The Art of Manliness - Sleep Like a Caveman

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.520 For several decades, people's reported sleep quality has declined.

00:00:15.300 This, despite the fact that specially optimized sheets, mattresses, and sleep trackers have

00:00:20.100 emerged during that time, and despite the fact that the amount of time people are sleeping

00:00:23.720 hasn't decreased for over 50 years.

00:00:26.060 In other words, people aren't sleeping less than they used to, but are less happy about

00:00:30.680 their sleep than ever before.

00:00:32.620 My guests would say that to improve our experience of sleep, we'd be better off looking past the

00:00:37.180 reams of modern advice out there and back in time, way, way back in time.

00:00:42.620 Today on the show, Dr. Moran Vandalar, a recovering insomniac, sleep therapist, and the author of

00:00:47.600 How to Sleep Like a Caveman, Ancient Wisdom for a Better Night's Rest, will tell us how

00:00:52.060 learning about our prehistoric ancestor sleep can help us relax about our own.

00:00:56.640 He explains that the behaviors we think of as sleep problems are actually normal, natural,

00:01:00.760 and even adaptive.

00:01:02.000 We talk about why hunter-gatherers actually sleep less than we think we need to, how their 0.97

00:01:05.860 natural wake periods during the night might explain our own sleep patterns, the methods

00:01:09.820 they use to get better sleep, and why our modern efforts to optimize sleep could be making

00:01:13.960 it worse.

00:01:15.120 Moran shares when it's okay to use a smartphone before bed, the myth that you have to get eight

00:01:19.120 hours of sleep a night, how to intentionally use sleep deprivation to improve your sleep, and

00:01:23.500 more.

00:01:23.760 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash cavemansleep.

00:01:28.000 All right, Moran Vandalar, welcome to the show.

00:01:45.780 Yeah, thanks.

00:01:46.280 So you are a sleep therapist.

00:01:48.400 You got a new book out called How to Sleep Like a Caveman, and what you do for a living

00:01:52.740 is you help people who have sleep problems, like insomnia.

00:01:55.460 They can't sleep.

00:01:56.500 What's interesting about your background is you yourself experience sleep problems throughout

00:02:01.620 your life.

00:02:02.220 Can you tell us about your troubled sleep and how it influences your approach to helping

00:02:06.440 patients?

00:02:06.820 I think I was 28 years old when I first developed insomnia, chronic insomnia.

00:02:11.620 So I was suffering from chronic insomnia for three years.

00:02:15.380 And while the main thing I found was I was feeling very hopeless and helpless because I

00:02:21.180 was trying to control the sleep problem and checking my alarm clock, and it actually pushed

00:02:26.280 me further away from a good sleep.

00:02:27.760 So at one point, I even tried taking a sleeping pill, and it didn't work.

00:02:32.500 So that was extra frustrating.

00:02:34.140 So it was a combination of many things.

00:02:36.340 But I think hopelessness and helplessness were really on the foreground.

00:02:40.100 When you experienced your sleep problems, was it having trouble falling asleep or staying

00:02:44.740 asleep or waking up earlier than you wanted?

00:02:46.500 What did that look like?

00:02:47.900 I think it was both.

00:02:49.180 Sometimes I had difficulty falling asleep.

00:02:50.980 It would take me about one and a half hours before I fell asleep.

00:02:53.460 And at other points, I was having difficulty maintaining sleep.

00:02:58.780 So I woke up in the middle of the night, checking the alarm clock, not able to get back to sleep

00:03:03.120 again.

00:03:03.540 So it was very different.

00:03:05.620 So with your book, How to Sleep Like a Caveman, you look to our evolutionary history to figure

00:03:11.160 out, well, maybe there's some things we can learn from our ancient ancestors about how

00:03:15.180 to improve our sleep.

00:03:16.500 Starting off, how do we know what cavemen slept like?

00:03:20.020 Because we can't...

00:03:21.060 Yeah, that's a good question, because we don't exactly know.

00:03:24.640 Because if you want to study rhythm, sleep rhythm, you have to have people that are alive.

00:03:29.260 So it's very difficult to find any clues on how people really slept like a rhythm from

00:03:35.300 archaeological findings.

00:03:36.420 But what we can do is we can look at people that still live in the same circumstances like

00:03:40.660 we did when we were cavemen.

00:03:42.240 So a lot of research is done in the Hata tribe.

00:03:45.420 That's a tribe in Tanzania.

00:03:46.620 And they have been studied a lot and also looking at sleep.

00:03:51.140 So we know a bit more about their rhythm.

00:03:53.680 And their rhythm is much more influenced by their environment, their natural environment,

00:03:57.240 so light temperature.

00:03:58.820 And that's how we got clues from the past.

00:04:01.860 And you also talk about some of the sleep problems we have today, a lot of people experience today.

00:04:07.460 They might have their origin thousands of years ago with our caveman ancestors.

00:04:11.940 Talk about that.

00:04:13.340 Yeah.

00:04:13.900 Well, I think one of the main problems nowadays is insomnia.

00:04:17.380 So problems in trying to fall asleep or maintaining sleep.

00:04:21.460 And actually, if you look at evolutionary theory, then they say that being awake during the night

00:04:27.440 was actually kind of a safety thing.

00:04:30.020 Because when you're awake during the night, you could wake and you can see whether there's

00:04:35.040 impending danger.

00:04:36.800 And so what we see in the Hata tribe as well is that they're awake for over two hours on

00:04:41.820 average during the night.

00:04:43.160 And I think that's a thing that we've lost during the past hundreds of years.

00:04:46.640 Okay, so let's dig in deeper into what we can learn from hunter-gatherer sleep and how

00:04:51.940 we can improve our own sleep.

00:04:53.640 And I think this question I'm about to ask piggybacks off of what you just said about

00:04:57.780 they're awake in bed for two hours sometimes while they're sleeping.

00:05:02.900 Let's talk about sleep duration first.

00:05:05.080 If you read most articles about sleep these days, it's like you have to get eight hours

00:05:09.080 of sleep.

00:05:09.860 And if you don't get eight hours of sleep, you're going to have health problems.

00:05:14.000 You're going to die early.

00:05:15.620 You're going to get dementia.

00:05:17.440 And it's scary.

00:05:18.920 So how many hours do hunter-gatherer tribes sleep?

00:05:23.500 Well, I think first of all, there's a big difference between popular articles and scientific

00:05:28.020 articles because they say different things.

00:05:30.840 So what we usually see in the scientific articles is that actually seven is the magic number.

00:05:35.780 And between six and eight is quite average if you look at sleep duration.

00:05:40.420 But if you look at the Hadza tribe in Tanzania, then they sleep between 6.2 and 6.5 hours on 0.76

00:05:45.920 average per night.

00:05:47.300 And once in two days, they nap for like on average 17 minutes.

00:05:51.500 So that's their total sleep time.

00:05:53.640 Okay.

00:05:54.040 So they're in bed, you said about eight hours, and they sleep actually for six hours?

00:05:59.600 Yeah, they're in bed maybe above nine, actually.

00:06:03.040 Nine and a bit.

00:06:03.860 So they're awake a lot.

00:06:05.700 So during the night, it's like two, two and a half hours awake.

00:06:08.880 Yeah.

00:06:09.040 And that discrepancy between hours in bed and then how many hours you actually sleep, that

00:06:16.800 produces what's called sleep efficiency, right?

00:06:19.340 Yeah, that's true.

00:06:20.180 Yeah.

00:06:20.420 So if you sleep most of the time while you're in bed, you'll have a higher sleep efficiency.

00:06:26.060 But if you sleep less than you are in bed, then you have a lower sleep efficiency.

00:06:30.120 Your sleep efficiency drops.

00:06:31.680 Yes, that's true.

00:06:32.400 And I think what we've done in the past couple of years, we've put a lot of emphasis on the

00:06:36.880 sleep efficiency.

00:06:38.380 And in the media, they usually say that you have to have a sleep efficiency above 85%.

00:06:43.500 But that would mean that the whole Hazard tribe would actually be a bad sleeper, while they 1.00

00:06:48.120 themselves don't see themselves as bad sleepers.

00:06:50.280 So that's very interesting.

00:06:51.300 So I think that a lot of that sleep efficiency is also based on what we think is good around

00:06:57.520 sleep, but that's not what everybody experiences.

00:07:01.500 And you cannot generalize that to other people and other countries.

00:07:05.160 Yeah.

00:07:05.240 For us, you know, living in the West, we want to compress all of our sleep and just one,

00:07:09.920 we want to get it done in one fell swoop.

00:07:11.780 Yeah.

00:07:11.880 So our goal in the West typically is something like, I go to bed at 10, I'll fall asleep in

00:07:17.600 10 minutes, and then I'm going to stay asleep for the rest of the night until my alarm goes

00:07:22.460 off in the morning.

00:07:23.240 Yeah.

00:07:23.560 Yeah.

00:07:23.780 That's what people want.

00:07:24.740 And that's what is frustrating because a lot of people don't get that.

00:07:28.320 Yeah.

00:07:28.540 Yeah.

00:07:28.720 And that's what causes insomnia.

00:07:30.120 It's like, well, I'm in bed, but now I'm sitting here staring at the ceiling for an hour,

00:07:34.380 hour and a half.

00:07:35.360 And then I wake up an hour, hour and a half before I actually wanted to wake up.

00:07:39.300 And that just causes a lot of frustration.

00:07:41.500 Yeah.

00:07:41.900 Yeah.

00:07:42.380 Yeah.

00:07:42.660 Yeah.

00:07:42.840 That's true.

00:07:43.360 It causes a lot of perfectionism around sleep.

00:07:45.620 And it's also, I think a lot of things are caused by the things we read in the media and

00:07:51.580 what is coming towards us when you look at information.

00:07:54.320 Yeah.

00:07:54.440 Well, let's talk about definition of insomnia we've been talking about.

00:07:57.020 I think people have an intuitive understanding of what insomnia is.

00:07:59.620 Like you can't sleep when you want to sleep.

00:08:01.520 Yeah.

00:08:01.700 Is there like a subjective insomnia and an objective insomnia?

00:08:06.920 Is there a difference between the two?

00:08:08.820 Well, usually if you look at insomnia disorder, then it's actually always a subjective complaint.

00:08:13.860 So what you see is that people have difficulty initiating or maintaining sleep.

00:08:17.680 To speak of chronic insomnia, you have to have three bad nights during the week.

00:08:23.000 So three nights with sleep problems and also suffer from daytime consequences, because if

00:08:28.340 you don't suffer from daytime consequences, then we don't speak of insomnia.

00:08:32.020 And I think there's a very big difference between subjective and objective sleep, because objective

00:08:38.080 sleep is actually the sleep measured by polysomnography or actigraphy.

00:08:42.420 And polysomnography is like a sleep study.

00:08:45.000 So we measure brainwaves, but also other indices, body indices.

00:08:51.120 And an actigraphy is a wrist-worn band in which you can see what the activity level is.

00:08:56.820 And it's a medical device, so it's not to be compared to like an app or a watch.

00:09:02.400 And it can give an indication of how somebody has slept.

00:09:06.060 And there is often a big discrepancy between the objective and the subjective sleep.

00:09:11.340 Yeah.

00:09:11.520 Some people who have sleep problems, they go to a sleep doctor.

00:09:13.960 They get a professional sleep study done.

00:09:16.420 And the results say, yeah, you slept seven hours.

00:09:20.300 Like you had great sleep.

00:09:21.140 And the person's like, no, I slept awful.

00:09:23.040 That was not good sleep.

00:09:24.020 That's where that discrepancy can come from.

00:09:26.120 Yeah, I saw a lot of those patients.

00:09:27.800 And the thing is that they did a research a couple of years ago.

00:09:30.520 It was actually from the town that I'm from in Eindhoven, the Netherlands.

00:09:33.560 And what they found was that in general, it takes about 20 to 30 minutes for a person to

00:09:39.280 realize that they are sleeping if they are sleeping.

00:09:41.660 So if you wake people up before those 20 minutes, then more than half of people say, I wasn't

00:09:46.680 sleeping yet.

00:09:47.500 So that's really strange.

00:09:49.080 So our brain is sometimes playing tricks on us.

00:09:52.060 So the Hasda tribe, do they experience insomnia?

00:09:54.240 If you look at, there's been a study by Samson and he asked whether they experience sleep

00:10:00.380 problems and between 1.5 and 2.5% actually experience sleep problems regularly.

00:10:08.020 But if you look at the West, that's around 20%.

00:10:10.300 So that's 10 times bigger.

00:10:12.640 The amount's 10 times bigger than in the Hasda tribe. 0.84

00:10:15.380 And that's because the Hasda tribe, if someone's waking up for an hour or two, they don't see 0.99

00:10:20.600 that as a problem.

00:10:21.440 Okay, this is normal.

00:10:22.400 Yeah, it's quite average.

00:10:24.080 Yeah.

00:10:24.240 And then in the West, we're like, oh my gosh, I wake up.

00:10:26.940 This is a problem.

00:10:27.840 So you have more people reporting sleep problems than the Hasda tribe. 1.00

00:10:31.620 Yeah.

00:10:32.040 Yeah.

00:10:32.440 Yeah.

00:10:32.880 Yeah.

00:10:33.640 And so in the Hasda tribe, when they do wake up, what do they do? 0.84

00:10:37.320 They just lay there?

00:10:39.000 Well, sometimes they talk with tribe members or they stay in the bed usually, so they don't

00:10:46.320 really get out of the bed.

00:10:47.460 Sometimes they do, but it's not like they're really, really active during the night.

00:10:51.900 So they're quite low in activity level usually.

00:10:56.040 Yeah.

00:10:56.140 And so what's the takeaway from that for us, you know, someone experiencing insomnia and

00:11:01.480 getting really frustrated that they can't sleep or stay asleep?

00:11:04.600 I think if you're in the bed awake and you feel quite relaxed, then I think a good thing

00:11:11.580 is to be aware of the fact that being awake is actually quite normal.

00:11:15.660 So it is easy to say, but don't frustrate immediately.

00:11:19.280 But if you feel frustrated or if you feel that your tension builds up, then sometimes

00:11:23.920 it's best to go out of the bed and do something else that really relaxes you and then go back

00:11:28.300 to the bed when you feel sleepy again.

00:11:29.760 Okay.

00:11:30.600 Okay.

00:11:30.900 So I think that's really good advice because I know earlier this year, well, it was actually

00:11:35.480 last year in 2024, for some reason I just started waking up, sometimes at 4.30 in the

00:11:40.920 morning.

00:11:41.880 This never happened to me before.

00:11:43.700 I started waking up at 4.30 and sometimes it's 5.30 and I remember it freaked me out.

00:11:47.980 I was like, oh my gosh, something's wrong with me.

00:11:49.640 I might have to go see a sleep doctor and I was worried I wasn't getting enough sleep.

00:11:53.940 But then I got to the point where I was like, you know what?

00:11:55.740 I'm okay.

00:11:56.200 If I get up and I do something kind of relaxing and then I'll fall back to sleep and I feel

00:12:02.020 fine in the morning.

00:12:03.240 Everything's fine.

00:12:05.000 Yeah.

00:12:05.360 Yeah.

00:12:05.600 Yeah.

00:12:05.780 And that gives a lot of reassurance and that's why you don't have the buildup that usually

00:12:10.660 people have that have insomnia.

00:12:12.080 They really fear the night before they go to bed.

00:12:14.440 So one takeaway from hunter-gatherers is don't stress out if you wake up in the night because

00:12:19.840 that's normal.

00:12:20.420 And another takeaway with sleep duration is that you don't need to obsess about getting

00:12:25.920 eight hours of sleep.

00:12:27.640 The Hadzda, I mean, they're getting just about six hours of sleep and anywhere between six

00:12:32.640 and eight for most people, you're going to be fine.

00:12:35.220 I think it's very important to look at your sleep need.

00:12:37.540 I mean, it's also very important to give yourself enough opportunity to sleep.

00:12:41.080 So some people say, well, I only need five hours and then they're sleepy during the day.

00:12:46.220 So I think it works both ways.

00:12:47.800 So on one end, you have to really look at your sleep needs.

00:12:51.480 So how much sleep do I need?

00:12:52.600 And really give yourself enough opportunity to sleep.

00:12:55.020 But if you're tense around sleep and if you can't sleep and you experience insomnia, then

00:13:00.600 sometimes it can help to really shorten your bedtimes.

00:13:03.440 So that's one of the strategies you do to enhance your sleep.

00:13:07.360 Yeah.

00:13:07.420 We'll talk about that in a bit.

00:13:08.640 Sleep deprivation is really interesting.

00:13:10.620 Yeah.

00:13:10.820 So that's something I saw with my own sleep this past year when I started waking up earlier.

00:13:15.820 I just kind of embraced it because like I would wake up at the end of the day.

00:13:17.780 5.30 or 5.00 and I would feel fine during the day.

00:13:21.540 Like I wasn't tired.

00:13:22.420 I wasn't taking a nap.

00:13:23.700 And I just kind of like, well, maybe I don't need as much sleep as I thought I did.

00:13:28.240 Yeah.

00:13:28.640 Yeah.

00:13:29.200 And I think one of the things, one of the things too, I had to embrace, you talk about

00:13:31.860 this in the book, as you get older, you know, I'm in my forties now, you have a natural

00:13:36.220 tendency to want to sleep less.

00:13:39.700 What does evolution tell us about that?

00:13:41.420 Like why do we have this tendency across humanity to sleep less as we get older?

00:13:46.740 What's going on there?

00:13:47.680 Yeah.

00:13:48.060 I think the main difference when you're getting older is that your quality of your sleep changes.

00:13:53.220 So what you see is that people who get older, they actually have less deep sleep and they

00:13:57.840 tend to wake up more during the night.

00:13:59.480 So that's what we usually see when people age.

00:14:02.460 And there's, there's one hypothesis, it's called a sentinel hypothesis.

00:14:06.400 And it says that as people age, they're actually better able to wake during the night.

00:14:12.040 So if older people lose their function of more hunting and gathering, then they have 1.00

00:14:17.940 more function during the night because they're more awake during the night.

00:14:20.840 So they can wake for the rest of the tribe.

00:14:23.420 Okay.

00:14:23.640 So I'm waking up early because I'm looking out for my family.

00:14:26.620 Yeah, that's it.

00:14:27.620 I'm going to, I'm going to reframe it that way.

00:14:29.240 That's a good way to reframe it.

00:14:30.500 So we've talked about the fact that you don't necessarily need eight hours of sleep, but

00:14:35.080 in the media and, or online, you see these articles saying, if you don't get those eight

00:14:40.300 hours, if you don't get enough sleep, there's all these dire health consequences.

00:14:44.460 You know, it can increase your chances of getting diabetes.

00:14:47.040 It can increase the chances of getting dementia.

00:14:49.820 It can increase weight gain.

00:14:51.580 So what does the research actually say?

00:14:53.540 If you don't get those eight hours of sleep, are the consequences as dire as you often hear?

00:14:59.240 Well, if you look at mortality, then you see that people who sleep less than five to five

00:15:03.780 and a half hours and more than nine hours are actually at risk of dying sooner.

00:15:09.580 So it's not like if people sleep less than eight hours, this happens.

00:15:13.900 They say that seven is actually the magic number here again.

00:15:16.980 So around seven, the mortality is lowest, but those are only associations.

00:15:23.980 So we don't know anything about causality because these are big population studies.

00:15:28.540 And if you look at chronic disease, then you see a very clear association between objective

00:15:33.940 sleep problems like sleep apnea, which is a sleep disorder in which you have breathing stops

00:15:39.460 during the night and desaturation.

00:15:41.560 So lower oxygen in the blood, and that is really associated with things like higher cancer

00:15:47.520 risk, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease.

00:15:50.840 But if you look at insomnia, then this association is not there or much lower.

00:15:56.020 And what you usually see in the media is that it is said sleep problems lead to, but they

00:16:01.280 don't define what kind of sleep problems they're talking about.

00:16:03.820 So this is a lot of confusion going around what they are talking about when you say sleep

00:16:08.400 problems.

00:16:08.780 Oh, I think that's heartening for people who, you know, their sleep problem is they just

00:16:12.200 have a hard time getting to sleep or staying asleep.

00:16:14.260 They have insomnia and they think, oh my gosh, I'm going to die of a heart attack.

00:16:17.880 I'm going to get dementia.

00:16:19.080 The research says, yeah, there's not really an association.

00:16:22.580 If your sleep problem is insomnia, you don't have to worry as much.

00:16:25.960 But if you have a sleep problem, like sleep apnea, where you basically stop breathing while

00:16:29.660 you're sleeping, then that's a concern.

00:16:32.120 Yeah, that's right.

00:16:32.960 Yeah.

00:16:33.340 Well, tell me more about the dementia thing, because I'm getting in my forties now and that's something

00:16:36.960 I'm thinking more about and I'm like, oh my gosh, what can I do to make sure I don't

00:16:40.140 get dementia?

00:16:41.200 What does the research say about the connection between sleep duration or sleep quality and

00:16:45.720 dementia?

00:16:47.180 Here it also says that if you suffer from sleep apnea, then the dementia risk might be bigger.

00:16:53.320 So I think it's always important if you snore very loudly, if you have breathing stops during

00:17:01.020 the night, it's very important to see a physician because sleep apnea is actually a disorder that

00:17:05.860 is often not recognized and it has very severe consequences, very severe physical consequences.

00:17:12.000 So I think that's a very important thing.

00:17:14.420 Okay.

00:17:14.700 So if you do have sleep apnea, you might have to get like a CPAP machine, help you breathe.

00:17:18.480 Yeah.

00:17:18.760 For example.

00:17:19.460 So I think this is actually really good information because I think a lot of, one of the things

00:17:23.980 that can contribute to the stress of wanting to get to sleep and stay asleep, you know,

00:17:29.640 the stress of insomnia is that these headlines are going through people's heads like, oh my

00:17:33.200 gosh, I'm laying in bed where I can't sleep.

00:17:34.680 And that's what makes them even sleep worse.

00:17:36.760 Yeah.

00:17:37.340 So yeah, I think this information is useful.

00:17:39.460 So it just kind of calms you down a bit and you won't freak out as much if you're having

00:17:43.100 problems sleeping.

00:17:44.180 Let's talk more about cavemen and hunter-gatherers sleep and what we can learn from them.

00:17:48.980 You mentioned at the beginning that hunter-gatherers and potentially our cavemen ancestors, their

00:17:54.620 sleep schedule was guided more by their environment.

00:17:58.300 So the physical environment.

00:17:59.660 So we're talking light, temperature, even seasons affected their sleep.

00:18:04.580 Yeah.

00:18:04.720 What do we know about that?

00:18:06.380 Well, what we see is that, for example, in the Hatha tribe, there's a bigger difference

00:18:10.500 between the sleep in summer and in winter.

00:18:14.020 So what you see is that there is almost an hour difference between the seasons.

00:18:19.220 And what we see in the West is that actually that difference is not that big.

00:18:24.200 And I think that's also because we use heating.

00:18:28.660 We use a lot of light.

00:18:30.480 So the differences between the seasons are not that big for us.

00:18:33.880 But what we can learn from these people is that, for example, in the morning, they get a lot of bright

00:18:38.780 light.

00:18:39.180 And in the early afternoon, they get a lot of bright light and you get more bright light

00:18:42.420 if you go outside, because outside light is much brighter than the light you get when

00:18:46.900 you're in an office.

00:18:48.120 And I think that what a lot of people do is they go to their work, they're in the office,

00:18:52.380 and then at night they put the lights on in their living room.

00:18:55.900 And there's not that much difference between the evening and the morning or the afternoon.

00:19:00.500 And I think that we can work with light by being more outside.

00:19:04.700 I mean, and even a walk of 20 to 30 minutes might do.

00:19:08.140 Just not sitting behind your desk eating your sandwich there, but going outside might do

00:19:12.760 the trick already.

00:19:13.680 So it's not like you have to be outside all day.

00:19:16.920 And another thing is dim the lights in the evening is very important.

00:19:20.060 And also use temperatures.

00:19:21.300 So don't make it too hot, the ambient temperature too hot during the evening, because that is very

00:19:26.540 unnatural.

00:19:26.940 Okay, so get more light in the morning and then in the afternoon.

00:19:31.580 So get outside, that can help.

00:19:33.520 And if you live in an area where there's not much light, so if you live in the extreme northern

00:19:38.100 parts of the world during the winter, there's things you can do.

00:19:41.720 You can introduce things like the light lamp.

00:19:44.660 You can do that, that can help.

00:19:45.960 There's things you can do to help with that.

00:19:48.240 Yeah, it's very important to look at the lux.

00:19:50.000 So the amount of light that comes from the light lamp, and if it's, usually we say at least

00:19:54.740 10,000 lux would do the trick.

00:19:56.360 And something you talk about too, another myth about sleep that you debunk, you hear

00:20:01.100 a lot of people say, well, if you want to improve your sleep, you have to wear blue light blocking

00:20:06.660 glasses or turn your smartphone screen yellow.

00:20:10.000 Yeah.

00:20:10.440 And the research says that actually doesn't do much because your smartphone doesn't emit

00:20:15.220 that much light.

00:20:17.180 That's true.

00:20:17.840 Yeah.

00:20:18.040 A lot of smartphones don't exceed 10 lux.

00:20:20.740 And you need more than 10 lux usually to stimulate your biological clock.

00:20:25.400 So, I mean, the light is more blue and we are more sensitive to blue light.

00:20:30.280 But the amount of light that is emitted from a smartphone is just too little to stimulate

00:20:35.040 the biological clock.

00:20:35.960 Now, if you look at light around you, so that is very important and also to make it not too

00:20:41.400 bluish.

00:20:42.560 But I mean, you can also dim the lights a bit so that it doesn't really have effect on your

00:20:46.820 biological clock.

00:20:47.560 You don't have to wear orange glasses to have the same result.

00:20:51.260 And you still recommend people not to use their smartphone right before bed because it's

00:20:54.940 not for the light.

00:20:55.780 It's just that smartphones can get you amped up and kind of stretch you out and get you

00:21:00.180 just thinking more.

00:21:01.580 And that can help, that can prevent you from falling asleep.

00:21:05.020 Yeah, that's right.

00:21:05.740 And a recent review in 2024 by Gratisar shows that actually for some people, using a smartphone

00:21:13.180 might even help to fall asleep.

00:21:15.200 I think it really depends on what type of person you are.

00:21:18.160 If you're very busy in your head and you have difficulty finding enough rest, then sometimes

00:21:23.960 a smartphone can get you off your thoughts.

00:21:26.960 So it distracts you a little bit.

00:21:28.220 And that might help you sometimes to fall asleep.

00:21:30.360 But that's, it's always, you always have to look at the personal circumstances.

00:21:35.540 Well, you talk about in the book, one thing that you did when you're having sleep problems

00:21:38.220 that helped, I think a therapist or a doctor recommended you like, turn on the TV.

00:21:42.400 Yeah.

00:21:42.700 And it did, like it worked.

00:21:44.060 It relaxed you and you're able to fall asleep.

00:21:46.120 Yeah, it worked for me.

00:21:46.820 Yeah, definitely.

00:21:47.420 Because I'm somebody with a very busy head.

00:21:49.600 So for me, it works.

00:21:50.480 Yeah.

00:21:51.660 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:21:56.380 And now back to the show.

00:21:58.160 So going back to temperature, you want to keep it cool.

00:21:59.940 Is there an ideal temperature you want to keep in your room to help facilitate sleep?

00:22:05.080 Yeah.

00:22:05.360 Usually in your bedroom, they say between 16 and 18 degrees Fahrenheit.

00:22:10.800 Okay.

00:22:11.180 Or is that Celsius?

00:22:12.280 I think it'd be like 60.

00:22:13.280 Oh, Celsius.

00:22:13.720 Sorry.

00:22:14.120 Yeah.

00:22:14.360 Celsius.

00:22:14.900 Yeah.

00:22:15.040 Yeah.

00:22:15.300 Yeah.

00:22:15.520 I think it's like 68 degrees Fahrenheit is the number that I hear.

00:22:18.440 Fahrenheit.

00:22:18.580 That's true.

00:22:19.000 Because otherwise it would be very, very cold.

00:22:21.400 That would be very cold.

00:22:22.360 Yeah.

00:22:22.720 And something that I do, it's interesting.

00:22:25.520 My wife, she likes it warmer.

00:22:27.480 And I'm a hot sleeper.

00:22:29.780 And so something that's helped me is I've got a chili pad.

00:22:33.000 It's a thing you put underneath your mattress and kind of runs cold water beneath you.

00:22:36.920 Oh, yeah.

00:22:37.300 And that keeps things down to about 68.

00:22:39.800 And it helps me fall asleep.

00:22:41.360 Something I noticed though is I'll, right before I wake up, so like 4.30, I'll wake

00:22:47.300 up and I'm like, this is too cold.

00:22:48.760 I actually want to be warmer now.

00:22:50.580 And I think you talk about research.

00:22:51.900 We want it cooler when we fall asleep.

00:22:54.800 But then as we get closer to wake up time, we actually want it to be warmer because it

00:22:57.980 helps us wake up.

00:22:59.460 Yeah.

00:22:59.640 It helps us wake up.

00:23:00.600 Yeah.

00:23:00.820 Yeah.

00:23:00.960 The body warms up again.

00:23:02.640 That's true.

00:23:03.220 Yeah.

00:23:03.400 And also, it's very good to have a cooler environment before falling asleep.

00:23:08.660 But sometimes people have very cold feet and hands, and that might prevent you from falling

00:23:14.380 asleep because then you have this vasoconstriction.

00:23:17.800 So the blood vessels, they really contract and that creates more difficulty for the body

00:23:21.880 to lose body temperature.

00:23:23.980 And that's why some people with cold feet and cold hands cannot fall asleep properly.

00:23:27.680 So if that's you, wear socks, maybe wear some mittens to bed.

00:23:31.700 Yeah.

00:23:31.720 Sometimes that works.

00:23:32.720 Yeah.

00:23:32.960 Yeah.

00:23:33.560 And then seasonality.

00:23:34.880 I mean, you mentioned that in the West, our seasons are pretty much the same, but I've

00:23:40.260 noticed I tend to sleep more during the winter because it's darker and longer because I just

00:23:44.900 want to go to bed earlier than I do during the summer.

00:23:48.620 Yeah.

00:23:48.860 And that's a natural thing.

00:23:50.100 That's a natural thing.

00:23:50.880 So people tend to sleep like 12 to 25 minutes longer during the winter because it's more dark.

00:23:58.500 So they get less active during the evening and their biological clock also gets less stimulated

00:24:06.860 in the evening.

00:24:07.580 So that's why they fall asleep earlier or lie in the bed longer in the morning because the

00:24:11.980 morning light is getting up later.

00:24:14.720 Again, that's useful information to know because if you feel like you're sleeping less as it

00:24:18.680 progresses through spring and summer and you think, oh my gosh, something's wrong with me.

00:24:22.360 It's like, well, maybe not.

00:24:23.840 Like this is just your natural rhythm where you want to sleep less because it's lighter out longer.

00:24:27.480 Yeah.

00:24:28.580 Yeah.

00:24:29.380 So another thing you talk about hunter-gatherers do is they move a lot during the day.

00:24:34.580 How does that influence their sleep?

00:24:37.180 Well, if you look at the relationship between exercise and sleep, then you can say that being

00:24:44.180 more active builds up more adenosine and adenosine is a neuromodulator and it creates sleepiness.

00:24:51.760 So if you have higher levels of adenosine, then you get more sleepy.

00:24:55.480 And so being more active actually makes you more sleepy and tends to give you more rest.

00:25:02.940 So you fall asleep more easily and have less problems maintaining sleep.

00:25:07.620 Okay.

00:25:07.820 So adenosine, that builds up what's called sleep pressure or sleep drive.

00:25:11.760 Yeah.

00:25:11.860 That's right.

00:25:12.360 Yeah.

00:25:12.520 Okay.

00:25:12.720 And so something you can do to increase the sleep drive is just move more throughout the

00:25:17.020 day.

00:25:17.280 Get some physical activity in.

00:25:19.000 Yeah.

00:25:19.160 That's the first thing.

00:25:20.120 Yeah.

00:25:20.280 Yeah.

00:25:20.580 What about something I read a lot about when it comes to sleep is that you shouldn't exercise

00:25:26.000 right before bed.

00:25:27.680 Is that true?

00:25:29.720 Well, studies show that if you exercise too much, like one to two hours before going to bed,

00:25:35.620 that might create more problems falling asleep.

00:25:38.460 So that's right.

00:25:39.120 Yeah.

00:25:39.260 Okay.

00:25:40.080 Yeah.

00:25:40.540 And when it going back to movement and sleep, I know if I look at my life, the times where

00:25:44.840 I've slept the best, it's when I've moved the most.

00:25:48.200 I remember the best sleep I ever got.

00:25:50.140 And I think about it still, I'm chasing that high.

00:25:52.880 I'm still chasing it is when we, my wife and I went to Rome for vacation and, you know,

00:25:58.260 in Rome, like you walk everywhere.

00:25:59.940 It's not like here in Tulsa where you have to drive everywhere.

00:26:03.040 Rome, you had to walk everywhere.

00:26:04.460 And I remember we got back from a day and we just laid on the bed and we both just fell

00:26:09.900 asleep.

00:26:10.620 And then we slept, I think 12 hours.

00:26:12.760 I mean, I'm sure there was some jet lag going on with that, but it was the, I think the movement,

00:26:17.180 like the amount of physical activity we did that day, it just, it was like the best sleep.

00:26:20.820 I just felt refreshing and revigorating.

00:26:23.060 It's a lot of sleepiness.

00:26:24.100 Yeah.

00:26:24.360 Yeah, definitely.

00:26:25.160 Yeah.

00:26:25.420 Yeah.

00:26:25.640 And so, yeah, I've noticed in my own life when I don't move a lot, I tend to not sleep

00:26:30.060 as well.

00:26:30.600 So I just try to make sure not only keep my regular exercise up, make sure I'm getting

00:26:35.180 up throughout the day from my job and doing some pushups, taking walks because that, it

00:26:39.760 really does help.

00:26:40.860 Those are things that work.

00:26:42.040 Yeah, definitely.

00:26:43.020 Yeah.

00:26:43.520 Let's talk about the sleeping environment of hunter gatherers.

00:26:46.460 You know, they didn't have fancy mattresses.

00:26:47.980 They slept on beds of leaves and grass on the ground.

00:26:51.340 What about sleeping with other people?

00:26:53.140 Did they sleep with other people by them?

00:26:54.960 Yeah, actually we think, well, if you look at the Hatha tribe, they sleep with 20 to 24 1.00

00:27:00.200 people around the fire.

00:27:02.100 And we think that the same thing happens in the past.

00:27:06.140 So in prehistory.

00:27:07.880 So yeah, I think they slept with a lot of people and they could easily take watch during the 0.98

00:27:13.100 night for each other.

00:27:14.420 How did that influence their sleep?

00:27:15.840 Like, did that disturb them at all?

00:27:17.580 Well, if you look at the research on sleeping together with a partner or with somebody else,

00:27:22.300 then you see a very, very interesting thing because on the one hand, people subjectively

00:27:27.860 feel that they sleep better.

00:27:29.380 But sometimes if you sleep with your partner, they find that objectively you sleep worse.

00:27:34.160 So there's a big difference in how people experience sleep and how sleep objectively is.

00:27:39.740 And possibly that has to do something with safety, with built-in safety.

00:27:43.620 When you sleep with somebody else, then you feel more safe.

00:27:47.540 Okay.

00:27:48.160 But then it can also mess up your sleep because your sleep partner elbows you or takes all

00:27:52.500 the covers or whatever.

00:27:54.100 Yeah, definitely.

00:27:54.980 Yeah.

00:27:55.360 Any recommendations for that?

00:27:56.540 Let's say your spouse, the person you sleep with, like they're just a really restless

00:28:00.260 sleeper and it's interrupting your sleep.

00:28:02.360 Any advice on how to handle that?

00:28:04.340 Yeah, I think it depends on what the restlessness is because if it's like turning and tossing and

00:28:09.880 turning, then you might think about two mattresses, possibly two duvets.

00:28:15.080 And if a person really snores, sometimes earplugs might help.

00:28:19.200 But in some cases, I've seen patients who were so tired because of the sleep problems

00:28:24.780 that I advise them to sleep in separate rooms.

00:28:27.380 And sometimes sleep really improves.

00:28:28.980 And I think there's really a stigma on that in Western society of not sleeping together.

00:28:34.780 But then again, if you have a partner that's totally tired and worn out, then I think

00:28:39.620 that's not a good thing either.

00:28:41.180 So I think it's very important to discuss that with your partner to see whether you can

00:28:46.360 make arrangements on that or maybe sleep a couple of nights separately from each other.

00:28:52.520 But I think it's very important to discuss it with each other.

00:28:55.340 Let's talk about sleep hygiene and what hunter-gatherers do to improve their sleep hygiene.

00:29:01.420 An important part of sleep hygiene is winding down before bedtime.

00:29:06.400 Do hunter-gatherers kind of have a wind-down time before they hit the sack?

00:29:11.600 Yeah, they do.

00:29:12.560 They actually sit by the fire, tell stories to each other.

00:29:17.400 There are stories that are not too upsetting, so not about conflicts or things.

00:29:22.180 And what you see is that a lot of people have different rhythms like we have.

00:29:26.180 So we have morning people, evening people, and everything that's in between.

00:29:30.620 And yeah, so they really wind down before going to bed.

00:29:34.220 They are not too active anymore.

00:29:36.060 And I think sometimes the thing with us is that we run to the bed and then expect for us

00:29:41.820 to sleep immediately.

00:29:43.460 And I think that's not how it works.

00:29:44.960 So what do you recommend to patients you deal with who are having sleep problems?

00:29:49.560 Like how early should they start getting ready for bed?

00:29:52.900 Like when should the wind-down time start?

00:29:55.680 Yeah, usually I say one to one and a half hours before going to bed.

00:29:59.200 So don't do anything anymore that has to do with work.

00:30:03.260 Don't be too active anymore.

00:30:05.520 I think those are things that can really work.

00:30:07.880 Maybe watch a series, something that's a bit boring maybe, not too exciting.

00:30:13.460 I think those things might work.

00:30:15.580 All right, and then dim the lights and cool down the house or your bedroom.

00:30:18.920 Yeah, cool down the house.

00:30:19.600 That can help out a lot.

00:30:20.700 Something that's come up more with people in sleep, when they're paranoid about sleep,

00:30:25.860 something they'll often do is resort to a sleep tracker.

00:30:28.500 So maybe on their Apple Watch or they'll get the Aura Ring or something like that.

00:30:33.060 Do you recommend people use sleep trackers to improve their sleep?

00:30:36.980 Well, it depends on what kind of person you are.

00:30:39.380 If you're a bad sleeper, I would not recommend it.

00:30:41.980 Because first of all, if you look at the measurements of sleep, these trackers are completely

00:30:47.160 unreliable.

00:30:48.280 So sometimes they say you had 30% deep sleep and 20% REM sleep.

00:30:54.260 And the thing is that they are very inaccurate when it comes to measuring types of sleep.

00:30:58.660 What they can do in people who sleep well is they can make an estimation on how long you've

00:31:04.440 slept and how long you've been awake.

00:31:06.740 Just it's a rough estimation.

00:31:08.720 And that's actually the only thing they can really do well.

00:31:12.000 So I would not recommend them to people who are already experiencing insomnia.

00:31:17.160 Okay.

00:31:17.520 Yeah.

00:31:17.660 Because they can actually exacerbate the problem.

00:31:19.120 There's like a new type of sleep disorder.

00:31:21.960 Yeah.

00:31:22.620 Or the somnium.

00:31:23.120 Yeah.

00:31:23.540 It's driven by the devices.

00:31:24.920 Be like, oh my gosh, my sleep score was terrible.

00:31:26.880 Yeah.

00:31:27.380 And they just freak out even more and it makes sleep even harder.

00:31:30.180 That's how it works.

00:31:31.040 Yeah.

00:31:31.260 Yeah.

00:31:31.480 I've noticed that.

00:31:32.240 I've used some of those sleep tracking devices.

00:31:33.980 And they're interesting.

00:31:34.860 I just kind of used it as I just wanted some information about my sleep.

00:31:38.640 I didn't really put much credence to it.

00:31:40.920 But I had a few moments where the device said I had really poor sleep.

00:31:46.160 But I'm like, I feel fine.

00:31:47.660 I feel great.

00:31:48.400 I'm energetic.

00:31:49.600 Yeah.

00:31:49.620 And then there was moments where it said I had great sleep.

00:31:51.980 And I'm like, man, I'm really, I'm groggy.

00:31:54.360 I'm tired.

00:31:54.940 I had to end up taking a nap during the day.

00:31:57.400 So yeah, not incredibly accurate.

00:32:00.440 Yeah.

00:32:00.980 And so for some people, it's very important that sleep score and it really leads the day

00:32:05.400 and how they feel.

00:32:06.280 And then if you have a poor score, then it can really influence your day negatively.

00:32:10.860 Yeah.

00:32:11.340 Do you recommend maybe keeping a sleep diary in some cases, you know, just like kind of

00:32:15.420 manually tracking your sleep?

00:32:17.060 Yeah, I think so.

00:32:18.060 I think for insomnia, it helps very well.

00:32:20.220 I think one of the treatment steps we do in cognitive behavioral treatment is using a

00:32:24.820 sleep log.

00:32:25.860 So sleep diary and it is to create a better picture of how somebody is sleeping, at what

00:32:32.040 time they go to bed, at what time they wake up and how many times they wake up during the

00:32:36.520 night.

00:32:37.300 So I think a sleep diary, sleep log may help very, very well.

00:32:40.500 Yeah.

00:32:40.980 So let's talk about some potential solutions.

00:32:43.380 Let's say someone's listening to this and they're having a hard time sleeping.

00:32:46.100 They're not happy with their sleep.

00:32:47.400 I think oftentimes people resort to, okay, is there a supplement I can take?

00:32:52.300 Is there a new mattress I can get, a new pillow, you know, whatever, even sleep medication.

00:32:58.340 But what you found is the most effective tools to help with insomnia is cognitive behavioral

00:33:04.060 therapy, I, so CBT-I.

00:33:06.660 Yeah.

00:33:07.060 So that's for insomnia.

00:33:08.260 The I stands for insomnia.

00:33:09.660 And then sleep restriction, which you mentioned earlier.

00:33:12.360 Let's talk about CBT-I.

00:33:13.460 What does that typically look like for a patient in broad strokes?

00:33:18.080 Yeah.

00:33:18.520 So the full cognitive behavioral treatment sleep restriction is usually a part of the

00:33:22.420 cognitive behavioral treatment for insomnia.

00:33:24.740 And the full cognitive behavioral treatment starts with psychoeducation.

00:33:29.640 So about what is normal sleep?

00:33:32.260 What can you expect?

00:33:33.280 So that those are the first steps.

00:33:34.980 Then you talk about relaxation techniques.

00:33:38.700 And then you start looking at behavioral techniques.

00:33:41.120 And the behavioral techniques are things that people can do to really give their sleep a

00:33:46.860 boost and not be awake, stressed out during the night.

00:33:50.560 So the first one is a sleep restriction method.

00:33:53.340 And the second one is stimulus control.

00:33:55.360 We've been talking about that before.

00:33:56.760 That's going out of bed when you're really tense, doing something that relaxes you and go

00:34:00.920 back to bed.

00:34:01.600 And what we see is that sleep restriction is actually highly effective.

00:34:06.040 That's the other method.

00:34:07.260 And that's shortening your bedtimes to create more sleepiness.

00:34:11.800 You get a better buildup of adenosine or adenosine.

00:34:15.880 And what you see is that people have less difficulty falling asleep and maintaining sleep.

00:34:20.880 So those are actually the steps of the CBT-I.

00:34:23.520 And sleep hygiene is also a part of it.

00:34:25.360 So you look at light, you look at temperature, and especially not watching the clock.

00:34:29.920 I think not watching the time is also very important.

00:34:32.840 Okay.

00:34:33.120 So CBT-I, you're going to start with psychosocial education.

00:34:36.000 So this is the things we've been talking about today.

00:34:37.880 It's like, hey, you know what?

00:34:39.400 You don't need eight hours of sleep.

00:34:40.620 You're not going to die if you get less than that.

00:34:42.300 If you get six hours, you're going to be fine.

00:34:44.540 Even if you get five hours occasionally, you're going to be okay.

00:34:47.780 And it's just reassuring people like you're fine.

00:34:51.180 You're not going to die.

00:34:52.140 And then, and also just telling people like, you know, it's normal to wake up.

00:34:56.620 That's going to be okay.

00:34:57.700 You just got to go back to sleep.

00:34:59.100 And then the sleep restriction aspect, once you start helping people under reframing their

00:35:04.300 problem, what they think is problematic sleep, the restriction is like, you're actually telling

00:35:08.560 people, okay, instead of going to bed at 10, we want you to go to bed at maybe midnight.

00:35:14.360 Yeah.

00:35:14.840 So that you wake up your normal time of six.

00:35:17.800 The goal is to actually make you sleepier during the day, the next day, because we want to

00:35:22.840 build up more sleep, the sleep pressure.

00:35:26.460 And so you, you fall asleep.

00:35:27.920 That sounds like a hard sell to people.

00:35:29.780 It's like, yeah, you're actually going to be tired for a couple of weeks to improve your

00:35:33.820 sleep.

00:35:34.100 Yeah.

00:35:34.860 Yeah.

00:35:35.120 Especially the first three to four days are very, very intense because for a lot of people,

00:35:40.880 the problems, they get bigger during the first three to four days.

00:35:45.560 People tend to get more sleepy during the day because of the buildup of sleepiness.

00:35:49.820 Sometimes they get more tired, more concentration problems, that kind of thing.

00:35:54.160 And then after four to seven days, you usually see slight improvements in sleep.

00:35:59.240 So people have less difficulty falling asleep and have less problems maintaining sleep.

00:36:04.320 And then after two weeks, usually people say that they sleep much better.

00:36:10.100 And you also see that the daytime consequences of the sleep problem, they disappear after

00:36:14.800 two to three weeks.

00:36:15.980 So I think it's a very powerful method that usually works within a couple of weeks.

00:36:20.900 Okay.

00:36:21.260 And then as you're, what's interesting about the sleep restriction, you're gradually over

00:36:24.780 time, maybe after two weeks, you're going to increase the time you're in bed.

00:36:29.040 So maybe you start off going to bed at 12, waking up at six, and then two weeks later,

00:36:34.940 it might be, well, you're going to go to bed at 1130 for a while.

00:36:38.900 Usually we work with a quarter of an hour.

00:36:40.820 So you expand the time with a quarter of an hour.

00:36:43.660 Okay.

00:36:44.000 So this process could take a few months, correct?

00:36:47.740 To kind of get you back on track?

00:36:50.360 Well, usually what we see is that people, what I've seen in practice is that sometimes

00:36:54.580 people come in, they're in the bed for like nine hours and they sleep for five and a half

00:36:59.360 or six hours.

00:37:00.840 And then what you usually do is you start out with total bedtimes that are similar to the

00:37:05.600 sleep times they reported last week.

00:37:07.560 So if they say I've slept for five and a half hours, then they go to the bed for a maximum

00:37:12.940 five and a half, usually plus a half hour.

00:37:15.760 So around six.

00:37:17.200 So they're in the bed for a maximum of six hours.

00:37:20.620 Then you wait a week to two weeks, usually sleep improves in 80 to 85% of cases.

00:37:26.700 And then you start expanding the bedtimes again with a quarter of an hour.

00:37:30.920 And sometimes people feel that when they're in the bed for maybe seven, then they've actually

00:37:36.700 reached their optimum because if they go past those seven hours, they have more sleep problems

00:37:42.180 again.

00:37:42.600 So actually, usually it takes about four to six weeks to treat a person with insomnia.

00:37:47.800 Wow, that's fast.

00:37:48.880 That's really great.

00:37:49.640 Any advice on how to figure out how much sleep you need to get?

00:37:55.440 Yeah, I think the most important thing to do is to look how you sleep when you're on

00:38:01.440 holidays.

00:38:02.580 So the second week of your holidays, you have to find out at what time you start getting

00:38:08.620 sleepy and at what time you spontaneously awaken.

00:38:12.920 If you do that and you find that out, then you really know how much sleep you need, but

00:38:18.300 also which chronotype you are.

00:38:20.840 So whether you're a morning person or an evening person or somewhere in between.

00:38:25.300 What do you do if your chronotype, like let's say you're an evening person, but you have

00:38:30.900 a job that requires you to be a morning person.

00:38:33.640 Anything you can do to mitigate the consequences of that?

00:38:36.680 Yeah, I think I think there are some things you can do is you can work with bright light in

00:38:42.420 the morning if that's possible.

00:38:44.020 So that really pushes your rhythm a bit more back.

00:38:48.020 And what you can do is you can create a more dark environment before going to bed and go

00:38:53.700 to bed on time.

00:38:55.460 So I think that's very important because for evening people, it's sometimes very difficult

00:38:59.260 to go to bed on time.

00:39:01.160 But still, your natural rhythm will always be leading.

00:39:04.720 So you can do something with that, with these methods, but it will never change you to being

00:39:10.720 a morning person.

00:39:12.420 So what people sometimes do in the weekends is they're in the bed a little bit longer,

00:39:17.100 so one to one and a half hours to compensate a bit for the hours that they miss during the

00:39:21.900 week.

00:39:22.820 And sometimes this may help, but it's very important to not overdo it.

00:39:27.820 Right.

00:39:28.380 You don't want to sleep in too much because that's just going to throw off your sleep schedule

00:39:32.040 for the rest of the week.

00:39:33.400 But we've talked about a lot of things people can do to help them get a better night's sleep.

00:39:38.960 Is there one thing you recommend people start doing today that will immediately improve their

00:39:44.360 sleep?

00:39:45.000 I think not watching the time.

00:39:46.840 I think that's a very important one.

00:39:48.140 We know from research that if you watch the time, then it takes up to 20 minutes longer

00:39:52.620 to fall asleep again.

00:39:54.220 So I usually pay a lot of attention to that.

00:39:57.000 And a lot of people with insomnia find it very difficult to not watch the time when they're

00:40:01.620 awake.

00:40:02.160 But I think it's a very, very powerful method to decrease insomnia.

00:40:06.300 All right.

00:40:06.460 So just get the clocks out of your room.

00:40:08.180 Yeah, definitely.

00:40:09.420 Yeah.

00:40:09.720 And for me, the big takeaway from the book is like, just don't freak out as much about

00:40:13.420 your sleep if you are having problems with sleep, because that just causes more problems.

00:40:18.300 And when you wake up at 4.30, it's like, oh, okay.

00:40:22.240 Well, you should know it's 4.30 because you don't have a clock in your room in the first

00:40:25.540 place.

00:40:25.920 Yeah, that's true.

00:40:27.020 But if you do wake up earlier, you're just like, okay, it's okay.

00:40:30.080 I'm going to pretend like I'm a Hasda tribe member and just kind of sit here and relax and 0.99

00:40:34.020 doze back to sleep.

00:40:36.340 Yeah.

00:40:36.600 Just let the perfectionism go a little bit and yeah, be more relaxed around being awake

00:40:42.520 during the night.

00:40:43.060 We need to be more relaxed about being awake during the night.

00:40:47.300 I love that.

00:40:47.840 Well, Marijn, this has been a great conversation.

00:40:49.260 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:40:52.040 Well, first of all, the book, I mean, you can already order the book, so it can be ordered

00:40:56.060 from Amazon.

00:40:57.280 So Sleeping Like a Caveman.

00:40:58.960 And I also have a website, Marijn van der Laar.

00:41:01.920 I think you have to spell it out in the details.

00:41:04.160 We'll link to the show notes.

00:41:05.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:07.100 So that's where they can find more information.

00:41:09.660 All right, Marijn van der Laar.

00:41:10.600 Thanks for your time.

00:41:11.020 It's been a pleasure.

00:41:12.000 Yes, thanks.

00:41:12.860 Same for me.

00:41:15.440 My guest is Marijn van der Laar.

00:41:16.760 He's the author of the book, How to Sleep Like a Caveman.

00:41:18.920 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:41:21.220 Check out our show notes at aom.is slash cavemansleep.

00:41:23.980 We find links to resources.

00:41:25.120 We delve deeper into this topic.

00:41:26.200 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:41:36.860 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com.

00:41:38.880 We find our podcast archives and check out our new newsletter.

00:41:41.600 It's called Dying Breed. 0.98

00:41:42.960 You can sign up at dyingbreed.net.

00:41:44.540 It's a great way to support the show.

00:41:46.360 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:41:48.220 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:41:49.660 Reminds you not list AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:41:52.920 I'm Brett McKay.

The Art of Manliness - February 04, 2025

Sleep Like a Caveman

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