The Art of Manliness - Set Your Future Self Up for Success

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.260 As you move through time, you exist as a present self who makes decisions and in-between self

00:00:16.320 who should carry out those decisions and a future self who will benefit from those decisions.

00:00:21.140 Yet as we all know, in-between self often fails to follow through on what present self resolves,

00:00:25.600 leaving future self pretty bummed out. The solution to this dilemma, my guest says,

00:00:30.680 is for your present self to become much better friends with your future self.

00:00:34.720 His name is Hal Hirschfeld and he's a professor of marketing, behavioral decision-making,

00:00:38.920 and psychology and the author of Your Future Self. Hal and I spend the first part of our

00:00:43.820 conversation taking a really interesting philosophical dive into what the self even is.

00:00:48.680 We talk about why your future self can feel like a stranger, why it's hard to know what he'll be like,

00:00:52.960 and what this dilemma has to do with becoming a vampire. We then discuss how building a stronger

00:00:57.780 connection with your future self makes your present self more willing to help him and how

00:01:01.800 you can become closer to your future self by engaging in mental time traveling. Hal shares a

00:01:06.220 couple techniques that can facilitate this mental time travel, three mistakes people make in taking

00:01:10.720 this cognitive trip, how to start making tomorrow better today. After the show's over,

00:01:15.880 check out our show notes at aom.is slash future self.

00:01:22.960 All right. Hal Hirschfeld, welcome to the show.

00:01:35.900 Hey, thanks so much, Brad. I'm happy to be here.

00:01:38.260 So you are a professor of marketing and behavioral decision-making,

00:01:41.800 and you've spent your career studying how we think about our future selves and this idea of mental

00:01:48.240 time travel. What led you down this research path? Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of that sounds

00:01:54.100 like a lot of words thrown together there. But, you know, my PhD is in psychology, in experimental

00:01:59.520 psychology. And what that means is I like to study how people think about their world, how they make

00:02:03.100 decisions. And honestly, while I was in grad schools around the time of the 2008 financial crisis,

00:02:09.280 and I started to get really interested in why are people having a hard time making the same

00:02:14.760 decisions that they say that they want to make. And that led me to start thinking about,

00:02:21.300 you know, maybe it's not necessarily elements of the decision itself, but elements of the way that

00:02:26.860 people think about themselves sort of unfolding through time. And it was really that seed that

00:02:31.760 got planted that led me to study these things. And I'm at a business school in a way because that

00:02:38.620 lets me focus on sort of applied questions. Okay, so you're interested in looking at why we might say

00:02:46.360 something like, hey, I want to do this to lose weight, or hey, I want to make this investing

00:02:51.580 decision. So I'll be better off in the future. But then we don't do that.

00:02:56.900 Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, I don't start with the assumption that, you know, more people should be

00:03:00.800 doing x, y and z thing, you know, more people should save more or eat healthier or whatever, you know,

00:03:06.340 that may be true. But it's the place where I start is, you know, if someone says, man, I really want

00:03:10.760 to be exercising more, and I just can't seem to do it, I really want to be saving more, and I just

00:03:14.900 can't seem to do it, or whatever that thing is, you know, off my phone, that gap between intentions

00:03:20.080 and behavior, that's where I really get interested. And that's where I like to study behavior.

00:03:25.720 And this is where this idea of mental time travel comes from. When we are making goals,

00:03:29.600 we are having to think about ourselves as, you know, present self and future self.

00:03:34.240 Yeah, exactly. You know, when we are sort of thinking ahead, and thinking about what some

00:03:40.760 ideal outcome is, we are really thinking about ourselves right now. And we're thinking about

00:03:44.840 that eventual version of us, like who will be sort of the, you know, almost ideal version,

00:03:49.900 if you will, that, you know, exists at some later point in time.

00:03:54.100 Gotcha. So before we dig into your research about mental time travel, and our future selves,

00:03:59.400 I think we have to get philosophical first, and talk about what a self even is. And I think most

00:04:05.680 of us think we know what a self is, you know, ourselves feel continuous, and permanent, and

00:04:12.800 singular. But you make the case that the self might not be as continuous as it seems. So what is the

00:04:19.060 self? Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think there's a lot of us that probably would say,

00:04:23.480 you know, yeah, I am me, like, I've kind of been me. And sure, some things have changed over time,

00:04:29.280 but I am essentially the same person. But then you start thinking about it, and it becomes really

00:04:34.680 complicated, right? It's like, your name might have changed, you know, the way you look might change,

00:04:39.760 like your friends might change, your interests might change, even your personality might change a

00:04:44.440 little bit. And then when you start sort of like, stepping back and figuring out like, who am I over

00:04:49.440 time, it becomes really hard to say, like, I am one person. And so the sort of philosophical notion

00:04:56.340 that I really subscribe to is that maybe a better way to describe it is that we're sort of a collection

00:05:02.560 of separate selves. Now, I mean, you asked this great question, which is like, well, what is the self

00:05:08.460 even, you know, and I think of the self. And I think psychologists think of the self as a kind of a bundle

00:05:13.380 of things. It's, it's different attributes. It's my preferences and emotions and feelings and my

00:05:17.960 connections and my, you know, quote, unquote, identity, all of those things and kind of a swirl.

00:05:24.100 But all those things change over time. And so it really does seem like a more apt description to

00:05:30.300 say that we're sort of a series of almost separate selves. Yeah, this goes back all the way to ancient

00:05:36.560 Greece. There's that idea of the ship of Theseus. Exactly. Yeah, it's like this famous ship. And then

00:05:41.620 they sort of made it like a memorial. But over the years, they had to keep replacing the parts,

00:05:46.640 because it was wearing down. And at some point, the philosophers are asking, well, is it still the

00:05:51.100 ship of Theseus? And people are like, well, yeah, it is. And it's like, well, it's completely just new

00:05:54.720 parts. And, you know, psychologists and philosophers have applied this to humans. Human beings were

00:05:59.840 constantly creating new cells. Our cells are being replaced. So you can say, well, is our self the

00:06:06.340 body? Because if that's the case, then our body's changed. So maybe we're not the same. They're like,

00:06:11.180 well, if it's not the body, then they said, well, maybe it's our memories. But that gets tricky,

00:06:15.700 too, because we've had a podcast guest talking about how our memories can change based on

00:06:21.400 experiences we have in the present. So we might experience something now that change how we think

00:06:27.900 about the past. And I was like, well, maybe it's not our memories.

00:06:31.340 Right. And I mean, the memory explanation, by the way, is it's really interesting, because I think

00:06:37.000 it's on the surface intriguing. You say, well, maybe the self is this sort of collection of what I

00:06:43.040 remember. And then you stop for a second, you say, you know, do you remember what you had for

00:06:46.660 lunch two days ago? Like, no. Well, is that not you? And as you said, memory is, it's fallible,

00:06:54.060 and it's constructed, and it changes. So that doesn't really seem quite right.

00:06:58.960 And then, you know, my wife, I think of myself as myself, and it hasn't, I mean, I know I've changed,

00:07:04.840 but I still think of like, I'm this, I'm Brett, I've existed since I was, you know, since 1982.

00:07:11.700 But I'm thinking about my wife, like my wife fell in love and married 22 year old Brett.

00:07:16.680 And I think, I think she still thinks she's married to the same Brett. So what is it about me when she

00:07:21.860 interacts with me? And I, but she knows that I've changed over the years. What makes her think I'm

00:07:26.260 the same, even though I've changed over the years?

00:07:30.020 Yeah, I love this question, because it, it really becomes almost existential on some level. You know,

00:07:36.200 we want permanence to some degree, right? Like we want to see our partners and our best

00:07:41.680 friends. And I mean, to some extent, even our parents as occupying these sort of, you know,

00:07:47.600 stable conceptions of a person. But, you know, I think when push comes to shove, I'm sure your

00:07:55.120 wife could point to many things about you that have changed. Now, my way of sort of reading this

00:08:03.020 really has been influenced by psychologist Nina Strominger. And she has this fascinating research

00:08:09.960 that suggests that when we look at other people, the way that we think of them as being, you know,

00:08:17.100 quote unquote, stable over time, what we think about really is what she and her collaborators call

00:08:24.180 the essential moral self or essential moral traits. The idea here is that, I don't know, Brett,

00:08:30.700 you know, maybe you're like, a little bit sarcastic, but ultimately kind, whatever, whatever sort of like

00:08:36.000 blend of those kind of like core aspects of your personality are. If the surface level things

00:08:43.140 change, but those remain relatively constant, that allows somebody to say, okay, you are still Brett.

00:08:52.100 That's the essence of Brett, right? And my bet, not knowing your wife, but my bet would be

00:08:58.580 that she could point to those things and say, that's the same now as it was when he was 22.

00:09:03.700 Okay. So yeah, there's some moral qualities. So kindness, compassion, whether you're polite.

00:09:10.440 Yeah. And that research about that made me laugh out loud. Nina, she asked this guy,

00:09:16.020 what are some of the ways your wife could change? And you would say, she's no longer the person I 1.00

00:09:20.120 married. And then he, the guy responded quickly. Hmm. I guess she became a bitch. 1.00

00:09:25.580 Exactly. It's, it's kind of funny because part of that conversation, she asked, you know, 1.00

00:09:33.740 what about you? What would change in you to make your wife say that you're no longer the person 0.99

00:09:38.220 she married? And the person Nina was talking to as an artist who said, well, I guess if I suddenly

00:09:44.760 became bad at art. And it's, it's funny because there's this little asymmetry there. When we think

00:09:49.900 about ourselves, we think, I don't know, it must be these sort of things I do. But when we think about

00:09:54.400 others, it's, it's not what they do. It's who they are really deep inside that sort of core. Right.

00:10:00.720 And if you were kind all your life and then suddenly became this monster, I'd be like,

00:10:04.780 that's not the same person.

00:10:07.320 Okay. So the takeaway from all this thing, like what is a self, it helps us understand there is

00:10:12.960 something there that we, that helps us think of ourselves as a continuous permanent self and

00:10:19.240 allows others to think of us as continuous and permanent. However, there are things about

00:10:25.080 ourselves that means that we have multiple selves. There's a past self. We might even be different

00:10:30.700 selves in different situations. I think people might've experienced that when I know I've experienced

00:10:35.760 that when I connect with old high school friends. Yes.

00:10:40.360 I immediately fall into, you know, 1999, 2000 Brett. And I'm making jokes that my wife,

00:10:49.520 like what's going on? I don't understand. Like you're kind of, I don't, I've never seen this

00:10:52.840 Brett before. It's because I have this groove with those friends. So the self can be situational

00:10:57.800 too. Yeah, absolutely. I totally relate to that particular experience. I remember going back from my

00:11:04.100 20th high school reunion, you know, with my wife and we're sitting around and it's like instantly like

00:11:10.480 1997, Hal showed up and, and, and it is, you know, there's elements there that, that sort of

00:11:18.200 crossover, but there's also elements where you say, I'm not really that same bundle, you know,

00:11:24.380 now that I was then. Okay. So let's talk about this mental time travel component. So thanks to our

00:11:30.360 memories, maybe keeping a journal or looking back on old social media posts, we can have a pretty

00:11:36.480 good idea of what our past self was like. Again, our present self can modify that, right? We might,

00:11:42.740 we do this thing where we, I know I've done this too. And I've seen other people where we try to

00:11:47.220 explain the past in a way that helps us make sense of the present, even though you're kind of doing some

00:11:54.020 mental gymnastics to make that make sense. But we can have an idea of what our past self was like,

00:11:58.960 because we have documentation or maybe just memory, but you argue that it's really hard to know what

00:12:04.820 our future self will be like. Why is that? Yeah. So part of the issue here is that our future selves

00:12:12.960 are sort of inherently uncertain and our future selves change as, as we go through changes and in

00:12:22.400 ways that we can't fully anticipate. And then you have this mental exercise that a philosopher came up with

00:12:28.620 about thinking about becoming a vampire. Yeah. Yeah. What can thinking about becoming a vampire

00:12:34.740 teaches about how hard it is to know our future selves? So yeah, this is LA Paul and she had this

00:12:41.800 great analogy, which was essentially, you know, imagine you have this opportunity to become a

00:12:47.040 vampire. And she says, all your friends are doing it and they tell you it's great. You're going to love

00:12:53.080 it. Like they, they think they know you. They say, you know, you like staying up late at night and like

00:12:57.700 trying exotic foods. And that's what it's like to become a vampire. But there's this catch, which is

00:13:02.880 that once you become a vampire, you can't undo it. You're sort of always a vampire and you can't really

00:13:10.400 know what it's like to become a vampire until you become a vampire. Now, I mean, it sounds a little

00:13:15.980 bit sort of ludicrous and almost sci-fi in a cheesy way. But when I first heard her talk about this, for

00:13:23.420 what it's worth, I was at a little small conference and we had found out my wife was pregnant like only

00:13:29.780 days before. And I'm sitting there listening to her, LA Paul, talk about this, you know, vampire

00:13:36.020 problem. And I started instantly going down this sort of like anxiety spiral of, you know, oh my God, this is

00:13:42.160 kind of the same thing as becoming a parent, right? You know, my friends are telling me it's, it's like

00:13:46.340 meaningful and I'll like it, but I can't know what it's like until I'm actually doing it. Like as I'm

00:13:51.300 having this sort of spiral of anxiety, the professor LA Paul says, of course, this is just a thinly veiled

00:13:58.860 analogy to becoming a parent. I was like, ah, yes, this makes sense. But I thought it was so

00:14:04.960 interesting because it really highlights the sort of, you know, inherent unknowability of our future

00:14:11.100 selves that, you know, we go through these changes in our lives. We become parents, we move, we change

00:14:15.880 careers, we get married or divorced or any of these things. And those things change us in ways that we

00:14:22.400 can't anticipate. And once we do them, we're sort of now a slightly new and different version of

00:14:27.800 ourselves. Right. Becoming a parent not only changes, I mean, it changes how you think about other parts of

00:14:34.120 yourself, how you think about your career, how you think about your hobbies, how you think about

00:14:38.300 vacation. And so it is, it is hard. You can talk to people about what it's like to be a parent.

00:14:43.460 And as you said, you can kind of get an idea, but you don't really know how it's going to change you

00:14:48.960 and also change other decisions that you will make until you actually do it. I've noticed that with my

00:14:54.100 own life. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so true. Okay. So we have these different selves. We have a

00:15:00.200 past self that we can have a rough idea of what we are like. We have a present self. Then we have our

00:15:05.980 future self, which it's hard to know what our future self will like or want or need. So what

00:15:13.800 you've done with your research is you've actually, you've stuck people in MRI machines to see what

00:15:20.000 happens in their brains when they think about their future cells. So when you stick someone in MRI

00:15:26.240 and you ask them, like, hey, think about what you'll be like when you're 70. What happens? What's

00:15:32.420 going on in our brains? How do we perceive our future selves? Right. So one of the things we

00:15:36.640 know from what's called social neuroscience is that the brain can essentially distinguish between me

00:15:43.420 and, you know, somebody else. There's a certain pattern of activity that you see in what's called

00:15:47.840 the cortical midline structures when I think about me. And you see less of that activity when I think of

00:15:54.100 a stranger or somebody else. And so, you know, we put people in the scanner and we had them think

00:15:58.740 about themselves now and themselves in the future and another person now and another person in the

00:16:02.680 future. And what we find is if you look within those same regions, the regions that can kind of

00:16:09.080 distinguish between me and somebody else, what you see is a similar pattern for when we think about

00:16:15.400 our future selves. If I can put it more simply, the brain activity that comes about when we think of

00:16:20.800 our future selves, it looks more like the brain activity that comes about when we think about other

00:16:26.060 people in general, which is really fascinating because it suggests that in some ways our future

00:16:30.660 selves look like other people. Well, and one something you found too, and you've talked about

00:16:35.600 is, okay, when we think about other people, depending on how close they are to us, there's like an

00:16:42.620 activity that's different. So we think about someone like a stranger differently than we think about

00:16:48.740 our kids or our spouse. That's right. Other work has found that those self-other differences in the

00:16:54.540 brain. They're like exacerbated when I think about someone I don't know, but they're muted. The

00:17:01.400 differences are a lot smaller when I think about, say, my spouse or my kid or my parent, somebody who

00:17:07.320 I'm really close to, right? And so it suggests that not only is the brain coding for what's me and

00:17:12.140 what's not me, it's also coding for sort of closeness and similarity and connection as well.

00:17:17.080 So when someone's close to us, like a spouse or a kid, we actually, in a way, we incorporate them

00:17:21.860 into ourself. Like they're part of us, our identity. Yeah. You know, researchers have called

00:17:26.420 this the, you know, psychologists always have higher, higher level terms for things than we

00:17:31.220 need to, but they call it the inclusion of the other in the self. Basically saying, you know,

00:17:37.420 the people we love become a part of us. And then how we think of people, other people

00:17:42.360 affects what we'll do for them. So because we think of our family members, spouse, maybe close

00:17:49.400 friends as part of us, part of ourself, we're more willing to do things for them because

00:17:54.280 in effect, we're doing something for ourself. But then for strangers, we're less willing to

00:18:00.680 go out on a limb because they're not part of ourself. 0.89

00:18:04.760 Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, you know, it's, it's funny. You don't have to think too

00:18:08.180 hard about this, right? I mean, to, to really get it, you know, it's like if your kid or your

00:18:13.520 best friend or, you know, someone you're really close to is like, Hey man, can you help me this

00:18:17.960 weekend? We're in a bind and I really need somebody to help me like move all this stuff

00:18:21.800 out of my garage so that we can do whatever, you know, you would probably be like a little

00:18:25.880 annoyed because you have plans this weekend, but you would like, I don't know if they're

00:18:29.160 really close to you, you'd probably figure out like, yeah, let me see how I can help

00:18:31.780 you. And if, you know, somebody on the street stopped you and asked you the same question,

00:18:36.000 it's like, it's not that you're selfish, but of course you'd be like, I can't, you know,

00:18:39.700 I've got other things going on. You know, the, the reason that that is sort of

00:18:44.460 interesting, I think is if we think our future selves are kind of like those people that we

00:18:50.300 don't know, well now all of a sudden it makes sense why I wouldn't do things for their benefit.

00:18:56.000 You know, if I'm supposed to eat healthy, you know, for that guy's cholesterol levels

00:19:01.140 and that guy's, you know, waistline, well, I don't know. I think I'd kind of rather just

00:19:05.940 do the thing that satisfies me right now because who's, who, who is that guy anyway? I don't

00:19:10.640 know him. Okay. So yeah, this idea of the closeness of a person determines what we're

00:19:15.580 willing to do for them. We can apply this to how we think about our future selves. So the more

00:19:20.060 distant or disconnected we feel from our future self, the less likely we'll be willing to do

00:19:26.120 things for our future selves, like exercise or save money or things like that.

00:19:31.200 That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

00:19:33.960 And I think, doesn't Jerry Seinfeld have a bit about that?

00:19:36.540 Yeah. Yes, he does. He, he's like, man, like he's always ahead of the curve. And like,

00:19:42.300 I think he is deeply philosophical and he has this whole bit where he says, you know,

00:19:46.980 I stay up late at night because I'm night guy. You know, what about getting up after five hours

00:19:51.820 sleep? Like, that's not my problem. That's morning guy's problem, you know? And he has this great

00:19:57.740 sort of solution. He says like, the only thing morning guy can do is to try to oversleep often enough

00:20:02.320 so that day guy loses his job and then night guy has no money to go out anymore, which is like a

00:20:07.340 perfect, a perfect solution. But it's, I mean, I feel like it's a really deep joke because

00:20:14.780 it suggests that there can be these real lack of emotional connections between selves and that lack

00:20:22.860 of connection or presence of it can dictate the things that we do. In his case, you know, staying up

00:20:28.260 too late, right? In my case, it might be snacking, you know, at night or having like an extra glass of

00:20:33.420 wine when I said I wasn't going to. And what you've done with your research is you looked at the,

00:20:39.000 the distance of how we think about our future selves. And you're saying, okay, well, if we think

00:20:44.520 of our distant future selves as basically strangers, right? And because of that, we're not willing to do

00:20:50.160 much for them in the future. Your hunch was, well, are there things we can do to strengthen our

00:20:56.940 connection to our future selves to improve outcomes like in health, money and psychological

00:21:03.400 well-being? So what is, what is your research found on this? Can you strengthen your connection

00:21:07.160 to your future self? And if so, what are the things that you can do to do that?

00:21:12.500 Absolutely. So yeah, first off, you're right. The sort of degree of connection matters for these types

00:21:18.100 of behaviors that you've been talking about. And then you have this question of like, can you

00:21:21.880 strengthen that relationship? And you know, the short answer is yes. The long answer is that there's

00:21:26.860 a lot of different ways to do it. And they work with sort of like varying degrees of success.

00:21:31.740 One that works nicely is to write a letter to and then from your future self. That's a,

00:21:36.840 a newer technique that Yuta Shishima and Ann Wilson came up with. And I think it's a really

00:21:42.620 sort of clever exercise because it forces you to step into the shoes of your future self.

00:21:48.740 Again, there, it's not that I'm just writing a letter to my future self, but then I'm

00:21:52.300 turning around and then writing back to me right now.

00:21:56.480 I guess what you're trying to do with that is you're trying to kind of guess what it's

00:22:00.280 going to be like to be a vampire in a way.

00:22:03.380 That's a great way to put it. Yeah.

00:22:04.960 That's a great way to put it. And I think, you know, I would go a step beyond what the

00:22:10.920 research has done and sort of say like, yeah, I mean, it may be helpful to recognize that we

00:22:16.380 can't know. Like, I just don't know what it's like to be a vampire until I become one. And

00:22:21.840 I think that's okay. If we can sort of get past that, then the exercise of stepping into

00:22:28.320 future me's shoes will ultimately be helpful to sort of strengthen that connection between selves.

00:22:35.580 And then another tactic, I think maybe people listening to this podcast have heard about,

00:22:38.940 there's a, maybe even experienced this. You've had people with virtual reality,

00:22:43.220 see what they would look like when they're old and how that affects decisions they'll make for

00:22:48.260 their future self. What's going on there? Yeah. I mean, so essentially the idea here is

00:22:52.740 we can use these age progression apps to show you what you look like or a version of what you look

00:22:58.820 like. Now we've, you know, used these sorts of programs and had people sort of interact with

00:23:06.140 their future selves. We've done this in virtual reality. We've done this online. We've done this,

00:23:09.720 you know, through emails, essentially campaigns like that. And, you know, what we find is sort of

00:23:15.280 across the board, there are these effects where the people who are exposed to these images are a

00:23:21.480 little bit more likely to, to save or to act ethically. You know, the, the most recent version

00:23:27.020 of this, we've did a study with about 50,000 customers with a Mexican bank and half of them got

00:23:33.520 these opportunities to see their future selves and half of them didn't. And the people who did were

00:23:37.520 a little more likely to make a contribution to their long-term savings accounts, their retirement

00:23:42.880 accounts. Now there's a lot of this sort of thing available now, like you can go on Face app or

00:23:49.080 Snapchat or aging booth. I think there's a lot of them. Just because I've seen an image of my future

00:23:56.180 self doesn't mean I'm all of a sudden going to live my life differently. Right. But in the right context,

00:24:00.900 if that future self image is something I look at and think about and sort of converse with

00:24:07.640 while I'm then also in the mindset of making some sort of decision, you know, whether it's

00:24:14.660 signing up for a nutritionist or thinking about my long-term savings or whatever it might be that

00:24:19.240 that's when I think these sorts of vivid examples and exposures can make a difference.

00:24:24.980 Okay. So what you're doing with these techniques, whether it's writing a letter to your future self

00:24:28.100 and having your future self write a letter to present you or looking at a aged picture of

00:24:34.100 yourself, what you're trying to do is close the gap between your present self and your future self.

00:24:40.100 And then by doing that, we are more likely to follow through on good decisions for ourselves,

00:24:47.940 whether that's exercise, saving more, not procrastinating, being just a good person because

00:24:54.120 we feel our future self is us.

00:24:58.120 That is exactly right. I think that's a well, we'll actually hold on. Let me just make a little

00:25:02.040 modification there. Sure. I'm not sure that it's necessarily because it's that we feel our future

00:25:06.120 self is us, but rather because we now feel closer, feel closer to our future self and we can like

00:25:11.800 better envision them. Right. So I do actually think, you know, it's like some of this, I don't want

00:25:18.120 to like split hairs here, but it's useful to know like why these things happen. I think there's some

00:25:23.220 debate still about, you know, is it because it just simply makes that future self more vivid and

00:25:28.080 therefore more emotional? Is it also because it's making that future self sort of feel closer to us?

00:25:33.620 I think at the end of the day, it's still always going to be another person. Just like, you know,

00:25:38.240 at the end of the day, your wife is always going to be another person. But what can vary is,

00:25:43.160 you know, how close you feel to her. Right. And the closer you are, the more likely you'll probably

00:25:48.760 do things that are going to help her. We're going to take a quick break for your word from our

00:25:52.960 sponsors. And now back to the show. We do this mental time travel stuff all the time, but there's

00:26:01.640 things that we do when we do this mental time travel that can make it less effective. And you talk

00:26:07.860 about there's three ways we can mess up our mental time travel. And the first one is you miss

00:26:13.020 the flight in the first place. So how do we miss our flight?

00:26:17.100 Right. So I mean, like, you know, to back up the mental time travels, really, like you said,

00:26:20.900 it's just what happens when we step into the future or back to the past in our minds. And by the way,

00:26:27.260 we're really good at this. We can do this in super sophisticated ways. I can step to the future and

00:26:31.840 think back to now and step into the past. And I mean, I can do all of this in the span of,

00:26:37.380 you know, seconds back and forth, back and forth. But even though we have this sort of machinery to do

00:26:42.440 this, we often aren't great at we make these mistakes. And so, yeah, in the book, I sort of

00:26:47.040 organize them into different categories. The first one, I call it missing our flight. I mean, this is

00:26:52.480 just how I think I think about things in analogies. Sometimes I think, you know, maybe it's easier to

00:26:57.380 just describe it straightforward. But this one works for me, which is like, I feel like everyone's had

00:27:01.840 this experience of, you know, you get to the airport, and you're like, Oh, I've got a little time

00:27:05.540 before my flight. Let me go get a drink at the bar or, you know, sit in the corner and read a book or

00:27:10.940 whatever it is. Now, I've never had it happen. But I've had it almost happen where you get so

00:27:16.020 engrossed in the thing you're doing that beer at the bar. You look up and you realize, Oh, my God,

00:27:21.220 you know, they've been calling my name, and I've missed my flight. And the reason that I bring this

00:27:27.020 up in the space of sort of mental time travel is it's, it's sort of like being so focused on the

00:27:32.940 present that I look up and realize that I've completely missed thinking about the future in any deep

00:27:37.240 way. And, you know, that we do this sort of thing all the time when we act in ways that deeply

00:27:43.880 prioritize the future over the present. It's not as if we don't know the future won't come. You know,

00:27:49.880 when we go to the airport, it's not as if I've just completely forgotten about the flight. It's just

00:27:54.300 that it occupies such a minor place in the back of my mind. And I get so engrossed in what's happening

00:27:59.180 right in front of me, that I act as if I've missed it entirely.

00:28:02.020 Right. And we do that for various reasons. One is when we experience the present,

00:28:08.020 the emotions that we experience or the feelings are more intense because we're actually experiencing

00:28:12.160 them. And then when we think about the emotions we might feel in the future, well, it's hard to do,

00:28:16.920 right? It's hard to think about what you'll feel like when you're a vampire. And so you're thinking,

00:28:20.780 well, I'm enjoying this late night show. This is great right now. I'm enjoying it. I'm going to keep

00:28:25.680 doing this. And you don't think about, well, how is, how is tomorrow Brett going to feel about this?

00:28:30.520 No, that's not, I'm not going to worry. I can't, I can't feel that. So I'm just not going to do

00:28:33.700 anything about it.

00:28:35.260 Exactly. And it's like, you said it, there's the uncertainty of the future. And there's also just

00:28:39.980 like the feelings right now feel more intense than the things worth, you know, anticipate

00:28:45.840 feeling in the book. And I like quoting her a lot, Liz Dunn, one of my collaborators. She has this

00:28:52.700 great line in one of her papers. The paper is not even about this concept, but she just has this line

00:28:56.700 in there. And it really stuck with me, which is the present acts as a magnifying glass for our

00:29:02.420 emotions. And I think it's such a smart way to think about how powerful the present is when we're

00:29:11.420 talking about our feelings.

00:29:13.160 Okay. So the first way we can mess up mental time traveling is we miss the flight by thinking too

00:29:17.760 much about the present, thinking too much about what we're experiencing now and not thinking about

00:29:22.880 what future self will want. Another way we can mess up our mental time traveling is what you call poor

00:29:28.780 trip planning. So how do we plan our mental time travel trips poorly?

00:29:33.720 Yeah. I mean, so this would be, I'm going to like, just like kind of lean into the,

00:29:36.820 you know, airport plane travel metaphors, but essentially this is the, you know,

00:29:41.820 I've planned my trip. Like I know I'm going to Chicago next week. And then I realized that I,

00:29:47.380 I've, I haven't done really anything other than book the flight and maybe the hotel. And then I get

00:29:51.600 there and I'm like, well, now what am I going to do? And this is, this is the version of,

00:29:56.440 of mental time travel where we think a little bit about the future, but we do so in such a surface

00:30:02.340 level way that by the time we get to the future, it's looks maybe different than the one that we

00:30:07.120 had envisioned. So, you know, as an example, I think procrastination fits perfectly into this

00:30:12.500 bucket. It's like, I'm thinking ahead. I'd say to myself, next week is going to be the week

00:30:19.640 that I finally take care of like putting in this paperwork that I've got to put in for

00:30:24.700 work and blah, blah, blah. But I'm not really thinking deeply about the future because if I was,

00:30:30.460 I'd realize that, you know, if I don't want to do that thing now, future me isn't going to want

00:30:35.200 to do it either, you know? So it might make sense to not compound the problem and just take care of

00:30:39.540 it right now. But the gist is that I'm not really deeply thinking ahead to the future. And even

00:30:46.320 though I know it exists, it's not planned for in a more than surface level way.

00:30:51.480 Gotcha. So you're thinking about your future self, but you're not doing it in a very deep or

00:30:55.880 profound way. And as a consequence, you might make decisions that you think I'm doing something for

00:31:00.780 my future self, but really it's not helping them that much.

00:31:05.080 Exactly. Exactly.

00:31:06.520 The one that you talked about there that really resonated with me is the yes, damn effect. I think 0.99

00:31:11.860 everyone's experienced that. And this is what it's called. Like the psychologists, they call it the

00:31:15.620 yes, damn effect. That's right. 0.99

00:31:17.380 What is the yes, damn effect? And how does that constitute poor trip planning? 0.97

00:31:21.720 Yeah. It's when you get asked to do something and it's not going to occur for another two months,

00:31:27.740 three months, four months, whatever it is. You look ahead at your calendar and you say,

00:31:31.300 yeah, it's wide open. Yeah, sure. I'll do it. And then, you know, the time goes by and you get

00:31:38.500 there and it's the week of, and you realize I have, you know, agreed to do this presentation at

00:31:44.600 work. I've agreed to whatever the flavor of event is. Like, I'm sure we can all conjure up our own

00:31:50.820 idiosyncratic ones. And you say, damn it, I really don't feel like doing this. And so they, you know, 0.97

00:31:57.560 psychologists call it the yes, damn effect. And the issue with this is what I'm doing is I am 0.99

00:32:03.780 thinking ahead to the future. I'm saying, yeah, future me will do that thing. And then I get there

00:32:09.200 and realize that's not really something I'd want to do. Now, there are cases that there's nuance

00:32:15.060 here, right? Because sometimes the only way to get us to sign up for something is, is to put it

00:32:21.180 distant enough out in the future. And then, you know, some, there's versions of these things that

00:32:25.160 we do, you know, whether it's like agreeing to coach our kids team, like maybe I don't really want

00:32:30.200 to do that this week. It's a lot of work, but next, you know, next year, sure, I'll do it. And

00:32:34.620 like, ultimately that could be a really good experience. And I wouldn't have signed up for

00:32:37.940 it if it was occurring next week. But there's many other cases where I unfairly sign my future

00:32:46.520 self up to do the very things that I don't want to do now. Right. Because you don't think about

00:32:51.560 future self having issues, right? So your calendar might look open. You think future self, man,

00:32:57.000 the sky's the limit for future self. He's got so much free time, but then once future self arrives,

00:33:02.300 all the problems of the present are there. So you've got school that you're dropping your kids

00:33:06.820 off. You've got fires to put out at work. You've got other responsibilities that your present self

00:33:12.280 wasn't thinking about when you committed future self to make that decision. That's where the yes,

00:33:16.880 damn effect. You're like, yeah, it sounds great. But then when future self that you thought about 0.99

00:33:20.520 finally becomes present self, you're like, oh damn, this, why did I do this? This, this stinks. 0.99

00:33:25.160 Exactly. I think that's exactly right. And I think one way you can counter that one thing that I've 0.91

00:33:30.480 done is if you're being asked to commit to something way in the future, like months or maybe 0.96

00:33:35.500 a year, one way you can counter the yes, damn effect is ask yourself if this thing was going 0.83

00:33:40.420 to be tomorrow, would I still do it? And if the answer is no, then, well, maybe I don't commit to 0.95

00:33:46.880 that. I mean, it's again, there's nuance. You might not do that in all situations, but it's a good way to

00:33:51.900 figure out if you, you actually want to do the thing. I think that's exactly right. And it's,

00:33:57.380 you know, it's, I think the beauty of that is that it's so hard to step into the shoes of our future

00:34:01.720 selves, but it's easier to live in the shoes of our present self. And if present self doesn't want

00:34:06.560 to do it, you know, it's a good indicator that future me might want not want to do it either.

00:34:10.860 Right. So you're closing that gap between present and future self by doing that.

00:34:14.720 Okay. So we can mess up mental time traveling by just poor planning. Another one is once we're on

00:34:22.160 the trip, we pack the wrong clothes. What do you mean by packing the wrong clothes for our mental

00:34:27.520 time travel trip? Right. So this is like a little bit different. So, I mean, we've probably all have

00:34:32.580 this experience imagining, you know, it's like the winter time I'm living in a cold weather place.

00:34:37.240 I'm in Chicago. We're going to, you know, go to, I don't know, Miami or something like this.

00:34:41.000 And I'm thinking ahead, I'm packing my bag and I'm packing my clothes. And I say, you

00:34:48.160 know, I know it's going to be warm there, but it's really hard to shake the feeling that

00:34:51.380 I'm freezing right now. I should probably throw some sweaters in just in case. And, you

00:34:56.680 know, is it a mistake? Well, you know, if I get there and I don't have enough of the

00:35:01.280 warm weather clothes and I've got all this other stuff in my suitcase that is taking up

00:35:05.680 room that I'm not going to use, well, there's a little bit of a mistake there. But when you think

00:35:09.340 about time travel, the gist here is that I convince myself that I'm planning ahead for

00:35:15.440 the future. But in doing so, what I'm really, really doing is using my present day emotions

00:35:20.760 and projecting them almost unfairly on my future self. And the reason why I say that this is

00:35:26.180 really problem and really pernicious is because I've convinced myself that I'm doing something

00:35:32.180 good for my future self when in reality, I may actually not be appreciating the way that

00:35:39.200 he will differ from me, the way that he'll change. If you want another sort of example

00:35:44.000 or sort of analogy, it's like getting gifts for your spouse. You know, nobody wants to get

00:35:51.040 the gift that the gift giver wanted. You know, it's like if I say to myself, what my wife really

00:35:56.800 wants is that new Nintendo switch. It's like, no, that's what I want. You know, it's not really

00:36:02.980 fair to her in the same way as if I use my present day feelings and emotions and project

00:36:08.200 them onto my future self. It's not really fair to him.

00:36:11.760 Yeah. So what you're doing, you're thinking about your future self, you're trying to do

00:36:14.520 some mental time traveling, but you're thinking going back to that vampire analogy, you're thinking

00:36:19.440 that being a vampire is going to be like what it's like being you now, but that's not actually

00:36:25.240 what's going to happen. I really like that. I hadn't put it quite that way. And I think you're

00:36:29.620 exactly right. It's like, you know, if I sort of think like, I'm sure he'll want to, you know,

00:36:35.580 sleep at night and, and, and wake up early in the morning because I do. And let me arrange things for

00:36:41.480 him so that that happens. It would be a mistake because it turns out once you become a vampire,

00:36:46.220 that's not what you like. And then another thing that causes us to, you know, pack the wrong clothes,

00:36:51.600 it's this idea in psychology called the end of history illusion. What is that?

00:36:56.560 Yeah. The end of history illusion. This is, um, Jordi Quadbach is the original author on this work.

00:37:01.940 The idea with this is that I think that I've somehow become the sort of fully baked version

00:37:07.260 of myself now and that moving forward into the future, I'll change a little bit, but not that

00:37:12.040 much. In other words, the end of history illusion is recognizing that I've changed from the past to the

00:37:16.480 present, but then failing to see that I'll continue to change moving from the present to the future.

00:37:21.960 Now, the reason that that's problematic is that we do in fact change from the present to the future,

00:37:28.320 probably as much as we've changed from the past to the present. And that that's really hard to

00:37:32.860 grapple with because we say, no, no, no, no, that can't be like, I've, I've changed so much from,

00:37:37.480 from then to now. I can't continue this way. And the reality is that we will, but we don't like to

00:37:43.860 see that because it sort of suggests that, you know, we're more malleable than we like to think.

00:37:48.620 It's also a problem when I make decisions and plans for a future self that limit his ability

00:37:57.140 to change his mind, that sort of lock him into something in a way that he might not particularly

00:38:03.880 like.

00:38:04.260 What are some examples that you've come across where people have done that?

00:38:08.640 So I think a good example of this is career planning. Sometimes we can get sort of locked

00:38:14.640 into something or we say, this is what we want because this is what I want right now. And then

00:38:19.040 later on we say, I should keep doing this because, you know, past me planned it. We also see this on a

00:38:25.300 smaller level of, you know, some researchers have found, you know, taking on projects. I might take on a

00:38:32.000 really big project and be super excited about it in the early days and convince myself that I'll

00:38:38.320 be able to maintain that level of effort and excitement and, you know, passion, if you will.

00:38:45.280 When in reality, those things may wane and change so much so that I won't be able to see the project

00:38:51.080 through to completion because I no longer have the sort of inclination or energy or will to do it.

00:38:56.020 I suspect this is something that happens in the startup world quite a bit because early on,

00:39:02.160 that's the most exciting period of time. But we may end up biting off more than we can chew because

00:39:07.900 we sort of unfairly think that future versions of us will be able to continue to maintain the same

00:39:13.780 level of sort of drive and effort and work that the early versions of us did.

00:39:19.780 Okay. So when we think about our future self, we often think of them as like another person,

00:39:24.900 a distant person. And as a consequence, we're less likely to do things for future self because we

00:39:32.600 think, well, that's another person. And then you have all these biases that cause us to do that,

00:39:36.960 whether it's being too focused on the present or not thinking about correctly of what our future self

00:39:43.400 will actually be like and things like that. And so there's the things you've talked about that you

00:39:47.440 can sort of close the gap between future self and present self, write letters to your future self,

00:39:52.900 and then have future self, write letters to your present self, or look at an aged picture of

00:39:58.880 yourself. But again, you don't just look at it. It's not like you can just fire up TikTok and look at

00:40:04.220 what you look like when you're 80 and you'll suddenly start exercising and saving for retirement.

00:40:10.780 Maybe you do that when you're deciding whether to start a retirement account or whether to save

00:40:16.700 money that might help. Besides those two things, you've also researched different commitment

00:40:22.220 devices we can use so that when we think about our future self and we're like, yeah, future self

00:40:27.760 wants a robust retirement account. Future self wants to be 25 pounds lighter. Present self is going to

00:40:33.840 commit to that. I'm going to help future self out because future self is me. But then you also highlight

00:40:38.380 there's commitment devices you can do to ensure that present self continues to do those things

00:40:43.860 to help future self out. I know we're doing a lot of mental time travel right there when I was

00:40:48.660 describing that. But so yeah, what are some commitment devices that can help ensure that we do good

00:40:53.100 things for future selves once we make the commitment to help future self out? Yeah. So the gist here is

00:41:00.800 right. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to get it too complicated, but it's like, there's this

00:41:04.760 version of me right now that wants to do something well. I want to, you know, not snack at night.

00:41:09.480 There's this future version of me that wants to look back and say, yeah, I did it right. I didn't

00:41:14.060 snack at night. And then there's this guy in the middle who messes things up, right? That's the like

00:41:17.880 eventual version of me that says, I'm tired. I'm going to take a snack. I really, I really am hungry

00:41:22.800 right now. Now, commitment devices are sort of tools that we can put into place to put guardrails

00:41:28.740 on our future behaviors so that we can ensure that we don't sort of fall off and mess things up.

00:41:32.920 So, you know, a good example is this website stick.com. It's with two K's and it's fantastic

00:41:40.040 because what I can do is say, Hey, I've got a goal to, you know, act a certain way. I want to work

00:41:45.940 out three days a week for 30 minutes. And then I'll sort of enlist the accountability partner.

00:41:51.780 Let's call it you. Brett, every week you're going to call me and say, did you do it? Did you work out

00:41:56.260 three days a week? I also give my credit card to this site and I'll give the name of an anti-charity.

00:42:02.340 That's like a, call it a political organization or group that I don't want to donate to.

00:42:07.660 And then if I fail to live up to the goal that I said, well, you would press a button and suddenly

00:42:13.460 200 bucks, 500 bucks, a hundred bucks, whatever the amount might be is going to be taken out of my,

00:42:19.220 you know, charged my credit card and donated to whatever this disliked organization is.

00:42:25.060 Now, you know, through the lens of present and future selves, the gist here is that

00:42:28.840 you've got to pick punishments that are strong enough to deter the unwanted behavior,

00:42:34.220 but not so strong that we don't sign up altogether and just say, no, I would never do that to myself.

00:42:40.960 And so one thing to keep in mind when you implement these commitment devices is you might realize,

00:42:46.800 okay, so present self makes this decision to, let's say, write a book by the end of the year.

00:42:51.820 And so you start writing and you make a commitment with sticks. If I don't finish a manuscript by

00:42:57.560 the end of the year, then I got to pay X amount of dollars to this anti-charity.

00:43:01.900 But then in the course of writing, you discover, you know what? I don't actually enjoy writing a

00:43:07.460 book. This is not what I want to do. So you might learn by staying the course for that future self

00:43:12.100 that actually what you thought was your future self isn't your future self.

00:43:15.660 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I think that's okay to

00:43:22.660 some degree. Yeah. Right. Because that's reality. We can plan. You know, I love the phrase man plans

00:43:28.520 and God laughs. You know, it's like we can know that and I think still plan and then be flexible

00:43:35.720 with our plans. Right. So, yeah, I mean, that might apply that you might be able to back out of some

00:43:41.380 things, but not all things. Like you can't just be like, I'm going to back out from being a parent.

00:43:45.060 Right. Right. Your kid gets to be a teenager and you're like, yeah, I don't like this. Done with

00:43:49.700 this one. You can't do that. Um, or, you know, you can't do that with the, some people do with,

00:43:55.460 with romantic partners. Well, you know, five years in don't like this one, get rid of that one. So

00:44:01.680 yeah, I, yeah, I think when you make a certain types of changes, you got to be careful about what

00:44:07.120 you do because they might have very dramatic outcomes if you decide to, to jettison it.

00:44:12.960 That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I mean, I think, yeah, you can't just, uh,

00:44:19.200 you can't just like suddenly make all these changes. Like there's no consequences. Right.

00:44:27.180 But I think the bigger insight here is that we still have to make decisions moving forward and

00:44:35.720 also recognize that our future selves are going to change and have different preferences from us.

00:44:40.040 And then, you know, idiosyncratically consider how we deal with that. Right. So yeah, ourselves

00:44:45.260 might change, but there's still a permanent part of ourself that we have to reckon with,

00:44:49.940 not only with ourselves, but with other people, like other people are depending on us to be

00:44:55.640 permanent in a way. So we can't just, we can't change big things willy nilly. Like if suddenly

00:44:59.340 you become this just jerk, I, you see what I'm saying here? It's like, I guess this, again, 1.00

00:45:04.340 like this gets really philosophical, like when is it okay to course correct on yourself? And when

00:45:10.340 are there ethical and moral quandaries that arise when you do that?

00:45:14.860 Yeah. Yeah. This is a, I think this is a really, this is a really difficult question to grapple with,

00:45:20.440 you know, because this is almost a question for the philosophers, but I'm not sure that we've fully

00:45:26.180 sort of, you know, delineated, like, what are the spaces where it's okay to sort of make a shift?

00:45:32.160 What are the other ones where we have almost like a moral or ethical responsibility to stick

00:45:36.660 with the plans that our past selves made? I mean, I think also, by the way, this is exactly why big

00:45:42.520 life decisions are so, you know, existentially confronting because we do probably on some level

00:45:49.680 recognize that when we decide to get married or become a parent, you know, if we are fortunate

00:45:55.320 enough to sort of decide that or, you know, decide to switch careers or something like that,

00:45:59.440 there are implications for those choices. Yeah. And that's quite, that's quite difficult to sort

00:46:06.720 of recognize. And yet at the same time, it's not that we just sit in a state of paralysis and do

00:46:11.800 nothing. You know, eventually you make the decision and you do it with your sort of best guess in mind.

00:46:18.000 One thing that the research suggested, I think is really important to consider is to not just try to

00:46:25.320 simulate our own future selves, but to talk to others who've made the same decisions as us.

00:46:30.300 So you get a better idea of what it's like to be a vampire. You might not know completely,

00:46:33.980 but you'll have a better idea. Exactly. Exactly. So we've been talking about how,

00:46:38.980 if we feel closer to our future self, we're more willing to do things for our future self that might

00:46:43.880 not benefit us in the present, right? We're more willing to give up eating the cake, exercise,

00:46:49.180 going to bed early, saving more instead of spending more. But you make the case that

00:46:55.300 if we really want to be good time travelers and good to our future selves, sometimes it pays to

00:47:01.920 indulge present self. So how can indulging present self be good for future self?

00:47:07.460 Yeah, absolutely. I think this is a really important question to ask because

00:47:11.540 at the end of the day, the things we do in the present are what create the memories that future

00:47:17.940 self can look back on and have. And, you know, if we're sort of always sacrificing for future me,

00:47:25.620 what sort of present is that, right? It's like not, it's just not, life isn't going to be

00:47:29.800 fun or worth living to some degree. Maybe that's extreme. And so I do think it makes sense to

00:47:36.540 occasionally sort of celebrate the present, you know, to go for it, to do the thing, to pay the upgrade

00:47:42.640 so that we can both enjoy now and also have experiential memories that future you can look

00:47:51.300 back on with satisfaction and contentment and happiness and whatnot. You know, the issue arises

00:47:58.480 when we always do the upgrade. And then also the issue arises when we never do it, right? And so

00:48:05.200 to some extent, this is all, you know, idiosyncratic, but it's kind of finding

00:48:09.980 what's the right back and forth between present and future self so that both can be satisfied,

00:48:18.120 almost to sort of expand the pie for ourselves across time.

00:48:21.880 Well, Hal, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:48:24.680 and your work?

00:48:25.880 Yeah, thanks, Brett. It's been so great to talk to you. They can go to halhershfield.com. I've got

00:48:30.280 everything there. And the book, Your Future Self, How to Make Tomorrow Better Today,

00:48:34.200 it's available everywhere you can buy books.

00:48:38.220 Fantastic. Well, Hal Hirshfield, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:48:41.020 Awesome. Thank you.

00:48:42.940 My guest here is Hal Hirshfield. He's the author of the book, Your Future Self. It's available on

00:48:46.720 amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his website,

00:48:51.000 halhershfield.com. Also check out our show notes at awim.is slash future self,

00:48:55.960 where you can find links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:49:04.200 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at

00:49:10.200 artofmanless.com, where you find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that

00:49:14.080 we've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of. And if you haven't

00:49:17.440 done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give you a podcast or Spotify. It helps

00:49:21.460 that a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a

00:49:25.240 friend or family member who you think would get something out of it. As always, thank you for the

00:49:29.440 continued support. Until next time, it's Brett McKay, reminding you to listen to the AOM podcast,

00:49:33.540 but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - July 24, 2023

Set Your Future Self Up for Success

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