Overcome the Decision Traps Around Diet and Exercise
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Michelle Seeger explains why exercise and eating aren t conducive to becoming habits, at least of the automatic variety, and why it s more helpful to think of these behaviors in terms of life space and choice points. She makes the case for why we shouldn t just focus on what drives behaviors, but also on what disrupts them.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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When it comes to making behavior change around diet and exercise, it's no secret that many
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people fail in their efforts. My guest would say that's because too often we only concentrate
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on the things that drive us towards that change, whether willpower or motivation or the rewards
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that turn behaviors into habits, and that we need to think more about the obstacles keeping
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us from making the decisions we desire. Her name is Michelle Seeger, and she's a behavioral
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science researcher and health coach, as well as the author of The Joy Choice, How to Finally
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Achieve Lasting Changes in Eating and Exercise. Today on the show, Michelle explains why exercise
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and eating aren't conducive to becoming habits, at least of the automatic variety, and why
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it's more helpful to think of these behaviors in terms of life space and choice points.
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She makes the case for why we shouldn't just focus on what drives behaviors, but also understand
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what disrupts them, and unpacks four of these disruptors, temptation, rebellion, accommodation,
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and perfection. Michelle then offers a three-step decision tool for dealing with these disruptors
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and explains how to develop the flexibility to choose the perfect and perfect option that
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keeps you consistent and even celebrate and enjoy the decision to do something instead of
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nothing. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is.seeger. Michelle joins
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you now via clearcast.io. All right, Michelle Seeger, welcome back to the show.
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So we had you on a couple of years ago to talk about your book, No Sweat, which is all about
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how to become more consistent with your exercise without gritting it out with just willpower.
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And I was telling you before we got on, I have referenced that episode so many times on the
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podcast whenever I have like a fitness person on. It's just some really great insights. You got a
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new book out called The Joy Choice, How to Finally Achieve Lasting Changes in Eating and Exercise.
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How is this new book a continuation of your thinking from No Sweat?
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Great. You know, that's the question. And, you know, when I wrote No Sweat, I didn't think I had any
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more ideas. So it was kind of a surprise to me when new thinking popped into my head. And here's
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the relationship. No Sweat was about setting people up for converting exercise from a chore
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into a gift. And of course, as you know, from what you just said, that has to do with picking
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activities that you enjoy, that feel pleasurable or satisfying in some way, and definitely not
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punishing. But no matter how much we set ourselves up for success in exercise and healthy eating or
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really in any life area, the reality is, is that we are going to confront challenges to our plans and
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our goals. And so the joy choice speaks to that. It explains to people what really gets in our way
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when we bump up against an unexpected conflict to either our eating plan that we were doing so
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great on or the exercise or physical activity regimen that we'd been doing. Oftentimes, and so I'll just
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finish my answer there, that this book is all about how can we joyfully, easily, playfully address
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those conflicts so that they don't get in our way. Gotcha. And I think this, again, this is kind
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of counterintuitive because, or your approach in this book, because I think the typical approach
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when people have, when they think, well, I got to eat better, I have to exercise regularly, they think,
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well, I got to make these things a habit. And you make the case that behaviors like diet and exercise,
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they are actually very conducive to habit formation. Why is that?
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Yes. So first of all, let me just say, I love my flossing habit. I'm so glad I have an automatic
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habit to feed my dog in the morning or else he might starve. So habit formation and automatic habits are
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wonderful for simple behaviors that we depend on. The problem comes when we try to create automatic
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habits for complicated, complex behaviors. Habit formation is based on what's called the habit
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loop, which starts with some type of cue. It could be, you know, walking in the bathroom or brushing
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your teeth. Then you do the behavior, and then there's some type of reward. And that reward in our
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brain is very satisfying and helps create this association between the cue, the behavior, and then
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the reward. And thus, an automatic habit that we don't have to think about. And it makes, like,
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who wouldn't want to offload our choices? We have so much to think about every day.
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The problem happens with complicated, complex behaviors. Because if you think about something
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like flossing, where does it happen? And who's in there with you? Well, it mostly happens in the
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bathroom. And much of the time, there is no one else there to disrupt that cue from happening.
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But when it comes to physical activity or healthy eating, you know, we could be anywhere doing
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anything with any number of people with any number of unexpected, you know, curveballs coming our way.
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And the cues depend on a stable environment. And so with complicated behaviors, it's very hard for
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that cue to stay stable. Now, I do want to add a caveat and two caveats. One is nothing is ever true
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for everyone. So for example, this isn't true for my husband, who is what I call a habiter. He gets up
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at 530 in the morning before he has any distractions, anything to get in the way of his cue, the alarm,
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you know, getting him into the basement where he exercises. So people who are very disciplined and
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don't have a lot of disruption in their life, or what I call habiters, they tend to be able to form
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habits much more easily for complicated behaviors. But hopefully, the difference between forming a
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habit for flossing and forming a habit for, you know, following some type of healthier eating plan,
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No, I think it is clear because eating is a complex thing. There's timing can be off.
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Sometimes you are unexpectedly invited out to eat, right? And that wasn't part of the plan,
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but you still want to be social and engaged with these individuals. And so that throws you for a
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loop and your habit's not going to come in handy there because it's not the same routine.
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And again, oftentimes things that are common sense, we kind of easily adopt them and think,
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this makes sense. I'm going to do this. Or, you know, this was written about and it sounded
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really compelling. But the problem is, or not the problem is, the deal is, is that when it comes to
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making changes in behavior, there's always going to be assumptions underneath behavior change
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strategies. And if we don't know to look at those assumptions and see if we meet them or not,
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then we won't know if it's actually going to be the right fit for us.
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Got you. So yeah, one of those assumptions is that you can turn any, any behavior into a habit.
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Maybe if you're like, if you're like your husband, you might be able to do that. But if you're someone
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who's not as disciplined or conscientious, you're not going to be able to turn complex behavior,
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like exercise program into a habit. And you have to take that into consideration.
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Yeah. Not just person, not just personality is definitely an issue, but the other part of it is,
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you know, if you're managing the lives of many people and you're juggling multiple roles and
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responsibilities, that adds a level of unexpected chaos and hubbub that, you know, would make a
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habit very hard to stand the test of time. An automatic habit, I should say.
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Well, another issue with behaviors like eating and exercise, unlike flossing, flossing doesn't
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have a lot of emotional baggage typically. I mean, I typically, I get shamed every time I go to the
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dental dentist and the hygienist is like, they do that test where they check your pockets to see,
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and they can tell, oh, you got some four millimeter pockets here. I'm like, oh, geez.
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But I mean, I don't really, I don't have a lot of baggage about flossing, but exercise and diet,
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people over the years could develop just bad experience with those. And that can affect
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whether that becomes a habit or not. Right. And you know, that's something else that
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we don't think a lot about. So if we have any body shame that could be intertwined with exercising or
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trying to change your eating or discomfort or guilt or sense of failure, you know, for habits to form
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with that loop, we have to be able to have that reward. And so think about how feeling that those
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types of complicated negative emotions could really thwart having the reward that is actually needed to
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form a habit. So that's another one of the assumptions that you're mentioning.
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Okay. So instead of thinking of implementing these behavior changes of diet and exercise in
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terms of habits, you make this case that you should think of it in terms of life space and
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choice points. And this came from a social psychologist named Kurt Lewin. Can you tell us
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about his idea of decision-making and how you've taken that and applied it to diet and exercise?
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Sure. So a lot of people these days are talking about Kurt Lewin. His work has kind of had a
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resurgence after a long time. And, you know, Daniel Kahneman actually was talking about this idea and it
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was recorded on a Freakonomics episode. And so Daniel Kahneman said this was, I think he said,
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this is the best idea, a Nobel prize winning, let me say, you know, the man, Daniel Kahneman was saying
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that the best idea he's ever heard came from his mentor, Kurt Lewin, which is that instead of trying
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to drive a behavior, we should look at everything that gets in its way. And so if we take that idea
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and we think about the life space, which is the, everything we bring to a decision at the point
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of choice of any choice, that is our life space. And we bring our personalities to it. We bring
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our internal conflicts to it. I mean, we bring everything. And so at this life space, which is
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this choice point, this point of decision, we're coming with everything, not just, I really want to
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follow my plan, but I feel, I'll feel like a failure if I don't do it or this, you know, I know I can't
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do it. Why even bother? Or, oh no, my phone's ringing. It's my, you know, it's my, my kid's
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school. I better pick it up. I mean, everything comes to this moment of choice. So the question is
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which forces, and this is part of this idea that there's drivers and then there's disruptors at these,
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at every point of decision or what I'm calling choice points, there's drivers and disruptors.
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And so which is going to win out and, and whichever forces are more compelling at the, at the moment
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are going to basically flip the switch. Are you going to do the choice you hoped for? Are you not
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going to do it? Is there an alternative to the, to the choice? Gotcha. Okay. So just to reiterate with
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any choice, there's things driving us towards that choice. And I typically, when we think about
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behavior change, we think about that, like how can we drive ourselves to make the correct choice?
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But what Lewin says, you also have to think about what's disrupting, what's pushing you away from
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that choice. And I like Kahneman says, you should ask instead of how can I drive this behavior? Ask
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instead, why aren't I doing it already? I think that's really insightful.
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It is really insightful. And it's, it's kind of interesting to note that that is also,
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you know, habit formation is based on a driver model. Right. Yeah. Right. It's based on a reward
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driving a behavior and creating this unconscious association. So, you know, Kahneman saying,
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gee, we really would be the most strategic thing we can do is figure out what is actually getting in
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the way and addressing those things. And then this idea of not just choice points,
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but life space, thinking about the decisions in the broader context of your life. You can't just
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think of diet and exercise as separate from your life. We like to think we can do that,
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that there's sort of these separate systems, but in fact, they are part of our larger life experience.
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We have to integrate it with not only with work, but our family life, stress levels. And if you don't
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do that, you're just kind of kicking against the pricks.
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Yes. That's exactly right. But we haven't been taught as a society, we haven't been taught to
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think about the context, the many contexts that are around these desired changes in behavior. But
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just like you said, it's like if people start a business and they start businesses without
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business plans, but oftentimes, you know, investors are going to look to see, okay,
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have you done your analysis? What is it called? The SWOT analysis or some type of analysis where you
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show that you know, what are the opportunities, what are the challenges, what are the competitors?
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We really need to come to changes in behavior in that strategic way. And the reason why is because
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we often think about changes in behavior, like I'm motivated right now, this is what I want to achieve.
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But if we switch our perspective from this kind of intense motivation or the motivation bubble that
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gets us started to, gosh, I really want this behavior to stand the test of time through the ins and outs
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and ebbs and flows of my life. And that means I have to think about the context that it has to survive
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Okay. So let's talk about these disruptors that push us away from the decision we want to make.
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And you highlight four of them in your book. Let's talk about the first one. It's temptation.
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As a behavioral scientist, how do you define a temptation?
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You know, I define temptation, I would say more from my coaching than as someone who is,
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you know, actually done research on temptation. My experience is how people experience it,
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that I work with. And here's what they say. They say they feel like they're being seduced
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or pulled and it's a visceral experience. And it could be a pull toward that chocolate cake that
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they may not be on their eating plan or a pull toward the couch and, you know, HBO Max or something
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instead of the plan to go to the gym. And so we're used to thinking of temptation as something that
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controls us from the outside. But what I think is really interesting is the new theory are the new
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theories that are about temptation and desire. And they propose and there's research to support them
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that temptation, when we feel that visceral pull to do something like that, it's coming from inside
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our brain. It's not coming from the chocolate cake that's in front of us. It's coming from our history
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of experiences eating chocolate cake, not just the flavor, but the texture and the mood we were in when
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we ate it or the many times we ate it and who we were with and the connection we felt. And so I think
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it's really empowering to understand, no, it's not just that that cake looks good. It's that,
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and this, we could think of these as forces that are in our life space at these choice points. And so
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that's, in that chapter, I talk about how we can kind of harness this, these new theories that are
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about how our brains work and the different systems in our brain to help us address the visceral pull
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we might feel. I was going to say that, that theory with, in terms of food, you apply a grounded
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cognition theory. Yes. And that's what you're talking about. It's like all the feelings you
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experience when you see that, I don't know, that cheeseburger, right? Like, oh, I, I, when I had a
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cheeseburger when I had a kid, like, it made me feel good, have memories of it. Like, you're bringing
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that to, with you every time you have that choice to eat a burger or not. Yeah, that's exactly right.
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The grounded theory of cognition says, is all about the sense, the sensory experiences that go
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with it and the meanings that go with it. And to a great extent, many of them are under our
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consciousness. But the really cool thing is that once you learn about these things, once you learn
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that certain things are there, but you might not have been aware of it, you shine a light on those
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experiences and then you can be aware of them and name them, which also helps you have a better able to
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control impulses to succumb to a temptation that you might not want to succumb to. Yeah, you make
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this, you have the sentences, in its very essence, temptation is emotion remembered, basically.
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Yeah, I believe that came from an interview I did with Dr. Joel Nigg, who's an expert in executive
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functioning. Yes, it's, it is, I mean, isn't that a cool definition? It's, it's an emo, it's emotion
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remembered. And, but the memory can be, it doesn't have to be consciously remembered. It can be
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unconsciously remembered. And then with exercise, there's this idea of effective reflective theory
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of physical activity. Yes. Which kind of helps explain like why, like, ah, we, we, we want to
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exercise and we're like, ah, I don't actually, no, I don't want to. And then we decide not to.
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Yes. And so, I mean, those, they're different theories about different behaviors, but they,
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there are some similar, really kind of fundamental similarities. And, you know, one of the similarities
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is that our past experiences with the behavior, you know, contribute to the life space at the moment
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of choice. And if we had a negative experience or PE, or we feel self-conscious in the gym or,
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you know, whatever the reason is that those experiences, they call them in the paper,
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they say they tag exercise with an emotional meaning, or another word is branded. So our past
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experiences brand, have branded physical activity. And like any branding process, you know, it creates
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either an, a desire to approach something or a disdain to avoid it. And that's why we have to be
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so conscious of what these behaviors mean to us. And, and again, once we learn that,
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Right. And we, um, we had on the podcast a couple months ago, Judson Brewer, and you highlight his
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research as well, where he's using these ideas of grounded cognition theory and ART, this active
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reflective theory to update your emotional values to these behaviors. So that instead of being like,
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meh, like you're like, Oh yeah, actually I want to do those things. Cause I actually enjoy them.
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Yeah. Yes. And you know, the value-based decision-making and updating the value of something,
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I mean, really that was the biggest part of no sweat was helping people increase the value of
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exercise through converting it from a chore into a gift. And it, even though, you know, my process
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didn't explicitly talk about the underlying brain mechanisms that Judson Brewer talks about. And I
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am a big fan of his, by the way, that is what, that's what we're talking about. And that's what
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we need to do. I mean, that is part of the process. If you disdain exercise, no matter, you know, what
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your goal is, the research pretty clearly shows you just will not be able to sustain it. So, you know,
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the first step for someone is to figure out if you really disdain the eating plan you're trying to
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adopt or, you know, the exercise program you're trying to develop into a lasting change, starting
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with figuring out how to create a positive meaning and experience is really going to be the first part
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because those experiences are so potent emotion as, you know, we probably talked about this in our
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last interview that, you know, how we feel about something really determines whether we do it over
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time. So the emotions, the emotional meaning we have for any behavior is hugely impactful and we've
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got to be aware of that. And that is what the temptation chapter, that is, you know, we, that's
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the beginning, that's the tip of the iceberg on that question. We're going to take a quick break
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for your words from our sponsors. And now back to the show. So another disruptor is rebellion.
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And this is interesting because why would we want to rebel against a positive choice?
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Well, you know, when I, as soon as I say it, people are going to go, oh yeah. Well, because we rebel
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against having our freedom taken away, you know, via reactance theory, we know that human beings are
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motivated to reclaim their freedom when they feel that it's been removed. So on a higher level,
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if we're trying to exercise or change our, the way we're eating, because we think we quote unquote
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should do it, or our doctor told us to, or our company is somehow either incentivizing us in ways
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that feel controlling or punitive. Well, I'm going to want to rebel against that. I actually, I have a
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real, I have a story to really explain this. I have a colleague who worked for a company that
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well, I wouldn't say incentivized. There were, there were programs in place that he would pay less
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for monthly insurance if he lost weight and went to the gym and attended Weight Watchers and they
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tracked him, right? It was an electronic tracking system. And he, he did all these things to get the
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inexpensive health insurance. But as soon as he got home, he was like, screw this and just went to
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town. And that is rebellion, you know, that in its true essence. And guess what? He, he recognized what
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was going on and he's like, you know what? I'm going to pay the higher insurance premium because this is
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just a psychological nightmare and I'm not taking care of myself. So that might be an extreme example,
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but it really does reflect why we would rebel against something that we in theory think we
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really want. No, I've had that experience too. And you talk about this in the book. There's these
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companies who have developed apps that are geared towards better eating or exercising where they'll
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send you a notification and say, Hey, it's time to do your exercise. You just tap it. And then it gives
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you the workout. And what the research has found is that people actually rebel against that. I mean,
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the first time they're like, this is great. I'm getting this kind of coach, but then after a while,
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I was like, this is really annoying. And then they just turn it off and they don't want to do it
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anymore. I had that experience. I downloaded this app. It was a habit app actually to help me floss,
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right? Remind myself to floss. So it'd send me this notification at night on my smartwatch.
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And at first like, Oh, this is great. And then after a while, like, this is so annoying. And then
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it kept, keeps bugging you. It's like, it looks like you're not doing your flossing, Brett. And I'm
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like, I just deleted the app. I'm like, no, you're annoying.
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Yeah. Don't want to be a nudge. All right. So we have temptation. We have rebellion. Another one,
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a disruptor is accommodation. I think this happens a lot for people, particularly around their diet.
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Well, you know, well, it's, it's, it's different depending on which behavior, but let's jump,
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jump into the example that I use in the book. So accommodation reflects consistently placing your
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plans, your self-care plans, your exercise, exercise needs, whatever, always behind the needs
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of other people or the project. So if we're talking about eating, I had a client and she had a three
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family reunion every year at the same time. And people, you know, always bring these wonderful,
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delicious foods. And a few weeks or months before she, this very celebratory weekend happened,
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she had started following a new eating plan. She felt great. She was proud of herself. There was
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no rebelling in sight. I mean, this was, she was all in, but on one of the evenings, one of the,
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her, her friends took out a special cake that she had baked just for this occasion. And my client felt
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like she didn't have a choice about eating it. She was accommodating what she perceived as the
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celebratory needs of the full group. And so that's an example of how with accommodation,
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how someone with eating could think, gosh, I don't want to be a bummer. I don't want to burst the
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bubble. I don't want to be the no, you know, the no person, you know, and that's just one very
00:25:23.380
straightforward way with eating, how accommodation works. Of course, there are many other alternatives
00:25:28.840
to her, but she was so stuck in, I need to make sure I meet other people's needs that she couldn't,
00:25:37.180
she didn't have the consciousness or the mental prowess to figure out the many alternatives that
00:25:44.600
were there. Or like with exercise, that happens too as well. My kid needs to do this thing. So I'll
00:25:48.860
go do that thing with my kid instead of exercising. Yeah. Or I, my work is always more important.
00:25:55.060
And it's always more important, you know, trying to get to zero and inbox just in like, oh, oh yeah,
00:26:01.180
I know I had planned to go, you know, outside and take a walk, but I've got 50 emails. Let me see if
00:26:06.900
I get down to it. But it's like, if you consistently make those choices now, sometimes we have to make
00:26:11.560
the choices. That's not what accommodation is. Accommodation is consistently placing your
00:26:17.900
eating plans, your exercise goals, whatever they are below all these other needs.
00:26:23.860
And that's an easy one to fall into because you feel like you're being a good person. It's kind of
00:26:27.960
playing to your idea of altruism, but in the end, it's actually, it's hurting you.
00:26:32.240
It's, it's what, well, it's also what we've been taught to value in society. I mean, that's why we
00:26:36.840
think we're being a good person is, you know, we have been taught to be productive and to be successful
00:26:41.140
and to take care of all the people we love. But, you know, that's an extreme, we haven't been taught
00:26:47.700
that it's an extreme message, but really it's much more adaptive to be in the middle, right? If you're
00:26:53.060
always taking care of yourself to the exclusion of other people's needs, then you're selfish and
00:26:57.200
that's a bad thing, but really there's a middle ground. That's the sweet spot.
00:27:01.600
All right. The final disruptor is perfection. And I think we talked, I mean, we talked about this in
00:27:07.260
No Sweat as well, but how's that, how's this idea of perfection disrupt our good choices?
00:27:13.220
Well, perfection is, you know, I was, I'm going to say, this is the icing on the cake. I mean,
00:27:20.100
this is the cake and the icing, you know, and the platter. We've been taught to have all or nothing
00:27:25.860
thinking in society. And so when we come to a choice point where we had planned to, you know,
00:27:31.900
we were just talking about going outside and taking a walk and a conflict arises.
00:27:35.620
If I can't take the 45 minute walk, then the only alternative is nothing. And that is how most
00:27:44.100
people come to choice points. But, you know, in a way it's become a dogma that it's, we have very
00:27:50.660
perfectionistic ideas about what our exercise and our eating needs to look like. And this dogma has,
00:27:57.520
it blinds us to the, to the numerous, many options that are right in front of us, but we haven't
00:28:05.280
learned, we haven't been taught, been socialized to, to understand that being flexible is actually
00:28:13.360
the most adeptive response we can have so that the alternative to all or nothing is,
00:28:20.220
ta-da, something is better than nothing. Right. And I can see this, this perfection problem
00:28:25.900
hitting people, particularly if they decide to follow some strict, restrictive diet, like paleo
00:28:30.340
or whole 30 or whatever. It's like, well, I didn't do it today. What the hell? I'm just going to eat
00:28:35.240
this giant cake. Why not? Because I've already blown it. And that's what tends to happen. And
00:28:39.920
research shows when you come to these choice points with restrictive strategies, it boomerangs and
00:28:46.540
it backfires. But, you know, and again, I want to say, I want to say this here, because it's
00:28:51.720
appropriate. This is a place also where there might be individual differences where, you know,
00:28:57.580
someone, and I think it's the minority of people, but I do know some people who, you know, literally
00:29:02.680
have to follow their, you know, paleo diet to a T. The problem is, is that everyone has been taught
00:29:10.440
to follow whatever diet to a T. And that is not what research shows results in sustainable change for
00:29:18.320
most people. So what we need to do, I mean, we really need a revolution on this. We need to
00:29:23.880
revolutionize our thinking, our belief systems, our mindset, so that we begin to understand that
00:29:30.460
something is better than nothing. I'm going to make the perfect imperfect choice because that is what
00:29:36.720
will keep me on the path of lasting change. Okay. So every choice point we have when it comes to diet
00:29:41.120
or exercise, there's, there's possibly going to be a temptation there. You might have a feeling of
00:29:46.140
rebellion, accommodation, or perfection. And I guess for every person, it's going to be different
00:29:51.820
what that disruptor is, correct? Correct. Okay. And then, so I guess by knowing what the disruptor
00:29:57.880
is, it'll allow you to figure out how to approach this choice. Is that the idea? That's exactly right.
00:30:03.560
And, you know, if people are interested in seeing whether they, you know, how they score on these
00:30:09.040
disruptors or what I call traps, decision traps, there's a, there's actually a quiz on my website that
00:30:14.940
people can take. But the thing is, is that it's understanding what, again, self-awareness is
00:30:22.480
what we all need to make changes that we can stick with. So just, so being able to say, oh, I know
00:30:28.080
that this is my trap or this is, you know, one of the things that really gets in my mind. I'm noticing
00:30:33.000
it. Hello, temptation. I see you staring at me. The very act of naming, what has the propensity,
00:30:40.760
what has the possibility of derailing our choice or getting us into some kind of non-optimal self-talk
00:30:49.240
or self, you know, denigration, we can take some of that power away. So that's the power of knowing
00:30:56.560
what, what our traps tend to be. And then to counter, or like to make a, what do you call a
00:31:02.240
joy choice? You've developed this acronym called POP. And I like this, this sort of metaphor you've
00:31:06.300
created. These, these life choices that we experience are kind of like bubbles, right?
00:31:10.740
Like we have this idea of different possibilities, but everyone could be popped at any moment because
00:31:16.440
of circumstances. How we respond to how that original idea pops is what you talk about with
00:31:21.560
this acronym POP. So let's say we, we face this decision point with our diet or exercise, say we
00:31:26.800
want to exercise. We have this plan of what our, what our ideal workout plan would look like.
00:31:32.240
The choice is there, but then something comes up to interrupt it. How can this acronym of POP
00:31:37.220
help us navigate that choice point? Sure. So first let's think about it this way.
00:31:44.820
Usually at choice point, at choice points, life bursts our bubble, right? Like something happens and
00:31:51.420
we think we have all or nothing thinking and it just goes, our bubble goes down the drain, but instead
00:31:56.600
pop is this proactive self-owning action, I'm going to pop my plan metaphorically that we had,
00:32:05.200
cause we can't do it. And we can open up and release the options that are in front of us. So
00:32:10.020
POP now is an acronym that we are, you know, proactively choosing the process to go through.
00:32:16.980
It stands for pause because, you know, I didn't make up the wisdom of the pause. It's been around
00:32:24.080
for thousands of years. It, the pausing lets us both name our trap, which takes away some of its
00:32:31.080
power. It also gives us a space so that we can figure out how to respond instead of react unconsciously,
00:32:38.940
you know, through a trap or something else. It allows us to harness our conscious attention
00:32:45.720
so that we can engage our executive functions, which is our, which are our innate mental abilities
00:32:51.620
that let us problem solve. So that's what pause does. Then the O in POP is open up our options and
00:33:00.360
play. And that's just a fun opportunity to just think, what else could I do? I don't have 45 minutes
00:33:09.560
from my walk. I could walk for 15, or maybe I go down to the basement and ride the exercise bike
00:33:16.520
for five after dinner. Or maybe I see if a friend wants to take a walk, uh, for 10 minutes before dinner,
00:33:23.380
or I pop into the gym for seven minutes. I mean, there's all these options always available, but we
00:33:29.440
haven't been taught to think about it. And, you know, research shows that when we help people see
00:33:35.460
things in a certain way, it actually helps them embrace the concept. So by the very essence of the POP
00:33:42.220
process and acronym, people are learning how to think more adaptively. And then the third part of POP
00:33:51.020
is the second P, pause, open up your options and pick the joy choice. And the joy choice is anything.
00:34:01.640
It's the perfect imperfect option that lets us do something instead of nothing. And that could be
00:34:07.820
as simple as I am simply going to walk to the mailbox, which I might not have done. And that's
00:34:14.300
going to be my joy choice today because that's all the time I have, or that's all I have energy for.
00:34:20.080
And by its very essence, we are choosing to be consistent. And that is something that we can
00:34:33.600
No. And you can apply this POP to any one of those different traps, right? So I was thinking,
00:34:39.240
as you were talking about this, I was saying, well, say like your trap is accommodation,
00:34:42.360
right? You get invited out to dinner, which you weren't expecting to like the cheesecake factory.
00:34:47.400
And so you accommodate, you're like, well, I want to go because I want to be with these people that I
00:34:50.440
enjoy. But like, you could be like, okay, this doesn't fit my eating plan exactly. How can I still
00:34:56.020
join them in this, this dinner without it just disrupting things too much? And you could say,
00:35:01.140
well, I'll get a salad, a big salad instead of like the cheeseburger with the cheesecake afterwards.
00:35:06.320
Like that's a way you could use this POP process to counter the accommodation trap.
00:35:12.080
Yeah. I mean, you could say, you know, gee, I'd really like a hamburger and I want to participate
00:35:17.040
in the celebration, but I know the hamburger isn't going to make me feel great. So how about I have
00:35:21.120
half the hamburger? Like it's really about teaching people to make compromises that in the past would
00:35:29.840
have been considered as quote unquote failures. But in fact, it's the compromises, it's the trade-offs
00:35:36.220
that research suggests best keep us on the path of lasting change. So, and the more we do it,
00:35:43.300
the better at generating different options we get. So it is a process of learning and it might
00:35:49.660
not be, you know, people, it takes time to learn, you know, to memorize an acronym POP.
00:35:55.300
But I also suggest to my clients that they make a contact. So when they get to the choice point at
00:36:00.060
the beginning of learning it, they don't have to remember it right away. They can just pull up POP
00:36:05.260
and read it and go through the process. No, I've done this, like this POP process sort of
00:36:10.720
intuitively over the years, because I think one of my big troubles with working out consistently
00:36:15.920
was always perfection. It was like, well, if I can't do the actual workout, I'm not going to
00:36:20.300
work out at all. And a couple of years ago, it just changed to, well, I don't have time to get
00:36:25.320
the whole workout in. So I'll just do the main, like I do barbell training. So I was like, well,
00:36:28.680
if I can't get the whole thing in, I'll just do the main lifts and I won't do like the bicep curls
00:36:33.580
and the accessory work. I'll just clip that. Or I'll even reduce, I'm really clipped for time,
00:36:38.380
really short for time. So what I'll do instead of, I'll just do two sets instead of three sets.
00:36:42.920
And that'll shorten and allow me to get some work in. And then, you know, it's not the full
00:36:47.260
workout, but I got something in it. And it keeps that, I guess that flywheel turning of consistent
00:36:52.180
exercise in my life. That's exactly right. You know, in the past, when I might not have wanted
00:36:59.060
to go into the gym for 45 minutes and do a full set of, you know, hand weights, because I was just
00:37:06.200
exhausted. But I said, Michelle, you know what? Go in and do, you know, three sets of three,
00:37:13.220
like literally, like do a quarter or 20%. And instead of viewing it as not worth doing,
00:37:19.900
view it as the joy choice, the perfect and perfect option that lets you do something. I mean,
00:37:25.000
that is the new mantra. We've, that is what will get more people successful, feeling good and,
00:37:32.100
and staying consistent. It's so counterintuitive in a way that if we give ourselves permission to do
00:37:38.540
less than the ideal or the bullseye, that it's somehow we're failing, but it's the opposite.
00:37:46.200
When we let ourselves do less, we actually do more.
00:37:49.560
No, that's the thing. Every nutritionist I've talked to, health expert I've talked to,
00:37:53.140
the thing they say that will lead to lasting success is you just have to be consistent.
00:37:58.300
And that perfection, I think for a lot of people, the perfectionist thing gets in the way of being
00:38:02.900
consistent because they just, it's all or nothing. So if you can just do something,
00:38:07.480
that is probably better for you in the long run than just not doing anything at all.
00:38:15.720
When I actually, last week when I was giving a keynote, someone raised their hand and said, well,
00:38:21.280
how do we stop someone from creating a bad habit of, you know, not doing anything or not doing enough?
00:38:27.740
And, you know, it's a great question, right? But the answer is the other way doesn't work.
00:38:36.260
The other way for most people, which is trying to aim for a bullseye doesn't work.
00:38:41.720
So would you rather have people do less of, be consistent with doing less than,
00:38:48.900
you know, might be an optimal dose of something,
00:38:51.600
or would you rather have people do nothing of the gold standard? And, you know, the logic is clear
00:38:58.300
that a better model for the way our human brain works and the way our chaotic lives are lived is
00:39:06.940
that we have to learn how to be flexible. But it's one thing to tell people that being flexible is the
00:39:13.440
solution. And it's another thing to get them to really feel great about it. And that's the point
00:39:19.740
of the book. I want people to celebrate when they make the perfect and perfect choice.
00:39:26.260
Well, how do you do this process, this pop process, when you're feeling particularly
00:39:29.260
stressed or, you know, tempted? Because it is, you're bringing in your executive function to do
00:39:34.460
this. And, you know, the research has shown when you're really stressed out, like that executive
00:39:38.300
function kind of goes to the back burner and our lizard brain takes control. Is it just a matter
00:39:43.800
of practicing? It is a matter of practicing. And, you know, I find that when I'm stressed,
00:39:52.120
you know, the act of noticing that and saying, can I pop it? Like I use pop for everything now.
00:39:59.640
I don't just use it for choice points with exercise and eating. I use it, you know, when I might be
00:40:06.020
irritated at someone in my family, you know, can I pop this? What are my, let me pause me,
00:40:10.580
open up my options here. Let me pick the joy choice. Yes. So if we can name the stress and see
00:40:17.240
it, then we immediately take back some of the power in that situation. And then we can shift into
00:40:24.600
the, you know, harnessing our executive functions. You know, I really like what Judson Brewer says,
00:40:31.060
which is get curious. So as a first step, I think getting curious, hmm. And that's, he even says that,
00:40:38.920
hmm, I notice that I'm feeling stressed right now. I wonder what that's about. I think the
00:40:45.320
friendly we are, the more curious we can be instead of just feeling like, I can't believe it. Or when we
00:40:52.900
notice and have awareness, that gives us an observer perspective. And again, this is, you know,
00:40:59.300
paramount. This is core wisdom in the mindfulness movement. When we can self-observe, we really do have
00:41:06.560
much more control. And so the idea is that we can notice the stress and then shift into the pop
00:41:15.680
process. And I found it very empowering to say, I'm going to pop that stress or I'm going to pop
00:41:20.580
that anger or I'm going to pop that in my plan and see what else, what else I can do.
00:41:25.960
Yeah. As I was reading your book, I got, you were saying that you, you use this process for things
00:41:31.200
beyond eating and exercise. And I think it works for other complex behavior change as well. I mean,
00:41:36.300
I think typically people make near resolutions. Like I want to be less angry. And I think this,
00:41:40.680
this pop process can help you. Whenever you feel angry, it's like, I think about, okay,
00:41:44.680
what's going on here? What are my options besides lashing out? And then you pick the one that's
00:41:54.580
Yeah. Well, Michelle, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more
00:41:58.340
about the book and your work? I've had so much fun, Rhett. Thank you. People can go to my website,
00:42:04.060
which is my name, michelleseger.com. And I know that this is being aired on the 25th of April. So
00:42:12.040
if people are intrigued by the ideas we're talking about and want to learn more about the science or
00:42:17.800
method, if they order before the 26th midnight tonight, they can participate in my four session live
00:42:26.380
book club with a workbook. That's where we'll go deeper into these issues. So, but there's more
00:42:31.680
information on my website and the quiz too. Fantastic. Well, Michelle Seeger, thanks for
00:42:35.400
your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. My guest there is Michelle Seeger. She's the
00:42:39.740
author of the book, The Joy Choice. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find
00:42:43.740
more information about her work at our website, michelleseeger.com. Also check out our show notes
00:42:47.740
at aom.is slash seeger. We find links to resources. We delve deeper into this topic.
00:42:59.220
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at
00:43:02.960
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00:43:06.880
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