Money and Meaning — What Faith Traditions Teach Us About Personal Finance
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Summary
Tom Levinson is a financial advisor who studied religion at Harvard Divinity School and thought about becoming a rabbi. Now he helps people navigate not just their portfolios, but the deeper questions that come with them. In this episode, he shares the greater meaning around money, what the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic religions say about it, and how financial practices like budgeting can be spiritual disciplines.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast, which since 2008 has featured
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We usually think of money as something very practical, concrete, and secular.
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We earn it, save it, spend it, and crunch the numbers behind it.
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It reflects our values, our priorities, and even our spiritual life.
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He's a financial advisor who studied religion at Harvard Divinity School and thought about
00:02:13.300
Now, he helps people navigate not just their portfolios, but the deeper questions that
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In today's conversation, Tom shares the greater meaning around money, what the Jewish, Christian,
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and Islamic religions say about it, and how financial practices like budgeting can be spiritual
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash meaningandmoney.
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You are a financial advisor, but during your academic life, you studied religion.
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You even got your master's in theologic studies at Harvard Divinity School.
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My family, growing up, was not interested in religion at all.
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I would even say, not that my family was antagonistic to religion, but people were areligious,
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and they didn't feel like there was any relevance in our religious and spiritual traditions.
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That was a little bit of a rite of passage for kids growing up in New York at the time.
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And then I just assumed I would say goodbye to religious life once I was done with my bar
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And, you know, the Lord works in mysterious ways because, you know, I ended up taking
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a class, a religion class in my 12th grade year of high school, and it was basically a
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sort of comparative religion, history of religions class.
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And the teacher was a wonderful guy who was a seminary graduate and just loved talking about
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and chopping it up about religion and spirituality.
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And, you know, I found myself getting really energized by the subject matter.
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And, you know, whether he was talking about the Buddha or whether he was talking about
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the pilgrimage to Mecca or whether he was talking about the life of Jesus, I was like,
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So, you know, that was really the beginning of my, you know, finding a lot of delight and
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pleasure and even wonder in learning about different religious traditions.
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When you were at Harvard Divinity School, did you think about pursuing a religious vocation?
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I think by the end of my time in div school, I was thinking pretty seriously about becoming
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And that didn't happen for a number of reasons, but the learning I was doing, the relationships
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I was building, and the kind of, you know, inspiration I was finding definitely had me
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leaning toward a life and life choices where religion was going to be really important in
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So you did some interesting things while you were at Harvard Divinity School, including leading
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Yeah, I went down every Thursday night to a maximum security prison in Bridgewater, Mass.
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And, you know, I had gone to Divinity School, like, really excited and energized to learn
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And I found that what I was learning in the classroom, while interesting and sometimes
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illuminating, what I really was hungry for was learning more about, you know, why do people
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And really curious about the kind of diversity and variety of religious experiences.
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And, you know, I found this volunteer opportunity.
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And I have to say, like, that became my most important classroom when I was at Harvard Divinity
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School was the time I spent in this study group.
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The group was led by somebody who'd been imprisoned for 20 plus years.
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And, you know, he was not a religious person per se, but he was a deeply thoughtful, philosophically
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And so, you know, one of the things we would do is, you know, he would bring reading material
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And a lot of what he was gravitating toward was, you know, the Stoics and, you know, how
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And how do you continue to engage it productively and thoughtfully?
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And so, you know, there were men in that group who were Muslim.
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There were men in that group who were Christian.
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There were men in that group who were, you know, agnostics.
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But I found a sense of just deep meaning and community in the conversations we had.
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So it was an eye-opening and illuminating experience.
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I mean, what did you learn about spirituality from that experience that's shaped the way you
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You know, I'm a big, big fan and student of the great 20th century Jewish writer and
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And one of Buber's most famous works is a book called I Am Thou.
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And I Am Thou is really a meditation on where do we find the divine?
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And part of Buber's thinking and hypothesis was that we find the divine.
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In the space between each other and dialogue is a place, dialogue between and among people
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is a place where we can have deep and searching spiritual encounters.
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I mean, I'd had this kind of hypothesis that conversation about religion and spirituality
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But I didn't realize that I would find the spirit in those in-between spaces.
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And that has really informed so much of my spiritual practice and religious life moving
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Another project you worked on while you were in Divinity School is a book that you wrote.
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It's called All That's Holy, A Young Guy, An Old Car, and the Search for God in America.
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And the book is based on a road trip you took around the country to talk to regular everyday
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Well, I got the idea while I was in Divinity School.
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And when I graduated, I set out on the road to do this.
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And, you know, it came like a, it was like a brainstorm.
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And it was a flash of what I took as, what I took as insight.
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My experience in the prison in conversation with these men in there was impactful enough
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for me that I was like, well, if I'm learning so much and growing so much in conversation
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with people learning about their spiritual lives and priorities and commitments, you know,
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what would it look like to do that on a broader canvas?
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And, you know, talking to people really became my sort of chosen curriculum.
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And I had a wonderful teacher and advisor and mentor, Harvey Cox at Harvard Div School.
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I was like, hey, I want to get in my, my Nissan Altima and I want to drive around the country
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So I did it and met so many wonderful people and learned a ton, both about them.
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And, you know, at least as importantly about me.
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What type of people did you talk to that ended up in the book?
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I mean, I talked to, you know, basically any religious tradition you can think of.
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I found folks and a lot of it was finding people serendipitously.
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So, you know, a Muslim shopkeeper in Dayton, Ohio was the first person I talked to.
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Pentecostal preachers in Northern California, Buddhists, you know, Orthodox Jews,
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people who had converted to Orthodox Judaism, you know, Mormons, missionaries, and everybody
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You know, it's such a diverse religious landscape in America.
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And, you know, I was fortunate to get to experience a lot of it.
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How did that trip and writing the book influence your relationship with your own faith tradition?
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You know, part of what I'm sort of working through on that trip is what role is religion,
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what role is spiritual life going to have in my own life moving forward?
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You know, that would have been such a, like, impossible conjecture when I was 16 years old.
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But there I am, I'm 25, and I'm like, is this really what I want to do?
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And, you know, again, I didn't end up becoming a rabbi.
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But I think that process of, like, wrestling out loud with people, bringing your questions,
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bringing the things you're really curious about, bringing the things you're struggling
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with, like, that is core to how I engage my own Jewish learning and Jewish practice.
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And that's part of why I love interfaith conversations is because I'm learning so much about other
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people, and what they tell me about them is also informing me about me.
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So how did you go from divinity student to financial advisor, helping people manage their
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I thought really seriously about becoming a rabbi, and then I have spent almost 25 years
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And, you know, a lot of people, when I'm meeting them for the first time, ask, you know, how
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And part of how I answer that question is that when I have conversations with people about money,
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the conversations are always about more than money.
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They're about their hopes and dreams and aspirations, and they are about their fears and anxieties
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And, you know, so my work as a financial advisor, you know, I play the role of educator.
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I play the role of, you know, sort of acknowledging and celebrating life milestone events.
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There's also a lot of pastoral care, sort of in the process of having, you know, difficult,
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And, you know, when I sort of like pull the camera back and look at it, work as a financial
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advisor, if you're doing it in this kind of hopefully intelligent and thoughtful and
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open and honest way, it has so many commonalities with work as a rabbi.
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You're dealing with like so much of human experience and so much of how people are wrestling with
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it, and you get to have a front row seat in that.
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So, you know, it might be counterintuitive, but I really think of div school being honestly
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just incredible preparation for work in helping people navigate their financial lives thoughtfully.
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Yeah, I think that's true that when you're talking about money, you're talking about more
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And whenever I have conversations with them, it's pretty much like, okay, we're doing this.
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Here's the mix of stocks and bonds we've got going.
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But sometimes I think it'd be really useful to talk to this guy about like, what are my
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Because in the background, I'm having those conversations with my wife about like, what
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And I think it'd be useful to have a financial advisor who can help you with the brass tack
00:14:05.300
stuff, but also help you sort through that psychological, spiritual stuff that lies behind those money
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And I think there's a lot of appetite out there among people for whom, you know, money is like how we use our
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money, how we think about it, how we spend it, how we invest it.
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And, you know, it's so deeply interconnected with our core values.
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And I think sometimes our culture teaches our, especially our economic and financial
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culture teaches that, you know, sort of money is over here in one sphere and our core values and spiritual
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lives and religious commitments are over here in another sphere.
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And I, and I think that's a hugely lost opportunity because people want to be figuring out how do I
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And I think conversations like this and an ongoing, it's, you know, it's not a one-off, it's an ongoing
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It can be really impactful and energizing for people.
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So you have a podcast called Money Meet Meaning.
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And what you do in this podcast, you explore what different faith traditions say about money.
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And one thing you note is that money is one of the most frequent topics in ancient scriptures.
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Jesus talked about money more than anything else except for the kingdom of God.
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Why do you think ancient scripture talked about money so much?
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I mean, look, religious tradition, like our ancient scriptures, which by the way, are incredibly
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current and contemporary at the same time, are focused on humans, right?
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How we live in the world, how we interact in the world.
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I mean, I think nearly half of Jesus' parables are about money and financial life.
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You know, there are 613 mitzvot or commandments in the Torah, you know, the five books of Moses.
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And over a hundred of them are about our financial lives.
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So this stuff is hiding in plain sight in our spiritual traditions.
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And, you know, I think when you look back, and this is something that I really have gotten
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from studying religion and learning more about it over, you know, the intervening decades.
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You know, when you look back at the birth of religious traditions, part of what makes religions
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so insightful and illuminating is that they're looking at the world as it is, and then they're
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also, at the very same time, they're imagining the way the world could be.
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Our, what I would call our wisdom traditions, they're really about us and our lives.
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And they are, you know, again, on the one hand, they are clear-eyed and practical.
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And on the other hand, they are aspirational and inspiring.
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And they are saying, like, there's another world that's possible.
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And, like, here's the roadmap for trying to accomplish it.
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So I also think, like, on that same topic, you know, one of the things that's really fascinating
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about life with money is that it raises, I mean, you know, I think everybody in your audience
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will probably identify with this, but, like, life with money is hard, it's challenging, it's
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complex, and it raises all kinds of ethical and, I think, spiritual questions.
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And it's also, like, wrestling with those questions and those challenges.
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We are filled with creative potential for how to make our lives more meaningful and how to, like,
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So, you know, when I think about religious traditions without deep and broad conversations
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about money, I think there would be a gigantic crater in those traditions.
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And so, you know, there's a lot more to talk about, but that's the beginning of an answer.
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Yeah, so, I mean, those ancient sages, they understood that money makes up a big part of
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And when we're talking about money, we're often talking about more than just money.
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It's, you know, the same, just as it's true for us, so it was true for people living, you
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Like, that the conversations about money are, like, there are, of course, new subtleties and
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contours to them, but in some respects, there's not that much new under the sun.
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I'm excited to get to Ecclesiastes at some point, but I'm glad you brought them up.
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Let's talk about the specific ways different religious traditions talk about money.
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Let's start off with your own faith tradition, Judaism.
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And maybe we can talk about Ecclesiastes there, because he talks a lot about that.
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Yeah, I mean, if you're going to talk about Judaism and money, you've got to bring up Ecclesiastes.
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I mean, I think, first and foremost, like, what I'm going to say about, like, this is just
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So, you know, let's take this as the opening of the conversation and not the end of it.
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But, you know, if I think about Judaism and money, you know, I love, I love the book of
00:19:51.960
And, you know, one of the things, one of the, like, central injunctions that Moses delivers
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to the assembled biblical Hebrews in Deuteronomy is, you know, right after saying, the Lord,
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our God is one, Moses says, this is Deuteronomy 6.
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For anybody keeping score at home, this is Deuteronomy 6.
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You know, but one of the things Moses says is, you shall love the Lord your God with all your
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heart, with all your being, and all your might.
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And, you know, that's probably, like, memorized by lots of us across different religious traditions.
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But the towering medieval Jewish writer, commentator, rabbi, sage, Rashi, in doing this interpretation
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of the Torah, he looks at that verse and he says, okay, what does Moses mean when he talks
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And, you know, what Rashi says is, when Moses is talking about, you shall love the Lord your
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God with all your heart, being, and might, might means your property, your money, your
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So that's, like, a centerpiece of the Jewish understanding around money is that money is
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important and necessary for individuals, for families, for communities.
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And part of why it's so important is that it's important because it's a vehicle for divine
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You know, a second piece is that money and spiritual life are not separate in Judaism.
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They are not, like, in their own respective corners of the boxing ring.
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They are mutually informing and enriching and interdependent.
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This is from a part of the Talmud called Pirkei Avot, which is, you can kind of translate it as
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And this maxim, it goes, without flour, there's no Torah.
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So what are the rabbinic sages, Talmudic sages talking about when they say that?
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They're saying, first and foremost, spiritual life requires that people's material needs
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Like, if you're hungry for bread, it's going to be very difficult to focus on, you know,
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And at the same time, if you're only focused on material things, it's going to be, you need
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And so, you know, without Torah, there's no flour.
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The idea there is that, like, if left to our own devices, humans are going to think that
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And what they need to do is keep accumulating, keep accumulating.
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And, you know, part of what the Talmud is teaching us there is the precepts and prescriptions
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that we get from Jewish teaching and Jewish wisdom helps control our impulses in important
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and significant and life-affirming and community-affirming ways.
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So, you know, this is an interplay that Jewish teachers have been wrestling with forever.
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Another thing I've seen throughout the Hebrew Bible as I've read it over the years, a theme
00:26:02.020
that comes up that I think is related to money is the idea of idolatry.
00:26:07.140
You know, since Moses, you know, Moses was up in Mount Sinai and his brother Aaron got
00:26:15.700
And then like throughout the rest of the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, these prophets, you
00:26:19.400
know, appear because idolatry is on the scene, like Amos.
00:26:22.720
And they're like, you guys, what is going on here?
00:26:25.740
What do you think the Hebrew conception of idolatry can teach us about our relationship
00:26:33.380
I mean, if you read the Ten Commandments, whether it's in Exodus or whether it's in
00:26:37.140
Deuteronomy, you know, baked into the Ten Commandments is a kind of like mini roadmap
00:26:44.820
So, you know, one of the Ten Commandments is about you shall work, but you shall also
00:26:58.260
That's about intention and our attitude toward money.
00:27:01.440
And of course, like the prohibition on idol worship and idolatry, you know, I think Judaism
00:27:07.560
takes really seriously the prospect that money is something that can rise to the level without
00:27:16.400
appropriate, again, I'm going to use the word guardrails.
00:27:20.160
Money can rise to the level of a kind of godly state.
00:27:27.500
And I think Judaism is really keenly aware of those challenges.
00:27:32.700
You know, part of the Jewish perspective on money is that there is a lot of concern and
00:27:42.100
So, you know, back to Deuteronomy, you see that with Moses, you know, hey, looking ahead
00:27:47.340
when we cross the Jordan River, like this community is going to be comfortable.
00:27:54.840
This community is going to be settled, not going to be wandering in the wilderness forever.
00:27:58.840
And with affluence, with affluence and with comfort, like Moses is expressing this really
00:28:08.180
How will your relationship with God change when you think like all of what you've achieved
00:28:15.240
So I think that's one really interesting piece of how Jews have wrestled over the millennia
00:28:21.900
with this question of, you know, affluence and wealth and spiritual commitment.
00:28:27.140
And then, you know, getting back to Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiastes, for people who haven't read it,
00:28:37.300
And part of what Ecclesiastes is saying is like, hey, this is like first person narrative
00:28:43.340
and it's very, talk about confessional, my gosh, like this is a person who has achieved
00:28:54.360
Incredible worldly success, you know, running things, governance, you know, anything that
00:29:00.500
this particular narrator has wanted, he's accomplished.
00:29:05.460
And yet at the same time, he feels this emptiness and this sense that, you know, all is vanity
00:29:11.080
and that striving after these things is also vanity.
00:29:15.540
So look, the Hebrew Bible, I guess all scriptures, I mean, it's from my perspective, all scriptures
00:29:25.180
And there's a lot of stuff that ends up on the cutting room floor.
00:29:27.800
But what's, I think, really illuminating and telling about what ends up in the scriptures
00:29:35.120
is that this is something that the ancient curators, whoever they were, were really interested
00:29:42.400
in having future generations consider and wrestle with.
00:29:48.440
Yeah, so I think the idea is just money is important, but you got to keep it in its proper
00:29:57.020
Are there any practices from Judaism that you think people from any faith tradition or
00:30:02.920
any background could apply in their lives in relationship to their money?
00:30:08.720
I mean, you know, at the center of Jewish teaching and Jews' relationship with money is this concept
00:30:15.920
Tzedakah, you know, I think is often translated as charity, but it comes from the root tzedek,
00:30:24.420
And so, you know, there's this, like, just deep connection between the work of, you know,
00:30:31.860
our charitable contributions actually being something that makes for a more just world
00:30:39.020
So I think, you know, just that lens, that frame can be really important and certainly
00:30:46.000
Yeah, I think another one, Shabbat, the Sabbath, just taking a day off where you don't work
00:30:50.420
and you learn to be comfortable feeling like you have value, like you've got worth outside
00:30:57.140
You know, re-embracing yourself as a human being, not just as a human doing, you know,
00:31:02.960
like, you know, not being anxious about doing stuff that doesn't have immediate concrete
00:31:06.880
ROI that's not productive, you know, it's taking time to think about and do higher, more
00:31:15.080
I mean, Shabbat, you know, we have celebrated and observed Shabbat for, as a family for,
00:31:24.260
And, you know, it is such an important grounding, anchoring practice, no matter what's going on
00:31:32.420
You know, you go back to the first couple, the first chapter or two of Genesis, you know,
00:31:37.120
each day God's creating the world and God looks at the world after each day of creation
00:31:45.940
And you get to the end of the sixth day and God looks at the world and God says, what I've
00:31:50.860
created is not just good, it's exceedingly good.
00:31:55.120
Now, it's not perfect, but it's exceedingly good.
00:31:58.400
And just as God models how to work creatively in the world, God also is modeling why it's
00:32:05.500
important to rest, both to appreciate what exists and also to recognize that we're not
00:32:18.980
So we talked about earlier, Jesus talks a lot about money in the gospels.
00:32:22.940
About half of his parables are related to money somehow.
00:32:26.320
But whenever I read the gospels of Jesus, it can seem like he's all over the place on the
00:32:33.040
So, you know, in one instance, you'll see him telling a guy, you can't be rich and get
00:32:38.620
And then in another instance, you'll see him giving a parable where a guy who has given
00:32:43.780
the least amount of money from his master gets his money taken away because he didn't
00:32:50.340
Or he tells the rich young ruler that he's to sell all he has, but he doesn't make that
00:32:56.500
He says you can't serve both God and money, mammon.
00:33:00.100
But then he also says that you should use worldly wealth to make friends.
00:33:03.600
What do you make of the diversity of Jesus's teachings about money?
00:33:11.420
You know, first and foremost, money is complex.
00:33:14.640
And so the range of topics that Jesus is covering and the breadth of people that he's talking
00:33:21.600
to about this in and of itself, I think, informs us that, wow, there's just like such
00:33:28.040
a diversity of experience in our financial lives.
00:33:32.200
Of course, you know, Jesus is teaching and preaching and practicing as a Jew.
00:33:38.960
And so like these teachings are umbilically linked to Jewish teachings in, you know, both
00:33:46.660
And I mean, you know, one of the things that comes up when I'm thinking about Jesus's teachings
00:33:50.980
is he's really like laser focused on the spiritual perils of wealth.
00:33:58.520
And I think importantly, you know, wealth accumulation, you know, you referenced it,
00:34:03.780
Brett, but this dictum that you can't serve both money and mammon in Matthew and that
00:34:15.020
Of course, you know, the rich man and the eye of the needle, like that's a really complex
00:34:19.700
One of my favorite teachings from the Christian tradition is in First Timothy, chapter six.
00:34:27.580
And there's this like profound misunderstanding about the verse.
00:34:31.440
I'm sure you and many in your audience know where I'm going with this.
00:34:35.040
But a lot of times people think the language is money is the root of all evil.
00:34:42.800
The verse that, you know, presumably Paul is writing this, but the verse is really the
00:34:53.340
So it's not making a declarative statement about the evils of money.
00:35:02.480
And the excessive love of money is what Paul and of course, Jesus is warning us about.
00:35:11.680
And I think Jesus is really, you might've even mentioned this already, Brett, but like,
00:35:15.600
you know, Jesus is really focused on, you know, what are your priorities?
00:35:21.960
What are your points of emphasis in the life you live?
00:35:25.820
And how do you keep money in a place of perspective and balance and not let it overwhelm all these
00:35:39.880
What I think I hear you saying is that in the Christian tradition, money in and of itself
00:35:50.120
And maybe that idea can help us square some of Jesus's diverse teachings about it because
00:35:57.080
he's addressing the different ways that money can become a problem for people.
00:36:01.280
So, you know, for that rich young ruler where Jesus said, you got to sell all your stuff.
00:36:05.580
Well, that's what he needed to do because he loved his stuff so much.
00:36:11.520
I mean, because he was doing everything else right, but he still loved his money more than
00:36:15.640
And then with the parable of the talents where that one guy gets his one talent taken away,
00:36:20.760
he had like a too fearful of a relationship with money.
00:36:24.540
He was so cautious, but in a way that shows a lack of trust in God.
00:36:28.940
And that keeps him from being, you know, fruitful and expansive.
00:36:32.580
So even being too fearful about money still allows your relationship with money to dominate
00:36:41.780
And I think, you know, Jesus is offering such personalized, really customized teaching to
00:36:50.360
I mean, that's one of the reasons he's so inspiring to me.
00:36:53.940
But, you know, you look at that parable about the widow's might in, I think it's in Mark.
00:36:59.480
And part of what he's doing is that this poor woman offers this like tiny gift as a charitable
00:37:15.440
Even though she's not giving vast amounts, she's giving from the heart and she's giving
00:37:20.260
something that's meaningful and impactful for her.
00:37:23.720
And Jesus definitely wants to shine a spotlight on that kind of relationship to money.
00:37:32.780
Yeah, I mean, Islam is a religion of this world.
00:37:36.700
So there are a few things I'd say, again, like necessary disclaimer, this is really the
00:37:42.940
But, you know, first and foremost, the Prophet Muhammad was a merchant.
00:37:48.100
And, you know, he only receives this kind of divine message in the middle of his life.
00:37:53.540
So, you know, he grew up poor, was working class.
00:37:58.300
And what he did in his work is that he would guide caravans across the desert.
00:38:04.180
And he did it with such responsibility and such integrity and such diligence that actually
00:38:12.600
his wife, Khadija, who is a wealthy person, proposed to Muhammad because of the character
00:38:25.940
So that in and of itself tells us that there's something really, really powerful about how
00:38:33.100
we conduct our business with honesty and integrity.
00:38:36.600
There's another, I think, really important principle in Islamic teaching that, you know,
00:38:42.220
there's no there's no voluntary poverty in Islam.
00:38:52.620
So yet again, we're seeing a religious tradition that's focused on finding a balance in our
00:39:00.560
And from a sort of communal perspective, one of the things that I find really, really
00:39:06.740
inspiring about Islam's relationship to the economy and to money is that, you know, meeting
00:39:12.400
people's baseline basic needs is more important than maximizing individual wants.
00:39:23.980
One is that at a certain point in his teaching and his mission, the Prophet Muhammad is sort
00:39:30.200
of compelled to move from his birthplace of Mecca to Medina.
00:39:34.440
And that's a really important journey in the Islamic tradition.
00:39:38.280
And one of the first things he does when he gets to Medina is he makes a market.
00:39:46.040
He makes a market because all of these different tribes have an opportunity to come to the market.
00:39:52.120
And even though they've been, you know, arguing with each other and fighting each other and
00:39:56.720
killing each other over lots of different things prior to Muhammad building this market, when they
00:40:02.640
come to the market, they're interacting and exchanging goods and services, building
00:40:11.320
And so you see that a marketplace is actually a platform for building community.
00:40:18.640
So I think that's I mean, not to editorialize too much, but that's a pretty extraordinary example from Islam.
00:40:26.400
And the one other thing I would say is just like when you're talking about Islam, you know, there are some central pillars of the faith.
00:40:32.340
And living a conscientious life with money is like at the center of these pillars.
00:40:39.160
So, you know, one of the pillars is zakat, which is charity, being generous like that is just a core principle and a threshold part of being a Muslim.
00:40:50.360
And then, you know, fasting during Ramadan has a lot of intersection with life with money, because part of why Muslims fast is that they're showing empathy for the poor and they are experiencing hunger every year, every Muslim in a way that helps them better understand human needs and human needs.
00:41:15.180
And to sort of recommit, rededicate themselves to being charitable, to being generous and to making sure that, you know, ideally, we live in a world where no one is in need like that.
00:41:26.600
So I think what's interesting is that the beliefs of these three faiths are very different in many ways, yet there seems to be some definite similarities in how they approach money.
00:41:36.240
You know, for all three, there's this thread that, okay, money is important for well-being.
00:41:42.120
It can be a positive tool, but you got to keep it in a healthy balance in your life.
00:41:46.380
You know, don't let it dominate your priorities.
00:41:48.940
Don't become so consumed by it that you stop caring about other people.
00:41:55.280
So you're working with people on the brass tacks of their finances, like how to invest, how to spend, how to save.
00:42:01.200
Are there any concrete financial practices that you think people can use to turn the broad principles of their faith into action?
00:42:10.840
Like are there financial practices that could be turned into spiritual disciplines?
00:42:15.840
So one thing that comes to mind, Brett, is there's a gentleman, and I think he's been a guest on your podcast, Jesse Mecham, who founded You Need a Budget.
00:42:29.960
That's right. It was a long time ago, but we've had Jesse on the podcast.
00:42:33.220
All right. Well, you know, he was a guest on our podcast.
00:42:39.020
And, you know, part of what he talks about in budgeting, I mean, and he's coming from a deep values perspective,
00:42:46.440
is that budgeting is an exercise for both intention and attention.
00:42:54.060
So, you know, focusing on budgeting, how we spend our money, how we save our money, like that's a discipline and that's a kind of mindfulness practice.
00:43:06.240
I would definitely encourage people to check out You Need a Budget because there's a lot of wise and practical guidance on there.
00:43:12.720
I also think, you know, people struggle a lot with how to use their money in the world, how do you invest it, how do you spend it.
00:43:20.700
And I am a big believer that, look, this is not always possible, but to the extent it's possible, you know, aligning your spending with your values is really important.
00:43:33.180
Like, what kind of world do we want to be living in?
00:43:35.700
For me, like my wife and I get into a back and forth.
00:43:41.360
This is an ongoing thing about, this is an ongoing conversation about how often to use Amazon.
00:43:49.020
And, you know, we have, we are blessed to live in a neighborhood where we have all kinds of wonderful local places.
00:43:59.180
We have some of the most amazing diners you've ever been to, local shops, like such good stuff.
00:44:06.780
And, you know, Amazon is really an extraordinary service and an extraordinary company in so many ways.
00:44:13.840
But there is a real cost, a real social cost to using Amazon when we're doing it and bypassing using local businesses.
00:44:22.940
So, you know, we have a back and forth about this.
00:44:25.260
So, we have come to a detente, a domestic detente about using Amazon, where you use Amazon if something is really hard to get or really heavy to transport.
00:44:39.480
But otherwise, like, try to use your local businesses.
00:44:43.600
And I think, you know, and I think that can help create the world that you want to live in.
00:44:47.520
Yeah, I think just keeping track of how you're spending your money is akin to a spiritual practice.
00:44:55.700
And if you keep a budget, that develops self-discipline.
00:44:58.620
And it just allows you to see, you know, there's that saying, if you want to see what someone values, you look at their calendar and their checkbook.
00:45:06.660
Because how you spend your time and your money reveals your true priorities in life.
00:45:13.480
So, something you talk about in your work is that culture can be a powerful liturgist.
00:45:21.780
For parents who are raising kids in a hyper-consumerist America with social media, which is basically, I mean, it's just ads, both, you know, subtle ads and overt ads.
00:45:33.120
What do you think is the most countercultural financial move parents can make to show their kids that their ultimate joy lies in spirituality, you know, more meaningful things in life, and not just money and stuff?
00:45:46.900
Yeah. Well, the first thing I go to that we come back to in our conversation is Shabbat.
00:45:53.360
I think the practice of resting, refraining from work, celebrating both the world as it is, imperfect as it is, celebrating the world as it is, and also celebrating freedom, time with family, time with friends.
00:46:10.300
That's powerful, and it's so necessary in our world where, like, we're just going 24-7 all the time.
00:46:20.760
You know, another thing that comes up for me is giving.
00:46:24.700
You know, so much of our world, and by the way, like, some of this is productive.
00:46:29.300
So much of our financial life can be automated now, and so much is digitized.
00:46:33.640
And, look, I mean, automating your 401k contributions, yes, do it.
00:46:39.920
You know, this is not a financial advice podcast, but, like, that's a helpful practice for people.
00:46:45.000
But there are ways that you don't want to automate, and that you want to, like, to go back to Martin Buber, where you really want the focus to be on relationship and not on transaction.
00:46:54.420
So, I think, like, in terms of, you know, giving your money, giving your time, like, those are ways we live out our spiritual commitments in the world, both in how we're generous, how we connect with other people, how we acknowledge the dignity of other people's work, regardless of what they're doing.
00:47:20.080
Where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:47:21.600
Well, thank you so much for a great conversation, Brett.
00:47:24.620
This has been terrific, and I've learned a ton, too.
00:47:29.360
Season 2 is going to be dropping in early 2026.
00:47:42.640
And then you can, you know, if anybody wants to, like, talk a little bit further or engage in the subject a little bit further, you know, I'm happy to.
00:47:50.000
You can send an email to info at moneymeetmeaning.com, and we can take it from there.
00:48:03.380
He's the co-host of the podcast Money Meet Meaning.
00:48:07.840
Just search for Money Meet Meaning, and they're about to start their second season.
00:48:11.080
Also, check out our show notes at aom.is slash meaningandmoney, where you can find links to resources when we delve deeper into this topic.
00:48:46.600
If you like the Art of Manly's podcast because it digs beneath the surface of how things really work, they're going to love this new podcast from two familiar voices.
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