The Art of Manliness - Protein — Everything You Need to Know

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.640 Protein along with fat and carbohydrates make up one of the three basic macronutrients of

00:00:16.040 the human diet. Yet for something so fundamental, a lot of confusion exists around protein.

00:00:21.140 What's the best kind? How much do you need? When should you eat it? Here to clear up some

00:00:25.800 of that confusion is Don Lehman, professor emeritus of nutrition and one of the world's

00:00:30.220 foremost researchers on the subject of dietary protein. Today on the show, Don explains why

00:00:35.040 animal-based proteins are superior to plant-based proteins, why he thinks collagen is worthless,

00:00:40.180 how much protein you really need to consume, whether it depends on your activity level and age,

00:00:44.940 what happens when kids don't get enough protein, the optimal times of day to eat protein,

00:00:49.540 who needs to consume protein right after a workout and who doesn't, and whether you can get enough

00:00:53.500 protein in your diet if you do intermittent fasting. We enter a conversation with why Don

00:00:57.500 thinks increasing protein consumption can be the most effective way to lose weight.

00:01:01.620 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash protein.

00:01:14.660 All right, Donald Lehman, welcome to the show.

00:01:18.040 Glad to be with you, Brad.

00:01:19.100 Yeah. So you are a researcher that has done a lot of studies on nutrition, particularly

00:01:24.960 dietary protein. And I want to talk to you about protein today because I think a lot of people have

00:01:30.280 questions about protein. What's the best kind of protein? How much protein should I really be eating

00:01:35.280 in a day? When should I eat protein? And there's a lot of ideas floating out there in the popular

00:01:40.360 press. But let's start off with a sort of a brief overview of how our bodies use protein,

00:01:45.480 right? So like, I just had some chicken breast before we get on the show. I ate that piece of

00:01:50.420 chicken. How is my body going to use the protein from that chicken?

00:01:55.320 Yeah, you're right. I think protein's a complicated topic. And I think maybe we can simplify it a little

00:02:02.840 bit. So your chicken breast, I like to remind people that protein is kind of like a vitamin pill.

00:02:09.440 We really don't need the pill. What we need are the 14 vitamins inside of it. We don't talk about

00:02:15.920 the color of the pill or the digestibility of the pill. We talk about the vitamins. And that's

00:02:21.180 really what protein is. It's really just a food delivery system for amino acids. So when you eat

00:02:27.360 that chicken breast, the very first thing your body does is break that protein down into individual

00:02:33.720 amino acids. And there are 20 of them that are naturally occurring. Nine of them, our body can't

00:02:41.140 make. We call them essential or indispensable. We have to have them in a daily supply. The other 11,

00:02:48.440 the body can make it. It's sort of if you have enough of one amino acid, you can make another one.

00:02:54.440 So nine are essential, 11 are considered non-essential because we can make them. So once we digest it in our

00:03:02.280 GI tract, in our intestine, the body then absorbs them. How do we make them into protein or in the

00:03:09.660 body or muscle protein? Well, the first thing to recognize is that as these amino acids are getting

00:03:15.940 absorbed into the body, the body begins to use them. And about 50% of every amino acid that you take

00:03:24.880 in in a diet gets used before it ever gets to the blood. It gets used by the lining of the intestinal

00:03:31.300 tract, by the liver. And so only about 50% ever get to the blood. And of those, then the body will

00:03:38.860 use some for energy and some can get made into protein. So in muscle, about one out of every seven

00:03:46.920 amino acids going into a new muscle protein comes from the diet. And the other six actually are getting

00:03:54.440 reused. So the whole system gets pretty complex at that point. But sort of the point of all that is

00:04:02.100 that a single amino acid in that chicken breast you ate, it's kind of hard to track it directly into a

00:04:09.000 new protein and muscle. So that's sort of the complexity. And we can go from there as to, you

00:04:14.300 know, how do we sort out the need and different quality and protein? But that's sort of how the body's

00:04:19.100 using them. Okay. So protein is the delivery for amino acids. Exactly. And protein doesn't just make

00:04:26.040 muscle tissue, but it also makes other tissue in our body. It's like, I think fingernails, hair

00:04:31.220 needs protein. Sure. And in the body, all adults and even children, you know, anyone over the age of

00:04:39.740 about 16 has to make 250 to 300 grams of new protein in the body every day. Proteins that are in your liver,

00:04:49.180 we're replacing them almost hourly. Proteins in the blood might last 15, 16 days. Proteins in the muscle

00:04:58.740 might last 30 or 40 days, but we're continuously replacing those. In fact, if you sort of look at it on a

00:05:07.740 total body basis, we replace the equivalent of every protein in our body about four times per year.

00:05:15.100 So there's this big turnover going on all the time. And that's important as we repair our body and sort

00:05:22.280 of in the aging process, repair and replacement is really important. Let's talk about protein and

00:05:28.680 muscle. People typically, that's what they associate. I'm going to consume protein to grow muscle tissue.

00:05:32.980 And the process where our body turns amino acids that we've consumed into muscle tissue,

00:05:39.620 that's called muscle protein synthesis, correct? Right. So protein synthesis is a term of every

00:05:46.800 tissue, whether you're talking about the heart or the brain or the liver or muscle. So it's protein

00:05:51.960 synthesis. And as you point out, people have kind of focused on muscle, but in every tissue, it's the

00:05:57.980 same. Okay. So let's talk about the type of protein we consume. How does the type of protein we consume

00:06:04.760 influence protein synthesis? Yeah. So again, we talk about protein is just a food delivery system

00:06:12.280 for amino acids. So the type of protein really reflects the balance of amino acids. And as I said

00:06:20.940 at the beginning, we absolutely require the nine essential amino acids. And so if you look at different

00:06:27.760 proteins, whether you're talking about a dairy protein like whey protein or a plant protein like soy

00:06:34.640 protein, you look at the distribution of those nine essential amino acids, and every protein's a little

00:06:41.340 different. What we know though, is that proteins that come from animal sources, and in this case,

00:06:48.460 I'll include eggs and fish, all sort of animal sources versus plant sources. Proteins that come from

00:06:55.540 animal sources always have a better distribution and a higher distribution of those essential amino

00:07:02.880 acids. If you want to think about it, plants have amino acids for the sake of plants. They're not

00:07:10.860 assuming they're going to get eaten. So they have it to make roots and stems and flowers and seeds,

00:07:16.780 which are pretty different than brains and hearts and skin and muscle. So the way to think about it is,

00:07:23.680 you know, plant proteins have amino acids to making plant products, you know, plant structures.

00:07:31.800 And so I think one of the research you found, I've read this other places, that

00:07:35.240 part of the problem with plant-based proteins is that they don't have enough of a particular type

00:07:41.440 of amino acid that helps kickstart protein synthesis, correct?

00:07:44.820 Right. So of those nine essential amino acids, there are three that we often say are limiting

00:07:54.260 in plants. And those three are lysine, methionine, and leucine. Of those three, one that I've studied

00:08:03.420 a lot is called leucine. And what we discovered was that leucine has a very unusual role in triggering

00:08:13.060 muscle protein synthesis. For reasons we don't fully understand, the body has evolved to recognize

00:08:22.020 the increase in leucine in the blood as a indicator that the meal was well enough balanced to trigger

00:08:31.320 muscle protein synthesis. Another way to sort of think about that is in the liver, you have to be

00:08:37.780 making proteins 24 hours a day. If you're not making them in the middle of the night, you're going to

00:08:43.200 die. I mean, you just have to be making them. Same with the brain or the heart. In muscle, we only do

00:08:49.880 it when we have a meal that is adequate. We call it an anabolic response to a meal. And for whatever

00:08:57.740 reason, the body evolved to recognize leucine as that signal that the meal is adequate. So leucine is a very

00:09:06.260 important amino acid for defining what we call protein quality. Is there enough leucine to trigger

00:09:13.120 muscle protein synthesis? And that's why people who do a vegetarian diet, they have a harder time

00:09:19.520 getting the necessary proteins. The plant base doesn't have enough leucine.

00:09:24.800 Right. So if you look at, just for example, if you look at whey protein, which is a protein that's

00:09:32.260 become very popular with people who are trying to build muscle, if you look at the amino acids in

00:09:38.880 whey protein, 12% of those amino acids are leucine. But if you look at a grain like quinoa, which people

00:09:47.260 think of as a really good plant-based protein, leucine is 6%. So you have to have twice as much quinoa

00:09:56.620 protein to trigger protein synthesis. That translates into something over seven cups of quinoa at a meal

00:10:03.240 to trigger muscle protein synthesis. So from a calorie standpoint, from a volume standpoint,

00:10:09.600 it's hard to eat enough plant-based protein to get to the leucine number.

00:10:13.860 Yeah. It sounds like you'd have a lot of gas. You'd be bloated.

00:10:17.280 Yeah. I mean, you get a lot of fiber. I mean, quinoa, in my mind, quinoa is a great carbohydrate

00:10:23.100 source that happens to have good protein in it. So it's a great fiber. It has good nutrients. It's

00:10:29.940 a great food, but it's a pretty poor protein source alone. So you really need to have something else

00:10:36.320 with it, whether you're going to mix, say, soy protein with it or tofu, or you need higher protein

00:10:43.980 sources to make it work.

00:10:45.580 Can you supplement with leucine to kickstart protein synthesis?

00:10:49.760 You can at some level. We have done that sometimes in situations like somebody is ill in a hospital

00:10:58.340 and they just can't eat much. We've shown and others have shown that if you take in 15 grams

00:11:04.160 of protein, but then supplement that with leucine, you can get up to that threshold to stimulate muscle

00:11:11.300 protein synthesis. We know that you need to have around three grams of leucine in the meal.

00:11:17.120 So you could get say one and a half from plant-based proteins and add in another one and a half as a

00:11:24.120 supplement of leucine and you can get to that three gram level.

00:11:27.980 Okay. So in terms of delivering amino acids, animal-based is going to be superior to plant-based

00:11:33.720 proteins. Of the animal-based proteins, are some better than others? We're talking like meat or egg or

00:11:40.600 whey. I think you have to decide what your goal is. If your goal is to have a breakfast that stimulates

00:11:50.400 muscle protein synthesis, and that's really your only goal, then whey makes a perfect shake because

00:11:56.580 it's very high in leucine. You can stimulate muscle protein synthesis with only about 23, 24 grams of

00:12:04.580 protein. On the other hand, if you're thinking about a balanced diet, something like beef protein is a

00:12:11.640 great source because not only is it a good source of the essential amino acids like leucine, but it's

00:12:18.740 also very rich in iron and zinc and selenium and B6 and B12. So you have to think about what your goal

00:12:26.500 is. Eggs is another example where the egg is a very balanced nutrient overall, vitamins, minerals,

00:12:33.780 as well as protein. So you kind of have to think about the balance there. Fish, for example, is a

00:12:40.500 very good protein source, but the vitamins and minerals tend to be lower. So again, what's the

00:12:46.600 balance? And I think that's why nutrition, we've always said, well, have a varied diet. Don't believe

00:12:53.340 that, well, the only protein I should eat is fish or the only protein I should eat is white meat

00:12:59.100 chicken. Those are good protein sources, but actually low in other nutrients.

00:13:05.260 Yeah, I think that's interesting. You got to think about the whole picture, not just protein.

00:13:08.640 Yeah. You know, in general right now, we're beginning to focus more on what we call the food matrix.

00:13:14.640 You know, we've had a, what we might call a reductionist approach for a long time where we think

00:13:19.820 about a food, well, does it have enough vitamin C or does it have enough vitamin D or does it have

00:13:24.800 enough of amino acids? But now we're trying to think about it more as a meal complex and a whole

00:13:31.620 diet. Well, speaking of this idea that protein is just a delivery capsule for amino acids, we talked

00:13:38.240 about the fact that you can supplement leucine. Can you get the benefits of all the amino acids just by

00:13:43.980 taking an amino acid supplement? You can. That's incredibly expensive to do, to take in enough

00:13:51.260 protein to, you know, to get a hundred grams of amino acids per day would be an incredibly expensive,

00:13:58.020 but people have certainly shown it in hospital situations. You know, people who can't eat, 0.99

00:14:03.860 we can do an IV into their arm or whatever and supply those amino acids. So that certainly can be done.

00:14:11.920 My attitude about that is a little like people self-supplementing with vitamins. Do you really

00:14:17.640 have enough knowledge to do the chemistry that resembles food intake that has evolved over a

00:14:24.200 million years? You know, I don't think most people have the resources or the knowledge to really do

00:14:31.820 supplementation. Okay. What about collagen proteins? I've been seeing a lot about that. I'm at Whole Foods

00:14:37.480 and I see a lot of rows of collagen proteins. What's the quality of collagen proteins?

00:14:42.420 Collagen, by any measure, is the single worst protein you could ever see. Okay.

00:14:48.780 It's deficient in at least four essential amino acids. It's one that I always sort of scratch my

00:14:55.120 head at. I look at all these testimonials out there that people think that collagen's great,

00:15:00.540 but the reality is from a scientific research standpoint, it's awful. I think it's a total

00:15:07.340 waste of money. So obviously I'm really negative about it. On the other hand, there's a lot of

00:15:13.080 people who believe in it. So, you know, I sort of remain open-minded, but at the same time,

00:15:18.960 I've seen no data to make me believe that it's anything more than just a nitrogen source.

00:15:25.440 When you look at the true protein requirement, it's actually two parts. The first part is getting

00:15:31.760 the nine essential amino acids, and the second part is getting additional nitrogen. That nitrogen

00:15:38.440 we refer to as nonspecific. And I think, for example, collagen is nothing more than a nitrogen source.

00:15:45.700 So, you know, if you have a relatively low protein diet and you want to supplement it with expensive

00:15:52.200 collagen, I guess that works. But if you're just trying to get adequate protein, collagen's a

00:15:59.080 lousy source. Okay. So the takeaway there, quality, the type of protein, animal-based is going to be

00:16:04.500 your best bet to get all nine of the essential amino acids in the right dosage to kickstart and

00:16:09.580 have muscle protein synthesis going on. If you're doing a vegetarian diet, you might have to supplement

00:16:14.800 with a higher source protein, like a soy protein. And then, yeah, wasting your money with collagen

00:16:19.580 and amino acids. Nature's already got the pill for you. It's animal-based protein. So just go with

00:16:25.200 that. Yeah, that's exactly right. And people, you know, will often say, well, he's really negative

00:16:30.480 about vegetarianism. That's not really the case. My problem with it is that if you look at the data,

00:16:38.820 all the survey data, what you see is that vegetarians typically have lower protein intakes and they have

00:16:45.240 lower protein quality. So that's a risk, you know, and I think that if you're making that lifestyle

00:16:51.400 choice, you need to understand it. My personal preference would be a blended. I don't think it's 1.00

00:16:56.500 all or nothing. I think you can be more plant-based. I think that's great. But using fish or eggs or

00:17:03.960 cheese or something to make it more balanced, I think is a better choice. So, you know, I have no

00:17:11.380 problem with being plant-based. Being totally vegan is a real challenge. You're sort of forced to go to

00:17:17.280 ultra-processed foods. You need to have things like soy protein isolates or pea protein isolates to

00:17:24.260 supplement your diet. Or like you said, maybe essential amino acids, which are very expensive.

00:17:29.940 So, you know, it's just a challenge. And my fear is the average adult doesn't have the knowledge to

00:17:37.040 make that work. All right. So, let's talk about how much protein we should be consuming because there's

00:17:42.520 a lot of different numbers out there in the popular press. What's the typical amount that's

00:17:47.440 recommended? I think it's the National Academy of Medicine has put out like a recommended daily

00:17:52.620 amount. What's the amount that they recommend and what has your research shown to be an optimal amount

00:17:58.260 of protein? Okay. So, the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine sort of sets

00:18:04.700 dietary guidelines. So, let's take a non-protein example. So, vitamin C, with every nutrient,

00:18:12.820 the Institute of Medicine recommends a range for the nutrient. So, for vitamin C, the low end of the

00:18:20.680 range, which we call the RDA, recommended dietary allowance, is 60 milligrams. But we know that you can

00:18:28.280 go to an upper range with vitamin C of maybe up to 10 grams per day, you know, more than 10 times the

00:18:37.200 minimum RDA. So, we know that the RDA prevents a deficiency, scurvy, but when you get a cold or,

00:18:45.220 you know, concerned about COVID or something like that, people will take 500 milligrams or 1,000 milligrams.

00:18:51.800 So, the difference between the minimum and the optimum. So, let's apply that to protein. The Institute of

00:18:59.160 Medicine sets the minimum, the RDA, at 0.8 grams per kg, which is around 0.3 grams per pound. But it says

00:19:09.340 there's a range up to some upper limit, and we know that is up around a gram per pound. So, a big range

00:19:17.300 there. What we now know is the optimum range for most adults is somewhere between about 0.5 and 0.7

00:19:26.080 grams per pound. 1.2 to 1.8 grams per kg is the way we talk about it. So, again, we need to recognize

00:19:34.920 that for every nutrient, there's a range of intake. The RDA, which people hear about, is the minimum to

00:19:43.520 prevent a deficiency. In fact, it's defined at a level where 97% of the people don't show a deficiency,

00:19:51.080 but 3% will actually show a deficiency. And if we look at national survey data, what we know is that

00:19:59.340 in women over 60 years of age, 40% are actually below the RDA. So, in general, women in particular

00:20:08.880 are particularly low in their dietary protein intake. Men are a little bit higher, but still

00:20:14.940 not up in the range that we think is optimal. Okay. So, just to put some concrete numbers to

00:20:20.120 this, okay, the RDA is the minimum you need to make sure you're not wasting away. So, let's say

00:20:25.620 you're a 200-pound man. Would you say the RDA was about 0.36 grams? Yeah. So, the range of intake in

00:20:32.360 the United States, the RDA, depending on body weight, is sort of between about 56 and 66 grams

00:20:40.960 per day. Average intake in the United States is around 80. We think that most adults should be

00:20:48.800 above 100. And again, it's body weight. So, you know, if you take a 250-pound male, that person will

00:20:56.940 have twice the amount of protein as a 125-pound female. That's crazy that most people are only 0.79

00:21:03.260 getting 80 grams of protein a day. That's the average based on the national surveys. Again,

00:21:09.540 men a little higher, maybe a little closer to 90, and women a little lower, closer to 70. But the

00:21:15.380 average is 80. Okay. Do protein requirements change for men and women? So, if you're a man,

00:21:20.520 do you need more protein than women? It's based on lean body mass. It's based on body weight. So, 1.00

00:21:26.080 men typically are going to weigh more than women, so they need more protein. But it's, 0.97

00:21:31.920 you know, a 150-pound woman and a 150-pound man would have essentially the same requirements. 1.00

00:21:39.040 Okay. Slightly different because typically women will have a little more body fat, a little less 1.00

00:21:44.020 lean body mass. But in essence, the requirements are the same based on body weight.

00:21:50.580 Does the requirement change or the optimal amount change if you're physically active?

00:21:54.320 That's a good question. Interestingly enough, people generally assume that, well, if I'm lifting

00:22:00.580 weights and building, you know, trying to build body mass, I need more protein. It's actually

00:22:06.380 endurance exercise. We know that endurance exercise burns about 10 grams of protein per hour of exercise,

00:22:14.240 like running, a marathon runner, for example. So, if you go out and doing, you know, three-hour runs,

00:22:20.680 by definition, you need 30 grams of more protein than normal.

00:22:25.180 Okay. So, whenever you exercise, you're going to need more protein. And that's not just for

00:22:29.120 weightlifting. I think that's really interesting. If you do a lot of endurance sports, you need to be

00:22:33.680 increasing your protein intake a lot. Speaking of, you know, consuming protein because you're lifting

00:22:39.060 weights to get stronger, I think a lot of people have this idea that, well, if I megadose on protein,

00:22:44.780 it's going to help me build more muscle tissue. But your research has found that probably at a

00:22:49.860 certain point, consuming more protein won't have any benefit.

00:22:54.380 Yeah. Our methods aren't great for determining sort of small differences between protein intakes.

00:23:01.920 What we find is that a lot of bodybuilders will look at an intake of like a gram per pound,

00:23:08.780 which translates into about 2.2 grams per kg. The research shows we really can't tell any

00:23:16.020 difference between 1.8 grams per kg and 2.2. So, you know, most bodybuilders are probably over-consuming

00:23:24.760 protein. But again, you know, they're looking for sort of a maximum effort. So, I don't see any problem

00:23:31.200 with that. But the research doesn't really support any real benefit above about 1.8 grams per kg.

00:23:38.760 And again, I think that translates into about 2.8 grams per pound.

00:23:43.820 Okay. So, yeah, I consume right now, I'm doing about a gram per pound. So, I get about 200 grams.

00:23:50.460 I'm 190.

00:23:52.500 That's very common for people who are trying to lift weights. And again, you have to think about

00:23:58.860 protein in the context of the whole diet. So, if you don't eat 200 grams of protein, what are you going

00:24:05.100 to eat? And a lot of people say, well, I want to be sure I don't eat the carbohydrates because that

00:24:10.440 causes me to retain more water and I don't like the way I feel or whatever. I have, you know,

00:24:16.040 tendency toward diabetes. So, you know, from a pure muscle building standpoint, we think that around

00:24:23.340 0.8 grams per pound is totally adequate. But there's nothing wrong with a gram per pound if

00:24:29.280 that sort of suits your needs. What happens with the excess protein that your body doesn't need?

00:24:35.040 Excess is an interesting concept. Let's think about you in terms of a gram per pound per day. You know,

00:24:41.460 how much muscle mass are you gaining this week? Probably nothing. So, if you're eating 200 grams

00:24:50.340 of protein per day, where is it going? Basically, you have to burn every one of those grams, the

00:24:56.660 equivalent of every one. So, basically, whether you eat 60 grams of protein per day or 200 grams of

00:25:04.360 protein per day, you're going to burn it all for energy. You use it for protein synthesis,

00:25:09.720 but at some level, you have to get rid of every gram or you have to store it in some way,

00:25:15.880 which means you're gaining weight. So, again, people think about burning the excess. The reality

00:25:22.160 is, I mentioned at the beginning, 50% of the amino acids that come into the body are burned in the GI

00:25:28.320 tract or the liver before they ever get to the blood. So, this whole concept of burning the excess

00:25:33.860 is kind of a vague concept because we're always burning everything we eat.

00:25:38.280 So, we're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:25:43.340 And now, back to the show.

00:25:45.140 And I also, I think it's important to note that you highlight research that eating a high-protein

00:25:50.960 diet, it's not going to damage your kidneys. I mean, that's an idea that's out there, right?

00:25:54.460 Like, too much protein is bad for you. If you do have some sort of kidney disease,

00:25:59.120 a high-protein diet might be an issue. But if you're healthy, eating a lot of protein won't do

00:26:03.640 anything to you. Basically, like you said, any excess protein will be used in the body for

00:26:08.300 something else. So, yeah, I think the big takeaway there overall is that if you're a physically active

00:26:12.840 male, like 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of body weight is probably what you're looking at.

00:26:19.640 So, that's a target where the science shows, you know, has really good data. We think that's

00:26:25.760 the upper range that makes any sense. And frankly, the research shows 0.8 is probably adequate,

00:26:32.480 but there's nothing wrong with going to a gram per pound.

00:26:35.600 All right. So, if you're a 200-pound man, that would be 160 grams per day.

00:26:40.060 Right. You know, up to 200, as you pointed out.

00:26:43.740 And people, I think that's a lot of protein. But I mean, it's not... Once you kind of figure

00:26:46.980 things out, you know what's a high source of protein. And it's easily the supplement with

00:26:51.920 a whey protein. Whey protein is fantastic. It's cheap. And you can get a lot of great protein

00:26:56.900 bang for your buck with it.

00:26:58.080 Yeah. I think most people find that amount of protein pretty hard to consume. Most women, 1.00

00:27:05.040 we've done a lot of research with women, particularly looking at weight loss. We find it 1.00

00:27:11.000 extremely difficult to keep women above 100 grams per day. I personally eat probably 100 to 120 per

00:27:18.260 day. I weigh about 160 pounds. So, you know, again, I think if you're motivated toward bodybuilding,

00:27:26.960 that's great. But again, we think the healthy range is sort of in that, you know, a lower end

00:27:35.020 of about 0.55 grams per pound up to a gram per pound. So, falling within that range is probably

00:27:43.660 okay, depending on your personal goals. Something I've heard is that as you get older,

00:27:49.720 you know, to your 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, you have to consume more protein. Is that true?

00:27:55.680 What we know is that the efficiency of protein use goes down with age. Where does that start?

00:28:03.220 We think it starts somewhere around 40, maybe 35. We know that when you're still growing,

00:28:10.540 your body is kind of driven by hormones. So, when you're in your teens or in your 20s,

00:28:15.940 your body is making protein driven by growth hormone, IGF-1 insulin. Once you stop growing,

00:28:23.900 now you're going to the maintenance phase. We know that everything we've been talking about,

00:28:28.500 all of this meal balance kind of thing. That starts to come into play in your mid-30s. So,

00:28:34.780 your point about the efficiency going down, we think that starts in the 40s. So, people need to

00:28:40.520 be making adjustments in their 40s. And certainly, by the time you get out into 60 and 70, now you're

00:28:47.680 confronted with the issue that your total calorie needs per day begin to go down, but your protein need

00:28:53.920 is at least as high as when you were 16 or 25. But now you need to get it in less total calories.

00:29:02.360 So, the quality of your diet needs to go up. Your nutrient density needs to go up. You need to get

00:29:07.840 more amino acids per calorie you eat. And it probably, you know, is it higher than when you're 25?

00:29:15.800 It might be. It might actually be higher. I think it's one of the reasons why you tend to find more

00:29:22.120 vegetarians who are between 20 and 40 than you do between 60 and 80. You're just really hard to pull

00:29:29.740 that off to get the protein you need with the reduced calories. 0.52

00:29:35.280 So, just correct me if we're on here, make sure I understand. So, as you get older, does our body just

00:29:38.780 become less responsive to protein and we just have to consume more of it to kickstart that protein

00:29:43.920 synthesis? Exactly. When you're young, muscle protein synthesis and a mechanism we know of as mTOR

00:29:51.940 is very sensitive to insulin. And so, you grow because of hormones. Once you get beyond mid-30s,

00:30:00.780 now it becomes sensitive to the quality of the protein and particularly that amino acid leucine. So,

00:30:06.520 we're changing how the body regulates muscle protein synthesis. And as we get older,

00:30:13.360 it becomes more and more sensitive to the leucine amount.

00:30:17.960 Okay. So, any recommendations there, just concrete numbers? If you're, say you're 70 years old.

00:30:23.820 We know that the leucine trigger amount is about three grams. Probably, you begin to get a response

00:30:31.800 at like 2.5 grams. Some people have used up to four. We usually use the number of three grams of

00:30:38.720 leucine as your target to activate that system. So, if you look at a mixed diet, then let's say

00:30:46.000 you're having a meal that has some animal protein, some plant protein. We usually use the number of

00:30:53.540 around 8% leucine in a mixed meal. So, that means your minimum threshold, you may have seen the meal

00:31:00.840 number of like 30 grams, 30 to 35 grams per meal. That's assuming leucine makes up about 8% of the

00:31:08.300 protein. So, to get to 2.5 to 3 grams, you need at least 30, 35 grams of total protein. So, that's

00:31:15.360 where that meal number comes from. Okay. So, to recap, as you get older, your body becomes less

00:31:21.600 sensitive to protein. So, you may need to increase protein intake to make up for that. So, I think the

00:31:28.160 big takeaway there is just, yeah, as you get older, be more aware of your protein and then

00:31:33.300 think about how much protein you're getting at each meal. And we're going to talk more here about

00:31:37.620 protein distribution. But let's talk about kids. What do we know about the protein requirements for

00:31:43.400 children? So, they change during aging. So, in the first year, the two years, the protein requirement is

00:31:52.520 that 2.2 grams per kg, so a gram per pound. So, as a child, as a very young child, it's now what we're

00:32:00.860 talking about for older adults. Okay. The belief then is as the rate of growth slows down, it slowly

00:32:08.260 goes from 2.2 down to 0.8 for a 16-year-old. So, there's that shifting process. I think the research

00:32:18.660 is beginning to question, does it really go down like that? We know that, you know, your rate of

00:32:24.920 building protein is slowing down, but you're building and replacing so much protein that actually

00:32:31.220 isn't growth. So, I think we're beginning to question that. One of the important things about

00:32:37.340 children versus adults is for adults, we're now talking about the meal distribution of protein

00:32:43.480 and leucine. So, we talk about having 35 grams of protein per meal to get enough leucine. That

00:32:50.720 doesn't seem to be true for children. Children will respond at very small meals. If a child has

00:32:57.260 5 grams of protein at a snack or 10 grams for protein for breakfast, they'll grow perfectly fine.

00:33:05.280 Muscle protein synthesis is perfectly fine. So, an average 10-, 12-year-old is probably targeting around

00:33:11.260 50 grams per day. And that can be distributed kind of in any way they want. It's not meal-specific like

00:33:18.020 it is for adults. Okay. So, with kids with body weight, what's the ratio? How many grams per

00:33:24.120 kilogram are you looking at for a child? Is it the same for an adult? So, again, it's, you know,

00:33:28.960 the RDA for children over like 6 is that, you know, 0.35 grams per pound. Okay. So, it's the RDA.

00:33:38.920 0.8 grams per kg. Okay. And again, that's just the minimum. Do we know what happens if kids don't

00:33:45.180 get adequate protein in childhood? Does it have any long-term effects? Oh, yeah. I mean, the biggest

00:33:50.640 international problem with malnutrition is availability of protein. So, with growth stunting,

00:33:56.120 there's a lot of, you know, early in my career, I did a lot of international work with children and

00:34:01.740 malnutrition and growth stunting. And so, we know that if children don't develop the lean body mass

00:34:09.600 they should when they're young, there's a real high risk that they're going to be obese. If they don't

00:34:16.680 have the lean body mass, they'll tend to deposit more body fat. So, one of my concerns now is that,

00:34:23.780 you know, as mothers are hearing about everybody should have a more plant-based diet,

00:34:28.960 and they start translating that to children, there's a real risk that we're going to induce

00:34:34.840 malnutrition in children. They're just not going to grow correctly. And that's a long-term risk.

00:34:40.520 One of the examples I like using is if you take a common wheat cereal and the serving size might be,

00:34:49.940 let's say it's a cup, has four grams of plant protein, say a wheat protein. If you look on the

00:34:55.600 label, they'll say, well, you take that cereal and you mix it with six grams of milk, we now have 10

00:35:03.100 grams, and that turns out to be exactly balanced for essential amino acids. But now we're hearing

00:35:09.060 about plant-based proteins, and so they say, well, switch to soy milk. Well, we're not telling people

00:35:16.360 very well, and I don't think they get, is that soy milk is deficient in the same amino acids that the

00:35:22.860 wheat cereal is deficient in. And so to get a balanced protein mix, you have to have over 25 ounces of soy

00:35:30.320 fluid, milk, to balance that meal. 25 ounces, we're nearing a quart. And if you go to almond milk, which is

00:35:38.080 even worse, now you need over 50 ounces to make that work. So mothers need to recognize that basically if 1.00

00:35:46.200 they're doing that with plant-based milks, they're creating an amino acid imbalance. And while I said

00:35:52.480 that younger children can get along with protein at any meal, they still have to have a balanced ratio

00:35:59.200 of essential amino acids. So my comment earlier is that I'm not sure most adults have the knowledge of

00:36:07.480 how to create totally vegetarian diets. They might be able to do it, but very few can.

00:36:15.360 Okay. So kids who don't get enough protein in childhood, they're not going to develop lean muscle

00:36:19.720 mass. And as a consequence, they might develop more adipose tissue, which could result in type 2

00:36:26.680 diabetes, metabolic syndromes. Exactly. So that's what we saw with the international work. If the

00:36:33.600 children are gross stunted, did not develop the lean body mass during their early, you know, their

00:36:40.240 first 14, 15 years, then they're prone to developing obesity. And as you said, all of the diseases that

00:36:48.220 go with that, diabetes, heart disease, et cetera, they're much more prone to those kinds of things.

00:36:54.600 Let's shift to protein timings. That's something I think a lot of people have read about, that there's

00:36:58.840 certain times of the day that it's better to eat protein. Is there anything to that idea? Like, you know,

00:37:03.460 should you consume protein after a workout? Is morning or dinner better time for protein?

00:37:08.920 So let's sort of complete the comment with children. As I wanted to emphasize, timing doesn't

00:37:14.620 seem to be as important for children. So when we talk about timing, we're talking about adults.

00:37:20.780 What the research shows is that probably the first meal of the day may very well be the most

00:37:28.700 important. We know that we're coming out of an overnight fast. We know that all of the mechanisms

00:37:35.120 for muscle protein synthesis are shut down. And until you eat a protein meal that has enough leucine,

00:37:42.620 till you get to 35 grams of protein at a meal, your muscle stays what we call catabolic. It's breaking

00:37:50.220 itself down. So we think that the first meal is critical. We also think that a later meal,

00:37:57.240 what we don't really know is the, you know, how important is the middle meal? So, you know,

00:38:02.860 something you might do in middle of the day, nobody's really studied that. So we don't really

00:38:07.200 know, but we do, we know for a hundred percent certainty that that first meal, and I'm, I'm sort

00:38:12.620 of avoiding calling it breakfast because that implies that it needs to be super early or something,

00:38:18.040 but whenever you choose to eat it, whether it's seven in the morning or 11 in the morning,

00:38:22.880 that first meal needs to be high protein. You mentioned after exercise, we did a lot of research

00:38:29.580 and others have done a lot of research with exercise because exercise is sort of a catabolic

00:38:36.640 period. Protein synthesis is depressed. And so we're looking at recovery. How's the best way to build

00:38:42.500 muscle? The thing to remember about that is almost all of that research is done with untrained

00:38:49.280 individuals doing an acute exhaustive exercise. What we know is that the more trained you are,

00:38:57.860 probably the less important that becomes. So if you're just beginning an exercise, you're out of

00:39:03.940 shape, you're just beginning having protein, you know, 15, 20 grams after your exercise within the

00:39:10.860 next hour or so probably is a useful way to recover. But if you're well-trained doing the same thing

00:39:17.940 week after week, when you have your protein after an exercise, probably doesn't make much difference.

00:39:25.200 It's really the total amount per day. Most extreme bodybuilders will probably take in protein

00:39:32.400 at least four times a day. So if you want one of those to be after exercise, that's great.

00:39:38.380 But if your next meal happens three hours after exercise, that's fine too. So I think the whole

00:39:45.220 after exercise thing has been distorted a little bit, all of the research has been done with

00:39:51.140 untrained people doing exhaustive exercise. So if you're well-trained, the timing's probably not

00:39:57.200 nearly as important. So you mentioned to kickstart protein synthesis with that first meal, you got to

00:40:01.980 have 35 grams of protein. Is there any other research about distribution of protein throughout

00:40:06.440 the day? So beyond that first meal, does it matter how you distribute your protein?

00:40:10.020 It doesn't really seem to. There's pretty good data that having a larger meal later in the day

00:40:17.820 is important. So like a dinner meal that has maybe 50, 60 grams of protein. And there's a little bit of

00:40:25.300 research, Luc van Loon in the Netherlands has shown that for individuals, again, interested in bodybuilding,

00:40:32.420 having a fourth meal before bedtime, sort of shortening that. So typically a lot of people will have,

00:40:39.220 you know, their dinner at seven and then, you know, a breakfast at seven. So they're going 12 hours

00:40:45.420 without protein coming in. So having another protein intake at like 10 before bed is something

00:40:53.400 that bodybuilders will often adopt. So typically we always try and tell people that if you're a normal,

00:41:01.380 healthy adult, try and get two meals at least, your breakfast and dinner, where the protein amount is

00:41:07.400 above 35 grams. If you're trying to gain muscle mass, you should have at least three meals and

00:41:14.320 possibly even four. So meal distribution takes on, again, a little different look depending on what

00:41:21.040 your personal goals are. I know intermittent fasting has become really popular. So people

00:41:25.940 might have a shortened eating window. So it might just be like a few hours. Is it possible to get all

00:41:30.360 your protein requirements in that, like maybe four hours that you have to eat?

00:41:35.760 Yeah. I don't like patterns as short as four hours. We know that the mechanisms for regulating

00:41:43.820 protein synthesis, once you turn them on, they're all active for at least five hours. So I think that

00:41:51.360 the next meal needs to be separated by at least more than five hours. You know, I like the concept of

00:42:00.360 I mean, the idea of time-restricted feeding is to reduce your just total eating. It's a calorie

00:42:08.360 control issue. I don't have a problem with that, but I think that the two meals should probably be at

00:42:16.300 least six hours apart. And again, you know, how do you get in 150 grams of protein, you know, six hours

00:42:23.500 apart. So 150, that means you're getting in 75 per meal. We know that your optimal use of protein for

00:42:32.820 muscle mass probably plateaus at somewhere around 60. So, you know, you talked about excesses. There's

00:42:40.520 probably a limit to how much protein you can use at a single meal. And we think the upper end of that

00:42:46.540 is probably 55 to 60 range. Okay. And so yeah, this would be below, like if you're a, you know, 0.53

00:42:54.100 an adult male or female, like that's not enough protein for like optimal, right? Yeah. So if you're

00:42:59.840 trying to do weight loss, if you're trying to restrict your calories, most of those people will

00:43:05.020 probably be targeting, you know, 100 to 120 grams of protein per day, distributing in that in two meals

00:43:12.340 of 55 grams is probably okay. But if you're trying to be a bodybuilder with 200 grams per day,

00:43:19.340 putting a hundred in each meal is a really bad idea. You need to distribute that across three or four

00:43:25.440 meals to optimize the effect. Speaking of weight management, is there any benefit of protein when

00:43:32.120 it comes to weight management? Yeah, we've done a lot of research on that. And so two ways to think

00:43:37.720 about it. One is we want enough protein to protect muscle. One of the problems of weight loss is what

00:43:45.220 we call yo-yo dieting. People will restrict their calories, lose 20, 30 pounds, and three months later

00:43:52.580 they gain it back. Well, every time you lose body weight quickly, up to half of the weight you're losing

00:44:00.620 is muscle, is lean body mass. Somewhere between 35 and 50% is going to be muscle mass. And so when

00:44:08.020 you lose it quickly and then regain it, yo-yo back up, what you gain back is just the fat and you've

00:44:15.560 lost muscle. So that makes it harder and harder to lose weight over time because you're losing your

00:44:20.960 lean body mass. So the first reason we want to use protein is to try and prevent muscle loss during

00:44:28.100 weight loss. We call it protein sparing. And we've shown that that's very effective. The other aspect is

00:44:35.980 when you're trying to really reduce calories, what should you reduce? And most of the research shows that

00:44:42.040 reducing carbohydrates is an important way to go. So when we add protein, we usually add it as a substitute

00:44:48.760 for carbs. So we'll add whatever, 50 more grams of protein to a diet and replace 50 grams of

00:44:57.380 carbohydrates. So we're going to higher protein, lower carbohydrate diets. When we do that, we know that we

00:45:04.040 reduce hunger, we increase satiety, we stimulate thermogenesis, the amount of heat you burn from meals. So you're

00:45:12.240 just wasting calories. And you also basically are sparing muscle protein loss. You're reducing, you're correcting

00:45:20.080 body composition. So there's a lot of reasons to increase protein for weight loss. We know that it's a highly,

00:45:26.880 probably the most effective way to correct body composition and lose weight.

00:45:32.320 So I've heard about this idea called the protein leverage hypothesis, and I'm intrigued by it. What do

00:45:37.800 you know about that? Can you walk us through that idea? Yeah. So Steve Simpson in Australia is a nutritional

00:45:44.200 anthropologist. He's actually a pretty good friend. He basically looked at the diet of humans,

00:45:52.520 but basically all animal species. And he realized that basically all animals eat toward a protein

00:46:00.320 target. And it's around 16, 17% of calories. And what his concept was, you know, we look back in time

00:46:10.320 and we realized that in the mid 1980s, all of a sudden we see this epidemic increase in obesity in the

00:46:18.180 United States. And we start wondering why. And one of the things that happened at that point is people

00:46:24.860 were so afraid of cholesterol and saturated fat, we developed what was called the food guide pyramid.

00:46:32.740 And the food guide pyramid said, eat a lot less animal products because that's the way you reduce

00:46:38.100 cholesterol and saturated fat and eat a lot more grain products. What that did was dilute out the nutrient

00:46:46.420 density of the diet. People ate 40% more calories from grains. We diluted the protein down and saw the

00:46:54.460 protein leverage hypothesis is, is that for adults to get to the protein target, they had to eat a lot

00:47:01.380 more calories. And that seems to be exactly what people did. They ended up eating 350 to 400 more

00:47:08.020 calories. Our protein intake stayed about the same, but we ate 400 calories more to get to it. And we think,

00:47:15.380 or that the theory is that that's the, was really the origins of obesity epidemic. And so we're now

00:47:22.620 seeing sort of a shift back to people are much more protein conscious. People are trying to reduce

00:47:27.820 the carbohydrate and we're seeing some people at least having much more success in controlling a body

00:47:34.060 weight. Yeah, it's really interesting and it makes sense. And I can see it with snack foods, right? A lot of

00:47:39.580 the snacks, they're high carb, low protein. So people's bodies are trying to hit their daily protein 0.66

00:47:45.440 target, you know, that what the body wants, but they just keep eating and eating in order to reach

00:47:50.540 it. And they eat through a lot more calories to get to the protein their body wants. Yeah. I mean,

00:47:56.700 the, the food industry has done a great job of developing foods that are very savory. The body sort of

00:48:04.580 recognizes them as that protein kind of taste and they're very addictive. And so to your point,

00:48:12.640 we're seeing a lot more snack foods, a lot more high carbohydrate grain based products in the diet,

00:48:20.520 and people are getting too many calories. Most of the data suggests that obesity is really associated

00:48:26.960 with snacking more than it is with meals. And, you know, I think that's true. I think portion size is

00:48:34.020 part of the issue, but I think the calories we consume outside of mealtime are a huge part of the

00:48:40.800 issue. And, you know, way to counter that, just be more conscious about the protein you consume,

00:48:45.740 be more deliberate about it. When we teach it for weight loss, we always teach people that

00:48:51.260 anytime you eat, you have to focus it on protein. You have to make a protein decision first. And so

00:48:58.300 you should never be eating anything that isn't focused on protein. And, you know, that it may be

00:49:05.380 that you're making a choice of eating some almonds for a snack or cheese or something, but you should

00:49:10.760 always be protein conscious. And likewise, when you're starting a meal, we teach people that the

00:49:17.100 first thing you eat at any meal needs to be the protein part. Your first bite needs to be a protein

00:49:22.280 bite. So when they bring out the bread or the chips or while you're waiting, you can't eat that

00:49:27.460 until the protein arrives because your body doesn't recognize carbs really for satiety very well.

00:49:33.760 The example I liked is, okay, we all go out for dinner and at the end of the dinner, and you're

00:49:39.160 basically full. If they bring out another steak, it's totally revolting. You're not going to eat it.

00:49:44.420 But if they bring out chocolate cake, you're perfectly happy to eat it. We just simply don't

00:49:49.240 register carbohydrates in the same way. Well, Donald, this has been a great conversation.

00:49:54.160 Where can people go to learn more about your work? So, you know, I'm on what used to be called

00:49:59.740 Twitter with at Don Lehman. So, you know, I try and provide some science there. I have a website

00:50:06.540 called MetabolicTransformation.com. And my colleague, Gabrielle Lyon and I have a book coming

00:50:14.820 out called Forever Strong that will come out October 17th, I believe, coming up. So new book,

00:50:21.920 Forever Strong, I think will be a great piece of information for the general public.

00:50:26.360 Fantastic. Well, Donald Lehman, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:50:29.020 My pleasure. Thanks, Brad.

00:50:30.080 My guest today was Dr. Don Lehman. You can find more information about his work at his

00:50:34.640 website, MetabolicTransformation.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash protein,

00:50:40.160 where you find links to resources, where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:49.920 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website

00:50:54.120 at artofmanliness.com, where you find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that

00:50:58.480 we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of. And if you haven't done

00:51:01.840 so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple podcast or

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00:51:09.400 the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always,

00:51:13.240 thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay,

00:51:16.320 reminding you to not listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:51:28.480 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - October 23, 2023

Protein — Everything You Need to Know

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