The Art of Manliness - Move the Body, Heal the Mind

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.100 When we think about the benefits of exercise, we tend to think of what it does for our body,

00:00:15.200 making us leaner, stronger, and healthier. But my guest is out to emphasize the powerful effect

00:00:19.900 physical activity has on our brains too, and just how much our bodies and minds are connected.

00:00:24.660 Dr. Jennifer Heiss is a professor, the director of the NeuroFit Lab, which studies the effects

00:00:29.060 of exercise on brain health, and the author of Move the Body, Heal the Mind. Today on the show,

00:00:34.040 Jennifer and I first discuss how physical activity can help treat mental disorders.

00:00:38.160 She shares the way that low to moderate intensity exercise can mitigate anxiety,

00:00:42.180 and how short bouts of intense exercise can be used as exposure therapy for treating panic disorders.

00:00:47.400 We also talk about the phenomenon of inflammation-induced depression, and how exercise can

00:00:51.660 alleviate it. And Jennifer shares how exercise can strengthen someone's attempt at sobriety,

00:00:55.960 as well as prevent addiction in the first place. From there, we turn to the way exercise can not

00:01:00.660 only mitigate mental maladies, but actually optimize the mind. Jennifer shares how physical 1.00

00:01:04.980 activity fights aging and can enhance your focus and creativity. We discuss how exercise can improve

00:01:09.780 your sleep, how it can be used to shift your circadian clock, and whether it's okay to work out close to

00:01:14.260 your bedtime. After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash move the body.

00:01:35.440 All right, Jennifer Heiss, welcome to the show.

00:01:37.740 Thanks so much for having me.

00:01:38.740 So you are the director of the NeuroFit Lab at McMaster University in Canada. What do you

00:01:44.200 research at the NeuroFit Lab?

00:01:46.140 Yeah, so my lab studies the benefits of exercise for brain health. So we look at the benefits of

00:01:52.000 exercise for our mental health, cognition, and in the prevention of Alzheimer's disease.

00:01:56.700 And how do you start exploring that connection between physical activity and our mental health?

00:02:00.880 So it was back in graduate school, I was studying sort of the fundamentals of neuroscience.

00:02:06.000 So how does the brain represent who we are as people and our memories? And it became really

00:02:11.960 clear to me that something was not quite right with my own brain. I was having some pretty severe

00:02:16.760 anxiety, some intrusive thinking. And I went to the doctor, they recommended I try an antidepressant.

00:02:25.960 I was very reluctant. And then a friend recommended I try cycling. And magically, those bike rides soothed

00:02:33.460 my mind, they quieted my mind. And it really had a profound shift, not just in my personal life,

00:02:39.260 giving me a lot of peace, but also in my professional life, because I became fascinated

00:02:44.780 with understanding how exercise was having such a profound effect on the brain. And so that's where

00:02:50.520 it all began back in grad school. And we've been intensely studying it ever since.

00:02:56.140 And this idea of there's a connection between our bodies and our mental health. This is, I mean,

00:03:02.500 this, it's been going on for, I would say 50 years, but this is a break from Descartes,

00:03:07.760 right? Who said, famously said the brain and the mind are separate, right? The body is just the

00:03:13.120 machine. And there's a soul inside the machine. And the body doesn't really have effect on the mind.

00:03:18.740 But what the research is showing is, no, we are our minds. Our body is our minds.

00:03:23.540 Yeah. Oh gosh. Descartes, he did a lot of damage. I mean, it was important, the mind-body dualism that

00:03:31.280 he set forth, because prior to that, the body was really mystified, like a spiritualized, religious,

00:03:40.320 like, and the study of it couldn't take place. So he had to kind of separate the mind and the body,

00:03:46.460 kind of spirit and body to advance medicine. But in doing so, he removed basically like the shoulders

00:03:55.380 up from the study of medicine for such a long time that we don't really, we don't fully understand how

00:04:01.640 the brain works. And we don't fully understand how to take care of our mind, what the biological

00:04:08.040 bases are of mental health. But yes, you're right. We are absolutely paving the way. New research is very

00:04:14.440 exciting. And we're starting to piece things together. So you got a book out, it's called

00:04:18.780 Move the Body, Heal the Mind, where you make a very reader-friendly summary of this research you've

00:04:24.460 been doing at your lab. And you explore how exercise and physical activity can help different types of

00:04:30.860 mental health issues. And the first one is anxiety. And I'm sure all of us have read the articles or

00:04:36.300 heard the podcast about how anxiety is on the rise in the West. What does your research show about

00:04:41.180 exercise's effect on anxiety? So exercise has a really profound effect on reducing anxiety symptoms

00:04:48.400 and the effects are felt immediately after we exercise. So you go out for your workout and in

00:04:54.460 that sort of acute phase, as soon as you're done, you know, when you're like, oof, done, that gives us

00:05:00.600 a huge reprieve in our anxiety levels. But even if we consistently go back to exercise, we get less

00:05:07.660 less anxious. Now, there's kind of an interesting play here with intensity of exercise. So when you're

00:05:17.220 feeling especially anxious, so if you're already in a stressful situation in life, for example,

00:05:27.320 then intensive workouts may not be the best mode to go to because the exercise stress will add on to the

00:05:36.640 stress in your life. And vigorous exercise, as you know, mimics the symptoms of anxiety. So your heart

00:05:44.680 will race, it'll be difficult to breathe. And for a lot of people, this can create a panic attack

00:05:52.100 situation where, you know, the heart is racing so fast that they're afraid they're going to have a heart

00:05:58.160 attack. So when it comes to exercising for anxiety, just kind of check in with yourself because

00:06:04.900 sometimes too intense is not good. And the research shows that at that low to moderate

00:06:11.140 intensity, you can really get a lot of benefits. And the reason why is these lighter intensity

00:06:19.380 exercises release this neurochemical called neuropeptide Y. And essentially, this is like a

00:06:25.400 resiliency factor that bathes the brain, it bathes the fear centers, the amygdala, and helps to

00:06:31.380 essentially quiet those centers down. So it's having this biochemical effect to give you that

00:06:37.840 anxiety relief.

00:06:39.340 Yeah. The neuropeptide Y, I've read studies where they've looked at Navy SEALs. And I think they

00:06:44.900 typically have more neuropeptide Y than the general population. It might be a genetic thing and like,

00:06:50.620 they're just being selected for that inadvertently. But you're saying that exercise, even if you don't

00:06:55.360 have Navy SEAL levels, neuropeptide Y, it can increase it. Is that increase immediate?

00:07:00.700 Yeah. The increase happens immediately after, and it lasts for about 30 minutes afterwards.

00:07:06.220 Now, the research done so far has only shown that you have to do the exercise to get the boost. In

00:07:12.540 neuropeptide Y, there's no kind of residual effects over the long term. So this is why consistency is key,

00:07:19.920 so that every workout that you put in, you get that boost. Now, the cool thing about the Navy SEAL

00:07:25.260 studies is that not all Navy SEALs have this abundance of neuropeptide Y. And the ones that

00:07:32.920 don't have as much, they're the ones most likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder. So this

00:07:38.660 is really a protective factor for the brain against trauma and stress.

00:07:43.800 Okay. So you get the immediate boost of neuropeptide Y when you exercise, and that can help. And if you

00:07:49.820 do exercise consistently, it can stave off anxiety or mitigate it. I mean, is there anything else that

00:07:55.180 goes on with exercise that helps prevent anxiety in the long run? Like, let's say you do some intense

00:08:01.980 exercise when you're not in a state of stress. Does that have any type of an effect on long-term anxiety?

00:08:07.840 Yeah, absolutely. So when we think about the stress response,

00:08:11.240 a lot of anxiety stems from like a maladaptive stress response. And the stress response

00:08:17.260 is this balancing act between the sympathetic nervous system, like that fight or flight response,

00:08:22.720 and the parasympathetic nervous system where the rest and digest. And when we use exercise,

00:08:28.920 like in a state of calm, essentially we're training up our stress response. So we're activating the

00:08:36.180 parasympathetic nervous system when we're vigorously going. And then as soon as we stop,

00:08:41.200 we are flexing our parasympathetic nervous system, that rest and digest, so that it becomes stronger

00:08:48.320 and better able to help us recover from stress. And so by continuously like hitting the stress system

00:08:55.380 with exercise, we can actually strengthen our stress response, not just for exercise stress,

00:09:01.940 but for all stressors in our life. And so ultimately what happens is that when we experience a stressful

00:09:09.000 situation in our life, yeah, it will activate the sympathetic nervous system, but our parasympathetic

00:09:14.040 nervous system will be really strong and better able to engage so that we stay more calm and less

00:09:20.420 reactive. Okay. And I also, you mentioned in the book, you've also done research, there's been research

00:09:25.340 done on, let's say someone's got severe anxiety and they're actually getting talk therapy for it,

00:09:29.680 exposure therapy. Combining them with exercise can actually give that a boost, correct?

00:09:34.260 Oh yeah. That's like a super cool finding. Now this, this is a bit tricky. So people with

00:09:40.220 severe anxiety or like panic disorder, when, before I was talking about how anxiety symptoms really mimic

00:09:48.120 the symptoms of vigorous exercise, right? So the heart racing, difficulty breathing, difficulty

00:09:52.780 concentrating. So this, this vigorous exercise is actually can act as an exposure therapy for people

00:10:00.100 who have panic disorder. So most, most people with panic disorder, they avoid exercise. They hate it. They

00:10:08.100 especially avoid vigorous exercise because it evokes those symptoms that they fear the most, right? So

00:10:14.440 there's this anxiety sensitivity that makes them really sensitive to vigorous exercise. But it turns out that

00:10:21.540 vigorous exercise is the medicine that they need, but in really short baby doses. So for example,

00:10:29.560 one way to sort of micro dose intense exercise into their life would be just doing like a few seconds of

00:10:36.060 sprint. And the idea is that it exposes them. So you, you sprint all out for like a few seconds and your

00:10:43.900 heart immediately picks up. It's difficult to breathe. You stop and everything comes back down.

00:10:51.380 And you realize you're safe, but it gives you that exposure to those symptoms that you fear the most.

00:10:57.960 And you, you know, over time with the repetition of this, the exposure of this, eventually those

00:11:03.500 symptoms lose their power and control over you. And you're not afraid of them anymore. And that then

00:11:09.120 transfers into the panic disorders that you feel in your life.

00:11:13.180 That's really interesting. And I imagine too, besides the neuropeptide Y increasing and strengthening the

00:11:17.920 parents, empathetic systems, I imagine exercise, just moving your body gets you out of your brain,

00:11:22.660 right? And part of the problem with anxiety is you're just worried about stuff that's not

00:11:25.860 really happening and moving your body like takes you away from that and kind of gets you back into

00:11:31.300 just the present.

00:11:33.100 Oh yeah. A hundred percent. So the mind, it has one track, you know, we can only think about one thing at

00:11:38.240 the time. And when we're, when we're, our heads a mess with anxiety, we're, you know, focused on

00:11:44.320 negativity and just getting the mind to think on something else like the breath. This is, you know,

00:11:50.560 meditative techniques often focus on attention to the breath, but you can couple that with exercise.

00:11:55.140 So attention to movement, attention to breath. You don't just have to be sitting still, you can be

00:12:00.240 moving and it doesn't just have to be yoga. It could be running or weightlifting. The point is you're

00:12:05.360 focusing sort of on the here and now, and it's grounded in the body.

00:12:10.100 Okay. So for anxiety to sort of prevent anxiety or reduce it in the long run, do that intense stuff

00:12:16.020 because it's going to make you more resilient. But if you're feeling stressed out right now,

00:12:20.520 take it easy because that might just add to the stress. So like maybe a walk, for example,

00:12:24.720 would be the thing you'd want to do.

00:12:26.900 Perfect. Yeah, that would be great.

00:12:29.060 Okay. Let's talk about another issue that's been on the rise in the West and that's depression.

00:12:33.200 And you started the book talking about, you know, the usual response from many general

00:12:37.240 practitioners. You had this experience yourself. You go in, you're just like, man, I'm, it's been

00:12:41.240 like a couple of weeks. I'm just feeling gray. I'm just feeling really down. Well, the GP will say,

00:12:45.580 well, you know, here's an antidepressant. Why were you hesitant to take the antidepressant? And

00:12:50.300 what are some of the problems of relying on antidepressants to treat depression?

00:12:54.060 Yeah, I was reluctant to take the antidepressant, you know, partly because these drugs have

00:13:02.260 a profound effect on the whole brain, not just for the intended benefit to reduce depression. And,

00:13:10.000 you know, I was pretty scared of what alterations would take place. And so I wanted to just at least

00:13:17.260 explore alternatives. And for me, fortunately, my symptoms were mild. I mean, some people don't have

00:13:23.880 that luxury. Their symptoms may be too severe and they may need immediate help. And the

00:13:30.400 antidepressant can be really beneficial and transformative for some people. So I want to

00:13:34.620 make sure that that message is clear, that it's not, I'm not anti-antidepressants, but I do think that

00:13:42.160 having options is really important for people. I mean, the first line of defense for most

00:13:50.100 general practitioners or doctors is to prescribe an antidepressant. And we've seen that on the rise,

00:13:58.180 especially for mild forms of depression that may benefit from other alternatives like exercise. And

00:14:05.620 so I think it's important that, you know, we educate our medical practitioners on the benefits of these

00:14:14.340 other therapies and sort of equip them with the tools. I don't think it's their fault. I just don't

00:14:19.940 think that they're trained. They're trained really to prescribe drugs and for ailments. And so I think

00:14:27.940 that it really, it comes back to Descartes, actually, you know, this biomedical model and we need much more

00:14:35.120 of a holistic approach to our health.

00:14:37.080 Well, something you talk about in the book is that even when someone is given an antidepressant,

00:14:41.580 they don't always respond to it. And that's because depression, it isn't homogenous. You know,

00:14:46.900 there can be different causes for it and it may not be a serotonin problem. The depression could be

00:14:52.060 caused by something else. And one of the sources it could be, the sources of depression, it could be

00:14:56.660 inflammation. And we actually had a guest on a few years ago talking about the inflammation-depression

00:15:02.580 connection. But can you, can you kind of summarize what we're discovering about the connection between

00:15:07.720 inflammation and depression?

00:15:09.560 Yeah, it's super fascinating. And this, I think, is, is the form of depression on the rise because

00:15:16.200 it's linked to chronic stress. So when we are experiencing chronic stress, as many people have

00:15:24.100 in the last several years, what happens is that the body was never intended to deal with stress at

00:15:31.840 such a chronic level. It was really designed to kind of deal with it acutely. So the predator or

00:15:37.900 whatever the threat would be immediately in the physical environment, and then it would either be

00:15:42.720 dealt with or not, and then the stress would go away, right? So it wasn't like today in modern life,

00:15:49.120 like there's, you know, stress after stress after stress, day after day after day. We worry,

00:15:54.940 which creates more stress. The uncertainty of situations create even more stress. And so this

00:16:00.620 chronic stress that we're facing day in and day out is really damaging the body. And what it does

00:16:08.060 is it, it starts to damage the cells, like physically damage the cells. And this launches a sterile immune

00:16:16.640 response. And so it's sterile because there's no bacteria or virus in the body. It's just the damaged

00:16:23.180 cells from the stress. And so the immune system launches an attack against these damaged cells.

00:16:31.220 This elevates inflammation. And that inflammation doesn't just stay in the body, but it can start

00:16:36.340 infiltrating into the brain. And when the brain has too much inflammation, it creates a lot of problems

00:16:43.420 for the natural functioning of the neurons. And so things don't function as well. And this can lead to

00:16:49.920 dysfunctions and neurochemicals, but it can also lead to kind of slowing of processing, brain fog,

00:16:56.320 depressed mood, and there's the source of depression. Not necessarily coming from the root cause of like

00:17:03.140 something you're born with, a biochemical deficit in serotonin production or some other neurochemical,

00:17:09.900 but a lifestyle, the chronic stress of life is damaging the body in ways that are affecting the mood.

00:17:18.520 Yeah. I mean, like when you're sick, think about that. When you're sick, not only do you feel bad,

00:17:22.580 but like you get depressed, like you just want to hunker down in a blanket. And so, I mean,

00:17:26.920 it kind of makes sense that there's a connection there. When you feel depressed, you don't want to

00:17:29.840 do anything. When you're sick, you don't want to do anything.

00:17:32.340 Yeah. Yeah. And that's like an evolutionary advantage, right? Because if you're kind of antisocial

00:17:37.340 and you're home alone in bed, you know, you're not going to spread the bacteria or virus around.

00:17:42.860 And so, that was actually like an evolutionary advantage. But now, if inflammation is being

00:17:49.360 caused not by a bacteria or virus, but rather stress, then that advantage is no longer. And

00:17:55.020 instead, it just looks like major depressive disorder.

00:17:57.660 Can we, are we able to screen for inflammation-caused depression?

00:18:01.100 Well, technically, yes. The research suggests that certain cytokines, these pro-inflammatory cytokines,

00:18:08.520 can actually are elevated more in people who have depression, especially drug-resistant depression.

00:18:16.360 TNF-alpha is one of them. However, it's certainly not routine clinical practice,

00:18:22.980 even though we've known about this research for about 10 years. So, you know, again, we need to

00:18:28.500 sort of catch up the medical community to some of the newer research on mental illness and how to

00:18:33.060 treat it.

00:18:34.020 So, one thing they've discovered with people with inflammation-caused depression is that

00:18:38.480 exercise helps. But this is counterintuitive because exercise is a stressor. It causes

00:18:45.660 inflammation. If you do a heavy weightlifting session, your muscles get inflamed to repair

00:18:50.380 the damage you've done. So, how can something that causes inflammation reduce inflammation to

00:18:56.680 help reduce depression?

00:18:58.300 So, this is a beautiful thing about exercise. You're right. You go out for a hard run or a

00:19:03.540 vigorous workout and the body has an acute inflammatory response. And this is to protect

00:19:09.260 your body while you're, you know, pushing it hard. But as soon as you stop, the exercising

00:19:15.640 muscles then release these myokines that essentially act like an inflammatory cleanup crew. These anti-inflammatory

00:19:24.120 cytokines then make the body, they clean up all that inflammation that you produce from exercising

00:19:30.300 and then some so that over time, your body becomes less and less inflamed. And this is such a really

00:19:36.760 interesting way that we can kind of rebalance, create homeostasis back in the body when it comes to

00:19:43.080 inflammation.

00:19:44.360 That's interesting. When we had the podcast guest about inflammation and depression, he was researching

00:19:48.700 sauna use to reduce inflammation. Because like what's in, you know, you heat your body up

00:19:55.180 and it causes inflammation and it can reduce inflammation in the long run.

00:20:00.080 Yeah. I think all of these sort of acute like micro dosing of stress, like the cold showers or the

00:20:08.260 holding of the breath or the sauna, the hot exposure or exercise, they're all micro challenging the body

00:20:16.080 in a way that creates this counter response. And then over time, that counter response, the recovery

00:20:22.800 from stress becomes stronger and makes the body more resilient to stressors. So I think they're all

00:20:29.680 kind of working with a similar mechanism on the stress response, which is super cool.

00:20:34.020 In your lab, have you guys found if a particular type of exercise works best for depression or is it

00:20:38.360 any type of exercise?

00:20:40.360 Yeah. So the research has a pretty interesting, clear benefits. So when it comes to aerobic exercise,

00:20:48.620 we're really talking like every step counts and the longer that you go, the better. So every

00:20:55.200 additional 10 minutes that you add onto your aerobic exercise, you get an additional boost in mood up to

00:21:02.460 one hour. When it comes to resistance exercising, like weightlifting or yoga, tai chi, the more intensive

00:21:09.980 you are with the weights or the resistance, the bigger the benefit there when it comes to depression.

00:21:16.960 Interesting. Okay. Let's move on to another issue some people are struggling with and that's addiction.

00:21:21.480 How can exercise help in addiction recovery?

00:21:24.580 So when someone gets addicted to a substance, what happens is that the substance is addictive because it

00:21:34.860 increases dopamine in the brain to supernatural levels. And what ends up happening is the reward

00:21:41.020 system within the brain ends up like locking down. So it strips away receptors. And what this does is

00:21:47.580 it makes it really difficult to get enough dopamine response from natural things in life. So they're no

00:21:54.360 longer rewarding. They no longer induce that feeling of reward. And so what ends up happening is that when

00:22:02.900 an addict then gains tolerance and dependency on the substance of abuse. Now, when they enter sobriety,

00:22:12.440 what ends up happening is that, okay, now they've taken away that supernatural dopamine and all they're

00:22:18.260 left with is the natural dopamine, you know, the natural stimuli in the world that induces just a small

00:22:23.500 amount of dopamine. And it's not enough, at least at first, because the brain needs to recover. And

00:22:29.480 it will recover, which is a really fascinating, amazing feature of the brain that it heals itself.

00:22:36.940 But it takes time. And exercise, because it releases dopamine as well, can help speed that up. So it

00:22:46.220 helps speed up the healing process. It helps crush cravings within that first, you know, few weeks of

00:22:52.540 sobriety. And it can be a real helpful tool for people who are in recovery. Another super beneficial

00:22:59.480 effect of exercise for addiction recovery is, you know, especially if you're exercising with a group,

00:23:05.660 it creates a brand new social circle for you to have additional support. And for most recovering

00:23:14.120 addicts, you know, they've lost a lot of their friends because they were all tied up with the

00:23:21.000 addiction and the drug use. And so building this new community of support and friendship through

00:23:28.840 exercise has been extremely beneficial for a lot of recovering addicts.

00:23:34.060 Okay. Let's just make sure I understand. So when you take a really strong drug,

00:23:37.700 you basically blast your dopamine receptors, correct? And it's just like...

00:23:41.220 That's right.

00:23:41.880 Right. And so to get the feeling back, you have to take more and more of the

00:23:45.280 addictive substance, whatever. What you're saying, when we stop the addictive substance,

00:23:49.700 it gives our brain a chance for those dopamine receptors to get back to like a normal state.

00:23:54.380 Yeah.

00:23:54.860 And exercise can just help that process along. Is that how it works?

00:23:58.820 Yeah.

00:23:59.400 Okay. And then you also talk about how exercise can actually be a great way to prevent

00:24:04.160 addictions, correct?

00:24:06.060 Yeah. And this is again, back to the idea that exercise is a form of reward and can give the brain

00:24:14.740 the dopamine that it seeks. So teenagers are especially experimental. They're seeking novelty

00:24:23.220 and new experiences. And in fact, there's even a theory that suggests that that's like by design,

00:24:29.680 like the brain is just like hungry for new experiences. And this helps them to explore the

00:24:35.840 environment around them, to understand what the world is like, and then they're better equipped to

00:24:42.160 function in it. And so exercising helps provide the brain, the dopamine that it seeks within these

00:24:50.480 novel, rewarding experiences. And if exercising is not there, or these novelty experiences are not there,

00:24:59.060 then there is a temptation to, a greater temptation to go seeking dopamine out in less helpful

00:25:07.280 situations like in alcohol and drugs of abuse. And so the research is really fascinating on that,

00:25:15.660 you know, for teens, for young people who are more active, they're less likely to experiment with

00:25:22.680 drugs of addiction, drugs of abuse, they're less likely to become addicted. And so, yeah, it seems to

00:25:29.020 be really beneficial. But there's this really interesting study I like that it contrasted,

00:25:35.960 you know, the different forms of education that we give students and young people about drugs. So

00:25:43.640 there's like the anti-drug campaign, just say no to drugs, you know, this is your brain on drugs,

00:25:48.280 that kind of don't do drugs campaign, versus teaching kids how to live a healthy lifestyle that

00:25:55.520 includes physical activity. And what the research found was that kids are less likely to try and

00:26:02.140 experiment with drugs if they've been educated on a healthy lifestyle rather than when they've been

00:26:08.660 educated to do the anti-drug campaign. Because if you think about it, I mean, when I was a teen,

00:26:15.520 if you told me not to do something, I was just more curious about why I wasn't supposed to do it.

00:26:21.900 And so, to me, this makes a lot more sense. And having that exercise there,

00:26:26.820 as part of that healthy lifestyle, it gives the brain the dopamine that it craves.

00:26:31.500 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:26:35.560 And now back to the show.

00:26:37.640 Okay, so let's talk about another thing you were focusing on. You don't just focus on,

00:26:41.140 you know, preventing, you know, mental illness or mental health issues, but you want to use

00:26:44.580 exercise as a way to help people have a more fulfilling life in all aspects of their life.

00:26:48.680 And one thing you found is that exercise can help in the aging process. What does exercise do to

00:26:54.360 keep our brains young? Yeah. So exercise has an incredible effect on the aging brain. So it

00:27:01.620 essentially helps keep our brain young. So as we get older, we, well, the brain, even through

00:27:08.820 adulthood, can produce brand new neurons, brand new born neurons within the hippocampus, which is

00:27:15.960 critical for memory and learning. And it's also the brain region that's devastated by Alzheimer's

00:27:20.760 disease. So by creating more new neurons there, we boost our memory, keep our brain sharp and young

00:27:28.660 and help prevent Alzheimer's disease. Well, it also increases this substance, BDNF. Is that what it

00:27:35.440 is? Yeah. What is BDNF? So BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, and this is a growth factor

00:27:43.320 that helps support the survival functioning of these brain cells. And I like to think of it as like a

00:27:51.040 fertilizer. So it helps them really thrive, the brain cells really thrive and function well. And

00:27:57.260 exercise produces brain BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor. And there's this super cool

00:28:03.360 new research out. Primarily it's been shown in animal models, and we're trying to bring it into human

00:28:09.140 models in my lab now. But it's looking at this link between lactic acid or lactate and BDNF. So

00:28:16.400 lactate is produced by the muscles when they get into that anaerobic state. You know, when

00:28:23.180 when we're in an anaerobic state, what happens is lactate starts to accumulate and the accumulation of

00:28:33.140 that lactate spills out into the blood. It travels to the brain, reporting directly to the hippocampus.

00:28:40.240 And there it produces, it sort of activates BDNF, which then can help fertilize and fortify the cells

00:28:48.720 there. So it's a really fascinating link between like higher intensity exercise and the lactate that

00:28:53.920 it produces. And then this growth factor BDNF that actually helps to support brain cells.

00:28:59.460 Okay, so it can exercise can help neurogenesis along. Has there been studies that show that can help

00:29:05.100 prevent or reduce our risk for dementia?

00:29:08.440 Yeah, so research from my lab, we did like a head to head comparison between genetic risk factors and

00:29:15.300 physical inactivity. And there's a genetic risk factor APOEE4. It's a it's an allele that puts people

00:29:23.340 at an elevated risk and about 25% of the population has it. And we compared that genetic risk to physical

00:29:32.220 inactivity and found that people who are physically inactive had a similar risk of developing dementia as

00:29:38.020 those who were genetically predisposed. So it's I have this saying, you know, you can't change your genes,

00:29:44.260 but you can change your lifestyle. And it can have as big of an effect on your dementia risk as your

00:29:51.860 genetic profile. So, you know, we often think about dementia as being sort of a biological disease,

00:29:57.940 but we do have a lot of control. And this simple thing of moving the body can actually help prevent

00:30:04.900 that.

00:30:05.760 And you also found your research to going back to the social component of exercise, that it can,

00:30:10.840 if you add in sociability into exercise, it actually turbo charges the age benefits, correct?

00:30:15.920 Yeah, it's really cool. So the especially for older adults who can suffer from loneliness and social

00:30:23.640 isolation, exercise provides this social benefit. And there's this cool study, I really like it. It, it, it showed

00:30:32.020 that older adults who work out together, have better health benefits than those who work out alone, even if the

00:30:40.140 ones who are working out together are not working out as hard. So it really, it really highlights the

00:30:46.340 benefits that we get from being with others. And I think, you know, the last couple of years has been

00:30:51.280 a testament to how important social connections are and exercise is such a catalyst for creating those

00:30:57.700 social connections.

00:30:59.160 So another thing that people want to be better at, at least I do sometimes, you know, oftentimes is I want

00:31:04.000 to be able to focus better, right? I'm at work, I'm just, I feel distracted. And your labs actually found

00:31:09.340 research that exercise, physical activity can help with focus. What does that research say?

00:31:14.500 Yeah, so basically, I mean, most of us do our work sitting, right? Or with little movement. And when we sit for

00:31:22.420 prolonged periods of time, essentially, the brain gets starved of the vital nutrients that it needs to really think

00:31:28.720 and focus. And so every 30 minutes, get up for a two minute movement break, you know, it doesn't have to be like

00:31:36.280 anything vigorous. It could just be a stretch, walk around the office, walk around the room, go get a

00:31:44.240 drink of water. That subtle movement from sitting to standing and then moving a little bit is enough to

00:31:51.340 help increase brain blood flow, especially to the prefrontal cortex. So the prefrontal cortex is our

00:31:57.800 most evolved brain region in humans. And it is, it's governing all of that focused attention that we

00:32:05.460 need to like inhibit distractions and stay on task. And it needs a lot of blood flow, it needs a lot of,

00:32:13.060 you know, energy in the form of glucose and oxygen. And so we can give it that through exercise. And

00:32:18.820 research in my lab, we've shown that these short exercise breaks can actually help students

00:32:23.460 prevent them from mind wandering during class so they can stay on task better. And then when you're

00:32:28.320 on task, you're remembering things later so they perform better on their tests afterwards.

00:32:33.220 Yeah, we've had guests on the podcast talking about the need to revive physical education in schools.

00:32:39.120 Because like a lot of schools, I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the United States,

00:32:42.200 they've pulled back on PE because they want to spend more time studying for these, you know,

00:32:46.700 state mandated tests. But some schools have found, actually, when they had the kids spend more time

00:32:51.840 doing, you know, vigorous exercise, just vigorous play, scores go up.

00:32:56.880 Yeah, it's counterintuitive. And I think that a lot of parents, like, and school administrators

00:33:02.660 think that, okay, we just need to cram in more knowledge and information, but the brain needs

00:33:07.920 to be primed to accept that knowledge. And exercise helps to prime it so it's ready for learning.

00:33:14.200 And then it can learn better and learn more efficiently and more effectively. So it's something

00:33:19.860 that we're really pushing here. Yeah. So I think the dose you gave in the book for focus is like

00:33:27.400 for kids, they need like 60 minutes of vigorous movement, right? So just like they get out of

00:33:34.540 breath and sweaty, basically. I think it's like five times or seven. It's like every day is ideal,

00:33:40.140 correct, isn't it? For young kids. And then when you're a teenager, it's like three to four days

00:33:44.520 is the minimum effective dose. Yeah. And I think I'm not a stickler on like getting the maximum.

00:33:51.160 I just want people to move more. You know, I don't want to put too much stress on parents. They already

00:33:56.840 have a lot of stress, but like, you know, just moving more, it accumulates throughout the day,

00:34:03.160 get it in, you know? And so just focusing on that and being mindful of how much you're sitting and for

00:34:09.680 how long and breaking up that sedentary time is really important. What about creativity? Is there

00:34:16.400 a connection between creativity and physical activity? Yeah. Yeah. So this is really cool. So

00:34:21.920 the brain, you know, I talked about the prefrontal cortex and it kind of has these two modes. So one of

00:34:30.340 its mode is like focus, you know, it inhibits distraction and, um, we, we call that inhibitory

00:34:38.140 control. The, the, the second mode is this mental flexibility, which is kind of like daydreaming,

00:34:44.520 mind wandering, creative thinking, thinking like divergently outside the box. Um, and so it,

00:34:51.120 it has these two modes. And when we sit and stay focused for so long, what ends up happening

00:34:58.700 is that that mode gets super tired and it can't do that very well. And then it just kind of does

00:35:05.120 unproductive thinking. But when we, when we exercise, what happens is we can switch the context. So we

00:35:11.780 switch our context from sitting and focusing to exploring the environment, which, which flips the

00:35:19.460 switch to that, uh, mental flexibility. And this it's, it's, it's sort of the idea, like when you're,

00:35:25.920 when you're moving in, in space and doing something different, it's very interesting to the brain.

00:35:32.380 And you can kind of, um, in states of flow, for example, when it's challenging, but you're in the

00:35:38.080 moment, you can actually couple these two different modes so that they're actually both on at the same

00:35:45.020 time. And this gives you like the most powerful brain function possible.

00:35:50.340 So you're a cyclist, you run, you do the triathlon stuff. Like when you're on a run or a long cycle,

00:35:56.200 do you get a lot of ideas for your work?

00:35:58.620 Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The best ideas come when I'm on my run.

00:36:04.320 Yeah.

00:36:04.700 And so it's like, you're, you know, you're, you're uninhibited by, you know, focused thinking.

00:36:10.080 The idea is that when, when we're kind of free to allow our mind to wander,

00:36:15.520 then it gets more access to the deep repertoire within our brain that may not have bubbled up to

00:36:22.320 the surface. If we're just focused on one single point, you know, one single stream of thought.

00:36:28.100 Um, so it, it, it just opens up the channels. Um, and the research shows, you know, this, um,

00:36:36.000 when we look at different sports, certain sports are better able to unleash that creativity. So, um,

00:36:43.100 net and combat sports that have an opponent and they involve this improvisation and this play

00:36:50.680 between you and an opponent, this creates a lot more creativity within the individual than say,

00:36:57.260 for example, um, gymnastics or figure skating, which require you to memorize a predefined set

00:37:04.120 of moves. So there's less creativity involved in that. And the idea is of when we train our body to

00:37:10.480 move more creatively, we train our brain to think more creatively. And so even if you're not into

00:37:17.000 sports, you can apply this to your own workout program by, you know, changing things up. So

00:37:22.320 take a different walking route or, uh, try a different activity, even if it's just for fun,

00:37:28.940 these additional things, these novelty experiences that we add to our life, help the brain to stay

00:37:34.760 in that flexible mode. Uh, another connection you found in your lab, uh, to our quality of life

00:37:41.160 is exercise and sleep. What's the connection there? Yeah. So exercise, uh, is so beneficial for sleep.

00:37:50.040 Um, it's one of the greatest gifts it gives. And, um, so it works kind of two ways. So exercising during

00:37:57.700 the day, um, it helps us expend more energy. When we expend more cellular energy like ATP,

00:38:04.940 it produces this by-product called adenosine and adenosine is a natural sleeping aid. So when

00:38:10.840 adenosine builds up to a certain threshold, it triggers sleep. And so when we move more during

00:38:15.860 the day, we build up more adenosine and we can, we can sleep better at night. We sleep deeper at night.

00:38:20.780 Um, the other way that exercise works is that it can help retrain or resynchronize brain time to real

00:38:29.440 time. So, um, we've all experienced this when traveling through different time zones, you know,

00:38:35.820 you, that jet lag that you experience when your brain time is just really out of sync with real

00:38:40.760 time. And it just takes some time to kind of realign the two. Well, exercising can help speed that

00:38:47.380 realignment up. So we know that the sun is a really powerful cue of what time it is for the brain and

00:38:54.060 the brain can kind of link up with the sun, but exercising actually has similar qualities as the

00:38:59.900 sun does to help reset the suprachiasmatic nucleus, that master clock within the brain to help, uh, to

00:39:08.940 help us, uh, sync up our time better. Okay. So you're having trouble sleeping, exercise during the day.

00:39:14.820 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Is there like a time that's best for that to get the benefits of exercise and sleep?

00:39:21.180 Yeah. So some people may have heard it's bad to exercise at night and the research shows actually

00:39:27.200 it's okay as long as you're not going super vigorously to the point that your heart rate's

00:39:35.120 still elevated 25 beats above baseline when you're about to go to sleep. So that's sort of the key.

00:39:42.280 But if you, you know, a lot of people like to work out just before they go to bed. And if it's not,

00:39:47.320 you know, if you're, if you're able to get your heart rate back down before you sleep,

00:39:51.460 then it will be very beneficial. But, um, there's this cool research that was done.

00:39:57.240 They use these micro ultra short sleep cycles where they'd like have people sleep for one hour,

00:40:04.480 wake for one hour and do that for three days straight to just wipe out the circadian clock.

00:40:09.940 And then they would introduce exercise at different times of the day to see how it impact,

00:40:16.480 how it would shift the clock. And so what they found was that, you know, if you're someone who

00:40:23.920 likes to stay up late and you need to start getting up earlier and you need to shift your clock a bit

00:40:30.460 earlier, then exercising first thing in the morning around 7am is beneficial. Um, but if you're,

00:40:38.000 you know, someone who needs to sleep in more and stay up a bit later than exercising in the early

00:40:45.460 evening is best for them.

00:40:46.860 So I think a lot of people might be listening to this and thinking, yeah, I know I got to exercise

00:40:50.840 more, not only for my physical health, but yeah, not my mental health, but man, it's really hard to

00:40:56.060 get going. It's hard to stick to a routine. And your lab has actually researched why people struggle

00:41:01.940 to start and stick with an exercise program. Uh, what have you all found?

00:41:05.800 Yeah. I mean, it's hard. It's, it is hard. The brain is against us. It's kind of this relic of the

00:41:11.180 evolutionary past when, you know, we needed to conserve energy to survive. And so when we weren't

00:41:16.560 expending energy to, to like survive, to hunt and gather our food, then, uh, the brain was just like,

00:41:24.620 okay, let's just, let's just chill, you know, let's just be lazy here. Um, but now we don't have to

00:41:30.100 really move to survive, at least most of the time. Um, you know, there's no imminent danger, no,

00:41:36.700 you know, need to hunt and gather our food. Uh, and so the brain sees voluntary exercise as an

00:41:44.120 extravagant expense and it goes out of our, out of its way to prevent us from doing it. You know,

00:41:48.980 that, that negative talking around, oh, I'm too tired. Oh, we don't have time to do it. You know,

00:41:54.180 this, this is just that, you know, that brain trying to conserve energy. And so there are certain

00:42:00.660 things you can do to kind of remind yourself that resources are plenty of a really fun,

00:42:06.300 trick is to like swish some sugary drink in your mouth. And the trick is you don't actually even

00:42:11.660 have to drink it. You could just swish it around and spit it out. And that actually helps to, uh,

00:42:16.220 reduce the effort you feel when you're first starting your workout, um, to kind of essentially

00:42:21.320 break the inertia and remind the brain that resources are plenty. Um, but I think it's,

00:42:27.080 it's also important to remember, um, that it is harder to move when we're not mentally well.

00:42:33.780 So at the very beginning of the pandemic, we conducted some research, surveyed 1600 people

00:42:39.860 asking them, you know, how are you doing? You know, what's your physical activity like?

00:42:44.460 And not surprisingly, people were really, you know, they were stressed. They were more depressed

00:42:48.860 and more anxious. Their activity level was down. People who were able to be active, um, they,

00:42:55.320 they were faring better, but, uh, and people shifted why they wanted to be active. So instead of being

00:43:00.720 active to like physically look good, they were trying to be active to like feel better mentally.

00:43:07.800 Um, but there was this mental health paradox where there, they wanted to work out for their

00:43:13.260 mental health, but their mental health was getting in the way. So they were too stressed or anxious to

00:43:18.340 exercise and they lack the motivation, which is the symptom of depression. And so we created a toolkit.

00:43:23.960 It's, it's, it's available on my website, neurofitlab.com. And basically it goes over some evidence-based

00:43:31.180 tips, but essentially it's, you know, like keep in mind in those states, you know, some is better than

00:43:38.080 none. Consistency is key. And it's back to this idea that, you know, yeah, there are these benchmarks

00:43:44.160 that we want to meet in terms of what's best for the brain body, but every little bit counts. And

00:43:50.700 some movement is better than no movement, especially when it comes to your mental health.

00:43:55.120 And so having, taking like a much more compassionate approach to exercising and, um, you know, taking off

00:44:02.420 the intensity and putting in the time. I personally found this to be really, uh, beneficial. Um, like you

00:44:09.080 said, during the pandemic, I had been, I'd started training for this Ironman and I had prior to the

00:44:15.440 pandemic, I had been going out, you know, training pretty vigorously, but once the pandemic hit and

00:44:21.780 the uncertainty of the situation, it caused so much personal stress in my life that when I would go

00:44:28.660 out for these long runs or these vigorous runs, I would start like panic, like my body would go into

00:44:34.320 this panic attack mode. Um, and so I had to learn to just essentially take off the intensity. So I'd put

00:44:41.020 in the time, but it wasn't at that intensity that I, that I was used to, you know, because I wasn't

00:44:48.280 in that same mental state as I had been before. And so doing those check-ins with your body is really

00:44:54.080 important and being just really compassionate with yourself and, and understanding that, you know,

00:44:59.440 it is really when it comes to your life and your health and your wellbeing, consistency is really the

00:45:05.160 goal. Okay. So yeah, the takeaway there, if you're having a hard time getting started with an

00:45:09.020 exercise program, change your mind of what an exercise program has to look like. I think a lot

00:45:13.640 of people think, well, it's got to be like an hour long of intense, whatever. It doesn't have to be

00:45:18.920 like, if it is, if you get like 60 minutes of day walking, it's broken up in 15 minutes throughout

00:45:23.960 the day, start there. And also make sure you pick something you enjoy. If you, if you hate, uh,

00:45:30.400 marathon running, like don't do that because you're not going to do it.

00:45:34.820 That's right. Absolutely.

00:45:36.060 Well, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and

00:45:39.500 your work? Cause in your book, what's great, besides all this research you highlight, you

00:45:42.400 also provide some, uh, starter templates for people for exercise programs. So where can they

00:45:47.000 learn more about that? Yeah. So my book's called Move the Body, Heal the Mind. Um, you can order it

00:45:52.480 anywhere books are available for purchase. I have a website that gives some background on the book.

00:45:58.420 Um, Jennifer Heiss. So J E N N I F E R H E I S said.com. Um, and I, I had mentioned my Neurofit Lab

00:46:08.860 website. Um, I'm on Instagram, dr.jenniferheiss. Follow me there or on Twitter at Jennifer Heiss.

00:46:15.380 Fantastic. Well, Jennifer Heiss, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:46:17.780 Thank you so much.

00:46:19.260 My guest today was Dr. Jennifer Heiss. She's the author of the book,

00:46:21.860 Move the Body, Heal the Mind. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find

00:46:25.840 more information about her work at our website, jenniferheiss.com. Also check out our show notes

00:46:30.160 at aom.is slash move the body. You can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this

00:46:34.680 topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at

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The Art of Manliness - January 25, 2023

Move the Body, Heal the Mind

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