The Art of Manliness - Sisu, the Finnish Art of Strength

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast in finland sisu

00:00:12.280 is a concept that while it can't be strictly translated into english roughly corresponds to

00:00:16.580 a combination of bravery resilience grit and determination my guest today will help us unpack

00:00:21.200 it further and offers advice on how everyone can live a life with more sisu her name is joanna

00:00:25.500 nyland and she's the author of sisu the finnish art of courage joanna explains what sisu is and

00:00:29.820 how is exemplified in the david and goliath story of the fins facing down the russians during the

00:00:33.980 winter war we then talk about what it is about finland that birthed the quality of sisu in ways

00:00:38.240 to develop even if you're not finished including embracing discomfort getting out despite the

00:00:42.200 weather and seeking silence and solitude as a way to develop inner strength we also talk about the

00:00:46.320 finished practice of retreating to a rustic cabin in the summer to reacquaint oneself with simplicity

00:00:50.580 manual labor and nature and we enter conversation with the sisu way of communication how to foster

00:00:55.400 sisu and children after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash sisu joanna joins

00:01:01.620 you now via clearcast.io all right joanna nyland welcome to the show thank you thank you so much

00:01:18.940 so you are the author of a book called sisu the finnish art of courage we've written about sisu on

00:01:25.960 the site before and you say this it's like this untranslatable finnish word so i'm going to ask you

00:01:33.260 how to translate sisu into english what is sisu well i would say perhaps if if you would ask me for

00:01:41.660 like one single definition i would say stubborn determination i think that that probably covers

00:01:48.200 most bases but it's also i think for me personally the closest one would be resilience there's a lot

00:01:55.900 of tenacity in there and but also a kind of courage so that's why i argue that not only is sisu kind of

00:02:04.180 untranslatable from finnish we kind of need one word to cover all those different aspects

00:02:09.920 in my opinion how long has this word been around is it a relatively new word or has it been around in

00:02:15.780 finland for a long time it's been around for like a really long time i think the earliest written

00:02:22.000 record was from 500 years ago but that's just the written record so i would guess you know it feels

00:02:28.780 like it's been part of us forever and certainly part of our vernacular and and our identity so i

00:02:34.540 think i think probably from like time immemorial basically it's it's been impossible to trace

00:02:40.180 all right so sisu it's like a grit a determination a courage all those things in one and i think i think

00:02:46.500 really to understand sisu you can't really say it in words and even fins like they say you well if

00:02:52.400 you asked a fin like what is sisu they're like i can show you what sisu is but i can't describe it

00:02:57.060 so let's try to like describe sisu with some action i think the story that we've written about

00:03:02.420 on the site that i think really captures this idea of sisu was it's from the history of finland

00:03:07.640 it was during world war ii this is the winter war against the russians for those who aren't familiar

00:03:12.700 with the winter war can you walk us through it and how you think that exemplifies sisu okay so yeah

00:03:19.400 basically what happened was that in the winter of 1939 the soviet union attacked finland and obviously

00:03:26.820 you know finland was was and still is a very small country now there's about five and a half

00:03:32.080 million of us and i think back then it was probably less than four and versus the soviet union which was

00:03:38.380 obviously you know a superpower and the russians had three times as many troops and i think 30 times as

00:03:44.960 many aircraft and a hundred times more tanks and basically finland had nothing you know even the

00:03:50.820 the reserves that had to be called in they weren't like uniforms for everyone so people had to bring

00:03:56.940 their own clothes and they had to make these like white camouflage clothing out of like bed linen

00:04:04.640 basically and and it was all really like a do-it-yourself kind of war but we decided to fight it anyway

00:04:11.000 because it was basically for our sovereignty you know that was what was at stake and in the i think in

00:04:17.960 the global press i think it was maybe the the new york times or someone who who called it a david versus

00:04:23.500 goliath kind of situation because the odds were just completely hopelessly stacked against finland from

00:04:30.400 from day one but we kind of we i mean i wasn't obviously part of it but this is something we feel

00:04:36.940 very passionately about in finland but what we did was was basically to use our small size to our

00:04:43.140 advantage to to try to be as have as much ingenuity as possible when it came to to how to defend

00:04:50.160 ourselves which basically meant you know guerrilla tactics and and trying to make all those very scant

00:04:56.460 resources go as far as they possibly could and fins we did have an advantage you know being in in our

00:05:04.240 own country and knowing how to ski and use snowshoes and and knowing the landscape and things like that

00:05:10.200 obviously work to our advantage but nobody i think least of least of all us expected it to go as well

00:05:17.860 as it did because we we lasted for from november 39 to march 1940 we did eventually have to uh to to

00:05:27.360 cede some territory to to the soviet union but we didn't lose our our independence our sovereignty and

00:05:33.220 we didn't lose nearly as many men as the soviets did and i think that the figures are somewhere around

00:05:40.460 25 000 finns versus 200 000 russians and and this kind of changed not only i think our our sort of

00:05:50.340 the course of our future but also the course of the war according to some because you know for those

00:05:56.340 of you listening who know their world war ii history they know that hitler you know he decided to

00:06:02.380 attack the soviet union with the operation barbarossa and he did that basically because he felt that

00:06:08.820 they must be pretty weak if finland can beat them you know so and that was obviously the beginning of

00:06:14.760 the end for him but for us this has been you know like a really a pivotal time and a pivotal moment

00:06:20.560 because i think even the decision to just to even decide you know to to fight under those circumstances

00:06:27.620 to actually try is it was an act of sisu most definitely i mean so like there's a lot of

00:06:34.540 things you can take from that like that can tell you about what it means to have sisu so and what are

00:06:39.200 some like takeaways that you got from that experience that kind of exemplifies sisu well obviously you

00:06:45.940 know that stubborn determination never to give up even in the face of absolutely impossible odds i mean

00:06:51.280 that's what i think that's the one definition that i think most fins would agree on because then if you

00:06:56.280 ask i mean people have all kinds of definitions of sisu and and for some it's it's a very personal

00:07:00.840 thing but i think that's that's the one like you just go through you go through you know hell and

00:07:05.860 high water to to to just stick to what you've decided and and to win the day basically so that's

00:07:12.200 that's obviously one and then i think another one is really to use your perceived weakness to your

00:07:17.680 advantage and to think outside the box you know to to really get creative on when when you come

00:07:24.880 up against different obstacles and and to sort of let them challenge you instead of take away your

00:07:30.760 courage those are just a few from the off the top of my head and so i mean this okay this is this

00:07:37.380 moment is pivotal in finland but again what we've been talking about sisu is this is a concept or an

00:07:41.700 idea that's ingrained in your culture and like kids pick it up like why do you think why what is it

00:07:48.400 about finland that you know what do you think led to developing this idea of sisu well that's a really

00:07:54.780 good question because it's like i said you know we've had it for such a long time but i think i

00:07:59.480 think definitely the climate probably has a lot to do with it because it's it's kind of been tough

00:08:05.460 you know we we have nice summers and and all that but but on the whole it's kind of i think it must

00:08:11.300 have been a very difficult country to settle you know back in the day and to to scratch a living

00:08:16.380 out of the earth and and all those things so probably you would have needed a certain kind

00:08:21.080 of hardiness and definitely tenacity and a tendency to to want to stick things out just to stay

00:08:26.660 basically and i'm sure that goes for a lot of the nordics and and and other cold regions of the world

00:08:32.500 but i think that and then perhaps in more recent history we've been like like one guy that i

00:08:38.900 interviewed for the book he said that well you've been either colonized or invaded you know like

00:08:44.900 that's that's probably gonna gonna you know have have an effect on your attitude towards life and

00:08:52.020 and towards how you see yourself and and i agree i think i think history plays a big role but also

00:08:58.480 the climate and and probably something else you know like an x factor like you know what what is it

00:09:04.260 that defines a certain people what is it that gives them a character that that lets you tell them

00:09:08.980 apart from others i mean i don't know it's it's maybe something a bit mysterious as well

00:09:13.980 but what's interesting so sisu's is like sort of grit determination you would think you know very

00:09:18.440 like stone-faced stoic and just you know but but fin um fins are some of the happiest people in the

00:09:24.940 world according to some reports yeah do you think sisu yeah do you think sisu has something to do with

00:09:29.620 that yeah i do i do think it has a lot to do with that but you know that always makes me laugh

00:09:34.780 because when i think it's we've been like we've been the happiest country in the world for like the

00:09:39.160 third year running now and people here just scoff you know when when they see that they're like

00:09:43.840 like really we're not happy everybody knows we're not happy because first of all i think people mistake

00:09:50.160 you know what what is meant by happiness you know in the happiness index which i think is is more a sense

00:09:55.920 of satisfaction with life basically and and a sense of security and and a sense of self-determination

00:10:02.440 and all those things i think that's that's what is really measured um in that happiness index and and

00:10:08.180 that's where we rank really high and and i think people would agree if it was phrased more like that

00:10:13.720 but it's just that the word happy kind of rings very you know has a very strange ring to a lot of fins

00:10:19.660 because we're not we're not a carnival kind of people you know we're quite we're quite serious and

00:10:25.380 and i'm smiling on the whole i mean there are individual differences and and all that but yeah so that's

00:10:31.040 that's the funny thing because i get interviewed about that sometimes and it's always like the

00:10:34.720 reaction in finland is always like they should come here and see what it's like if they think we're the

00:10:39.700 happiest people so there is that but i think definitely you know i mean what is it that that

00:10:47.060 that makes people happy and i'm making in that in a deep deeply felt sense i think you know having a

00:10:52.780 society that you're proud of and and a society where you feel like there is an opportunity for me

00:10:58.360 to fulfill my dreams or at least try you know and and to be safe and for my kids to be safe

00:11:04.940 for them to have good schooling for for just a general sense that things are running well you know

00:11:11.560 and we can trust our government and and those things so i i think i think sisu has definitely

00:11:18.060 built you know the society that we now have that that is my firm belief anyway well i think that's

00:11:24.420 interesting point so i think when oftentimes when americans think of like sisu and grit they're

00:11:28.680 going to think of because we're individualistic and we're gonna think well it's an individual

00:11:31.740 trait but you describe sisu there's like a a collective sense there's a group sisu as well i

00:11:37.000 mean you can see that with the the winter war like that wasn't just there's individuals who

00:11:40.900 exemplified sisu but they also had to exemplify sisu as a group they did yeah and i think in general

00:11:47.600 too my my grandmother who was a young mother when the war broke out she said she always said that

00:11:52.840 that people came together like like at no time before she'd never seen anything like it before or

00:11:59.160 since just that sense of community you know that that for this time we need to to pull together we

00:12:06.240 need to set our differences aside and we need to come together and just you know be as one and you know

00:12:12.280 i mean we're in difficult times right now right i mean the the world and i think i think this is my

00:12:19.140 own personal theory that that basically nations that that aren't as divided are probably doing a bit

00:12:26.020 better you know in fighting covid because because it does require that kind of community thinking and

00:12:32.380 and you know one for all for one and one for all and i feel that you know that's that's what

00:12:37.940 community sisu is about is that you you know you go through something difficult but you go through it

00:12:42.580 together and you try to be there for one another so in the book here the section that i had a lot of

00:12:48.220 fun with where you describe how the way sisu is used in language right how parents talk to their kids

00:12:53.480 about sisu and there's like there's like sisu sayings that you know kind of like pump up sayings

00:12:58.000 what can you walk some of the some of these finnish sayings about sisu yeah well there is there's one

00:13:04.320 there's a few that i mentioned in the book there's one called sisu laja sydämella which is with sisu and

00:13:09.640 heart and and that's something that you see kind of used a lot because it basically is you know that's

00:13:15.000 what we want to that's what we want to embody that's how we want to live you know we want to have sisu

00:13:19.360 and we want to have heart and and then i think i mentioned this lapiharman kiven which is literally

00:13:25.080 means going through the gray stone and and the gray stone referred to is is granite gray granite which we

00:13:30.600 have a lot of in finland and it's really really hard and and you know that that kind of the it

00:13:35.880 doesn't mention the word sisu but it's a very sisu saying in the sense that that that's how we feel

00:13:40.920 that you you just we're just gonna like go through this rock basically if that's what it takes you know

00:13:46.200 yeah and i think there was something else but i i can't remember how the best you have there in front

00:13:51.560 of you yeah and one thing i liked is that you know parents tell their kids like you know like the best

00:13:55.980 compliment a kid can get is when a parent says you have sisu yeah yeah yeah makes a kid's day

00:14:01.280 yeah yeah it makes you sort of grow you know 10 inches at least yeah as a kid we're gonna take a

00:14:10.440 quick break for your words from our sponsors and now back to the show well let's talk about some ways

00:14:17.960 people can cultivate sisu in their own lives even if they don't live in finland yeah and so the most

00:14:22.580 obvious way i think people can like develop sisu is like well i just do uncomfortable things

00:14:26.240 so how do finns embrace discomfort to cultivate sisu and how what can like other people other

00:14:33.740 people from other countries learn from that well first of all i just want to say that yeah

00:14:39.600 definitely sisu is a universal trait you know it's not something that we that we only possess it's

00:14:44.880 just that we have happened to kind of name it you know and and make use of it i think probably um

00:14:51.240 you mentioned discomfort and i think that's a really like that's a really key element in in

00:14:56.800 cultivating some sisu for yourself and i think one thing that we we do it is obviously like i already

00:15:03.200 mentioned the climate that you know when when you live in a place where the the climate is kind of

00:15:08.760 tough for big parts of the year you kind of have to decide how you're going to let that affect you

00:15:14.500 and i'm sure this is true for like i said all regions in the world where the climate is is a bit of a

00:15:20.320 challenge is that you learn to to work around it and you learn to to not let it dictate what you can

00:15:25.840 and can't do so that's something i think like we see now for instance i mean we still have winter here

00:15:31.280 and you know it doesn't matter how cold it is you'll see you'll see people cycling you'll see people

00:15:36.620 running you'll see them obviously skiing and skating and doing all these things but it's kind of like an

00:15:41.260 everyday thing where you sort of quietly defy you know any circumstances that are kind of set

00:15:48.740 against you and also to experience i think the joy that lies on the other side of that you know

00:15:55.120 that if you for instance as a child i think i mentioned in the book that if you if you do

00:16:00.620 something that is a bit uncomfortable and maybe you get cold or maybe you get wet or or you know it's

00:16:06.660 it's a bit it's a bit tough you you just feel so much more empowered afterwards and and that's

00:16:13.000 something i notice equally much i think as an adult that it it does me good you know to actually push

00:16:18.940 myself a little even if it's just like a daily discomfort or or like well i'm sure you're going

00:16:25.120 to mention the summer cottage thing perhaps later on but that's uh that's also an aspect of that but

00:16:32.460 we actually want to spend some of our holidays you know in discomfort that's that's a very finished

00:16:37.820 thing but i think basically you don't don't be too soft on yourself maybe that's the core message

00:16:43.640 don't don't always go where where the the sort of the threshold is the lowest you know don't always

00:16:50.400 don't always be so extra kind to yourself like like try to push yourself a little bit and see what

00:16:56.560 happens no another yeah but yeah another takeaway i got from that is that fins really embrace contrast

00:17:02.660 or extremes so as you said their winters are very cold it's very dark and then the summer

00:17:09.560 it's wonderful it's beautiful but like the days are longer and like they embrace that uh but the

00:17:14.800 other thing you kind of embrace for contrast is you have well in america we say sauna but i've learned

00:17:20.260 that it's sauna yeah so you have the sauna culture as well it's a cut like you go from extreme cold to

00:17:26.000 extreme heat yeah we do yeah do you have a sauna in your in your house in your place yeah i mean i

00:17:34.040 live in an apartment building but sure yeah yeah we do you know you can sign up and you can you can

00:17:38.640 sort of book a time on saturday or friday or sunday or whenever and you go with your spouse or your

00:17:43.480 family and for an hour or so yeah it's wonderful um no i've got a sauna it's one of the biggest oh great

00:17:50.240 yeah it was one of the biggest the best purchases i've ever made it's fantastic i love it it's been great

00:17:54.260 here in oklahoma this winter we've had a really tough winter it got a lot of ice and snow it's

00:17:59.240 like right negative six degrees and it was great to get in the sauna and then being there it's like

00:18:03.680 190 degrees and then come out in the air where it's negative six you're like this is amazing

00:18:08.520 feels fantastic well you're on to something there yeah developed some sisu okay so that you mentioned

00:18:15.480 the the cabin culture i thought this i didn't know this about finland so having a summer cabin is a

00:18:20.980 pretty fairly common thing but it's not like a cabin where there's electricity and running water

00:18:26.040 it's just like it's basically a building with four walls and a roof yeah basically i mean for the

00:18:31.880 diehards i i think i did add add in the book as well that you know of course things are changing

00:18:36.820 because we are more comfort loving and i think my generation is and probably the next one even more

00:18:41.700 but for the the diehards yeah it has to be like a proper like it's it's basically back to nature

00:18:47.120 you know that's that's and and like you say it's a good point you know that we always seem to be

00:18:52.220 like we've had to live with these contrasts but we all also seem to search them out i would say

00:18:57.960 because obviously we have you know very comfortable homes in the city or wherever we live you know always

00:19:03.460 double glazing and well insulated houses and and we're very snug and warm in winter time and all that

00:19:09.220 but but then we want this simplicity we want this feeling of of coming back to something more

00:19:15.340 primal i would say something more something that is a lot more connected to nature and i think to some

00:19:22.060 degree we are as a people we are still quite connected to nature or even feeling like a longing for it or

00:19:29.420 that we belong in nature and we don't want to to bring all of the the the comforts and you know perks

00:19:38.100 of modern life into that we actually want to you know lead a simple life for a few weeks every

00:19:44.700 summer and and come back refreshed so yeah that's a bit weird no that's a good point so this is like

00:19:50.940 this isn't a cabin you go to just for the weekend like they actually they'll take two or three weeks

00:19:55.420 the beginning of the summer to do that right oh yeah and you know some people did they just want

00:19:59.620 to isolate like completely they just stay there they don't want to see anybody that's that's their

00:20:03.940 idea of a good summer holiday is that you let your beard grow and you you walk around in your your

00:20:08.980 you know sweatpants from 10 years ago and and you do some odd jobs around the summer cabin because

00:20:15.040 there's obviously lots of things to do always you know to fix it and so on but not seeing anyone and

00:20:20.380 not not sort of just kind of really you know leading a hermit existence for a few weeks that's that's

00:20:25.580 a lot of people that's their highest dream that's what they want to do well so there's somewhere in

00:20:30.940 between you know i don't i'm not really that hardcore but well there's some there's some

00:20:35.400 takeaways there from the summer cabin thing about other ways you can develop sisu one is that solitude

00:20:39.880 or silence you talk about that in the book the idea of silence like how does silence develop sisu you

00:20:45.440 think oh i think i i'm getting really excited about this i even wrote a book about silence

00:20:50.900 specifically last year and because it intrigues me so much but i think when it comes to silence i think

00:20:56.540 basically i mean to sisu i think basically what creates sisu is kind of this if you go really

00:21:03.180 deep and philosophical it's kind of this inner focus this inner peace and i think i think in order

00:21:10.180 to develop it at all you kind of have to come face to face with yourself you have to not be afraid

00:21:16.500 to be you know by yourself in silence at least for like short periods of time and you know i mean there

00:21:23.900 there used to be a time not that long ago when that was self-evident and people would kind of

00:21:28.260 do that without even thinking but now obviously life looks very different and we have to really

00:21:33.960 commit to having even five minutes of silence in a day sometimes it it feels like but i think it's

00:21:40.920 really essential to to sort of just center yourself to focus and you know people talk about mindfulness

00:21:47.540 and all that stuff and maybe you could call it mindfulness but for me it's just it's just kind of

00:21:53.100 it's a form of connection you know and i don't i don't feel like i even know what's going on with

00:21:59.620 me you know unless i take that time every day because there's so much input there's you know

00:22:04.900 everything from social media to news coverage all the time and there's pods and radio and there's music

00:22:11.840 playing and there's all these these things kind of coming at us you know all the time and i really feel

00:22:17.520 the need personally to to just sit in silence for a bit and and you know figure out what's going on

00:22:23.780 with me and kind of connect with myself and and that's where i think sizzle starts you know that i

00:22:30.040 i can't really connect with with this inner strength that i have you know unless i do that and nature

00:22:37.060 obviously is a really good vehicle for for bringing out silence because that you know you kind of go out

00:22:42.420 there and you already you you immediately you're you're kind of plunged into this uh this sense of

00:22:48.380 you know peace and and harmony and it kind of yeah it's it's this kind of takes care of itself i

00:22:54.520 think sorry for the wrong answer no i know i love it sounds like you're passionate about this i am i am

00:23:00.220 yeah so some ways to cultivate silence you know just kind of disconnect from the internet from the

00:23:05.040 hive mind make moments where you're not checking your phone all the time and then also yeah like be

00:23:10.440 alone like a sauna is a great place to be alone if you want to oh yeah but then yeah you said nature

00:23:15.000 yeah but the sauna too i mean and it's quite meditative don't you find i mean oh yes yourself

00:23:21.360 and in the heat and everything and you're you find your your thoughts kind of slowing down and you're

00:23:26.680 thinking about nothing in particular and it's just the most wonderful feeling

00:23:30.400 no it's fair i love it um so you mentioned nature i mean so

00:23:34.960 fins i imagine they love to hike love to snowshoe they love to be outdoors no matter what the

00:23:40.300 weather is yeah yeah yeah absolutely no such thing as bad weather yeah just bad clothes yeah

00:23:46.280 and the swedes have a saying like that too so you know i think it goes for all the nordics because

00:23:50.460 you know we've kind of been faced with a choice that either we kind of just sit on our couch for

00:23:56.080 half of the year or we decide that we're gonna go out there no matter what you know um i have my

00:24:03.440 limits i mean for now for instance right now we've had like really really icy weather for about two

00:24:08.820 days and i've tried not to go out because i really hate it when it's that slippery but but

00:24:13.500 that's my only like that's my only exception you know otherwise i will i will go out no matter what

00:24:19.560 the weather okay so other some nordic countries like have an idea so like we talked about we've

00:24:25.680 had mike viking on the podcast talk about hyga i think that's from denmark do the finns have a

00:24:30.720 similar concept to that like there's like an opposite of sisu that like if you if you

00:24:34.780 experience sisu you can enjoy this feeling of i don't know comfort or coziness i don't know what

00:24:41.540 is there something like that well i think they're i don't think they're related concepts necessarily

00:24:47.500 i've i know mike actually we we did this like speaking engagement together like a panel a few

00:24:52.640 years ago and it was really interesting to contrast these different ideas that we have in the nordics but

00:24:57.780 i think i mean we have hyga as well of course you know who doesn't like to to cuddle up you know with

00:25:03.080 under a blanket and light some candles and drink a glass of wine i mean of course we we enjoy that and

00:25:08.540 and i think that's something that you need to you can't neglect that either especially in winter time

00:25:13.340 you have to you know because you you will still be spending a lot of time indoors and you have to

00:25:18.040 make yourself cozy so i wouldn't say necessarily that sisu is something that makes you cozy but we

00:25:23.200 just kind of you know we we easily borrow from our neighbors and i think they borrow from us as well

00:25:28.480 so okay some things cultivate sisu embrace discomfort get outside embrace silence disconnect

00:25:34.460 so you can tap into that inner strength inner reservoir strength then you also in the book you

00:25:39.260 talk about how there's a sisu way you can you make the case there's a sisu way of communicating

00:25:43.820 so what is that what is if what how do fins communicate and how is sisu influence that

00:25:50.080 well i think i think we we're kind of we're known as being fairly blunt and unsmiling i don't necessarily

00:25:58.300 count myself in among that but but you know as as a people but but behind that bluntness you know is

00:26:04.280 is a real love of honesty and being genuine and being authentic and speaking the truth and i have a

00:26:11.880 chapter in the book about business negotiations because this is where i've observed it close hand you

00:26:16.240 know how how fins negotiate and what what is different in our culture and i think i think there

00:26:21.900 is just a value of being a straight talker and of being very upfront about issues and problems for

00:26:28.140 instance in in a business you know because obviously naming the problem is is like really necessary in

00:26:34.440 order to be able to to start work on it so i think i think that's the sisu thing you know it's an

00:26:39.880 integrity thing and and also we really mean what we say you know in finland and and there's this like

00:26:46.780 i don't i don't mean to say that other peoples don't but but there is a culture you know where

00:26:52.320 you have these phrases that don't necessarily mean very much a classic one i think is you know the

00:26:58.500 american who comes and you you know you you run into him in the street and he's like oh this is so

00:27:04.320 nice to see you let's meet up sometime you know and the finn will immediately bring out his calendar

00:27:10.000 and go okay when calling us on our bluff yeah yeah yeah exactly and and and the american will be

00:27:17.480 embarrassed and the finn will be like but you said you wanted to meet up i thought you were sincere

00:27:21.720 you know so so so it's it's those kind of kind of funny situations that occur so we we don't really

00:27:28.120 understand that kind of we we don't really do small talk you know and we don't necessarily have all

00:27:33.100 these nice phrases and that that tend to you know fill out things and and perhaps make people more

00:27:39.760 comfortable i don't know but the upside i would argue is that when when we speak you know that we

00:27:45.600 speak the truth and if a finn is your friend then he's going to be your friend for life and he's going 0.97

00:27:50.600 to stick by you and you know so it's it's all that that sort of putting a lot of value on being

00:27:56.200 authentic and genuine and being being honest and that your handshake and that your word really should

00:28:01.640 mean something that's that's very sisu and that's very much i think part of how we communicate you

00:28:07.560 know both in business and and sort of at a state level you know with heads of state and so on so

00:28:13.300 that's something that really runs through also our personal communication well i imagine too sisu helps

00:28:19.760 fins have those hard conversations that other people would want to avoid so you're like nope what's

00:28:25.020 this i gotta have sisu here dig deep have some grit and let's say let's have this uncomfortable 0.56

00:28:29.420 conversation yeah yeah i think i don't think it's a coincidence that we've had some peace brokers like

00:28:35.820 some some successful ones have come from finland you know because if you're sitting there with two

00:28:40.460 warring parties you know at the same table i think you have to just call a spade a spade and and kind

00:28:46.060 of be very blunt and upfront about what the issues are and that's where the finnishness kind of helps

00:28:51.100 so we had a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who were parents and i know a lot of

00:28:56.240 parents particularly in america they're concerned about they want their kids to be resilient they

00:28:59.440 want them to not you know be burdened by anxiety or things like that so what do you think american

00:29:05.640 parents or you know canadian british i don't know whoever south africa i don't know whoever's listening

00:29:10.400 to this japan what can we learn from the fins on how to foster sisu in our children that's a good

00:29:19.100 question yeah i think i think one phrase that i used in the book was cheerful empowerment

00:29:23.860 which i feel is something that my parents did for me is that you know they when i would be whining

00:29:31.660 and complaining and not wanting to do things they would they would just have this fairly cheerful

00:29:37.000 approach and be like oh it's not that bad and you'll like it when you're out there and you know

00:29:42.140 like if it's too cold just keep moving and and all those things that i feel like i'm much obliged to

00:29:49.420 them for for having done that because because they knew that i could do it you know it's more of a

00:29:54.780 kind of instilling in the child a sense of belief in themselves and of course that's you know sometimes

00:30:00.940 easier said than done but i think i think part of it is is allowing kids a little bit of freedom

00:30:06.480 and i know that this is really a tricky one because you know there are so many dangers lurking

00:30:12.220 out there and obviously you know if you be if you live in a big city anywhere in the world you can't

00:30:16.620 just let your kids go out and play anywhere or just say oh come back by five you know or whatever

00:30:22.160 so so i know it's it's a big challenge but i think at least in principle you know to try to allow them

00:30:28.040 some freedom to try to allow them to to get some scrapes and bruises and to to maybe fall off their bike or

00:30:34.080 or or fall off fall down from a tree if not too high but but you know to kind of just maybe let

00:30:41.800 them discover their own inner strength in a way because it's not something that they can really

00:30:48.280 figure out if they don't ever do anything or if they're never allowed to do anything and or to try

00:30:53.900 their own boundaries and and see what they're actually capable of so it's it's really difficult it's a

00:30:59.980 it's a very sort of shaky line to walk i i know that but i i think that that's that's probably what

00:31:07.840 lies at the heart of finish like how how we raise our children is is that that principle was sort of

00:31:15.480 you know supervised freedom but freedom yeah so i mean like do like parents just like say get out of

00:31:21.000 the house and kids can go explore wherever they want and just like be back by dinnertime is that kind

00:31:25.280 of how it is yeah yeah yeah i mean i grew up in the countryside and it was definitely like that

00:31:29.820 like my mom would would say i have two older brothers and and she was a bit more cautious

00:31:34.720 with me she said but with them it was just like you know she wouldn't know where they were they

00:31:40.060 were like gone the whole day and she was all there with their friends somewhere and this was you know

00:31:44.960 way before more cell phones or anything like that and and she would just be like well if you know

00:31:49.820 they're supposed to turn up by five if they don't turn up by six then maybe i'll start to ring around

00:31:53.780 you know their friends parents so so you know that that sense of like you know not neglect in by any

00:32:01.280 means but but just a sense of ease perhaps that that they're going to be fine and i actually think

00:32:06.980 that kids are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for a lot of the time you know that

00:32:12.180 they're not you know they won't break or they won't melt if if it rains a little bit you know that

00:32:18.620 that kind of thinking that that's very finished i think and and very sizzle another thing you talked

00:32:24.020 about your mom would say to you like when you were kind of timid about something it was like

00:32:27.540 something like go boldly or do it boldly yeah i really like that i thought that was cool yeah yeah

00:32:33.480 yeah she would say that yeah which means to just boldly now basically boldly now yeah boldly now yeah

00:32:41.320 just just go for it you know and it was me on my ice skates when i was four but yeah it's it's a

00:32:46.740 really good principle i think i still keep that you know in in mind i still have that phrase in the

00:32:51.700 back of my head you know that just just go for it and i think i would think that's a very american

00:32:56.620 notion as well to to not let your fears decide you know what you what you're gonna do

00:33:03.260 well joanna this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book

00:33:07.880 and the rest of your work um well basically i'm not very active on social media i'm afraid but i do

00:33:14.240 have social media accounts so you can find me on instagram and facebook the book you can basically

00:33:19.820 buy wherever books are sold online and in the states it's distributed by running press but yeah

00:33:26.320 i think it's not it's not a hard book to find well fantastic yeah it's not having social media presence

00:33:32.340 that's very very sissy well i i do but you know i'm not very active and i don't know i don't want to

00:33:37.800 be i don't want to i'm not an influencer you know in that sort of social media sense but i do hope

00:33:43.100 to influence people you know via my books and my writing and and so on but yeah fantastic well

00:33:49.240 joanna thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you brett so much it's been my pleasure

00:33:53.760 absolutely thanks my guest here is joanna nyland she's the author of the book sisu the finnish art

00:33:59.360 of courage it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere make sure to check out our show notes

00:34:03.080 at aom.is slash sisu where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic

00:34:07.360 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check out our website at

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The Art of Manliness - March 24, 2021

Sisu, the Finnish Art of Strength

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