The Art of Manliness - The Art of Conversation — A Guided Tour of a Neglected Pleasure

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.900 So how do you form a meaningful connection with another person?

00:00:14.000 Well, it starts with simply opening your mouth.

00:00:16.780 From there, my guest says you want to progress through a conversation or perhaps a series

00:00:20.580 of conversations in a particular sequence of stages that will form an effective on-ramp

00:00:24.520 towards a stronger relationship.

00:00:26.000 Her name is Judy Apps.

00:00:27.160 She's a speaking and voice coach and the author of several books on communication, including

00:00:30.760 The Art of Conversation.

00:00:32.320 Today, Judy and I discuss that art, beginning with why it's so important to learn.

00:00:36.160 We then get into the different levels of conversation should progress through in order to build intimacy

00:00:39.900 and smoothly segue into discussing the things that matter most.

00:00:43.160 Judy explains how to bring the kind of energy to conversation that creates connection and 1.00

00:00:46.900 two exercises you can use to overcome the self-consciousness that can thwart that energy.

00:00:51.380 Along the way, we discuss how a conversation is both a game that you can have fun practicing

00:00:54.980 and a dance that can flow into some of life's most magical moments.

00:00:58.340 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash Art of Conversation.

00:01:12.420 All right, Judy Apps, welcome to the show. 1.00

00:01:14.920 Happy to be here.

00:01:15.720 So you are the author of a book called The Art of Conversation.

00:01:19.440 And I thought it'd be good to have you on the podcast now, because at least here in

00:01:22.680 the United States, things are starting to open up a little bit.

00:01:25.440 We're getting back to normal, to what it was like before COVID.

00:01:29.140 And I feel like, you know, for over a year, we haven't really had in-person conversations.

00:01:34.820 A lot of our communication has been over Zoom.

00:01:37.180 And at least me, I feel like I've gotten a little bit rusty with my conversational skills.

00:01:42.040 But generally speaking, when you work with people on improving their conversation, where

00:01:47.420 do you feel like people fall short of, you know, in their conversational skills?

00:01:55.400 Well, I think I feel very similar to you.

00:01:57.840 I've been at home for many months.

00:02:00.760 I think nearly always people come from the same point of view, which is they feel that conversation

00:02:09.680 is about their talking, or that's what they're worried about.

00:02:13.660 And often they go to extremes.

00:02:15.960 Either they feel, I've got nothing to say.

00:02:18.500 I don't know how to start it.

00:02:20.040 I don't know how to continue it.

00:02:21.200 I don't know what to say.

00:02:22.460 Or else that they know that they're people who witter.

00:02:27.020 Is that an American term?

00:02:28.520 They can't stop talking.

00:02:30.480 So once they start going, they're so nervous that they just carry on and carry on and carry

00:02:34.960 on.

00:02:35.180 And both those two come from not listening.

00:02:40.900 And it's partly because people don't necessarily think that's a big part of it, because they

00:02:45.540 are more worried about what they can do themselves.

00:02:49.600 I think that's the number one thing.

00:02:52.020 There's also, I think, the fact that people also think of searching for subjects, finding

00:02:58.960 something to talk about.

00:03:00.480 It's a funny thing.

00:03:01.860 After my dad died, I discovered in his dress coat pocket a little list of how to do the

00:03:08.620 steps in dancing, ballroom dancing.

00:03:12.100 And I think he was so worried about not getting his steps right that he carried in his breast 0.94

00:03:16.300 pocket notes to tell him how to dance.

00:03:19.820 Now, how he was ever going to look at those, I don't know.

00:03:22.100 But I think people are like that with conversation.

00:03:24.120 They feel they've got to prepare topics ready to talk about.

00:03:28.880 But the content of your conversation is only part of it.

00:03:33.620 It's not even the biggest part of it.

00:03:36.000 The content can vary.

00:03:37.780 When you meet somebody, it can go to all sorts of places.

00:03:40.820 But the other part of it is that your connection to the other person is even more important than

00:03:48.780 actually what you're going to talk about.

00:03:50.400 I've been in conversations with, in a group sometimes after a course, and somebody tells

00:03:56.440 a story, perhaps it's a sporting story, and then somebody else tells their sporting story,

00:04:01.820 and then somebody else has their opinion about some sporting thing.

00:04:05.960 And they carry on saying their bits, one opinion after another, but nobody connects with anybody

00:04:12.320 else.

00:04:13.260 But the exciting things in conversation happen when you connect.

00:04:16.620 When you actually begin to understand the other person, you feel a bit closer to them,

00:04:21.040 you begin to trust them.

00:04:22.480 All those things, all those things come when you connect.

00:04:27.000 And we'll talk about in this conversation what we can do to build more connection in our

00:04:30.980 conversations.

00:04:32.040 And I think another issue that holds people back with conversation is they don't think of

00:04:36.800 it as a skill that they can get better at.

00:04:39.500 They think, well, I've been talking since I was one and a half.

00:04:43.220 I don't need to think about how to be a better conversationalist.

00:04:48.300 But you make this case that, and you can go back in Western history, recent Western history,

00:04:53.920 where conversation was seen as an art that you tried to get better at.

00:04:59.380 So what are you think the benefits if someone cultivates this ability to have conversations

00:05:05.500 that connect?

00:05:06.800 What have you seen in the people you've worked with?

00:05:09.580 How has that enriched their lives?

00:05:10.800 Well, first, I do think it's amazingly important.

00:05:16.120 And it's quite surprising that we underestimate that.

00:05:21.020 And just as you said, we are all very used to the fact that we've been talking since we

00:05:25.600 were a couple of years or less old.

00:05:28.380 So we have been doing it forever.

00:05:30.380 But how did we learn?

00:05:32.160 We learned completely haphazardly from the models we happened to have at the time, which

00:05:37.060 was our parents, our carers, whatever.

00:05:39.000 So, for example, if I had a very bossy mother who did nothing but just make statements, when 1.00

00:05:45.700 I grow up thinking that talking is about making pronouncements, or, you know, if I had somebody

00:05:52.140 who has always had a very angry sort of voice, I might learn that that's how I talk and I

00:05:57.760 sort of throw this voice at everybody.

00:05:59.700 And I think that hits people very often, sometimes at school, but usually when they start work.

00:06:11.000 And anybody who has sort of risen in the world of work knows how incredibly important it is to be articulate,

00:06:20.660 to be able to say what you mean, to make connections with people, all that stuff.

00:06:24.500 So at work, it's hugely, hugely important.

00:06:28.580 I mean, it starts from the very beginning, doesn't it?

00:06:30.400 I work quite often with people who are going for interviews or reviews.

00:06:35.020 So there's that first meeting with the company, and you're expected to be able to speak and

00:06:41.440 articulate what you've done and what you're pleased about and all the rest of it.

00:06:44.440 And then when you're at work, there are meetings, again, a huge, huge difficulty for a lot of people.

00:06:51.820 Many people say, well, I'm all right, just talking one-to-one, but in a meeting, I never get in.

00:06:58.280 I never get attached to the point of having people hear me say anything.

00:07:02.740 So there's all that.

00:07:04.160 Then there's the whole business of working with clients, of networking, of reaching out to people

00:07:10.720 who aren't in your company, and that the whole business of actually getting noticed in your company.

00:07:17.680 I've had people say very, very often that actually they started to raise their profile to be noticed

00:07:24.940 when they began to improve their speaking skills.

00:07:29.400 So hugely, hugely important.

00:07:32.320 And it's not just work, because the other thing that prompts people is relationships.

00:07:38.280 You know, often at school, people have perfectly good relationships, and then they're out in the big world,

00:07:44.080 and they find it tougher, particularly when they want to make an intimate relationship with somebody.

00:07:52.660 You know, people often say, you know, how did you meet?

00:07:56.000 And they might say, well, we met here or we met there.

00:07:58.540 So how did you get together?

00:08:01.080 And often the man will say, well, I chatted her up.

00:08:04.080 That's a conversation.

00:08:04.900 And how do you do that sort of conversation where the subject matter doesn't matter that much?

00:08:11.280 You just want to get closer to somebody.

00:08:15.360 Well, talking is all about that, too.

00:08:17.460 It's all about that.

00:08:19.260 And the pleasure, of course, the pleasure of having fun with people, to chat and to laugh,

00:08:24.360 to learn stuff from other people.

00:08:26.800 The best learning is through conversations.

00:08:29.260 I think a lot of teachers would say that in conversing with the class, people pick things up.

00:08:35.600 They pick things up.

00:08:37.280 And I think the last thing and the most important to me is that when you're conversing with somebody,

00:08:42.480 you can have just really magical moments where you realize that you both get each other.

00:08:49.600 And therefore, you can talk about anything and you will feel understood and you will feel stimulated.

00:08:57.340 And you come off that sort of conversation on a real high because, you know, life's worth living because I can connect with somebody and be understood.

00:09:06.500 Well, let's talk about how we can improve our conversational skills and refine the art of conversation.

00:09:13.120 So going back to that story you told about your father with the dance steps in his breast pocket,

00:09:17.740 you make this case that conversation is like a dance and it's good to think of it like a dance.

00:09:22.620 So how is conversation like a dance?

00:09:26.120 I think it's exactly like a dance.

00:09:28.440 If you look at people in, you're in a cafe or a restaurant or something and you look across at couples, at tables,

00:09:37.420 you can see who's getting on even without hearing them because there's a feeling of flow between them.

00:09:45.460 Maybe they're both sitting in a similar sort of comfortable way.

00:09:48.880 And then one leans forward a little and then the other one leans forward as well.

00:09:52.680 So it is a visible dance, even from a distance.

00:09:56.060 And then if you got closer to them, you would hear the tone of voice also is a dance.

00:10:04.800 If somebody says, you know, oh, I hate that artist. 0.96

00:10:08.220 If they're getting on well, the other one might say, oh, that's ridiculous. 0.96

00:10:11.600 I love her.

00:10:12.920 So they're using a similar sort of voice when they're getting on.

00:10:17.140 And then somebody perhaps goes into a more feeling movement and says something about something that matters to them.

00:10:26.560 And the other person, too, comes down into that space, that space that feels something more to do with emotion, perhaps.

00:10:35.640 So you will hear that to and fro.

00:10:38.320 So there aren't that many shocks that come in that it actually flows in terms of actually what you're saying and how you how you get on with talking to people.

00:10:50.400 It is certainly a game of two parts.

00:10:55.640 It has two players.

00:10:57.760 And when conversation is flowing beautifully, it tends in normal conversation just to flow from one and then back to the other and then to one and the other.

00:11:07.960 Of course, it's not always like that because sometimes people make a contract that, OK, I'm going to talk for an hour and you're going to listen to me for an hour, you know, in a cancelling session or something.

00:11:17.480 But in normal conversation, you tend to share the time.

00:11:22.880 I have had what I might call a conversation with people occasionally where I've met a friend and they've talked solidly for an hour.

00:11:33.220 And then afterwards, they've said, oh, I so enjoyed our conversation.

00:11:37.660 It was great, wasn't it, finding out more about each other.

00:11:40.380 And I would think, well, I'm not sure I said that to a word.

00:11:44.000 So that is where a conversation hasn't been a flow.

00:11:48.340 It's just been one person sort of taking taking the lead in it.

00:11:54.480 When you first meet somebody, this idea of of to and fro is what gets it started.

00:12:02.340 Shall I talk about meeting people from the first time?

00:12:04.840 Yeah, let's talk about it.

00:12:05.440 Would you like to hear about that?

00:12:06.420 Let's go ahead and talk about that.

00:12:07.340 So, for example, say I would like I would like to chat.

00:12:12.620 I feel it quite strongly at the moment because I do a lot of my work at home.

00:12:17.120 So if I walk down into town, it's really lovely sometimes to actually hear a few words from someone else distanced as we are.

00:12:27.240 It's still lovely to get into a conversation with somebody.

00:12:31.660 So a really good way to do that is to say something.

00:12:36.100 I mean, it's kind of a bit obvious, isn't it?

00:12:38.940 But somebody has to start a conversation.

00:12:41.880 But if you want to start it with somebody you don't know so well, you don't want to make it threatening.

00:12:47.200 So, first of all, you don't make it clever.

00:12:50.200 You don't make it super witty.

00:12:51.940 You don't make it really personal.

00:12:54.080 You don't turn to somebody and say, ah, so who are you really?

00:13:01.140 A question like that, but it's, you know, you say something just really, really simple.

00:13:07.800 Over here, we always talk about the weather.

00:13:09.620 It's always a good conversation.

00:13:11.660 But it is.

00:13:12.540 It's a wonderful thing to talk about because the weather varies a lot here.

00:13:16.480 And there's always something to say about it.

00:13:18.240 And it is completely unthreatening.

00:13:20.260 Or else you talk about the environment, the stuff around you, or whether you've been waiting in the queue long, or, you know, just stuff.

00:13:30.340 And then the other person has the opportunity to say something to.

00:13:34.880 And if they do, then you know, okay, they're probably up for a bit of a chat.

00:13:40.340 So then you will say something back.

00:13:41.840 And the way that the ping pong from side to side works is it's really good if at the end of the little bit you say, you pose a question.

00:13:54.840 So let's say you were talking to somebody about holidays, you know, and they say, where have you been on holiday?

00:14:01.520 And you say, oh, we went to Brighton.

00:14:03.120 Now, that might stop the conversation.

00:14:06.060 They might not think of the same thing to say.

00:14:08.500 But if you can just pop a little question at the end of your reply, oh, I've just been to Brighton.

00:14:13.380 Where do you like to go on your holidays?

00:14:15.480 So you've popped it back into their court.

00:14:18.080 And I mention it in the book as a game of tennis because it is really like popping something over the net and then the other person popping it back again.

00:14:26.760 And if you do that for three, four, five sentences, you usually light on something that actually interests you both and that you are actually really curious to ask more about.

00:14:39.160 Well, no, so I think this is a good point.

00:14:40.800 So you're basically talking about making small talk to get a bigger conversation going.

00:14:44.920 And like you said, a lot of people, sometimes when they think of conversation, they think you got to get deep right away.

00:14:51.940 But that's not how people work.

00:14:53.200 You have to kind of feel them out and make what I call friendly noises, just sort of like friendly grunts to see if they're interested.

00:15:00.180 And if they are, then you can pick it up possibly.

00:15:03.080 Yes.

00:15:03.440 Friendly noises is great.

00:15:05.360 Actually, that's exactly it.

00:15:07.180 You make friendly noises on very safe subjects, on transport, the place, and things like that.

00:15:13.940 In my book, I call that thing talk because you never make it personal to the other person.

00:15:19.020 You might not even, at the very beginning, to say something like, so what do you think about?

00:15:23.760 That's an opinion, and that's fine.

00:15:27.040 But actually, safer even than that is just talking about general things about the environment or what car you drive or how you arrived at the place where you are and so on.

00:15:37.280 And then, and then step by step, you can get closer to the person.

00:15:42.820 And it usually gets closer by then asking them something about what they do in that environment.

00:15:50.700 So, you know, do you go on holiday?

00:15:53.340 You know, where do you like to go?

00:15:54.880 And then what do you like to do?

00:15:56.920 As soon as you're asking people what they like to do, you're getting a little bit personal, but not in any sort of intrusive way.

00:16:02.940 They're just telling you about stuff they might do or they might not do.

00:16:06.880 And then little by little, you go in stages until you get to stuff that actually matters to them.

00:16:13.300 And then when you're talking about stuff that matters, well, then, yes, you're getting into a real conversation about values and about what's important to people.

00:16:22.340 So then you've got somewhere real where you're both being real with each other.

00:16:27.740 Well, let's talk about that process.

00:16:29.500 It's kind of, so we have an example.

00:16:31.340 So, okay, you start off with thing talks.

00:16:33.080 You're going to talk about the weather.

00:16:34.300 You're going to talk about the line at the shop or the queue, as you would say, where you're at.

00:16:39.880 And then you might feel them out and like, oh, we can probably start talking about what you do.

00:16:45.080 So you can be like, oh, so where did you go on holiday?

00:16:48.080 Or you can even say, well, I went to holiday, you know, this place, the weather was great there.

00:16:52.360 And that can lead the conversation about what you do.

00:16:55.800 Like, where would you go after that?

00:16:57.720 Like, what would be the next level up after talking about what someone does?

00:17:02.020 Okay.

00:17:02.480 So, so after that, you would probably start teasing out what people think about stuff.

00:17:10.060 So it's getting on to opinions.

00:17:13.760 Do you prefer this or do you prefer that?

00:17:16.140 You might even then start asking the, oh, so why do you prefer sailing?

00:17:21.300 You know, to, I go out of my motorboat.

00:17:24.320 So you love sailing.

00:17:25.620 So what is it about sailing that you love?

00:17:28.240 Now, what is it about something is asking for somebody for a personal opinion on something they do themselves.

00:17:36.240 So that's getting a little bit closer to, to who they are.

00:17:40.300 We're, we're aiming to get to who the person is, actually.

00:17:45.260 So if I ask their opinion about, you know, do you prefer this car to that car?

00:17:50.440 That's already personal because it's an opinion, but it's not an opinion that says too much about them.

00:17:56.800 But if I ask them about activities they do and, and how they really love doing one and love, not the other, they're starting to tell you about what sort of person they are.

00:18:07.760 So then if they, if they perhaps are talking about sailing, I don't know why I've chosen this subject because I don't sail, but let's go on with it.

00:18:16.100 So if they're talking about sailing, you know, I can ask, so what is it about sailing?

00:18:23.440 And they say, well, actually we go in four races.

00:18:26.360 I find that exciting.

00:18:28.060 I say, well, you know, so, so when you're racing, isn't, isn't that quite dangerous or something like that?

00:18:33.780 And then the person might say, oh yes, the more dangerous, the better.

00:18:36.560 You know, I just adore it when we're almost, you know, flat on our side and I'm lying with my back almost in the ocean.

00:18:43.240 I just adore that.

00:18:44.560 It's the, I get the kick out of it.

00:18:45.940 Well, you're, you're already starting to find out a lot about the kind of person they are.

00:18:52.520 And because the conversation has got gently into that, they're on a roll because they feel that you're, you're understanding where they're at.

00:19:01.900 So that was all to do with, you know, things that people do.

00:19:06.020 When you get onto what they feel about life in general, living life, being a human being, well, that's where you get really close to somebody.

00:19:19.300 And that starts happening when you ask them how they feel about stuff.

00:19:25.880 Up to now, it's all been thinking.

00:19:28.340 Now, feeling doesn't get a super good press.

00:19:32.380 I mean, it's improving these days, but it always used to be thought, you know, that thinking is the thing.

00:19:38.300 Feeling is a bit sort of wishy-washy and not to be trusted.

00:19:42.200 And it's like 18th century women who used to have the vapors and, you know, faint from, from nerves and things like that.

00:19:50.740 But feeling is, is where people really are at, what they feel about stuff, how they feel about the situation in the world.

00:20:00.600 And they always say that when you're, when you're giving a talk, when you're presenting, people will forget half of what you tell them, but they won't forget how you made them feel.

00:20:11.820 So I might go back to the sailing and say, so what does that feel like, you know, when you're in the race and you feel that you, you might even come in first.

00:20:22.600 And then somebody will tell you about it in a voice that changes, really.

00:20:28.560 It might be a voice that's super enthusiastic, which is one kind of feeling, but they might even go into something that is, is closer to their heart.

00:20:38.720 They might even say something like, it's the time I feel most alive.

00:20:43.060 It's the time I feel most me.

00:20:44.700 It's the time when I'm out there on the ocean and it's just me and the boat and, and I can hear my voice changing as I think of this scenario.

00:20:54.940 So feelings is the next thing.

00:20:58.120 People will often avoid feelings.

00:21:00.800 I used to ask a group once who all had children and I said, you know, so what is it like when, you know, you see your baby in bed to sleep?

00:21:10.880 And a lot of people obviously felt really emotional about that time, but they would reply in a bright voice.

00:21:18.080 Oh, it's just amazing.

00:21:19.300 I really love it.

00:21:20.280 I love that time.

00:21:21.780 But if you got really close, they wouldn't use that bright voice.

00:21:26.140 They would use a voice that was more, it's just amazing.

00:21:30.200 I, I cannot believe that I've got children.

00:21:32.800 I, it's the most beautiful time of the day for me.

00:21:35.780 And they go into a place where they are actually feeling that feeling they have watching their children as they speak to you.

00:21:43.640 And then, you know, you've got quite close indeed because they've, because feelings aren't things we share with everybody.

00:21:49.560 So then you get to there and then you're really, really starting to, well, talk on the same wavelength.

00:21:56.980 You, you literally are.

00:21:58.280 Your, your breathing starts to vibrate at the same time as each other.

00:22:02.480 I mean, you, you have got each other at that point.

00:22:06.020 You understand each other.

00:22:07.700 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:22:12.240 And now back to the show.

00:22:14.100 And I think an important point to make.

00:22:15.760 So, you know, this example we've talked about is you're going from talking about things sort of like small talk.

00:22:21.780 And this is for someone you don't know.

00:22:23.240 You're just sort of, you're out and about and you want to strike up conversation.

00:22:25.900 And getting to feelings probably most of the time is not going to happen in that one, that initial contact.

00:22:32.920 No.

00:22:33.380 Right.

00:22:34.040 Like sometimes, sometimes all you're going to get, you're just going to talk about the weather, talk about the line and that's it.

00:22:38.860 And that's okay.

00:22:39.740 That's, that's a fine conversation.

00:22:41.620 And then maybe you see that person again the next day or a week later, and then you might go to like what you do.

00:22:48.540 So this could take, this conversation could take weeks or sometimes even months.

00:22:53.320 Yes, that's absolutely right.

00:22:54.520 And you will find with, with some people that you don't go that far and you never go that far.

00:23:01.760 When, when you ask a question, which is perhaps going to a closer level, it's, it's like an invitation.

00:23:10.320 And the person either accepts the invitation or they don't, which is absolutely fine.

00:23:17.120 And so when I say something like, so, you know, what does it feel like when you're out on the ocean?

00:23:24.040 And said, oh, oh, great.

00:23:26.160 I have to also, you know, always check that the, I can't get the language now for sailing.

00:23:31.420 You know, I, I need to check the sails and, you know, make sure everything's all right.

00:23:35.040 And they've obviously not accepted that invitation in the way you meant it.

00:23:40.920 They've taken it back to something that feels, feels more appropriate to them, to the kind of conversation they're having.

00:23:47.500 And you will meet people who I very impolitely call widget people who always prefer to talk about technical things rather than getting, you know, getting close to somebody.

00:24:00.200 And it's a dance in the sense that you are flexible as a conversationalist, you are flexible.

00:24:08.360 And so you, you perhaps try something, just slip something out.

00:24:14.380 And then if it doesn't work, that's fine.

00:24:16.100 You go back to what they're used to talking about.

00:24:18.900 But with a lot of people, it's not like that.

00:24:20.680 Little by little, you, you do find you can get to a closer way.

00:24:26.140 And I think that is for many people a skill to be learned because I think there are plenty of people who perhaps get a bit frustrated with their conversations that we're always talking about things.

00:24:38.660 We're always talking about holidays.

00:24:39.680 We're always talking about, you know, well, that's all we ever talk about when they come to dinner.

00:24:43.540 And it's because nobody quite knows how one might go to something that is a little more connected.

00:24:52.200 Yeah, and I think that process that you laid out, going from things to doing to how you feel about what you do, can get you to those deeper conversations that a lot of us want.

00:25:04.780 Certainly, you know, certainly in your close relationships.

00:25:09.240 That's the way to get closer to people, is to go like that.

00:25:15.460 And I think many people have just never done that, actually.

00:25:20.360 They've never had intimate conversations.

00:25:26.040 I mean, often, you know, people sometimes say, oh, this is a girl-boy thing because, you know, in the playground, the girls are always standing in groups, you know, talking together.

00:25:34.980 And the boys are playing football, not talking.

00:25:37.920 But I don't think it's just that.

00:25:40.520 I think that we're all different and some of us find it harder than other people.

00:25:45.500 And that's where the skills really help, because you can go out and try them.

00:25:50.540 And the place to try is, you know, in the bread queue or whatever.

00:25:54.700 That's the place to give yourself little experiments.

00:25:58.340 See, OK, I'm going to have a little conversation this morning in my trip down to town.

00:26:02.040 Let's see if it's going to happen.

00:26:04.940 Not to give yourself a hard time, but just to play the game.

00:26:08.580 Let me see if I can just sort of toss out a little remark and see if I get a reply.

00:26:11.820 And then you can try different things in different contexts.

00:26:16.300 So then at work, you know, you say to yourself, OK, I'm going to speak in a meeting today.

00:26:21.920 And you work out how that's going to happen, how you're going to be listened to in a meeting and so on.

00:26:29.100 So we're talking about this idea that conversation isn't just about content.

00:26:31.840 We've talked about the content there, giving people ideas of what they can talk about.

00:26:35.880 Talk about things, talk about what you do, and maybe get to opinions and feelings and things like that.

00:26:40.500 But you said earlier that conversation is all about connection.

00:26:45.180 And a big part of the connection someone feels in a conversation is like the energy that the people bring to it.

00:26:52.780 So, you know, let's say you're trying to start off a conversation at the store.

00:26:57.240 You just want to make some small talk about just want to you want to connect with people like you want to feel like I'm socializing.

00:27:02.960 What sort of emotional state encourages that people wanted to play the game of conversation and join in your ball toss that you're giving them?

00:27:13.400 I think it's very important not to be stuck inside yourself.

00:27:18.600 I think those of us, this is many of us, those of us who are a little bit shy, a little bit reticent, we get self-conscious.

00:27:28.300 And self-consciousness is about, well, it says it, doesn't it?

00:27:34.320 It's about being conscious of yourself.

00:27:36.480 Now, if you're conscious of yourself, that's taking up all your space and you haven't got any space for somebody else.

00:27:42.920 So I'm not saying you shouldn't be self-conscious because we all have those feelings.

00:27:47.400 But we need ways to come out from all the stuff that's happening to us.

00:27:54.940 So what is happening when you feel anxious about an encounter?

00:28:00.560 Well, for a start, many people go a bit tense.

00:28:04.320 I'm tensing up my shoulders now.

00:28:06.100 As I tense up my shoulders, my voice goes a bit kind of funny.

00:28:09.500 So when you're tense, you don't look at ease to the other person.

00:28:14.340 And so that happens.

00:28:16.300 And then I have a voice inside my head, which I'm very used to.

00:28:22.120 And it's been saying stuff to me all my life.

00:28:24.060 And it's saying, oh, you shouldn't really talk to somebody.

00:28:26.120 And, oh, well, they won't reply anyway. 1.00

00:28:28.020 And, oh, you're going to make an idiot of yourself here. 1.00

00:28:30.660 And we have this inner talk, which a lot of us do really well. 1.00

00:28:35.100 And so everything's inside.

00:28:36.880 And then in terms of that sense of touch, we have that feeling inside us, which is really uncomfortable, that feeling of tension, of maybe nerves, maybe tightening in the chest and so on.

00:28:53.960 So when we're like that, we're not available.

00:28:57.480 We're just not available to other people.

00:28:59.200 I do have a little exercise, I suggest, for people.

00:29:04.160 And that goes on the theory that you can use your five senses externally and internally, but you can't do both at the same time.

00:29:14.880 So if I'm talking to myself in my head, I'm not listening outside.

00:29:22.180 So I'm not hearing anything that's outside.

00:29:23.940 If I'm seeing sort of pictures of disaster in my head of the last time I tried this and how awful it was, I'm not actually seeing what's in front of me.

00:29:33.420 And when I'm feeling in my tummy all that horrible, uncomfortable feeling of feeling tense, again, I'm not in touch with the outside world.

00:29:44.180 So the little exercise before you even start your conversation is make sure that you're looking out of your own eyes and seeing what's around you.

00:29:52.700 And you can even say it to yourself, you know, grey pavement, window, glass, you know, so that you're outside.

00:30:03.160 As far as listening goes, listen to the noises, listen to the noise of the streets, listen to what's outside you.

00:30:12.080 And while you're doing that, you're not listening to the voice inside your head.

00:30:15.700 And then in terms of touch and feeling, think about a different part of your body.

00:30:21.880 So, you know, wriggle your toes in your shoes and feel yourself lovely and grounded on the pavement.

00:30:28.100 So everything in you is externally focused.

00:30:31.840 That's a good start because it tends to stop that terrible inner talk for those few moments.

00:30:38.580 And you only need a few moments to get yourself to do these things.

00:30:42.640 The other thing that you can try that is really works surprisingly well is you want to be positive when you're going to have a little chat with somebody.

00:30:54.520 You want to be outgoing, positive, cheerful.

00:30:58.080 So think of a time.

00:31:00.760 Think of a time in your life when you've been enjoying yourself, for example.

00:31:05.000 So before you go out on this expedition, think of a time when you were really having a wonderful time and just remember how that was.

00:31:13.380 I can remember, for example, being on a beautiful, warm beach, feeling the sun in my face and thinking, oh, isn't it amazing to be on holiday?

00:31:23.100 Oh, really enjoying this.

00:31:24.520 And as I think of it, actually, I just took a big breath because there was a feeling of opening myself to this lovely sunshine and sand.

00:31:32.980 And then the trick of this exercise is to remember that feeling.

00:31:39.680 So just before I go out to town to perhaps have this little conversation with somebody, I remember that lovely breath I took on the beach.

00:31:47.820 I filled my chest.

00:31:49.980 And so I get a bit of that good feeling.

00:31:52.580 So I take those two things out with me.

00:31:55.280 I take external focus, seeing what actually is there in front of me, hearing what is actually there.

00:32:02.440 And I take a few of those good feelings, which I can practice any time, which just changes my physiology a bit.

00:32:09.920 It changes my breathing a bit.

00:32:11.180 It changes the way my shoulders sit, the way my neck moves, just relaxes me a bit before I do it.

00:32:19.900 So there's a couple of things that you can do.

00:32:22.400 And I think that having that sort of open, that positive feeling, it opens you up and it makes you more flexible.

00:32:28.860 So it allows you to respond to people better.

00:32:32.260 So, you know, even if someone, you throw the ball of conversation their way and they reject it, well, you're able to pick that up a little bit more.

00:32:39.260 And you're actually not, it doesn't bother you as much and you can move on.

00:32:43.000 But if you're anxious, like that rejection is going to make you feel even more anxious and more worse.

00:32:48.180 And it just goes down to like a death spiral.

00:32:50.660 So be positive.

00:32:51.860 I think your word flexibility, flexible, I think that's a really, really good, really good word.

00:32:58.440 So that you go in for a conversation, not knowing what's going to happen and not minding that you don't know.

00:33:09.800 Conversation is improvisation, improv, what do you call it?

00:33:14.420 It's, it is, it's improvisation.

00:33:17.080 So it's, it's a game and, and it can go anywhere.

00:33:21.520 It can go amazing places or maybe it just whitters out.

00:33:25.040 It doesn't matter because you're, you're up for being flexible.

00:33:29.480 And then when you're flexible, as you say, you open yourself out.

00:33:34.500 You take better breaths.

00:33:36.760 As you take better breaths, the oxygen goes to your brain.

00:33:40.460 You think better.

00:33:41.600 So you're more open to respond to what's actually is happening rather than what you feel should be happening or you ought to be doing.

00:33:50.180 And it's more fun, a lot more fun.

00:33:52.680 Yeah.

00:33:53.120 I like that idea of just thinking conversation is a game.

00:33:54.820 And that, that sort of framework can make it less threatening and encourage you to actually try it more often.

00:34:01.000 It's like, well, it's just a game.

00:34:02.000 If I doesn't work out, I'm, it's no harm, no foul.

00:34:05.360 I can try again.

00:34:06.340 Yes.

00:34:06.920 The other side of this is if you can think of it as a game, you, you give your, you give yourself a pat on the back for, for doing it.

00:34:16.300 All right.

00:34:17.840 So whatever happens, you know, I play a game of Monopoly, which I used to do years ago.

00:34:23.840 And I'd usually lose, but it was fun to play and I didn't sort of cry at the end if I lost.

00:34:31.760 So it's, it's about knowing that it, it doesn't matter.

00:34:36.440 I can give myself a pat on the back that I did it.

00:34:39.220 My challenge was, okay, I'll have a quick little conversation today when I'm out shopping or whatever.

00:34:45.580 And I give myself the brownie points of having done that.

00:34:49.480 I give myself, you know, pat on the back for having done that, whatever the outcome.

00:34:55.500 It's the doing of it that is actually good to do.

00:35:00.020 And people are, people are worried about things being a game.

00:35:02.520 They think it's not serious.

00:35:04.080 Actually, the best stuff is, is a game.

00:35:08.780 We have a, an actor in this country who you've probably heard of, which is Judi Dench.

00:35:14.960 And she always, she, she was in the Bond series for one.

00:35:20.560 She always loved doing stuff that was not film, but live.

00:35:28.680 Because she said, every time you go on stage, you do it differently.

00:35:33.960 And that's a person who has actually learned the words of a play and knows that she's going to say the same words each evening.

00:35:40.480 But each evening, she would do it differently.

00:35:43.240 And I think that's the way that the best professional musicians practice.

00:35:48.800 They practice, they do the same thing over and over again, but not by rote.

00:35:52.880 They do it like a, like a fun game.

00:35:55.720 Let me try it this way.

00:35:57.120 Oh, let me do this for a change.

00:35:58.880 And when you do that, actually, you get some surprises.

00:36:01.540 You find that there are things that you really think went well that you wouldn't have done if you hadn't just been playing.

00:36:09.800 So, yeah, again, you have to be flexible and you have to practice this.

00:36:12.100 You can't just, you have to learn by doing, basically.

00:36:15.320 And I think that's one thing, too, is people need to understand you're going to have, you're going to stumble.

00:36:20.040 There's going to be, you're going to do some things that are awkward.

00:36:22.780 That's okay.

00:36:23.380 Just learn from that mistake and then do better next time.

00:36:26.920 Yes, it's a fascinating thing in coaching.

00:36:29.760 I do a lot of coaching.

00:36:31.760 When you first learn to be a coach, people get very excited about powerful questions and asking the right questions.

00:36:37.580 I've discovered, and in the last few years, scientists working on the brain have corroborated this.

00:36:44.100 When you actually connect really well with somebody, it doesn't matter if you ask the wrong question because they more or less tell you it's the wrong question.

00:36:52.000 Or they answer the question they would like you to have asked.

00:36:55.400 In other words, it doesn't matter.

00:36:58.080 It really doesn't matter.

00:36:59.860 Those stumbles don't matter at all because you've got a connection going.

00:37:04.780 And it's the same with, well, it's the same with disagreement.

00:37:09.240 You know, people are often terrified of disagreement.

00:37:12.540 But actually, if you're connected, disagreement can be even fun.

00:37:17.780 It can be quite nice to have a robust conversation with somebody.

00:37:21.340 But what people tend to do when they disagree is they feel awkward about it.

00:37:25.720 So they do a load of extra stuff.

00:37:28.660 They perhaps get a little tense.

00:37:29.940 They perhaps turn their shoulder away.

00:37:31.420 They perhaps their voice goes a bit funny and they speak, oh, I don't agree with that.

00:37:36.700 And that in itself sounds quite aggressive.

00:37:38.940 But if you carry on talking in the same way as the other person and they say, you know, oh, I just paused for a moment because I realized I've got politics on my brain in this country at the moment.

00:37:54.500 I just thought I didn't want to talk too much about politics.

00:37:56.860 But if they say something like, for example, oh, I just love that law that they've just passed.

00:38:04.840 I think it's brilliant.

00:38:06.300 If I use the same voice, I can disagree quite happily.

00:38:09.740 I can say, do you know, I think it's the worst thing they've ever done.

00:38:13.040 Quite honestly, I do.

00:38:15.100 And because I didn't fight them in terms of tone of voice and in terms of my body language, disagreements are absolutely fine as well.

00:38:23.000 So the connection is the absolute number one thing.

00:38:27.440 Well, Judy, this has been a great conversation.

00:38:28.980 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:38:32.560 Okay.

00:38:33.200 Well, I have a website, which is judyapps.co.uk.

00:38:38.220 So they can go there.

00:38:39.500 I've given a TEDx talk.

00:38:42.080 So they can go to ted.com and look up Judy Apps. 0.77

00:38:45.540 And I give a talk on communication and how some of these things work, how being authentic and real works for people.

00:38:53.320 And then I've written five books, all in all.

00:38:56.460 The very latest one I wrote is called The Art of Communication.

00:39:01.000 And that really goes a step beyond the conversation book into looking at how you make really deep conversations with people.

00:39:12.500 It's the strap line is how to be authentic, lead others, and create strong, strong connections.

00:39:20.420 And it talks quite a lot about how our left and right brain work and how we can really go down to deep levels with people, even in ordinary conversations.

00:39:30.660 But there are four other books as well.

00:39:32.200 One's called actually Butterflies and Sweaty Palms, which is about getting nervous, performance anxiety.

00:39:37.560 So if in conversation you're finding that is your problem, that actually you suffer from nerves about speaking, Butterflies and Sweaty Palms is a short, really good book about helping you with that.

00:39:52.000 So I think that's it.

00:39:53.780 That's it.

00:39:54.160 A couple of books on voice as well.

00:39:56.260 I do a lot of voice work with people.

00:39:58.720 And, of course, I coach one-to-one.

00:40:00.980 There's my spiel.

00:40:02.240 Well, fantastic.

00:40:02.780 Well, Judy Apps, thanks for your time.

00:40:03.860 It's been a pleasure.

00:40:04.820 It's been a pleasure.

00:40:05.700 Thank you very much, Brett.

00:40:07.560 My guest today was Judy Apps. 0.76

00:40:08.840 She's the author of the book, The Art of Conversation.

00:40:11.180 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:40:13.380 Make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is slash art of conversation, where you find links to resources, where we delve deeper into this topic.

00:40:26.280 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:40:29.000 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles written over the years.

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00:41:00.160 Until next time, it's Brett McKay, reminding you to not only listen to the AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:41:05.500 We'll see you soon.

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The Art of Manliness - May 17, 2021

The Art of Conversation — A Guided Tour of a Neglected Pleasure

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