The Art of Manliness - Outdoor Competence With an Expert Backcountry Hunter

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast you may know

00:00:11.300 steven ranella as an expert hunter and the host of the meat eater series on netflix as well as

00:00:15.300 the meat eater podcast he's also an author and his latest book is the meat eater guide to wilderness

00:00:19.460 skills and survival today on the show we'll talk about the subjects behind both these projects

00:00:23.280 being with how steve found his way into hunting and conservation advocacy how he explains and

00:00:27.520 makes the case for hunting to those who are unfamiliar with it and the benefits that hunting

00:00:30.940 has brought into his life we then discuss how the barrier for beginners to get into hunting is

00:00:35.160 perceived as being higher than it really is and the more accessible way steve recommends getting

00:00:39.440 started from there we turn to the kind of know-how you should possess for undertaking any kind of

00:00:43.400 outdoor pursuit whether it's hunting camping or hiking steve shares why he recommends creating an

00:00:48.120 outdoors kit that you can grab for any expedition and what exactly to pack in it he then offers

00:00:52.520 suggestions on outdoor clothing and sleeping pads as well as the pros and cons of carrying one's water

00:00:57.180 in a camelback style bladder versus a nalgene bottle and why he favors the latter we also get

00:01:01.960 into steve's recommendations for a better alternative to gps and the importance of regular practice for

00:01:06.580 first aid and all these wilderness skills that we talk about and we enter conversation with steve's

00:01:10.560 approach to getting his kids into the outdoors after the show's over check out our show notes at

00:01:14.540 aom.is slash outdoors

00:01:16.640 all right steven rinello welcome to the show hey thank you for having me on i appreciate the chance

00:01:28.940 so you are the host of meat eater on netflix the meat eater podcast the author of several books you

00:01:34.080 got a new one out which we're going to talk about today the meat eater guide to wilderness survival

00:01:37.740 but before we do let's talk about your background because you become an advocate for hunting conservation

00:01:42.220 being out in the outdoors how did that get started like when did you start hunting have you always

00:01:47.240 been hunting since you were you know knee high to a grasshopper yeah i don't even remember beginning

00:01:52.840 you know starting to hunt because my dad was a big hunter he he was he was kind of unusual as a hunter

00:02:00.720 in that you know typically you'll see hunting kind of flow from father to son but my dad was raised

00:02:07.380 for the most part raised by his grandparents who were italian immigrants and he was raised in the

00:02:14.080 south side of chicago like they spoke italian in the home they didn't know hunting you know they had

00:02:19.600 no concept of hunting he went off and fought in world war ii he had muni was pretty old you know so my

00:02:27.080 dad's like a world war ii vet but he went off and fought world war ii when he got back from world war ii

00:02:31.040 he got very very into hunting as did a lot of guys in that era there were as many hunters then

00:02:37.380 in the years following world war ii as there are now and so i was just brought up in it you know

00:02:43.040 fishing hunting trapping all since a very early age i mean i know when i killed my first deer

00:02:48.840 you're right but other things like just getting started out hunting i have no i don't remember it

00:02:54.500 at all it happened before i can remember i mean so it sounds like this was like it's something that

00:02:58.360 brought your family together not only you and your dad but your brothers too very much so very much

00:03:03.980 so in fact without that without that shared bond without that shared connection i really don't know

00:03:12.080 what they're you know i don't mean i don't want to like this i'm not trying to like disparage my

00:03:18.680 family in some way but i guess i can't say maybe something would have filled it in i can say this

00:03:24.140 without that shared connection without that bond it's hard for me to picture what the bond

00:03:29.160 would have become you know it was just like a thing we did together to the extent where if like

00:03:35.480 when i was little if my dad and brothers were going to go out hunting or fishing or whatever and i didn't

00:03:42.620 go i would get a guilty conscience like i would feel like i was doing something bad by not going it was

00:03:49.840 that meaningful so i mean you've been yeah so you've been hunting since you were a kid and it

00:03:55.740 was just something you did for fun but you've turned into a career and your latest iteration is

00:04:00.880 you become sort of an advocate for hunting and connecting that with being an advocate for

00:04:05.260 conservation i mean how did you find yourself becoming an advocate for hunting and why did you

00:04:09.720 think hunting needed an advocate yeah i'll back up to like an earlier part of your question like you

00:04:16.840 say like did it for fun it's like it's fun but it was fun but man it's just more than that you know

00:04:24.900 it almost kind of like trivializes it because oftentimes it's not fun like you know i remember

00:04:28.760 being out all the time and crying because i was so cold it wasn't fun it was like a compulsion or like

00:04:35.300 a deep deep passion you know it's hard to but yeah we can go with it but it just didn't it often

00:04:43.140 didn't feel that way it felt like something different like something that needed to be done

00:04:47.420 you know and advocacy i don't know i i got interested in writing at an early age and wanted

00:04:54.400 to be an outdoor writer and and was trained to encourage to write what i knew about and so i

00:05:01.240 naturally began writing about what i knew most about which was the outdoors i guess the role of

00:05:07.960 advocacy i didn't view it like i didn't say like i want to advocate for this i just wanted to explain

00:05:13.700 it right and capture my relationship with it i think that it wound up being that my explanation

00:05:21.840 was perhaps compelling to people and it served the purpose of advocacy but it wasn't intended to be

00:05:28.540 advocacy like i never felt like i had a sort of cross to bear right by going out and advocating for

00:05:35.500 something it wasn't that it was just like explaining my world right and in explaining my world it

00:05:41.740 served the purpose of advocacy though that was not my intention so why do you feel you need to explain

00:05:46.920 it is it because you know hunting's less common today i mean there's 11 million hunters today

00:05:50.880 that's a lot seems like a lot but that's as many as we had in the 1950s but the population's bigger

00:05:56.100 today so hunting's less common i think that the percentage of population part winds up making it seem

00:06:03.280 scarce right but i got a friend pat uh he's a writer pat dirk and i've quoted him on this 100

00:06:09.680 times pat dirk and once said like of his area in wisconsin where he's from wisconsin he said you either

00:06:15.740 are a deer hunter or you sleep with one so i think that there are like communities you know

00:06:20.360 where it's just it's like there's communities where it's a real part of life every household

00:06:27.500 like when i was growing up not every virtually every household had 100 in my area so i never

00:06:33.120 had a percept there was no perception in my mind of scarcity you know it just you know because because

00:06:39.680 you don't grow up that way like if you grew up in a city you might think jesus there's no hunters

00:06:43.200 around right but for me that's not how it feels where i live now like i mean where i live now like

00:06:51.120 if i point around to the houses around me i'd be like that dude hunts that dude hunts that dude

00:06:55.480 hunts you know so it's it just depends on where you're at so i grew up like very immersed in that

00:07:02.080 and i've then since lived in places where it doesn't go on at all and absolutely man like living i spent

00:07:07.640 time i spent time living in new york i spent time living in seattle there you wind up where you feel

00:07:13.840 like a total oddball and i think that that feeling like an oddball probably changes how you talk about

00:07:19.940 what you do but early on when i was a kid growing up and even when i was in college and like everybody

00:07:26.200 i hung out with hunted i didn't feel there was anything that needed to be explained maybe because

00:07:31.580 everybody already knew it and then you open out to like the broader world you're like oh yeah man

00:07:36.920 there are places where it's just not but there are also you gotta understand like for most people

00:07:40.740 that grew up hunting you know like i said grew up hunting because their dad did which is pretty

00:07:44.340 typical that's just kind of how it flows people that grew up hunting because their dad did

00:07:47.480 they don't for the most part i don't think that they feel misunderstood because it's around them

00:07:55.360 yeah you know so when you like when you moved to like new york you did a stint in new york yeah and

00:08:00.960 you explain try to explain to people what you did you know you said you had to change the way you

00:08:05.800 explain what did you do like how did you explain or try to explain what you did because you got to

00:08:10.740 back all the way up to step one i would meet people in new york who were pleasantly surprised

00:08:17.380 to learn that there was a regulatory structure pleasantly surprised to learn that there's this

00:08:23.180 system by which you have state wildlife agencies that manage wildlife in the state and that they

00:08:29.980 have teams of biologists who do population work to find out how many animals are out there where they

00:08:36.520 live whether they're increasing or decreasing in number and they draw up harvest plans to find like

00:08:42.780 what a sustainable harvest would be and how to admit population objectives and that they have a

00:08:48.660 licensing system where people pay to buy a license and that money that they paid to buy a license goes

00:08:53.980 to fund the wildlife agency that manages the wildlife and that they have seasons meaning set dates at

00:09:01.820 which you can pursue these animals and bag limits people who are like oh no shit really you know 0.83

00:09:07.760 something that you would take to be that you you take to be like well why would i ever need to tell 0.95

00:09:12.900 you that like everybody knows this but everybody doesn't know that and so then it's just like

00:09:16.820 explanation and again remember i said earlier the advocacy kind of happens by accident you're just

00:09:21.360 answering a question like how does it work right and when you tell people how it works it puts their

00:09:25.900 mind at ease because they thought it was just some kind of like rapacious slaughter that had no rhyme or

00:09:31.020 reason to it they thought you just go in the woods and start shooting stuff you know and then when you

00:09:35.680 explain like no no here's how it works in this country like we have this thing we have this thing

00:09:39.720 that we like to call the north american model of wildlife conservation and here's what that is here's what

00:09:44.600 that looks like and then they you explain it like oh i feel a lot better about it now you know so winds up

00:09:51.920 being advocacy but but it's it's um it's just like explanation like there's not a lot that needs to be

00:09:57.820 hidden you know there's not a lot of like dirty secrets right it's just kind of how that stuff works

00:10:03.820 and so i i found myself needing to explain it more from the ground up explain it for an uneducated

00:10:13.140 audience the same way let's say you grew up in new york and you use the subway system okay and you'd

00:10:21.520 always use the subway system and you take you used to take the subway to elementary school right you

00:10:26.780 probably don't spend a lot of time like you just you just understand how it works and then someone like

00:10:30.300 me comes i'm like i man i can't like it's just baffling to me everything about like how to go

00:10:35.060 where to go what line goes where the mistakes not to make everyone knows you should never get on that

00:10:41.300 one at that time right and someone has to just explain it from the ground up something they take

00:10:47.240 for granted it's quite similar and their interest or knowledge about hunting maybe was as much as mine

00:10:53.460 about subways just wasn't something i gave any thought to and to them it's like a big part of life

00:10:57.700 and it's the thing that they follow and have interest in so that was the thing that happened

00:11:02.880 and that probably like really had an impactful change in how i talked about what i talked about

00:11:08.920 once i understood the knowledge gap yeah so showing people who aren't familiar with hunting i mean the

00:11:13.560 role i mean everyone wants to conserve wildlife that everyone that's something people i think in

00:11:17.840 america particularly with our we've been blessed with like these wonderful natural resources fantastic

00:11:22.560 environment people want to support that and when they see how hunting plays a role in that

00:11:27.100 conservation it puts them at ease with the with the lifestyle or the practice i i think that yeah

00:11:33.000 i i think there are parts of it you know and i would i don't think that everyone in this country wants

00:11:38.040 to preserve wildlife but i think you could say like generally it's true people i think everyone will pay

00:11:41.720 lip service to that sure as long as it's remains good for the economy but i think that's the thing we like

00:11:48.060 to think about ourselves but there's a lot of cases where when the rubber meets the road it's just not the

00:11:52.680 reality but yeah i think we like to think that and i i think that you know i got a friend that did some

00:11:58.860 work one time he's a social scientist and he did some work on taking people who were adversarial to

00:12:05.800 hunting and giving them pieces of information and then sort of like measuring what impact the

00:12:13.660 information had on their viewpoints and the regulatory structure and the funding structure

00:12:21.040 were things that changed their viewpoint one thing that hunters love to talk about

00:12:27.280 and it's it's just kind of silly that we still do it is hunters love to like they love to justify

00:12:34.000 their actions based on this idea that if it wasn't for hunters like uh we'd be overrun with

00:12:40.420 deer you know or we need to keep the populations in check you know it's just like a knee-jerk thing

00:12:48.740 that people go to um and it's funny because once you start looking into that it's just like

00:12:54.940 very complicated not really that accurate and when you try that out when you try that logic out

00:13:01.800 on people who are adversarial to hunting it doesn't move the needle like they don't buy it right

00:13:06.060 that they they don't see that the good thing that hunters do is remove animals in order to

00:13:14.480 balance ecosystems like they just don't see it that way and and when you explain that to them

00:13:20.740 they don't buy it but do they buy like say well if you explain to them the way that wildlife

00:13:25.420 departments are funded in all states it's it's through hunting license that that winds up being

00:13:29.980 impactful they're like oh okay cool dig it and the same way with like rules like regulatory structures

00:13:35.540 like here's how we run the whole program it's like oh i got it i can see that you know but you

00:13:40.960 go like if we didn't kill all these deer you wouldn't be able to leave your house we'd be so

00:13:45.140 overrun with deer it'd be a you know that doesn't mayhem right that doesn't land i don't know about

00:13:50.420 that that doesn't land well so besides the role hunting can play in conservation and wildlife

00:13:55.720 management game management i mean you also talk a lot about the benefits that hunting can bring people

00:14:01.220 personally and you talk about this in your work too like what hunting has done for you i mean

00:14:05.400 you mentioned it earlier it was something that connected you and your family but beyond that

00:14:09.320 like what else do you think hunting can do for people like why do people go and hunt like what

00:14:13.780 is it i don't know individual level what draws yeah i never i never ever prescribe hunting like

00:14:21.440 i never say that i would never say to somebody i'd never say like hey man you know i know you don't

00:14:28.080 think you need to go and i know you think that you don't want to go but what you need to do is go

00:14:32.580 hunting like i never say that to anybody i think it's like if if you're compelled to do it right

00:14:39.820 and it's the thing you want to go do and want to go try knock yourself out but i would never go to

00:14:45.040 someone and say like you might not realize like the same way you know you could have some guy like 0.98

00:14:48.920 you know total lazy ass out of shape eats junk food all day long right and you'd say man you know 0.98

00:14:56.020 what you need to do dude you need to start exercising and you need to clean your diet up 0.99

00:15:03.300 right i would go and like offer that to somebody if i felt that they needed it i never go to people

00:15:08.840 and be like what you need to do is go kill a deer what i do do is i like you know explain what it's

00:15:15.480 brought to me and like what my experience has been and what the experience of others has been but i

00:15:20.620 i don't think it's the kind of thing where you would come and tell someone that they ought to go

00:15:24.820 do it what it's brought to me is like i just for me personally i like to have a very intimate

00:15:32.240 hands-on relationship with nature and my like a through line in my life has been that

00:15:42.020 interaction with nature it's like it's how i like to eat it's how i like to spend my time

00:15:47.520 it's how i like to raise my kids like i see a tremendous amount of value in it there's a

00:15:52.320 reality to it right there's a pragmatism to it i like being self-sufficient you know there's very

00:15:59.600 little in life that we kind of like take charge of anymore you know there's a thing i've brought up

00:16:08.240 a handful of times of people be we're we live in a very specialized society now right like you don't

00:16:14.940 process your own raw sewage most people don't fix their own car fewer and fewer people change their

00:16:21.200 oil you probably didn't build your house i know there's many many exceptions but generally you

00:16:26.480 didn't build your own house like we farm out you know we like hand out all of our obligations to 0.87

00:16:32.360 other people and then we focus on some little subset of subset of activities and it makes this whole like

00:16:38.520 society and civilization work the thing about hunting is it gives you a really intimate control over

00:16:44.600 something which is food where you actually can have the experience of like running a to z on a

00:16:51.460 process and i think that there's a lot of value in that like in seeing something through from start to

00:16:57.180 finish and that's the thing i like about it you know and there's nothing more sort of elemental than

00:17:03.220 food right that's why i like to grow food in the garden and i like to hunt for food and fish for food

00:17:07.940 it's just one of those areas where i'm like you know what like i'll take this one over

00:17:11.940 like i'll handle this one from the ground up and that brings a real sense of purpose

00:17:18.660 and every time i sit down i'm to to eat with my family and even my kids and we're eating game

00:17:24.660 there's there's like a real sense of value there there's a relationship with what's on the plate

00:17:29.940 that i simply don't feel when i go to a restaurant or when i eat grocery store meat

00:17:35.000 that's where the value is for me and when you talk to other hunters is that

00:17:39.200 kind of the same thing you found across the board or people hunt for different reasons

00:17:43.880 camaraderie is huge a lot of people they don't admit it but bragging rights is big

00:17:49.640 like they find a world in which they can find approval you know i know a lot of guys that like

00:17:56.820 they're they're very wasteful of game and they'd be more wasteful if they could get away with it

00:18:02.920 right but more and more it's becoming like socially it's becoming untenable to be a game waster

00:18:08.460 but there are a lot of game wasters out there there's a lot of people that hunt man

00:18:12.700 that they'll tell you oh yeah i hunt for the meat but they don't you know they just really don't it's

00:18:18.160 kind of a it's like a thing they they give it lip service they lie about it and then there's people

00:18:24.480 that i'm familiar with that they hunt for social approval you know like they value the opinions of

00:18:30.880 other hunters and they they enjoy hunting they think it's fun but kind of like a motivating factor

00:18:36.380 is whatever dry you know whatever pushes a person to get a convertible corvette and have people see

00:18:44.120 them in it you know like they they they want to be perceived a way and that's a thing too but that's

00:18:50.600 that's true of every pursuit every discipline you have that but the people that i you know choose to

00:18:57.500 spend my time with all have a deep deep reverence for the food and a reverence for the skill set

00:19:06.220 you know it's good it feels good to be good at something especially when something that you can

00:19:10.280 never you can you can never master it i don't care how long you do it you just wind up learning things

00:19:14.800 that you don't you just learn where your gaps are the more you do it there's there's no end there's no

00:19:20.660 there's no perfection you can't even approach it you know there's just too much knowledge out there

00:19:25.600 to try to gain and chasing that knowledge is is good because you can't beat it i mean you know

00:19:31.520 one day i was watching uh dudes bowling on tv like a bowling whatever you call tournaments and bowling

00:19:38.380 i remember thinking man it's like it kind of shocked me that that you wouldn't eventually get because

00:19:45.080 it's a controlled environment there's no weather you know and the lane doesn't change same width same

00:19:51.280 length i remember being like how could it not be that you'd eventually get where you could just get

00:19:55.320 a strike every time like it seemed like a shallow pursuit you know like a shallow pursuit there's this

00:20:03.040 is like not a ton to it and hunting and fishing and stuff man they're just like infinitely deep

00:20:10.000 yeah it's a you talk you call it a practice for guys who are listening to this and they said well i've

00:20:15.460 always they they had that that compulsion they want to go hunt right something that draws them to the

00:20:19.480 sport or to the practice but i mean hunting can have it's a high barrier of entry because you gotta

00:20:25.260 know where it lands at there's like a whole bunch of information you gotta know there's money like

00:20:30.020 license tags equipment so guys listening they want they think they'd have an interest in it like what's

00:20:36.180 the best way to get started and kind of overcome that high barrier of entry that hunting often has

00:20:40.520 yeah you know i you know i've even said the same thing in the past i've i've sort of like put that

00:20:46.360 i've i've articulated that high barrier of entry but man i don't know if i more and more i don't

00:20:51.480 know how much i believe it because i just kind of look at when we were like when we were kids

00:20:56.000 i don't know that we had a barrier to entry we had like pellet guns you know someone gave us a

00:21:02.220 pellet gun for christmas and those little plastic boxes of crossman pellets and we went out and hunted

00:21:08.340 squirrels hardcore and we didn't have like clothes for it you know we didn't have like special clothes

00:21:15.280 so i hear that and i think for some people it is a barrier of entry what i think is we created a

00:21:20.700 barrier of entry is we create a barrier of entry around how we've how the community has defined

00:21:26.520 success so you know the most hunted for thing is not the most hunted for you in terms of man hours

00:21:34.140 spent the most hunted for critters white-tailed deer you know and we've kind of built this idea

00:21:40.340 that like oh you know that you want to get a big buck right like a big white-tailed buck that's 0.57

00:21:45.560 something people want is that hard to get that's hard to get that can be expensive to get if that's

00:21:51.200 where we're defining like what success is i can see how you'd wind up with it being a high barrier

00:21:56.340 of entry but you if you kind of divorce yourself from what success based on magazines and tv shows

00:22:04.720 and stuff looks like and just measured it as success as being like you went out and procured a meal

00:22:11.020 okay you went and and procured a dinner i don't think there's a high barrier of entry to go do that

00:22:17.920 meaning to go hunt small game okay to get a rabbit to get a squirrel whatever like it's it feels to me

00:22:24.360 not high so i think it's a high barrier of entry to participate at the level that people see

00:22:31.320 through shows such as my own but in general i don't see it but if i was going to give someone

00:22:38.660 advice about it the advice i give would actually contradict how we went about it ourselves like

00:22:43.980 we moved out west and started hunting in the west we just figured it out man we didn't find anybody

00:22:47.780 local no one showed us anything i mean i'm telling you man no one taught us anything when me and my

00:22:53.740 brother started hunting in the mountains right and no one and our dad taught us some things about

00:22:59.580 hunting where we weren't but we just figured a lot of stuff out i think you need to be really

00:23:03.660 comfortable with trial and error and you need to be comfortable with the idea of failure we would

00:23:08.220 have times in the winter we'd go out and hunt squirrels and rabbits in december and january if we

00:23:12.880 got one or two if three of us got one or two it was a good day we didn't care about we weren't afraid

00:23:18.920 of failing i i think getting comfortable with the fact that you're entering a thing that is going

00:23:24.400 to take a long time and that's the point if you're comfortable with that i think you're ready to go

00:23:29.120 if you want to be that you're going to walk out the door on a friday and kill something on a saturday

00:23:33.660 and it's going to be big enough to like you know blow up your social media feed yeah man that's that's

00:23:40.040 that's hard work you know that takes a lot so yeah i mean maybe maybe not lower expect yeah maybe

00:23:46.200 it's kind of lower expectations right it's like it's okay to start off small it's still hunting you

00:23:50.200 can still you can still eat a squirrel you can still eat rabbit and you're still practicing those

00:23:54.480 skills that maybe eventually will lead you to go hunt a whitetail or yeah it depends what your

00:23:58.860 ultimate goals are you know if your goal is this really like personal right i would ignore if your

00:24:05.100 goal is personal just to get started and figure something out i would ignore the way in which

00:24:09.660 the hunting community measures success you know and i would just like set your own parameters man

00:24:19.100 and i would find people that share it's a hell of a lot more fun to go into this with someone

00:24:25.300 and find like-minded people and set your own rules for what you want to accomplish

00:24:33.600 and just keep it enjoyable we're gonna take a quick break for your word from our sponsors

00:24:39.660 and now back to the show so let's talk about this i think a transition to your latest book because

00:24:46.840 like not only do you explain hunting which in turn you know indirectly turns into advocacy but you're

00:24:51.220 big you want people to get outdoors and enjoy the outdoors and this latest book is all about how to

00:24:56.920 survive in the outdoors but it's it's what i like about it is your approach to it was wasn't it's very

00:25:03.940 realistic you try to avoid the romanticism that people sometimes associate with wilderness survival

00:25:08.780 yeah and make it really approachable and applicable so when you when you first started conceiving this

00:25:15.320 book like what what kind of what sort of myths of wilderness survival were you hoping to debunk or

00:25:20.060 avoid with your guide to being in the outdoors oh yeah it's got a little bit you know to be honest

00:25:27.120 i mean i got like a little played out with sort of the fantasy aspect of survival you know with like

00:25:33.260 reality shows and this kind of idea that you're going to be you know stranded on a deserted island

00:25:38.700 with nothing but a giant bowie knife and i just wasn't really interested in that but i was very

00:25:42.880 interested in wilderness skills you know the book's called the meteor guide to wilderness skills and

00:25:46.280 survival and wilderness skills is first for a reason in doing the book it's like me and you know the

00:25:53.920 folks that work with we have many many many decades worth of experience of like being productive

00:25:59.360 outdoors okay so in doing the book i wanted to make like a very good manual a big information dump

00:26:08.160 for people who don't try to run away from the woods you know it's not like oh you're stuck in this

00:26:13.580 dangerous place and you need to get out of here in a hurry but rather people that run toward the woods

00:26:18.080 that run toward wilderness a manual and guidebook for them to like be effective

00:26:23.400 and be safe and develop a good sort of cockiness when they're outdoors we go like you know doing

00:26:32.660 a tv show as a reporter and writer like i spend a lot of time going into the wilderness going into

00:26:38.520 the mountains going into the woods the swamps whatever with an objective in mind like there's

00:26:42.680 a thing i'm trying to do whether i'm going there because i'm trying to like take my kids out hunting

00:26:47.240 whether we're going there because we're making a show like we're going out to do something

00:26:51.160 to experience something or see something how do you do that effectively and avoid trouble

00:26:56.620 so in in survival i mean not like it's not just like what do you do when the chips are down everything's

00:27:02.100 gone bad but how do you just like conduct yourself meaning what is the mindset that expert outdoorsmen

00:27:08.560 have what is the skill set they have and what's the toolkit they carry and all the chapters you can

00:27:15.760 kind of get a sense for the book if you if you pay attention to how the chapters in the book flow

00:27:20.500 where if you take the water chapter for instance all the chapters flow like best case scenario to

00:27:25.960 worst case scenario right so the water chatter begins like car camp and how much water do you bring

00:27:29.960 how do you transport it how do you bring it how do you uh treat it for long-term storage

00:27:35.840 what do you intake every day what do you need for cooking what do you need for cleaning

00:27:40.840 right just how much water and how to move it and then it goes through it kind of flows through this

00:27:46.040 idea of okay you're using sourced locally sourced water and you have surface water available to you

00:27:52.020 what are the tools and methods you use to make that water safe the worst case being all the way down to

00:27:59.380 there's no surface water you have no way to treat water you don't have any way to transport water

00:28:04.800 now what right the food chapter begins with like how much food to pack calorie wise like what are

00:28:10.260 good packing lists for an overnight trip week-long trip here's a packing list of food and it ends

00:28:15.020 with cannibalism kind of a tongue-in-cheek like somewhat of a joke but it ends in cannibalism so

00:28:20.360 we've gone from best case to worst case and it flows like that and i think it flows like that because

00:28:27.620 we norm you know people that are outdoor practitioners usually are coming in under best case scenarios

00:28:32.980 we stop by rei and pick some stuff up we go to sportsman's warehouse and pick some stuff up

00:28:38.460 trouble comes later you know it doesn't necessarily spring out of nowhere it's usually because we've

00:28:47.080 made some bad decisions along the way well so yeah let's talk about like sort of general like stuff

00:28:51.880 you can bring that first chapter you dedicate to like kits that you should bring a gear and clothing

00:28:57.620 you should bring in the outdoors like what's your approach to just a basic kit that any person who's

00:29:02.240 going to be out in the outdoors whether they're hunting or doing a day hike like what's some good

00:29:06.040 stuff to have with you to make your expedition not comfortable i mean it's gotta be i mean but

00:29:11.720 but like so you're not like having to resort to cannibalism eventually yeah well yeah so me and the

00:29:16.840 guys i work with we all carry like a kit right and just kind of a term we use people are familiar

00:29:22.700 with something like called a survival kit they're familiar with the first aid kit but this is like we

00:29:28.820 don't precede it with either of those words this is like a kit meaning it's everything i have a little

00:29:33.700 bag it's like about the size of a coffee mug maybe a little bit bigger than a coffee mug

00:29:38.280 and i and and that thing comes to me everywhere man like if we go on vacation we go to baja every

00:29:43.600 year and spearfish with our kids right and i throw that thing in there if i'm going on a day hike i

00:29:49.840 throw it in my bag and it's kind of like my like thing i always carry with me and it has stuff from

00:29:55.420 like fire starting kit water purification system lots of little single serving meds insect repellent

00:30:03.340 sunscreen a light like i have a light that's the size of a couple quarters stacked together

00:30:08.700 utility cord zip ties compass whistle signal mirror wax dental floss dispenser with a heavy duty needle

00:30:16.800 a circle patch kit all kinds of stuff i keep in there and then depending on where i'm going

00:30:22.480 i have other envelopes i add to it so in my gear like i have this drawer right i keep my kit in

00:30:28.380 there and i also keep all these sort of like auxiliary envelopes and if i'm going to protect

00:30:32.680 like let's say it's southeast alaska which is like everything's soaking wet it's impossible to start a

00:30:36.260 fire i have like a like a extra fire thing i have an extra med thing anything with firearms and stuff

00:30:42.100 you know a tourniquet right so it's just this thing that i know it like saves a lot of packing chores

00:30:47.060 when i come home it's all my essentials and when i come home i put that thing away so it's ready to go

00:30:53.640 and it really reduces my packing list because my packing list is grab that bag and i know what's in

00:30:59.600 that bag and i don't let that bag get depleted and it makes it be that it eliminates a lot of that oh

00:31:06.020 no i forgot my light like it's not it lives in there so we explain that approach and then other other

00:31:13.380 similar kits depending on like what types of expeditions you're on other more advanced or

00:31:19.380 specialized kits we get into but like i said i you know i don't know any serious

00:31:24.420 outdoorsmen outdoors women that don't have like that being a part of their thing so that's where 1.00

00:31:30.680 we start the book like that's where it all begins man so have that kid and that just makes it makes

00:31:35.100 going out the outdoors a lot easier because you have it ready and you're like i'm just gonna do a

00:31:39.360 hike today you just peck that up you don't have to worry like do i have this do i have that you know

00:31:42.880 you have it you're out yeah you don't be like man i should grab a flashlight just in case something

00:31:46.480 happens i should grab a little space blanket you know oh yeah let me go grab a granola bar

00:31:51.320 i was like my bag is ready my buddy could be like hurry up quick something happened i'd be like great

00:31:57.120 and i'd grab my bag and out the door go back and i got my stuff and then you know we get into you

00:32:01.040 know and everything else you'd expect right like tent selection gear how to build like a pretty

00:32:06.360 how to build a very simple bulletproof gear kit not like a little kit but like a set of gear

00:32:15.320 that'll get you through 90 of the scenarios you might encounter in north america and that takes

00:32:21.560 some special understanding but but like how to put together an assemblage of clothing footwear

00:32:27.700 gear sleeping gear cooking gear that you're ready for 90 some percent of environments locations that

00:32:38.300 you could find yourself in well speaking of clothing like what's uh i mean it's course is going to vary

00:32:43.300 based on what you're doing or what what the climate is like but like what does an adaptable clothing

00:32:48.200 kit look like i mean what do you recommend for an all-around outdoor clothing kit yeah like i said if

00:32:54.640 you're trying to meet that 90 thing you know start with like merino merino wool base layers i like

00:33:00.980 merino locks it doesn't smell you know if you remember um capilline right just just reeks so bad it

00:33:08.860 reeks so bad you came you can't get the bo out of it when you wash it so like the way merino just stays

00:33:14.060 so comfortable still keeps some insulating qualities when it's wet doesn't start to smell so starting with

00:33:20.760 merino then like a good wool or since that static field pant then some kind of bulletproof shell

00:33:28.100 pant like a rain pant and if you add a very thin lightweight down pant that you can wear between

00:33:34.520 that you can wear under that shell which converts it into a snow pant there you've got granted it's

00:33:39.580 four layers but like on your legs you got a merino base layer a pair of field pants a pair of puffy

00:33:46.740 pants synthetic preferably in a shell there you are like i like again 90 some percent of the

00:33:55.080 scenarios you could possibly find you 95 of the scenarios you'd ever find yourself in in this

00:33:59.840 continent you're comfortable it's just a great system and then likewise a similar you know similar

00:34:05.900 thinking on tops then you get into other camp gear like a tent selection sleeping pad selection sleeping

00:34:11.840 bag selection where you're just ready to go man i have kind of my main thing and i keep there's a

00:34:17.040 tote in my garage i keep everything really organized my sort of like main stuff like this just lives there

00:34:22.640 because i know when i pack i start with that box i might need to grab a couple other things to

00:34:27.480 specialize and we cover like you know desert conditions deep winter snow conditions like things

00:34:33.380 you'd add on but starts out with this like basic system which is pretty easy to accumulate and it just

00:34:40.440 makes it that you're ready to roll you're always going to be your eyes and be comfortable you're

00:34:43.740 always going to go in feeling ready to go feeling prepared what's your recommendation on sleeping pads

00:34:49.540 because i've had i've been like experimenting with this i've tried the foam pads i tried the the air

00:34:54.700 mattress like for backpacking and last time i used the air mattress like it like sprung a leak at like

00:35:00.120 one o'clock in the morning and i found myself just cold and on the ground and then so i tried a

00:35:05.460 backpacking cot which was okay but it was kind of heavy like what's your go-to man i uh i like

00:35:14.100 insulated inflatables there's some now like i'm a big fan of ones made by nemo and i carry patches

00:35:20.640 for it i used to always carry like the closed cell foam z rest ridge rest type things right they're

00:35:27.260 pretty bulky they're good they're pretty bulky when you're on frozen ground they're not

00:35:33.240 anywhere near ideal and yeah i do like the inflatable but you have to rethink how you manage

00:35:41.340 it you know you don't sit out by the fire on it what i usually carry when it's cold like i carry an

00:35:46.580 insulated inflatable and you need to treat it like you need to be gentle with it man you don't crawl

00:35:50.560 around on it you don't go on it with your boots like at bedtime when you're getting ready to

00:35:55.460 you know go down for sleep you inflate that thing and get it on your sleeping bag and in the morning

00:36:00.780 you put it away and then you'll get man season after season after season out of it as soon as you 0.97

00:36:05.920 start doing stupid stuff with it sitting on it out by the fire where some hot ember is going to pop 0.98

00:36:10.900 and blow a hole in it you're just going to ruin it what i carry instead is i take a chunk of a z 0.99

00:36:16.860 rest or ridge rest and cut off just about 18 inches of it and that's like a butt pad or a kneeling pad

00:36:24.260 and especially if the ground's frozen or snow i carry that i use that for sitting out by the fire

00:36:29.160 i use that for kneeling on in the snow around frozen ground it's just a small little thing

00:36:34.640 you can just tuck it right like kind of like tuck it inside your pack and i use that for all that

00:36:40.200 stuff that is all that stuff that blows up your sleeping pad i use that thing instead and i keep

00:36:45.480 my sleeping pad for what it is because it's when the ground's frozen it gets down you know zero degrees

00:36:50.800 below zero in the winter staying warm is hard to do with a one of those thin closed cell foam pads

00:36:58.980 so as much as they're indestructible they leave a little bit to be desired in my view

00:37:03.500 so in your chapter in water you have you know how to how to purify it and filter when you're out in

00:37:09.180 the outdoors but one of the interesting things i i took away from that was the debate between camelback

00:37:13.080 and algeen bottles for like i've been the camelback guy but then you raise like these like objections

00:37:19.820 or the cons of the camel that i've experienced like i'm like i'm like these things suck like they're 0.71

00:37:23.940 leaking all the time it's hard to fill up and i think after reading this book i think i'm gonna

00:37:28.700 try analogy next time i go backpacking like is that what you go to like is your go-to the analogy

00:37:34.120 bottle you gotta remember i've lived most my life in the northern tier states like the big like

00:37:39.400 camelback dudes are all down in like utah arizona right we're just like a little bit warmer 1.00

00:37:43.860 and and at times very hot and dry and so hydration is hard you know as you know so like a lot of guys i

00:37:52.180 know that spend time in the in the desert uh where they got to be very mindful about water intake and

00:37:58.480 that's kind of like top of mind all the time they use them and they're like yeah man they're problematic

00:38:03.180 but i drink three times as much water you know i don't need to stop and get out my water bottle i'm

00:38:08.300 just sucking water all the time and so that's what i do you know i'm from the north like the you know

00:38:13.500 it's just different but it seems like every time i'm with someone on a backpacking trip that's using

00:38:20.160 the camelback there's always a part of the trip where you go like hey is there supposed to be water dripping

00:38:24.160 out of the bottom of your backpack um and you know when sleeping bags get wet and down gets wet

00:38:30.480 it's just hard i i just don't like them i just don't it doesn't seem bulletproof to me

00:38:34.540 the hoses freeze up there's always an issue i like to use like my water system my general water system

00:38:42.560 is i use a steripen so uv light to purify water i use an algeen bottle and i use a msr dromedary

00:38:53.740 like a two-quart collapsible heavy heavy duty fabric bag and that's my and i have a plastic cup

00:39:01.560 so that at a little seep or something hard to get into where you can't dip an algeen in there i can

00:39:06.140 scoop it up with a little cup and fill it and purify that way i'm not filtering

00:39:10.300 so if there's like debris and stuff i'm not getting the debris out besides letting it settle

00:39:14.880 but i'm purifying the water that system would change depending but that's generally what i go

00:39:21.760 with for water any advice on gear or apps to help people navigate in the wilds a little bit easier

00:39:28.520 yeah there's two things i live by now i for a long time i was a gps guy and i would use chips

00:39:34.620 right i would use a garmin gps i always like the montana 600 and still do and i own one of them

00:39:40.300 and you get state-by-state chips that you can load in there now i've just gotten away from it now i

00:39:46.760 use my phone i use an iphone 10 with on x on it on x hunt and on on x hunt i can download very detailed

00:39:56.080 maps onto my phone where i'm going and you can download maps five miles wide with like very good

00:40:02.680 detail down to maps that are 100 miles wide or 50 miles wide with lower detail but it's aerial imagery

00:40:10.680 or you can toggle back and forth between aerial and imagery and classic topo or aerial with topo lines

00:40:17.640 overlaid on it it works without a cell signal okay because your phone has a gps functionality built into

00:40:23.000 it right so you can go out you can take a full charge on your phone put it on airplane mode

00:40:26.940 run on x maps with the maps you downloaded of where you're going your phone's gps works and

00:40:34.520 you'll get days worth of battery i then carry a little external battery which i can get two more

00:40:41.140 charges off of and i could have that thing on for days and days running it just like a gps it's so

00:40:48.080 much easier to use that's a good i'm gonna download i i'm gonna download as soon as we get off

00:40:53.000 this conversation it sounds awesome yeah uh you pay for it but it's not expensive the other thing

00:40:59.760 i use now that i like a lot is i carry a garmin inreach and what it is is you can text you can

00:41:07.980 text through satellite so no matter where you are on the planet right you can text and this also has

00:41:14.140 an sos button you hold that sos button down for i don't know what it is 20 seconds or something i don't

00:41:18.880 what it is you hold the sos button down that message is getting out and it's sending your

00:41:23.380 coordinates to someone you can send pre-planned messages so you can just type a bunch of messages

00:41:29.000 ahead of time and every day you say whatever you can say to your husband or wife or whatever like hey

00:41:35.380 i'm gonna text you at five o'clock man if i don't text you at five o'clock something's wrong

00:41:39.720 it just sends a pre-planned message or you can download an app on your phone it's called earthmate

00:41:45.900 and then you can text using your phone through the inreach because if you're using the inreach you

00:41:54.460 got to do that old style thing where you go like a b c click right and multiple clicks to hit every

00:42:00.240 letter but then you can just type text messages on your phone and it sends it via satellite through

00:42:07.540 the inreach device and that's been just a guy have kids you know i'm married i have young kids

00:42:13.540 it's hard being gone that has been a real that that's been a wonderful tool to have and and like

00:42:23.340 i said i'm like a tech friendly person i don't like tech to come in and ruin my experience or like

00:42:29.460 create barriers between me and the natural world but areas where it just comes down to safety and

00:42:36.560 common sense and communication with my family i'll take it and one of the things that makes this book

00:42:41.600 different just kind of plug the book is you know there's no survival book out there that does any

00:42:45.940 kind of a job dealing with like modern tech and its applications for these purposes and this book

00:42:53.680 is exhaustive in it another thing you got to be worried about if you spend a lot of time outdoors

00:42:57.940 is eventually you're going to have maybe have some sort of injury whether that's springing an ankle

00:43:02.780 because you're you felt you know you tripped over a rock or even more severe ones what sort of

00:43:08.060 first aid training do you recommend people take before they go out into the wilds it's you know

00:43:14.460 i've done a lot of it right i've done wilderness first responder classes i've done infant cpr i've done

00:43:22.280 cpr it's just hard to remember the stuff man whatever you get i just think you need to continuously brush

00:43:29.020 up on it and then best practices change in kind of a frustrating way you know maybe you learned cpr a

00:43:35.680 while ago and they found a better way to do it but you got to revisit it all the time like i if you

00:43:42.120 tested me right now tested me on on the timing and procedures and best practices for everything in the

00:43:48.800 book i might even fail the test and we did the book right it's just something you got to stay up on

00:43:55.000 and study and memorize i i learned through this process that i need to do a better job of myself

00:44:00.960 even like the importance of carrying a tourniquet like where to apply the things you just got to

00:44:05.640 skim through and refresh your memory it's hard to memorize all that maybe some you know some

00:44:09.500 listener yours has a photographic memory and they don't need to do it but i've just found that like

00:44:13.560 in reviewing it i'm like i mean i forgot like i forgot the sequence for cpr you know so i think it's

00:44:21.680 just something that takes training you know i mentioned in there we kind of talked about like a

00:44:25.040 practice or a discipline right it's just like learning how to live it's learning how to to

00:44:31.800 live in a way that you're reinforcing these information sets all the time no yeah these

00:44:36.380 skills degrade i mean i've noticed like with me like i'm not i try to get out like go camping

00:44:41.440 backpacking twice a year and those are the two times a year where i start a fire with just nothing

00:44:47.780 you know just a lighter and whatever i can find out and every time i feel like i'm relearning how to do

00:44:53.460 this but i remember when i was a boy scout and i was camping like once a month you know for multiple

00:44:57.840 nights like starting a fire rain shot it didn't i could do it it was just super easy now i'm like

00:45:02.980 almost 40 years old and like every time i feel like i'm relearning how to make the wheel when i'm

00:45:07.140 making a fire outdoors yeah you know i got i know i met a guy i'm gonna start doing this with my kids i

00:45:11.500 met a guy that he's got teenagers now and then when it's raining he makes them go out in the yard and

00:45:16.200 start a fire right because like there's a thing i bring up like you know there's this old thing in

00:45:21.220 survival books right they always have like the snares and deadfall section right and they always

00:45:24.720 have a section about how to start a fire with a bow drill i like to point out you know who knows how

00:45:28.900 to start a fire with a bow drill people that start fires the bow drills that's who yeah like you are

00:45:37.500 not going to i'm just telling you right now flat out if you've never done that and i took you and

00:45:44.040 dumped you out in the woods and i told you hey man make me a fire with a bow drill you ain't gonna do it

00:45:47.940 you are not going to do it unless it's a thing you've decided to incorporate into your skill sets

00:45:53.020 right and i think we try to in this book really like point out like which things like dude this is

00:45:58.920 the kind of thing you just got to learn how to do and in in a moment of despair is not the time to

00:46:06.480 learn right so yeah this is something you continually practice yeah you live it like like like with wild

00:46:11.300 with wild edibles man oh yeah i'm in wild edibles just for the sake of wild edibles right i like to go out

00:46:16.180 and pick berries so i'm always if i see a mushroom i want to identify the mushroom if i see a berry i

00:46:20.620 want to identify the berry all the time all the time we're just into it we go do it for fun i'll id

00:46:26.580 mushrooms because i enjoy iding mushrooms that kind of stuff pays off but you wouldn't want to id

00:46:32.200 mushrooms like the first time when in a survival situation because you might eat something that

00:46:36.780 kills you oh yeah i mean it's just it's almost kind of like laughable to think that you've never

00:46:44.400 picked a wild mushroom you have no idea about wild mushrooms now you're like in a situation where

00:46:48.560 you're going hungry in the woods and now you're going to pick it up it's just like it doesn't

00:46:52.560 work that way so you're a dad how any special considerations that you've thought of or you've

00:46:58.940 you've learned or picked up along the way as introducing your kids to the outdoors you know

00:47:04.640 i'm always really careful about parenting advice i always kind of want to say like i won't know for 20

00:47:10.160 years how i did i just had to see how they turn out right but i am comfortable yanking them away

00:47:20.260 from what they're doing and making them engage with nature and making them come out with me even when

00:47:25.400 they don't want to go and i'm comfortable keeping them out even when tears start to flow about cold

00:47:32.640 toes and cold fingers but with that said i try very hard to not burn them out so it's like there's

00:47:40.800 a push and pull there you know that and i learned some looking at my the way i was brought up i kind

00:47:47.240 of can't believe that we didn't get burned out but me and my two brothers that i grew up with i mean

00:47:53.080 we're very very dedicated you know and we've got put through a lot right so i know you can put

00:47:58.640 someone through a lot and not turn them off to the outdoors but that's one of the things i wonder

00:48:04.020 about what is too much but i like i said man i'll tell them like they'll be like i don't want to go

00:48:10.040 on i'm like you're going you know and i think that that's probably a good idea yeah you're trying to

00:48:14.940 set a pattern for them for the rest of their life yeah yeah and i don't always ask them what they think

00:48:19.560 no right well steve this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about your work

00:48:24.960 man i i would go to well if you have netflix you can check out meat eater on netflix but um i would

00:48:32.260 really like if people went to our website themeater.com where we have like you know a whole

00:48:37.520 podcast network endless stream of articles and videos and how-to information that's the best place

00:48:44.700 to go engage with meat eater fantastic well steven ranilla thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:48:48.520 hey man thank you my guest today was steven ranilla his new book is the meat eater guide to

00:48:53.800 wilderness skills and survival it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find

00:48:57.520 out more information about his work at his website themeater.com also check out our show notes at

00:49:01.840 aom.is slash outdoors where you can find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:49:06.200 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website at artofmanliness.com

00:49:17.820 where you can find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles written over the years and

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The Art of Manliness - December 14, 2020

Outdoor Competence With an Expert Backcountry Hunter

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