It's like, no, for this patient who has high cholesterol, it's important to them.

00:17:22.900 So how can I use this third space to kind of put aside what happened to that person that

00:17:28.860 I dealt with who has cancer and put all my attention on this person who's got maybe slightly

00:17:32.940 elevated cholesterol?

00:17:34.880 Yeah.

00:17:35.400 Oh, Brad, I love that you brought up that example.

00:17:37.680 It's such a beautiful one.

00:17:38.980 And one doctor in particular, he said, we're human beings.

00:17:43.860 And he said, the problem is often we bring judgment to the interaction, which is, it's

00:17:49.380 just high cholesterol.

00:17:50.340 Get over yourself.

00:17:51.140 Stop being so emotional.

00:17:53.080 But he said, that's a terrible way to show up for a patient.

00:17:56.700 And his reset is as each patient comes in or as he walks into the room, he thinks, if this

00:18:02.940 was my mother or father, how would I want a doctor to treat them?

00:18:06.400 So he literally does this every time he walks into the room.

00:18:12.160 And he said, I actually hold the door handle and I pause, I take a deep breath and I think

00:18:17.600 that thought and I walk in.

00:18:19.860 And he said, I give better bedside manner.

00:18:22.900 I give better service.

00:18:24.820 And one of the things about the third space, that piece of how am I showing up?

00:18:28.780 Am I showing up with judgment?

00:18:30.460 Am I showing up and I've already played the take forward where I go, oh, they'll probably

00:18:35.580 say this and then they'll do that.

00:18:36.920 And we've already created this bad interaction.

00:18:40.360 That's what this piece is about is how do we be adaptable in the way we show up and affect

00:18:45.860 the people around us?

00:18:47.740 Okay.

00:18:47.940 So a third space has this reflect, rest and reset part.

00:18:52.440 And I hope we can dig into some of these things a little bit more.

00:18:54.400 You have like these great questions that you can ask yourself in each of these phases of

00:18:58.420 the third space.

00:18:59.500 Third space can be just completely mental.

00:19:01.720 It can be fast.

00:19:02.760 It can happen in a matter of seconds.

00:19:03.940 But I like the examples you give that you can expand out this third space to really help

00:19:09.420 you make that transition from one role to the next.

00:19:13.780 And you can actually create like a physical third space.

00:19:16.220 You can go through this process.

00:19:17.620 What are some examples that you found in your research of people who made physical third

00:19:21.920 spaces for themselves so that they could transition from the first space to the second space?

00:19:27.920 Yeah.

00:19:28.160 I mean, we had one.

00:19:30.840 The one that makes me laugh the most is, and this was one of the things that really started

00:19:34.880 this concept, is I had dinner with a CEO.

00:19:38.240 So I was working with this group and the CEO invited me for dinner.

00:19:41.720 And I went over and I'm interacting with him and his family.

00:19:45.380 And I was in awe of this guy.

00:19:48.080 He was so present and so funny and fun with his family.

00:19:53.120 And I just sat there the whole time going, man, that's how I want to be when I'm at home.

00:19:58.680 And I said, how do you transition from psycho businessman to super dad?

00:20:04.620 And what he talked about is that he actually built a new entrance into his home.

00:20:09.600 And I know this is not something everyone can do, but just hear me out.

00:20:13.000 So what he did is that he parks the car in his garage.

00:20:17.600 He has built a door from the garage straight to his bedroom.

00:20:21.780 And he said, I parked the car.

00:20:24.340 I go through that door into my room.

00:20:25.900 And he said, I'm not allowed to talk to anyone.

00:20:28.700 He said, the kids know, don't run into the room.

00:20:31.420 Don't come and see me because dad's changing gears.

00:20:35.500 He said, I go into my room.

00:20:36.740 I take off my suit.

00:20:38.000 He said, I have a shower.

00:20:39.020 And visually, I kind of wash the day away.

00:20:42.260 And then he said, I put on casual clothes.

00:20:45.240 And I do this kind of little relaxation thing that only takes two minutes.

00:20:49.380 And he said, then I go greet the family.

00:20:51.780 And he said, I lose 15 minutes.

00:20:53.640 But the state I'm in is so worth it.

00:20:56.540 So that's obviously an extreme one.

00:20:59.920 Some other third spaces that I can think of have just been,

00:21:04.940 God, what have other people done?

00:21:06.320 There's so many examples.

00:21:08.120 You know, for me, how I use it is at the end of the day.

00:21:12.340 So when I finish work, I grab my dog, Tilly.

00:21:16.340 My two daughters come with me for a walk to the dog park, which is down the end of the street.

00:21:21.100 So this is what I'll be doing today.

00:21:22.940 My wife gets an hour to herself. 1.00

00:21:25.560 So we're out for an hour.

00:21:27.100 She gets time to herself.

00:21:28.360 So we go to the dog park.

00:21:29.680 We let Tilly off. 0.94

00:21:30.880 We're outside.

00:21:31.980 We're running around because my daughters are really active.

00:21:34.200 And I might, like, tackle them into the grass.

00:21:36.700 And we're just being idiots, right?

00:21:38.420 And then we walk home.

00:21:40.780 And as I walk through that door, I think to myself, how many more days like this do I have?

00:21:49.040 Because, you know, I don't know if you're a parent.

00:21:52.000 But the cliché thing is they – people say it goes fast.

00:21:56.180 Man, they do not exaggerate.

00:21:58.240 It goes in a blink of an eye.

00:21:59.400 And as I walk through the door, I think, how many more days will my daughters want to come with me for the walk, you know, before it starts to be, oh, dad's not cool anymore?

00:22:09.640 And I just think, you know, don't ruin this.

00:22:12.020 Don't take this for granted.

00:22:13.960 So my third space is that.

00:22:16.620 Now, look, if I'm flying home late, I'll do it in the car.

00:22:20.980 But, you know, so the beautiful thing about this concept is we take it and make it suit our life and our world.

00:22:28.340 And it's about here's how I'm going to apply that in my situation.

00:22:32.980 There's not like you have to do this, you have to do that.

00:22:35.980 It's take the concept and make it suit your world.

00:22:39.440 Yeah, some of the other examples of physical third spaces that people use to go through this reflect, rest, and reset process.

00:22:45.980 The commute is a perfect example where you're driving from work back to home.

00:22:49.760 You can go through that and prepare yourself for that second space of being home.

00:22:53.140 Going to the gym was another one before they get home.

00:22:56.400 Like they stop at the gym, get a workout on, and then they put their dad clothes or their home clothes on.

00:23:03.660 So they're not coming in their office clothes.

00:23:05.940 And then, I mean, you can even do this at work.

00:23:07.620 I imagine like if you're transitioning from, say, administrative work to creative work,

00:23:13.660 you could have a space where you go where I'm putting off administrative brain and I'm going into creative mode.

00:23:20.160 Like, I'll sit at my desk when I'm doing what I call doodads.

00:23:24.600 And this is just administrative work to keep the business going.

00:23:28.180 But then there's a spot on the couch where I like to sit to do my writing.

00:23:31.300 And by moving between places in the house that I work, that helps me transition from one kind of work task to another.

00:23:38.840 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:23:44.600 And now back to the show.

00:23:46.080 Okay, so third space, it can be mental, it can be physical.

00:23:49.900 But what we're doing is we're trying to do these three phases of the third space, which is reflect, rest, and reset.

00:23:55.380 And we've kind of talked about how you can do this a bit, but I want to go a little deeper.

00:23:59.420 So with this reflect, are there any specific questions you found really useful when you're reflecting about what happened in that first space environment that you were in

00:24:08.460 that can help you get ready for that second space environment?

00:24:11.400 Yeah, hey, that's a great question.

00:24:14.140 Because what we found is when we ask people to reflect on what they've just done, our natural tendency is to look at what was bad about it.

00:24:23.420 So when they would reflect on their workday, they go, oh my gosh, I forgot that email.

00:24:28.500 When am I fitting that in?

00:24:29.760 That project's still not done.

00:24:31.620 Oh my God.

00:24:32.540 And what they had was this really cynical bias when they reflected.

00:24:36.180 Now, one of the things we noticed about special forces soldiers is every time they debrief an activity, they would ask themselves the questions, you know, what went well about that?

00:24:46.380 What did we achieve?

00:24:48.100 How did we improve?

00:24:50.080 And I said to some of them, why do you do those questions?

00:24:53.180 And they said, look, we're so hardwired to look at what's wrong.

00:24:57.620 Like that is our natural default.

00:24:59.920 So we did an exercise, what do we need to improve?

00:25:03.800 What was bad?

00:25:05.600 You know, what went wrong then?

00:25:07.060 Or what caused that mistake?

00:25:08.940 They said that's our natural default.

00:25:11.740 But those questions about what went well, what did I improve?

00:25:15.160 How did I get better?

00:25:16.480 That focuses us on progress and evolution.

00:25:19.860 And I thought that's just so interesting.

00:25:23.620 And what we inserted in that reflect phase were those three questions.

00:25:28.660 You know, what went well today?

00:25:30.060 And no matter how bad a day you've had, something's gone well.

00:25:34.080 What did you achieve?

00:25:35.840 We always achieve something.

00:25:37.280 And how did I improve?

00:25:38.980 How did I evolve?

00:25:40.200 Was my leadership better?

00:25:41.840 Or did I collaborate with this group?

00:25:44.140 And what we found in that reflect phase is that when people answer those questions at the end of the day, what happens is they get a burst of happiness and the mindset they take home is more optimistic.

00:25:55.400 So that reflect phase is about is that reflection balanced or is it just looking at mistakes?

00:26:03.780 And you talk about like if we get a bit deeper, we've had some organizations like a cancer charity expanded this and they went, oh, our challenge is that we often hear devastating news and we take that home.

00:26:19.620 Because, you know, they can go through some full on stuff when they're dealing with kids with cancer.

00:26:25.460 And what they set up was a whiteboard.

00:26:28.080 And as people left the workday, they had to write up, here's something I did really well today or here's something that was great about the day.

00:26:37.020 And as people leave, they read the comments and write their thing up.

00:26:40.660 And all it does is just gives their mood a little boost.

00:26:44.620 Yeah, I like focusing on the wins because I think what it sounds like it's doing, it's sort of decontaminating the negative so that you can transition.

00:26:53.460 So you don't have that spill over into the second space.

00:26:56.800 Yeah, and it's not being the Pollyanna delusional optimist of we won't talk about the hard things or we won't talk about mistakes.

00:27:04.480 Like you still got to have those hard conversations, but reflect is just, is my reflection balanced or am I just beating myself up or I'm just focusing on all the bad things?

00:27:15.760 So it's not, you know, sometimes I worry about sort of delusional motivation or being the Pollyanna optimist.

00:27:23.700 It's just, am I balanced in my reflection?

00:27:26.300 Because we found most people weren't.

00:27:27.980 Yeah, I can see if you had something really bad happen at work and you think, well, that didn't go well, but I handled the situation the best I could.

00:27:38.440 And that's a win, right?

00:27:39.460 I mean, you're still recognizing that what happened was really crappy, but you recognize, you know, I did pretty well handling the situation and maybe you still made some progress.

00:27:49.520 Yeah, and I might have fell on my face, but man, at least I stepped up and I took a swing.

00:27:55.180 Like that can be the reflection or as you pointed out, yeah, that didn't go as well as I'd hoped, but I think I did that well.

00:28:03.360 Or when that client objected to that issue, yeah, I think I answered that question really, really well.

00:28:11.120 So yeah, it's about finding the little nuggets of improvement and gold in that rather than just going, oh, that was a disaster or God, I'm hopeless.

00:28:21.180 That's what we're talking about.

00:28:22.660 Okay, so that's reflect.

00:28:25.040 So you're reflecting on what happened in the first case and you want to kind of, you want to have a balanced view of it because we tend to go negative.

00:28:31.080 That's our default as human beings is to think negative, but balance it with, by thinking about the wins that happened.

00:28:36.580 The next part is rest and that's all about being present.

00:28:39.080 And I think you mentioned it could be as simple as just taking a breath, you know, sort of doing a quick meditation.

00:28:44.180 What are some other things you found that are useful in this rest part?

00:28:47.040 Yeah, well, as you pointed out, like the objective is how do I become present and how do I calm my brain?

00:28:54.020 Obviously, breathing meditation is the ultimate.

00:28:59.120 And some people, you know, I'm thinking about one guy.

00:29:01.800 He said, he sent me an email.

00:29:04.980 He goes, I've operationalized the third space.

00:29:07.760 He said, I get the bus home from the city.

00:29:10.020 I set a calendar alert to ask me those three questions.

00:29:13.360 He said, I'm already looking at my phone on the bus.

00:29:16.220 Those three questions come up.

00:29:17.960 They ask, I answer them in my head.

00:29:20.620 And the rest phase, he said, I've got a mindfulness app on my phone.

00:29:24.720 He said, I've already got headphones in.

00:29:26.500 I put the app on.

00:29:27.640 I'm on the bus.

00:29:28.380 I close my eyes.

00:29:29.580 I do that.

00:29:30.820 Look, some people talk about exercise as their rest.

00:29:34.640 And the thing is, you know, going to the gym, exercising where you're focusing on a task.

00:29:41.240 Really, really brilliant.

00:29:43.800 Oh, this is interesting.

00:29:45.360 Is people who rode a bicycle home or rode a motorbike, that rest is taken care of.

00:29:53.740 And what they said is that the days I ride to work, I show up better at home.

00:29:59.680 And the reason is that if you're riding a motorbike or a bicycle, you've got to be so focused, you can't think about anything else.

00:30:06.680 So it's forced focus.

00:30:09.580 And so you're not riding home ruminating about the day or thinking, oh, I should have done that better.

00:30:14.340 You're looking out for cars or you're being hypervigilant.

00:30:18.100 And what that does is just focuses your brain.

00:30:21.980 Look, one thing we did, you know, I live in Sydney.

00:30:25.660 And one of the things we have is just the most beautiful harbour on earth.

00:30:30.280 It's just heaven.

00:30:31.800 And we noticed people that got the ferry home were much happier in the home environment.

00:30:38.200 And if you look at that transition, they're on water.

00:30:42.020 So they're literally being rocked.

00:30:44.260 So it's calming them, that rocking motion of the boat on the water.

00:30:48.840 They're looking at one of the best views in the world.

00:30:52.480 And they've got like, you know, because it's very beautiful.

00:30:55.400 There's lots of trees and lots of nature.

00:30:57.560 So they're in nature.

00:30:58.800 They're being rocked.

00:31:00.160 And they're appreciating beauty, which makes them present.

00:31:04.160 Those people, man, they arrived home so happy they were dangerous.

00:31:08.360 So there's so many things we can do in that rest phase about calming us.

00:31:14.640 Okay.

00:31:14.880 So I like that.

00:31:15.700 So just do what works for you.

00:31:17.400 So the simple breath activity exercise might be useful if you have to make a really fast

00:31:24.080 microtransition, maybe just a matter of seconds.

00:31:26.860 But then if you've got some time, you can expand this out.

00:31:29.580 And it might be a walk or it could be exercise or it could be even just a simple change.

00:31:35.020 I mean, I've always liked the saying, change is a rest.

00:31:37.660 So maybe doing something with your hands or, you know, all sorts of things could work.

00:31:42.440 Yeah.

00:31:42.660 I mean, it's kind of, it's limited by your imagination.

00:31:46.540 So let's talk about the third phase of the third space, and that is reset.

00:31:50.360 And this is the final step when we're getting in, about to move into that second phase.

00:31:54.200 So what are some questions or reflections or things we should be doing to reset so that

00:31:59.760 we're ready to move into this second space?

00:32:03.800 Yeah.

00:32:04.060 So, I mean, as I talked about earlier, it's kind of like, as the athlete goes into the

00:32:09.480 competition, they think to themselves, you know, what do I want to focus on?

00:32:14.440 What's my game plan?

00:32:15.780 What's my race plan?

00:32:17.540 And what we found is for the average person, the best questions are, what is my intent?

00:32:23.840 So what do I want to achieve in this space?

00:32:28.740 You know, obviously I literally transitioned into this podcast and, you know, my focus was,

00:32:37.260 what do I want to achieve?

00:32:39.720 And I thought to myself, this is a concept that so many people have come up to me and

00:32:44.740 said it has emotionally affected them or revolutionized their home life.

00:32:51.380 So as I came into this podcast, I'm like, I've got to be focused.

00:32:55.740 I've got to be in the moment.

00:32:57.140 I've got to be animated because I want to, I want these people listening to change how

00:33:03.160 they show up for the people that mean the most to them.

00:33:06.020 So I literally in my transition connected to emotion and service and meaning and purpose.

00:33:13.220 So that's my intent.

00:33:14.920 And then what you think about is, well, how do I have to behave to get that intention?

00:33:21.620 So if my intention is I want to go home and be a playful dad, you know, what's my behavior?

00:33:29.260 Well, I come in, my gestures are more animated.

00:33:32.640 I'm happy.

00:33:33.700 I'm enthusiastic.

00:33:35.300 Whereas if I'm about to go have a hard conversation with a staff member, I want to be the complete

00:33:40.220 opposite of that.

00:33:41.400 I want to be measured.

00:33:42.820 I want my gestures to be small.

00:33:45.280 I want to be empathetic.

00:33:47.280 And I don't want to go in with this whole story in my head of you did this and this was

00:33:54.500 your intent.

00:33:55.860 Like the first thing I'm going to say is, hey, we got this feedback from a client.

00:33:59.920 Just give me a perspective about what was going on.

00:34:03.080 Why did that occur?

00:34:04.380 So I want to go in without judgment and empathy.

00:34:07.600 And I'm visualizing, okay, my intent is I want this person to feel safe.

00:34:14.120 I want them to progress.

00:34:15.480 I want them to evolve.

00:34:16.900 How do I have to behave for that to occur?

00:34:20.500 Okay.

00:34:20.640 So how are you going to show up?

00:34:21.860 And I think you made a good point.

00:34:23.380 I think sometimes when people hear this, they think, okay, well, I want to be a great dad.

00:34:27.240 I want to show up and be enthusiastic, fun, et cetera.

00:34:30.320 You go into your home with that intention from work, but the kids are just crazy.

00:34:35.120 Your wife's upset because they've just been driving her nuts and the house is a mess. 1.00

00:34:39.440 And so you have this intention, well, I'm going to be a great dad and be awesome.

00:34:42.800 But then the situation you find yourself in, it kind of just crashes against that expectation

00:34:48.720 of what you thought it was going to be like.

00:34:50.160 And so people get really frustrated and they get angry.

00:34:53.280 Then their intention that they had in place goes out the window and then they turn into

00:34:57.920 mad dad instead of awesome dad.

00:35:00.040 And so the point you made is that you need to have this intention, but don't be too attached

00:35:06.220 to an outcome in that second space.

00:35:09.440 Yeah, Brett, that's a beautiful point.

00:35:13.080 Yeah.

00:35:13.600 Obviously we want to visualize and focus on what we want to achieve, but we've also got to be

00:35:21.080 flexible with it.

00:35:22.700 And this happened to me the other day.

00:35:24.460 So I had a great day at work and I transitioned home and I was like, the king of the world

00:35:31.380 has entered the home.

00:35:32.720 You know, I had this huge success.

00:35:34.260 I was on this high and I walk in and my 13 year old daughter is in a bad mood. 1.00

00:35:40.280 And as soon as I walk in, she gives me attitude out of the gate and I was just crushed.

00:35:46.720 And what I noticed is I started to like, I wanted to have the argument and the fight

00:35:52.560 and I wanted her to feel bad.

00:35:54.640 So what I noticed is I went in feeling awesome.

00:35:57.080 She made me feel bad.

00:35:58.080 And I'm thinking to myself, I want to pay it back.

00:36:00.280 Like, I want you to feel bad.

00:36:01.620 So we started to get into this little tit for tat thing.

00:36:05.800 And I just went, just don't go down that road.

00:36:09.460 And I said to her, hey, I can just tell you're not in the headspace to have a conversation

00:36:14.000 and I don't want to say something I didn't mean.

00:36:16.260 So, hey, Bells, I love you, but I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm checking out of this conversation

00:36:21.600 and why don't you have some time to yourself?

00:36:24.180 Now, sometimes it doesn't work and I go home and I expect this great interaction and I get

00:36:29.760 a bad one.

00:36:30.400 And if I've had a really tough day, I might take it out on them a little bit and we're

00:36:34.600 not perfect.

00:36:35.420 But what this is about is that, well, in that next interaction, I have to be flexible.

00:36:41.060 So we've talked about this third space.

00:36:42.760 There's the three phases, reflect, rest, and reset.

00:36:46.260 Let's kind of walk through real life examples that men might experience on a daily basis.

00:36:51.740 And you said, I think a lot of guys just bringing work home is something a lot of men struggle

00:36:56.360 with.

00:36:57.180 And I think they'd rather show up better for their family and not bring work home, like

00:37:02.280 the negative energy or the negativity of work home with them.

00:37:05.040 Yeah.

00:37:05.180 So let's say, okay, a guy has a bad day at work.

00:37:08.360 That's the first space.

00:37:10.000 Maybe his boss reamed him for something.

00:37:12.380 He messed up.

00:37:13.140 A client canceled an account.

00:37:15.620 And he's got that commute between work and home, home being the second space.

00:37:21.080 What would a third space moment look like for this guy during his commute?

00:37:26.660 Yeah.

00:37:27.060 Hey, before I answer that, can we just go back a little piece?

00:37:30.100 Sure.

00:37:30.280 Because, you know, I have a number of presentation topics that I present when I speak at a conference.

00:37:37.240 But when I do this one, the most common group that come up to me, and usually it's at the

00:37:42.640 drinks after or at the conference dinner.

00:37:44.400 So they've had a couple of glasses of wine, which loosens them up a little bit.

00:37:47.540 But a lot of men come up to me, and particularly older sort of wise men, and they come up and

00:37:55.440 go, man, I wish I'd seen that thing 20 years ago.

00:38:00.240 And what they talk about is they said, you know, I'm proud of my success.

00:38:03.660 I'm proud of the money I've earned, you know, what I've achieved.

00:38:07.480 But the most common line I hear is, but the people that meant the most to me got the worst

00:38:14.060 version of me.

00:38:16.280 And this is where they start to get emotional.

00:38:18.460 And they just go, man, if I just, if I have my time over again, that's the thing I do differently.

00:38:24.600 I just think too often I took the day home.

00:38:28.100 I took it out on, you know, my family or my partner, or even, you know, if they lived on

00:38:33.500 their own, they went home and stewed over it, or didn't socialize, or didn't connect

00:38:38.480 with people because of their bad day.

00:38:41.680 And this is the thing I hear from men the most, is I find it hard to go home and change

00:38:47.280 gears.

00:38:48.260 But when they get it right, it's a different sport.

00:38:55.000 And, you know, men in particular who don't tend to be emotional send me emails going, man,

00:38:59.920 thanks, thanks for that thing, because it really made an impact.

00:39:03.840 So I suppose for the people listening here, this is big steak stuff.

00:39:08.480 Like we don't want to muck around with this, because this is the stuff we worry about later

00:39:13.940 in life.

00:39:14.940 So if you think about that guy, if he's had a really bad day, you know, there's multiple

00:39:20.480 things he can do, depending on what he, if he already has a third space practice.

00:39:24.480 So it could be like when I've had that bad day, I call a friend and I say to them, hey,

00:39:31.540 I just got to, I've got to do a bit of a dump and I need a debrief and I need a pick me up.

00:39:37.080 And I'll call a mate and they'll empathize and talk to me about it and go, oh, that sucks.

00:39:42.380 And yeah, that happens to me.

00:39:43.600 And I hate it when, you know, this goes on.

00:39:45.660 So that reflect phase is a really empathetic and almost a bit of a venting session.

00:39:52.620 And sometimes after that, like rarely, you know, a mate might say, but, you know, what

00:40:00.260 was good about that or was that the only thing that happened in the day?

00:40:04.480 They don't kind of go turn that frown upside down, but they're helpful in that.

00:40:09.480 Yeah, but man, you got all this stuff going on.

00:40:11.560 So don't let that bother you too much.

00:40:13.560 So you could connect with a friend, even with your partner.

00:40:16.380 Some days I, you know, I text my wife, I text my wife the other day and I just went,

00:40:21.900 man, I just got some feedback and I thought it was going to be great and it wasn't and

00:40:27.620 I'm crushed and I'm just going to take a little bit longer to come home.

00:40:32.560 Like, I'm just going to go for a bit of a walk first.

00:40:35.680 And so I've communicated with her and sort of set some expectations.

00:40:40.960 And that day I came home, I tried to transition.

00:40:44.220 I wasn't doing it very well.

00:40:46.500 And, you know, I was taking it out on the kids and she looked at me and said, hey,

00:40:50.220 I'm taking you for a walk.

00:40:51.720 So we did another walk and we kind of debriefed the day.

00:40:56.280 But she said, hey, you can't show up like that because you've been a jerk.

00:40:59.720 Like, you can't take that out on the kids.

00:41:01.640 And I went, yeah, you're right.

00:41:02.640 And we went for a walk and we debriefed and had a chat.

00:41:05.520 So, you know, there's various things like that.

00:41:08.040 It could be sometimes I use, you know, a funny podcast, you know, something that makes

00:41:13.920 me laugh on that transition home.

00:41:16.820 You know, that guy could think about, you know, what he's grateful for.

00:41:21.140 Or it could be to communicate to your partner, hey, I'm really struggling.

00:41:25.200 So I'm kind of checking out a bit tonight and I'm going to have some interaction, but

00:41:29.280 I just need a bit of introverted time.

00:41:32.120 So do you get what I'm saying?

00:41:33.220 It's much more about looking at, okay, if I've had a really bad day, what am I doing

00:41:38.400 to help myself recover from that?

00:41:40.320 And I might have to lean on other people or my partner, but that's some of the things they

00:41:45.820 could proactively do.

00:41:47.560 Look, I mean, probably the biggest one in there is do some sort of exercise that burns

00:41:51.780 off all that cortisol and adrenaline that they've accumulated.

00:41:55.200 So they might go, yeah, I'm coming home, but I'm going for a run or I'm going to the

00:41:58.560 gym.

00:41:59.380 There's various things.

00:42:00.880 Does that make sense?

00:42:01.860 That makes sense.

00:42:02.480 So you had the reflect, rest, and then reset and the various different things.

00:42:07.220 It's like, okay, on the commute home, I'm going to reflect, maybe call a friend if it

00:42:10.880 is bad and maybe just kind of vent, do a walk before I walk into the home around the block.

00:42:17.600 And then I'm going to change into my home clothes and be dad now.

00:42:22.820 Yeah.

00:42:23.400 And we've got to be really realistic about this.

00:42:26.520 This is not some sort of magical wand.

00:42:28.480 Like one thing we know about the third space is it's skill-based.

00:42:31.720 If we practice it and do it, we get better at it and we get better at it really fast.

00:42:37.380 Like we got executives to do this for a month and one of the things we measured was the

00:42:43.080 mood of their home.

00:42:44.460 And what we showed is in a month, they saw a 43% improvement in mood in the home.

00:42:49.700 Like their homes got happier by 43% by these executives, you know, men and women that were

00:42:55.840 in this group.

00:42:56.700 Once they practice it, they got really good at it.

00:42:59.820 But some days you're just not going to be good at it.

00:43:02.500 And sometimes, you know, I go home or actually I had a guy talk to me the other day.

00:43:07.060 He said, bloody hell, I love this concept.

00:43:08.740 He said, just makes me really aware.

00:43:11.080 And he said, I had a really bad day and nothing I did was helping.

00:43:14.380 And he said, I went in the home and all I thought to myself is just minimize the damage.

00:43:21.340 Like you're not going to be a good version, but just don't say something stupid or don't

00:43:25.780 be mean.

00:43:27.200 And he said, yeah, I was really quiet and I was a bit surly, but I was just mindful of

00:43:32.060 just don't do too much damage tonight.

00:43:35.660 All right.

00:43:36.160 And even, and part of it's a stoic thing too, I believe, and I'm getting much more interested

00:43:42.920 in this sort of stoic movement.

00:43:45.160 And during COVID, you know, when COVID hit in Australia, like my job is I get large groups

00:43:52.160 of people in a room, sit them really close together, get them to interact, you know, not

00:43:57.700 a great business model for a pandemic.

00:44:01.240 So when COVID hit and I saw all these, you know, bookings being put on hold, I freaked

00:44:08.520 out, like properly freaked out.

00:44:12.300 I'm thinking, how do I pay my staff?

00:44:14.400 How do I survive?

00:44:15.520 How do I pay the home loan?

00:44:17.420 And I was a terrible version of myself in the home.

00:44:22.220 But I just kept saying to myself, I know you're not happy, but you just got to suck it up and

00:44:27.100 you've got to be stoic and you've got to be the bigger person.

00:44:29.620 And you just got to not do too much damage right now.

00:44:34.080 And yeah, you're not going to walk in high-fiving people because you're in distress, but it's

00:44:40.880 like, you've got a bigger role here is you're a dad and you're a husband and you just got

00:44:45.940 to be a bit stoic and accept that you're going through a lot of trauma right now, but you're

00:44:52.320 not going to use it as an excuse to throw the toys out of the cot and just be inappropriate

00:44:58.520 in the home.

00:45:00.140 So yeah, like part of it is also recognizing we're human and, you know, it's not all bells

00:45:05.800 and whistles.

00:45:07.100 So you mentioned COVID, which forced a lot of people to work from home.

00:45:10.360 A lot of people are still working from home and you no longer have a third space.

00:45:15.300 There's no commute.

00:45:16.140 So any advice there that you found useful for people who work from home to make transitions

00:45:20.540 from work mode to home mode?

00:45:24.220 Yeah.

00:45:24.960 And Brett, like I got more emails about this concept during lockdown than ever.

00:45:31.160 And what people said is, gosh, I thought this concept was important when I had a transition.

00:45:37.160 Now I'm working from home.

00:45:38.700 It's 10 times more important.

00:45:40.260 Because what we found is when people work from home, particularly people that lived on 0.98

00:45:44.040 their own, their work hours blow out and they never shift gears from work to personal.

00:45:51.460 And what happens is they stay in this kind of state where they're consistently doing both.

00:45:56.600 So the same rule applies.

00:45:58.700 Like what's your transition into work?

00:46:00.820 What's your transition out of work?

00:46:02.500 And, you know, it can be as extreme as like one guy said, now I work from home full time.

00:46:09.380 He said, I drive to a coffee shop in the morning.

00:46:11.800 He said, I get a coffee.

00:46:13.520 I drive home.

00:46:14.620 And as I walk through the door, I reset and go, okay, you're at work now.

00:46:19.480 Like you're actually at work.

00:46:21.160 You're not at home.

00:46:22.280 And I shift into like work mode.

00:46:24.940 And he said, at the end of the day, I don't need more caffeine, but I drive to a park.

00:46:29.480 He said, I put a podcast on and I do a 30 minute walk around the park.

00:46:33.520 I'm active.

00:46:34.160 I'm in nature.

00:46:34.980 I'm listening to something I'm interested in.

00:46:37.280 He said, and then when I transition home, I go, I'm in dad mode or I'm in partner mode.

00:46:42.800 And actually we had one guy email me.

00:46:45.940 He was a quite senior executive.

00:46:47.760 And he said, homeschooling is the most brutal thing I've ever done.

00:46:53.220 And he said, the first week of homeschooling, it was just fights, arguments.

00:46:57.040 It's, you know, my sons are getting into fist fights, you know, like it's, he said, it's

00:47:01.440 chaos.

00:47:02.340 And he said, I actually thought about your concept.

00:47:05.480 And the next week, and this is pretty extreme.

00:47:08.520 He said, I got the kids up and my wife who also has a really big, powerful role.

00:47:14.700 I said, all right, after we eat breakfast, we're getting dressed for work and you're putting

00:47:18.980 your school uniform on.

00:47:20.560 And the kids are like, what are you doing, dad?

00:47:22.180 And he goes, you just got to do it.

00:47:24.660 And he said, we, we got dressed for work.

00:47:27.500 We walked around the block and he said to the kids, I want you to think about that you're

00:47:32.280 at school right now.

00:47:34.440 And he said, we went in, they did schoolwork online.

00:47:38.340 We, you know, my wife and I went to separate offices.

00:47:40.680 And he said, at the end of the day, we walked around the block and we came back in the house

00:47:45.440 and we're like, okay, now we're a family.

00:47:47.980 Okay.

00:47:48.440 And we got dressed for, you know, when we're at home.

00:47:51.820 And he said, look, obviously because of the reduced hours, my wife and I had to do work

00:47:55.820 of an evening, but he said it totally transformed the interaction.

00:48:00.220 You know, the kids were much more focused.

00:48:01.900 The kids were much more engaged.

00:48:03.980 And he said, we had more control over the situation.

00:48:06.740 So yeah, I mean, COVID has popped up so many funny stories about how people are transitioning,

00:48:12.280 but we, we need the commute.

00:48:14.280 You've got to, you've got to manufacture one and find out what works for you.

00:48:18.920 So one thing as I was reading, as I was talking to my wife about this idea of the third space,

00:48:23.760 she's talking about what about the transition from home to vacation and vacation to home?

00:48:29.400 So that's kind of interesting because there's a third space there.

00:48:31.680 And I think there can be a problem where when you're transitioning from home to vacation

00:48:35.660 or work to vacation, you bring work to the vacation.

00:48:38.800 And then like also transitioning back from vacation to regular life.

00:48:43.700 If you're not thoughtful about it, you can have, it can cause some sputters.

00:48:46.700 Have you had any experience with that personally, or even just working with

00:48:49.920 people that you've interviewed?

00:48:52.720 The vacation research is really starting to ramp up looking at, well, how do you have

00:48:58.000 a vacation where you actually refresh yourself?

00:49:03.240 And what they showed is on vacations work is the worst thing you can possibly do.

00:49:08.880 Like when you work, you reduce your recovery of that break dramatically.

00:49:13.440 So even if it's a couple of emails, it still brings you out of that relaxed state.

00:49:20.220 So if work is going to creep up, or if you know there's things you've got to do on your

00:49:24.880 vacation, you're better off chunking them into like the start or towards the end of it,

00:49:31.040 where you know, hey, I'm going to insert these things to, so just that it's not spluttered

00:49:36.660 throughout.

00:49:37.040 So in terms of vacations, definitely do that.

00:49:41.440 In terms of transitioning in and out of a vacation, yeah, that's super interesting.

00:49:46.280 We don't have a lot of research that we've done on that, but what we know is just trying

00:49:52.320 to mentally prepare yourself for the vacation.

00:49:56.980 And one thing that has come up is people who say, yeah, I practice the third space every

00:50:02.060 day, they said to us, my vacations are more restorative.

00:50:07.520 And what they talked about is, of course, I've practiced turning off from work at the

00:50:11.400 end of the day.

00:50:12.220 I'm just better at doing that when I stop work and I go on the holiday.

00:50:17.840 So it's, you know, you beautifully pointed it out.

00:50:21.180 The same rule applies.

00:50:22.620 Like how am I going to transition into this holiday?

00:50:26.680 And also how am I going to prepare myself for the, the come down and the sadness about

00:50:32.700 transitioning back into work?

00:50:35.320 And this is something we've got to think about and look at how do we do this more effectively?

00:50:41.320 And I like how you said that this idea of creating third spaces for yourself, this is

00:50:45.260 a skill that you have to practice.

00:50:46.720 This isn't something that you can just implement, you know, starting tomorrow and you're going

00:50:50.820 to be awesome at it.

00:50:51.740 You could see improvements right away, but you're going to have lots of setbacks along

00:50:56.460 the way.

00:50:56.840 And you just have to remind yourself, this is a skill that I'm practicing.

00:50:59.460 I'm going to get better the more I do it.

00:51:01.160 And then the more I do it, I can apply it not only to work and family life, but also vacations

00:51:06.600 and transitions that we have in other parts of our lives as well.

00:51:10.840 Yep.

00:51:11.440 And, and just to give you an example of that, you know, recently, not, not recently, this

00:51:17.340 is a few years ago, we found out someone was kind of ripping us off a little bit.

00:51:22.120 So I had to have a very hard conversation with a group who was doing something wrong

00:51:26.100 and I had to bring it up and I had to talk, like you talk about hard conversations.

00:51:30.920 This is one of the hardest I've ever done.

00:51:33.380 And it was my turn to pick up the kids.

00:51:35.900 So I went and picked up the kids.

00:51:37.260 My wife came home from work much later on and she walked in and went, oh man, I thought

00:51:42.740 I was going to find like this angry tyrant after the conversation you'd had, because

00:51:49.420 you know, like, I know that was going to take a lot from you.

00:51:53.040 And she said, I just can't believe how like chilled out you are.

00:51:55.860 And I said, well, you know, I've been practicing this thing for a long time.

00:51:59.200 Like I've got good at it.

00:52:00.840 And that was when I kind of went, oh yeah, this is skill-based and this is something that

00:52:06.240 we can get better at.

00:52:08.160 So, you know, even in an extreme example like that, what I found is it was very effective.

00:52:12.740 To not let me really take out that difficult, frustrating interaction on my family life.

00:52:22.000 Well, Adam, this has been a great conversation.

00:52:23.520 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:52:26.840 Well, dradamfraser.com is in dradamfraser.com is my website.

00:52:32.160 That's probably the best site to go to.

00:52:35.140 You know, there we have lots of information, lots of articles, reports on our research, as

00:52:39.960 well as the book and, you know, some videos about this concept.

00:52:44.160 But yeah, I mean, feel free to reach out.

00:52:46.180 This is something I'm incredibly passionate about.

00:52:48.800 Yeah, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

00:52:50.600 And this conversation actually has reminded me of how much I love this concept, how much,

00:52:56.120 how important it is and, you know, how kind of lucky I was to stumble across a few interactions

00:53:02.660 that pointed me in this direction of research.

00:53:05.060 Well, dradamfraser, thanks for your time.

00:53:07.160 It's been a pleasure.

00:53:08.300 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:53:10.260 My guest today is dradamfraser.

00:53:11.860 He's the author of the book, The Third Space.

00:53:13.940 You can learn more information about his work and the book at his website, dradamfraser.com.

00:53:18.320 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash third space.

00:53:21.460 We find links to resources where we can delve deeper into this topic.

00:53:23.960 We'll see you next week.

00:53:53.960 And until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to listen to the podcast, but put what

00:53:58.040 you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - July 05, 2023

Master Microtransitions to Improve the Happiness, Success, and Flow of Your Life

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