The Art of Manliness

00:00:00.000 Hey, it's Brett. It's Labor Day here in the United States. We're taking a break from new

00:00:03.100 episodes. So we're going to rebroadcast episode number 738, the character traits that drive

00:00:07.660 optimal performance with retired Navy SEAL Rich Divini. It's one of our most popular

00:00:11.620 episodes back in 2021. Hope you enjoy it. We'll see you on Wednesday with a brand new episode.

00:00:23.540 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Now, why do some

00:00:27.660 people who look like can't miss high achievers on paper end up floundering in life, while those

00:00:31.700 who can seem like underdogs end up flourishing? When my guest noticed this phenomenon while being

00:00:35.340 involved in the selection process of veteran SEALs for a specialized command, it led him to the

00:00:39.380 discovery that beneath more obvious skills are hidden drivers of performance, which he calls

00:00:43.120 attributes. His name is Rich Divini, and he's a retired Navy SEAL commander and the author of

00:00:47.080 The Attributes, 25 Hidden Drivers of Optimal Performance. Today on the show, Rich discusses

00:00:51.820 the difference between skills and attributes and how the latter can't be taught but can be developed.

00:00:55.660 We then talk about the difference between optimal and peak performance before turning to the attributes

00:00:59.420 which drive the latter. We get into a discussion of the components of grit, the difference between

00:01:03.040 discipline and self-discipline, why you should become something of a humble narcissist, and much

00:01:06.720 more. And we enter a conversation with how to figure out the attributes you are and aren't strong in

00:01:10.460 and which you need for getting to where you want to go. After the show's over, check out our show notes

00:01:13.920 at aom.is slash attributes. All right, Rich Divini, welcome to the show.

00:01:27.720 Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

00:01:29.480 So you got a book out called Attributes. We're going to delve deep into this today. And this is

00:01:34.800 based on your experience as a Navy SEAL and also someone who's trained Navy SEALs and other special

00:01:41.440 operators. And you start out the book talking about how this idea of attributes really hit home to you

00:01:46.740 when you were training a seasoned Navy SEAL in close quarter combat. And he was having a hard time

00:01:54.280 with it. And you couldn't figure out why. Because I mean, it's like on paper, this guy, it looks like

00:01:59.360 he should have gotten this. But then you kind of had this real epiphany that I was looking at the

00:02:05.900 wrong thing. So walk us through that story. And how did this lead you to this idea of what you call

00:02:09.740 attributes? Yeah. So the training we were running was for a specialized command. And so it was a

00:02:14.900 separate selection and assessment training course where seasoned and experienced SEALs would apply

00:02:21.540 and then come to this particular course. And then we'd put them through like a nine-month selection

00:02:26.240 process. And we were getting, even in that, about a 50% attrition rate. So 50% of the guys were not

00:02:32.620 making it. And these, again, these are experienced guys. And up until that point, before I took over

00:02:37.140 training, we did not have as a command any real good explanations as to why. And obviously, it was

00:02:45.700 bothering us because we'd want to articulate it. But it also, it was also kind of detrimental because

00:02:52.220 we weren't able to tell the candidates why. You know, the things like, you know, you couldn't shoot

00:02:56.620 very well or you couldn't jump. I mean, these are all experienced guys. So it didn't make sense. So

00:03:01.340 so I was tasked with trying to find a better way to articulate it. And what I recognized in this

00:03:09.300 course that was that we were, we were actually looking at the wrong things. We were looking at

00:03:13.480 performance in the wrong way. And of course, you know, close quarter combat, which really for

00:03:17.540 for your listeners is the, the act of clearing, going into and clearing a room and or a building in

00:03:23.940 several rooms. And it's what you have to do when you're, you know, trying to find a bad guy or rescue

00:03:28.220 hostage or something like that. And it's a very dynamic, fast paced, active and dangerous

00:03:34.380 environment. So you have to be very specific about the way you conduct yourself, conduct your weapons

00:03:41.140 handling, move, communicate, but it also requires a whole different set of qualities, you know,

00:03:48.280 the ability to think fast, recognize, adapt, be resilient. And so, and so ultimately, it, it made me

00:03:54.880 have to deconstruct performance, which is something I actually found I really liked to do and, and say,

00:04:01.440 okay, what's the difference between performance and ultimately gave me the insight to separate

00:04:07.660 these things, skills, which are these learned qualities that tell us how to do something

00:04:12.660 and attributes, which are these innate qualities that are truly describe and inform the way we show

00:04:18.100 up. And so that was the impetus. And, and in doing so, we were able to conduct the same training we

00:04:22.020 were always conducting, but explain performance in a much different, much deeper way.

00:04:27.340 Yeah. So, I mean, you couldn't tell that guy, if he's having a hard time, well, you're doing this

00:04:30.360 wrong. Like he was probably doing the skilled part, right? Like he was doing, but there was something

00:04:34.940 high, like underlying that, that was causing him to not be able to display that skill.

00:04:39.960 That's correct. And it's not even, I mean, it's not even the, it was more that they weren't

00:04:44.480 able to do the skills correctly or the way we needed them to do the skills yet. They were skills

00:04:53.100 that almost every SEAL has, right? So it was kind of, it was just a weird situation and saying,

00:04:59.080 Hey, you know, you couldn't do this, but, but the reason why is not necessarily because you can't do

00:05:04.560 the skill. It was because we're looking for these, these other qualities that inform the way you do the

00:05:09.140 skill. And the way I would describe that is, you know, shooting is a skill. I, you know,

00:05:12.800 let me just back up here. A skill is, is not inherent to our nature, right? So we don't,

00:05:17.720 we're not born with the ability to drive a car, ride a bike or shoot a gun. So you can teach those

00:05:21.980 things. You can be taught those things. And the skills also direct our behavior in, in known and

00:05:26.920 specific environments. So here's how and when to drive a car, how, how, and when to shoot a gun.

00:05:31.760 And so, and they're very easily seen, which means they're very easy to measure and score and put

00:05:36.120 stats around. Attributes are different. They're inherent to our nature and they're harder to see. So

00:05:40.620 we're all born with levels of adaptability and resilience and, and situation awareness. And of

00:05:45.620 course they develop over time and experience, but, but you can see levels of these things in small

00:05:49.520 children and instead of directing or dictating behavior, attributes inform behavior. So, so for

00:05:56.200 example, my son's levels of resilience and perseverance informed the way he showed up when he

00:06:01.540 was learning the skill of riding a bike and he was falling off a dozen times doing so. So they kind of

00:06:06.160 inform our behavior and because they're hidden, they're difficult to see. They're most visible

00:06:09.920 in stress challenge on a certainty when, when the environment becomes unknown and uncertain,

00:06:15.140 because in an unknown environment, it's very difficult, if not impossible to apply a known

00:06:18.640 skill. And so in separating that, what, what we recognize is that, you know, you can, you can

00:06:23.940 teach people skills, but you can't necessarily teach people attributes. And in this environment

00:06:30.420 of CQC, sure. We could, we could teach a guy how to shoot a gun and hit a target, but what we

00:06:35.300 couldn't necessarily teach is how to run into a room and rapidly assess the environment within

00:06:40.720 milliseconds, understand who's bad and who's not, and then put a precise bullet where the bullet

00:06:45.860 needed to go all happening within milliseconds. Right. And so, so you start to, we were in an

00:06:51.120 environment where attributes became very, very important and everybody showing up to the training

00:06:55.440 had the skills, but we just needed to see those skills conducted at a level where the attributes

00:07:01.360 were predominant. And one thing you argue the book, the whole thing about focusing on attributes

00:07:05.840 is about getting improved performance quality. Yeah. And you make this distinction and performance

00:07:11.720 between performing optimally and peak performance. I think most people, they go, you got to go for

00:07:16.920 peak performance, but you make this case, well, maybe sometimes, but usually not. What's the

00:07:22.120 difference between optimum and peak performance? Yeah. Optimal performance just gives us a much broader

00:07:26.740 way to look at performance holistically. I mean, peak is great, but, but what people have to

00:07:31.680 understand about peak is it's an apex. That's all it is. And it's, and from any apex, you, all you can

00:07:36.260 go is down. Right. So, and peak often has to be prepared for and scheduled and planned, right? The pro

00:07:42.200 football player spends his entire week planning and preparing so that he may peak for three hours on

00:07:48.720 Sunday. Right. And so, and so when you think about performance, you know, you know, seals, and I think

00:07:53.940 this applies to life, but seals really, people always say, well, seals are the, the, the best

00:07:58.700 performing peak performers. Right. And I said, well, that's, that's not really true because seals are

00:08:04.500 more optimal forms. Optimal performance tells us that and recognize the fact that, you know, well,

00:08:10.740 it means how can I do the very best I can in the moment, whatever the best looks like in that moment.

00:08:16.460 Right. So sometimes that looks like peak performance. It's like, okay, everything's clicking.

00:08:20.380 There's flow states. It's awesome. Right. But sometimes the best we can do in the moment is

00:08:24.180 like, I am head down, I'm grinding it out. I'm taking step by step. Right. That's all I got.

00:08:29.500 It's ugly. It's dirty. It's, it's, it's gritty, but that's all I got. And that is optimal performance

00:08:34.260 as well. And so looking at performance from an optimal aspect allows us to do a couple of things

00:08:39.600 that allows us to both, well, first pat ourselves on the back when we're just grinding it out and it's

00:08:44.420 dirty and it's ugly and it's gritty and it doesn't feel that good, but we're just moving. Right. Which by the

00:08:48.340 way is how a lot of seal missions go. I mean, you know, something we, we sometimes finish missions

00:08:52.500 and be like, man, that was really ugly. I mean, we got the job done, but that, that was not pretty

00:08:56.180 at all. Right. That was, we were doing the best we could in the moment with what we had, but more

00:09:00.180 importantly, it also allows us to modulate our energy as we move through our experience, our day

00:09:06.420 or whatever it is. Right. Because I don't need to be peak when I'm driving to the grocery store.

00:09:10.180 You know, I can be, I can, I can kind of modulate my energy down and be almost in a recovery

00:09:14.820 mode if I want to. And so if we think about performance much more broadly in the optimal

00:09:19.460 sense, it allows us to understand how to effectively move throughout our day. And then it gives us the

00:09:25.500 opportunity to also kind of peak on demand, you know, cause I'm, I'm, I'm saving up my energy or I'm,

00:09:30.860 I'm charging my battery when I need to, so that when peak is required, I peak, you know? So there's

00:09:36.540 nothing wrong with peak performance. It's just, it's just a, it's just only one aspect of performance.

00:09:40.540 And so I think optimal performance speaks to the entire broad sense of performance overall.

00:09:45.800 All right. So let's dig into these attributes that allow us to perform optimally. In the book,

00:09:49.600 you highlight, it's 22 attributes and you organize them into groups. First group is grit attributes.

00:09:55.300 Then there's mental acuity attributes, drive attributes, leadership attributes, and team ability.

00:10:01.020 Let's start with grit. Yeah. How do you define grit broadly? And then what attributes make up grit?

00:10:06.160 And I mean, the other question is like, can you develop, I mean, so we talk about actually just being

00:10:10.100 innate, this would be a good chance to say, well, can we also develop these? So let's start there.

00:10:14.020 Like what's grit and what are the grit attributes? Yeah. Grit is, so people, a lot of, a lot of people

00:10:18.840 think of grit as its own attribute and it's really not, it's a combination of things. And so, so grit

00:10:23.180 speaks to our ability to push through and, and charge through acute challenges and obstacles, right?

00:10:30.680 And what it is, is a combination of things that allow us to do that, that are baked and catalyzed.

00:10:36.360 And so the grit attributes are four, four attributes. It's, it's courage, it's perseverance,

00:10:41.380 it's adaptability, and it's resilience. Those four things kind of blended and catalyzed

00:10:45.960 make up grit. They're the result of those things is, is in fact grit, your ability to kind of push

00:10:51.340 through. And so again, we don't have to have high levels of all of them, but all of them have to exist

00:10:56.180 if someone is going to consider themselves gritty per se. But again, grit really speaks to that,

00:11:03.660 that more acute challenge and stress. Whereas, you know, kind of moving, I'll, I'll skip one of the,

00:11:08.740 I'll skip over the mental acuity just for a second, but the drive attributes on the other hand,

00:11:12.760 speak to our ability to set and pursue and achieve these long-term type goals, right?

00:11:18.960 So drive speaks to more of the long-term type goal, whereas grit is more acute.

00:11:23.820 Well, let's dig deep into some of these grit attributes. Like take perseverance, for example,

00:11:28.120 like what does, what does that look like? And is it possible to develop that? And if so,

00:11:32.980 like, what can you do to develop it? Yeah. So let me answer that second part first,

00:11:37.180 because we can, we can develop any attribute that we want to. We just can't do it the same

00:11:40.920 way we can do a skill and a good way, a good kind of the back of the envelope test to determine

00:11:45.300 whether or not it's an attribute or a skill, because they get conflated all the time is to

00:11:49.120 ask yourself, can I teach it or can it be taught? If the answer is yes, it's probably a skill. If the

00:11:54.120 answer is no, it's probably an attribute, right? So, so like I gave the example, I could take you out to

00:11:58.760 the range. If you want to say, he said, Rich, I want to learn how to shoot a, shoot a pistol and hit a

00:12:02.540 bullseye, you know, every time. Well, I could take you out to the range and do that. I could teach you

00:12:06.680 how to do that within a couple hours. I mean, that's a skill. Or you could say, Hey, Rich, I want

00:12:10.440 to learn, I want to learn how to be more patient or be more adaptable. Well, I can't teach you that,

00:12:14.860 right? So, so to develop an attribute, take self motivation, it takes self direction, and it takes

00:12:20.480 a willingness for that individual to step into deliberately step into environments that test

00:12:25.340 and tease and develop that specific attribute, right? So, so if someone wants to develop their

00:12:29.860 adaptability, they must deliberately find environments where their adaptability is tested

00:12:35.280 so they can develop it. So that's, so that's one thing. Perseverance is a great one. And

00:12:39.440 perseverance is, is, was fun to write about because what I found is that it's a combination, in fact,

00:12:44.560 of what I call sub attributes. And now we get a little bit complicated, but it's a combination of

00:12:49.620 three things. It's a combination of persistence, tenacity, and, and fortitude. And the reason why I had

00:12:54.960 to combine those three and they're not separate is because persistence and tenacity are in fact,

00:12:58.860 two different things. Persistence is, is the ability to kind of charge forth on solving a

00:13:05.720 problem with a solution and just keep doing it, right? Keep at it over and over and over again

00:13:10.640 until it works, right? This is another way to describe this as the stonecutter approach, right?

00:13:14.720 The stonecutter taps that rock and, you know, after 99 taps, hasn't seen anything. And on that hundredth

00:13:21.940 tap, the rock breaks, right? That's, that's persistence. Tenacity is different. Tenacity is the ability

00:13:28.320 to kind of try something. And if it doesn't work, move on to something else and try something else.

00:13:33.060 So the car mechanic is tenacious, right? I'm going to try that. I'm going to, I'm going to check the

00:13:37.060 belts. If it's not that I'll check the spark plugs. If it's not that I'll check the carburetor.

00:13:41.320 So if a stonecutter, for example, were tenacious, that stone would never get carved, right? Or cut.

00:13:47.780 Whereas if the, if the mechanic were persistence, you'd probably run up your, you know, your, your bill would

00:13:53.160 probably run up and you'd never get the problem solved, right? So, so perseverance overall needs

00:13:57.500 to be kind of a combination or balance of the two. We have to kind of understand what we're trying to

00:14:01.660 do and understand what's going to work in that situation. And then fortitude really is the,

00:14:05.760 is kind of the mental toughness to be able to modulate between the two and push through. And so,

00:14:11.020 so it's a combination of all three. And if someone is, is looking to develop their perseverance,

00:14:16.080 the recommendation I would give them would be, okay, first understand where do you fall on the

00:14:22.020 scale of persistence and tenacity? You may be someone who's very persistent, but not enough

00:14:28.640 tenacity, right? Or vice versa. And then of course, where's your, where's your fortitude to kind of

00:14:33.360 balance that all out? Those who are very, very impatient tends to be a little bit higher on the

00:14:38.160 tenacity scale. Whereas those who are very, very patient tend to be higher on the persistence, but,

00:14:42.460 but we all know success requires a balance of the two because depending on what you're doing,

00:14:47.040 it might, it might, might modulate and shift. I mean, what would be an example of something

00:14:51.280 you could do to, you know, put yourself in so you could work on these attributes, you know,

00:14:55.800 this, this perseverance? Yeah. So that's, that's great, great question. And it's a tough one to

00:14:59.960 answer just because it's, it's highly subjective, right? Because the, because those, those challenges

00:15:05.280 that I consider challenges as Rich Devini are going to be different than the ones that you as Brett

00:15:11.740 consider challenges or some other person. So, so as, as someone who wants to practice

00:15:17.120 perseverance, the recommendation is find tough stuff to do. Now, tough is going to be subjective

00:15:22.660 to you. Like tough for me, tough stuff for me is going to look differently than tough stuff for

00:15:27.120 someone, you know, who has never even been in the military, for example. Right. But I think that's,

00:15:31.620 that's the key is you have to, especially when it comes to perseverance, you have to, you have to

00:15:35.500 find tough stuff that you, that requires you to persevere through. I mean, the good news slash bad

00:15:42.260 news is that life is going to throw those things at you, no matter what, I mean, whether or not you

00:15:45.560 go and look for them. So you can certainly look for tough stuff, but also don't discount the stuff

00:15:50.420 that just happens to us in life because life is rife with stuff that requires perseverance.

00:15:55.120 Well, let's talk about the mental acuity attributes. What are those? And then how do they work together?

00:15:59.220 Yeah. Mental acuity are the four attributes to describe how our brain understands and processes

00:16:05.160 the world. And, and out of all the attributes, those are probably the four that are the most

00:16:09.640 connected because you can't really, can't really just use one and not use the other because it's

00:16:15.080 really a sequence. And so it starts with situation awareness. And this is how our, how we absorb all of

00:16:21.340 the information that's coming into our systems. Right. And when we get about 11 million bits of

00:16:25.740 information per second through, through all of our five senses, our conscious mind, however,

00:16:30.640 frontal lobe can really only process about 2,500 bits per second. Right. So, so there's a massive

00:16:35.760 amount of deselection going on without us knowing. And I mean, something as simple as, you know,

00:16:39.920 no one who's listening to this is, is noticing the feeling on the bottom of their feet. Right.

00:16:45.680 Until I just said that. Right. So, so, you know, we're, we're deselecting a bunch of stuff,

00:16:50.520 but situation awareness is what we're noticing. And, and those with higher situation awareness,

00:16:54.880 you could call a little bit more vigilant. A vigilance is another way to describe this,

00:16:58.600 where you're just, you're, you're able to notice things that are in your environment that maybe

00:17:03.000 other people tend to kind of not notice. Right. I'm the guy who walks through the city streets in

00:17:08.720 New York. Right. And I noticed the dark alleys and I noticed the people, the people's faces and

00:17:13.260 their, and where their hands are. And I noticed the traffic, you know, coming from both directions.

00:17:17.520 And so, and I'm looking, I'm kind of, so I'm constantly vigilant in some cases, hypervigilant,

00:17:21.860 which is sometimes bad because it can, it can add a lot of stress to the system,

00:17:26.100 but that situation awareness. So how much, how we're taking information in,

00:17:29.120 then it comes compartmentalization. Once we have that information in our system, in our brains,

00:17:33.800 how are we then assessing it in terms of how it's relevant to our current goal, right? From that

00:17:40.340 assessment, how we're prioritizing that information. So what's that, what are those things that I need

00:17:44.320 to focus on first and then focus? What am I focusing on first? Right. So, so that compartmentalization is a,

00:17:49.580 is a three-step process that happens pretty darn quickly. All right. But it's still happening.

00:17:54.820 We're doing that assessment. Those who are really, really good at compartmentalizing can do that

00:17:59.500 pretty rapidly in dynamic environments and constantly maintain awareness of what they need

00:18:04.860 to switch to. So, so compartmentalization is, is obviously a very, very necessary skill for a Navy

00:18:10.100 SEAL. For example, you have to be able to block out what doesn't matter and only focus on what matters.

00:18:15.240 And this includes if the, if the environment there is, there are miserable things about the

00:18:19.240 environment that, that do not have anything to do with your current objective or goal. You're able

00:18:23.380 to block that out and move, move past it. Right. Then comes task switching, which is really ultimately

00:18:28.040 what people think of as multitasking, but multitasking, as we know, is really a myth. We can't

00:18:33.560 really focus consciously on one thing or two or, you know, two or more than one thing at a time.

00:18:39.040 A great example would be driving a car and listening to a podcast, right? Most people will say,

00:18:42.880 well, I can do that, but it doesn't count if you've relegated that, that activity,

00:18:47.080 whatever you're doing to your unconscious, right? We're able to drive a car and listen to a podcast

00:18:50.640 because we don't have to think about driving a car. However, if we were driving the car,

00:18:55.400 listening to a podcast and someone swerves in front of us and we have to swerve out of the way and do

00:18:59.640 some evasive maneuvers, it's guaranteed that you're going to have to rewind that last 15 seconds of the

00:19:03.560 podcast because your, your brain just switched. So, so that's task switching. And those people who are,

00:19:08.180 who are pretty good at or high on task switching can very effectively hop mentally between contexts

00:19:15.140 and categories. They can go from, you know, really quite simply, they can go from an email to a phone

00:19:19.400 call to a, to a text message to a conversation, right? And they can make those hops pretty efficiently

00:19:25.020 and it doesn't really screw them up. And then there are people who really can't, it's tough when they,

00:19:28.740 when they get, when they're in something and they get pulled away, it's tough for them to get back in.

00:19:33.060 So again, no judgment is really where you fall. And then learnability is your ability to kind of

00:19:37.300 absorb and process all that information and, and learn it and metabolize it in a way that you can

00:19:42.540 then affect it in your future behavior. Right? So, so those people who are high on learnability are

00:19:47.820 those folks who you, you tell something, you tell them something one time, or you show them something

00:19:52.400 one time and, and they got it right. It's like, man, they just have it and they don't have to repeat

00:19:56.620 it. Whereas I am actually in fact, a lower on learnability, which means I, I find myself making the

00:20:02.140 same mistakes one or two times before I actually learn. Right. So, so I've had to adjust my learning

00:20:07.280 process to, to account for that because I'm lower on learnability. So that's how those four break out

00:20:12.020 and they, and they definitely work together. Yeah. And I think the mental acuity attributes

00:20:15.860 really highlights the idea that this is not something you can teach. Like all that stuff,

00:20:19.040 I was thinking the only way you can learn that is just experiencing like highly fluid, complex,

00:20:24.380 uncertain environments. And that's, you're going to learn how to be mentally acute on the fly as you go

00:20:29.620 through that experience. That you're absolutely correct. And I, and I, and it's fun if you pick

00:20:33.720 those environments, again, it's subjective, but you know, driving in traffic is, is a, is an

00:20:38.400 environment where you're testing your mental attributes, right? I use the example in a book

00:20:43.180 of running through an airport, trying to find your, your gate, right? That's another way. I mean,

00:20:46.960 so, so these are, or I also use the subway. I love the New York city subways because it, it,

00:20:51.700 it exercises all of my mental acuity attributes when I'm on it and trying to find where I'm going and,

00:20:56.160 and the platforms and the stops and things like that. So, so yeah, we can, it's absolutely

00:21:01.240 something that someone has to do for themselves. Although we can also, you know, such as SEAL

00:21:06.880 training, choose professions or environments where the environment just hyper develops that stuff.

00:21:11.840 So we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:21:17.260 And now back to the show. Let's talk about the drive attributes. You've got self-efficacy,

00:21:22.180 discipline, then you've got open-mindedness, cunning, and then narcissism. We'll talk about,

00:21:28.460 that's interesting. So you don't think of that as a positive attribute, but I'd like to dig deep in

00:21:32.560 a discipline because I thought this was really interesting. You in the discipline section,

00:21:35.600 you make this distinction between discipline and self-discipline. What's the difference and why

00:21:40.680 is it important to make that distinction? Well, it, it, it, it is another fun thing about writing a

00:21:44.380 book. It, you know, it causes a lot of introspection, which it did for me. And I, I recognized that

00:21:50.420 when I was talking about discipline and beginning to write about it, I was talking about the ability

00:21:54.400 to kind of project and map out and then move towards and achieve long-term goals, right?

00:22:03.160 The discipline to be able to, to hit the wickets that are required to achieve a long-term goal of

00:22:08.740 which I have a lot of, I've been able to, you know, achieve a bunch of neat kind of audacious goals

00:22:14.720 in my life. Self-discipline though, I don't have a lot of, right? And I said, okay, why is that?

00:22:18.920 And what I recognize is that self-discipline, it, it speaks to those pursuits that we can engage in

00:22:25.560 on that the external world has no say in, right? And has no, has no bearing on, right? So, so an

00:22:33.180 example would be, I want to eat better and get in shape, work out, right? I can decide that anybody

00:22:38.620 can decide that. And the external world has no say as to whether or not you achieve that goal. It's all

00:22:42.740 on you, right? You can decide to eat better and then, and then go to, go to Vegas, go to a Vegas buffet.

00:22:48.120 The buffet is not going to throw bad food at you, right? It's all on you to do that. So, so that's,

00:22:52.580 and, and so that's self-discipline. And there are people who, people who have, who are very high on

00:22:56.660 self-discipline are able to affect those goals. And it's, it's something that they're, they're really

00:23:01.760 good at. Oftentimes it requires a routine, you know, that someone can kind of do. So you'll find the

00:23:07.080 highly self-disciplined people usually have like high, highly structured and routinized endeavors on a

00:23:15.040 daily basis, right? Whereas the lower self-disciplined people like myself, I'm, I'm much

00:23:20.240 more like, yeah, I'll just kind of figure it out as you go. You know, I don't, I don't have that,

00:23:23.780 right? So now discipline overall, it means, can I, can I achieve this goal, right? That the external

00:23:30.940 world does have a say in, right? I mean, that's writing a book that's becoming an ABC, that's

00:23:34.940 starting a podcast. I mean, the, the achievement of those goals, it's, you know, getting to a certain

00:23:38.740 position in your company or whatever, the achievement of that goal, the external world has

00:23:43.060 a say in. And so to have overall discipline is going to require flexibility and adaptability.

00:23:49.900 And some of those other attributes that, that allow you to kind of move and shake and not get

00:23:55.440 seduced by the highs and not get crushed by the lows. And so obviously the best combo is to, is to

00:24:00.780 have both, both self-discipline and discipline and be a little, you know, kind of in the, in the higher

00:24:05.260 end on both. But we've all seen people who are very, very highly self-disciplined, but they can't,

00:24:11.120 when it comes to their kind of their lives overall, they can't accomplish, you know, long-term goals

00:24:15.680 at all. Right. And then we've seen the opposite. We've seen people who are very, very good at

00:24:19.700 accomplishing long-term audacious goals, but in terms of their, their kind of personal lives,

00:24:24.760 they're not self-disciplined at all. So, so best to kind of look at it as a, as a combo and see where

00:24:30.600 you stand on either, and maybe work on either one or both.

00:24:33.480 This, this made me think of, uh, as I was reading your book, not too, like as I was reading this

00:24:38.020 book, I was also reading another book that you already for a podcast about Jake McNeese and the

00:24:41.520 filthy 13 from world war two. There's like, so yeah, there's a demolition squad for part of the

00:24:47.060 one-on-one and these guys had no self-discipline, like none. They didn't like to salute. They didn't

00:24:52.940 like to do formation. They were just dirty, filthy, gross, drunk all the time, getting in fights.

00:24:58.820 So they had no self-discipline, but they had a lot of discipline. Like they would give them a job

00:25:03.340 that seemed impossible. They would get it done some way or another.

00:25:07.060 Yeah. Yeah. I, it's a great example. And then, and again, the, um, I mean, you could say some

00:25:11.460 spec ops units and seals have been accused of that. In fact, almost exactly that is like, you know,

00:25:16.840 you know, kind of gritty, dirty, don't, you know, don't salute like kind of the lower grooming

00:25:21.660 standards, but, you know, but when the job comes down, they will get the job done, you know, and,

00:25:26.160 and they will be disciplined in their pursuit of getting that done and they will adapt.

00:25:30.000 And again, if you are someone who's highly self-disciplined, it probably means that you

00:25:34.360 really like routine and you really like structure. And if you find that you're someone like that and

00:25:39.700 you're suffering from lower discipline, right? It's probably because in, in the pursuit of any

00:25:46.580 long-term goal that the external world has a say in, you are going to be thrown off your routine.

00:25:51.860 You're going to be thrown off structure. You're going to have to just adapt. There are going to be

00:25:54.840 certain times where you can't get that workout in at the time that you want it to. You're not

00:25:59.860 going to be able to get that meal. You're not gonna be able to sleep when you need to sleep. And so,

00:26:03.360 so again, I think it's an understanding. I'm really interested in articulating this stuff so

00:26:06.620 people can start to understand and deconstruct their own performance and see where they fall

00:26:10.920 on this stuff. So they can say, Oh, actually it's not about working on this whole big thing.

00:26:15.440 I can actually just work on these two, one or two pieces and I'm going to be okay. But yeah,

00:26:19.720 it's a great example. Let's talk about narcissism a little bit. Sure. How is that a positive

00:26:23.620 attribute? Because typically we think of narcissism as negative. Yeah. It trends towards the negative,

00:26:29.220 especially when you start getting in the higher levels. But the reason why I kind of had to add

00:26:33.220 it into the kind of the drive category is because when we think about why we set audacious goals,

00:26:41.200 there's a, there's a little bit of a narcissistic tendency that comes into that. I mean, narcissism is

00:26:45.180 really basically the desire to be adored and feel special and stand out and be recognized. That's what it

00:26:51.420 is. Right. And every human being has a desire at some level to have that happen at least once or

00:26:58.160 twice. Right. And it's, and the, the interesting thing is it's not, it's not actually just philosophical.

00:27:02.460 It's neurological, right? We, when we're, when we're babies, when we're infants, so we're getting

00:27:06.260 paid attention to and adored by our parents or other adults, right? We're getting bursts of three

00:27:11.460 very powerful chemicals, dopamine, which is a powerful neurotransmitter, which means, you know,

00:27:15.600 keep doing this. This is good. We're getting serotonin, which is another powerful neurotransmitter that

00:27:20.400 kind of promotes this feeling of safety and, and bonding. And then oxytocin, which is a hormone

00:27:25.740 known as the love hormone, again, bonding chemical, you know, connecting human beings. We're getting

00:27:30.500 all three of those when we're getting paid attention to. And so, and, and that's as infants,

00:27:33.880 that doesn't change when we're adults, right? There's a reason why we want to feel special

00:27:37.880 once in a while. There's a reason why we want to feel recognized. And so, and so there's a little

00:27:41.700 bit of narcissism in that. And I kind of joke in my buddies and I joke about this. Why did we all become

00:27:45.980 Navy SEALs, you know, at 18 or 22 years old? Sure, we were all patriots. Sure, we love our country and

00:27:51.560 we wanted to, you know, serve our country, but it's also because we wanted to be badasses, right? We

00:27:55.820 wanted to see if we could do it. We could see if we could do something that very few people do.

00:27:59.720 That's a little bit of a hint of narcissism speaking. And so, and so the idea is, you know,

00:28:03.940 of course, too much narcissism is bad, right? And there's, and the, and the DSM-5, which is kind of

00:28:08.980 like the psychology Bible will outline, I think it's nine, nine criteria for narcissistic personality

00:28:15.380 disorder. And if you read those nine things, I think it's, if you have five or more, you have

00:28:20.640 the disorder, right? And so I was reading through these nine things and I, and of course I didn't

00:28:24.840 have five or more and I'm not even sure I had all of, all of each one, but there were certain things

00:28:30.840 I read. It's like, well, I'm sometimes like that. I sometimes feel that way. And so I had to really

00:28:34.960 kind of, again, introspect and be honest with myself about the fact that sometimes we set and

00:28:41.380 move towards audacious goals because of a little bit of narcissism in us. And so if you metabolize

00:28:46.920 it correctly, it can be an incredible driver. And that's why I wrote about it as an attribute.

00:28:51.460 Right. People always say like, you can't want to be president of the United States unless you're a

00:28:55.900 little bit of a narcissist. Totally. Totally. Right. So let's talk about leadership attributes.

00:29:00.700 That includes things like empathy, selflessness, authenticity, decisiveness, and accountability.

00:29:07.000 And the one that really spoke to me, I think it's interesting. I'm sure you get this all the time.

00:29:10.260 As people read your book, they're like, well, that one spoke to me more than the other ones.

00:29:14.080 Yeah. The decisiveness one spoke to me for some reason. In that section, you make the distinction

00:29:18.420 between being able to make a good decision and being decisive. What's that distinction?

00:29:23.640 Yeah. I mean, the distinction is speed and efficiency, right? Decisiveness is really an external

00:29:28.040 expression of our mental acuity attributes. And more specifically, I guess, compartmentalization.

00:29:34.680 It's our ability to kind of assess information, prioritize how that information kind of falls

00:29:39.900 into place, and then focus. Make a decision on something and focus. Decisiveness is the external

00:29:44.720 expression. It's now you're dealing with things that are coming at you and one's ability to say,

00:29:50.640 okay, out of what's going on and the information that I have, how can I make and begin to act on a

00:29:56.860 decision? And again, the decision-making process is something that all leaders need. But long,

00:30:02.780 protracted, lengthy decision-making processes often don't necessarily feel as leader-like as someone

00:30:11.160 who has the ability to say, okay, I have this information. It's enough that I feel like we're,

00:30:16.380 you know, we have what we need and I'm not reckless and I'm going to charge forth. And it's

00:30:20.800 kind of this 80-20 rule. I mean, we used to say some of these targets, you know, if we can get at

00:30:25.560 least a percentage of information on the target that gives us enough to say, okay, let's go check

00:30:31.480 it out. We're going to go. And we would never, ever get 100%, right? Ever. And 80% was actually

00:30:36.480 a good thing. You know, sometimes it'd be 50 or 60%. But what is that percentage of information that

00:30:40.880 allows you to feel comfortable enough to say, okay, that's all I need. I'm not being reckless.

00:30:44.820 I'm going to make a decision and I'm going to push forth. And again, it's, we have to remember

00:30:48.680 when it comes to decisiveness, a decision can be final, but not permanent, right? The decisive person

00:30:54.040 understands that when I make a decision, I'm going to act on it. It's a final decision, which means I'm

00:30:57.880 going to act on it and move congruently to what I just decided. However, if as I, as I implement that

00:31:04.540 decision, I start moving forward, I find that it was the wrong decision or there's a different, better

00:31:08.840 way. It's not permanent. I can change. I can make another decision, which takes a little bit of

00:31:12.920 accountability as well. I think, I think decisiveness and accountability actually work

00:31:16.780 in tandem when, when they're working properly.

00:31:19.460 So any examples from military history where you think indecisiveness cost a military unit?

00:31:26.740 Well, I mean, in the book, I talk about Stalin who, when the Nazis were invading, I mean,

00:31:31.520 Stalin had all the proper clues. In fact, he had, he had spies who told him exactly when the Nazis were

00:31:37.520 going to invade Russia. And he, he chose to ignore that. And when it in fact happened, he locked himself

00:31:44.320 away in his house for several days. And so the, the commanders on the, in the front lines were,

00:31:50.020 were just completely almost neutered in their ability to do anything about it. Because again,

00:31:55.220 in that environment, they were afraid to do something that perhaps would be looked unfavorably

00:32:01.300 at by Stalin himself. So they were kind of neutered in their ability to, to do anything. And that

00:32:06.340 indecisiveness caused the German army to make advances that were unheard of for that size of

00:32:14.840 a unit when the Russians were so overwhelmingly better prepared and bigger and more and better

00:32:20.700 equipped. Right. But the, but the Germans literally became within, you know, several hundred miles of,

00:32:26.360 of Moscow, right. Before the, before it was really the winter that stopped them. So, so that's a great

00:32:32.060 example in history of indecisiveness, almost costing a nation. So team ability attributes move on to

00:32:38.420 that. You include integrity, conscientiousness, humility, and humor. So let's talk about humility.

00:32:44.560 This is coming from a seal. And I think most people, when they think of seals, they think of

00:32:47.460 these sort of hard charging guys with swagger and beards, but you note that, you know, the best seals

00:32:52.700 are usually the most humble seals. So what does, what does like swaggering seal humility look like?

00:33:00.520 Yeah. It, it looks like something that, that almost is unnoticeable. I always say the most

00:33:05.820 dangerous seal you've ever met is the guy you've met and you never knew you met, right? Because

00:33:10.620 it's unassuming and it's not, and it's not really visible. I think, I think there's a lot of seal

00:33:15.600 stuff out there and seal mythology and even some seals out there who, who are very, at least in image

00:33:21.280 and, and kind of the way they portray themselves, they kind of speak to that kind of, oh yeah, that's what

00:33:26.580 a Navy seal looks like. But I, I'm, I'm telling you that most seals are, they look like regular

00:33:32.160 people, right? You know, and it's hard. They're not, they're not necessarily easy to pick out.

00:33:36.100 And I think that's where the, that's where the humility begins. But I think, you know, any seal,

00:33:40.200 regardless if you look like one or don't, every seal recognizes how humility is absolutely

00:33:45.700 necessary. And the reason why you recognize that and you, it's something you learn at Buzz from day one

00:33:50.700 is that, is that you as a seal place yourself environment and into environments that will

00:33:55.760 immediately humble you if you are not already humble, right? The ocean is a perfect example.

00:34:01.240 The ocean will kill you. It will kill. It doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are. It doesn't

00:34:05.840 matter, you know, what background, it will kill you if you turn it, if you turn your back on it,

00:34:09.860 right? It's that, it's that powerful. You don't screw around with the ocean. Same thing with mother

00:34:14.220 nature in any environment, but also in combat. I mean, listen, you know, in Africa, you know,

00:34:19.380 there are bad guys who give guns to nine-year-olds, right? And a nine-year-old firing a bullet,

00:34:25.840 right? That hits a Navy SEAL who might have, you know, 10 or 15 years experience, that bullet,

00:34:31.380 if placed properly, is going to kill that guy, right? And so, and so the environments that you're

00:34:35.980 in, in SEAL life, whether it be the ocean or the mountains or in combat where one bullet fired in the

00:34:44.020 right way by anybody can kill you is, is immediately humbling. And I think, so that, I think most

00:34:49.100 SEALs recognize that. And that's, you know, how it, how, how I found at least the guys I, I was

00:34:55.100 around for most of the time and most of my career conducted themselves. And as you said, in this

00:34:59.460 section, there's a sweet spot, like you don't want to be too humble because then you become sort of

00:35:03.420 like a doormat, but then you don't want to be like, again, because you need some of that narcissism,

00:35:07.360 right? To like, yeah, bravado, right? I mean, the problem with humility is it comes with a little

00:35:11.880 bit of a stigma and, and, you know, where it comes, you know, where that stigma comes from,

00:35:15.280 which people, people could debate, but, you know, you know, sometimes people think of humbleness

00:35:19.100 or humility as weakness, or, you know, I'm going to bow my head and, you know, give in or whatever.

00:35:24.400 And, and, you know, it's, it's not, I mean, I mean, the, the, the humility properly, well,

00:35:30.900 I guess you'd say, yeah, humble. I mean, any one of these attributes, Brett, taken to either extreme

00:35:35.320 is bad, right? So too much of anything is bad and too little of anything is bad. So, so on all of

00:35:40.080 these, you want to find a sweet spot. That's what, that's the optimal place. And it's no different

00:35:44.480 for humility, right? Too much humility to the point where like, oh no, you know, I'm bowing your head

00:35:49.360 and you're just, you know, almost a limp noodle is bad, right? There's a, there's a, there's a

00:35:53.960 humility that says, I think that, I think the healthy humility is, is, is the humility that says,

00:35:58.060 I am, I'm confident with, with my capability and my skill, but I always have something to learn.

00:36:03.600 There's people who can always teach me new things. So I always have my ears open and I'm not

00:36:07.700 arrogant about it, right? So it's kind of that proper humility is confidence versus arrogance,

00:36:12.920 right? That's what it is. Because again, confidence is, I know I can do this. And in

00:36:17.160 doing, in knowing that I also know I have a lot to learn, whereas arrogance is externally

00:36:20.480 focused. It's, I am better than you. And as soon as you start saying that you've, you've

00:36:24.740 closed your mind to additional learning and you have lost your humility.

00:36:29.800 Well, I know my, our podcast listeners get tired of me saying this because I usually bring

00:36:33.640 it up in every episode, but this sounds like Aristotle. This is the idea of the golden mean,

00:36:38.040 right. And finding the, the, the, the virtue is finding that, that middle spot between

00:36:42.640 two vices essentially.

00:36:44.820 Yeah. I've had several friends who've, who've read the book and I've talked to about the book

00:36:48.580 and, and they're like, Hey, this is, this goes all the way back to Aristotle. And they've

00:36:52.060 sent me a lot of Aristotle stuff. So I've started to dig through that, but you're absolutely right.

00:36:55.700 I mean, this is stuff that, yeah, it was cool writing about it because the stuff that we've

00:36:58.880 actually been talking about for, for, for, you know, thousands of years, right. These qualities.

00:37:04.000 And I think this is just a different way to look at them and explain them and articulate

00:37:07.380 them so that people can actually say, okay, this is how this makes sense for me.

00:37:12.440 So you have a few attributes at the end of the book that didn't really fit into any of

00:37:16.100 the, the four categories. And we've, you've mentioned some of them throughout our conversation.

00:37:20.480 One is patience and impatience. And then I think a competitiveness was another attribute.

00:37:26.200 Tell us how those, those attributes play in with the rest of these attributes.

00:37:29.860 Yeah. Well, the reason why I couldn't fit them into the categories is because they didn't,

00:37:35.140 they didn't match up in terms of what I just said in terms of if you're, if you're really low

00:37:39.820 or really high, it's kind of bad. You know, they, they, in other words, they didn't really have a

00:37:43.240 sweet spot because there are people who are very impatient and they're highly successful. There are

00:37:49.360 also people who are very patient and they're highly successful. And same thing with competitiveness

00:37:53.120 and non-competiveness, competitiveness. And the other one was fear of rejection versus, you know,

00:38:00.060 kind of insouciance to what people think. And so, and so the way this works is, you know, let's just

00:38:04.440 say competitiveness because it's, it's one that was interesting to kind of look at. It's assumed by

00:38:08.340 most people that competitiveness is a absolutely necessary attribute for success. Right. And I don't

00:38:15.160 disagree with that, but what I do disagree with is the implied corollary, which is that

00:38:19.420 non-competitiveness doesn't work. Right. Non-competitiveness can also be very, very

00:38:24.600 instrumental to high levels of success. And the reason why I know this is because I am not a

00:38:29.300 competitive person. Right. And I, and I never was, I used to play sports in high school and I was in

00:38:33.060 fact, the captain of my lacrosse team in high school. And, and I never really, it never really

00:38:37.720 bothered me or moved me either way. When we won or lost, I was, I loved the game and I love the sport and

00:38:42.060 I love the kind of the teamwork and I love the intricacies, but the winning or losing, I was like, okay,

00:38:45.840 I mean, I didn't really bother me. And I thought that'd be a hindrance when I went to seal training

00:38:50.560 because I was like, man, that this, this might be bad. But what I recognized when I got to seal

00:38:54.640 training is that, is that the Navy seals as, as does most, if not all high performing teams

00:39:00.620 recognize and honor both polarities because both polarities are necessary. The competitive mind

00:39:06.480 looks at a problem with situation and environment and immediately begins to place rules and conditions

00:39:13.820 around what they're seeing. And then asks the question, how can I win in this environment based

00:39:18.680 on these rules and conditions, right? That's very, very powerful. It's a very, very powerful thing

00:39:22.900 to be able to do, but the non-competitive mind looks, might look at the same situation and say, okay,

00:39:27.740 I don't care about the rules. You know, as far as I'm concerned, there are, there are no rules.

00:39:32.660 I don't really want to go down the line on this one. How do we work or how do we, how do we find a way

00:39:37.140 that's completely goes around it or does something different, right? That also can be a very powerful

00:39:42.520 successful success mechanism, right? And in the seal teams, especially when we're looking at

00:39:46.400 complex operations, you know, here's a mission. We have to accomplish this mission. It's, it's

00:39:51.360 really beneficial to have both polarities on a team because one will look at us, okay, how can,

00:39:56.360 what are the rules around here? How can, how can we win? What might be the best way? And the other

00:39:59.340 minds are saying, okay, what's a, what's a way we can think about this completely differently. And so

00:40:02.940 all teams will benefit from both polarities, which is why I put them in the chapter where I,

00:40:07.440 I talk about these others. So how do you figure out what your attributes are? So we've talked

00:40:11.480 about all of them. Is it just a matter of self-reflection or is it, do you need like a third

00:40:15.960 party to sort of triangulate? Cause I mean, you might think, well, I'm, I'm gritty. I've got grit,

00:40:21.400 but really you don't. So what does that look like figuring out what your attributes that you have?

00:40:25.960 Yeah, it can come in different forms, right? So there has to be some introspection, but it has to

00:40:30.000 be honest introspection. Like, and one of the ways we can do that is to look back at those times in

00:40:34.580 our lives where we were inside of challenge, uncertainty, and stress and how we, and kind of autopsy,

00:40:40.420 how we performed, right? You know, I, the, the environment was changing around me and it was

00:40:44.880 outside my control and I, it felt really hard and bad. Well, that might give a clue as to your

00:40:49.500 adaptability levels. Your adaptability might be a little bit lower, right? So, so that's one place

00:40:53.700 is to autopsy. You can, if people really, we can, our loved ones who know us very well,

00:40:57.780 or our teammates who we've been through shared challenge with can help us, can help us distinguish

00:41:02.800 those. And then, and then just throwing ourselves into new challenging environments. We can,

00:41:07.160 we can start to distinguish. The key is to know that, first of all, we all have all of the

00:41:12.680 attributes. Okay. The difference in all of, in all of us and each one of us is, is really the extent

00:41:16.920 to which we have each one, right? So I talk about adaptability as the example. If 10 is high and one

00:41:23.100 is low, I'm probably a level eight on adaptability, which means when the environment changes around me

00:41:27.200 outside of my control, I am pretty good. It's very easy for me to kind of go with the flow and flex,

00:41:32.060 right? Someone else might be a level three, which means the same thing happens to them.

00:41:35.060 And it's difficult for them to go with the flow and flex. They're still adaptable. It's just

00:41:38.780 difficult, right? So, so if we were to line all these attributes up on a wall, like dimmer switches,

00:41:43.320 all of our dimmer switches would be at different positions. And that, that, you know, if we connect

00:41:47.060 the dots, all of our lines would look differently. And so this is the first thing we have to recognize.

00:41:50.960 The second thing we have to recognize is that we don't have to have the perfect amount of all the

00:41:56.280 attributes. In fact, that's impossible. Okay. And there's no judgment to where, to where we fall on that

00:42:00.860 scale, right? But then the, this, the specific niches we're in require certain attributes and

00:42:06.740 others don't, right? The, the standup comic doesn't necessarily need to have a lot of the

00:42:12.860 leadership attributes, right? Cause it's a pretty self-directed profession. And I would say like,

00:42:16.500 take something as, you know, a specific one, like empathy. If the standup comic is a little bit lower

00:42:20.840 in empathy, that's probably a good thing because too much empathy is going to affect his routine. I mean,

00:42:24.360 how can you find the funny at a funeral if you're too empathetic, right? So, so the idea is to, to

00:42:29.740 start thinking about this in a way, like how do I show up, right? You know, in reading the book, you

00:42:34.640 get a sense of how, of, of kind of what these attributes mean. I know on the website, we've

00:42:39.980 developed an assessment tool that allows someone to go in and get a score as to where they fall on the

00:42:45.200 grid attributes, the mental acuity attributes and the drive attributes. So they can kind of see as

00:42:49.320 compared to a big data pool that we, you know, get, got information from where they fall, like

00:42:55.220 on adaptability or situation awareness, but then to take those scores and say, okay, how does that,

00:43:00.220 what does that mean? And how does that fit into my, my true experience? Does that make sense? Does

00:43:04.700 it not make sense? And do that diligence. And the idea, I guess, ultimately the way to think about

00:43:10.540 this is that we're all as human beings, we're all humans, right? But we're kind of like automobiles,

00:43:15.000 right? Some of us are Jeeps, some of us are Ferraris, and some of us are SUVs, right?

00:43:19.320 But there's no judgment there because the Jeep can do things the Ferrari can't do. And the Ferrari

00:43:22.740 can do things the Jeep can't do. And it behooves us to kind of lift our hood and figure out what our

00:43:28.400 engine looks like, because we may in fact be a Jeep that's trying to run on a Ferrari track,

00:43:32.460 or it might be a Ferrari that's trying to run on a Jeep track. And again, if that's our choice,

00:43:36.220 there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, we might say, you know what, I actually, I want to,

00:43:39.640 I want to take my Jeep and get to on a Jeep track. But even if you're a Jeep that wants to run on a

00:43:43.240 Ferrari track, what that allows you to do is say, okay, as a Jeep running on a Ferrari track,

00:43:47.000 what are those attributes that I need to now actively develop so I can be a better Jeep

00:43:52.980 running on this Ferrari track? And I think that's the real power of being able to start to understand

00:43:57.940 and deconstruct this for yourself. Yeah, it helps you figure out your fit. And I mean,

00:44:01.480 going back to that guy you were training at the very beginning of the, we were talking about the

00:44:04.660 very beginning of the podcast. Like at first, when he got rejected, he was really bombed. But later on,

00:44:09.760 he figured out, because, but then afterwards, you told him like, here's what you're lacking.

00:44:13.040 Right. But he also like, here's what you have, here are the attributes you do have,

00:44:17.440 find something within the organization that fits that. And he did that. And he had a really

00:44:22.240 flourishing, fulfilling career. That's right. Yeah. And that just that knowledge allows you to kind

00:44:27.400 of just, yeah, tweak yourself. Because again, even, even in the performance enhancement space,

00:44:32.840 there's so many different tweaks and techniques and gimmicks to, to enhance performance that are out

00:44:40.060 there. Right. And some of them are phenomenal. Some of them are probably not that good. But if

00:44:43.560 you pick the wrong thing, it's, you know, they don't all work for all people, right? If you try

00:44:48.560 to put a nitrous oxide booster on a Jeep engine, it's probably not going to go very well. Right. So,

00:44:52.860 so you have to, just by understanding your own system, you can in fact, also start to understand

00:44:58.260 what those, what's out there that can help you improve your system. And that's important too.

00:45:02.920 Well, Rich, it's been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your

00:45:06.480 work? Yeah. It's a, so the best place is the attributes.com, which is the website where you

00:45:11.640 can get the book. You can also take that free assessment tool. You can see where you stand on

00:45:15.260 that. And then we, I, we have some workbooks on there that people want to develop specific

00:45:18.760 attributes. They can grab a workbook and, and develop attributes. And then, yeah. And then there

00:45:22.560 you can find the Instagram handle that I have for the attributes for Rich Divini and LinkedIn and

00:45:27.920 Twitter and things like that. So that's probably the best kind of one-stop shop for all things

00:45:32.100 attributes, theattributes.com. Fantastic. Rich Divini, thanks for time. It's been a pleasure.

00:45:36.480 Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to be here. So I appreciate it.

00:45:40.280 My guest today was Rich Divini. He's the author of the book, The Attributes. It's available on

00:45:43.820 amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find out more information about the book at his website,

00:45:47.700 theattributes.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash attributes,

00:45:51.540 where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:46:01.280 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Check out our website at

00:46:04.680 artofmanly.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles

00:46:07.900 written over the years about pretty much anything you think of. And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free

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00:46:31.440 As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay. Remind you

00:46:34.760 to not only listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Character Traits That Drive Optimal Performance [REBROADCAST]

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