The Art of Manliness - Run Like a Pro (Even If You're Slow)

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.960 Running is a gloriously democratic and accessible sport.

00:00:14.080 All you need is a pair of shoes and the will to start moving your legs.

00:00:16.720 It's so seemingly simple that you may never think to figure out how you might get better at it.

00:00:20.760 You just follow what your peers may be doing, who may not know anything more than you do,

00:00:24.200 or pick up tips that percolate through social media, which may not be accurate,

00:00:27.400 or 100% wing it, just vaguely trying to get a little faster each time you run.

00:00:32.080 My guest says that rather than taking a willy-nilly approach to your recreational running,

00:00:35.900 you can greatly improve your performance by learning from the professionals who actually run for a living.

00:00:40.720 His name is Matt Fitzgerald, and he's a sports writer, a running coach, and the co-author of

00:00:44.320 Run Like a Pro, Even If You're Slow, Elite Tools and Tips for Runners at Every Level.

00:00:49.060 Today on the show, Matt translates the best practices of elite runners to tactics the amateur can incorporate into their training,

00:00:54.400 beginning with why you need to follow a well-programmed running plan, how to find the sweet spot for your running volume,

00:00:59.180 including why you should actually concentrate more on the amount of time you run rather than the miles,

00:01:03.440 and the number of hours Matt recommends trying to work up to running each week if you'd like to really see what you can do as a runner.

00:01:08.600 We then discuss the ratio of low-intensity to high-intensity workouts you should be doing,

00:01:12.300 the surprisingly small emphasis pros put on running form,

00:01:14.820 what the pros know about what works best for recovery, and the edge you can get through cross-training.

00:01:19.000 We end our conversation with a difference in mindset that marks elite runners,

00:01:21.620 including how they're probably better quitters than you are.

00:01:24.340 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash run.

00:01:41.000 Matt Fitzgerald, welcome back to the show.

00:01:43.380 Great to be back.

00:01:44.880 So you have been a runner pretty much all your life.

00:01:48.080 You've also written about running extensively as a journalist.

00:01:50.720 You've written several books about running.

00:01:52.580 You've become a coach.

00:01:54.160 You got certified nutrition to help runners.

00:01:56.800 So basically, you know a lot about running.

00:01:59.180 You've made it your life's work in a way.

00:02:02.200 So why did you decide to go live with a bunch of professional runners in 2017?

00:02:07.440 What did you see lacking in your own running performance that you thought you could probably fill in those gaps

00:02:12.620 by hanging out with a bunch of pro runners?

00:02:14.140 You know, the first thing is that I think athletes in pretty much any sport fantasize about going pro at some point,

00:02:22.000 you know, especially if you discover your sport young.

00:02:24.340 You know, I started running when I was 11, and, you know, I wasn't the most gifted runner.

00:02:28.500 So I figured out pretty quickly I wasn't going to the Olympics.

00:02:30.580 But still, I dreamed about it, you know, how cool it would be to have a pro shoe contract

00:02:35.680 and travel around the world racing for a living.

00:02:38.900 Didn't work out that way.

00:02:40.660 But then, you know, so when I got deep into my career as an endurance sports writer and coach,

00:02:46.440 you know, I have an interesting experience where I have sort of like one foot in the recreational world.

00:02:51.380 Like, you know, almost all the athletes I coach and write for are recreational level competitive,

00:02:55.380 but, you know, amateur.

00:02:57.300 And then, you know, I do a lot of my learning from the elites.

00:03:00.780 And I noticed that most of recreational runners kind of have no idea what the elites actually do.

00:03:06.260 And because they don't know, they're not doing it themselves.

00:03:09.160 And I've always been a big believer in kind of what I call a best practices approach to,

00:03:13.820 you know, developing in any sport, including endurance sports.

00:03:17.280 So when I was 45, about to turn 46, I just got this idea into my head to guinea pig myself,

00:03:23.080 to kind of put my money where my mouth was and prove as, you know, this 46-year-old,

00:03:28.560 you know, above average, but still, you know, amateur runner,

00:03:31.740 that by fully immersing myself in these elite best practices,

00:03:35.760 just completely living their entire lifestyle, that I could benefit from it.

00:03:41.280 And just, I wanted to show that, you know, you don't have to be born with elite genetics

00:03:45.520 to benefit from emulating, you know, the top performers.

00:03:49.760 So what happened with your experience?

00:03:50.640 Like, was there like a race you did that kind of showed that, okay, what I did worked?

00:03:54.960 Yeah.

00:03:55.240 So I spent 13 weeks with the Hoka Northern Arizona elite professional running team in

00:04:00.340 Flagstaff, Arizona.

00:04:01.600 So that was like a complete marathon training cycle.

00:04:04.840 And at the end of that buildup, I ran the Chicago Marathon.

00:04:08.900 Interestingly, the agent for the team, a guy named Josh Cox, he pulled some strings and

00:04:13.120 got me a professional bib.

00:04:16.200 So I had a two-digit number.

00:04:17.360 I got to start, you know, Chicago Marathon is like 40,000 runners.

00:04:20.840 And I got to start like in row three, right up, you know, within touching distance of the

00:04:25.320 guy and the gal who ended up winning the race.

00:04:28.060 I did not.

00:04:29.260 But I did undergo like an astonishing transformation.

00:04:33.160 I aged in reverse.

00:04:34.420 I ran my fastest marathon ever.

00:04:36.300 It was about my 40th or 41st marathon.

00:04:39.340 And I beat a time that I thought I would never come anywhere close to again, you know, improved

00:04:44.860 by two minutes, a time I had set nine years before and hadn't gotten within nine minutes

00:04:50.300 of since.

00:04:51.140 So to say that, you know, I proved what I set out to prove is an understatement.

00:04:56.120 Right.

00:04:56.700 No, it's impressive.

00:04:57.720 So as you said, you've kind of had your feet in two worlds.

00:05:01.760 You've had it in the world, the pro world where you're writing about these pro runners,

00:05:05.080 but also you're coaching amateur runners.

00:05:07.700 And what you've done with your book, Run Like a Pro, Even If You're Slow, is show amateur

00:05:12.800 runners the principles that elite runners use to perform at their best, that they're just

00:05:17.780 as applicable to amateur runners.

00:05:19.980 But before we get to some of these principles, let's talk about the differences you've seen

00:05:23.340 between pro runners and amateur runners and how they approach running.

00:05:28.020 So what are the differences?

00:05:29.220 Like an amateur runner, what are they doing differently than what pro runners are doing?

00:05:32.960 You know, the first thing that anyone would think of is running a lot less, right?

00:05:39.580 So that's obvious.

00:05:40.820 But I guess, you know, the thing I would say, that's a good opportunity to mention that when

00:05:44.880 I say that everyone should train like the elites, I don't mean that you should not just

00:05:49.420 train, but kind of like, you know, practice all the same methodologies as the elites.

00:05:54.320 I don't mean that you should like literally match them in every detail.

00:05:59.040 Like, you know, the typical, you know, elite runner runs 120, 130 miles per week, that would

00:06:04.260 destroy most people.

00:06:05.920 So it's not that sort of literal monkey see, monkey do I'm talking about, but emulating

00:06:10.240 the underlying principles.

00:06:12.280 So, you know, so the principle behind volume for the elites is they find the maximum, the

00:06:19.700 amount of running that benefits their fitness maximally.

00:06:23.160 So, you know, just before they get to that point of not diminishing returns, but negative

00:06:27.700 returns.

00:06:28.560 And they said they find that limit and then they sit just one step on the safe side of

00:06:33.460 it.

00:06:34.020 Most, you know, even though most recreational runners couldn't run as much as the elites,

00:06:38.960 they also don't run as much as they themselves could benefit from doing.

00:06:42.860 And because they typically just think, oh, well, you know, I'm slow.

00:06:46.560 What's the point?

00:06:47.260 So that's an obvious one.

00:06:48.340 Some of the stuff that's, I guess, you know, less obvious, like even some of the stuff that

00:06:52.740 I myself as a very serious and experienced competitive runner wasn't really doing before

00:06:57.280 I got to Flagstaff, just kind of like, you know, more complex, well thought out warmups.

00:07:02.900 You know, I would just, you know, work at my desk for three hours, get up, lace up my

00:07:06.620 shoes, get out the door, start running.

00:07:08.680 You know, a pro runner is more likely to, you know, get up from the desk, change into their

00:07:13.700 running gear and then do some activation exercises to just, you know, warrior.

00:07:18.320 Your lunges and stuff to kind of wake up their body and get it ready to move.

00:07:23.520 Then they would do a little bit of jogging.

00:07:25.820 Then they would probably do a more dynamic warmup, like some drills and some short accelerations.

00:07:32.140 And then they would get into the meat of their workout.

00:07:34.960 So just, you know, it's, I get it.

00:07:37.620 You know, most people, they feel like, oh man, I barely have time for the running.

00:07:40.380 I got to do all that other stuff.

00:07:41.540 But, you know, like the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

00:07:44.700 And, you know, when I started doing all these other little ancillary things that I had,

00:07:48.740 you know, I had been cutting corners on before I improved.

00:07:52.420 No, yeah.

00:07:52.880 That was one of the big take.

00:07:53.680 We'll talk about this too, but just how not hard pro runners go.

00:07:57.540 I think a lot of amateur runners, at least when I've done running, when I've prepared

00:08:00.560 for like a 5k or like an obstacle race, I just like my, my approach to running is like,

00:08:05.100 I'm just going to go as hard as I can.

00:08:06.280 And I'm going to just be huffing and puffing and pro runners don't really do that.

00:08:10.780 They actually take it pretty easy.

00:08:13.020 Yes.

00:08:13.700 You know, about 80% of the time.

00:08:15.760 Yeah.

00:08:16.080 That honestly is probably the most costly discrepancy in how amateur runners train compared to the

00:08:24.340 pros.

00:08:24.700 So I call it the moderate intensity rut where, you know, pretty much every run that, you

00:08:31.500 know, the typical recreational runner does is not really easy.

00:08:35.980 Not, it's not, you know, it's not at a physiologically low intensity, but it's also not that hard

00:08:40.900 either, you know, because think about it.

00:08:42.700 If you're going medium hard every day, you don't have anything left to go really hard.

00:08:47.240 And so, you know, whereas the typical recreational runners caught in this moderate intensity rut

00:08:52.100 for the elite runners, their training is more polarized in intensity where their easy days

00:08:57.760 are really easy and their hard days are really hard.

00:08:59.920 And there's not all that much in the middle.

00:09:01.900 Okay.

00:09:02.060 We'll get back to volume and intensity here in a bit, but I want to start digging in more

00:09:07.560 into specifics that amateur runners can learn from the pros by starting with why you say even

00:09:14.000 recreational runners need a credibly sourced running plan.

00:09:19.060 And you've got lots of plans in your book because I think, I mean, a lot of folks, I think

00:09:22.780 when they start running, they just sort of run to gain some sort of general fitness.

00:09:27.180 They might vaguely try to get faster each time and you can get fit enough to finish a 5k

00:09:33.060 race that way.

00:09:34.060 But if you really want to improve your performance, like you want to do well, you argue that you

00:09:38.760 have to have a specific training plan for the specific distance of race you're going

00:09:42.920 to run because you don't just want to get generally fit.

00:09:47.140 You want to time your progression with your training so that you're peaking around race 0.96

00:09:51.980 time so that you can perform your best when it really counts.

00:09:54.840 Right?

00:09:55.660 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:57.060 So I think, you know, a lot of people, they come to running from, you know, like a background

00:10:01.780 in general fitness and in that domain, you have this sort of get fit, stay fit mentality.

00:10:06.880 Right?

00:10:07.440 So like you get off the couch, you get a gym membership, you start working out.

00:10:11.860 And eventually you start getting the results you want, and then you just try to maintain

00:10:16.540 them, right?

00:10:17.600 That's actually very different from what you're trying to do in competitive running, where

00:10:22.240 you're actually, you know, peak fitness is not a sustainable state.

00:10:26.440 You know, if you really want to be at your best, you know, for one competition, in the

00:10:31.640 lead up to it, you need to build up to a level of training that, you know, they refer to

00:10:36.660 it as a functional overreaching where you're still benefiting from it.

00:10:40.780 But if you kept doing it, you would crash.

00:10:43.800 And then so the idea is to like, you know, time that that functional overreaching period

00:10:48.120 so that you taper right after that.

00:10:51.600 So you build up to that peak.

00:10:52.960 It's not sustainable, but that's okay because you're not trying to sustain it.

00:10:56.180 Then for one to three weeks, you bring it down and then you you're really fit and you're

00:11:00.720 really fresh.

00:11:01.360 You compete and then you need a break.

00:11:02.920 Then you need time off before you can start a fresh build up.

00:11:06.200 You know, again, that's with that timing element and the specificity of the kind of fitness

00:11:10.720 you're trying to build, you know, winging it is just very unlikely to get you there or

00:11:15.660 even a plan built by someone who doesn't know a lot about running.

00:11:19.760 Well, yeah, that's an important point.

00:11:21.080 The planning that goes on it pro runners not only plan like they're running, but they actually

00:11:25.420 they plan in like what you can call them deload weeks where they're just taking time

00:11:29.080 off so that they can recover and continue the training.

00:11:31.900 And I think a lot of amateurs do that.

00:11:35.060 Yes, because you're what you're really doing is, you know, like moments of unsustainable

00:11:41.040 workloads all along the way.

00:11:42.860 Right.

00:11:43.300 So if you tried to train a little bit harder each week than the week before, you're only

00:11:49.320 going to be able to keep doing that, even if you're young and fit and durable, you know,

00:11:53.740 for maybe eight weeks tops before you hit a wall.

00:11:57.680 But if you if you do take sort of a three steps forward, one voluntary intentional plan

00:12:04.000 step back approach, then you can actually attain a higher eventual peak workload without

00:12:10.320 breaking down.

00:12:11.820 Okay.

00:12:11.960 So I guess the principle there plan things out and also expect this to take months.

00:12:16.020 It's not going to just be like, you know, you can't just train from workout to workout.

00:12:19.880 You have to think weeks, even months in advance.

00:12:22.300 I think it's the big I think it might be a hard shift for amateur runners to make because

00:12:26.140 it's not very rewarding.

00:12:27.420 I mean, honestly, they'll be like, wow, man, I'm going to do I'm going to run slower than

00:12:31.120 I usually do.

00:12:32.740 Like, but like, you got to keep that long term perspective in your view.

00:12:38.300 Yeah, it's worth it.

00:12:39.880 Yeah.

00:12:40.160 So you mentioned that one thing the pros do differently from amateurs is that they just

00:12:43.860 they just run a lot more.

00:12:45.280 The meetings like 120 miles a week.

00:12:47.620 Like, what about like the average Joe, right?

00:12:50.120 Like, how much should they be running?

00:12:52.220 I mean, I'm guessing it depends on their personal circumstances, right?

00:12:56.720 Yeah, because I use this phrase in the book, your mileage sweet spot.

00:13:02.300 So that's the underlying principle is that, you know, and this is my co author of this book,

00:13:08.460 Ben Rosario, the coach of the professional team I trained with in 2017.

00:13:12.440 He makes this point, like, he gives examples of specific individual runners on his team.

00:13:17.620 You know, there's one who goes all the way up to 140 miles some weeks.

00:13:22.920 And then there's another runner on the same team who competes in some of the same events

00:13:27.440 who only run 65 to 70 miles per week.

00:13:30.580 So about half.

00:13:31.720 And it's because one of the runners is very durable and the other one isn't.

00:13:36.400 But they're both, you know, granted, 65 to 70 miles a week is still plenty.

00:13:40.580 But the underlying principle, the thing that they're both doing, even though the numbers

00:13:44.440 belay it, is they have both found their mileage sweet spot.

00:13:49.740 And, you know, I hinted at what that really is earlier in our conversation.

00:13:53.700 It's, you know, it's that it's the volume of running that is associated with your maximal returns.

00:14:01.300 So, you know, at some point, you get diminishing returns all along the way.

00:14:06.000 So that's what I'm talking about.

00:14:07.180 Like, if you go from 10 to 20 miles per week, you're going to get much more return than if

00:14:12.940 you go from 20 to 30.

00:14:15.020 And if you go from, you know, 30 to 40, you're going to get less return than you would before.

00:14:19.560 So the returns are diminishing all along the way, but they're still positive.

00:14:22.960 You're still getting fitter.

00:14:23.800 So the sweet spot comes just before the level where you actually start to get worse by adding

00:14:29.780 more mileage, but you're just breaking yourself down and piling fatigue on your body.

00:14:34.580 So and that's it's a little bit of a moving target because when, you know, it takes, they

00:14:39.460 call it training to train, you know, it takes some time to develop the, you know, the infrastructure

00:14:45.060 in your body to be able to handle, you know, your lifetime sweet spot of volume.

00:14:50.040 And it's really, it's so individual that it's a little bit of an experiment.

00:14:54.060 Like, you know, it's, it's a structured experiment.

00:14:56.760 You're not just, you know, putting yourself through the meat grinder, but you, you don't

00:15:00.340 really know what your sweet spot is going to be until you discover it.

00:15:04.300 Well, how do you know when an athlete has figured out their sweet spot?

00:15:07.320 You know, the, the most common way is, is breaking down actually, like either getting injured

00:15:12.780 or just, you know, becoming, going from functional to non-functional overreaching where you just,

00:15:18.500 you can feel yourself getting less fit, even though you're running more.

00:15:22.920 So, you know, it sounds like it's okay.

00:15:25.220 Well, you have to just push them off the cliff.

00:15:26.900 Well, kind of, yeah, but it's not, you're not really going off a cliff.

00:15:29.940 You know, it's not the end of the world.

00:15:31.440 If you overcook yourself, you know, a couple of times in training, like, because there's

00:15:36.440 a lot of value in it.

00:15:37.360 It's like, okay, well, there's my limit.

00:15:39.180 You know, Ben actually, he tries to be a little more conservative because, you know, he's training

00:15:43.280 people whose livelihood depends on staying healthy and fit.

00:15:46.380 So he just tends to be pretty conservative and he'll, you know, he'll gradually bring

00:15:51.740 athletes along in that process.

00:15:53.680 And he'll often kind of cap their mileage when, you know, before they go off the cliff,

00:15:58.680 when it just seems like, Hey, you know, you're winning races.

00:16:01.660 So why, you know, it ain't broke.

00:16:03.860 So let's not fix it.

00:16:04.920 So that's another way when you're just, if you've gone through the process and you're

00:16:08.500 running a lot more than you were at the beginning and you're feeling great and you're performing

00:16:12.660 well and you're happy with your results, you can just sort of hang out there and spare

00:16:16.300 yourself learning the hard way what your limit is.

00:16:19.140 One thing I thought was an interesting tidbit from the book on volume and how much you should

00:16:22.640 run.

00:16:23.300 You make the suggestion as well as Ben that when you're first starting out, like not to

00:16:27.420 make mileage a goal, instead just make time your goal.

00:16:31.440 Why is it, why do you think it's better to focus on time and not mileage?

00:16:33.640 It's really because your body doesn't adapt to exposure to mileage.

00:16:40.700 It adapts to exposure to time.

00:16:44.220 And so time, when you measure by time, it's a great equalizer.

00:16:48.000 You know, if I had, you know, if I were leading a workout for a group of 20 runners of all different

00:16:53.700 fitness levels, and I wanted them to have an equal challenge, I would make, I could do so

00:17:00.600 by making the workout time-based versus distance-based to, you know, to get concrete.

00:17:06.440 For example, you know, most people listening probably are familiar with the concept of VO2

00:17:11.020 max, which is an exercise intensity associated with your maximal breathing rate when your muscles

00:17:16.720 are consuming oxygen as fast as they possibly can.

00:17:19.680 So not a full sprint, but a very high, kind of the highest sustainable intensity of exercise.

00:17:25.380 Now, whether you are very, very moderately fit, or you are an elite runner, you can probably

00:17:32.340 sustain the pace associated with your VO2 max for about six minutes.

00:17:38.040 So obviously that pace will be a lot faster for an elite runner, but it's still, that's

00:17:43.700 an intensity you can sustain for about six minutes, whether you're not that fit or you're

00:17:47.780 extremely fit.

00:17:49.160 So when you're looking at, well, if you want to develop your VO2 max by exposing yourself to

00:17:53.700 that intensity and training, it makes sense to make it time-based because no matter how

00:17:58.260 fit you are, you can be confident that it's an appropriate challenge level for you.

00:18:03.180 And same thing goes when you're looking at like, just how much running can your body handle?

00:18:08.540 You know, take the runner, the elite doing 120 miles per week.

00:18:11.860 Well, that's only about 12 hours of running, you know?

00:18:15.120 And so if you're a much slower runner, 12 hours of running for you might actually be doable

00:18:20.460 in a week, but you're only going to cover, you know, maybe 70 miles in that time versus

00:18:25.000 120.

00:18:26.720 So, I mean, you give this great example, say like you're starting out, right?

00:18:29.360 Like you're like, I want to get into running using this time-based approach.

00:18:32.560 Like what would a training schedule look like?

00:18:34.640 Would it be just like, would you schedule an hour, hour long blocks?

00:18:39.060 Yeah.

00:18:39.420 I mean, if you're, you know, a raw beginner, you know, let's just say you've been doing

00:18:43.320 some exercise, but no running, you know, because of the high impact nature of running, you

00:18:48.220 know, injury risk is sky high in those first steps.

00:18:52.720 And so I'm very cautious with, you know, that it's sort of like an inoculation, you

00:18:57.220 know, those first few, few runs you do.

00:18:59.480 So I would have people, many, especially if they're overweight or older, I might have them

00:19:04.300 start with walk runs.

00:19:06.000 So, you know, run a minute, walk four minutes, run a minute, walk four minutes, do that for

00:19:10.300 30 minutes.

00:19:11.240 And then I would also have people, now some people can, they don't, they can skip that

00:19:14.700 step.

00:19:15.040 They can, they can go ahead and just run for 30 minutes.

00:19:16.860 But even if you're one of those people, I would not have you run again for 48 hours

00:19:21.280 because your body needs time to absorb all that stress and then, you know, remodel the

00:19:26.600 affected tissues, the bones, the muscles, the connective tissues, and just actually emerge

00:19:31.580 stronger.

00:19:32.380 So give yourself 48 hours before you expose yourself to another dose of repetitive impact

00:19:37.580 and then just go from there.

00:19:39.600 You know, it's just, you know, step by step, you know, give yourself, you know, you know,

00:19:44.220 maybe at least 10 days at a certain level of running and see, see if you can handle it.

00:19:49.080 And that sort of earns you the right to take the next step.

00:19:52.080 Eventually you can get to the point where you can start running on consecutive days.

00:19:55.440 Again, where that threshold is depends on your starting point and how you seem to be absorbing

00:20:00.520 the progression.

00:20:02.040 The thing that I recommend that everyone, anyone, anyone who has ambitions of just kind of like

00:20:06.520 seeing what they can do as a runner.

00:20:08.060 I give them sort of like initial target of seven hours, like try, no matter how long it

00:20:13.560 takes, no matter where your starting point is, try to see if you can get up to seven hours

00:20:17.320 of running per week, which is, you know, it's about an hour per day, every day.

00:20:21.780 You can do a lot with that amount of running.

00:20:23.940 You can, you can achieve most goals that most amateur runners would want to achieve for

00:20:28.140 themselves.

00:20:28.600 And it's, you know, it's a commitment, but most people can also fit that into their lifestyles.

00:20:34.360 Yeah.

00:20:34.720 I think that the time approach is really a lot more because I think the mileage thing

00:20:37.860 can get really debilitating for people and it could also just cause them to just run

00:20:41.140 themselves in the ground.

00:20:42.020 I think like you said, that's where a lot of injuries cause you're trying to like, I

00:20:44.320 got to get 20 miles this week.

00:20:46.600 Well, no, maybe not.

00:20:47.440 Maybe you just, if you, as long as you get seven hours and you're good.

00:20:50.920 Yes.

00:20:51.600 Yeah.

00:20:51.920 Yeah.

00:20:52.380 It makes a lot of sense.

00:20:53.320 Yeah.

00:20:53.440 It takes, it makes it seem less daunting for sure.

00:20:56.000 Yeah.

00:20:56.820 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:21:00.900 And now back to the show.

00:21:02.320 Oh, let's talk about the, the speed and because we've been talking about, okay, you do all

00:21:05.960 this volume, oftentimes they're doing it at a very low intensity, but they're not just

00:21:10.280 doing low intensity work.

00:21:11.960 There's also, they're mixing in high intensity work, but like generally like, okay, how,

00:21:16.460 how do elite runners figure out like, what is low intensity for them?

00:21:21.320 Like how hard to go?

00:21:22.800 Because I've read different things about that.

00:21:24.300 There's that whole, you know, the heart rate model you use, like, well, you're, you know,

00:21:28.700 you do 180 minus your age and then you do like 70% of that.

00:21:33.140 Are elite runners doing that?

00:21:34.820 Are they doing something different?

00:21:36.720 Yeah.

00:21:37.080 They're doing something different.

00:21:39.160 You know, there's, there's been, you know, a coalescing around this concept of the first

00:21:43.980 ventilatory threshold, which is most exercise scientists now consider that the, the proper

00:21:50.560 dividing line between low intensity and moderate intensity, you know, for the typical runner,

00:21:56.720 it falls somewhere between 77 and 81% of their individual maximum heart rate.

00:22:02.320 And that's a number that varies a lot.

00:22:03.800 So you can't use, you can't use a formula for it.

00:22:07.000 Conveniently, that threshold, what happens there.

00:22:09.520 And the reason it's important is that if you're just below that threshold, it's actually

00:22:14.300 a lot less stressful on your body than if you're just above it.

00:22:18.020 That's why it is a true threshold.

00:22:19.480 And there's a spike in the breathing rate that occurs there.

00:22:22.640 It's not hyperventilation.

00:22:24.660 You're not even conscious of it.

00:22:25.940 You would have to just be breathing into a mask that collects your exhaled gases to know

00:22:31.380 where that threshold actually lies.

00:22:33.960 But the reason is that it's important is that if you, if you go from just below it to just

00:22:37.640 above it, your brain has to start recruiting different types of muscle fibers in order to

00:22:42.700 keep up with the demand that your muscles are putting on it.

00:22:45.480 And it's just, it's sort of like, it's almost literally like flipping a switch.

00:22:48.600 And so it just, it makes it more stressful to your autonomic nervous system.

00:22:53.120 So it takes a little bit longer to recover from, which is fine if you do that once.

00:22:57.380 But if you do it habitually, then you're creating this chronic burden of never fully

00:23:03.240 processed fatigue that just kind of stops you from getting all you can, all the benefit

00:23:08.100 you ought to be getting from the running you're doing.

00:23:10.600 The convenient thing is that, you know, that threshold aligns with the fastest running pace

00:23:15.740 at which you can carry on a conversation comfortably.

00:23:19.280 And so, you know, one advantage that elite runners have in that regard is that they can

00:23:24.800 run pretty darn fast in absolute terms and still be below that threshold just because

00:23:29.980 they're, they're so fit.

00:23:31.300 And most elite runners, they, you know, the team I trained with, they train in groups and

00:23:35.320 they actually are having conversations when they're, when they're doing their low intensity

00:23:39.640 runs.

00:23:40.120 So that's what they do.

00:23:41.160 They just go out there.

00:23:42.140 Most of them are not wearing heart rate monitors.

00:23:44.240 They're, they're barely even paying attention to their pace.

00:23:46.920 They're just, you know, just jogging along comfortably having a conversation and it gets the job done

00:23:52.460 without really much fussing about, you know, the, the objective numbers.

00:23:57.180 Okay.

00:23:57.260 So most of the training is done just below this threshold.

00:24:00.020 And if you can have a conversation, you're, you're probably good.

00:24:02.680 And, but, you know, runners also have to do some high intensity work because you want

00:24:06.900 to be able to practice for that kick at the end, right?

00:24:10.260 If you're running a marathon, usually you're kind of, you're running harder at the end.

00:24:13.900 So you can, if you need to beat someone, you can, how do elite runners incorporate high

00:24:18.480 intensity training if they're doing most of their work with low intensity volume?

00:24:23.200 Yep.

00:24:23.420 It's really, you know, the simplest way to think about it is in terms of like on a per session

00:24:28.800 basis or per, you know, per run basis.

00:24:30.920 So, you know, the typical elite runner is running usually 13 times per week.

00:24:37.460 So twice a day, six days, and then like one easy run on, on their quote unquote rest day.

00:24:43.300 And of those 13 runs, usually three involve, are sort of focused on more intense efforts.

00:24:50.700 So it's about one out of every three runs is set aside for, for harder work.

00:24:55.900 And that ratio works pretty well, no matter what your running frequency is.

00:25:00.180 So if you run three times a week, you know, one run should be high intensity.

00:25:04.020 If you run six times per week, two should be, and so on.

00:25:07.560 So that's really the way, the way they approach it.

00:25:09.760 And it's like, you know, they train in, in micro cycles that have a recurring structure.

00:25:14.320 So they just get in a nice rhythm with their training.

00:25:17.620 It's, you know, one or two easy days, then a hard day, one or two easy days, hard day.

00:25:23.020 And so it becomes very predictable.

00:25:24.800 They know what their body can handle. 0.63

00:25:26.600 They work hard on the hard days, but they have the time to regenerate between hard days and it works.

00:25:33.120 On those high intensity days, are they trying to reach certain speed, heart rate?

00:25:37.060 Like, what are they, what's the goal there usually?

00:25:39.620 There's a great variety of, you know, because really, so when I say, you know, higher intensities,

00:25:46.400 I'm really talking about everything in the, in that kind of moderate to maximal range,

00:25:51.060 which is a very broad range.

00:25:52.800 There's a lot you can do there.

00:25:54.220 So it's not all one type of workout, you know?

00:25:57.080 So I was training for a marathon with that group, as were most of the real pros on the team.

00:26:03.080 So, you know, marathon pace for them, you know, for, you know, for, for the male runners,

00:26:07.980 you're talking about like two hours and 10 minutes is, is their marathon pace.

00:26:11.980 And for the women, you know, two 25 to two 30. 1.00

00:26:16.060 So, you know, that's not a high intensity.

00:26:18.020 That's a moderate intensity, you know, a pace you could sustain for more than two hours.

00:26:22.360 And so there was a fair amount of work that would be sort of like, you know, that's not an easy run either though.

00:26:28.100 So when we did marathon pace workouts, it would be like a fairly high volume of work at that somewhat aggressive pace.

00:26:37.200 And then other days would be much, much more intense than that.

00:26:40.540 So short blasts of speed with active or passive recoveries between them.

00:26:45.600 And then, you know, sort of in between those, you would have some longer intervals, like fast, but not quite that fast.

00:26:51.240 And then, you know, like tempo runs, which are faster than marathon pace, but, you know, maybe slower than 5k or 10k pace.

00:26:58.840 And so there's, there's just quite a bit of variety.

00:27:01.560 And so, you know, I practically did not ever do the same workout twice during, during the 13 weeks I was there.

00:27:08.200 Cause it's like, well, if you've already done it, let's not do it again.

00:27:11.360 Let's progress from there.

00:27:13.040 And generally what you're trying to do is get more and more specific to the demands of whatever you're actually trying to train for.

00:27:19.840 All right. So I guess the takeaway, the principle there, every third workout, do some sort of high intensity.

00:27:24.980 Again, high intensity is like moderate to high, like your heart feels like it's going to come out of your chest.

00:27:29.980 There's different ways you're going to do that.

00:27:31.220 But again, I think the principle, like the overarching principle that I got from that part was most of your stuff's going to be low intensity volume.

00:27:38.580 That's where they spend most of their time.

00:27:39.940 Cause it, it allows you to get that, get the most fitness, but also just doesn't beat you, beat you up.

00:27:44.560 So it allows you to train more and the more you train, the better you're going to be.

00:27:47.780 Yeah. You know, one thing that, you know, for, for those who are like having trouble wrapping their head around, like, why, why is that the best way?

00:27:56.140 One thing that I think most people don't know that kind of makes sense of all this is like, you know, if you take like a very, very challenging, you know, high intensity interval workout.

00:28:05.220 So like, you know, going to the track and running one hard lap, so 400 meters, a quarter mile, and then recovering and then doing it again and then doing it again and say doing it, you know, 12 times.

00:28:19.600 So, you know, 12 times a hard quarter mile with recoveries between them.

00:28:24.200 If you do that type of run, like as like your bread and butter, like that's the main type of training you do.

00:28:30.160 And you don't do a lot of easy running and you have another runner who does a lot of easy running and only does that type of workout.

00:28:37.800 Occasionally the runner who does a ton of easy running will destroy the other runner who specializes in that type of workout.

00:28:45.240 Absolutely destroy them.

00:28:46.360 So that's what you're getting from all that easy running.

00:28:49.280 It actually allows you to do, now if you do all easy running, you're going to have a very bad time at the track.

00:28:56.960 But if it's mostly easy and just a sprinkling of those hard interval workouts, it actually makes you better at the hard interval workouts.

00:29:03.660 It's not that it's either good or bad.

00:29:05.440 You're just, you're getting the most out of it if you're doing most of your running at low intensity.

00:29:10.780 Well, let's talk about something I've, whenever I read popular press about running,

00:29:14.900 there's a lot of emphasis on running form, right?

00:29:17.780 You got to be a midfoot striker.

00:29:19.580 You don't want to be a heel lander. 1.00

00:29:21.580 Maybe you should get a running coach if you want to up your running game.

00:29:24.480 Do the pros worry about that stuff?

00:29:27.520 No, not, not very much.

00:29:29.780 You know, I, I mentioned in the book that, you know, during the three plus months,

00:29:33.100 I was in Flagstaff, Ben, the coach of the team, he didn't correct my form once or,

00:29:39.320 you know, manipulated or, you know, asked me to change it a single time.

00:29:42.600 And I did not see him do that with any of the pros on the team.

00:29:46.240 And that was pretty much expected.

00:29:47.320 You know, I've been involved in the sport long enough to know that running technique is not emphasized at the elite level.

00:29:54.800 Now that could be for one of two reasons, right?

00:29:56.780 It could be one, one potential reason is that, well, they all have perfect form.

00:30:00.940 That's how they became pros.

00:30:02.200 And so there's nothing to fix.

00:30:03.480 The other possible reason is that sort of batting practice for running is not actually an effective way to get better at running.

00:30:12.900 And it turns out that the latter is true, that like running form matters and running form can and should change,

00:30:21.040 but you can't manipulate it consciously.

00:30:24.040 It actually has, it's counterproductive.

00:30:25.940 And there's a lot of science showing this.

00:30:27.400 If you tell a runner who runs X way, no, you got to run Y way and you measure their running economy,

00:30:34.660 their efficiency before and after, no matter what you have them change,

00:30:39.400 no matter how textbook it looks, no matter how much, you know, prettier their form looks,

00:30:44.600 they've gotten less efficient.

00:30:46.320 So the key is to run naturally.

00:30:48.600 And there are ways you can evolve your stride to make it more efficient through actually,

00:30:53.700 you know, strength training and plyometric training helps.

00:30:55.740 Just running a lot helps running at different intensities, helps, helps getting fitter, helps losing weight, helps.

00:31:01.060 So there's, there's lots of ways to evolve your running form,

00:31:03.880 but like, you know, just intentionally like landing differently with your foot on the ground and stuff like that is not the way to go.

00:31:12.860 Yeah.

00:31:12.980 And you, you highlighted there are elite runners who are heel strikers and they're, they're doing all right.

00:31:16.960 They just said maybe their training is different because they, it does put a lot of stress on their, their lower limbs,

00:31:22.660 but it works for them.

00:31:23.840 And I think the point you do, that's the other point is like why you should run a lot at a low intensity.

00:31:28.100 The more you run, the better you're running will get.

00:31:31.660 Like your body's going to adapt to find the most efficient form for you.

00:31:35.940 Yes.

00:31:36.200 They call it a self-optimizing system.

00:31:38.140 And you know, what's going on with every single stride you take,

00:31:42.300 your brain and your, the rest of your body are talking to each other.

00:31:46.520 And so your brain's kind of like listening, like, how's it going down there?

00:31:50.940 And it's like, if you measure, you know, running mechanics with sophisticated accelerometers and,

00:31:56.700 and, you know, force plates and stuff, what you see is actually no two strides that any runner takes are identical.

00:32:02.460 There's a little, you know, a little bit of play in the stride continuously that you can't see with the naked eye.

00:32:08.780 And, you know, there's no way to eliminate that.

00:32:11.080 And you wouldn't want to because that play allows for your nervous system to look for more efficient ways to get the job done.

00:32:19.040 But actually your running form changes over the course of a single run because you're,

00:32:23.940 you will unconsciously adjust your form to make up for fatigue starting to set in.

00:32:29.380 So, you know, this unconscious system is way smarter than your conscious brain.

00:32:34.080 So you sort of just have to get out of the way and let it do its thing.

00:32:38.080 Okay.

00:32:38.160 So the takeaway there, don't worry too much about your form.

00:32:40.800 Pretty much.

00:32:41.460 Yeah.

00:32:41.660 As long as you run a lot, your form will get, will optimize, self-optimize.

00:32:45.820 Let's talk about recovery.

00:32:46.840 How do pros approach recovery differently from the amateurs?

00:32:52.120 You know, the interesting thing there is that you might think, oh yeah, the pros are doing,

00:32:57.260 you know, all the fancy expensive stuff like, you know, supplements and, you know, cryotherapy

00:33:02.880 and compression boots and, you know, massage guns.

00:33:06.480 And yeah, I mean, they do some of that, but really, you know, what the science shows is that,

00:33:11.760 and it kind of makes sense, like the things that make a real big impact with recovery

00:33:16.340 are the basics, the low-tech stuff.

00:33:19.060 So, you know, rest, sleep, nutrition, and stress management are the big ones.

00:33:25.500 Like those are foundational.

00:33:27.580 And pretty much, you know, if you're doing those four things well consistently, then you're

00:33:34.000 getting about, you know, probably 98% of the recovery that you could possibly get.

00:33:38.880 And then that other stuff, you know, the supplements and the compression boots can maybe get you

00:33:44.440 that other, you know, one or 2%.

00:33:46.680 There was a study done on, I guess, at these runs, there's like tents you can go to where

00:33:51.800 you can get compression boots and like massage stuff.

00:33:55.240 And I think that the study they found, correct me if I'm wrong, is like the athletes who go

00:33:58.340 to that stuff more do worse than the athletes who don't go to it.

00:34:02.260 Don't get that stuff done.

00:34:03.160 Yeah, that was actually from the Olympic Training Center.

00:34:06.500 So, it was actually Olympic-level athletes.

00:34:09.100 So, even at that level, they found that, yeah, they had a recovery center at the Olympic

00:34:13.620 Training Center.

00:34:14.760 And just the guy who operated that facility kept track of who used it.

00:34:20.380 And he found that the people who used it least were most likely to win medals.

00:34:25.440 So, yeah, kind of interesting.

00:34:26.920 And so, yeah, and then if you look at sort of like the competitive recreational runner,

00:34:32.540 I think what you see is a lot of people, they use the gizmos and the high-tech stuff as a

00:34:39.540 way to make up for not doing the basics, right?

00:34:42.740 So, it's like, well, I don't get enough sleep, but that's okay because I got my compression

00:34:47.000 boots. 0.81

00:34:47.600 It's like, my diet's crap, but that's okay because I take all these supplements. 0.96

00:34:51.480 It doesn't work like that. 0.94

00:34:52.720 So, if there's any benefit in the high-tech stuff, you're only going to get it if you're

00:34:58.940 already taking care of the basics.

00:35:01.960 So, yeah, when you were at this camp, you were, what, sleeping 10 hours a night?

00:35:04.880 And then also, you were getting a nap, like an hour nap during the day, correct?

00:35:07.620 Well, that was the guy, that was the real pro runner I was living with when I was there,

00:35:11.880 a guy named Matt Yano.

00:35:13.200 So, yeah, he was sleeping 10 hours a night and napping one or two hours in the afternoon.

00:35:19.260 I, when I was there, like, I'm just not a napper.

00:35:21.760 Like, I have to have the flu and then, even then, if I, when I wake up from my nap, I'm

00:35:27.100 still a zombie for the rest of the day.

00:35:28.480 So, I'm like, you know, forget it.

00:35:29.820 No way am I going to nap.

00:35:30.860 But, you know, when we got really, really deep into the training, I started napping too.

00:35:37.080 I saw, okay, this is why they do it.

00:35:39.840 Just, yeah, in order, I was just, I was ready for it.

00:35:42.480 You know, I was, my body was telling me, hey, dude, in order to, you know, be able to

00:35:47.260 sustain this workload, you're going to need a little bit more shut-eye.

00:35:50.200 But, yeah, I mean, you hear that the pros sleep a lot.

00:35:53.560 And, you know, I was living with one of them there.

00:35:55.580 And I saw firsthand that, yep, he made it a priority.

00:35:58.700 All right.

00:35:58.820 So, get sleep.

00:35:59.940 The pros, of course, are also taking care of nutrition for their recovery.

00:36:02.960 But you talk about the book.

00:36:03.820 They're not really big on you.

00:36:04.920 You can't eat this.

00:36:05.800 You can't eat that.

00:36:07.020 They just eat a lot of natural, unprocessed foods, lots of different high-quality foods.

00:36:12.180 And you mentioned this in the book.

00:36:14.400 That means for a lot of the pros, they're getting about 60% to 7% of their food from carbs.

00:36:19.960 So, pros are running on a high-carb diet.

00:36:22.980 And then the other thing for recovery is just stress management.

00:36:26.340 And for the pros, they basically don't do anything except run and then just hang out, basically.

00:36:32.060 So, just hanging out, relaxing.

00:36:34.040 For the average Joe, they don't have that luxury just to hang out when they're not running.

00:36:37.300 They have to go to work.

00:36:37.960 But you talk about you can employ standard stress management practices like meditation, breathing exercises, things like that.

00:36:46.020 You also mentioned that part of the recovery process for pros and just staying optimally fit is doing cross-training.

00:36:52.880 What does that look like?

00:36:54.360 Yeah.

00:36:54.940 You know, this is one, it's like, it's really an untapped resource for a lot of recreational runners.

00:37:00.660 You know, most humans and definitely most recreational runners, they actually, you know, we talked about that mileage sweet spot before.

00:37:09.700 But really, you know, because running is so hard on the body, you know, through that repetitive impact, most runners, when they hit their sweet spot where they just can't handle any more running,

00:37:21.760 they still have untapped potential to gain aerobic fitness.

00:37:25.920 And the only way to mine that potential is to get aerobic training in some other modality, right?

00:37:32.480 Because you're already doing as much running as you can do, but there's nothing stopping you from doing something else.

00:37:38.780 You know, swimming, cycling, cross-country skiing, rowing, whatever it is.

00:37:42.720 You can actually gain, you know, a little bit extra aerobic fitness without increasing your injury risk because you're not subjecting your body to any more pounding.

00:37:52.060 So, the pros, like, you know, they definitely, because, you know, they're paid to run, they try to get all of their fitness through running.

00:38:01.680 And they will only supplement with cross-training if it's apparent that they can't get to the mountaintop through running alone.

00:38:10.040 But they're very quick to do it.

00:38:11.640 You know, they won't hesitate for a second.

00:38:13.880 You know, a lot of runners, they're like, well, I don't like that doing that other stuff.

00:38:16.860 I just want to run.

00:38:17.980 And then so they just go from all to nothing.

00:38:19.820 You know, they run until they get injured, and then they do nothing for six weeks while they heal.

00:38:24.740 And, you know, that's no way to do it.

00:38:27.040 And, you know, interestingly, when I was halfway through my fake pro-runner stint in Flagstaff, I got injured.

00:38:32.700 And I cross-trained like a maniac.

00:38:35.100 And it was actually a pretty serious injury.

00:38:36.740 It was a, you know, strain in a hip abductor tendon.

00:38:40.240 And, you know, I was in the hands of the support team there with their, you know, physical therapist.

00:38:44.520 And, you know, even, shoot, I was even seeing a sports psychologist while I was there.

00:38:49.680 And I made this, you know, what felt to me like a miraculous recovery.

00:38:53.940 And I was just so much fitter than I thought I could be, even though, like, there was a period when I wasn't able to do much running at all while I was healing.

00:39:01.300 But because of all that cross-training, I was able to pick right back up where I left off.

00:39:05.600 And, like I said, still run my fastest marathon.

00:39:08.520 Yeah, one type of cross-training that I saw there was treadmill hill climbs, which is, it was funny when I saw it, because my wife, she's a runner. 0.91

00:39:14.980 And for a long time, she kind of settled in.

00:39:16.680 Like, she does the treadmill. 0.96

00:39:18.340 What she'll do is she'll put the treadmill at the highest incline you can go and just walk while she watches at Law & Order. 1.00

00:39:24.280 And I was like, that's pretty silly.

00:39:26.240 Like, how's that supposed to help you running?

00:39:28.520 Then I read this, like, oh, my gosh, you're vindicated.

00:39:30.640 Like, you figured out this principle, and it works.

00:39:34.000 And she says it works for her.

00:39:35.160 It helps her out a lot.

00:39:36.740 Yeah, it's good stuff.

00:39:37.700 Because if you think about it, like, you know, what you're doing is very, very similar to running.

00:39:42.560 You know, if you want the fitness you get from cross-training to transfer back to fitness, then you should choose something that is fairly similar.

00:39:49.700 And incline treadmill walking is, you know, it's not no impact, it's low impact.

00:39:56.400 So you're still getting a little bit of impact, which is actually good.

00:39:58.720 And then, you know, you're using, you know, it's weighted, and you're using, you know, sequential movements of your legs, just like you do in running.

00:40:05.760 It's just, yeah, it does look a little goofy, but it works, like you said.

00:40:10.740 It works.

00:40:11.480 Well, let's talk about mindset now, generally, how pro runners approach it differently from amateur runners.

00:40:16.280 And this kind of segues nicely to our conversation we had last time, a couple years ago, about your other book, How Bad Do You Want It?

00:40:21.960 What approach do pros take when it comes to sort of the psychology of performance that amateurs don't?

00:40:28.260 Yeah, I mean, I love this topic, as you know, already, because, you know, quite honestly, yeah, I mean, you know, the pro runners I was around at that time and others I've gotten to know, I mean, they are impressive physical specimens, right?

00:40:41.160 I mean, they are gifted, they work hard, they're fitter than you can imagine.

00:40:45.240 They can do things, you know, run, you know, sustain speeds that are just jaw-dropping.

00:40:49.820 So they are physically different from, you know, you and me, but they're also very different in characteristic ways above the neck.

00:41:01.700 And that is really cool to me, you know, like, you know, I think there were about 12 or 13 runners on the team when I was there, and there were just certain characteristics, like, you know, psychological characteristics that they all had that, you know, you had to think were part of the formula for their success.

00:41:18.220 And in point of fact, of those 12 or 13 runners, only one of them was like a blue-chip prospect in high school, you know, someone who was like, this guy is a generational talent.

00:41:29.220 All the rest were like, good, not great in high school, good, not great in college, but they were the ones with, you know, shoe contracts as adults because they had enough physical talent, but they also had it going on between the ears.

00:41:44.100 And it was the combination of those two things that made them great.

00:41:47.900 And I didn't quite answer your question, but I wanted to just impress on people that, like, it's not just physical.

00:41:53.060 Well, so what are some of the psychological traits that you saw in common with these guys?

00:41:55.920 You know, one is like, just like the thing that I think would be most surprising to, you know, the folks listening is like, I saw a lot of runners during the 13 weeks I was there, a lot of the pros abandoned workouts, quit workouts way more than like, you know, the, the amateur runners I coach are, they would rather die than bail out of a workout.

00:42:17.100 The pros do it all the time. And the reason they do it is not that they're lazy or mentally weak. It's because they're smart, you know, because like, I remember one runner on the team, Scott Fable, a 209 marathoner, he bailed out of a workout and I said, Hey, you know, what, what went wrong? Why, why'd you quit?

00:42:36.920 He said, well, I'm developing a sinus infection. And I figured, you know, if I, I I've had these before, and if I force it now, I could lose a week. But if I quit while I'm ahead, I should be back up to 100% in two, three days. And that's so hard for most people to do. It seems like an easy thing, right? Oh, he's just being rational.

00:42:55.860 But it's just that sort of, that sort of, that kind of confidence and trust in the process that allows them to push when it's time to push, but also to exercise discipline and restraint. You know, they don't live and die by today's performance, you know, that they understand the context. And so they're just a little bit more relaxed and centered.

00:43:18.420 And, you know, I guess the way I was talking about it with Ben recently, and we agreed that, you know, amateur runners try to win the workout and pro runners try to win the process. I mean, that, that's a key distinction.

00:43:31.260 Yeah, I think that's, that's a key distinction. I know in my own experience with barbell training, when I was first getting started, I was like, I got really serious about it. I went through this period, like if I had a bad workout, I just got all pissy and just like angry and like it ruined my day.

00:43:44.180 Yeah. But it reached a point where I like, I can't do that. Like, it's just, it's a, it's a bad workout. Like you have one bad work. It doesn't mean you're going to have a bad performance when you compete.

00:43:52.460 Yeah. One thing I tell I've started, especially, you know, coming away from that experience in 2017 that I tell the runners I work with all the time is that you should only judge your fitness.

00:44:03.940 And if you want your running ability by your best workouts, because you cannot perform better in a workout than your fitness allows, right? Like there are no flukes. Like you can't just pull it out of thin air. Like if you, if you're able to perform at a certain level on a given day, it's because you're fit enough to do so.

00:44:25.360 So there's no other possible reason, but there are, there's a myriad of reasons where you could underperform in a given workout. So, you know, if you have a sort of like a mediocre workout or lay an egg, it could be because you slept poorly last night, or you, you're, you know, developing a little bit of a bug or, or simply because you're a little bit tired from previous training.

00:44:45.140 So that's like that stuff, you know, you just need to brush it off. And as long as like your last really good workout, isn't too far in the past, then, then, then judge your fitness by that and know you're okay. And don't worry about the, the mediocre workouts.

00:45:01.200 Well, what do pros do differently? Say they're at a competition and they got a, like, they're, they're feeling uncomfortable. They're hurting and they've got to put in that last kick so they can, you know, perform, like get, do the best they can. What do pros do differently to dig deep during competition?

00:45:19.960 There's some variety there, but Ben, he says, he has this term he likes, he got it from his high school coach, the champion's mindset. And he said, champions in those moments,

00:45:31.200 they relish it. They view it as their time. It sort of reminds me a bit of that, that old joke. You know, if, if you and a friend are being chased by a bear, you don't have to be faster than the bear. You just have to be faster than your friend, you know, like running hurts, you know, like long distance running races are, they're suffer fest. They're very, very uncomfortable. And that's true for everyone. And, you know, there are instincts in all of us that recoil from, you know, subjecting ourselves to that kind of misery.

00:46:00.540 But the champions, their attitude is not like this sucks. I wish it didn't suck so much. Their attitude is if I can suffer just a little bit more than these chumps around me, it's my race. And so that's their mindset. It's like, they don't have to, they don't have to like it. They just have to just embrace it just a little bit more than the people around them. 0.99

00:46:24.620 Well, Matt, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:46:27.940 Anywhere books are sold, I'm told anyway, by the publisher. And for more about me and my other books, my training plans, there's my personal website, mattfitzgerald.org and my business website, 8020endurance.com.

00:46:43.640 Fantastic. Well, Matt Fitzgerald, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:46:46.020 You bet.

00:46:47.020 My guest today was Matt Fitzgerald. He is a co-author of the book, Run Like a Pro, Even If You're Slow. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about Matt's work at his website, mattfitzgerald.org.

00:46:57.200 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash run, where you can find links to resources and we delve deeper into this topic.

00:47:09.660 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of.

00:47:18.940 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on Stitcher Premium.

00:47:22.260 Head over to StitcherPremium.com, sign up, use code MANLESS at checkout for a free month trial.

00:47:26.620 Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android iOS and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast.

00:47:31.440 And if you have it done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

00:47:35.580 It helps out a lot.

00:47:36.420 If you've done that already, thank you.

00:47:37.840 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it.

00:47:41.320 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:47:42.860 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:47:44.120 Reminds you on this AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:47:47.340 We'll see you next time.

The Art of Manliness - March 21, 2022

Run Like a Pro (Even If You're Slow)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript