The Art of Manliness - Rewild Your Life

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast now if you have one

00:00:11.300 take a look at your pet cat or dog these animals descended from wild cats and wolves but today

00:00:15.980 they live pretty sedate lives they're walking around your house and yard waiting for you to

00:00:19.820 deliver some kibbles to their bowl my guest today says that modern humans are in a similar way

00:00:23.880 domesticated versions of our former wilder ancestors and that living a flourishing life

00:00:28.340 requires reconnecting with the primal energy within that now lies dormant his name is mike mortali

00:00:32.900 he's the founder of the krupalos school of mindful outdoor leadership and the author of rewilding

00:00:37.360 meditations practices and skills for awakening in nature mike at first shares how he came to combine

00:00:42.120 his passion for yoga and mindfulness with his love the outdoors and bushcraft skills to create his

00:00:46.560 unique philosophy of rewilding we then dig into what rewilding means why it's vital to body mind

00:00:51.480 and spirit to throw off the malaise of modern domestication and restore your sensory connection

00:00:55.420 from there we turn to the practice that can help you do that from walking barefoot in the woods to

00:00:59.540 staring into a campfire to meditate we also talk about how practicing hands-on ancestral skills like

00:01:04.020 making fire with a bow drill building a wilderness shelter and tracking animals can heighten your

00:01:07.980 confidence and awareness and we enter conversation with small things that everyone even if you live in

00:01:12.000 the suburbs or city can start doing today to begin rewilding your life after the show's over check out

00:01:16.460 our show notes at aom.is slash rewilding all right mike mortali welcome to the show

00:01:33.400 thanks brett great to be here so you got a book called rewilding meditations practices and skills

00:01:40.220 for awakening in nature before we get to the book let's talk about your background because it'll explain

00:01:44.980 a lot about what the book's about it's interesting you have combined yoga something you've done

00:01:50.700 meditation mindfulness yoga with like just being outdoors and also teaching ancestral skills so like

00:01:58.960 how to start fire with just a rubbing wood together how did that happen how did you combine

00:02:04.240 yoga and survival skills that's something you don't see okay right yeah well um i guess i was kind

00:02:13.200 of a free range kid growing up you know as they would say today so when i was little kind of fortunate

00:02:20.100 in some ways i had access to woods and unsupervised time so i probably you might have found me out there

00:02:28.880 with matches and a bow and arrow and climbing trees and doing old school stuff out in the woods as a kid

00:02:37.600 and i had a lot of fun doing it and i bonded with the land you know i just would go out there and sit

00:02:44.080 by the stream or climb trees and you know as i as life went on and challenging things happened here and

00:02:52.360 there in life the natural world the woods the fields of connecticut where i grew up where i went for

00:02:59.080 recovery it's kind of where i went to to heal and those times of being out there sitting by a fire

00:03:08.040 listening to the wind in the trees it those moments were my first experiences of spirituality

00:03:14.880 so as i got into my later years of high school and into early college i started to think a lot about

00:03:22.380 what are we how did we get here and i started to learn a little bit about meditation and different

00:03:29.420 religions i decided to major in religion as an undergrad and that's where i found yoga and

00:03:37.600 i basically just kept going back and forth bouncing between the forest and the the texts of the great

00:03:46.340 wisdom traditions of the world and i always felt that there was a vital bridge that connected these

00:03:53.420 worlds and i spent my 20s and 30s trying to figure out what that bridge was and how to make sense of

00:04:03.180 it all it didn't feel like a clear career path was a it was it kind of felt like a bit of a hero's

00:04:10.620 journey not that i'm a hero but kind of uh like i had to step off the well-beaten path to just kind

00:04:18.240 of get out there and follow my heart so i became a yoga teacher and really fell in love with the

00:04:25.060 breathing practices of yoga but realized that yoga is a wisdom tradition that's based in this idea of

00:04:32.060 everything is connected everything is united yoga means union and of course the place to realize that

00:04:38.960 everything is connected in one is in the forests or out in wild places that's where you can actually

00:04:46.940 feel that and experience that in an embodied way it's very obvious when we're out in nature that

00:04:54.040 everything's connected it becomes less obvious when if we find ourselves in indoor really built up

00:05:01.000 human environments it's more about disconnection so i always thought that there was uh there was this

00:05:09.020 this deep connection and so the funny part about it was that when i got into the industry you could say

00:05:16.540 of yoga and mindfulness working at kripalu center for yoga and health here in the berkshires i i realized

00:05:22.980 that you know 99.9 of every yoga class or meditation class or training is offered in indoor environment

00:05:30.260 so it was interesting how this tradition that had come from the wild had become pretty unwild

00:05:37.620 so with the the land here in the berkshires where i live and where kripalu is being just so beautiful

00:05:45.900 it seemed like an open invitation to break down some of those walls that separate you know modern human

00:05:53.680 beings from their their connection with the more than human world and mindfulness always seemed like

00:06:01.740 a great way to do that because mindfulness is really present moment awareness it's paying attention

00:06:08.900 it's being with your experience in the moment and when we're outside there's so much to be present with

00:06:16.360 that's really interesting and fascinating and nourishing and wise and it seems like in the time we're living in

00:06:24.140 today there's a tremendous need for the wisdom of nature to become infused again into our experience as human

00:06:31.540 beings because the more disconnected i think we get from ourselves in relationship to the earth the more lost

00:06:38.240 we feel and become as a species so that's a big part of what rewilding is about to me all right so okay

00:06:44.800 you you said this idea of getting back into nature and helping people realize how connected they are

00:06:51.740 to everything to each other and to the world around them is a big part of what you're trying to do with

00:06:56.900 rewilding but like dig deeper like what i want to dig deeper into this idea of what it means to rewild

00:07:01.360 like what what else does it mean and like why do you think it's important for people to do that yeah

00:07:09.500 well if i could sum it up as succinctly as possible for me what it's about is in one sense as human

00:07:19.440 beings we're very much animals and that's not to say that we don't have like a spiritual or a

00:07:26.040 etheric nature i think we do but as animals who evolved as part of the living earth i think that

00:07:36.980 rewilding is acknowledging the fact that we as modern people through a process of a long process

00:07:45.660 of domestication have become severed from the source of ourselves our animal selves which is

00:07:53.900 the natural world so it's the idea that all of our senses are faculties our sense of smell our feet

00:08:02.720 our sense of taste um all of our senses our intuition it evolved in relationship with water and trees and

00:08:12.460 mud and sand and the sky right our sense of hearing all of these senses were essential for us

00:08:20.940 and when we were hunter gatherers or even when we were more agricultural as people we used our senses

00:08:31.260 more we used our physical bodies more and we were forced in a way to have to rely more on the natural

00:08:40.920 cycles of nature fast forward to today most of us spend 11 or more hours a day staring at a led lit

00:08:50.540 screen most of us spend more than 90 of our lives in man-made buildings breathing recycled stale air

00:09:00.620 most children today spend less time outside than prison inmates less than an hour outside this is a

00:09:07.180 dramatic departure from the conditions we evolved in so you could think about rewilding as a practice of

00:09:15.340 going feral so this is the idea that we've basically become domesticated if you think about a domesticated dog

00:09:23.880 or cat this is a creature that is totally dependent on their master they do not know how to hunt and gather

00:09:31.480 anymore they eat food that's been processed and canned they reproduce in captivity they bear their young in

00:09:37.960 captivity they spend most of their time inside they are totally dependent and that's really is the case

00:09:44.880 for most humans today we were a domesticated version of our once wild ancestors who were responsible and

00:09:53.020 capable of building their own homes growing their own food hunting their own food taking care of their own

00:09:58.780 medicine knowing what plants are healing and how to heal and how to stay in good health by living in harmony

00:10:05.840 with natural world so not to say that there aren't all these tremendous benefits of modern life

00:10:11.920 not saying that at all but to me rewilding is about acknowledging that the bill of goods we've been sold with

00:10:19.200 modern life is not all good you know we've lost a lot it's an acknowledgement that we are like if you were to

00:10:27.640 take a you know a lioness from the savannahs of africa who spends her days in her pride her community

00:10:36.600 hunting feasting providing very much in and of the land very alive a life full of meaning and purpose

00:10:46.180 and you were to take that lioness and you were to put her into a cinder block square space

00:10:52.360 and give her kibbles and bits and hook up netflix in there so she can watch movies about the savannah

00:11:00.840 or zoom with her pride she probably wouldn't be a fulfilled lioness something really important would

00:11:07.460 be missing and i think that deep unnamed sadness as dr robin walt kimmerer sometimes has referred to it

00:11:14.520 is a big part of what i sometimes call like domestication illness this feeling like there's something really

00:11:20.400 important missing and i think a big part of that is our connection with our natural habitat which is

00:11:26.880 being outdoors no yeah this domestication i think we've all read about the the ill effects of modern

00:11:32.960 life right like you said there's a lot of benefits like you and i were talking via the internet right

00:11:37.260 now able to do this remote but there's like with prosperity there's comes there's diseases of

00:11:41.940 prosperity so physically we all know about obesity insulin resistance diabetes cancer rate but then there's

00:11:49.280 also it seems like you're focused with rewilding there's that physical part but since you're coming

00:11:54.120 from a place of mindfulness and yoga you're focusing on how being out in nature can restore that spiritual

00:12:03.000 or mental part of our lives yeah that's right you know there's this one aspect of domestication

00:12:09.700 illness referred to as sensory anesthesia so it's kind of a loss of the senses and you know being out

00:12:15.900 out on the land whether you're you know out in the snow or whatever the weather is you know our senses

00:12:22.180 get very stimulated a lot of people are really into like cold immersion these days getting into a cold

00:12:26.780 stream and the benefits of that the wim hof method things like that walking barefoot what's called

00:12:32.460 earthing or grounding you know just gathering pine needles and breaking them up and smelling the

00:12:37.840 essential oils that are released and awakening our sense of smell all these things can be deepened

00:12:43.300 through the practice of mindfulness so if before we go into the forest to walk barefoot and ground

00:12:50.020 we take a few slow deep breaths and transition out of the fight or flight response and into the

00:12:57.740 rest and digest response the parasympathetic nervous system we're going to be able to experience

00:13:03.880 walking barefoot with a greater sense of presence with a greater sense of connection so the mind will be

00:13:10.200 able to rest more into the experience so i try to help people to use their breath to help them come

00:13:19.500 into the moment and elevate their sense of awareness before they go into these rewilding practices whether

00:13:26.000 it's walking barefoot whether it's archery whether it's climbing a tree or birthing fire with a bow drill

00:13:34.860 all of these different practices are doorways of connection through these practices we approach

00:13:41.420 them with with awareness with gratitude with reverence they can allow us to access deeper and

00:13:49.580 deeper states of connection that are also like really fun and fulfilling as well no it seems like

00:13:55.640 you're you're carrying on a tradition that's been in america for a while you go back to the

00:14:00.760 transcendentalist henry david thoreau technically he this guy wasn't a transcendentist like walt whitman

00:14:05.980 they were all about this whole idea of rewilding but being very mindful and about the whole thing so

00:14:13.780 you know thoreau his experience the way he describes observing nature was almost meditative he was being

00:14:20.160 both a scientist but also like he called himself a yogi and he was trying to try to find something

00:14:25.660 deeper when he's looking at i don't know a bug over over by walden pond yeah absolutely there's a long

00:14:34.200 tradition of this you know it's interesting because thoreau probably was one of the first yogis in the

00:14:38.600 united states i mean there weren't many people reading the bhagavad gita in massachusetts in the

00:14:44.140 mid-1800s yeah it's it's it's a it is a tradition and i think that it's becoming more this way of being

00:14:53.640 in relationship to the land through mindfulness but also through hands-on connection i think a big

00:15:00.420 and very important aspect of this whole work for me is that coming in one sense from the mindfulness

00:15:07.220 world there's this sense of deep deep gentility i'm walking outside being very mindful don't want to

00:15:14.100 step on any bugs and then there's then there's the part of me that is very much coming from the

00:15:19.600 ancestral skills perspective this this sense that we actually are part of the natural world and it's

00:15:27.400 not really possible to not step on a bug right like we are also going to become part of the earth

00:15:33.220 at one point ourselves and how can we mindfully engage in a hands-on way with the land and so this

00:15:40.500 is why it's so important for me to bring in these hands-on skills because i think many many people

00:15:47.320 in the last few decades have been taught that the only impact human beings can have on nature is negative

00:15:52.820 it's like we're a cancer on the earth and so you know when they go into nature it's like stay on the

00:15:58.300 trail don't touch anything and certainly there's high traffic places where we want to definitely be very

00:16:05.600 mindful of leave no trace but i think there's this unintended consequence to that approach as well

00:16:10.760 which is this idea that like we don't belong out there that the only way we can help the planet is by

00:16:17.000 not touching it and i actually don't think that that's necessarily true before europeans came to

00:16:25.460 north america there were 60 million people living on this continent and they found a way to live

00:16:32.040 in relative harmony maintaining biodiversity and clean air and clean water how did they do it i think

00:16:39.840 that's what we're called to remember in our time is how can we as human beings live here in a way

00:16:48.420 that's generative that's restorative how can we live in partnership with the forces of nature not in

00:16:57.420 opposition and so practices like making a bow drill kit of learning how to use a saw and a hatchet and

00:17:06.540 a knife mindfully safely carving a tool getting to know the trees engaging in this process of creating

00:17:14.940 heat and friction and breathing life into a fire this provides people with an opportunity to i think

00:17:21.560 number one realize that there are ways to be in relationship with the trees the elements that are

00:17:31.080 sacred and how can we hold the element of fire water in ways that are really sustaining and to build

00:17:41.220 confidence in a sense that as we get to know one plant one tree one food source as we begin to engage

00:17:49.220 these ancestral skills with awareness we begin to really bond with and connect with a place

00:17:54.260 and i think the more we're bonded with and connected to a place it's far more likely that we're going to

00:18:01.220 be able to advocate for such places if you really know the trees and you know what invasive insects or

00:18:09.420 species are threatening certain trees then you actually get to speak for the trees in your area in a way

00:18:17.240 that somebody who wasn't going that deep into connection might have no idea they might never

00:18:21.880 notice the woolly adelgid that is suddenly on the hemlock in their little patch of forest whereas

00:18:28.460 someone who's a mindful forager would pick up on really really easily and you've seen with the people

00:18:34.820 that you've worked with that you know cultivating this connection doing these practices just getting

00:18:39.720 out into nature in general really has a restorative almost a healing effect on people you know why do you

00:18:45.660 think i mean have you been able to put your finger on what's going on there like what is the operative

00:18:50.580 pathway in this process one way i try to make sense of it is you know this idea that the things that we

00:18:57.080 see outside the things we experience in the natural world they hold these timeless truths that i think we

00:19:05.980 all really need access to because life is hard and it can be painful but when we spend time outside

00:19:13.200 and we allow ourselves to have space and time to get quiet and to reflect and to just observe

00:19:18.480 we see that the things that we struggle with are very present all around us on the forest you can see

00:19:25.380 you can see death you're confronted with it you can see renewal it's right there you know when you sit

00:19:33.040 by a stream and it's flowing and it's raging in some areas and then there are calm pools and others

00:19:40.980 and then those calm pools rage again and then they find other calm pools it's analogous to life

00:19:47.020 and this is nature therapy this kind of connection this kind of counseling this kind of teaching

00:19:54.280 that i think modern people any people truly and deeply need well let's dig deep in some of the

00:20:01.580 practices that you you guide people in and you mentioned one earlier this idea of walking around

00:20:08.200 barefoot sometimes it's called grounding and you make the note in the book like for a lot of people

00:20:13.900 that you guide through this practice just taking your shoes off and walking on the bare on the ground

00:20:19.620 dirt pine needles etc like for a lot of these people it's the first time they've done it in decades

00:20:25.600 so like what goes on like what's the experience like for people who've like man this is the first

00:20:29.920 time i've done this since i was a kid and and what are the benefits what do you think that come from

00:20:34.200 walking around barefoot outside yeah so the way the way i like to think about this is well first

00:20:41.500 i'll say like so years back i remember we had a neighbor they had their grandkid over who was i don't

00:20:46.980 know this baby was maybe 10 months old or a year old at the most and the baby had like new balance

00:20:54.000 sneakers on and i just remember thinking how strange that you would put like sneakers on a baby

00:20:59.260 that can't even walk yet but i think that's very common for many many people especially a lot of

00:21:04.140 kids today and i i see this with kids that i know friends of my kids who um you know they'll come over

00:21:10.840 and you know maybe they're afraid to walk on the grass barefoot maybe their parents are worried they're

00:21:14.860 going to step on something and cut their foot but think about this how i think about this way imagine

00:21:19.640 that you got a puppy and uh as soon as the puppy came in your house you put slippers on its paws

00:21:27.600 and the puppy never went outside without wearing its slippers that would be so strange wouldn't it

00:21:32.400 and imagine what it would feel like for that puppy or that dog to in midlife take the slippers off and

00:21:38.860 and allow its paws to feel the ground and that's how it is for us like our feet are our paws it would

00:21:44.540 be like if we wore gloves all the time could you imagine if you wore gloves all the time and your hands

00:21:50.440 never touched anything what it would feel like to take the gloves off and feel the surface area of

00:21:57.440 a tree or sand at the beach this is what we're talking about for people today it's really strange

00:22:05.040 that we wear shoes all the time it's really strange and they're comfortable and they protect our feet

00:22:11.460 and there's times when we really obviously really need to wear them you know you don't want to

00:22:14.740 be on a construction crew or something and not be wearing steel toe boots right but to have them on

00:22:20.980 all the time creates a disconnect between our bodies and the land and you know even back before

00:22:29.240 rubber and you know modern rubbers and synthetics most shoes were made of leather and so could still

00:22:35.700 conduct an exchange of electrons between our bodies and the earth whereas these rubber sold shoes really

00:22:41.980 ground us so that we're there is no transfer of free electrons between our body and the earth so we are

00:22:48.800 literally from an electrical level disconnected so not only is there a sensory sense of connection

00:22:55.680 but there's also an actual electrical exchange that happens when we're bare feet are on the ground and it

00:23:01.920 can be just very exquisite as anybody knows just going to the beach how good does it feel to put your feet

00:23:07.380 in the sand i mean it feels so good and those are the kind i mean it's very sensual our feet have a lot

00:23:14.860 nerve endings so there is a lot of rich sensory experience to be had with our feet on the ground

00:23:21.900 you know and being a big tolkien fan you know hobbits always were barefoot right and tolkien writes about

00:23:27.980 how i know this is fantasy but based in reality how quiet hobbits could walk in the forest and you

00:23:35.020 know of course we know most earth-based indigenous cultures generally barefoot most of the time or wearing

00:23:40.940 leather moccasins or some kind of covering that's very very simple but allows us to move very quietly

00:23:46.500 and of course the more quietly we're able to move the less of a disturbance we create on the land

00:23:52.940 and the more part of the landscape we feel the more wildlife we see the more we can move in earth time

00:23:59.820 sort of that slow pace of nature which is uh also something that many people haven't experienced

00:24:08.100 so how do you recommend people who haven't walked outside barefoot for since they were a kid

00:24:14.000 i imagine you have to kind of on-ramp to this you don't want to just like walk five miles

00:24:18.360 right for the first time but is there like a process that you would recommend

00:24:21.760 yeah sure so you know main thing you're looking for is a nice soft ground so i will you know often say

00:24:29.700 find a trail that is well established and maybe there's a patch of trail where you have a lot of pine

00:24:37.520 trees where the ground is might have a carpet of pine needles can be very soft so you might start

00:24:44.520 there again you're gonna you know look for a place where the ground is soft and easy walking and you

00:24:51.640 know you might just go with flip-flops this is a great way to do it just wear flip-flops and when

00:24:56.500 you get to the trailhead kick them off and pick them up just take take 20 steps nice and slow and just

00:25:03.460 allow your feet to feel the ground and if you get to a patch where the ground's a little harder you

00:25:07.640 can pop your flip-flops back on you know another thing to do is if you can go to a beach whether

00:25:14.140 it's a lake or the ocean you can walk very easily on the sand and the idea is to just kind of bring

00:25:20.660 your mindfulness to it another thing you can do is even if you're wearing hiking shoes and you hike

00:25:26.800 into a place where there's a stream or a water source and then when you get to that place take

00:25:31.800 your shoes off and let your feet go into the water and put your feet on the rocks and let that be a

00:25:37.960 meditation or a mindfulness practice five or ten minutes just letting your feet be bathed in the

00:25:43.540 water can be really really like a beautiful enjoyable experience cooling and connecting we're

00:25:52.520 gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:25:56.800 and now back to the show something you do throughout the book is you walk people through

00:26:01.660 i mean so any of these practices we're talking about they can be turned into a meditative practice

00:26:04.840 but sometimes you take people out to the to the woods to the wild just to meditate so just to sit

00:26:10.420 and meditate like you would do a meditation session indoors on your rubber mat and you're with

00:26:16.140 the wooden floor but how do i mean is there something does the meditation change when you're outdoors

00:26:21.460 because you're surrounded by so many like so much sensory input because like when you're inside

00:26:27.580 you know there's basically it's going to be very plain and sterile almost so you can just focus on

00:26:31.920 the breath when you're outside does the meditation change yeah great question well you know the one of

00:26:39.460 the reasons why i love to introduce folks to this idea of nature meditation is that it's really different

00:26:45.260 i think in a lot of ways from formal meditation that people might be familiar with you know the idea

00:26:52.220 being really willfully holding our attention let's say on the breath like we might do in a seated practice

00:26:58.560 you know which for many folks who maybe have been focusing all day trying to focus on tasks and then

00:27:05.160 maybe going to a meditation course at the end of the day and then sitting there and then again like trying

00:27:10.080 to hold their minds still can be i think in some sometimes it can be demoralizing or people can feel

00:27:17.000 like i'm not doing it right what's wonderful about nature meditation is that the idea is not to hold

00:27:22.740 your attention on anything i try to guide folks into what is called fascination attention and this comes

00:27:29.680 from the whole theory called attention restoration theory which is this idea that when we try to hold our

00:27:37.040 focus for prolonged periods of time our brain gets really tired and our productivity can diminish and we

00:27:43.920 might feel like we can't get our work done the antidote to that is what's called fascination attention

00:27:48.960 which is where you look out the window and you allow yourself to notice movement let's say so this is the

00:27:56.800 kind of practice i like to weave into nature meditation so we'll go outside and maybe there's a stream so i'll say

00:28:03.920 to folks hey let's have a seat by the stream and for the next 10 minutes or so just allow your awareness

00:28:10.920 your your eyes your sense of hearing and sight to follow whatever is moving and fascinating happening

00:28:18.080 with the water and in that situation it is much easier to kind of be with the water because you know the

00:28:28.360 water is moving it's changing it's making sounds it's alive it's active and and our awareness can

00:28:36.480 sort of become fascinated by the movement it's mesmerizing another example would be fire meditation

00:28:42.660 where we just kind of rest our gaze in the fire and so in this way it's like watching tv right but it's

00:28:50.200 but it's a natural organic process so we're kind of going into a trance the movement puts us into a

00:28:57.140 trance and a trance is sort of a high band alpha brainwave state which is moving us out of a beta

00:29:04.180 brainwave state where we're very conversational we're logical we're linear and moving us into this

00:29:10.500 meditative liminal state where we're just kind of in the moment flowing with what's happening so

00:29:19.300 what's amazing is that this really is i think our natural state of being as hunter gatherers we're

00:29:28.500 sort of always in that state moving across the land noticing movement reading our environment

00:29:37.080 and those kind of like really hard focus type of times are less common because it's more important

00:29:44.660 to really be tuned into everything that's going on so these kind of practices of listening to and

00:29:51.660 watching the trees as they flow in the wind the water the fire or a bumblebee pollinating a flower

00:30:00.240 you know we can be drawn into these things and it feels it can feel effortless in a way that

00:30:07.420 is really enjoyable and awe-inspiring i think as well at times yeah it's funny you mentioned the water and

00:30:13.720 the fire meditations i mean i think people just if when you're outdoors you have a tendency to

00:30:18.060 naturally be drawn to that my wife and i went backpacking with a friend of ours in colorado and

00:30:23.680 there's this river that we just stopped by and we just without anyone saying anything like hey we're

00:30:28.820 gonna stop here and just sit like everyone just sat and we just listened to this river rush down the

00:30:35.180 mountain then that night like firemen i love like there's just something about a fire you it does put you

00:30:40.800 a trance like state and it's funny you'll no one has to say anything everyone just kind of everyone

00:30:46.940 didn't know just to realize like yeah we're just gonna stare at this fire for a little bit don't no

00:30:50.500 one say anything it's not deliberate but that's kind of like how we naturally want to go and i think

00:30:56.000 another practice you could do outdoors it's funny so i think you hear all these like mindfulness apps

00:31:00.680 they use the analogy of like your your thoughts should be like clouds in the sky just like don't

00:31:05.940 focus on them just let them pass like clouds in the sky well you can go outside and actually look

00:31:11.520 at actual clouds and uh just look at the clouds and not think about your thoughts and watch those

00:31:16.240 actual clouds pass in the sky yeah so i love that analogy and i think you know i just it makes me

00:31:22.180 remember times as a kid where you know after school i would just lay down outside and just do just that

00:31:28.000 and um it's that simple right yeah and so i think it's a lot easier too i mean i've i've done

00:31:33.840 like those meditations like think of your thoughts as clouds in the sky but it's very

00:31:37.280 it's cognitively taxing because you feel like it's like you're doing this abstraction right you

00:31:41.380 feel like we have to imagine clouds and like my thoughts are clouds and like and you're so focused

00:31:46.660 it's it's actually like this is not enjoyable but when you go outside and stare at a cloud like you're

00:31:51.620 not even you're just looking at the like the the the meditation is externalized from you

00:31:56.200 right so it makes it easier in a way i agree i agree yeah it's very effortless yeah

00:32:03.520 okay so there's some just simple when you're outside some meditative practice you can do you

00:32:07.420 can even make walking a meditative practice when you're if you're barefoot just like focus on what

00:32:12.140 it feels like our goal is to get that fascination focus like open focus don't focus on one thing

00:32:18.100 which kind of be open to anything to catch your attention you also talk about getting outside so

00:32:24.080 people can develop what's called topophilia or a love of place what sorts of things do you

00:32:30.000 encourage people to to do to develop that love of place you know there's there's so many things that

00:32:36.220 that one can do to to deepen your connection with a place you know so one of the practices that's great

00:32:43.320 for that is the sit spot practice which is basically for many folks who like have a morning ritual like

00:32:49.500 making your coffee or your tea you can make your beverage sit on your porch sit by your window

00:32:56.060 and allow yourself to have 15 or 30 minutes to just watch whatever's going on out there

00:33:03.580 for that period of time so just putting your attention on the land and what's great about that is

00:33:10.180 you'll get to know the trees the plants the animals the weather movement of the air it is a practice

00:33:22.180 that helps to deepen intimacy with a particular place so i highly recommend this sit spot it's a

00:33:28.580 great practice other things that one can do are to plant a garden something about eating you know i think

00:33:36.980 eating is one of the most powerful sacraments right it's it's like the earth goes into our bodies

00:33:42.500 and it becomes us and there's an exchange so you know whether it's starting a garden and planting seeds

00:33:51.340 and eating the food or whether it's hunting or gathering these are practices that mindfully

00:33:59.580 approached can help us to deepen our sense of connection to place in ways that are incredibly incredibly

00:34:09.340 life-changing and powerful so just getting to know what is edible around me you know what can i eat

00:34:15.820 what are the native plants oh are there any invasive plants here that whole process can be very powerful

00:34:22.800 for really loving loving place yeah there's this old bill mckibben quote that i often read and i'll just

00:34:32.560 paraphrase it for our conversation but you know he says uh the mountain you says you live in a particular

00:34:39.060 place even if it's just a square mile or two it took me many years to learn its secrets here there are

00:34:46.280 blueberries here there are bigger blueberries i pass a hundred different plants along the trail i know

00:34:52.860 maybe 20 of them one could spend a lifetime getting to know a small range of mountains once upon a time

00:35:00.720 people did you know and when i read that like one could spend a lifetime getting to know a small range

00:35:06.320 of mountains and once upon a time people did it just really hit me you know as i was writing rewilding

00:35:12.540 i set up my desk by my window in my house and i could look out my little window and we have a small

00:35:19.160 mountain right behind our house and i could kind of look out on the mountain and as i was writing you

00:35:24.900 know i would get fatigued i would look up and i would see the wind watch the seasons watch my children

00:35:29.880 in the backyard watch the birds come through during the spring migrations watch the the mallard the

00:35:37.640 pair of mallards that would come into our little brook in our backyard every spring the great blue

00:35:42.700 heron that would feed in the yard in the summer the squirrels gathering nuts in the fall looking out

00:35:49.540 noticing the tracks in the snow of the bobcat the winter it doesn't take a lot i think it just takes

00:35:56.100 like a willingness and a desire to be in relationship and whether you live in a city or

00:36:02.900 suburb there's ways to connect with the earth anywhere you are you know you can look up at the sky

00:36:12.480 and the clouds as you were just talking about brett or just feeling the movement of the air

00:36:17.840 there's so many different ways to deepen that love place and the last thing i'll say on the subject is

00:36:24.220 i think another really big and important one for me has been to learn about the history of the place

00:36:30.600 and in particular the indigenous history who are the people that are indigenous to the place where i live

00:36:38.420 where are they now maybe those are my ancestors depending on where you might live or your ancestors

00:36:45.400 learning about those things can be very enriching to help deepen a sense of connection with a particular

00:36:52.720 place so let's shift over to some of these ancestral skills like survival skills so one thing you take

00:36:59.580 people through is building a fire and it's not with matches they are using materials they find

00:37:05.400 outside so it's a bow drill or you know a plow how can this be turned into a meditative practice

00:37:14.800 well i think inherently it is a meditative practice so the the bow drill for instance is a skill set that

00:37:23.520 is kind of complex and daunting it's a difficult skill to master because it involves knowing the right

00:37:34.260 kind of wood to use making sure it's well seasoned making sure that the proportion of all the different

00:37:41.100 components of the kit are carved and fashioned properly there's rope or cordage involved there's

00:37:49.460 knot tying there's a particular physical form to bringing all the pieces together and how to hold them

00:37:57.260 and a physical process of spinning the spindle back and forth with the bow so one of the things i love

00:38:05.860 about this practice in particular is that you know so many things in modern life come easy modern life

00:38:11.880 tries to make everything convenient and come quick and i think it's as i've gotten older i value

00:38:19.880 sucking at things you know when i confront a skill set or something that i stink at i'm like good this is

00:38:27.780 good for me it's good to be a beginner it's good when something doesn't come easy because we learn so much

00:38:34.480 from having to be humble and apply ourselves and not give up with attaining something now when you're

00:38:42.400 talking about something as important as fire having the experience of struggling and sucking at bow drill

00:38:50.000 and working at it and working at developing the skills like that moment when you breathe into the palm of

00:38:56.560 your hand and a flame springs out of your tinder bundle and the aroma of the dried cedar dust is like the most

00:39:07.920 beautiful and wholesome incense you've ever smelled and you're sitting there covered in sweat exhausted and

00:39:15.580 you've just brought forth this living element that is one of the most impactful technological leaps in human

00:39:24.920 history you're connected with you're connected with humanity through time like you touch like for me it

00:39:30.020 feels like you touch eternity in that moment an eternal now through this experience and as you do that

00:39:38.640 process of spinning that spindle you can't but help but go into a state of kind of a trance now the way

00:39:45.660 that i learned this skill was from tom brown jr at the tracker school and tom learned it from his teacher

00:39:51.820 stalking wolf who was apache and that lineage with that skill set i'll never forget that what tom and

00:40:00.120 his teachers taught us in my standard course down there was every time you come to one of these practices

00:40:05.120 whether it's making a bow drill or carving your own bow or making an arrow or making pottery you come to it

00:40:15.320 from a place of gratitude and thanksgiving you come to this the materials in your hand you treat it like

00:40:22.480 it's an offering to the sacred gift of life and so i try to come at it from that place well let's talk

00:40:29.820 about shelter building what is it about shelter building like what are you hoping your students

00:40:34.820 get out of the experience of building a shelter out in the wild i think one of the things that like

00:40:40.480 a lot of people love about camping or backpacking is you know that experience when you're you're tired

00:40:48.060 that you've you've hiked for many miles you're cold it's been raining maybe get a little wet and you get

00:40:55.060 that experience of getting your tent up and making a little fire and getting dry putting dry clothes on

00:41:01.760 and sitting down having a cup of noodles or you know having some food and you're there by the fire with a

00:41:09.060 friend and all your major survival needs are met you have shelter you have water fire you've got

00:41:15.900 companionship that is the bare necessities of life and it's one of those things that people myself

00:41:23.920 included i think really love about those kind of experiences is that you feel grateful because

00:41:30.000 everything just got life just got reduced to its bare essentials and when you can feel that sense of

00:41:36.480 oh man i was just so cold and so wet and now i feel warm and dry that's a very wonderful feeling

00:41:44.400 and modern life in a lot of ways removes us from having those enjoyable experiences i think herman

00:41:51.800 melville wrote about this in moby dick a little bit he talked about how you know the wealthy of his

00:41:56.920 time don't have that exquisite experience of lying in bed and having their face be cold but their body

00:42:03.460 be warm and cozy under the covers but it's just that experience we get when we're camping and so

00:42:08.540 teaching people to build shelter is a part of helping them to have that experience of

00:42:13.760 knowing that they can provide themselves with something as elemental as basic as fundamental as

00:42:21.040 important as shelter and you know one thing that is really cool about the process and a lot of times

00:42:27.900 we'll make a debris shelter which is like a little lean-to with a big pile leaves over it when you

00:42:33.540 make a nice debris shelter there is something about it when you look at it when you're in it when you sit

00:42:39.660 next to it that is very healing psychologically you go out to a place in the forest and there's just

00:42:46.280 trees and in the course of a couple hours you create a place for yourself which is very much of

00:42:53.180 the land but it's not totally because it's a human nest and when you see that human nest and your

00:43:00.140 little firewall in front of it for your fire pit that's going to reflect the heat back toward you there

00:43:06.240 all of a sudden in this wilderness you've created a home and that is a very special feeling and many people

00:43:15.620 don't know how to provide themselves with that sense of safety comfort reassurance in those kind

00:43:23.780 of environments and it can be pretty life-changing so another practice you you lead people on is

00:43:30.420 animal tracking and if someone's a hunter they've done this before but this is a practice you can do

00:43:37.360 even if you don't plan on hunting you just want to follow an animal maybe take a picture not even take

00:43:41.620 you just find where the animal's at how do you bring mindfulness to this this animal tracking

00:43:46.480 yeah so tracking is a deep skill set there's so much to it the way i approach tracking is people are

00:43:54.880 often very interested in seeing wildlife they're curious about what kind of animals are around i think

00:44:01.300 many people are dealing with what dr kimmerer calls species loneliness like this deep sense of

00:44:06.380 disconnection from animals and so i'll often offer tracking as a way to connect you know the thing

00:44:12.760 about tracking is that you know it can be pretty simple it can be pretty complex i'll oftentimes try

00:44:18.280 to help people get into it just simply by pointing out what's called sign tracking which is like how do

00:44:24.260 we read the landscape to get a sense of where animals might be so for instance i might be in a place

00:44:30.780 where there's an apple orchard next to a forest you just might point out like what animals do you

00:44:35.280 think might like to come here and eat these apples people say oh deer right right you know and we as

00:44:40.540 we're walking through the woods i might know that there's a deer run that goes down the hill to where

00:44:45.340 the stream is for the water and i'll say yeah there's water down there what animals do you think might

00:44:49.740 be drawn to the water and why people start talking about oh well yeah they might be to drink and

00:44:54.880 right so then i'll start to point out just animal trails runs through the grass or through the forest

00:45:03.440 and how to look for the disturbances in the leaf litter of just steps footprints moving through

00:45:09.100 so starting at the macro and then very gradually coming into then individual prints and the different

00:45:15.940 substrates and things like that yeah i know from my experience a few times i've been hunting

00:45:21.300 the part that i enjoyed the most was just learning like rec learning how to recognize signs of the

00:45:27.140 wildlife like oh when you see a tree it's like oh that's a deer rub like if i yeah and i was with

00:45:32.240 someone who was showing me it's like if i didn't have someone showing me i would have no clue just

00:45:35.380 like oh that tree just doesn't have any bark or you'd be like oh look at this sort of grass

00:45:39.120 indentation this is where some deer were laying down i would have walked by that before and said

00:45:42.940 that just looks like impressed grass i don't know what happened there or like the deer runs you see

00:45:47.080 kind of spaces in grass that was like the most enjoyable part just like being able to see it's like

00:45:51.880 you're able to see a like a code that was foreign to you but then once you know what to look for

00:45:58.900 like this whole ecosystem opens up to you that was basically a secret before you learned the secrets

00:46:05.260 absolutely i mean you're reading the book of nature and um i mean it it's amazing right to begin to see

00:46:13.100 those things and how many layers of awareness are there it's kind of an endless journey it's so cool

00:46:19.000 well so how can people make this this stuff is rewilding part of their daily lives like you know some

00:46:25.100 people they live in the suburbs they live in a city they can get out to nature maybe once a month

00:46:31.860 but let's say they want to incorporate this in their daily lives what are some small things that

00:46:35.900 people can do to get started with rewilding yeah i mean taking your shoes off at the end of the day

00:46:41.900 and putting your bare feet on even if it's on the concrete getting your bare feet on the ground below you

00:46:47.880 concrete is conductive so feet on the grass go in the backyard take your shoes off

00:46:54.080 do your sit spot take that 10 or 15 minutes a day either in the morning or in the evening

00:46:59.340 and just sit and just watch the sky watch the land allow yourself to slow down enough to just connect

00:47:07.320 with place so those are those are two things you know other things you can do are get a little garden

00:47:13.580 going grow some herbs just putting seeds in the ground and watching them grow and spending a little

00:47:20.520 bit of time every day to check on them and water them you know that's rewilding you know there might

00:47:25.320 be different ancestral skills that you're drawn to you might feel like always wanted to weave a basket

00:47:29.940 or i've always wanted to carve something i would encourage folks to try to just think about those

00:47:38.720 things you've always wanted to do that are outdoor related and just start and even if you're no good

00:47:45.260 at it you have no skill just start somewhere maybe it's archery maybe it's throwing stick maybe it's

00:47:52.980 climbing a tree the thing is is i think with rewilding i really encourage folks to do what uh

00:47:59.140 joseph campbell said like follow your bliss think about those things maybe you did outside as a kid that

00:48:04.860 you really loved to do and and do that maybe you love just sitting by a fire get yourself a little

00:48:12.620 solo stove or a little fire pit and if it's safe to do where you are in your area let that be a

00:48:18.520 practice maybe once or twice a week you just make a fire rather than watching netflix watch the fire

00:48:24.260 well michael this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your

00:48:28.380 work so you can go to um michael mortally.com and learn about rewilding learn about programs i'm

00:48:36.260 offering i've got a blog there get on my newsletter list learn about the school of mindful outdoor

00:48:41.540 leadership at kripalu center where we train people to become mindful outdoor guides you learn about the

00:48:47.240 rewilding programs that i offer as well so pretty easy to find i'm also on instagram michael mortally

00:48:52.920 and you can follow me there fantastic well michael mortally thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:48:56.840 thanks so much brad i'm really happy to uh be on the podcast with you thank you my guest here is

00:49:03.040 michael mortally he's the author of the book rewilding it's available on amazon.com and bookstores

00:49:07.140 everywhere you can find out more information about his work at his website michael mortally.com also

00:49:11.460 check out our show notes at aom.is slash rewilding we can find links to resources we can delve deeper

00:49:15.680 into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website

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The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025

Rewild Your Life

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