The Art of Manliness - The Click Effect： Inside the Science and Magic of Social Chemistry

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00:01:13.480 Brett McKay here,

00:01:14.260 and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast,

00:01:16.660 which since 2008 has featured conversations

00:01:18.780 with the world's best authors, thinkers, and leaders

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00:01:43.880 Now on to the show.

00:01:45.020 we've all had that feeling you meet someone new and the conversation just flows you're in sync

00:01:57.840 you click but what's really happening when that magic occurs my guest today is journalist Kate

00:02:02.620 Murphy author of why we click the emerging science of interpersonal synchrony and she says this

00:02:08.000 experience isn't just a vibe it's a miserable physiological phenomenon and the most consequential

00:02:13.040 social dynamic most people have never heard of. In our conversation, we dig into what happens when

00:02:17.840 people click, why syncing with others feels so good, and how it influences everything from

00:02:22.080 friendships to teamwork to romantic relationships. We also talk about why some people have a knack

00:02:26.600 for connection, how you can become more clickable, and why video calls are the worst. After the show's

00:02:32.080 over check out our show notes at awim.is slash click. All right, Kate Murphy, welcome to the

00:02:46.920 show. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. So you got a book out called Why We

00:02:51.200 Click. It's all about that feeling that we've all experienced where we're clicking with someone

00:02:56.560 socially. It could be the first time we meet them and we're just like, man, I'm on the same page

00:03:00.620 with this person. I'm vibing with them. And there's actually a name for this in the scientific

00:03:05.120 literature, interpersonal synchrony. And you call it in your book, the most important social dynamic.

00:03:11.520 So why is interpersonal synchrony so important? Well, it is the way we connect. Just like you

00:03:18.220 said, it is the physiological mechanism, the under the hood mechanism for connection and

00:03:25.760 interpersonal synchrony, the way I define it is, and I still think it's magical, that moment of

00:03:32.880 clicking, but it's the magical, but now scientifically documented tendency of human

00:03:38.920 beings to fall into rhythm with one another. And what I mean by that is when you gather

00:03:44.880 two or more people together in a room, instantaneously, usually in less than 30 seconds,

00:03:51.700 They will not only begin to match or mirror one another's gestures, facial expressions and postures, they will also start to sync up their heart rate, their respiration, their hormonal activity, their pupil dilation, all these physiological signals that we cannot detect, but we sync up to them nevertheless.

00:04:17.100 And why do we do this?

00:04:18.440 We do this because when we internalize and embody one another, we are able to get a read on one

00:04:26.520 another's thoughts and feelings. And so when you smile, when someone else smiles, you get a read

00:04:32.220 on their joy. When you flinch, like when you're watching a football game and you see a quarterback

00:04:37.460 gets sacked and you flinch, you are actually intuiting their pain. And also when you sync up

00:04:45.340 with somebody else's racing heart, you start to feel their anxiety. So it's really a evolutionary

00:04:53.000 advantage of human beings of being able to tell very quickly, instantaneously, friend or foe,

00:04:59.860 what are they thinking? What are they feeling? I think all of us have probably heard this idea

00:05:04.120 that we mirror each other. So if someone puts their hand on their chin, we have a tendency

00:05:08.240 to put our hand on our chin if we're syncing up with them. But yeah, you go into the fact that

00:05:12.520 there's a lot more going on with our physiology than just that. Besides mirroring gestures,

00:05:18.060 you mentioned your heart rate syncs up, your hormonal activity syncs up. And there's also

00:05:22.620 research that shows that when people are syncing socially, their brain activity, their brainwaves

00:05:27.440 sync up. Yeah, that's key. And that really shows that there's been this transfer, particularly

00:05:34.360 during meaningful conversations. It doesn't happen, interestingly, during vacuous conversations,

00:05:40.860 very superficial conversations, during meaningful conversations. And I learned this when I was

00:05:46.080 writing the listening book, and it really got me started on this next book about synchrony.

00:05:52.320 But when the listener and the speaker are really understanding one another, their neural patterns,

00:05:58.880 their brainwaves start to sync up. And that is a measurable way of seeing, okay, there's been a

00:06:05.320 transfer of thoughts, memories, and feelings. So that's really critically important. But also when

00:06:12.460 you are having these meaningful conversations, particularly when you're in the presence of

00:06:17.240 another person and eye contact, you know, we've always been told, look people in the eye. It's

00:06:22.680 really true because we start to mimic other people's pupil dilation. And there are all

00:06:27.720 these things happening like micro expressions on your face that you are mimicking totally

00:06:33.880 subconsciously, and that aren't really visible, but we're mimicking them just the same. And it

00:06:40.780 helps us, again, embody, internalize one another, and really feel and get in the rhythm, in the

00:06:49.260 groove. Vibe sounds very West Coast woo-woo, but to really get a read on the other person's vibe.

00:06:56.520 People have energy. They have negative and positive energy, and that's how we pick it up.

00:07:01.480 Yeah. And as you were talking about how we all have this desire to connect and click with people

00:07:07.140 and how we want to sync up and basically almost become the same person, it reminds me, there's

00:07:12.300 that myth from Plato talking about where men and women came from. And the myth was that there was

00:07:18.780 a time before in premortal time where there's these creatures that were kind of like a donut

00:07:25.020 shaped like a circle looking thing that had you know four arms and four legs and two heads and

00:07:32.140 they were together and kind of connected at the belly button they kind of wheeled around like

00:07:36.040 cartwheel to get around and then they separated i know exactly what you're talking about and then

00:07:40.220 they separated and that became men and women and then like we just had this desire like we want to

00:07:44.500 become that one person again yeah the idea plato had was that we're roaming the planet looking for

00:07:50.340 our missing other half that we've been separated from. But interpersonal synchrony tells us that

00:07:55.760 what we're really looking for is we are looking for the person with whom we effortlessly sync,

00:08:02.800 the person who harmonize with us, the people that we are on their wavelength. I love how all these

00:08:09.900 turns of phrase, things that we have said for time immemorial being in sync, in step, in tune,

00:08:16.560 on the same wavelength, and on the other side, discordant, that kind of thing, unharmonious,

00:08:22.620 that those are all actually true. These things that we were feeling, now we have the technology

00:08:28.280 to actually see that's actually what's happening. We're syncing up in this way. And that's what

00:08:34.400 feels so good. So syncing feels good in the moment. And then when you consistently have those

00:08:40.060 clicking moments with someone, that's what makes for fulfilling long-term relationship.

00:08:44.880 What contributes to our ability to sync with others?

00:08:48.080 Is there a genetic factor?

00:08:49.640 Does it have something to do with our early childhood development?

00:08:52.180 Is it a mixture of both?

00:08:53.580 Yeah, I think it's all of that.

00:08:54.880 And I love that you're bringing up the genetics because I really want to say on the outset

00:09:00.760 that this is an emerging science.

00:09:03.140 And we don't understand it exactly, why it happens, when it happens.

00:09:07.940 That's why it's still magical.

00:09:09.240 I mean, why did John Lennon and Paul McCartney click on so many different levels and were able to produce and have the impact that they did?

00:09:18.820 And the same thing with all of us.

00:09:20.520 When we click with somebody, it's still somewhat magical.

00:09:23.860 But, yes, I do think everything comes into play there.

00:09:28.660 It's genetics.

00:09:29.720 It's your history.

00:09:30.780 it's everything that has happened to you in life is embodied within you and every neural twitch

00:09:39.900 everything that you do is a product of all of those pieces all the way back to when you were

00:09:47.800 in utero so i like to use the analogy that we're all kind of like we're made up of trillions of

00:09:54.040 oscillating cells and what we're all kind of like are these massive symphony orchestras with all of

00:10:01.400 these different instruments playing at different frequencies and amplitudes and you meet another

00:10:07.320 person and they've got their whole orchestra from you know all these different pieces that came

00:10:12.340 together and it's just a matter of whether or not you two are able to harmonize that you are able to

00:10:20.560 It's not necessarily you're going to start playing their song and get on their tempo entirely, or they're going to do the same to yours.

00:10:27.680 What's really remarkable is how we both somewhat accommodate to one another and play this even more beautiful tune together.

00:10:37.020 And we also, the key point is we interpret it as pleasurable.

00:10:41.540 So it's not so much of putting each other in a exact common state of arousal.

00:10:48.660 It's more accommodating one another and playing this beautiful song together that we both are really in the groove, if that makes sense.

00:10:57.700 Yeah, it's a dance.

00:10:59.160 It is a dance.

00:11:00.060 It is a dance.

00:11:00.840 Well, what you talk about is stuff like genetics and upbringing influences someone's general ability to sync with people.

00:11:07.160 It's like their overall capacity to connect with people.

00:11:09.900 But those things, they also influence your personality, your disposition, which also influences whether we click with people.

00:11:18.220 Like there has to be some kind of alignment there.

00:11:20.640 Not that you have to be perfectly parallel in the same.

00:11:23.080 You can still sync if you compliment each other in some way, even if you're different.

00:11:26.500 Yeah, because that's what's sort of kind of cool about this is if there are so many people

00:11:32.080 that we can think of who are odd couples that come together and that we never would have

00:11:37.780 like, God, I never would put those two together, whether it's friends or a romantic couple.

00:11:41.660 So you can sync with people that you never thought you would sync with.

00:11:45.460 Something else you talk about is that there are certain people who are just especially good at syncing with other people.

00:11:51.020 There are people that have, and I talk about this in the book, we have something called effective presence.

00:11:58.260 And we're all familiar with personality, and that's sort of the general state of how we feel.

00:12:02.940 But effective presence is this consistent way that we make other people feel.

00:12:09.460 And there are some people that just, for lack of a better word, have a really good vibe.

00:12:13.540 that people just sink to very easily. And you can call it charisma. You can call it a vibe.

00:12:21.180 You can call it just somebody who's just really has a compelling personality. And it doesn't

00:12:27.460 mean they're always upbeat. It's not just that. It's just people are drawn to them. But we all

00:12:34.420 carry around an effective presence that is something that is, I think, useful to think

00:12:40.420 about is how do I leave people? Am I leaving people better or worse than I found them? Are

00:12:46.560 they more uptight? Are they happier after they're around me? And what does that mean? And what can

00:12:52.000 I do about it? I think that's worth remembering that we all have this personal atmosphere that

00:12:56.340 can influence how people feel. And that we should be mindful and thoughtful about how we want to

00:13:02.640 leave people feeling after we leave their presence. You know, as we're talking about this, people might

00:13:07.460 be thinking that these good sinkers, these people who can click easily with people, you know,

00:13:12.160 people probably think, well, they're probably all extroverts. They're bubbly, they're charismatic

00:13:15.740 in that sort of stereotypical way we think of charisma. But you highlight examples of individuals

00:13:20.800 who have that great effective presence and they're not super dynamic, but people are still drawn to

00:13:27.420 them. Yeah. And I think that's because they're able to put them in sort of a calming cadence,

00:13:33.180 for lack of a better word, they calm you down. They make you feel more secure. There are also

00:13:39.380 lots of people that can just make you feel more competent or just there's something about their

00:13:44.520 presence that you find pleasurable. Again, it's like tuning into them and you find it pleasant.

00:13:52.360 I also, I think it's worth noting that we're not going to sync with everybody. And as much as we

00:13:59.940 might like to or think we like to, we're really not meant to. And so part of maturity is realizing

00:14:08.000 that there will be people that you can really hum along with and you're really going to click

00:14:14.380 with them. And other people, you're just, no, that's not going to work. And you know it instantly

00:14:19.460 and there's no use really forcing the issue. And it's also, people usually have two reactions to

00:14:25.060 that failure to connect is to say, first of all, there's something wrong with that person,

00:14:31.400 you know, that, that, that I didn't connect with them. There's something wrong. There's something

00:14:34.320 wrong with that person, or there's something wrong with me that I wasn't compelling enough

00:14:38.500 or that's why we didn't connect. And sometimes, you know, no harm, no foul. You're just not a

00:14:44.040 good fit and that's okay. Yeah. You're not for everybody and everyone's not for you.

00:14:49.160 Exactly. Yeah. So there's some individuals who just, they've got some sort of knack for clicking

00:14:53.720 with a lot of people. They got that effective presence. What about individuals on the autism

00:14:59.120 spectrum? Because that's something that you hear about, like it's hard for them, people with autism

00:15:03.900 to socialize because maybe they don't pick up on cues as much. Are they still able to sync?

00:15:08.340 You know, that's an interesting question. I actually found it really fascinating because

00:15:12.200 there are two schools of thought about that. And one is that just having a really difficult

00:15:17.740 time noticing, thinking that they're so internally directed that they have a hard time

00:15:24.860 syncing with other people. There's another school of thought is that they are so overwhelmed

00:15:30.240 by all the signals they're receiving that they're flooded. And so they aren't able to sync.

00:15:36.220 There's also some absolutely fascinating literature that there, and this is the case for

00:15:42.720 also people who have some learning difficulties, also perhaps with ADD, but certainly autism,

00:15:48.200 is that there are deficits in their ability to keep time, keep a beat, essentially. They have

00:15:54.080 a really hard time keeping a beat to music and also apparently keeping a beat with other people

00:16:01.120 because we all have a rhythm. Neural patterns are rhythmic, inherently rhythmic. Everything in the

00:16:08.120 universe is pretty much because, you know, atoms in and of themselves, inherently rhythmic. And so

00:16:13.940 the inability to keep time is an indicator and is also how they're actually using that as a way

00:16:20.560 to diagnose people who do have some of these neurological difficulties to find out whether

00:16:27.000 or not that's sort of a marker. And also it's coming into play as a type of treatment to help

00:16:32.700 people with their music awareness, with rhythm, perhaps dance, to try and help with that timing

00:16:40.440 deficit that translates into our ability to sync up with other people. Isn't that fascinating?

00:16:46.340 It is. I thought that was really interesting that your ability to keep a beat with music

00:16:50.200 translates over to your ability to keep a beat socially. I thought that was really interesting.

00:16:55.680 But I mean, it makes sense because one of the things you see people do in groups sometimes,

00:16:59.620 you know an organization will have people participate in a drum circle yep and in beating

00:17:04.140 on the drums it gets people in sync because they're creating a rhythm together well i think

00:17:08.700 just in general that's the other side of this is that when we are syncing with other people

00:17:15.720 behaviorally meaning we're doing the same thing at the same time particularly to a beat to your

00:17:21.600 point it fosters feelings of rapport of trust people volunteer more information they're generally

00:17:29.220 kinder and more helpful. Even babies strapped into face forward carriers and bounced in time

00:17:35.560 to music are significantly more likely to favor an experimenter who is also bouncing in time to

00:17:42.100 music versus an experimenter who's bouncing out of sync or who is not bouncing at all.

00:17:48.080 So there's something about, I mean, I myself am in a line dancing class and a lot of those people

00:17:53.180 in this class, I mean, just really probably little else in common, but I mean, we are so

00:17:58.340 cohesive and there's such a sense of joy of doing the same thing at the same time. You lose this

00:18:05.080 sense of yourself. You become more of this larger organism moving together and it does stimulate

00:18:11.800 joy. And if you think just even back in history, synchronized behaviors, movements have been used

00:18:18.880 as a kind of social glue. Think of religion, people singing together, praying together,

00:18:24.580 kneeling together, standing at the same time together, and in the military, marching to a beat.

00:18:32.120 And also all soldiers are really pretty much on the exact same schedule, doing the same thing

00:18:37.260 at the same time. And it builds this incredible sense of cohesion. It brings this feeling of

00:18:43.340 emergence. So when soldiers see something happening to one of their own, it's like it's happening to

00:18:50.280 them. Yeah. I think we've all maybe experienced that. I know when I worked in a restaurant when

00:18:55.460 I was in high school or I worked at Jamba Juice making smoothies and you get really busy. And

00:19:01.920 whenever the crew, they were just synced up. Yeah. In the zone. In the zone. We didn't have

00:19:07.440 to talk to each other, but we could look at each other and knew what they were going to do and what

00:19:11.680 I needed to do. And it just felt awesome. Like, this is amazing. We're just cranking out smoothies

00:19:17.460 like nobody's business. Yeah, I love that. You know, and the same with like the greatest sports

00:19:22.320 teams, the ones where everybody's cohesive and really clicking, you can see that. And those are

00:19:27.800 the ones that succeed. Another factor that plays a role in our ability to sync socially is something

00:19:33.300 called interoception. What is that? And what role does it play in our ability to sync with others?

00:19:39.080 Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. It's really I, I found this, well, I found everything in the

00:19:44.360 book, really fascinating. But this was a revelation to me because we like to think of our feelings

00:19:50.600 come from, okay, something happened, we process what happened in our mind and that results in

00:19:55.680 our feelings. But the research is really coming to show that really feelings start in our body

00:20:02.660 and our brain interprets feelings from these experiences, these feelings in our body,

00:20:09.560 and then we translate that to emotions.

00:20:12.620 So interoception is the ability to read what's going on in your body.

00:20:18.000 It's essentially body awareness.

00:20:19.960 It's the flip side of perception.

00:20:21.800 Perception is what you're perceiving outside of your body,

00:20:26.180 whereas interoception is being really in tune with what's going on within your body.

00:20:30.700 And that's super important because if you don't understand the sensations

00:20:36.040 and what they mean in your body, you really can't sync up to another person or embody another person

00:20:42.840 and take on their feelings and be really in tune with them. So for example, we all experience,

00:20:50.120 if you think about what does fear feel like for you? Do you feel it in your stomach? Do you feel

00:20:55.520 it in your chest? Do you feel it in your head? Do you feel it in your feet? Some people feel it in

00:20:59.660 their genitals. I mean, all of us have a different physical signature for fear. And if you're not in

00:21:06.360 tune of, okay, what does that mean? What am I feeling right now? Is that anger? And where we

00:21:11.900 get into trouble as human beings is when we start to misconstrue or get detached from those inner

00:21:17.700 feelings within us and what they mean. Like a lot of people have a different sense of what hunger

00:21:23.980 means. I mean, what the feeling is, is it gnawing in your chest or do you get kind of irritable?

00:21:29.020 People have different ways of perceiving hunger.

00:21:32.020 But where we really get messed up is where we misconstrue things like you can feel like

00:21:37.220 a little bit irritable or lethargic and think that's hunger when it's really boredom.

00:21:43.660 And people get mixed up with that, and particularly in our culture where we're so busy.

00:21:48.100 And it's almost a badge of pride to say you didn't sleep when you were tired.

00:21:53.420 You didn't eat when you were hungry.

00:21:54.800 You pushed yourself through when you were in a lot of pain exercising.

00:21:58.400 So that detachment from your body, and you can see how this would be a problem, is if you are trying to internalize, embody someone else's feelings, and again, this is all subconscious, but if you're not in tune with your own body, how can you be in tune with someone else's body?

00:22:19.380 Yeah.

00:22:20.020 So, I mean, I think that's interesting.

00:22:21.300 One of the first things you can do to help develop your own ability to click more with

00:22:24.620 people is just get more in tune or more aware of your own emotions and what they feel like

00:22:29.840 in your body.

00:22:30.760 Yeah.

00:22:31.080 Just do an internal review.

00:22:33.420 Because if we're internalizing other people's heart rate, their respiration, all of these

00:22:39.400 things, and we're not even aware of our own heart rate, you're not going to pick up someone

00:22:45.200 else's anxiety if you're not even aware of your own heart rate.

00:22:48.760 they've done a lot of research with particularly heart rate, but there are lots of other things

00:22:52.920 where people work on their interoception going through different parts of their body. And what

00:22:57.160 are you feeling? And there was one study I thought was just fascinating where it had high frequency

00:23:03.320 traders at a hedge fund. And the ones that had better interoception were better traders.

00:23:09.860 They made more money and they stayed in the job longer because they had more of that sense of,

00:23:15.000 okay, this is danger or what these other people are doing. I'm getting sucked into something that

00:23:19.720 maybe I shouldn't, where they really had a sense of their own self. And, and again, this is all

00:23:25.600 subconscious, but the fact that they had better awareness, higher awareness of their heart rate

00:23:30.640 and whether it was up or down versus another person made them a better trader. We're going

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00:27:07.180 slash disclosures for details one thing i've learned over the years that if you want to be

00:27:11.060 more proactive about your health you sometimes have to look beyond the standard annual physical

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00:28:08.780 that's superpower.com slash AOM. Again, that's superpower.com. Use code AOM for $20 off your

00:28:15.420 $199 Superpower membership. And now back to the show. Okay, so personality can influence whether

00:28:22.700 we click with someone, but there can be situations where the fit has potential, but you're not

00:28:27.960 syncing because you're just not generally good at syncing with people. And we've talked about

00:28:32.940 that some people are just better able to click with people and more people than others. I mean,

00:28:37.660 some of that is genetic and upbringing, but there's also things we can all do to improve

00:28:42.220 our clickability. And we've talked about some of those things already. I mean, like beware of your

00:28:46.240 own emotions, do things in a group, like some kind of physical activity together where you're all in

00:28:50.660 sync. But what else can we do to make ourselves more clickable? And you actually have a chapter

00:28:54.960 on what the world of speed dating can teach us about this. So what can speed dating teach us

00:29:01.120 about being open to interpersonal synchrony? Well, your listeners should know there's a vast

00:29:06.560 scientific literature on speed dating which was news to me and not only speed dating but speed

00:29:12.660 networking and they've done a lot of studies to find out what that's how they really figured out

00:29:18.320 what is happening when people are clicking and the people that reported a sense of attraction

00:29:25.180 and they wanted to see this person again whether it was in a professional or personal context

00:29:29.820 romantic context, it was that they were sinking on all these different levels. And the thing that

00:29:36.640 I think people can do that we discount, and of course, that's what my first book was about,

00:29:41.360 is to, you really want to be present, of course, and really, if you can be in person, in person,

00:29:48.800 you're going to pick up all these different signals that you don't pick up online,

00:29:53.300 or in a two-dimensional, or even three-dimensional, if it's virtual reality,

00:29:57.460 you're not going to pick up it's a multi-sensory syncing is a multi-sensory dynamic and so you're

00:30:04.900 losing a lot of information that helps you sync up with somebody if you're not in person so there's

00:30:10.320 that piece of it but also learn to be a really good listener when you are really trying to

00:30:17.860 inhabit somebody else's narrative and really trying to understand them and listening isn't

00:30:23.920 just being quiet. I mean, it is really trying to almost be with someone in the sense that

00:30:29.740 like you're watching a movie where you'd get totally lost in the other person and to almost

00:30:35.100 let yourself go in what the other person has to say, get rid of your own personal agendas and

00:30:41.140 really be a good listener. That is something that helps with that neural syncing we were talking

00:30:45.920 about with brain waves. So that's a piece of it too. But I just think in general, what's so

00:30:52.620 powerful about this knowledge is to be aware that this is even something that happens. I mean,

00:30:59.660 I don't know if you knew this before, but I certainly didn't know that on all these different

00:31:03.340 levels, we're syncing up with other people. And to try and be sensitive to that. And you kind of

00:31:08.660 let yourself go with it if it's something that's working for you. But if you get that feeling,

00:31:14.020 that discordant feeling, or sort of like that needle across vinyl, you know, when you meet

00:31:19.700 someone to also pay attention to that too, because you have intuited, you have felt something that's

00:31:26.300 pretty important to pay attention to. Can you hack social secreting? Because I mean,

00:31:31.140 some bit of advice you always see in magazines or blog posts is if you're on a date or maybe even

00:31:36.820 you're on a, you're networking or a job interview. Well, if you really want to sync up with someone,

00:31:40.820 you should just do whatever they do. So if your date crosses their legs, you cross your legs

00:31:46.680 and be intentional about that. Does that actually work?

00:31:49.760 No. Short answer, because we are really fine-tuned to authenticity, human beings are.

00:31:59.100 You talk about a superpower, we're really, and even subconsciously, anything that's a little

00:32:02.960 bit off or that we don't perceive as being authentic, we pick up on that. And then also,

00:32:09.140 when there's a big disconnect between, that's another thing about thinking, is to actually be

00:32:15.440 authentic because if there's a disconnect between what you're feeling and what you're doing or

00:32:20.160 saying, people pick up on that. That's sort of like crossed wires. And so people are, they pick

00:32:26.180 up on that, whether they are aware of it or not, they're aware of the end feeling, which is

00:32:32.240 discomfort. Yeah. Another bit of advice I've seen people use to try to sync up is, but if you don't

00:32:38.200 do it right, it's a total turnoff. It's using people's name. Oh yeah. Dale Carnegie famously

00:32:43.840 said something like the sweetest sound a person can hear is their own name. And I think a lot

00:32:49.520 of people hear this advice and they feel like, okay, I got to drop someone's name as much as

00:32:53.420 possible in this conversation. It's so aggravating. Yeah. I mean, I've had salespeople do this to me

00:32:58.220 and I'm just like, okay, I know what you're doing and it's just really annoying. So you can just

00:33:02.000 stop it. It's please stop. But I've also had podcast guests who say my name throughout the

00:33:07.260 conversation and it sounds natural. And I'm like, oh wow, that does feel really good. Even when I

00:33:11.900 think someone is doing it intentionally to be charming, it still feels good if it's natural.

00:33:16.580 But when it's really forced, it's irritating. It's a complete turnoff.

00:33:19.940 No, absolutely. Because there is a natural way to do it. I have a friend who's an airplane mechanic

00:33:24.800 and he's absolutely delightful. And he does that. He uses people's names, partially it's to help

00:33:30.360 him to remember, but it's so natural. And I mean, Dale Carnegie's right. It is like music to your

00:33:36.440 ears when it's, he's authentic. He wants to know me. He wants to be friends with me. And you feel

00:33:44.220 that. And when someone just drops it every once in a while, Brett, you know, I mean, let me tell

00:33:49.520 you, Brett, Brett, you know, it just, it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't have the same feeling. It's

00:33:54.540 discordant. Yeah. Okay. So you can't do the whole mirror somebody to sync up with them. That's just

00:34:00.640 going to happen naturally if you're syncing up with them. What about looking people in the eye?

00:34:05.200 You mentioned that eye contact is important.

00:34:07.600 Yeah, that's huge.

00:34:08.820 Look people in the eye.

00:34:10.000 But how much is too much?

00:34:11.660 Well, you know, there's creepy staring people in the eye.

00:34:15.300 But I think when that happens, there isn't a synchrony going on.

00:34:19.360 The person is just in their mind thinking, I'm going to stare at this person.

00:34:23.200 Do you know what I mean?

00:34:24.180 There's a difference between really looking with a sense of interest and a sense of exploration

00:34:30.420 and really wanting to sync with somebody.

00:34:34.380 And then there's this, okay, I'm just going to look at you because that's what I'm supposed to do.

00:34:38.620 And also, I think there are people who, you know, everybody's not as good at this.

00:34:43.380 People have different tuners.

00:34:45.900 And so some people really can try and look at somebody and it's almost like a blank stare.

00:34:52.640 And that's where it's creepy because you don't, on a certain level, you know that your pupil dilation is not syncing up.

00:34:59.240 They're not syncing up with your heart rate.

00:35:00.960 You feel that disconnect.

00:35:02.800 So I would say when you're looking at someone, if you're really looking at someone with interest and curiosity, then that's going to come across.

00:35:12.020 But certainly, I think people have different tolerances for intimacy.

00:35:16.960 And sometimes all the signals that you're getting from someone can be a little too much, and they need to look away every once in a while, and that's okay, too.

00:35:26.520 Yeah, that's fine.

00:35:27.120 And so, I mean, it sounds like if you want to be more clickable with people, it's not so much about tactics or techniques.

00:35:33.180 It's more about an attitude or a stance you take to whatever social interaction you're in.

00:35:39.840 And that attitude is just one of presence and curiosity and wanting to know about this person.

00:35:45.700 And if you have that attitude, the clicking is going to happen naturally.

00:35:50.060 Yes.

00:35:51.040 If you're compatible with the person.

00:35:53.140 That's important.

00:35:53.760 And that's what's so hard being a nonfiction writer, which, you know, I'm mainly a journalist and I've now written my second book after my first, I said, I'd never do this again. But if you look at the landscape of nonfiction books, I think you're probably more familiar with this than most people, that it is all about this hack. If you just do this and then this will happen.

00:36:15.300 And interpersonal synchrony and the things that I write about, it isn't something where

00:36:20.480 if you do X, then Y will happen.

00:36:22.700 And actually, nothing about life is like that.

00:36:25.960 And it's, as you said, and I think it's really apt, it's a dance.

00:36:30.720 And so if you go in wanting to dance and you go in with that curiosity and that openness

00:36:36.680 and just generosity of spirit, you will find people who are on your wavelength, who will

00:36:43.380 want to join in with your music, who you will play a beautiful song together or dance well

00:36:50.080 together. And then there will always be people who will just sort of be on their own tempo and

00:36:55.860 they're maybe distracted. They may be not even notice you or you're just not compatible. But

00:37:02.020 again, that's okay. We're not meant, we don't have the cognitive or emotional resources to

00:37:08.180 sync with everyone? And also, what would make it special when you do? So you mentioned one of the

00:37:14.320 important things for interpersonal synchrony is you have to be with the person in person.

00:37:21.680 Yes. And you have this whole section about the research on our ability to socially click with

00:37:27.360 people via digital mediums. What does that research say? Well, as I touched on earlier,

00:37:33.460 synchrony is a multi-sensory experience and in fact interpersonal synchrony suggests that we

00:37:40.700 have more senses than the five we take for granted like how do you sense someone's heart rate

00:37:46.600 their respiration their hormonal level even like these subconscious smells i mean we we have all 0.99

00:37:53.400 these pheromones that we're throwing out that they think is responsible for why women sync up their 0.95

00:37:58.720 menstrual cycle. So there are all these things and you're not going to get that online. You're not

00:38:04.060 going to get this full panoply of signals that someone is throwing out that you could potentially

00:38:09.920 sync up to. And that doesn't mean you can't sync, you know, on certain levels. I mean, we certainly

00:38:14.820 see things go on viral online or people's outrage gets stirred up online. So it's not like you can't

00:38:21.500 have synchrony or feel like you have synchrony with people online. But oftentimes, and people

00:38:27.880 who have done online dating know this better than most is you might think you have a connection

00:38:33.800 with someone online and then you meet them in person and you think, oh my God, no. I mean,

00:38:40.740 you just, all you can think about is how long do I have to sit here before I can break this

00:38:45.000 off without seeming rude? It's just, you know, you, you really do not get the full sense of

00:38:50.860 another person online. Yeah. That's an interesting point about online dating because it also could

00:38:56.240 happen, there might be people in your in-person social circle, maybe at work or church where your

00:39:02.760 filters on the dating apps wouldn't have brought you to that person. Absolutely. Because the

00:39:07.980 filters on dating apps are very superficial, like how tall you are, money, income. But there might

00:39:13.680 be people in your interpersonal social circle that you never would have thought you would have,

00:39:18.280 like, I want to date this person. But then you get to be around them and interact with them.

00:39:21.540 And you're like, oh, wow, I kind of like this person. Yeah. You would have totally swiped left

00:39:25.620 if you had read their profile, but then you see them in person and you totally click.

00:39:29.740 Yeah. So yeah, that in-person thing is important. Let's talk about this. We're on the podcast. I

00:39:34.720 don't do video podcasts and a lot of podcasts are going the video route. I'm talking to you.

00:39:41.280 I cannot see you. You cannot see me. I do all my interviews remote without video. I don't like

00:39:48.500 video. I do video calls every now and then. I don't like it. What is it? Help me justify myself

00:39:55.480 here? Like, why do I have this aversion to video calls? And why do I prefer voice only calls?

00:40:01.920 Well, the science backs you up on that. I mean, I'm not just trying to make you feel better. I

00:40:05.540 mean, the science totally backs you up on that. And I salute you for resisting it, because that

00:40:09.620 is the way of the world right now where everybody's moving to video. But the problem is that because

00:40:16.020 we have this instinct to sync, looking at video is very disruptive and makes us feel

00:40:24.420 ill. I mean, Zoom fatigue is a real malady. And that is because the way the technology is at this

00:40:33.540 point, the way that video images are encoded and decoded and buffered and all these things that

00:40:41.300 are manipulated about the image and you know not to mention pixelation it distorts all these tiny

00:40:48.080 little cues these facial expressions and then back to eye contact you are making eye contact with

00:40:55.360 your or maybe you aren't with your camera so nobody's actually looking at you and so you

00:41:02.400 in your brain again this is subconscious you're just rapidly spinning your wheels trying to do

00:41:08.720 this adaptive evolutionarily entrained thing with another person to sync up with them you're looking

00:41:17.680 for all those micro micro expressions you're looking for that eye contact and you're just

00:41:22.340 spinning your wheels trying to do that and it ends up making people feel uncomfortable vaguely

00:41:28.500 disturbed a little bit off and i have never met a single person who says oh goody a zoom meeting

00:41:35.060 And I don't know why it's become something where everybody thinks is to rigor because I, I mean, I've had people that I've talked to who that I've worked with who say, Oh God, I, you know, I loved reading that in your book and I, I hate zoom calls and yet they'll schedule a zoom call with me.

00:41:51.620 And I'd be like, why is this?

00:41:54.820 But I totally agree with you that we are able to connect and sync on a much more authentic,

00:42:01.160 real level just by hearing each other than getting all that faulty information that we

00:42:08.400 get from the video that throws us off.

00:42:12.280 And at some part of our brain is really struggling and it makes it really hard to connect in

00:42:18.620 any way, shape or form.

00:42:20.020 Yeah, I love I love talking to people on the phone. I've been doing that a lot more lately. I've got a friend who's moved and

00:42:27.520 Every like once a month i'll take a walk for an hour and we just talk to each other on the phone

00:42:32.760 And it's like we're together even though we don't see each other

00:42:35.780 Yes, yeah, no, I agree. And there's also there's don't you think there's kind of an intimacy having someone right in your ear

00:42:43.240 Yeah, like that there's that piece of it, too

00:42:46.560 No, I agree.

00:42:47.620 Whenever someone does a Zoom call, I always feel kind of like a heel because I'll do the Zoom call, but I'll keep my video camera off.

00:42:54.780 And then the other person's like, is your video camera not working?

00:42:57.880 And I say, no, it's fine.

00:42:59.180 I'm just going to do audio only.

00:43:00.660 It's a phone call.

00:43:01.840 Well, but let's be honest, Brett.

00:43:03.120 People are mostly looking at themselves on these calls.

00:43:06.880 Yeah, you're checking yourself out.

00:43:07.900 They're looking at the little image of themselves.

00:43:09.220 They're really not looking at you or they're getting distracted by looking at like, you know, what's that art in the background?

00:43:14.720 Is that a cat crossing in the back? And then when people blur all around them and they look so

00:43:20.200 peculiar with that blur stuff around them, I mean, you do kind of feel like a jerk because I have 0.96

00:43:26.140 nothing to hide. It's not that. It's just I really want to pay attention to what you're saying. I 0.96

00:43:31.920 really want to connect with you in some way. And I want us to be productive and sink in a way that

00:43:37.540 we can solve problems or get to an agreement. And the video just subverts that. All right. So let's

00:43:44.040 use this as a clarion call to end Zoom video calls. Boy, you know, if that came out of my book,

00:43:50.640 I would feel like I had just accomplished something great in the world. Yeah. You have

00:43:54.800 a chapter about the importance of interpersonal synchrony in romantic relationships. What happens

00:44:01.540 whenever a romantic relationship is not synced up? Well, it's not good. I mean, when we are not

00:44:08.060 in sync with another person, we experience it as discomfort, romantic or otherwise. And I think

00:44:14.300 it's particularly painful when you have been in sync, and then you move out of sync. And actually,

00:44:20.300 that's not a bad thing. Because you do want to have periods of asynchrony in any relationship,

00:44:26.880 it's natural and healthy, because that's how you get back in touch with yourself,

00:44:31.720 and recalibrate and makes you better able to, when you do sync back up with the other person,

00:44:38.600 that you each can bring something to the dance. I like your analogy. So that's okay. But I think

00:44:47.140 a lot of times, particularly people who have anxious attachment styles, they get very upset

00:44:53.100 when there is a sense of asynchrony. And so they really spin their wheels trying to like,

00:45:00.460 what's wrong? Which only drives people apart. And they often will do things that provoke the

00:45:08.380 person. Like if they're really agitated, they will provoke the other person. So they're agitated too,

00:45:14.740 just so they'll be in sync on that level, which is not good for a relationship. But if you really

00:45:21.520 find that you're really on different wavelengths and really feel like a real distance is coming

00:45:26.040 between the two of you, you know, go back to those things of make sure, are you spending enough time

00:45:30.700 together? Are you with each other enough to establish those physiological synchronies and

00:45:36.620 also activities, those joint activities we talked about? Go for a walk together. I mean, make time

00:45:42.180 so you're doing things, having these shared experiences and these joint activities that

00:45:47.740 help you sync up more readily. Okay. That's great advice. So make sure you're syncing up regularly.

00:45:53.560 People are busy, you know, as a couple, you can just sync up in the morning when you're

00:45:57.460 having a cup of coffee together, talk about what's going on with your day.

00:46:01.200 And then maybe at the end of the day, have another chat where you just hang out, talk

00:46:05.420 about how the day went.

00:46:06.700 Well, I mean, that's one of the greatest things about being in romantic relationships is,

00:46:10.540 you know, they used to call it like pillow talk, but just, you know, when you're laying

00:46:13.460 in bed at night and just talking and that quiet, and you know, again, you're not necessarily

00:46:19.080 looking at each other, but you're so synced up physically by proximity and just talking about

00:46:25.000 your day and sharing things that that really promotes that synchrony and that sense of

00:46:31.520 intimacy. So we've been talking about the benefits of interpersonal synchrony. It allows you to feel

00:46:37.600 connected to people, close. It feels good. It allows you to get stuff done efficiently and

00:46:42.100 effectively. But are there downsides to being too in sync with somebody?

00:46:48.940 Oh, yes. Because we have this instinct to sync, it makes us vulnerable to getting sucked into

00:46:54.480 other people's emotional vortex. I mean, I think we've all had the sense that when we are with

00:47:00.580 somebody who's just high drama, incredibly manic, that it's exhausting. I don't think everybody has

00:47:07.700 a great emotional vocabulary, but we all can recognize someone who's hard to be around versus

00:47:13.260 easy to be around. And the people that are hard to be around are the ones that sort of sweep us up

00:47:18.880 into this emotional cadence resonance that we're not comfortable with. And it is difficult. And

00:47:27.840 it's also difficult because when we embody and we internalize other people, it feels like it's

00:47:33.540 coming from ourselves. So I think we've all had the experience of like, why did I do that?

00:47:37.700 why did I say that? Or there was sort of a blow up and you're like, how did that happen?

00:47:41.140 And that's because you climb the ladder of emotion, arousal, agitation with another person

00:47:49.240 because of this instinct to sink. And you lost sight of yourself. You lost sight of where that

00:47:57.020 person begins and you end. And so that's why things like interoception are really important.

00:48:03.440 And also just, you know, by reading this book, you just to have an awareness that this is

00:48:08.180 what's happening.

00:48:09.300 And when you start getting those feelings, you can kind of think within yourself, okay,

00:48:13.240 what am I doing with this?

00:48:14.800 I'll give you a really good example.

00:48:16.040 When I was first working on this book, or I had really gathered most of the data, I

00:48:20.560 hadn't really finished writing the book.

00:48:22.800 I was invited to speak about my last book at a major university.

00:48:26.760 And I won't say which one, which will become clear in a minute.

00:48:29.360 and I was invited to lunch with one of the deans and we were at lunch and he was let's just say he

00:48:37.700 was socially very anxious and he was just he was spinning and he was having a hard time looking me

00:48:45.820 in the eye he was just kind of agitated and as a result I was pretty miserable I was really

00:48:51.920 uncomfortable and I was feeling really anxious and I was feeling very socially awkward and I

00:48:56.880 realized, which is, you know, not me. I, you know, I love meeting two people. And I realized, oh my

00:49:02.040 God, this is what's happening. I've totally internalized this guy. And once I was aware of

00:49:07.540 that, I was able to pull back and do things like think about, okay, where am I putting, you know,

00:49:12.800 I realized, okay, my shoulders are hunched. Let me bring them down. Let me take some deep breaths.

00:49:17.520 I even slowed the cadence of my speech, crossed my legs the other way. And I totally changed the

00:49:24.240 rhythm of the encounter. And not only did I feel better and bring myself back to myself,

00:49:31.520 but he started to relax. He started to sink to me. So there's a real power in catching yourself.

00:49:40.540 And it's hard. It seems like an easy thing to do, but it's really hard because it's so instinctual

00:49:45.940 and you become so wrapped up in the moment that you don't realize it's happening as it's happening.

00:49:51.580 and you do the debrief kind of afterwards,

00:49:54.160 you realize, oh, that would happen.

00:49:55.420 But if you get good at reading yourself

00:49:57.540 and reading other people

00:49:59.160 and the degree to which you are matching,

00:50:01.840 mirroring that other person,

00:50:03.140 it really can make a total difference

00:50:06.200 in your social life.

00:50:07.960 So the Osmonds famously saying,

00:50:11.240 one bad apple, don't spoil the whole bunch, girl.

00:50:15.740 But you say the Osmonds were wrong.

00:50:18.960 One bad apple does spoil the whole bunch.

00:50:20.940 Yes. And I think the best example of this was an incredibly interesting study that was done in the early 2000s by Will Phelps, who's now in Australia. He's at University of South Wales in Australia, but at the time he was at University of Washington.

00:50:38.480 And what he did is he created all of these work groups out of University of Washington business students, and he created all these work groups, but he introduced a Confederate or an accomplice who was to go in and either act like a jerk, a slacker, or a depressing downer, and see what happened, what the effect was on group functioning.

00:51:01.100 And he actually, he didn't know, Will Phelps did not know about interpersonal synchrony

00:51:05.780 at the time.

00:51:06.360 He was just looking for the effects, but he said now, knowing what he knows now, he would

00:51:10.760 have done the study totally differently.

00:51:12.460 Because if you look at the video, it's striking that like during the slacker condition, he's

00:51:19.940 like leaning back in his chair, he's eating, he's acting like he couldn't be bothered with

00:51:24.260 the task at hand and sure as shooting, everybody else starts leaning back.

00:51:29.260 they're starting to say things like, you know, let's get this over with. And they performed

00:51:32.620 really badly. And the really heartbreaking one was the depressive downer one. And the guy comes

00:51:39.380 in, he's acting real depressed and really lethargic. And it's really sad. You start seeing

00:51:44.460 everyone else slow down, putting their heads down on the table and you get this sense. And

00:51:50.360 they actually verbalize it. It's not only the task at hand was meaningless, but life in general

00:51:55.600 seem meaningless. And so you can see how this contagion happens in situations. And I think

00:52:02.700 we've all experienced where somebody new comes into a group and it just totally upsets the dynamic

00:52:08.660 and pulls people in one direction or another. And it can be, you know, there can be good apples too.

00:52:13.680 It can be positive or negative, but it's true that one bad apple, the greatest predictor of

00:52:20.520 the success of a team or organization is not how stellar the best person is, or even the average

00:52:26.540 abilities of the rest of the people, but how awful the worst person is. That predicts the success or

00:52:34.320 failure of a group. So if you're a leader of a group, what do you do when you're dealing with

00:52:38.320 a bad apple? Do you just have to get that person out of there? Or do you try to rehabilitate them?

00:52:42.460 Like, what's the strategy? Well, you know, most CEOs that I've interviewed are just like, yeah,

00:52:46.160 you got to get rid of it. It's going to ruin everything. But I think what they try to do more

00:52:50.800 on the front end is hire very carefully. And again, you know, don't interview by Zoom. Don't

00:52:58.780 rely on, you know, an algorithm that's going to pick the right resume. Because as you rightly said,

00:53:03.440 you know, sometimes with like dating apps, the people that you swipe left on are the people that

00:53:07.440 are the right person. So there's that. And there's also I when I interviewed Danny Meyer, he allowed

00:53:14.620 me to go. And I watched, I mean, you talk about synchrony in his Michelin starred restaurants,

00:53:20.340 the synchrony between the kitchen and the front of the house. And there's just a tempo. It's a

00:53:25.460 ballet in there. And I was talking to one of the managers and he said with hiring, they typically

00:53:32.260 bring in somebody and have a trial run, which I think is probably a really good idea with a lot

00:53:39.300 of organizations to the degree that you're able, because it's to the benefit of the potential

00:53:43.560 hiree, as well as the employer, because they all get a sense of, you know, am I clicking here?

00:53:51.040 Is this somewhere where I can flourish? Is this someone who's going to fit in with the vibe,

00:53:57.100 the rhythm of the team? So I think more to really try and head it off from the beginning.

00:54:04.060 So you got this one chapter, I want to end on this. I thought this was really interesting.

00:54:07.060 you explore our sometimes uncanny ability to sync with people from afar. So for example,

00:54:14.600 I'm sure some people have experienced this where they get a feeling that someone they know who

00:54:20.420 lives far away is having a hard time or maybe something bad happened to them. And they think,

00:54:25.140 I better check on them and come to find out something bad did happen to that person.

00:54:29.220 What's going on there? Well, I'm not sure, but I do talk about this in the book. And again,

00:54:35.900 And this is, you know, very, it's, people don't agree.

00:54:40.220 This is, you know, highly speculative, but in the physics world, they are coming to think

00:54:46.880 that our brains operate much like a quantum computer.

00:54:51.340 And again, I really want to preface this, that there is a lot of disagreement among

00:54:55.980 physicists, but there is a camp that believes our brains work like a quantum computer.

00:55:01.660 and quantum is subatomic particles and their behavior is very unique and one of the things

00:55:09.360 that is a factor of quantum mechanics is something called quantum entanglement and that is where

00:55:17.060 these subatomic particles they can become synced but then when they are separated by time and space

00:55:24.180 they maintain that synchrony and since they think that our brains are operating like quantum

00:55:30.760 computers and obey the laws of quantum mechanics, including quantum synchrony, you can see this

00:55:36.980 really trippy notion that if the quantum particles within your brain are synced up and can become

00:55:45.240 entangled, you can imagine how the quantum particles in another person's brain that would

00:55:52.140 sync up to your brain would be operating in that same synchronized way. And that might, and I

00:55:59.180 emphasize might, might explain why we are able to intuit, feel, predict telepathic types of things.

00:56:08.860 And we've all had them happen and thought, whoa, I mean, how did that happen? And you can see how

00:56:16.020 that might be an explanation of why that would happen. That's interesting. Yeah. Cause I know

00:56:21.720 people like that. My wife is able to do this. She'll have those moments where she'll be lying 1.00

00:56:25.560 in bed and she's like, I got a friend who's having a hard time. I need to call them. And

00:56:28.800 then sure enough, she calls and like, they're having a hard time. I'm like, what's going on

00:56:31.700 there? So yeah, it could be quantum entanglement, or it could just be, you know, the romantic,

00:56:36.320 we're just so combined that we just are on the same wavelength, no matter where we are. So who

00:56:42.520 knows what's going on there. But I do like that there's still some magic to this, that we don't

00:56:47.220 quite understand it all. For me, there's something intellectually, as well as kind of spiritually

00:56:53.100 satisfying about the fact that synchrony binds us not only to one another, but also to the universe

00:57:00.960 as a whole. Because synchrony has been observed throughout the natural and life sciences.

00:57:06.520 Everything from the tiniest quantum particle to supermassive quasars exhibit synchronistic

00:57:13.820 properties. And so it really shouldn't be a surprise that human beings do it too.

00:57:18.860 Well, you have a section on this. I mean, we can get a little more. Let's go more woo woo. I like this. About sinking with nature. I've had that experience where I've been out backpacking in the Rocky Mountains and I'm just staring at a mountain by this lake and I feel like the mountain is talking to me.

00:57:38.140 Right.

00:57:38.660 And I know it's not talking to me, but it feels like it.

00:57:42.400 But on some level, it is.

00:57:44.360 I mean, the science is pretty clear on this because, I mean, think about it.

00:57:47.860 We are ruled by nature, the sun coming up, the sun coming down.

00:57:51.600 We have all these internal clocks that are based on the rhythms of nature.

00:57:56.380 And the research is very clear that people feel better out in nature.

00:58:02.000 And they think that is because we sync up with the regular rhythmic patterns of not

00:58:08.860 only what you hear in nature, but also what you see in nature.

00:58:12.400 which is not what happens in urban environments.

00:58:17.000 So we probably need to have another conversation

00:58:19.760 if you're actually seeing lips moving on the mountain

00:58:22.040 and talking to you.

00:58:24.140 But the sense of communion and feeling in sync

00:58:28.080 while you're out in nature and with the mountain,

00:58:30.880 I think that's perfectly valid and accurate.

00:58:33.720 Yeah, humans are designed to click.

00:58:35.540 We love to click.

00:58:36.780 Well, Kate, this has been a great conversation.

00:58:38.580 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:58:41.300 Well, I think the best way is just to go to my website.

00:58:44.160 It's www.journalistkatemurphy.com.

00:58:47.380 And you can read about the book and any journalism that I've done.

00:58:50.760 And that's probably the best place to go.

00:58:52.920 Fantastic.

00:58:53.360 Well, Kate Murphy, thanks for your time.

00:58:54.320 It's been a pleasure.

00:58:55.240 Thank you, Brett.

00:58:57.340 My guest here is Kate Murphy.

00:58:58.560 She's the author of the book, Click.

00:58:59.860 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:59:02.080 You can find more information about her work at our website, journalistkatemurphy.com.

00:59:05.620 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash click, where you find links to resources

00:59:09.040 and we delve deeper into this topic.

00:59:10.540 well that wraps up another edition of the a1 podcast if you haven't done so already i'd

00:59:22.080 appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on a podcast or spotify it helps out a lot

00:59:26.340 if you've done that already thank you please consider sharing the show with a friend or

00:59:30.080 family member you think we get something out of it as always thank you for the continued support

00:59:34.240 until next time it's brett mckay reminding you to listen to the podcast but put what you've heard

00:59:38.500 into action.

The Art of Manliness - January 27, 2026

The Click Effect： Inside the Science and Magic of Social Chemistry

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