Move the Body, Heal the Mind
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Summary
Jennifer Heiss is a professor, the Director of the NeuroFit Lab, which studies the effects of exercise on brain health, and the author of Move the Body, Heal the Mind. In this episode, Dr. Heiss shares how exercise can not only mitigate mental disorders, but actually optimize the mind.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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When we think about the benefits of exercise, we tend to think of what it does for our body,
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making us leaner, stronger, and healthier. But my guest is out to emphasize the powerful effect
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physical activity has on our brains too, and just how much our bodies and minds are connected.
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Dr. Jennifer Heiss is a professor, the director of the NeuroFit Lab, which studies the effects
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of exercise on brain health, and the author of Move the Body, Heal the Mind. Today on the show,
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Jennifer and I first discuss how physical activity can help treat mental disorders.
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She shares the way that low to moderate intensity exercise can mitigate anxiety,
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and how short bouts of intense exercise can be used as exposure therapy for treating panic disorders.
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We also talk about the phenomenon of inflammation-induced depression, and how exercise can
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alleviate it. And Jennifer shares how exercise can strengthen someone's attempt at sobriety,
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as well as prevent addiction in the first place. From there, we turn to the way exercise can not
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only mitigate mental maladies, but actually optimize the mind. Jennifer shares how physical
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activity fights aging and can enhance your focus and creativity. We discuss how exercise can improve
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your sleep, how it can be used to shift your circadian clock, and whether it's okay to work out close to
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your bedtime. After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash move the body.
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All right, Jennifer Heiss, welcome to the show.
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So you are the director of the NeuroFit Lab at McMaster University in Canada. What do you
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Yeah, so my lab studies the benefits of exercise for brain health. So we look at the benefits of
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exercise for our mental health, cognition, and in the prevention of Alzheimer's disease.
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And how do you start exploring that connection between physical activity and our mental health?
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So it was back in graduate school, I was studying sort of the fundamentals of neuroscience.
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So how does the brain represent who we are as people and our memories? And it became really
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clear to me that something was not quite right with my own brain. I was having some pretty severe
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anxiety, some intrusive thinking. And I went to the doctor, they recommended I try an antidepressant.
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I was very reluctant. And then a friend recommended I try cycling. And magically, those bike rides soothed
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my mind, they quieted my mind. And it really had a profound shift, not just in my personal life,
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giving me a lot of peace, but also in my professional life, because I became fascinated
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with understanding how exercise was having such a profound effect on the brain. And so that's where
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it all began back in grad school. And we've been intensely studying it ever since.
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And this idea of there's a connection between our bodies and our mental health. This is, I mean,
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this, it's been going on for, I would say 50 years, but this is a break from Descartes,
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right? Who said, famously said the brain and the mind are separate, right? The body is just the
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machine. And there's a soul inside the machine. And the body doesn't really have effect on the mind.
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But what the research is showing is, no, we are our minds. Our body is our minds.
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Yeah. Oh gosh. Descartes, he did a lot of damage. I mean, it was important, the mind-body dualism that
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he set forth, because prior to that, the body was really mystified, like a spiritualized, religious,
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like, and the study of it couldn't take place. So he had to kind of separate the mind and the body,
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kind of spirit and body to advance medicine. But in doing so, he removed basically like the shoulders
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up from the study of medicine for such a long time that we don't really, we don't fully understand how
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the brain works. And we don't fully understand how to take care of our mind, what the biological
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bases are of mental health. But yes, you're right. We are absolutely paving the way. New research is very
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exciting. And we're starting to piece things together. So you got a book out, it's called
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Move the Body, Heal the Mind, where you make a very reader-friendly summary of this research you've
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been doing at your lab. And you explore how exercise and physical activity can help different types of
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mental health issues. And the first one is anxiety. And I'm sure all of us have read the articles or
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heard the podcast about how anxiety is on the rise in the West. What does your research show about
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exercise's effect on anxiety? So exercise has a really profound effect on reducing anxiety symptoms
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and the effects are felt immediately after we exercise. So you go out for your workout and in
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that sort of acute phase, as soon as you're done, you know, when you're like, oof, done, that gives us
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a huge reprieve in our anxiety levels. But even if we consistently go back to exercise, we get less
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less anxious. Now, there's kind of an interesting play here with intensity of exercise. So when you're
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feeling especially anxious, so if you're already in a stressful situation in life, for example,
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then intensive workouts may not be the best mode to go to because the exercise stress will add on to the
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stress in your life. And vigorous exercise, as you know, mimics the symptoms of anxiety. So your heart
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will race, it'll be difficult to breathe. And for a lot of people, this can create a panic attack
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situation where, you know, the heart is racing so fast that they're afraid they're going to have a heart
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attack. So when it comes to exercising for anxiety, just kind of check in with yourself because
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sometimes too intense is not good. And the research shows that at that low to moderate
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intensity, you can really get a lot of benefits. And the reason why is these lighter intensity
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exercises release this neurochemical called neuropeptide Y. And essentially, this is like a
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resiliency factor that bathes the brain, it bathes the fear centers, the amygdala, and helps to
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essentially quiet those centers down. So it's having this biochemical effect to give you that
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Yeah. The neuropeptide Y, I've read studies where they've looked at Navy SEALs. And I think they
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typically have more neuropeptide Y than the general population. It might be a genetic thing and like,
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they're just being selected for that inadvertently. But you're saying that exercise, even if you don't
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have Navy SEAL levels, neuropeptide Y, it can increase it. Is that increase immediate?
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Yeah. The increase happens immediately after, and it lasts for about 30 minutes afterwards.
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Now, the research done so far has only shown that you have to do the exercise to get the boost. In
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neuropeptide Y, there's no kind of residual effects over the long term. So this is why consistency is key,
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so that every workout that you put in, you get that boost. Now, the cool thing about the Navy SEAL
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studies is that not all Navy SEALs have this abundance of neuropeptide Y. And the ones that
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don't have as much, they're the ones most likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder. So this
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is really a protective factor for the brain against trauma and stress.
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Okay. So you get the immediate boost of neuropeptide Y when you exercise, and that can help. And if you
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do exercise consistently, it can stave off anxiety or mitigate it. I mean, is there anything else that
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goes on with exercise that helps prevent anxiety in the long run? Like, let's say you do some intense
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exercise when you're not in a state of stress. Does that have any type of an effect on long-term anxiety?
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Yeah, absolutely. So when we think about the stress response,
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a lot of anxiety stems from like a maladaptive stress response. And the stress response
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is this balancing act between the sympathetic nervous system, like that fight or flight response,
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and the parasympathetic nervous system where the rest and digest. And when we use exercise,
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like in a state of calm, essentially we're training up our stress response. So we're activating the
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parasympathetic nervous system when we're vigorously going. And then as soon as we stop,
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we are flexing our parasympathetic nervous system, that rest and digest, so that it becomes stronger
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and better able to help us recover from stress. And so by continuously like hitting the stress system
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with exercise, we can actually strengthen our stress response, not just for exercise stress,
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but for all stressors in our life. And so ultimately what happens is that when we experience a stressful
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situation in our life, yeah, it will activate the sympathetic nervous system, but our parasympathetic
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nervous system will be really strong and better able to engage so that we stay more calm and less
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reactive. Okay. And I also, you mentioned in the book, you've also done research, there's been research
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done on, let's say someone's got severe anxiety and they're actually getting talk therapy for it,
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exposure therapy. Combining them with exercise can actually give that a boost, correct?
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Oh yeah. That's like a super cool finding. Now this, this is a bit tricky. So people with
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severe anxiety or like panic disorder, when, before I was talking about how anxiety symptoms really mimic
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the symptoms of vigorous exercise, right? So the heart racing, difficulty breathing, difficulty
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concentrating. So this, this vigorous exercise is actually can act as an exposure therapy for people
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who have panic disorder. So most, most people with panic disorder, they avoid exercise. They hate it. They
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especially avoid vigorous exercise because it evokes those symptoms that they fear the most, right? So
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there's this anxiety sensitivity that makes them really sensitive to vigorous exercise. But it turns out that
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vigorous exercise is the medicine that they need, but in really short baby doses. So for example,
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one way to sort of micro dose intense exercise into their life would be just doing like a few seconds of
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sprint. And the idea is that it exposes them. So you, you sprint all out for like a few seconds and your
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heart immediately picks up. It's difficult to breathe. You stop and everything comes back down.
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And you realize you're safe, but it gives you that exposure to those symptoms that you fear the most.
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And you, you know, over time with the repetition of this, the exposure of this, eventually those
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symptoms lose their power and control over you. And you're not afraid of them anymore. And that then
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transfers into the panic disorders that you feel in your life.
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That's really interesting. And I imagine too, besides the neuropeptide Y increasing and strengthening the
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parents, empathetic systems, I imagine exercise, just moving your body gets you out of your brain,
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right? And part of the problem with anxiety is you're just worried about stuff that's not
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really happening and moving your body like takes you away from that and kind of gets you back into
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Oh yeah. A hundred percent. So the mind, it has one track, you know, we can only think about one thing at
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the time. And when we're, when we're, our heads a mess with anxiety, we're, you know, focused on
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negativity and just getting the mind to think on something else like the breath. This is, you know,
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meditative techniques often focus on attention to the breath, but you can couple that with exercise.
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So attention to movement, attention to breath. You don't just have to be sitting still, you can be
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moving and it doesn't just have to be yoga. It could be running or weightlifting. The point is you're
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focusing sort of on the here and now, and it's grounded in the body.
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Okay. So for anxiety to sort of prevent anxiety or reduce it in the long run, do that intense stuff
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because it's going to make you more resilient. But if you're feeling stressed out right now,
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take it easy because that might just add to the stress. So like maybe a walk, for example,
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Okay. Let's talk about another issue that's been on the rise in the West and that's depression.
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And you started the book talking about, you know, the usual response from many general
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practitioners. You had this experience yourself. You go in, you're just like, man, I'm, it's been
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like a couple of weeks. I'm just feeling gray. I'm just feeling really down. Well, the GP will say,
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well, you know, here's an antidepressant. Why were you hesitant to take the antidepressant? And
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what are some of the problems of relying on antidepressants to treat depression?
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Yeah, I was reluctant to take the antidepressant, you know, partly because these drugs have
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a profound effect on the whole brain, not just for the intended benefit to reduce depression. And,
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you know, I was pretty scared of what alterations would take place. And so I wanted to just at least
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explore alternatives. And for me, fortunately, my symptoms were mild. I mean, some people don't have
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that luxury. Their symptoms may be too severe and they may need immediate help. And the
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antidepressant can be really beneficial and transformative for some people. So I want to
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make sure that that message is clear, that it's not, I'm not anti-antidepressants, but I do think that
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having options is really important for people. I mean, the first line of defense for most
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general practitioners or doctors is to prescribe an antidepressant. And we've seen that on the rise,
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especially for mild forms of depression that may benefit from other alternatives like exercise. And
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so I think it's important that, you know, we educate our medical practitioners on the benefits of these
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other therapies and sort of equip them with the tools. I don't think it's their fault. I just don't
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think that they're trained. They're trained really to prescribe drugs and for ailments. And so I think
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that it really, it comes back to Descartes, actually, you know, this biomedical model and we need much more
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Well, something you talk about in the book is that even when someone is given an antidepressant,
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they don't always respond to it. And that's because depression, it isn't homogenous. You know,
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there can be different causes for it and it may not be a serotonin problem. The depression could be
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caused by something else. And one of the sources it could be, the sources of depression, it could be
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inflammation. And we actually had a guest on a few years ago talking about the inflammation-depression
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connection. But can you, can you kind of summarize what we're discovering about the connection between
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Yeah, it's super fascinating. And this, I think, is, is the form of depression on the rise because
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it's linked to chronic stress. So when we are experiencing chronic stress, as many people have
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in the last several years, what happens is that the body was never intended to deal with stress at
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such a chronic level. It was really designed to kind of deal with it acutely. So the predator or
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whatever the threat would be immediately in the physical environment, and then it would either be
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dealt with or not, and then the stress would go away, right? So it wasn't like today in modern life,
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like there's, you know, stress after stress after stress, day after day after day. We worry,
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which creates more stress. The uncertainty of situations create even more stress. And so this
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chronic stress that we're facing day in and day out is really damaging the body. And what it does
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is it, it starts to damage the cells, like physically damage the cells. And this launches a sterile immune
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response. And so it's sterile because there's no bacteria or virus in the body. It's just the damaged
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cells from the stress. And so the immune system launches an attack against these damaged cells.
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This elevates inflammation. And that inflammation doesn't just stay in the body, but it can start
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infiltrating into the brain. And when the brain has too much inflammation, it creates a lot of problems
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for the natural functioning of the neurons. And so things don't function as well. And this can lead to
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dysfunctions and neurochemicals, but it can also lead to kind of slowing of processing, brain fog,
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depressed mood, and there's the source of depression. Not necessarily coming from the root cause of like
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something you're born with, a biochemical deficit in serotonin production or some other neurochemical,
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but a lifestyle, the chronic stress of life is damaging the body in ways that are affecting the mood.
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Yeah. I mean, like when you're sick, think about that. When you're sick, not only do you feel bad,
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but like you get depressed, like you just want to hunker down in a blanket. And so, I mean,
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it kind of makes sense that there's a connection there. When you feel depressed, you don't want to
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do anything. When you're sick, you don't want to do anything.
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Yeah. Yeah. And that's like an evolutionary advantage, right? Because if you're kind of antisocial
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and you're home alone in bed, you know, you're not going to spread the bacteria or virus around.
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And so, that was actually like an evolutionary advantage. But now, if inflammation is being
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caused not by a bacteria or virus, but rather stress, then that advantage is no longer. And
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instead, it just looks like major depressive disorder.
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Can we, are we able to screen for inflammation-caused depression?
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Well, technically, yes. The research suggests that certain cytokines, these pro-inflammatory cytokines,
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can actually are elevated more in people who have depression, especially drug-resistant depression.
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TNF-alpha is one of them. However, it's certainly not routine clinical practice,
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even though we've known about this research for about 10 years. So, you know, again, we need to
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sort of catch up the medical community to some of the newer research on mental illness and how to
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So, one thing they've discovered with people with inflammation-caused depression is that
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exercise helps. But this is counterintuitive because exercise is a stressor. It causes
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inflammation. If you do a heavy weightlifting session, your muscles get inflamed to repair
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the damage you've done. So, how can something that causes inflammation reduce inflammation to
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So, this is a beautiful thing about exercise. You're right. You go out for a hard run or a
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vigorous workout and the body has an acute inflammatory response. And this is to protect
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your body while you're, you know, pushing it hard. But as soon as you stop, the exercising
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muscles then release these myokines that essentially act like an inflammatory cleanup crew. These anti-inflammatory
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cytokines then make the body, they clean up all that inflammation that you produce from exercising
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and then some so that over time, your body becomes less and less inflamed. And this is such a really
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interesting way that we can kind of rebalance, create homeostasis back in the body when it comes to
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That's interesting. When we had the podcast guest about inflammation and depression, he was researching
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sauna use to reduce inflammation. Because like what's in, you know, you heat your body up
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and it causes inflammation and it can reduce inflammation in the long run.
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Yeah. I think all of these sort of acute like micro dosing of stress, like the cold showers or the
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holding of the breath or the sauna, the hot exposure or exercise, they're all micro challenging the body
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in a way that creates this counter response. And then over time, that counter response, the recovery
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from stress becomes stronger and makes the body more resilient to stressors. So I think they're all
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kind of working with a similar mechanism on the stress response, which is super cool.
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In your lab, have you guys found if a particular type of exercise works best for depression or is it
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Yeah. So the research has a pretty interesting, clear benefits. So when it comes to aerobic exercise,
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we're really talking like every step counts and the longer that you go, the better. So every
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additional 10 minutes that you add onto your aerobic exercise, you get an additional boost in mood up to
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one hour. When it comes to resistance exercising, like weightlifting or yoga, tai chi, the more intensive
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you are with the weights or the resistance, the bigger the benefit there when it comes to depression.
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Interesting. Okay. Let's move on to another issue some people are struggling with and that's addiction.
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So when someone gets addicted to a substance, what happens is that the substance is addictive because it
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increases dopamine in the brain to supernatural levels. And what ends up happening is the reward
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system within the brain ends up like locking down. So it strips away receptors. And what this does is
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it makes it really difficult to get enough dopamine response from natural things in life. So they're no
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longer rewarding. They no longer induce that feeling of reward. And so what ends up happening is that when
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an addict then gains tolerance and dependency on the substance of abuse. Now, when they enter sobriety,
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what ends up happening is that, okay, now they've taken away that supernatural dopamine and all they're
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left with is the natural dopamine, you know, the natural stimuli in the world that induces just a small
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amount of dopamine. And it's not enough, at least at first, because the brain needs to recover. And
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it will recover, which is a really fascinating, amazing feature of the brain that it heals itself.
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But it takes time. And exercise, because it releases dopamine as well, can help speed that up. So it
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helps speed up the healing process. It helps crush cravings within that first, you know, few weeks of
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sobriety. And it can be a real helpful tool for people who are in recovery. Another super beneficial
00:22:59.480
effect of exercise for addiction recovery is, you know, especially if you're exercising with a group,
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it creates a brand new social circle for you to have additional support. And for most recovering
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addicts, you know, they've lost a lot of their friends because they were all tied up with the
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addiction and the drug use. And so building this new community of support and friendship through
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exercise has been extremely beneficial for a lot of recovering addicts.
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Okay. Let's just make sure I understand. So when you take a really strong drug,
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you basically blast your dopamine receptors, correct? And it's just like...
00:23:41.880
Right. And so to get the feeling back, you have to take more and more of the
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addictive substance, whatever. What you're saying, when we stop the addictive substance,
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it gives our brain a chance for those dopamine receptors to get back to like a normal state.
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And exercise can just help that process along. Is that how it works?
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Okay. And then you also talk about how exercise can actually be a great way to prevent
00:24:06.060
Yeah. And this is again, back to the idea that exercise is a form of reward and can give the brain
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the dopamine that it seeks. So teenagers are especially experimental. They're seeking novelty
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and new experiences. And in fact, there's even a theory that suggests that that's like by design,
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like the brain is just like hungry for new experiences. And this helps them to explore the
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environment around them, to understand what the world is like, and then they're better equipped to
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function in it. And so exercising helps provide the brain, the dopamine that it seeks within these
00:24:50.480
novel, rewarding experiences. And if exercising is not there, or these novelty experiences are not there,
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then there is a temptation to, a greater temptation to go seeking dopamine out in less helpful
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situations like in alcohol and drugs of abuse. And so the research is really fascinating on that,
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you know, for teens, for young people who are more active, they're less likely to experiment with
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drugs of addiction, drugs of abuse, they're less likely to become addicted. And so, yeah, it seems to
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be really beneficial. But there's this really interesting study I like that it contrasted,
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you know, the different forms of education that we give students and young people about drugs. So
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there's like the anti-drug campaign, just say no to drugs, you know, this is your brain on drugs,
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that kind of don't do drugs campaign, versus teaching kids how to live a healthy lifestyle that
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includes physical activity. And what the research found was that kids are less likely to try and
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experiment with drugs if they've been educated on a healthy lifestyle rather than when they've been
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educated to do the anti-drug campaign. Because if you think about it, I mean, when I was a teen,
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if you told me not to do something, I was just more curious about why I wasn't supposed to do it.
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And so, to me, this makes a lot more sense. And having that exercise there,
00:26:26.820
as part of that healthy lifestyle, it gives the brain the dopamine that it craves.
00:26:31.500
We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.
00:26:37.640
Okay, so let's talk about another thing you were focusing on. You don't just focus on,
00:26:41.140
you know, preventing, you know, mental illness or mental health issues, but you want to use
00:26:44.580
exercise as a way to help people have a more fulfilling life in all aspects of their life.
00:26:48.680
And one thing you found is that exercise can help in the aging process. What does exercise do to
00:26:54.360
keep our brains young? Yeah. So exercise has an incredible effect on the aging brain. So it
00:27:01.620
essentially helps keep our brain young. So as we get older, we, well, the brain, even through
00:27:08.820
adulthood, can produce brand new neurons, brand new born neurons within the hippocampus, which is
00:27:15.960
critical for memory and learning. And it's also the brain region that's devastated by Alzheimer's
00:27:20.760
disease. So by creating more new neurons there, we boost our memory, keep our brain sharp and young
00:27:28.660
and help prevent Alzheimer's disease. Well, it also increases this substance, BDNF. Is that what it
00:27:35.440
is? Yeah. What is BDNF? So BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, and this is a growth factor
00:27:43.320
that helps support the survival functioning of these brain cells. And I like to think of it as like a
00:27:51.040
fertilizer. So it helps them really thrive, the brain cells really thrive and function well. And
00:27:57.260
exercise produces brain BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor. And there's this super cool
00:28:03.360
new research out. Primarily it's been shown in animal models, and we're trying to bring it into human
00:28:09.140
models in my lab now. But it's looking at this link between lactic acid or lactate and BDNF. So
00:28:16.400
lactate is produced by the muscles when they get into that anaerobic state. You know, when
00:28:23.180
when we're in an anaerobic state, what happens is lactate starts to accumulate and the accumulation of
00:28:33.140
that lactate spills out into the blood. It travels to the brain, reporting directly to the hippocampus.
00:28:40.240
And there it produces, it sort of activates BDNF, which then can help fertilize and fortify the cells
00:28:48.720
there. So it's a really fascinating link between like higher intensity exercise and the lactate that
00:28:53.920
it produces. And then this growth factor BDNF that actually helps to support brain cells.
00:28:59.460
Okay, so it can exercise can help neurogenesis along. Has there been studies that show that can help
00:29:08.440
Yeah, so research from my lab, we did like a head to head comparison between genetic risk factors and
00:29:15.300
physical inactivity. And there's a genetic risk factor APOEE4. It's a it's an allele that puts people
00:29:23.340
at an elevated risk and about 25% of the population has it. And we compared that genetic risk to physical
00:29:32.220
inactivity and found that people who are physically inactive had a similar risk of developing dementia as
00:29:38.020
those who were genetically predisposed. So it's I have this saying, you know, you can't change your genes,
00:29:44.260
but you can change your lifestyle. And it can have as big of an effect on your dementia risk as your
00:29:51.860
genetic profile. So, you know, we often think about dementia as being sort of a biological disease,
00:29:57.940
but we do have a lot of control. And this simple thing of moving the body can actually help prevent
00:30:05.760
And you also found your research to going back to the social component of exercise, that it can,
00:30:10.840
if you add in sociability into exercise, it actually turbo charges the age benefits, correct?
00:30:15.920
Yeah, it's really cool. So the especially for older adults who can suffer from loneliness and social
00:30:23.640
isolation, exercise provides this social benefit. And there's this cool study, I really like it. It, it, it showed
00:30:32.020
that older adults who work out together, have better health benefits than those who work out alone, even if the
00:30:40.140
ones who are working out together are not working out as hard. So it really, it really highlights the
00:30:46.340
benefits that we get from being with others. And I think, you know, the last couple of years has been
00:30:51.280
a testament to how important social connections are and exercise is such a catalyst for creating those
00:30:59.160
So another thing that people want to be better at, at least I do sometimes, you know, oftentimes is I want
00:31:04.000
to be able to focus better, right? I'm at work, I'm just, I feel distracted. And your labs actually found
00:31:09.340
research that exercise, physical activity can help with focus. What does that research say?
00:31:14.500
Yeah, so basically, I mean, most of us do our work sitting, right? Or with little movement. And when we sit for
00:31:22.420
prolonged periods of time, essentially, the brain gets starved of the vital nutrients that it needs to really think
00:31:28.720
and focus. And so every 30 minutes, get up for a two minute movement break, you know, it doesn't have to be like
00:31:36.280
anything vigorous. It could just be a stretch, walk around the office, walk around the room, go get a
00:31:44.240
drink of water. That subtle movement from sitting to standing and then moving a little bit is enough to
00:31:51.340
help increase brain blood flow, especially to the prefrontal cortex. So the prefrontal cortex is our
00:31:57.800
most evolved brain region in humans. And it is, it's governing all of that focused attention that we
00:32:05.460
need to like inhibit distractions and stay on task. And it needs a lot of blood flow, it needs a lot of,
00:32:13.060
you know, energy in the form of glucose and oxygen. And so we can give it that through exercise. And
00:32:18.820
research in my lab, we've shown that these short exercise breaks can actually help students
00:32:23.460
prevent them from mind wandering during class so they can stay on task better. And then when you're
00:32:28.320
on task, you're remembering things later so they perform better on their tests afterwards.
00:32:33.220
Yeah, we've had guests on the podcast talking about the need to revive physical education in schools.
00:32:39.120
Because like a lot of schools, I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the United States,
00:32:42.200
they've pulled back on PE because they want to spend more time studying for these, you know,
00:32:46.700
state mandated tests. But some schools have found, actually, when they had the kids spend more time
00:32:51.840
doing, you know, vigorous exercise, just vigorous play, scores go up.
00:32:56.880
Yeah, it's counterintuitive. And I think that a lot of parents, like, and school administrators
00:33:02.660
think that, okay, we just need to cram in more knowledge and information, but the brain needs
00:33:07.920
to be primed to accept that knowledge. And exercise helps to prime it so it's ready for learning.
00:33:14.200
And then it can learn better and learn more efficiently and more effectively. So it's something
00:33:19.860
that we're really pushing here. Yeah. So I think the dose you gave in the book for focus is like
00:33:27.400
for kids, they need like 60 minutes of vigorous movement, right? So just like they get out of
00:33:34.540
breath and sweaty, basically. I think it's like five times or seven. It's like every day is ideal,
00:33:40.140
correct, isn't it? For young kids. And then when you're a teenager, it's like three to four days
00:33:44.520
is the minimum effective dose. Yeah. And I think I'm not a stickler on like getting the maximum.
00:33:51.160
I just want people to move more. You know, I don't want to put too much stress on parents. They already
00:33:56.840
have a lot of stress, but like, you know, just moving more, it accumulates throughout the day,
00:34:03.160
get it in, you know? And so just focusing on that and being mindful of how much you're sitting and for
00:34:09.680
how long and breaking up that sedentary time is really important. What about creativity? Is there
00:34:16.400
a connection between creativity and physical activity? Yeah. Yeah. So this is really cool. So
00:34:21.920
the brain, you know, I talked about the prefrontal cortex and it kind of has these two modes. So one of
00:34:30.340
its mode is like focus, you know, it inhibits distraction and, um, we, we call that inhibitory
00:34:38.140
control. The, the, the second mode is this mental flexibility, which is kind of like daydreaming,
00:34:44.520
mind wandering, creative thinking, thinking like divergently outside the box. Um, and so it,
00:34:51.120
it has these two modes. And when we sit and stay focused for so long, what ends up happening
00:34:58.700
is that that mode gets super tired and it can't do that very well. And then it just kind of does
00:35:05.120
unproductive thinking. But when we, when we exercise, what happens is we can switch the context. So we
00:35:11.780
switch our context from sitting and focusing to exploring the environment, which, which flips the
00:35:19.460
switch to that, uh, mental flexibility. And this it's, it's, it's sort of the idea, like when you're,
00:35:25.920
when you're moving in, in space and doing something different, it's very interesting to the brain.
00:35:32.380
And you can kind of, um, in states of flow, for example, when it's challenging, but you're in the
00:35:38.080
moment, you can actually couple these two different modes so that they're actually both on at the same
00:35:45.020
time. And this gives you like the most powerful brain function possible.
00:35:50.340
So you're a cyclist, you run, you do the triathlon stuff. Like when you're on a run or a long cycle,
00:35:58.620
Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The best ideas come when I'm on my run.
00:36:04.700
And so it's like, you're, you know, you're, you're uninhibited by, you know, focused thinking.
00:36:10.080
The idea is that when, when we're kind of free to allow our mind to wander,
00:36:15.520
then it gets more access to the deep repertoire within our brain that may not have bubbled up to
00:36:22.320
the surface. If we're just focused on one single point, you know, one single stream of thought.
00:36:28.100
Um, so it, it, it just opens up the channels. Um, and the research shows, you know, this, um,
00:36:36.000
when we look at different sports, certain sports are better able to unleash that creativity. So, um,
00:36:43.100
net and combat sports that have an opponent and they involve this improvisation and this play
00:36:50.680
between you and an opponent, this creates a lot more creativity within the individual than say,
00:36:57.260
for example, um, gymnastics or figure skating, which require you to memorize a predefined set
00:37:04.120
of moves. So there's less creativity involved in that. And the idea is of when we train our body to
00:37:10.480
move more creatively, we train our brain to think more creatively. And so even if you're not into
00:37:17.000
sports, you can apply this to your own workout program by, you know, changing things up. So
00:37:22.320
take a different walking route or, uh, try a different activity, even if it's just for fun,
00:37:28.940
these additional things, these novelty experiences that we add to our life, help the brain to stay
00:37:34.760
in that flexible mode. Uh, another connection you found in your lab, uh, to our quality of life
00:37:41.160
is exercise and sleep. What's the connection there? Yeah. So exercise, uh, is so beneficial for sleep.
00:37:50.040
Um, it's one of the greatest gifts it gives. And, um, so it works kind of two ways. So exercising during
00:37:57.700
the day, um, it helps us expend more energy. When we expend more cellular energy like ATP,
00:38:04.940
it produces this by-product called adenosine and adenosine is a natural sleeping aid. So when
00:38:10.840
adenosine builds up to a certain threshold, it triggers sleep. And so when we move more during
00:38:15.860
the day, we build up more adenosine and we can, we can sleep better at night. We sleep deeper at night.
00:38:20.780
Um, the other way that exercise works is that it can help retrain or resynchronize brain time to real
00:38:29.440
time. So, um, we've all experienced this when traveling through different time zones, you know,
00:38:35.820
you, that jet lag that you experience when your brain time is just really out of sync with real
00:38:40.760
time. And it just takes some time to kind of realign the two. Well, exercising can help speed that
00:38:47.380
realignment up. So we know that the sun is a really powerful cue of what time it is for the brain and
00:38:54.060
the brain can kind of link up with the sun, but exercising actually has similar qualities as the
00:38:59.900
sun does to help reset the suprachiasmatic nucleus, that master clock within the brain to help, uh, to
00:39:08.940
help us, uh, sync up our time better. Okay. So you're having trouble sleeping, exercise during the day.
00:39:14.820
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Is there like a time that's best for that to get the benefits of exercise and sleep?
00:39:21.180
Yeah. So some people may have heard it's bad to exercise at night and the research shows actually
00:39:27.200
it's okay as long as you're not going super vigorously to the point that your heart rate's
00:39:35.120
still elevated 25 beats above baseline when you're about to go to sleep. So that's sort of the key.
00:39:42.280
But if you, you know, a lot of people like to work out just before they go to bed. And if it's not,
00:39:47.320
you know, if you're, if you're able to get your heart rate back down before you sleep,
00:39:51.460
then it will be very beneficial. But, um, there's this cool research that was done.
00:39:57.240
They use these micro ultra short sleep cycles where they'd like have people sleep for one hour,
00:40:04.480
wake for one hour and do that for three days straight to just wipe out the circadian clock.
00:40:09.940
And then they would introduce exercise at different times of the day to see how it impact,
00:40:16.480
how it would shift the clock. And so what they found was that, you know, if you're someone who
00:40:23.920
likes to stay up late and you need to start getting up earlier and you need to shift your clock a bit
00:40:30.460
earlier, then exercising first thing in the morning around 7am is beneficial. Um, but if you're,
00:40:38.000
you know, someone who needs to sleep in more and stay up a bit later than exercising in the early
00:40:46.860
So I think a lot of people might be listening to this and thinking, yeah, I know I got to exercise
00:40:50.840
more, not only for my physical health, but yeah, not my mental health, but man, it's really hard to
00:40:56.060
get going. It's hard to stick to a routine. And your lab has actually researched why people struggle
00:41:01.940
to start and stick with an exercise program. Uh, what have you all found?
00:41:05.800
Yeah. I mean, it's hard. It's, it is hard. The brain is against us. It's kind of this relic of the
00:41:11.180
evolutionary past when, you know, we needed to conserve energy to survive. And so when we weren't
00:41:16.560
expending energy to, to like survive, to hunt and gather our food, then, uh, the brain was just like,
00:41:24.620
okay, let's just, let's just chill, you know, let's just be lazy here. Um, but now we don't have to
00:41:30.100
really move to survive, at least most of the time. Um, you know, there's no imminent danger, no,
00:41:36.700
you know, need to hunt and gather our food. Uh, and so the brain sees voluntary exercise as an
00:41:44.120
extravagant expense and it goes out of our, out of its way to prevent us from doing it. You know,
00:41:48.980
that, that negative talking around, oh, I'm too tired. Oh, we don't have time to do it. You know,
00:41:54.180
this, this is just that, you know, that brain trying to conserve energy. And so there are certain
00:42:00.660
things you can do to kind of remind yourself that resources are plenty of a really fun,
00:42:06.300
trick is to like swish some sugary drink in your mouth. And the trick is you don't actually even
00:42:11.660
have to drink it. You could just swish it around and spit it out. And that actually helps to, uh,
00:42:16.220
reduce the effort you feel when you're first starting your workout, um, to kind of essentially
00:42:21.320
break the inertia and remind the brain that resources are plenty. Um, but I think it's,
00:42:27.080
it's also important to remember, um, that it is harder to move when we're not mentally well.
00:42:33.780
So at the very beginning of the pandemic, we conducted some research, surveyed 1600 people
00:42:39.860
asking them, you know, how are you doing? You know, what's your physical activity like?
00:42:44.460
And not surprisingly, people were really, you know, they were stressed. They were more depressed
00:42:48.860
and more anxious. Their activity level was down. People who were able to be active, um, they,
00:42:55.320
they were faring better, but, uh, and people shifted why they wanted to be active. So instead of being
00:43:00.720
active to like physically look good, they were trying to be active to like feel better mentally.
00:43:07.800
Um, but there was this mental health paradox where there, they wanted to work out for their
00:43:13.260
mental health, but their mental health was getting in the way. So they were too stressed or anxious to
00:43:18.340
exercise and they lack the motivation, which is the symptom of depression. And so we created a toolkit.
00:43:23.960
It's, it's, it's available on my website, neurofitlab.com. And basically it goes over some evidence-based
00:43:31.180
tips, but essentially it's, you know, like keep in mind in those states, you know, some is better than
00:43:38.080
none. Consistency is key. And it's back to this idea that, you know, yeah, there are these benchmarks
00:43:44.160
that we want to meet in terms of what's best for the brain body, but every little bit counts. And
00:43:50.700
some movement is better than no movement, especially when it comes to your mental health.
00:43:55.120
And so having, taking like a much more compassionate approach to exercising and, um, you know, taking off
00:44:02.420
the intensity and putting in the time. I personally found this to be really, uh, beneficial. Um, like you
00:44:09.080
said, during the pandemic, I had been, I'd started training for this Ironman and I had prior to the
00:44:15.440
pandemic, I had been going out, you know, training pretty vigorously, but once the pandemic hit and
00:44:21.780
the uncertainty of the situation, it caused so much personal stress in my life that when I would go
00:44:28.660
out for these long runs or these vigorous runs, I would start like panic, like my body would go into
00:44:34.320
this panic attack mode. Um, and so I had to learn to just essentially take off the intensity. So I'd put
00:44:41.020
in the time, but it wasn't at that intensity that I, that I was used to, you know, because I wasn't
00:44:48.280
in that same mental state as I had been before. And so doing those check-ins with your body is really
00:44:54.080
important and being just really compassionate with yourself and, and understanding that, you know,
00:44:59.440
it is really when it comes to your life and your health and your wellbeing, consistency is really the
00:45:05.160
goal. Okay. So yeah, the takeaway there, if you're having a hard time getting started with an
00:45:09.020
exercise program, change your mind of what an exercise program has to look like. I think a lot
00:45:13.640
of people think, well, it's got to be like an hour long of intense, whatever. It doesn't have to be
00:45:18.920
like, if it is, if you get like 60 minutes of day walking, it's broken up in 15 minutes throughout
00:45:23.960
the day, start there. And also make sure you pick something you enjoy. If you, if you hate, uh,
00:45:30.400
marathon running, like don't do that because you're not going to do it.
00:45:36.060
Well, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and
00:45:39.500
your work? Cause in your book, what's great, besides all this research you highlight, you
00:45:42.400
also provide some, uh, starter templates for people for exercise programs. So where can they
00:45:47.000
learn more about that? Yeah. So my book's called Move the Body, Heal the Mind. Um, you can order it
00:45:52.480
anywhere books are available for purchase. I have a website that gives some background on the book.
00:45:58.420
Um, Jennifer Heiss. So J E N N I F E R H E I S said.com. Um, and I, I had mentioned my Neurofit Lab
00:46:08.860
website. Um, I'm on Instagram, dr.jenniferheiss. Follow me there or on Twitter at Jennifer Heiss.
00:46:15.380
Fantastic. Well, Jennifer Heiss, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.
00:46:19.260
My guest today was Dr. Jennifer Heiss. She's the author of the book,
00:46:21.860
Move the Body, Heal the Mind. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find
00:46:25.840
more information about her work at our website, jenniferheiss.com. Also check out our show notes
00:46:30.160
at aom.is slash move the body. You can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this
00:46:34.680
topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at
00:46:46.520
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00:46:51.080
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00:47:26.620
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