The Art of Manliness - One Man's Impossible Quest — To Make Friends in Adulthood

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.880 Several years ago, there was a tweet that went viral, which said that of Jesus' many

00:00:14.580 miracles, perhaps his greatest was having 12 close friends in his 30s.

00:00:19.000 As people say, it's funny because it's true. 1.00

00:00:21.960 When my guest date came face to face with the anemic state of his own friendships, he

00:00:25.240 set out to try to do the miraculous himself and make friends in middle age.

00:00:28.700 His name is Billy Baker, and he's a journalist and the author of We Need to Hang Out, A

00:00:32.220 Memoir of Making Friends.

00:00:33.880 Billy and I begin our conversation with the problem of male loneliness in the modern age

00:00:37.240 and how it befell him in his own life.

00:00:39.040 We then discuss how men and women do friendships differently, the way men do theirs shoulder

00:00:43.040 to shoulder, what this means for what male friendships need to be built around, and why they require

00:00:47.320 what Billy calls velvet hooks.

00:00:49.460 Billy then shares how he started his project, which experimented with different ways to

00:00:52.600 recover and create connections by rekindling his old friendships, but why that ultimately

00:00:56.380 didn't scratch the friendship itch for him.

00:00:58.140 Billy then describes what did, a kind of casual fraternity for middle-aged men that he started

00:01:02.680 and how he was inspired by something called the Men's Shed Movement Australia and its philosophy

00:01:06.960 that men need somewhere to go, something to do, and someone to talk to.

00:01:10.880 We end our conversation with Billy's takeaways for making friends in adulthood, including

00:01:14.480 the need for embracing intentionality and social risk.

00:01:17.540 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash makefriends.

00:01:28.140 All right, Billy Baker, welcome to the show.

00:01:32.960 Hey, thanks for having me.

00:01:34.260 So you got a book out, We Need a Hangout, A Memoir of Making Friends.

00:01:38.220 And this is all about you trying to make friends as a 40-year-old middle-aged man.

00:01:43.560 So what began your quest to make friends as a middle-aged man?

00:01:47.400 Well, I got conned by an editor with one of the oldest lies in journalism, which is, we

00:01:53.400 have a story we think you'd be perfect for.

00:01:56.100 So this came from a guy at the Boston Globe magazine.

00:01:59.480 And I marched down to his office, sat down, told him to lay it on me.

00:02:03.500 And he said, we want you to write about how middle-aged men have no friends.

00:02:07.120 And, you know, I had that, you know, brief existential crisis sitting there as he's rattling

00:02:13.820 off all these dire health consequences of having a poor social life, defining what we've

00:02:21.120 come to understand is really a loneliness epidemic in America.

00:02:24.520 And while all this is going on, all I'm doing in my head is trying to get out of this story

00:02:28.320 because this was not, I mean, this is not something I wanted to think about or think

00:02:34.660 I was a part of.

00:02:35.420 So I, uh, the first thing I did was, you know, on the walk back to my desk, just kind

00:02:40.740 of go through the, the names of my head of those guys I think of as my best friends,

00:02:45.860 my lifelong friends.

00:02:46.960 And it was, uh, it was a sad inventory and that, you know, immediately it was like, God,

00:02:52.320 I haven't seen that guy in a, in a couple of months.

00:02:54.720 And it's been years since I've seen him.

00:02:57.740 And, and, you know, by the time I made the short walk back to my desk, sat down and thought

00:03:03.300 it through, I realized, you know what?

00:03:04.620 I really was perfect for this story because not because I was, I was unique in any way,

00:03:11.000 but because I was painfully typical.

00:03:13.840 And, you know, as I'd come to learn from this pitch, I just sat through, like being a typical

00:03:19.520 guy right now is someone who's suffering from high loneliness and someone who's susceptible

00:03:24.220 to basically every health consequence.

00:03:26.760 So you don't want all because of a lack of friends in your life.

00:03:31.520 Well, let's talk about that.

00:03:32.560 So do we have any statistics on the state of American male friendship in particular?

00:03:37.780 Well, so the, the general thought is that men are suffering more than women, but it is 0.99

00:03:43.900 not an exclusive, but the, the data is that the average American man and woman, which there's

00:03:52.060 this thing called the UCLA loneliness scale.

00:03:54.480 You just answer a few questions and it gives you a rating.

00:03:58.120 That rating for the average American is what they consider to be high loneliness.

00:04:03.540 And when I took the, the UCLA loneliness scale, I, I scored dead average.

00:04:08.240 So the stats are, I mean, they're all over the place.

00:04:12.140 Some of them are a bit, uh, apocryphal, but the data is there.

00:04:15.980 The average person, particularly the average male is suffering from loneliness, even in loneliness

00:04:22.680 is a perception.

00:04:23.660 It's this idea where you're the social connections you desire don't meet the ones you actually

00:04:29.220 have.

00:04:29.800 So, you know, you can be lonely in a crowd.

00:04:32.340 You can have lots of friends that feel lonely.

00:04:34.120 You can be, you know, completely isolated and feel perfectly content, but the average person

00:04:39.760 is not feeling like their social needs are being met.

00:04:43.500 And it's only getting worse and worse as the years go by right now.

00:04:48.260 The each generation of Americans is measurably lonelier than the ones that have come before 0.96

00:04:54.160 in our loneliest generation in American history is our youngest.

00:04:59.240 Okay.

00:04:59.320 So people are lonelier than they were before.

00:05:01.640 What are the, you mentioned there's, there's health consequence to this.

00:05:04.880 What are some of the dire health consequences of loneliness?

00:05:07.520 I mean, it's everything.

00:05:08.720 It's truly everything.

00:05:09.820 You don't want to get heart disease, cancer, dying.

00:05:14.240 Everything is magnified by being measurably lonely or even living alone.

00:05:19.500 You know, your chances of dying go up dramatically.

00:05:22.320 If you don't have a strong social circle, you know, every time I say these things, they seem

00:05:27.320 like I'm laying it on pretty thick, but the data is there.

00:05:31.380 It's, it's healthier to eat Twinkies with your friends and to eat broccoli alone.

00:05:36.020 Like it really, and if you had told me that, you know, it's that simple, if you don't want

00:05:41.140 to see the doctor, see your friends, I wouldn't have believed you, but I've delved into this

00:05:45.300 science and every, every, you know, obesity, diabetes, like all these things that you, you,

00:05:51.580 it seems like impossible that your friendship circle could affect these things.

00:05:57.180 But the, the, the data's there.

00:05:59.280 It really does.

00:06:01.060 And a lot of those things you mentioned, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, et cetera,

00:06:04.740 like that hits men a lot more than women.

00:06:06.620 It does.

00:06:07.580 And also what hits men a lot more of these things that are referred to as deaths of despair,

00:06:12.980 alcoholism, drug abuse, suicide, deep depression.

00:06:16.480 See, these are, I mean, the suicide rate for men is appalling.

00:06:20.840 And a lot of it is attributed to this fact that, you know, men don't have the social circles

00:06:26.360 that they need. 1.00

00:06:27.380 I mean, you know, every time some, some idiot shoots up a school or whatever it is, like 1.00

00:06:31.900 they, they dig into this person's life and guess what? 1.00

00:06:34.620 They're a loner, you know?

00:06:36.180 So let's talk about you.

00:06:37.900 So when your editor asked you this article, you were like, initially like, that's not

00:06:41.160 me.

00:06:41.420 I'm not lonely.

00:06:42.520 But then you did that walk back and went through like, I haven't really, I don't, I don't have

00:06:46.640 any friends.

00:06:47.060 I haven't seen my friends in a couple of months or years.

00:06:48.880 I mean, how did you end up sort of, I mean, I wouldn't say you're, you don't want to call

00:06:53.560 yourself friendless, but you're not hanging out with your friends as often as you like at

00:06:57.620 age 40.

00:06:58.020 How'd that happen?

00:06:59.400 Yeah.

00:06:59.620 I think it happened without even noticing, you know, I w I was checking off a lot of boxes, you

00:07:04.360 know, I was doing the things that, that seemed like I should, you know, was supposed to be

00:07:09.200 doing.

00:07:09.580 I had a good job.

00:07:10.520 I had a wife and kids and, you know, I was taking care of getting the groceries at the

00:07:15.940 end of the day.

00:07:16.520 But I, I think what I was guilty of was I just wasn't budgeting any time in the daily calendar

00:07:22.840 for friendship.

00:07:24.540 And I think I had moved friendship into this category of things I do when the important

00:07:28.940 stuff was over and it's never really over.

00:07:31.620 And I think I was also guilty of putting a lot of pressure on my wife to be the, the

00:07:37.940 keeper of the social calendar.

00:07:39.680 You know, I'd be like, when are we getting together with so-and-so?

00:07:41.740 Why aren't we doing this?

00:07:42.840 You know, when can we hammer that into the calendar?

00:07:45.480 And, and another thing I think I was, I was counting on was that I would make a lot of,

00:07:54.740 you know, good connections through my children.

00:07:57.320 You know, when I look back at my childhood and picture my parents hanging out with their

00:08:00.800 friends, they were the parents of the kids I hung out with, you know, and they'd meet

00:08:04.720 each other on the sidelines or wherever it might happen.

00:08:07.760 And that wasn't happening for me as well.

00:08:10.660 So I think I was the saddest part of my whole story was that I was treating it as like normal.

00:08:15.760 Like, oh, this is just, this is just what happens at middle age.

00:08:18.620 You know, your, your friendships disappear and then, you know, we'll all reconnect on

00:08:22.180 the golf course.

00:08:23.980 No.

00:08:24.420 Yeah.

00:08:24.500 I think that happens just for a lot of, I think particularly men, you get sort of lazy

00:08:29.520 with relationships.

00:08:30.680 You just, you, you, when you were, we've had another guy, a psychologist on the podcast

00:08:34.880 talking about this.

00:08:35.720 So the problem with men is, and this happens with boys and girls in the beginning, early

00:08:39.660 on in your life, you have these systems set in place for yourself where you can make

00:08:43.260 friends, there's school, there's sports, there's activity.

00:08:45.480 And then you get into adulthood and you really don't have that anymore.

00:08:49.120 It's like, it's finally up to you.

00:08:50.860 Women tend to, you know, take on that, that mantle and start, you know, being proactive 1.00

00:08:55.900 about making friendships.

00:08:57.460 Guys tend to still rely on structures outside of themselves to make friends.

00:09:01.880 So they rely on work for friends.

00:09:03.980 They rely on sports, their kids' sports to make friends with the sports dads, or they

00:09:08.220 rely on their wife to like manage the social calendar. 0.73

00:09:10.780 And that doesn't get you very far.

00:09:13.460 Yeah.

00:09:13.700 And so there's a fundamental difference in the way that men and women interact.

00:09:17.840 And so women talk face to face and men talk shoulder to shoulder.

00:09:22.200 We know this from studies where sociologists creep around and take photos of people interacting,

00:09:27.180 and then they analyze them for patterns.

00:09:28.740 And with, with men, it's just a very clear picture.

00:09:33.520 And it is two men standing shoulder to shoulder, side by side.

00:09:38.020 And so knowing that, you also can understand why your strongest connections are from things

00:09:45.540 like activities.

00:09:46.660 You know, we know that men are measurably make their strongest friendships through school,

00:09:51.360 through sports, through military service, through things like that.

00:09:54.040 And then when you get into middle years of life, those things are largely gone.

00:09:58.260 And with it, you're losing these chances to sit shoulder to shoulder.

00:10:02.920 And when I first learned this, it really, it made me understand why I would never get

00:10:08.080 super psyched when someone would say, oh, we should get together for coffee or something

00:10:11.880 like that.

00:10:12.400 Or when, you know, my wife would get off the phone from having a long chat with a friend

00:10:17.060 and say, oh, why don't you call so-and-so?

00:10:18.840 And it's like, I don't, that just doesn't feel like how we connect.

00:10:21.700 You know what I mean?

00:10:22.420 I don't know about you, but every time I talk to one of my friends on the phone, feels

00:10:25.520 like 90 seconds later, someone's saying, all right, good talk.

00:10:29.120 I'll catch up with you later, you know, and it disappears.

00:10:32.220 And there's a study showing that men hate the phone and women can keep strong connections

00:10:37.620 that way.

00:10:38.580 But so what goes missing in these vital years in the middle of life are these shoulder

00:10:43.420 to shoulder opportunities.

00:10:45.080 And so when I set out on this journey to write this book, you know, I wrote an article initially

00:10:50.740 about this loneliness epidemic and kind of raised my hand and admitted that I was a card

00:10:55.240 carrying member of it, that article went crazy viral.

00:10:58.620 It went, it was, it became for a period, the most popular article the Boston Globe had

00:11:03.740 ever published.

00:11:04.920 And the responses from men were not questioning me about the dire consequences.

00:11:11.040 They weren't asking for any more evidence of the cancer or that they had the cancer.

00:11:15.060 The question was, what's the cure?

00:11:17.160 And so the book was me trying to figure that out.

00:11:19.600 Like on the surface, the cure for loneliness is friendship, but actually making it work

00:11:24.560 when you get to this point in life is wildly tricky.

00:11:27.840 And so what I, what I had to do was ultimately figure out, I use the phrase velvet hooks.

00:11:32.760 I had to find these velvet hooks that were these soft connectors, a way to be friends with

00:11:39.980 my friends, something that we could do some activity that was just gentle enough to not

00:11:45.020 be another ironclad commitment on the schedule, but just fun enough to actually make us follow

00:11:49.720 through and, you know, put something on the calendar, make it happen.

00:11:53.280 And we, we know what these things are, right?

00:11:55.660 These are, these are your whatever, fantasy football leagues, weekly sports night, the

00:12:00.800 poker night, the book clubs, whatever they might be.

00:12:03.680 I mean, you know, I, I've never been to a book club.

00:12:05.740 They're very popular with women.

00:12:06.980 Every woman I talk to always says the same thing, which is, you know, we almost never discussed

00:12:10.960 the book, right?

00:12:11.680 It's this velvet hook just to get them together.

00:12:13.900 So for guys, it was about, for me, trying to find these velvet hooks that would get us

00:12:20.200 into that shoulder to shoulder position.

00:12:22.740 And that's when often like the magic happens, right?

00:12:25.040 Like it's, you know, I, I think as I've been doing these rounds, talking about the book,

00:12:29.660 I think a lot of people think that I'm pushing for this idea that men need to get together

00:12:34.400 and have real vulnerable conversations about their feelings.

00:12:37.840 I think what men need to do is get together.

00:12:39.820 And then if it gets a little deeper through these moments, then that's great.

00:12:44.980 That's the magic.

00:12:45.840 But for the most part, you know, when I get together with my friends, I mean, we act like

00:12:49.000 juveniles, we screw around, nothing serious comes up.

00:12:51.840 I come home and my wife says, oh, how's so-and-so's mother doing? 0.99

00:12:55.300 And I'm like, I don't know.

00:12:57.200 Didn't, didn't mention it.

00:12:58.360 Right.

00:12:58.600 You know, but there's something about simply getting together that makes me a better,

00:13:03.200 better in all my, you know, my other jobs as a dad, as a husband, as an employee.

00:13:08.060 Well, yeah, and to this idea that when people talk about friendships, we often put the platonic

00:13:13.660 ideal of a friendship or relationship as what a woman would want, right? 0.94

00:13:17.720 So you have to like, if you're going to have a friendship, you have to like bear souls to

00:13:21.100 each other.

00:13:21.540 You got to like talk, have these deep conversations.

00:13:24.300 And for guys, that's, that's typically not, like you said, it's shoulder to shoulder.

00:13:27.560 Usually guys are just doing stuff together.

00:13:29.440 And for some reason we say, well, that's, that's not good.

00:13:33.580 And so guys are like, well, if I can't have these deep heart to heart conversations, because

00:13:37.400 that's, it's not, that's the ideal, you know, and I can't make that happen for me.

00:13:41.620 I might as well not even try to have friends.

00:13:43.800 I might, I might as just, it's no point if I can't, but I think that's wrong head.

00:13:47.220 I think you should be like, okay, generally men and women are different, different.

00:13:50.420 They have different ways of how they have relationships and it's okay for guys just to get together.

00:13:54.440 Like you said, just to hang out, just do stuff together.

00:13:57.780 It could just be completely, I mean, like women would look at it and be like, well, nothing 1.00

00:14:01.720 really happened there.

00:14:02.600 Like there's no connection, but for guys, like a lot of connection happened.

00:14:06.680 And I think guys that connect a ton through ball busting, you know, I think that women 1.00

00:14:10.720 have a real, like my wife sometimes is like appalled at the stuff, you know, my friends

00:14:15.800 and I will say to each other, but it's like, that's how we share our love.

00:14:19.200 You know, I'm not going to say, I love you. 0.96

00:14:20.400 I'm going to say, I hate you. 1.00

00:14:21.380 I'm going to pick you apart. 1.00

00:14:22.480 Right.

00:14:22.820 Like I say this to my kids all the time.

00:14:25.320 I know how I look good because my friends will tell me how terrible I look.

00:14:29.480 Right.

00:14:29.680 You know, like I walk in wearing a new shirt.

00:14:31.940 Everyone has a comment.

00:14:32.980 Right.

00:14:33.340 And it's like, yeah, they like the shirt.

00:14:34.980 That's their way. 0.69

00:14:35.900 But I think women don't communicate in those ways. 1.00

00:14:38.300 Right.

00:14:38.480 I call that sort of like, you know, ball busting, aggressive nurturing.

00:14:42.120 It's aggressive, nurturing.

00:14:43.740 Aggressive, nurturing.

00:14:44.920 Yeah.

00:14:45.800 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:14:50.100 And now back to the show.

00:14:51.560 All right.

00:14:52.100 So you, you wrote this article.

00:14:54.020 People are like, what do I do about it?

00:14:55.520 So you started figuring out things to do.

00:14:56.900 And one thing you, the first thing you did, you tried to reactivate friendships you had

00:15:01.440 when you were in high school, a young man, college age.

00:15:05.060 And you begin by going and reaching out to an old friend of yours you had since you were

00:15:08.820 a kid named Rory.

00:15:10.740 Let's talk about Rory.

00:15:11.560 Like, when did you realize that you had completely drifted apart from this guy that had been a big

00:15:16.720 part of your life?

00:15:18.380 Yeah.

00:15:18.600 It was the moment I published this article.

00:15:21.280 I had mentioned Rory and another buddy named Mark in the article.

00:15:24.840 And when it came out, I emailed them the link.

00:15:27.220 And Rory said, oh, that's going to make what I'm about to tell you even worse, which is that

00:15:31.640 I moved to Vienna and I forgot to tell you.

00:15:35.480 And I mean, this was the guy I would have considered my best friend in the world.

00:15:40.280 And it happens like so quickly without either of us noticing.

00:15:46.260 And so I, I, I hopped on a plane, flew over to Vienna.

00:15:50.520 And it was like, I, we, we got to save this thing.

00:15:53.020 And it was, and we did, and Rory and I are close again.

00:15:58.020 And the beginning of this journey in general was just that, me trying to get the bands

00:16:02.880 back together to kind of repair or strengthen friendships from the past.

00:16:07.840 And that was great.

00:16:09.320 But it, it kind of hit a wall in a, in a strange way where I, I still didn't have, you know,

00:16:19.980 so I took a leave from the globe to write this book.

00:16:23.480 I'm sitting in a room, I'm feeling, I'm doing the loneliest thing I know of, which is writing,

00:16:28.360 staring at a screen.

00:16:29.660 And I still didn't have an answer to the question of, do I have anyone to hang out with on a

00:16:35.620 Wednesday night?

00:16:36.600 Like, it was great to reconnect with Rory.

00:16:38.960 It was great to fly to Vienna and, you know, a professor, you know, best friendship forever.

00:16:43.700 But I, I, I was, I was still lacking friendship in my daily life.

00:16:51.380 And by lacking that, I was lacking all the health benefits that come with it.

00:16:55.280 And so I did, I set out to do something that is just remarkably uncool, which is I set out

00:17:01.480 to make new friends.

00:17:03.500 It's, it's awkward.

00:17:05.400 It, it, it's needy.

00:17:07.020 Like you can smell it on someone when they're coming on a little strong.

00:17:10.200 Right.

00:17:10.540 And, and I was inspired in a way by this thing I heard Mindy Kaling say on her TV show, which

00:17:16.820 was that a best friend is not a person, it's a tear.

00:17:20.700 And so I started thinking about it where, you know, if you ask men to name their best

00:17:26.380 friends, we know from surveys that they'll say someone from childhood or high school or

00:17:30.260 maybe college, but there's a cutoff after a certain point.

00:17:33.180 And I think the idea for men is that you have to go way back with somebody for, for them to,

00:17:38.160 to really be, you know, a meaningful connection.

00:17:41.660 But the truth was I needed meaningful connection in my day to day.

00:17:46.520 So what I did was set out to try and make new best friends.

00:17:49.940 Didn't feel like, you know, now that I'm absorbing this, this throwaway line, Mindy Kaling, it's

00:17:55.180 that on a, on a sitcom, you know, now that I'm, I I'm operating on this idea that adding

00:18:00.440 new best friends is not betraying my best friends of the past, but instead sort of, you know,

00:18:04.800 putting more people on this pedestal, I set out to connect with guys that I had, for lack

00:18:11.960 of a better word, felt a spark with, you know, the, these were guys I'd met him, however,

00:18:16.840 but you know, they, you, you know, sometimes you meet someone, you're like, you know what,

00:18:19.760 I feel like I connected with that person.

00:18:21.420 I could be, I could be friends with them and spark is, is usually reserved for romantic

00:18:25.880 relationships, but you know, I, I think it happens in, in friendship in general.

00:18:29.480 So I, you know, what I ultimately did was try and start a, you know, a, a middle-aged

00:18:36.060 dad fraternity that hung out on Wednesday nights and it had some ups and downs, but I will say,

00:18:42.120 you know, it's all chronicled in the book, much of it's a dumpster fire.

00:18:45.180 But now years later, I can say I added four new best friends to my life.

00:18:49.900 And those are the best friends that are part of my daily life.

00:18:52.560 And that's where I'm getting the benefits from all of this.

00:18:56.260 All right. So let's talk about that middle-aged men's fraternity you started because you reached

00:19:00.340 this point where you realize that friendship and adulthood is going to take intentional effort,

00:19:05.220 like a natural spark could happen, but then you'd have to be proactive to, to fan that flame of

00:19:10.200 friendship. And something else you realized along the way is that friendships aren't that dissimilar

00:19:15.620 for romantic relationships. So you try different things to make connections with friends.

00:19:20.380 And the thing that really worked out, this men's fraternity was the big idea that got you to the

00:19:25.620 point where you're hanging out with friends on a regular basis. So what you did, you invited a

00:19:29.760 bunch of guys you felt a spark with. These are acquaintances from different parts of your life,

00:19:33.780 work, I think a CrossFit gym, that you wanted to get to know them better.

00:19:38.160 And the inspiration for this idea was this thing that happened in Australia called

00:19:42.340 Men's Shed. For those who aren't familiar with that, what is the Men's Shed movement?

00:19:46.420 A Men's Shed is exactly what it sounds like. So it started in Australia when a guy named Dick McGowan

00:19:54.780 was at a senior center and he threw a fit. And his fit was basically that all the activities at the

00:20:01.720 senior center were geared towards women, you know, the, the knitting and the bingo and all these 0.99

00:20:06.880 things. And it was like, this isn't what guys want. So he, he says, you know, the shed out back

00:20:11.880 that nobody uses. I'm cleaning out that shed and that's for the guys. That's going to be the men's 1.00

00:20:16.820 shed. That's where the guys are going to go hang out. And so these old retired guys in Australia

00:20:21.300 started hanging out in the shed. They love it. They get a little bit of media attention in a

00:20:28.460 newsletter for a bank. Somehow or another, this thing goes viral in, uh, in the pre-viral days.

00:20:35.780 And it leads to, in the blink of an eye, a thousand of these men's sheds opening up in

00:20:42.800 Australia. They're everywhere. And what they are is there's no like central theme or, or thesis behind

00:20:51.380 them. It's just a place for men to get together. And the Dick McGowan had a saying that men need

00:20:58.000 somewhere to go, something to do and someone to talk to. And that's what the men's sheds are. 0.88

00:21:02.000 Some of them take on a, you know, they might become like a woodworking shed or we, we fix

00:21:07.260 motorcycles at this one, but in general, they're open to anyone. They're also open to women, but

00:21:11.680 they're largely used by men. And the health data on the men who go to these things is that they seem

00:21:19.900 to live longer, healthier, happier lives simply from hanging out with some other guys. And that's,

00:21:27.620 you know, as opposed to, you know, right now my dad is, is recently retired and I, you know,

00:21:32.380 I'm worried about him sitting at home and watching too much law and order every day. And I, and I

00:21:36.600 wonder if having a place like that could change his life. But so the men's shed was an inspiration.

00:21:42.960 Also an inspiration for me was this, this thing. I heard an older guy in my, my town say one day,

00:21:48.860 which was, he was talking about something. He said, I can't go to that. I have Wednesday night.

00:21:53.040 And I was like, what's Wednesday night? Don't we all have Wednesday night? And he said, no, no,

00:21:57.240 it's just like basically this idea, this promise I made with a bunch of buddies years ago that on

00:22:02.760 Wednesday nights, if we're all around, we'll get together and do something, anything. We just need

00:22:06.580 to, just need to be together. And when I had heard that it was before I, you know, wrote this article

00:22:10.880 and took on this book, I filed it away. Like, oh, maybe, you know, someday I might need something

00:22:15.960 like that. Getting this assignment made me realize I needed it immediately. So I basically combined

00:22:21.680 the men's shed idea with the Wednesday night idea and opened a Wednesday night men's shed

00:22:26.820 in a barn in my community. And it's been a blast. Like it's, you know, it had some ups and downs

00:22:33.920 in that, like, we got together the first night. I told the spiel of, you know, what I was hoping

00:22:38.140 to do. Everyone had a laugh at my expense. We had a couple of beers. It was great. Second night,

00:22:43.360 everyone comes back and it's like, all right, wait, what are we going to do? We're just going

00:22:46.140 to sit around here and talk about our feelings like this isn't us. And quickly we, we needed

00:22:51.020 to find, you know, these activities, these things to do. And those activities are soft.

00:22:56.020 They're simple. You know, we, we, we light a big bonfire or we, you know, help the guy

00:23:00.460 build a BMX track in his backyard. Or we, lately we've been playing pickleball, which is

00:23:05.900 like, you know, if ping pong and tennis had a baby. And, you know, it's, it's things like

00:23:11.640 this that, you know, go back to this Dick McGowan guy, this Australian guy that threw a fit

00:23:16.900 and said, men, men need somewhere to go, something doing, someone to talk to. Like

00:23:20.540 by accomplishing those three things, I think I've changed my life and I've changed the lives

00:23:25.740 of the, the men that are coming to this little Wednesday night men's shed.

00:23:30.240 Yeah. So I've got similar things going on in my life with my, so there's like two groups

00:23:33.820 of friends I've got. So I've got, I belong to a book club, but we've been going through

00:23:38.500 like the great books of the Western canon. So we started like at the Iliad, we were finally

00:23:44.220 up to like Cervantes, Don Quixote right now, but we get to get like, we, but it's like

00:23:48.480 a regular thing. It's like the, the third Wednesday of every month we get together at

00:23:52.880 some guy's place to discuss. And the thing is like, you end up sort of discussing the

00:23:56.660 book, but then you just start bullcrapping about other stuff, just shooting the breeze

00:24:00.120 about whatever. And then the other one is I've got a group of friends where every other

00:24:06.160 Thursday or Friday, I think it's kind of been kind of screwy with, with COVID, but it's

00:24:12.000 like the sauna session, just getting a sauna. And we just talk, I mean, about nothing really,

00:24:17.800 or just sit there and just be miserable in the heat and then jump in the pool and cool

00:24:22.560 off and get back in. And it's great. We love it.

00:24:26.760 It's that simple, isn't it? Like, I mean, a lot of times I'll come home from one of these

00:24:31.920 Wednesday night things and it's like, I, on paper, I have nothing to show for it, you know,

00:24:36.660 but it's like, I, I wake up the next day in a better mood. You know, I, there, there's

00:24:41.100 something, something's been scratched that, that wasn't getting scratched before. And, uh,

00:24:46.780 it really is that simple. And, and I'm, I'm appalled that it, it turned out, the answer

00:24:52.380 turned out to be something that simple.

00:24:54.800 Uh, so you mean in the book, there was some ups and downs with this Wednesday night thing

00:24:58.280 at first it started off strong. Everyone was on board, but then you said it kind of fizzled

00:25:02.380 out for a while. And we've had those moments too, with, you know, various friends groups

00:25:07.580 we've, I've belonged to things go, are going great, but then they kind of fizzle out. What,

00:25:12.660 what happened with you? Like what, what caused it to fizzle out?

00:25:16.340 Huh? I think, so I think initially my biggest concern was that it would seem like it was my

00:25:23.860 thing. You know, I wanted it to be our thing, but it, it, I didn't want to have to be the person

00:25:29.760 that sent the text every Wednesday saying, you know, we're doing this. I didn't want to have

00:25:34.280 to be the cheerleader every time. But, uh, I realized it was, you know, if I didn't do that,

00:25:40.240 it wasn't going to happen. No one else wanted to take the reins. And then I think the biggest

00:25:44.520 thing we suffered from was a lack of purpose in a way, you know, like, uh, we were back to that,

00:25:50.580 that almost like face to face conversation, which is not what men are cut out for, not what any of us

00:25:58.420 were looking for. So it was a matter of finding activities, finding these velvet hooks, these

00:26:04.000 simple things that we could do to, to connect. And, um, and, and then it picked up, you know,

00:26:11.900 and then COVID arrived and, and that was interesting. Cause I think, uh, that was a moment for me. I don't

00:26:20.640 know if you felt like this happened to you as well, but all of a sudden it felt like every tribe I'd ever

00:26:25.800 been a part of every squad kind of circled the wagons, you know, it w it was the zoom chats with

00:26:31.740 the college buddies you haven't talked to in forever or the group texts or whatever it might

00:26:35.880 be. And there was something about COVID arriving that really re-strengthened the Wednesday night

00:26:41.360 crew where we realized, okay, we do need, we do need something here. And, you know, there's this

00:26:47.260 grand evolutionary question of like, why do we need friends? Right. And in the, the best guess is that

00:26:54.860 we have friends around for when, when it hits the fan, you know, like, uh, we, we feel like

00:27:01.080 we, we, we need someone that will have our back when it gets real. And COVID was the first time

00:27:05.940 in my life that it got real for everyone. And, um, I think the Wednesday night group really found

00:27:11.240 its footing finally by that feeling like we all needed a, a, a squad to have our back, someone

00:27:19.060 close by that could come in to assist us. How'd you guys adapt? Was it, did you guys

00:27:25.400 do zoom or just do outdoor stuff? Like what? We did outdoor stuff. It turned out. And again,

00:27:30.620 this is so painfully simple. Uh, I hate it took a while to get here, but like a fire was the,

00:27:37.240 the one thing we could do. We could light a fire, you know, on these cold nights, get together safely

00:27:42.080 outside. And there's something about sitting around a fire with guys that feels very primitive

00:27:47.760 and nurturing something simple as being triggered in your soul. And that for a while, you know, I

00:27:54.420 mean, we, I'm in new England and the winters here are miserable. And this past winter, this,

00:27:59.700 this COVID winter, I mean, we lit some fires that were obnoxiously large. I mean, it really became a,

00:28:05.800 a, a juvenile attempt to get the cops called on us for a, for a backyard fire. But you know what?

00:28:11.480 I mean, it was, I don't know that these things, these simple moments of magic are, are what has

00:28:19.960 really, you know, changed my life for the better this, you know, having to take on this assignment

00:28:25.520 and then take on this book was like the best gift, gift I've ever given myself. And it was a gift of

00:28:31.300 regular friendship. And it's the simplest things in the simplest ways it's gathering around a fire.

00:28:36.040 It's having a beer with a friend. It's farting around, it's ball busting. And at the end of the

00:28:40.980 day, like I, I feel better, you know, I, I, I can't, you know, I can't look inside of my body and

00:28:47.840 measure, you know, the, the, the, the effect it's having, but I have to believe in, in the health data

00:28:53.340 that says I'm a happier, healthier person. And I'm going to reap the benefits of this for years to come

00:29:00.680 if I simply keep these friendships up. You didn't talk about this in your book. I don't,

00:29:04.580 and I don't think it came up, but one issue I've seen with guys who's like, you know,

00:29:07.940 I want to make friends, but like my wife gives me a hard time. Anytime I try to go out and hang out

00:29:13.160 with my, my dude friends. Did you encounter that at all with, with guys you're trying to get to hang

00:29:19.040 out with you? Well, I, so here's the way I think that happens. I think that when you're, you're pairing

00:29:25.820 up, you know, you're getting to that point where you're getting serious with someone, every guy gets

00:29:30.260 that talk where it's like, all right, you need to stop spending so much time with the boys and start

00:29:34.360 spending more time with me. But then I think a reverse happens after you've been together for

00:29:39.200 a while where the, the woman's like, you need to get out of the house, you know, like you, you need 1.00

00:29:43.680 to call so-and-so. So I do think there's this sort of pageant performance of like, oh, if I'm out with

00:29:52.300 the guys and I, then I, oh, you know, I'm on the list. I better show up with flowers and chocolates

00:29:56.640 or something. Cause I, I was stayed out late with the fellas, but it, for me, at least in my

00:30:01.520 relationship, that's not the case. It's my wife is very supportive of this. And if anything,

00:30:06.680 this trip I've been on has influenced her in a very positive way. She's much more deliberate in

00:30:12.220 her friendships, much more protective of her time to do those things. But I do know, I mean,

00:30:18.460 every relationship is different. And I do, I do hear from some of the guys that like, you know,

00:30:23.360 they're in the doghouse for hanging out too much with the boys and they're going to have to skip this

00:30:27.720 one. Well, the other problem too, you see married guys run into is if they're going to make a friend,

00:30:33.340 they think, well, I got it. It's got to be a couple friend, like my wife. So the friend,

00:30:38.220 like the, the dude friend I make friends with, like my wife's got to be friends with that guy's 1.00

00:30:43.220 wife. And often that doesn't sink. Usually you love the dudes, you know, the dude, the dude's

00:30:48.400 awesome, but like your wives don't get along with each other. You're like, well, we can't, 1.00

00:30:52.040 well, don't do that. Just, it's okay. If you have your own friends, they don't have to be couple

00:30:54.920 friends. I mean, it's, it's a, I feel like that stuff, it's a, it's a cliche, but it's a cliche

00:31:00.440 for a reason. Like it, uh, the, I don't know if you saw John Mulaney when he hosted Saturday Night

00:31:06.500 Live not too long ago, his whole opening monologue was about how men have no friends. He stole my bit

00:31:13.620 basically, you know, but he says, he has this great joke. He says that dads don't have friends.

00:31:19.760 Uh, moms have friends and those friends have husbands. 1.00

00:31:24.920 And, and, and there's some truth to that. You know, I mean, they're, they're, especially,

00:31:30.420 I think, you know, when, when women are thinking of, of get togethers, it's in a, in a couple sense,

00:31:35.700 at least in my relationship, my wife's like, oh, if we're going to go to dinner, like let's have it 1.00

00:31:39.820 be with a couple that we both like, and not just one of your friends and his wife that I don't know,

00:31:45.320 or the, or the reverse, you know, one of her friends and the husband, I'm not crazy about.

00:31:49.000 I mean, those couple, I don't know if you have them in your life. I mean, when you do have those

00:31:53.100 couples where you are great friends with both of them, that's the best, you know,

00:31:57.400 especially, you know, if your kids are great friends, but like, I think a, you know, my problem

00:32:03.140 was I was relying on that is basically my social life. Like the, those few and far between dinners,

00:32:09.300 get togethers, weekends away with those other couples we had that sort of great connection with,

00:32:14.160 but you know, you need more, you need it on the day to day, you need, you just need to hang out.

00:32:20.800 You know, I mean, right now my, my kids are just finishing up their, their final bits of zoom

00:32:27.380 school. And then they start full-time in person in, in a week. And I mean, they're so looking forward

00:32:33.520 to just having daily friendship, you know, like, and not having it be something where they need to

00:32:38.720 have a scheduled event, you know, some play date organized by the parents, whatever it might be.

00:32:43.660 They just need that like day to day, you know, broing out with their buddies to, to, to scratch

00:32:50.580 something they're clearly not getting. So what are the big action point takeaways that you,

00:32:55.580 from your experience with trying to make friends that, you know, as a middle-aged dude, what,

00:32:59.600 what works, what doesn't work? I mean, yeah, you have to be intentional. You have to find

00:33:04.580 activities, you know, you need to, it needs to be activity-based that that's the glue for guys.

00:33:10.080 And I think that you, as part of being intentional, you need to be a little bit vulnerable. Like it's,

00:33:17.180 it's an awkward situation to put yourself in, to try and make friends or try and make a friendship

00:33:22.980 work. And I think guys are, are, you know, either naturally are raised to be uncomfortable being

00:33:30.020 vulnerable. But I will say this, anytime I made myself vulnerable, it was rewarded. You know,

00:33:36.100 it's what led to the, the special moments, the special connections. So it's a matter of,

00:33:42.900 you know, finding that activity. You may already have them. If you don't have friends, which I,

00:33:48.260 I've been hearing from a lot of people that it just fundamentally, like I don't have friends. I'm a,

00:33:53.520 I'm a lonely person for that reason. I mean, I was lucky to be someone who had friends and just

00:33:58.200 wasn't being friends with them. But if you are lonely, you have to look first, probably at the

00:34:02.760 activity. There's probably something you like. So go do that and connect with people who share that,

00:34:08.820 that interest. But it's just about making effort. You know what I mean? If I could give anyone some

00:34:13.060 homework at the end of this podcast, it's like, you know, text your buddies, you know, think,

00:34:17.720 close your eyes and think about that person you miss that you haven't connected with that,

00:34:21.200 that you, you would love to spend some time with and reach out and say, you know, I just heard 1.00

00:34:25.540 this idiot babbling on a podcast about friendship made me think of you. We, we need to hang out 0.99

00:34:29.980 and go from there. But it takes, you know, more than just saying that it takes, we need,

00:34:36.060 it's saying we need to hang out on this day, doing this thing. Can you be there?

00:34:40.200 And then sticking with it.

00:34:42.120 So maybe instead of saying vulnerability, we can re-brand it as social risk. You're taking a social

00:34:47.140 risk.

00:34:48.440 Yeah. It's, I mean, you know, the, of the, I, I tried a lot of things that were, I mean,

00:34:54.380 I tried to reunite my high school class. I had this thought experiment where I was like,

00:34:58.720 what was the best day I remember from high school. And it was senior skip day when, you know,

00:35:03.380 everyone kind of ditched school at the same time. We all, you know, felt like we were these real

00:35:09.260 rebels. And so I tried to bring it back. I was like, all right, on a Friday, let's all gather

00:35:14.660 in this field. We used to go to when we skip out of school and we'll play kickball and drink some

00:35:19.800 beers. But the point is you got to skip. We're going to do it on a weekday. And so many people came,

00:35:25.320 but as I was sitting in that beach chair, you know, when I got there early, you know,

00:35:30.020 sitting in a chair, a lot in this field, fingers crossed that anyone was going to show up.

00:35:35.100 That was as vulnerable as I've been in years. You know, I was scared. I was back in high school

00:35:41.560 again. And you know what? That vulnerability was rewarded. And so, yeah, the, what was the phrase

00:35:47.460 you just used?

00:35:48.400 Social risk.

00:35:49.560 Social risk. I took a social risk and I was rewarded.

00:35:52.820 So there's no manliness. Yeah. There's no manliness without risk.

00:35:56.400 Got to have risk.

00:35:57.380 I love it.

00:35:58.100 Love it.

00:35:58.520 Well, Billy, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:36:01.340 and your work?

00:36:02.800 So I'm a reporter at the Boston Globe, you know, constantly doing that. But the book is called

00:36:07.760 We Need to Hang Out. It's a hopefully a fun adventure with some takeaways. The best thing I

00:36:12.700 hear from people is that they find it relatable, you know, that I'm in many ways just an every

00:36:17.820 man with every man problems. And I found some every man solutions.

00:36:21.800 There you go. Billy Baker, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:36:24.720 Thank you.

00:36:25.820 My guest today was Billy Baker. He's the author of the book We Need to Hang Out. It's available

00:36:29.520 on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is

00:36:33.440 slash makefriends where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper in this

00:36:36.560 topic.

00:36:36.880 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at artofmanliness.com

00:36:48.680 where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written over

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00:37:19.640 Until next time, this is Brett McKay. Remind you not only to listen to the AOM podcast,

00:37:22.740 but put what you've heard into action.

00:37:32.700 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - April 21, 2021

One Man's Impossible Quest — To Make Friends in Adulthood

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