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00:01:01.280one more time shopify.com slash manliness brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the
00:01:08.520aom podcast which since 2008 has featured conversations with the world's best authors
00:01:12.920thinkers and leaders that glean their edifying life-improving insights without the fluff and
00:01:18.000filler the aom podcast is just one part of the mckay mission to help individuals practice timeless
00:01:22.520virtues through thought, word, and deed. Also, be sure to explore our articles in
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00:01:34.060Strenuous Life program at StrenuousLife.com. Now on to the show.
00:01:45.620We usually think of money as something very practical, concrete, and secular. We
00:01:50.000earn it, save it, spend it, and crunch the numbers behind it. But money is never just
00:01:54.940about money. It reflects our values, our priorities, and even our spiritual life.
00:02:00.000My guest today, Tom Levinson, knows this well. He's a financial advisor who studied religion
00:02:04.600at Harvard Divinity School and thought about becoming a rabbi. Now, he helps people navigate
00:02:08.960not just their portfolios, but the deeper questions that come with them. In today's
00:02:13.000conversation, Tom shares the greater meaning around money, what the Jewish, Christian,
00:02:17.360and Islamic religions say about it, and how financial practices like budgeting can be
00:02:21.260spiritual disciplines. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash meaning and
00:02:26.140money. All right, Tom Levinson, welcome to the show. Brad, thanks so much. Happy to be here.
00:02:43.200So you've got an interesting background. You are a financial advisor, but during your academic life, you studied religion. You even got your master's in theologic studies at Harvard Divinity School. Why did you study religion? Did you come from a religious family?
00:02:58.060No, I did not. I am a very unlikely religion nerd. You know, I grew up in New York City. My family, growing up, was not interested in religion at all. I would even say, not that my family was antagonistic to religion, but people were a-religious and they didn't feel like there was any relevance in our religious and spiritual traditions.
00:03:25.260So, you know, I celebrated a bar mitzvah.
00:03:28.520That was a little bit of a rite of passage for kids growing up in New York at the time.
00:03:32.680And then I just assumed I would say goodbye to religious life once I was done with my bar mitzvah party.
00:03:41.020And, you know, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
00:03:45.440Because, you know, I ended up taking a class, a religion class, in my 12th grade year of high school.
00:03:51.220And it was basically a sort of comparative religion, history of religions class. And the teacher was a wonderful guy who was a seminary graduate and just loved talking about and chopping it up about religion and spirituality.
00:04:05.820And, you know, I found myself getting really energized by the subject matter and, you know, whether he was talking about the Buddha or whether he was talking about the pilgrimage to Mecca or whether he was talking about the life of Jesus.
00:04:20.380I was like, wow, there is a lot here, and I had overlooked so much of it.
00:04:25.980So, you know, that was really the beginning of my, you know, finding a lot of delight and pleasure and even wonder in learning about different religious traditions.
00:04:37.380When you were at Harvard Divinity School, did you think about pursuing a religious vocation?
00:04:45.480I think by the end of my time in div school, I was thinking pretty seriously about becoming a rabbi, and that didn't happen for a number of reasons.
00:04:56.840But the learning I was doing, the relationships I was building, and the kind of inspiration I was finding definitely had me leaning toward a life and life choices where religion was going to be really important in just the way I moved through the world.
00:05:14.000So you did some interesting things while you were at Harvard Divinity School, including leading a discussion group at a pretty tough prison. Why did you get involved with that?
00:05:22.320Yeah, I went down every Thursday night to a maximum security prison in Bridgewater, Mass. And, you know, I had gone to Divinity School, like really excited and energized to learn about religion. And I found that what I was learning in the classroom, while interesting and sometimes illuminating, what I really was hungry for was learning more about, you know,
00:05:44.000you know, why do people believe? What makes people believe? And really curious about the
00:05:50.320kind of diversity and variety of religious experiences. And, you know, I found this
00:05:57.300volunteer opportunity. And I have to say, like, that became my most important classroom when I
00:06:04.360was at Harvard Divinity School was the time I spent in this study group. The group was led by
00:06:09.800somebody who'd been imprisoned for 20 plus years. And, you know, he was not a religious person per
00:06:17.820se, but he was a deeply thoughtful, philosophically inclined person. And so, you know, one of the
00:06:24.760things we would do is, you know, he would bring reading material in and a lot of what he was
00:06:29.660gravitating toward was, you know, the Stoics and, you know, how do you make sense of the world as
00:06:36.580it is, and how do you continue to engage it productively and thoughtfully. And so, you know,
00:06:43.380there were men in that group who were Muslim, there were men in that group who were Christian,
00:06:48.020there were men in that group who were, you know, agnostics. But I found a sense of just deep
00:06:55.320meaning and community in the conversations we had. So it was an eye-opening and illuminating
00:07:01.720experience. I mean, what did you learn about spirituality from that experience that's
00:07:05.760shape the way you think about spirituality? Yeah, that's a great question. You know,
00:07:10.080I'm a big, big fan and student of the great 20th century Jewish writer and teacher and sage Martin
00:07:19.300Buber. And one of Buber's most famous works is a book called I Am Thou. And I Am Thou is really
00:07:27.200a meditation on where do we find the divine. And part of Buber's thinking and hypothesis was that
00:07:37.640we find the divine in the space between each other. And dialogue is a place, dialogue between
00:07:45.180and among people is a place where we can have deep and searching spiritual encounters. And
00:07:52.960that was really something I took away. I mean, I'd had this kind of hypothesis that
00:07:57.080conversation about religion and spirituality would be personally enriching. But I didn't
00:08:03.720realize that I would find the spirit in those in-between spaces. And that has really informed
00:08:09.460so much of my spiritual practice and religious life moving forward.
00:08:14.840Another project you worked on while you were in Divinity School is a book that you wrote. It's
00:08:18.740called All That's Holy, A Young Guy, an Old Car, and the Search for God in America. And the book
00:08:23.760is based on a road trip you took around the country to talk to regular everyday people
00:08:29.120in America about spirituality. Why did you decide to do this project?
00:08:33.600Well, I got the idea while I was in divinity school. And when I graduated, I set out on the
00:08:38.840road to do this. And, you know, it came like a, it was like a brainstorm. And it was a flash of
00:08:45.620What I took as insight, my experience in the prison in conversation with these men in there was impactful enough for me that I was like, well, if I'm learning so much and growing so much in conversation with people learning about their spiritual lives and priorities and commitments, you know, what would it look like to do that on a broader canvas?
00:09:11.240and you know talking to people really became my sort of chosen curriculum and had a wonderful
00:09:19.560teacher and advisor and mentor harvey cox at harvard div school and i brought this idea to
00:09:25.740him i was like hey i want to get in my my nissan ultima and i want to drive around the country and
00:09:30.180i want to talk to people i'll bring a microphone i'll bring a camera is that the craziest idea
00:09:35.600And he was like, man, do it. So I did it and met so many wonderful people and learned a ton both about them and, you know, at least as importantly about me.
00:09:48.460What type of people did you talk to that ended up in the book?
00:09:51.660Oh, I mean, it was all across the map. I mean, I talked to, you know, basically any religious tradition you can think of.
00:09:59.420I've found folks. And a lot of it was finding people serendipitously. So, you know, a Muslim
00:10:05.380shopkeeper in Dayton, Ohio was the first person I talked to. Pentecostal preachers in Northern
00:10:10.780California, Buddhists, you know, Orthodox Jews, people who had converted to Orthodox Judaism,
00:10:17.580you know, Mormons, missionaries, and everybody in between. You know, it's such a diverse
00:10:23.520religious landscape in America. And, you know, I was fortunate to get to experience a lot of it.
00:10:29.420How did that trip and writing the book
00:10:32.040influence your relationship with your own faith tradition?
00:10:36.000You know, part of what I'm sort of working through
00:10:38.260on that trip is what role is religion,
00:10:41.360what role is spiritual life going to have
00:10:58.440Is this really how I want to spend my time?
00:11:02.100And again, I didn't end up becoming a rabbi, but I think that process of wrestling out loud with people, bringing your questions, bringing the things you're really curious about, bringing the things you're struggling with, that is core to how I engage my own Jewish learning and Jewish practice.
00:11:22.800And that's part of why I love interfaith conversations is because I'm learning so much
00:11:28.300about other people and what they tell me about them is also informing me about me.
00:11:34.240So how did you go from divinity student to financial advisory, helping people manage
00:11:44.860You know, so I graduated from divinity school.
00:11:48.120I thought really seriously about becoming a rabbi.
00:11:50.540And then I have spent almost 25 years in the business world.
00:11:55.320And a lot of people, when I'm meeting them for the first time, ask, how do you square that circle, Tom?
00:12:02.020And part of how I answer that question is that when I have conversations with people about money, the conversations are always about more than money.
00:12:11.520They're about their hopes and dreams and aspirations. And they are about their fears and anxieties and insecurities. And, you know, so my work as a financial advisor, you know, I play the role of educator. I play the role of, you know, sort of celebrate acknowledging and celebrating life milestone events.
00:12:35.340There's also a lot of pastoral care. It's sort of in the process of having, you know, difficult, challenging questions with people. And, you know, when I sort of like pull the camera back and look at it, work as a financial advisor, if you're doing it in this kind of hopefully intelligent and thoughtful and open and honest way, it has so many commonalities with work as a rabbi.
00:13:03.940You're dealing with like so much of human experience and so much of how people are wrestling with it and you get to have a front row seat in that. So, you know, it might be counterintuitive, but I really think of div school being honestly just incredible preparation for work and helping people navigate their financial lives thoughtfully.
00:13:27.860Yeah, I think that's true that when you're talking about money, you're talking about more than just money. You know, I have a financial advisor. He manages my retirement portfolio. And whenever I have conversations with him, it's pretty much like, okay, we're doing this. Here's the mix of stocks and bonds we've got going.
00:13:44.700But sometimes I think it'd be really useful to talk to this guy about, like, what are my hopes? What are my values? Because in the background, I'm having those conversations with my wife about like, what do we want our future to look like? And I think it'd be useful to have a financial advisor who can help you with the brass tacks stuff, but also help you sort through that psychological, spiritual stuff that lies behind those money decisions.
00:14:06.920Totally. Yeah, I mean, I completely hear you. And I think there's a lot of appetite out there
00:14:12.660among people for whom, you know, money is like how we use our money, how we think about it,
00:14:21.340how we spend it, how we invest it. You know, it's so deeply interconnected with our core values.
00:14:29.020And I think sometimes our culture teaches, especially our economic and financial culture teaches that, you know, sort of money is over here in one sphere and our core values and spiritual lives and religious commitments are over here in another sphere.
00:14:47.300And I think that's a hugely lost opportunity because people want to be figuring out how do I align my money with my deeply held values.
00:14:59.000And I think conversations like this and an ongoing, it's not a one-off, it's an ongoing conversation.
00:15:05.320It can be really impactful and energizing for people.
00:15:10.000So you have a podcast called Money Meet Meaning.
00:18:24.100It's, you know, the same, just as it's true for us, so it was true for people living, you know, 2,000 years ago, 2,500 years ago, like, that the conversations about money are, like, there are, of course, new subtleties and contours to them, but in some respects, there's not that much new under the sun.
00:18:45.460No, there isn't. That's Ecclesiastes. Nothing new under the sun.
00:18:48.820You know what? I'm glad you brought him up. I'm excited to get to Ecclesiastes at some point,
00:18:53.840but I'm glad you brought him up. Well, maybe we'll bring it up now. Let's talk about the
00:18:57.940specific ways different religious traditions talk about money. Let's start off with your own faith
00:19:01.700tradition, Judaism. What does Judaism say about money? And maybe we can talk about Ecclesiastes
00:19:06.960there because he talks a lot about that. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're going
00:19:10.960to talk about Judaism and money, you got to bring up Ecclesiastes. So here's what I would say,0.87
00:19:15.720Brett I mean I think first and foremost like what I'm going to say about you like this is just the
00:19:22.960tip of the iceberg right and I am a practitioner I am a student I'm not a rabbi I'm not a scholar
00:19:30.140of this so you know let's take this as the opening of the conversation and not the end of it but
00:19:36.000you know if I think about Judaism and money you know I love I love the book of Deuteronomy there's
00:19:44.640so much to it. And, you know, one of the things, one of the like central injunctions that Moses
00:19:53.020delivers to the assembled biblical Hebrews in Deuteronomy is, you know, right after saying
00:20:00.600the Lord, our God is one, Moses says, this is Deuteronomy six for anybody keeping score at home.
00:20:06.380This is Deuteronomy six, you know, but one of the things Moses says is you shall love the Lord,
00:20:13.280your God with all your heart, with all your being, and all your might. And, you know, that's probably
00:20:20.340like memorized by lots of us across different religious traditions. But the towering medieval
00:20:27.840Jewish writer, commentator, rabbi, sage, Rashi, in doing this interpretation of the Torah,
00:20:35.500he looks at that verse and he says, okay, what does Moses mean when he talks about might?
00:21:57.120So what are the rabbinic sages, Talmudic sages talking about when they say that? They're saying first and foremost, spiritual life requires that people's material needs be met in a baseline way.
00:22:11.160Like, if you're hungry for bread, it's going to be very difficult to focus on, you know, higher things.
00:22:19.680And at the same time, if you're only focused on material things, it's going to be, you need a roadmap, we need a roadmap, we need guardrails, and so, you know, without Torah, there's no flour.
00:22:35.260The idea there is that if left to our own devices, humans are going to think that there are no guardrails and what they need to do is keep accumulating, keep accumulating.
00:22:46.040And, you know, part of what the Talmud is teaching us there is the precepts and prescriptions that we get from Jewish teaching and Jewish wisdom helps control our impulses in important and significant and life-affirming and community-affirming ways.
00:23:07.000So, you know, this is an interplay that Jewish teachers have been wrestling with forever.
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00:27:58.080And now back to the show. Another thing I've seen throughout the Hebrew Bible as I've read it
00:28:03.800over the years, a theme that comes up that I think is related to money is the idea of idolatry.
00:28:09.960Yeah. Since Moses, you know, Moses was up in Mount Sinai and his brother Aaron
00:28:14.400got up to some shenanigans, made the golden calf. And then throughout the rest of the Hebrew Bible,
00:28:20.600the Old Testament, these prophets appear because idolatry is on the scene, like Amos. And they're
00:28:26.080like, you guys, what is going on here? What do you think the Hebrew conception of idolatry can0.98
00:28:31.360teach us about our relationship to money? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, if you read the0.94
00:28:37.700Ten Commandments, whether it's in Exodus or whether it's in Deuteronomy, baked into the
00:28:42.420Ten Commandments is a kind of like mini roadmap about financial life. So one of the Ten Commandments
00:28:50.580is about you shall work, but you shall also rest. So Shabbat, the Sabbath is built in, you know,
00:28:56.980don't steal, don't covet. That's a really interesting one. That's not about action.
00:29:01.400That's about intention and our attitude toward money. And of course, like the prohibition on
00:29:06.860idol worship and idolatry, you know, I think Judaism takes really seriously the prospect that0.93
00:29:14.300money is something that can rise to the level without appropriate, again, I'm going to use the0.94
00:29:22.040word guardrails. Money can rise to the level of a kind of godly state. We can put it on that kind
00:29:29.600of pedestal. And I think Judaism is really keenly aware of those challenges. You know, part of the
00:29:37.200Jewish perspective on money is that there is a lot of concern and anxiety baked into that
00:29:44.500relationship. So, you know, back to Deuteronomy, you see that with Moses, you know, hey, looking
00:29:50.220ahead when we cross the Jordan River, like this community is going to be comfortable. This
00:29:55.820community is going to have homes. This community is going to be settled, not going to be wandering
00:30:00.460in the wilderness forever. And with affluence, with affluence and with comfort, like Moses is
00:30:07.340expressing this really deep anxiousness about how will you behave? How will your relationship with
00:30:12.860God change when you think like all of what you've achieved is your own doing? So I think that's one
00:30:20.120that's one really interesting piece of how Jews have wrestled over the the millennia with this
00:30:25.840question of, you know, affluence and wealth and spiritual commitment. And then, you know,
00:30:30.960getting back to Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiastes, for people who haven't read it, you got to go back
00:30:36.160and read Ecclesiastes. It is so timely and current. And part of what Ecclesiastes is saying is like,
00:30:44.220hey, this is like first person narrative. And it's very talk about confessional. My gosh,
00:30:50.340Like, this is a person who has achieved everything that we could possibly aspire to.
00:30:57.620Incredible worldly success, you know, running things, governance, you know, anything that this particular narrator has wanted, he's accomplished.
00:31:08.600And yet at the same time, he feels this emptiness and this sense that, you know, all is vanity.
00:31:14.840And that striving after these things is also vanity.
00:31:18.220So look, the Hebrew Bible, I guess all scriptures, from my perspective, all scriptures are a curation of content. And there's a lot of stuff that ends up on the cutting room floor.
00:31:31.040But what's, I think, really illuminating and telling about what ends up in the scriptures is that this is something that the ancient curators, whoever they were, were really interested in having future generations consider and wrestle with.
00:31:51.700Yeah, so I think the idea is just money's important, but you got to keep it in its proper place.
00:32:00.280are there any practices from Judaism that you think people from any faith tradition or any
00:32:06.300background could apply in their lives in relationship to their money? Yeah, I mean,
00:32:10.980yes, for sure. I mean, you know, at the center of Jewish teaching and Jews relationship with money0.99
00:32:17.180is this concept of tzedakah. Tzedakah, you know, I think is often translated as charity,
00:32:22.760but it comes from the root tzedek and tzedek really means justice. And so, you know, there's
00:32:29.820this like just deep connection between the work of, you know, our, our charitable contributions
00:32:37.160actually being something that makes for a more just world and helps us repair the world. So I
00:32:42.880think, you know, just that lens, that frame can be really important and certainly is meaningful
00:32:48.440for me. Yeah. I think another one, Shabbat, it's the Sabbath, just taking a day off where you don't
00:32:53.320work and you learn to be comfortable feeling like you've, you have value, like you've got worth
00:32:58.980outside of being a producer, you know, re re-embracing yourself as a human being, not just
00:33:04.440as a human doing, you know, like, you know, not being anxious about doing stuff that doesn't have
00:33:09.160immediate concrete ROI. That's not productive. And it's taking time to think about and do
00:33:14.460higher, more meaningful things. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, Shabbat, you know,
00:33:19.920we have celebrated and observed Shabbat for as a family for, I mean, 25 years, something like that.
00:33:27.500And, you know, it is such an important grounding, anchoring practice, no matter what's going on in your life.
00:33:35.660You know, you go back to the first couple, the first chapter or two of Genesis, you know, each day God's creating the world and God looks at the world after after each day of creation.
00:33:45.500And God says, it's good. The creation is good.
00:33:48.820And you get to the end of the sixth day, and God looks at the world and God says, what I've created is not just good, it's exceedingly good. Now, it's not perfect, but it's exceedingly good. And just as God models how to work creatively in the world, God also is modeling why it's important to rest, both to appreciate what exists and also to recognize that we're not slaves to work.
00:34:16.020we are liberated in some way from enslavement.
00:34:20.480All right, let's talk about Christianity.
00:35:14.280You know, first and foremost, money is complex. And so the range of topics that Jesus is covering and the breadth of people that he's talking to about this in and of itself, I think, informs us that, wow, there's just like such a diversity of experience in our financial lives.
00:35:35.460Of course, you know, Jesus is teaching and preaching and practicing as a Jew.
00:35:42.220And so like these teachings are umbilically linked to Jewish teachings in, you know, both in their focus and in their concerns.0.60
00:35:49.900And I mean, you know, one of the things that comes up when I'm thinking about Jesus's teachings is he's really like laser focused on the spiritual perils of wealth.0.56
00:36:01.760And I think, importantly, wealth accumulation. You referenced it, Brett, but this dictum that
00:36:09.000you can't serve both money and mammon in Matthew, and that if you serve mammon,
00:36:14.280it's a form of idolatry. So that's straight out of the Gospels. Of course, the rich man and the
00:36:19.960eye of the needle, that's a really complex piece of scripture. One of my favorite teachings from
00:36:26.420the Christian tradition is in 1 Timothy 6. And there's this profound misunderstanding about the
00:36:33.980verse. I'm sure you and many in your audience know where I'm going with this, but a lot of times
00:36:39.540people think the language is money is the root of all evil. But that's not the verse. The verse
00:36:46.760that presumably Paul is writing this, but the verse is really the love of money is a root of
00:36:54.820all kinds of evil. So it's not making a declarative statement about the evils of money.
00:37:01.420No, no, no. Money is neutral. The question is, how do we use it? And the excessive love of money
00:37:08.380is what Paul and of course, Jesus is warning us about. That to me is really powerful. And I think
00:37:15.300Jesus is really, you might've even mentioned this already, Brett, but like, you know, Jesus is
00:37:19.640really focus on, you know, what are your priorities? What is your focus? What are your
00:37:26.060points of emphasis in the life you live? And how do you keep money in a place of perspective and
00:37:33.500balance and not let it overwhelm all these other really important domains of our lives? So yeah,
00:37:41.240those are some initial thoughts. Yeah, what I think I hear you saying is that in the Christian
00:37:46.160tradition, money in and of itself is not bad. It's all about your relationship to money. And0.93
00:37:53.840maybe that idea can help us square some of Jesus's diverse teachings about it because he's addressing
00:38:00.980the different ways that money can become a problem for people. So, you know, for that rich young
00:38:06.100ruler where Jesus said, you got to sell all your stuff. Well, that's what he needed to do because
00:38:11.060he loved his stuff so much. Like that was his stumbling block to faith. I mean, cause he was
00:38:15.480doing everything else right, but he still loved his money more than God. And then with the parable
00:38:20.300of the talents where that one guy gets his one talent taken away, he had like a too fearful
00:38:25.800of a relationship with money. He was so cautious, but in a way that shows a lack of trust in God.
00:38:32.200And that keeps him from being, you know, fruitful and expansive. So even being too fearful about
00:38:38.540money still allows your relationship with money to dominate you in an unhealthy way.
00:38:44.080That's right. And I think, you know, Jesus is offering such personalized, really customized teaching to everybody he's interacting with. I mean, that's one of the reasons he's so inspiring to me. But, you know, you look at that parable about the widow's might in, I think it's in Mark.
00:39:02.720And part of what he's doing is that this poor woman offers this like tiny gift as a charitable
00:39:11.120contribution, maybe as tzedakah. And Jesus is like, you see what she did? Like, that is the
00:39:17.960model. Even though she's not giving vast amounts, she's giving from the heart and she's giving0.88
00:39:23.500something that's meaningful and impactful for her. And Jesus definitely wants to shine a spotlight
00:39:29.260on that kind of relationship to money.1.00
00:39:56.780So, you know, he grew up poor, was working class, and what he did in his work is that he would guide caravans across the desert.
00:40:06.480And he did it with such responsibility and such integrity and such diligence that actually his wife, Khadija, who is a wealthy person, proposed to Muhammad because of the character traits that he exhibited in his business life.
00:40:29.200So that in and of itself tells us that there's something really, really powerful about how we conduct our business with honesty and integrity. There's another, I think, really important principle in Islamic teaching that, you know, there's no voluntary poverty in Islam. So living a comfortable life, that's okay. But hoarding? No, no, no, no, no, no. No, that's not okay.
00:40:55.880So yet again, we're seeing a religious tradition that's focused on finding a balance in our life with money. And from a sort of communal perspective, one of the things that I find really, really inspiring about Islam's relationship to the economy and to money is that, you know, meeting people's baseline basic needs is more important than maximizing individual wants.
00:41:49.280He makes a market because all of these different tribes have an opportunity to come to the market. And even though they've been, you know, arguing with each other and fighting each other and killing each other over lots of different things prior to Muhammad building this market, when they come to the market, they're interacting and exchanging goods and services, building relationships, getting to know one another.0.67
00:42:14.560And so you see that a marketplace is actually a platform for building community.
00:42:21.880So I think that's, I mean, not to editorialize too much, but that's a pretty extraordinary example from Islam.
00:42:29.660And the one other thing I would say is just like when you're talking about Islam, you know, there are some central pillars of the faith.
00:42:36.040And living a conscientious life with money is like at the center of these pillars.
00:42:42.120So, you know, one of the pillars is zakat, which is charity, being generous, like that is just a core principle and a threshold part of being a Muslim.
00:42:53.600And then, you know, fasting during Ramadan has a lot of intersection with life with money because part of why Muslims fast is that they're showing empathy for the poor and they are experiencing hunger every year, every Muslim in a way that helps them better understand human needs and human needs.
00:43:18.440And to sort of recommit, rededicate themselves to being charitable, to being generous, and to making sure that, you know, ideally we live in a world where no one is in need like that.
00:43:29.840So I think what's interesting is that the beliefs of these three faiths are very different in many ways, yet there seems to be some definite similarities in how they approach money.
00:43:39.480You know, for all three, there's this thread that, okay, money is important for well-being.
00:43:45.080It can be a positive tool, but you got to keep it in a healthy balance in your life.
00:43:49.620Don't let it dominate your priorities.
00:43:52.220Don't become so consumed by it that you stop caring about other people.
00:44:04.860Are there any concrete financial practices that you think people can use to turn the
00:44:11.660broad principles of their faith into action?
00:44:13.880Like, are there financial practices that could be turned into spiritual disciplines?
00:44:19.260So one thing that comes to mind, Brett, is there's a gentleman, and I think he's been a guest on your podcast, Jesse Mecham, who founded You Need a Budget.
00:44:41.820And, you know, part of what he talks about in budgeting, I mean, and he's coming from a deep values perspective, is that budgeting is an exercise for both intention and attention.
00:44:57.880So, you know, focusing on budgeting, how we spend our money, how we save our money, like that's a discipline and that's a kind of mindfulness practice.
00:45:06.920So, you know, that's really interesting. I would definitely encourage people to check out You Need a Budget because there's a lot of wise and practical guidance on there. I also think, you know, people struggle a lot with how to use their money in the world. How do you invest it? How do you spend it? And I am a big believer that, look, this is not always possible.
00:45:29.840but to the extent it's possible, you know, aligning your spending with your values is
00:45:35.720really important. Like what kind of world do we want to be living in? For me, like my wife and I
00:45:42.100get into a back and forth. This is an ongoing thing about, this is an ongoing conversation
00:45:49.260about how often to use Amazon. And, you know, we have, we are blessed to live in a neighborhood
00:45:55.820where we have all kinds of wonderful local places.
00:49:43.280It's like we're introducing money and meaning.
00:49:45.360And then you can, you know, if anybody wants to like talk a little bit further or engage in the subject a little bit further, you know, I'm happy to.
00:49:53.380You can send an email to info at moneymeetmeaning.com and we can take it from there.
00:50:00.840Fantastic. Well, Tom Levinson, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.