The Art of Manliness - The Art of Easy Discipline

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00:02:06.340 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast, which since 2008 has featured

00:02:11.180 conversations with the world's best authors, thinkers, and leaders that glean their edifying,

00:02:16.140 life-improving insights without the fluff and filler. The AOM Podcast is just one part of the

00:02:20.540 a key mission to help individuals practice timeless virtues through thought, word, and

00:02:24.800 deed. Also, be sure to explore our articles in artofmanliness.com, read the deeper dives

00:02:29.000 we do in our Substack newsletter at dyingbreed.net, and turn our content into real-world action

00:02:33.640 by joining the Strenuous Life program at strenuouslife.com. Now on to the show.

00:02:45.920 Most people assume that if a goal is hard to achieve, getting there has to feel hard

00:02:49.680 too. We tend to believe that extraordinary results require extraordinary suffering.

00:02:54.100 But my guest says the secret of success isn't gritting your teeth, it's making the path

00:02:57.540 enjoyable. His name is Zhao Zhang, and in his new book, Easy Discipline, he argues that

00:03:02.360 consistency comes from designing your work and your life so that doing the right thing

00:03:05.600 becomes something you actually want to do. Today on the show, Zhao explains the difference

00:03:09.320 between hard and easy discipline, why eating bitterness isn't the best way to go after

00:03:12.900 your ambitions, and how to make your work feel more like play without lowering your

00:03:16.400 standards. Along the way, we discuss Soviet hockey, Japanese tea ceremonies, rejection

00:03:21.420 therapy, one action goals, and the power of pursuing aims that are an expression of who

00:03:25.520 you are. After the show's over, check out our show notes at awimp.is slash easy.

00:03:41.280 All right, Josh Young, welcome to the show.

00:03:43.640 I'm so glad to be here, Brad.

00:03:44.660 So you got a new book out called Easy Discipline.

00:03:47.460 We're going to talk about what easy discipline means.

00:03:49.540 But I want to start off with how you started your book off,

00:03:52.160 because you started with the myth of Sisyphus, which is one of my favorite myths.

00:03:56.220 So for those who aren't familiar with it, what is the myth of Sisyphus?

00:03:59.980 So Sisyphus in Greek mythology is this king, and he's really smart.

00:04:05.400 And he's so smart that he tricked Zeus, the Greek god.

00:04:09.840 And he tricked him three times.

00:04:11.980 He even cheated death.

00:04:13.720 So Zeus was rage mad.

00:04:15.580 So he cursed Sisyphus to push a rock up a hill forever.

00:04:21.360 And just right before the rock would hit the mountain, the rock would roll back down to the bottom.

00:04:28.200 And Sisyphus would have to go back down to the bottom and push it again.

00:04:31.720 And he does this over and over again for eternity.

00:04:34.780 So I'm sure you've seen this picture of this guy pushing up a rock forever.

00:04:39.220 That symbolizes the futility of our effort.

00:04:42.020 So sometimes our work, our daily life feels like we're Sisyphus, which just keeps going, but can never reach the top.

00:04:49.960 And we often think, man, Sisyphus, he just must be really depressed about this.

00:04:54.680 But you flip this interpretation on its head and you think, well, let's think about this another way.

00:04:59.720 Yeah, because first of all, this is not real.

00:05:02.660 This is like Greek mythology, right?

00:05:04.580 But I was thinking, what was this curse on?

00:05:07.920 Is this curse on Sisyphus?

00:05:09.780 Like, is he brain dead?

00:05:11.120 Is he just body controlled like a zombie? 0.58

00:05:14.220 Then if that's the case, he's already dead.

00:05:16.420 You know, this is just a horror show, not necessarily some sort of tragedy.

00:05:20.440 But if this were to teach us something, that also means if Sisyphus has agency, if he's

00:05:27.920 the one who, can he choose to push the rock?

00:05:31.500 If he could, that must mean that he actually going back to the bottom with the rock on

00:05:38.200 purpose.

00:05:38.540 He was the one who chooses to push the rock up forever, even though he never hits the top.

00:05:44.940 So if he had agency, then what's the reason for him to do this?

00:05:48.860 You know, after the first try, the second try, maybe the one millionth try, because this is forever, right?

00:05:55.000 He must have given up, just do something else, you know, have some hot pot or something.

00:05:58.780 But he continued to do it.

00:06:00.820 That only means probably one thing.

00:06:03.140 He loves pushing rocks.

00:06:04.280 So instead of being forced to push rocks, if he loved to push rocks, then this is not a curse. This is a huge blessing. Zeus just built Sisyphus, an exercise machine that's better than Peloton or CrossFit combined.

00:06:19.780 So that's where I got this idea from.

00:06:22.900 If Sisyphus loves to push rocks, of course he wouldn't stop.

00:06:26.400 And this is not a tragedy.

00:06:28.000 This is a great endeavor.

00:06:30.300 If it happened in modern times, people would make statues for Sisyphus and people would invite him for TED Talks and talking about how disciplined he is and what kind of work ethic he has.

00:06:42.780 And the thing is, in modern times, though, if you see the people who are real mountaintops, right, the people who are at the best of industry, the people who are, you know, breaking through, the people who are redefining industries, those are the people who are like Sisyphus, the better version of Sisyphus.

00:07:03.920 they choose to push the rocks

00:07:05.740 because they enjoy the work

00:07:07.060 and in reality

00:07:08.240 they not only make it to the top

00:07:10.500 they make one top to another

00:07:12.320 and they just keep going

00:07:13.500 so that's how I flipped the story of Sisyphus

00:07:16.420 from a tragedy to like a hero story

00:07:19.520 yeah I think Albert Camus

00:07:21.280 the existential writer

00:07:22.560 he talks about this too

00:07:23.640 and he does the same sort of thing

00:07:24.840 I mean he looks at the myth of Sisyphus

00:07:26.340 and you think

00:07:27.080 well he's probably just depressed

00:07:28.320 and he's like no let's

00:07:29.740 let's imagine Sisyphus happy

00:07:31.480 you know he's happy just pushing this rock up

00:07:33.920 And this ties into your idea of easy discipline because, yeah, I think oftentimes when we

00:07:38.760 think about being disciplined, we look at people who do great things, who exercise every

00:07:43.200 day, who build big companies, who write books, and we think, oh my gosh, they're just using

00:07:48.520 all this willpower.

00:07:49.500 They're just white knuckling through this.

00:07:51.240 But you're thinking, your approach is, no, most people who do things consistently, hard

00:07:56.640 things consistently, they probably actually really enjoy what they're doing, and that's

00:08:00.960 why they do it.

00:08:01.920 So yeah, that's easy discipline.

00:08:03.040 And I guess you contrast easy discipline with hard discipline.

00:08:07.280 Can you describe how you describe hard discipline in your book?

00:08:11.040 Yeah, the hard discipline is really our society worships this idea that you have to tolerate pain to succeed.

00:08:19.580 Because great endeavors are great achievement.

00:08:22.900 It feels like the achievements are hard.

00:08:25.680 That means you must also feel hard.

00:08:28.900 Who can tolerate more pain to have the great success?

00:08:32.340 but the thing is that's the wrong way to think about it because if you only love the result

00:08:37.420 which is success money whatever you know recognition but you don't like the process

00:08:42.120 you just think okay if i can hold this long enough somehow i can get to the other side of this

00:08:47.240 that you know the rainbow and hit the gold pot and most people think this way what end up happening

00:08:53.320 is they never make it and even if they make you know they give up because this is against human

00:08:58.940 nature. Just like in physics, if something, like pushing a rock up, in physics, if the gravity is

00:09:06.080 against you, you're going to forever feel like you're in pain. You're going to forever feel like

00:09:10.720 you're looking for the next out. You're looking for the next reason to quit. And then when you

00:09:15.300 quit, you're like, okay, let me take a break. Let me have some fun. I'll come back to this.

00:09:18.900 The problem is often we never come back to this. So that's why, you know, if you see New Year's

00:09:24.720 resolutions right about 50 percent of people make a new year's resolution every year you know we're

00:09:30.300 gonna lose weight make more money find love whatever that is you know get a promotion start

00:09:34.720 a company but the thing is only nine percent of people who make the resolution keep it that's

00:09:40.060 because they only set the resolution for results and they think the results is what they want and

00:09:45.860 they don't like the action you know to get there you need a consistent exercise in the dieting

00:09:51.240 you need to network, you need to do all kinds of things you don't enjoy. But people rely on

00:09:57.120 hard discipline and they fail. Yeah. So you're Chinese and there's this saying in China that

00:10:03.080 you talk about this idea where you're focused on the results, but you don't actually want to do

00:10:08.200 the thing to get you those results. I mean, it's high eyes, low hands disease. What is that? Flesh

00:10:14.320 that out for us. Yeah. This is the disease people described me when I was little. So it literally

00:10:20.240 means your eyes are set on high goals you want to achieve all kind of things whether you have this

00:10:26.920 ambition in life or you just kind of uh you know want to have a new resolution or maybe just

00:10:33.360 motivated for today but the low hands meaning you can't do it you can't execute on your ambition

00:10:39.420 you know i i had this roommate when i was in college and every day like almost every day he

00:10:45.940 would talk to me about his dreams i'm like cool so he wants to go to las vegas and start a gym

00:10:51.700 in las vegas and he's so passionate about it he's talking about this every day but his everyday

00:10:56.620 action has nothing to do with that he just he just goes home and watch tv every day and i'm like

00:11:02.300 that's that's a classic high eyes low hands disease you say you have high dreams you tell

00:11:07.280 everyone about it but you don't do anything about it that's hard discipline yeah because they don't

00:11:11.220 actually like to do the thing that will get them to that goal. That's true. They just want the end

00:11:16.340 result, but they don't do it. When you talk about in the book, how in Western culture, we really

00:11:21.220 moralize and valorize people who use willpower and grit their teeth. And they do things even when

00:11:27.960 it's uncomfortable and unpleasant. But this idea isn't unique to Western culture. You talk about

00:11:33.240 in China, where you're from, there's this idea of eating bitterness, which is interesting. I love

00:11:38.300 that phrase, eating bitterness. What does eating bitterness mean? Yeah, if just anywhere you are,

00:11:43.740 you grab a person who speaks Chinese, you know, who's familiar with Chinese culture. If you ask

00:11:48.880 them, they will say, yeah, that's really the fundamental culture in China when you're a

00:11:53.820 student. The teachers will constantly tell you to eat bitterness, meaning you have these ambitious

00:11:59.080 goals and sometimes very honorable goals, right? The idea is to get there. You need to have a real

00:12:05.020 discipline, you need to do the hard work without complaining, right? Eating bitterness. And then

00:12:11.060 if you eat enough bitterness, you get to your goal, whether that's an individual goal or a

00:12:15.460 collective goal. Now, the thing is, I hate eating bitterness. I suck at eating bitterness. I didn't

00:12:21.100 want bitterness. I'm always like, yeah, I'm going to eat enough, you know, let me work hard. And

00:12:26.680 it's just not sustainable. I don't want to eat the bitterness for the rest of my life,

00:12:30.580 Or even for the rest of the project, you know, even I can finish one project, the next one, I'm like, give me something sweet.

00:12:37.120 And that's really why I wrote this book about how do you find the sweetness in your work rather than bitterness.

00:12:43.540 Yeah.

00:12:44.060 And I love in the chapter, you just kind of described the difference between easy and hard discipline.

00:12:48.980 You have this great story from the Soviet hockey team.

00:12:53.720 And for a while, they were the dominant team in hockey.

00:12:58.200 And I think a lot of people thought the Soviets were so good because they were not human. 0.88

00:13:03.120 They were robots. 1.00

00:13:04.600 And there was some truth to that.

00:13:05.840 But if you look at the story more, there was actually a period where they took the easy

00:13:10.840 discipline approach to success.

00:13:12.600 Tell us about these different philosophies in the same Soviet team.

00:13:16.360 Yeah.

00:13:16.720 So the background of the Soviet team was the Cold War, right? 0.86

00:13:21.420 So after World War II, the Soviet Union was like, you know, we're going to be good at

00:13:26.120 hockey because hockey started in Canada. And Russia was just like Canada in a completely 0.85

00:13:32.160 different political system. They were vast. They were like, we're so cold and we need to be good

00:13:37.500 at hockey like the Canadians. So they asked this guy, his name is Tarasov, Anatoly Tarasov.

00:13:45.120 He's like, can you build a Russian team, like a national team for us? And he was not a hockey

00:13:51.360 coach to start he was like a watchmaker but this guy was really smart but also he's very artistic

00:13:56.680 so he was like okay i can build this team so he didn't have a game tape right he just knew the

00:14:02.520 rules and so he was like how do i design a team that is fun so he he used tactics from you know

00:14:11.300 chess from ballet from watchmaking he built this team of this intricate passing and the the players

00:14:20.040 instead of like the Canadians just racing up and down,

00:14:23.080 they're fast, they're strong. 0.69

00:14:24.800 The Russians were skating diagonally

00:14:26.560 to have this beautiful passing game.

00:14:28.980 It's almost like a tiki-taka soccer, you know,

00:14:31.860 and that's like 50 years later.

00:14:34.500 So he built this scheme, but more importantly,

00:14:37.680 he built a team that people loved each other.

00:14:41.160 You know, it's funny that because of this

00:14:42.900 during the Cold War and we have this stereotype

00:14:45.380 that, you know, these Russians,

00:14:46.900 they were just like machines. 1.00

00:14:48.600 they would like bite people, right?

00:14:50.060 They're just biologically engineered people 0.71

00:14:52.640 who just made to play hockey.

00:14:54.340 That's why they were so good, right?

00:14:56.160 They, in fact, won, like,

00:14:57.840 they had like 70% gold medal rate

00:15:00.800 for the Olympics and also world championships

00:15:04.160 for like 40 years.

00:15:05.820 That was insane.

00:15:06.760 That was insane.

00:15:07.960 So he built this team and the players love the game.

00:15:10.820 And, you know, in fact, he had a requirement that,

00:15:12.820 you know, if you don't love the game, don't play.

00:15:14.620 You got to smile.

00:15:15.780 So the players love the game.

00:15:17.360 The players loved each other.

00:15:18.840 The players loved him.

00:15:20.360 They saw him as this fatherly figure.

00:15:22.820 And they all worked really hard, but no one complained.

00:15:25.500 People loved it.

00:15:26.680 And that's the classic example of easy discipline.

00:15:29.860 He made the game so much fun and so much camaraderie and so much love for each other that people naturally worked hard to achieve the result.

00:15:38.880 Now, that was only half the story.

00:15:41.520 Because he was the Soviet team.

00:15:43.540 He was for the first almost 20 years, right?

00:15:45.720 He built this dynasty.

00:15:47.360 They just kept winning.

00:15:48.880 And then he got fired because, of course, right, he didn't get along with the Soviet top brass.

00:15:55.020 So he got fired.

00:15:56.760 And the guy who succeeded him was the protege of the chief KGB boss in Soviet Russia.

00:16:04.840 And he used Tarasov's scheme because that was proven to be successful.

00:16:09.380 But his motivation tactics was completely the opposite.

00:16:13.480 He borrowed like KGB tactics or military training tactics or even animal training tactics.

00:16:19.620 He locked these players up and trained them as hard.

00:16:23.420 He used fear tactics.

00:16:25.320 And he was this totally ruthless boss.

00:16:27.420 And if you think, you know, in the U.S., we think Bobby Knight, right, was the guy who was like this big bully, but he got the results.

00:16:35.520 So Tikhanov was this coach.

00:16:37.200 He was this Bobby Knight times 10.

00:16:39.260 People hated him, but people feared him.

00:16:41.460 So they also work hard and they also succeeded.

00:16:45.260 And that's really the irony of the story.

00:16:47.320 It's different if I write a story of like a romance that only love can win, right?

00:16:53.420 Only easy discipline can win.

00:16:55.620 No, hard discipline can win too.

00:16:57.980 But the problem is people hated him and people quit, you know, they quit their hockey early.

00:17:05.780 And the players all looking back in those days, they were like, those are my, I mean,

00:17:10.300 They got a bunch of gold medals, but they were saying, my youth was wasted.

00:17:15.540 No one really liked him and sometimes didn't even respect him as a person because he was so ruthless.

00:17:21.700 And he didn't have any invention.

00:17:23.660 He won, but he didn't define the sports the way Tarasov did.

00:17:29.440 So I use the contrast of Tarasov and Tikhanov to see this easy discipline versus hard discipline.

00:17:36.180 Yeah, I think it's a great story, a great encapsulation.

00:17:38.340 And I think the takeaway, I think I loved how you said like hard discipline does work.

00:17:42.740 It can work, but it's not sustainable in the long run.

00:17:46.900 No, especially not on the personal level.

00:17:49.140 And if you just cycle in all kinds of people and just run them to the ground and you get

00:17:53.080 the next talent, I mean, you can do it.

00:17:55.940 People do it.

00:17:56.960 But the thing is, would you want to live in that world?

00:17:59.340 And also, would you want to be that kind of a boss to be a big bully for the long term?

00:18:03.600 Well, so what you do in this book is you lay out some principles on how to embrace easy

00:18:07.740 discipline.

00:18:08.100 It's an acronym. I love it. It's easy. E-A-S-Y. The first principle is enjoyment. And this is

00:18:13.560 all about enjoying what you do, what we've been talking about. If you're going to push rocks up

00:18:17.700 a mountain for eternity, well, you might as well enjoy it if that's your thing. And with each of

00:18:22.060 these principles, you've developed tools people can use to put them into practice. For the enjoyment

00:18:26.680 one, the tool to kind of, you know, flip on the switch of enjoyment is something you call

00:18:31.360 the game changer. What is that? And what does that look like in practice?

00:18:35.080 So the game changer is you're given a task.

00:18:39.160 Maybe you're at work and you don't enjoy your work.

00:18:42.300 I mean, in fact, a lot of people don't.

00:18:44.900 We would love to say everyone loves their work.

00:18:46.680 They will find their calling.

00:18:47.900 But most people actually just do it for the paycheck or they do it, try to get to the next level.

00:18:52.480 Right.

00:18:52.640 They don't necessarily enjoy the work.

00:18:54.840 And that's why sometimes it's hard for them to succeed.

00:18:57.360 If you don't enjoy your work, you get stuck.

00:18:59.240 You just do your thing and then you move on to the next task.

00:19:03.820 So I call this game changer, meaning if you don't enjoy your work, try to play a different role.

00:19:10.360 Try to change the game.

00:19:11.620 Don't play a game that everyone else is playing.

00:19:14.580 You know, you change it to a different game.

00:19:16.780 I'll give you an example.

00:19:17.560 So I used to hate making sales calls because deep down, I don't feel like I'm a pushy salesperson.

00:19:25.220 You know, and sometimes I have a hard time to make that ask, you know, to make that push.

00:19:29.680 So I was never good at sales until one day I started switching roles.

00:19:35.760 I started playing a different game.

00:19:37.400 I'm like, okay, instead of trying to play the game of see how much I can sell,

00:19:42.200 what if I change my role?

00:19:44.600 What if I play a different game?

00:19:45.800 Let me play a game of being a consultant.

00:19:49.600 Let me be an advisor or even counselor.

00:19:52.580 So when I try to talk to people now, even the prospect or whatever,

00:19:56.280 I try to understand what his or her issues are, you know, what their biggest challenges are, and just keep asking questions.

00:20:05.040 And I would be like, okay, if after this call, if I can understand their issue more than they do, and if I can even articulate the problem they're facing, I can help them.

00:20:14.740 So that's the role change I do.

00:20:16.540 You know, that's a game, different game I play.

00:20:18.620 And then the result was amazing, you know, because now I've become a way better salesperson if I ask the right questions.

00:20:24.160 if I try to learn the other person

00:20:27.380 rather than just try to make a sale.

00:20:29.540 If I don't focus on that result I hate,

00:20:32.360 I actually get better at that result

00:20:35.160 because I play a different game that I love.

00:20:38.380 So that's really a game changer.

00:20:40.440 You can do this in writing,

00:20:42.220 in sales, in management, in leadership.

00:20:45.740 If you don't like what you're doing,

00:20:47.220 change your goal, change your game

00:20:48.840 to something you love so you can get behind.

00:20:51.320 Yeah, I've seen that with fitness.

00:20:53.240 So a lot of people, they want to exercise regularly.

00:20:55.580 And so maybe they start something that they see on Instagram or YouTube and they hate it.

00:21:01.120 And so they just stop.

00:21:03.000 And I'm like, well, you need to just find something you like doing and you just haven't found it yet.

00:21:07.440 So try some different stuff.

00:21:09.140 And once you find that exercise is just going to be something you enjoy doing, you're never going to miss a workout because you just love doing this thing.

00:21:15.660 Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:16.640 So I changed my game in this particular realm as well.

00:21:20.380 You know, I, ever since I was a teenager, my uncle told me, you got to become stronger.

00:21:25.040 You know, you're a man, you know, this is the art of manliness, right?

00:21:27.500 So he had this very, you know, kind of a little bit old fashioned way of seeing manliness.

00:21:32.560 It's like, you got to be able to be very strong.

00:21:34.880 So, you know, if someday a woman is with you, she needs to feel she's protected.

00:21:39.660 So you need to go exercise, run, lift weight, you know.

00:21:43.260 So I love my uncle and I did what he said.

00:21:46.040 But the thing is, I hate this idea of going to a gym and lifting weight.

00:21:50.240 Because I was like, you know, what do I do?

00:21:51.980 Do I do this? Do I do that?

00:21:53.440 And I started running like five miles a day.

00:21:56.040 And then it was never sustainable.

00:21:57.620 It was great for a week.

00:21:58.600 And after that, it's over.

00:21:59.980 So until I started playing a different game,

00:22:02.640 like what really changed for me is P90X.

00:22:05.240 You know, I mean, I'm sure you've heard this.

00:22:06.440 In the late 2000s, early 2010s, Tony Horton,

00:22:10.240 he invented this kind of home gym stuff where you don't have to think.

00:22:14.080 He built a program with a huge variety.

00:22:16.640 And then you just pop, you know, back then it was a DVD.

00:22:19.460 You know, you pop the DVD in your TV.

00:22:21.440 You just do what he does and you just follow him.

00:22:23.740 He's really funny.

00:22:24.940 And that's a complete game changer for me because now I don't have to think.

00:22:28.880 I just follow what he does.

00:22:30.080 It was fun.

00:22:31.080 Now, every day, I still like almost two decades now, I still do it.

00:22:35.560 And not P90X, but I do different programs.

00:22:38.480 You know, I follow this woman.

00:22:39.820 Her name is Caroline Gerben.

00:22:41.260 I love what she does.

00:22:42.400 And so she does YouTube.

00:22:43.700 I just follow her and also I bought a peloton now every day I work out I cannot not work out

00:22:49.880 I don't feel good if I don't work out because the things I'm doing is so much more fun than the ways

00:22:55.220 I was doing before all right so the first principle is enjoyment and one tool for that is to figure

00:23:00.560 out how you can reach the same goal but do it with an approach you actually like doing you're

00:23:05.600 changing the game another tool you have for this enjoyment principle is the momentum loop what's

00:23:10.520 the momentum loop momentum loop is if everything that you do is repetitive if every day your work

00:23:17.120 is similar right what you want is you want to build momentum into your work i mean i learned

00:23:23.380 this uh you know play uh settler of katan you know now it's just called katan right so in katan

00:23:29.080 everyone has a similar action so you take turn in buying stuff and the stuff will bring you more

00:23:34.300 resource you can buy more stuff and in the end see who has the most stuff wins you know basically

00:23:39.000 It's kind of like Monopoly.

00:23:40.820 But the thing is, the people who win are always the people who are very aggressive to build momentum at the beginning.

00:23:47.140 So if in every turn you do your hardest to trade and build the most up, and then those actions will have better results.

00:23:53.780 And the more results will get in, will actually catch momentum on its own.

00:23:58.120 So eventually, you become a flywheel, right?

00:24:00.780 You just keep going and the momentum will carry you forward.

00:24:03.940 So every day, if you do the same task, I tell people, build momentum into your work.

00:24:09.000 The thing that you do, try to learn from what you did yesterday

00:24:12.460 and then apply that exact thing to what you're doing today.

00:24:17.180 And then you learn the stuff you do today and apply that tomorrow.

00:24:20.840 So in a way, when you're doing things, you start catching momentum, mental momentum.

00:24:25.740 And the thing that you do 20 days down the road

00:24:28.960 will actually be way better than what you're doing right now.

00:24:31.380 You become expert quick.

00:24:33.060 You become better result quicker.

00:24:34.980 So that's what I call momentum loop.

00:24:36.580 And you talk about how you used momentum loops on this crazy experiment you did. And it's kind of what puts you on the map. It made you famous because it went viral. It was this idea of 100 days of rejection therapy, where you reduced your fear of rejection by deliberately seeking it out.

00:24:54.140 So instead of avoiding situations where someone might say no, you intentionally went around making these unusual and uncomfortable requests.

00:25:03.180 So, you know, for example, you asked a stranger to borrow $100.

00:25:06.080 You asked a homeowner if you could play soccer in their backyard.

00:25:09.600 You asked a Southwest Airlines employee if you could make an announcement over the intercom.

00:25:14.440 Tell us more about your rejection therapy experiment and how you used momentum loops in it.

00:25:20.420 So I did this about a decade ago.

00:25:22.200 My long-time dream was to be an entrepreneur.

00:25:25.160 So I built my company.

00:25:26.500 I was trying to look for funding.

00:25:27.680 I got rejected with investment.

00:25:29.600 And I found out how much I hated rejection.

00:25:32.520 And the number one thought that came to my mind was, I want to quit.

00:25:36.080 So I was like, I can't feel like this.

00:25:37.840 I've got to be tougher.

00:25:38.880 I've got to be more fearless toward rejection.

00:25:41.500 So I did this thing called 100 Days of Rejection Therapy.

00:25:44.040 The idea was, instead of running away from rejection, you look for rejection.

00:25:48.900 And you do this for 100 days.

00:25:50.600 And, you know, I film myself doing this

00:25:52.560 and I make a, you know, YouTube vlog at the time

00:25:56.100 and I will share this with the world.

00:25:58.200 Because if I do this by myself, I'll quit easily.

00:26:00.500 But if I share this with other people,

00:26:02.480 people hold me accountable.

00:26:04.020 And my vlog was viral with millions of views.

00:26:06.580 In fact, if you go to TikTok nowadays

00:26:08.980 or even YouTube and TikTok,

00:26:10.460 you see a lot of people doing rejection therapy.

00:26:12.740 And many of them started

00:26:13.940 because they saw me doing this a decade ago.

00:26:16.240 It's sometimes crazy.

00:26:17.340 It's crazy you start a movement

00:26:18.640 that it just keeps going and someone else is doing it.

00:26:21.460 That's really funny.

00:26:22.720 But I did this for 100 days.

00:26:24.480 So the trick is, and people are telling me,

00:26:26.620 no, man, John, what you're doing is hard.

00:26:29.060 I can't do it.

00:26:30.140 It's rejection. 0.99

00:26:30.900 This sucks. 0.94

00:26:31.580 How can you do it for 100 days? 0.98

00:26:32.760 It must be really courageous.

00:26:34.620 I was like, no, I was just having fun.

00:26:36.700 I was having a great time.

00:26:38.300 You know, it wasn't courageous.

00:26:40.120 Looking for rejection was fun if I saw it that way.

00:26:42.980 So I made sure I had fun.

00:26:44.340 But more importantly, I tried to apply what I learned today

00:26:48.000 to tomorrow. So I started coming up with a whole list of ideas. You know, I would try to observe

00:26:53.520 how my interaction went. And then I wrote down, not just wrote down, I actually wrote to other

00:26:58.380 people. I shared my learnings. I started tabulating an amazing list of negotiation tactics, you know,

00:27:05.500 how my posture should be when I talk to people, what my energy should be. Should I smile? And

00:27:10.100 how do I put the other person at ease? If that person says no, how do I turn the no into a yes?

00:27:14.860 And how do I position my request, my question in a way that I get more yeses?

00:27:20.080 So I started tabulating these learnings and I became so good, so good.

00:27:25.740 And I rejected, like at the end, I feel I can ask anyone, anything, anywhere.

00:27:30.080 And then there's a better chance I get a yes and a no.

00:27:32.580 And so much so that I developed a career out of this.

00:27:35.180 You know, companies start saying, man, this guy knows what he's talking about.

00:27:38.880 Our people are afraid of rejection, you know, our salespeople or our employees.

00:27:42.600 So let's invite him to give a talk.

00:27:44.860 So I started speaking at different companies

00:27:46.780 and I became one of the top speakers

00:27:48.920 for over 10 years now

00:27:50.520 because I started just catching momentum.

00:27:53.560 I started writing down everything I learned

00:27:56.100 and I started applying to real world experiences.

00:27:59.260 And you're having fun while you're doing it.

00:28:01.280 A hundred percent.

00:28:02.480 I think rejection therapy became this popular,

00:28:05.580 become this fun is because, you know,

00:28:07.600 people see the joy in this.

00:28:09.620 And this is a huge paradox.

00:28:11.460 How do you find joy in the most painful thing

00:28:14.000 people are afraid of but if you flip it if you add knowledge and add enjoyment and add momentum to it

00:28:20.860 you can totally have fun you can totally make this a piece of art my favorite one and i always laugh

00:28:25.720 when i read it you were at a fast food restaurant and you went up to the front and you asked them

00:28:30.800 for a burger refill like like you'd ask for a drink refill that which are free and you're like

00:28:35.720 hey can i get a burger refill yeah again the thing is the reason i was able to do this is

00:28:42.240 because I'm going to have, you know, I was like, I got to have fun, right?

00:28:44.860 If I don't crack myself up, I'm not doing this right.

00:28:47.560 So I thought, what's funny?

00:28:48.920 Let me just ask for a burger refill.

00:28:51.100 And the guy said no.

00:28:52.580 Oh, he said no.

00:28:53.520 He said no.

00:28:55.160 But the thing is, after he said no, I stayed engaged.

00:28:57.740 I kept smiling.

00:28:58.480 I kept making jokes.

00:28:59.880 I kept like trying to negotiate.

00:29:02.500 And I didn't feel bad anymore.

00:29:04.420 Like the first day, I felt bad after making that request because I was so scared.

00:29:09.140 But second day, I was way calmer because I started building momentum.

00:29:13.180 I started learning from the first day.

00:29:14.680 I started learning that I can stay engaged after the initial rejection.

00:29:19.040 I don't have to feel too bad.

00:29:20.300 Yeah, I love that.

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00:33:47.980 Okay, so the first principle and the easy acronym is enjoyment.

00:33:51.280 And then the second principle is A for artistry.

00:33:54.280 And you say there are two mindsets we can take to whatever it is we're doing.

00:33:58.860 It's the mechanic mindset and the artist mindset.

00:34:01.760 What's the difference between the two?

00:34:03.960 Yeah.

00:34:04.360 So the mechanic, I see this in the entrepreneurial lens.

00:34:07.600 So the mechanic in entrepreneurship is the one who's like, I just want success.

00:34:11.680 I want to succeed.

00:34:12.680 And how do I engineer my way to that goal?

00:34:16.040 So in the startup world, there is this thing called a lean startup.

00:34:19.440 So basically, you learn. You're an evolutionist. You have this idea. You just iterate. You just learn new things and see how it works. And so you build the most basic thing called MVP, the most ugliest, cheapest thing. Then you try to get user feedback. You put this in people's hands and see how they use it. And then you improve it. You learn. Eventually, you build an amazing product. So after a thousand iterations, this thing is amazing.

00:34:45.680 So I call this the mechanic mindset because the thing is, it usually doesn't work.

00:34:51.100 There's actually, you know, 15 years since the startup came out, there's actually a pretty strong study to say this actually doesn't work.

00:34:57.680 Because sometimes if you just want to succeed and you started with the worst thing, like the MVP, a lot of times people wouldn't give you the chance to improve it.

00:35:07.720 Sometimes people are not drawn to it because it's so ugly, right?

00:35:11.180 Because it's not good.

00:35:12.560 And I call this the mechanic mindset.

00:35:15.660 The other mindset is the artist mindset, which was, okay, what product can I make that I love?

00:35:22.980 What is a thing that I can do that moves me?

00:35:26.620 Instead of trying to say, what can I do to actually succeed?

00:35:29.920 What moves me?

00:35:31.260 What's an expression?

00:35:32.380 Like if I can make a product that's an expression of who I am, then I can have a better way to succeed.

00:35:37.580 And that could also go longer.

00:35:39.120 I mean, the classic example, I mean, I actually hate to use Steve Jobs as an example because so many people are, you know, I mean, so overused, right?

00:35:47.880 But the funny thing is, if you study Steve Jobs, he is famous for making, you know, iPhones or computers.

00:35:56.880 He wants to make the inside of those products beautiful.

00:36:01.020 And he would stare at the screws inside the iPhone.

00:36:04.760 He would stare at the circuit boards inside the Mac.

00:36:08.100 And he was like, we got to make this beautiful.

00:36:10.120 We got to make this so, you know, so symmetrical. 0.68

00:36:12.640 And the engineers will be like, are you crazy?

00:36:15.220 You know, no one's going to see this.

00:36:16.900 People are going to see the outside of the product, not inside.

00:36:19.880 But he's like, no, if you're an artist,

00:36:22.760 that, you know, you want to make sure the inside is as beautiful as the outside.

00:36:26.400 And then when they finish the product,

00:36:28.460 they spend a lot more time to actually make the inside even more beautiful.

00:36:32.400 And he would ask the people to sign the product.

00:36:36.380 And it's like, you know, artists always sign their work.

00:36:39.660 And if you look at Steve Jobs, right, he sees himself as an entrepreneur.

00:36:43.360 You know, people think he's a technologist, he's a great designer.

00:36:47.100 But the word he describes himself the most is artist.

00:36:49.960 That's what I say the artist's mindset.

00:36:52.420 The artist's mindset is you want to make things beautiful.

00:36:56.240 You want to make things that make you happy.

00:36:58.980 You want to make things that move people.

00:37:00.820 If you see actually the products that we love, whether it's computers or cars, the people who, the most successful ones, they make products that people love.

00:37:12.320 They didn't make the most ugly product.

00:37:14.320 They either with their way to success.

00:37:16.600 They actually make stuff that resonates with people.

00:37:20.360 And that's what I call the artist mindset.

00:37:22.600 You lean deep into your emotions and build something that's beautiful, that make you proud, and then you succeed.

00:37:28.960 And one of the tools you have for this principle is the idea of this Japanese tea ceremony.

00:37:34.900 Ichigo Ichi, did I say that right?

00:37:36.960 Ichigo Ichi.

00:37:38.120 Yeah, Ichigo Ichi.

00:37:39.600 How can this Japanese tea ceremony help us approach things more like an artist?

00:37:44.240 So one day I went to Japan and they have this traditional tea ceremony.

00:37:49.140 If you've ever been to Japan, that's something I highly recommend.

00:37:52.240 Not because it's so fancy, but because it's so central.

00:37:57.400 So basically you sit there with the host

00:37:59.540 and then the host will serve your tea

00:38:01.780 and then she'll make moves and talk to you.

00:38:04.100 And the thing is, you are so present in those moments.

00:38:08.440 When you're at the tea ceremony,

00:38:09.520 you're not thinking about trying to achieve

00:38:11.640 some sort of result.

00:38:12.820 I wasn't there trying to impress the host

00:38:14.520 and make some sales.

00:38:16.000 No, I'm just there to be present

00:38:17.820 and enjoy that moment,

00:38:19.720 enjoy that conversation with the host.

00:38:21.940 So Ichigo Ichie literally means one life, one meeting.

00:38:25.240 In that moment, I'm meeting that host for the only time in our lives.

00:38:30.440 Even if I meet her later, and in fact, even if I meet her every day, that moment is something that cannot be replicated.

00:38:39.420 I need to be fully present.

00:38:40.540 I need to be fully enjoying it.

00:38:42.260 I need to give my best.

00:38:44.020 By having that mindset, I start taking that mindset into everything I do, into every meeting I have, into every conversation I have.

00:38:51.760 I start to be like, how can I make art?

00:38:53.660 How can I have the most fun?

00:38:55.240 How can I make this conversation most impactful and meaningful?

00:38:59.200 Just, I'm enjoying this the most.

00:39:01.180 So when I have that mindset, I start talking differently.

00:39:04.740 I start acting differently.

00:39:06.220 I start not having fear.

00:39:08.100 Before, when I have sales meetings or conversations,

00:39:11.360 at the back of my mind, I always had a goal.

00:39:13.960 The goal was whether to make a sale or maybe make the other person like me.

00:39:17.920 What ended up happening was I'm so goal-oriented that I'm not very present.

00:39:22.120 In fact, I'm very fearful because what if I'm not getting to my goal?

00:39:25.880 What if I'm not liking this conversation?

00:39:27.800 I started contorting myself in a way, trying to make the other person like me,

00:39:31.160 and the other person doesn't like me that much as a result.

00:39:33.740 But by having this artist mindset, I lean into these conversations,

00:39:37.560 and all I wanted was to have fun.

00:39:39.980 And I can say the weirdest thing.

00:39:41.760 I can make the weirdest joke.

00:39:43.000 I have no fear because I'm making art in those conversations.

00:39:47.260 I end up having way better conversations.

00:39:49.280 I end up having like way better sales calls and consultation calls and coaching calls

00:39:54.420 because I lean in and lean deep.

00:39:56.900 So that's what Ichigo Ichi taught me.

00:39:59.560 I love that.

00:39:59.880 So you treat every moment as a Japanese tea ceremony.

00:40:02.840 Be present.

00:40:03.860 Make it one of a kind.

00:40:05.040 I love that.

00:40:05.920 So another principle is systems.

00:40:09.080 And this one's interesting because on the surface,

00:40:11.500 it looks like you're taking a hard discipline approach to life.

00:40:15.320 So what do you mean by creating systems?

00:40:17.060 and how does this encourage easy discipline?

00:40:20.060 Yeah, like with easy,

00:40:21.280 there are four different characters.

00:40:23.320 You see the enjoyment is the happy-go-lucky guy, right?

00:40:26.220 Just go with the flow.

00:40:28.580 And the artistry is the person who goes deep,

00:40:30.660 who's like, you know,

00:40:31.500 what can I make this most amazing thing?

00:40:33.480 And system is a completely different character.

00:40:36.360 It's like this accountant, this factory worker,

00:40:38.760 just clocks in and clocks out.

00:40:40.500 But what I'm saying is,

00:40:42.120 first of all, you should already love your work.

00:40:44.360 You should already love the work.

00:40:45.680 But how can you get the most of your work?

00:40:48.720 How can you actually get even more effort based on something you love?

00:40:53.000 And that's what I call systems.

00:40:54.720 So there are a lot of systems.

00:40:55.980 Like the thing I learned the most was from one of the most creative guys you will see.

00:41:00.740 So Jim Collins, he wrote this amazing book, Good to Great and Built to Last,

00:41:06.780 two of the most transformative books in business history.

00:41:09.760 But if you ask him, what is his secret?

00:41:12.120 And you would think like, maybe he had a AI 20 years before we all did.

00:41:17.460 Maybe he was just really smart.

00:41:19.420 And then of course he was, or maybe he is like doing psychedelics, being so creative.

00:41:23.820 No, he's got a system.

00:41:25.220 He's like, my secret is he had a spreadsheet and he had a clock.

00:41:29.260 So he would, every day he wants to, he has this like a 1000 hour rule, meaning in 365

00:41:36.180 days in a year, he won't have over a thousand hours of creative work.

00:41:41.400 and use a clock to clock himself in and out

00:41:44.340 every day he's doing creative work.

00:41:46.220 And he will put that on a spreadsheet.

00:41:48.380 And he's like, you know, he's having so much fun

00:41:50.060 when he does that clock in and clock out and write it down.

00:41:53.480 People think that's crazy, but he's got systems.

00:41:56.560 And that system enabled him to keep track,

00:41:59.680 to do his creative work and to be highly disciplined.

00:42:03.760 I mean, he's been doing this for decades.

00:42:05.780 So every time he looked back through for 365 days,

00:42:09.360 his creative time has never dropped below 1000. And that's what enabled him to be so prolific

00:42:15.180 in writing books and being so creative. And if you look at the people who succeed in the long

00:42:21.740 term, they all had a system of some sort. So Stephen King, you know, right, he writes 1000

00:42:27.100 words a day, he just does it. And there are people who do the most creative work in the morning,

00:42:31.300 you know, and they will be like, this is the time I do it. So they do time blocking.

00:42:35.120 So whatever system, you want to have a system that helps you to make sure that you do this work.

00:42:41.520 And you don't have to think, when should that work?

00:42:43.920 You just automatically do it.

00:42:45.520 So that's why I think being system smart is really important.

00:42:49.120 You know, people think about book smart and street smart.

00:42:52.080 I talk about system smart.

00:42:53.820 Can you have the right system for you to do the work so you don't have to think about it?

00:42:58.700 How have you used this principle in your own life?

00:43:02.360 Oh, yeah.

00:43:02.880 Oh, yeah.

00:43:03.180 Every day.

00:43:03.760 Every day.

00:43:04.080 So I built this thing called one action goal, meaning to achieve an outcome I want, I just focus on an action.

00:43:11.660 You know, I don't just focus on the goal.

00:43:13.760 I focus on the leading indicators, namely the actions that would take me to the goal.

00:43:18.880 So I'll give you a personal example.

00:43:20.920 I have a lot of business examples, but I'll give you a personal example.

00:43:23.600 I wanted to be a better father.

00:43:25.140 At the time, I had a little kid.

00:43:26.500 The kids were two, you know, three to four, five.

00:43:29.900 And just to be honest, I didn't like kids that much.

00:43:32.140 And I mean, I love them. I love all of them. I would die for them for sure. But I didn't enjoy spending time with kids. And as a result, I wasn't good. You know, every time I'd be like, this is my duty. You know, I want to be a good father. So let me play with them. That was classic heart discipline. My goal was to be a better father, but I didn't enjoy the action. So I was eating bitterness. And how could I be a good father if I'm eating bitterness, you know, being there with my kids?

00:43:58.060 So I said, okay, what can I do to actually make this easy?

00:44:01.680 How can I turn this into easy discipline?

00:44:03.820 So I built a system.

00:44:05.380 Instead of focusing on the result of being a better father,

00:44:09.380 I built a system to make me spending better time.

00:44:12.980 So I had this system called magic time.

00:44:17.040 So I would set these goals,

00:44:19.540 whether that's some sort of helping us

00:44:21.760 to do some house chores or to go to bed on time.

00:44:25.340 I would set these goals for the kids.

00:44:26.720 if they achieve those daily goals,

00:44:28.820 I'll give them a poker chip.

00:44:30.040 When they get 10 poker chips,

00:44:31.700 we'd go on a father-son date,

00:44:33.740 you know, over the weekend.

00:44:35.060 On those dates, I would be an artist.

00:44:37.320 We would just do all the craziest things.

00:44:39.220 We'd have the most fun.

00:44:40.140 For example, we'd go to the store

00:44:41.300 and have the kids push me around

00:44:43.100 and we'd take a nap at the dog food pile in a shelf.

00:44:47.540 We would take a nap on the dog food

00:44:49.260 and we'd build like a fortress using toilet papers.

00:44:53.160 And anyway, so we'd have the most fun

00:44:55.000 and the kids loved it.

00:44:56.720 And I loved it.

00:44:57.940 So one, they started being much more responsible.

00:45:01.060 They started trying to fulfill their goals, I said, for them because they bought that poker chip.

00:45:04.800 And the result of all their effort is spending time with me.

00:45:08.460 So we both value these times.

00:45:10.020 We're very open about this.

00:45:11.080 We try to have a great relationship.

00:45:13.640 And now they tell me I'm a great father.

00:45:15.600 So I'm very proud of that.

00:45:16.800 So that's the one example of this one action goal, going on father-son days with kids that enabled me to achieve my ultimate goal, which is be a better father.

00:45:26.720 All right. So find a one action goal. So how would a one action goal differ from

00:45:31.300 the way people typically set goals? Yeah. Most people set goals to our outcome goals.

00:45:36.640 If you've seen your resolution, you're seeing people, I want to lose 20 pounds. I want to find

00:45:41.680 love this year. I want to start my own company. I want to get promoted. I want to make, I don't

00:45:47.060 know, $500,000. Like I want to make a million dollars this year. People write these words down

00:45:52.400 And those are meaningless because they're just there.

00:45:56.140 In fact, by the time February rolls in, you're already giving up.

00:45:59.380 I mean, these goals that started out as inspiration became laughingstock.

00:46:03.660 I mean, it became some sort of distraction because you lose confidence every time you

00:46:07.480 look at it.

00:46:08.200 You're so far away from the goal.

00:46:09.840 So I don't believe in outcome goals.

00:46:12.100 I mean, I believe them, but I don't focus on them.

00:46:14.800 I said New Year's resolution says, this year, my goal is to have 50 Father's Son days.

00:46:21.180 I want to exercise 500 hours and I want to write for 1,000 hours.

00:46:27.140 You know, so these are the one action goals that I set.

00:46:30.880 Goal to be something I do.

00:46:33.020 And if I achieve those goals, and by the way, I track them every day on the spreadsheet,

00:46:36.540 just like Jim Collins did.

00:46:37.740 And I have my own flavor.

00:46:39.280 I build my own color scheme into it.

00:46:41.460 I build my range to see if I'm on track or if I'm off track.

00:46:45.600 So I build all these tools to actually encourage myself, keep going.

00:46:48.280 And that in itself becomes fun.

00:46:51.180 But by focusing on this one action goals, I get way better results.

00:46:56.220 I became way more disciplined and I achieved those outcomes.

00:46:59.600 Yeah, I love that.

00:47:00.540 So I've done that with my own stuff, especially with fitness.

00:47:03.080 I always go back to fitness goals because I think it's a very visceral example of putting these ideas into practice.

00:47:09.040 But for me, I don't really set goals.

00:47:10.980 I need to be able to lift this amount of weight or hit this PR by this date.

00:47:14.740 I did that early on when I started lifting.

00:47:17.140 But after a while, I kind of shifted to just, I just need to make sure I train on the days I'm supposed to train.

00:47:22.960 That's the one action.

00:47:24.200 And as a result, I don't get too distracted by the goal, like that big goal of hitting certain numbers.

00:47:30.640 But because I'm consistently doing the thing, those results just naturally happen.

00:47:37.080 Absolutely.

00:47:37.700 That's a classic example of one action goal.

00:47:40.240 Focus on what you do, not what you're trying to get.

00:47:43.400 Okay.

00:47:43.660 Yeah. Another part of this system's principle is you have this tool called repetition with

00:47:47.800 variation. What does that look like? So if you have a repetitive work, if everything you do is

00:47:54.820 like, you know, your work is similar to what you did yesterday. So sometimes when you do that,

00:48:00.860 you feel like, again, you feel like Sisyphus, like the worst version of Sisyphus, right? You

00:48:04.620 push the block every day, you're repeating yourself. But what's happening is your progress

00:48:10.640 would stall and sometimes your progress both in term of result but also you're learning because

00:48:17.440 your mind is so used to it you you go into autopilot and it's no longer fun and then you

00:48:23.380 no longer be able to handle variations what if things change right what if your environment

00:48:28.780 change what if your uh your company change what if things change and sometimes people are you know

00:48:35.000 when they are so into this one thing this system that they keep doing they cannot handle change

00:48:40.040 What I tell people is you actually should build change

00:48:43.040 into your daily routine, daily work.

00:48:45.500 And you repeat, but it has variation.

00:48:48.140 That's what I call repetition with variation.

00:48:51.500 So the thing is, what if every day you do the same work,

00:48:54.640 but you actually manufacture a different environment?

00:48:57.840 What if you play a different role every day when you do this?

00:49:00.860 So now not only you're doing the work,

00:49:03.200 you have variation in the work.

00:49:04.820 You're having more fun in the work,

00:49:06.700 But also you train your mind to be more adaptable to different environments.

00:49:12.040 You develop mental strength.

00:49:13.900 And, you know, an example I used was the team who won the, you know, NBA championship two years ago was the Boston Celtics.

00:49:21.060 And the Boston Celtics is an interesting story because they have been knocking on the door for years trying to win the championships.

00:49:27.380 And they're always at the precipice, right?

00:49:29.200 They're always in the final four of every NBA season, but they could never get to the top until this new coach came in.

00:49:36.180 his name is joe mazula and what he does is he's this master of repetitions with variation he will

00:49:42.760 try to change his training his practices in a different environment every day so one day he

00:49:48.940 would ask people to to play without dribbling so everyone would just pass the ball you can only play

00:49:55.320 you know without dribbling so you run and you get open you try to pass the ball to each other

00:49:59.660 And the next day, he would try to play Mozart in the background.

00:50:04.240 So no talking in practice.

00:50:05.920 Everyone just stays silent and they just silently packing each other.

00:50:08.620 They're like making art.

00:50:09.900 And the next day, he was like, let's play football style.

00:50:12.520 So people tackle each other on the basketball floor.

00:50:15.140 So when you have this variation, what ends up happening is you are able to build this mental resilience and being very adaptable to what happens every day.

00:50:25.480 and the result of this practice is actually much more favorable you know to the players because

00:50:30.820 they learn they adapt and they have more fun so that's what i call repetition was variation i like

00:50:36.600 that one all right so the final principle is why and it's for yourself it's like what's this

00:50:43.280 principle all about what are you trying to get at with this principle to make discipline easy

00:50:47.500 discipline yeah so yourself is is to me is actually the most important thing you know

00:50:52.580 are your goals or what you're doing an expression or a reflection of who you actually are you know

00:50:59.580 we're all different right we'll have different affinities we'll have different you know characters

00:51:04.460 we'll have different you know personalities so sometimes when we have goals and you know that

00:51:12.220 whether those goals are given to us by our parents or by our boss or by you know by whoever

00:51:16.220 or those maybe those goals we learn ourselves we give to ourselves you know and we think

00:51:22.340 that's what we should do. Sometimes we started performing an act that's not who we are. So I was

00:51:28.400 the same. I was that person, you know, when I was in China. So I came to the United States as a

00:51:32.780 teenager. But when I was 14, I met Bill Gates in China. You know, he actually went to China to

00:51:38.880 promote Windows. I was mesmerized by his story and his entrepreneurial journey. I thought, okay,

00:51:45.040 I know what I want to do with my life. I want to be the Chinese version of Bill Gates. I want to

00:51:50.000 IPO my company. I want to make billions

00:51:52.100 of dollars. That's what I

00:51:53.820 wanted. And again,

00:51:56.120 no one gave me that goal. I gave myself

00:51:57.980 that goal. And I chased that goal for

00:52:00.120 I don't know, over 20

00:52:01.960 years. And everything I did

00:52:04.000 was toward that goal. You know,

00:52:05.940 the thing is, what ended up happening was

00:52:08.040 the things I was doing,

00:52:10.420 I mean, I liked that goal.

00:52:12.060 I didn't like the actions that goal required.

00:52:14.320 You know, even though I became pretty

00:52:15.880 good at those actions, built like three different companies,

00:52:18.120 none of them were Microsoft. Some of them were successful. But the thing is, during the pandemic,

00:52:24.020 and a lot of people started having some mental health issues, and so did I. So to make myself

00:52:29.340 feel better, I started writing again. And when I wrote, I just felt better. I felt good. I felt

00:52:35.060 I didn't want to stop. When I stopped writing and going back to my work, I felt like saying

00:52:39.680 goodbye to a lover. And then I found out, man, deep down, I'm a writer. Why should I chase after

00:52:46.380 this dream based on these activities that that's not me you know i could do them i could build

00:52:51.980 product i could hire and fire i could raise fun but i feel much better when i was writing and

00:52:57.860 expressing ideas that's who i am so i changed my goal i changed my career i'm like i'm stop trying

00:53:04.560 to be bill gates i may just be the best writer i can be let me build a career out of who i am

00:53:10.020 So now, you know, I'm equally, if not more ambitious than I was before.

00:53:14.880 I work more hard, but I feel every day I do as this author, as this speaker, I am having

00:53:21.720 so much of a better time.

00:53:23.180 I have achieved true happiness, not just success, but happiness, you know, knowing my relationship

00:53:29.520 with the world.

00:53:30.860 So going back to yourself, the best way to success, to succeed in whatever you do, you

00:53:37.240 are the best weapon.

00:53:38.460 Like your personalities, your affinities.

00:53:40.420 What do you like to do?

00:53:41.460 What makes your soul sing?

00:53:43.100 What makes you happy?

00:53:44.340 Those are not just hobbies.

00:53:46.080 Those are things that can become potent tools

00:53:49.100 on your way to achievement.

00:53:51.140 And that's why I say yourself is,

00:53:53.380 I mean, I leave that as last,

00:53:55.620 but also I think that's probably the most important thing.

00:53:58.040 Yeah, so you got to figure out who you are

00:53:59.980 so you can do who you are.

00:54:01.500 Yeah, yeah, you do you.

00:54:03.100 Yeah, you do you, yeah.

00:54:04.020 And I guess that requires just paying attention

00:54:05.840 while you're in your work or in your life.

00:54:07.920 Like, what is the thing that just makes me feel most alive, makes me feel the best, like

00:54:12.120 you were describing, and then pay attention.

00:54:14.000 Like, what are the things that I do that make me just feel awful and then not do that?

00:54:18.840 And then figure out a way to, you know, apply these other principles, like maybe the game

00:54:22.760 changer tool, maybe bring an artistry.

00:54:24.800 It might mean you have to just change careers completely.

00:54:26.900 I know for me, when I started my career, I thought I was going to be an attorney.

00:54:30.040 And the reason I wanted to be an attorney is I thought, well, that sounds like a good

00:54:32.820 career.

00:54:33.240 It pays well, and it's respectable, it's prestigious.

00:54:36.760 And I enjoyed law school, but then I got my first internship at a big law firm.

00:54:41.960 And that's when I got my first case of heartburn.

00:54:44.220 I was working at this law firm.

00:54:45.480 I was like, this is probably not good for me.

00:54:48.320 I'm already having heartburn and I don't even have a full caseload yet.

00:54:52.140 So I didn't become a lawyer.

00:54:54.780 I'm doing this instead because this is the thing that I enjoy doing.

00:54:57.420 Yeah, Brett, you're the quintessential example of easy discipline.

00:55:00.620 You found this thing that you didn't know before, this writing, this podcasting.

00:55:05.300 And then you build a whole career out of the thing you make.

00:55:08.140 And this is who you are.

00:55:09.200 This is actually, you know, like, like way better expression of who you are than being a lawyer.

00:55:14.420 And I'm sure you'll be a good lawyer, but you're an amazing podcaster because you love this thing.

00:55:20.240 You lean into it.

00:55:21.160 You can make art with these conversations and then you build systems and this is who you are.

00:55:26.720 Are there any tools for this yourself principle that you like that can help people become the best version of that self?

00:55:33.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:34.640 Totally. So one of the best way to be who you are is to move, you know? So I call this the

00:55:40.600 movers versus shakers. Shakers are the people who try to be like, you know, hard discipline their 1.00

00:55:47.980 way to success. They shake themselves, right? It's like, man, why can you be more successful? 1.00

00:55:53.280 What can you do better? So you start just shaking your own shoulders, right? It's like shaking some

00:55:57.200 other people's shoulder, try to wake them up. You do it to yourself, be better, you know,

00:56:01.500 work harder and what ended up happening is you start doing hard discipline you started losing

00:56:06.740 confidence you start hating yourself and a mover which was how do i move to a better environment

00:56:13.220 so i can be better like i can let myself out more how can i find an environment where i can have a

00:56:18.220 better chance of being myself so um i use this class example there's a story ancient china so

00:56:24.960 there's this woman she's widowed she has her little boy and so she moved to a village and

00:56:30.220 And, you know, she want her son to be a scholar in ancient China, being a scholar is held in high esteem.

00:56:36.560 So in that village, there is like a funeral happening every day and people are crying and there's funerals.

00:56:42.280 And then the little boy, he will start mimicking those crying.

00:56:45.180 He was mimicking those ceremonies and stuff.

00:56:48.000 And his mother is like, I can't raise him in this environment.

00:56:51.660 Let me move.

00:56:52.420 So they moved to a big city.

00:56:54.400 And in the big city, the little kids started mimicking markets, like merchants and shouting and negotiating.

00:56:59.600 And then his mom is like, nope, let's move.

00:57:02.460 She moved him next to like a famous academy, like a school.

00:57:06.800 It's like a school housing.

00:57:08.560 So she moved him there.

00:57:10.320 And then he started mimicking those scholars.

00:57:13.060 And he started, you know, doing the writing and speaking and bowing.

00:57:17.340 And then he became one of the most famous philosophers in Chinese history.

00:57:21.080 And that story of moves, three moves of Meng's mother.

00:57:25.000 So this guy, his name is a Manxious, famous scholar and famous philosopher.

00:57:28.720 But his mother is literally more famous than him because this move, instead of her shaking her son to become successful, to overcome the environment, what she did was to move to an environment where he would naturally succeed.

00:57:45.120 Now, you don't have to do this yourself.

00:57:47.240 You don't have to move.

00:57:48.120 I mean, it's fine if you move, right?

00:57:49.740 Move to, I mean, there's a reason people in technology tend to go to Silicon Valley, people in finance tend to go to New York, all right?

00:57:55.660 So there's this natural centers where if you move to there, you're more naturally to achieve your goals.

00:58:01.820 But you can actually shape your everyday environment so you can be a better self.

00:58:05.900 So I do every day, you know, to be a better rider.

00:58:10.200 I don't ride at home.

00:58:11.540 I don't like the environment.

00:58:12.800 So what I do is I drive 45 minutes every day to this place, to this beautiful beach here in Northern California called Half Moon Bay.

00:58:20.720 I would drive there and park my car on the beach and just over a cliff.

00:58:24.020 I would just like, I would ride in my car.

00:58:26.820 I don't bring my phone because I'm not there to fight,

00:58:30.080 you know, the temptation of getting online doom scrolling.

00:58:33.780 You know, I would do that all day if I could.

00:58:35.820 But I leave my phone at home.

00:58:37.120 I don't have internet.

00:58:37.960 So I go there, face the beach, face this great environment.

00:58:41.860 And without internet, I ride every day on my computer for hours.

00:58:46.080 This is an example where I move to an environment

00:58:48.880 where I can be the best self.

00:58:51.000 Yeah, so that's the tactic I use.

00:58:52.520 I like that tactic.

00:58:53.540 I've used that too in my own life.

00:58:55.380 Well, Zhao Zhang, this has been a great conversation.

00:58:56.880 Where can people go to learn more

00:58:57.680 about the book and your work?

00:58:59.100 Yeah, so they can subscribe to my sub stack,

00:59:01.520 but also my book comes out in July.

00:59:03.760 So if you know someone in your life

00:59:05.580 who you feel like they have high-ass, low-hands disease,

00:59:08.640 they have big goals, but they're not that disciplined,

00:59:11.100 buy this book for them.

00:59:12.120 I mean, they're going to thank you.

00:59:13.580 I love it.

00:59:14.200 Well, Zhao Zhang, thanks for your time.

00:59:15.100 It's been a pleasure.

00:59:15.840 Thank you for having me, Brett.

00:59:18.740 My guest name is Zhao Zhang.

00:59:19.900 He's the author of the book, Easy Discipline.

00:59:21.600 It's available on Amazon.com.

00:59:22.940 in the bookstores everywhere.

00:59:24.240 You can find more information

00:59:25.040 about his work

00:59:25.440 at his website,

00:59:26.280 zhazheng.com.

00:59:27.220 Also check out our show notes

00:59:27.960 at aom.is slash easy

00:59:29.460 where you find links

00:59:30.060 to resources

00:59:30.600 when we delve deeper

00:59:31.240 into this topic.

00:59:39.460 Well, that wraps up

00:59:40.440 another edition

00:59:41.040 of the AOM Podcast.

00:59:42.080 If you haven't done so already,

00:59:43.040 I'd appreciate it

00:59:43.680 if you take one minute

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00:59:47.420 And if you've done that already,

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00:59:49.100 Please consider sharing the show

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00:59:51.900 of something out of it.

00:59:52.640 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:59:54.920 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:59:56.340 Remind you to listen to anyone's podcast

00:59:57.700 with Put What You've Heard into Action.

The Art of Manliness - July 14, 2026

The Art of Easy Discipline

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