The Art of Manliness - The Complex Coolness of Steve McQueen

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast performances by

00:00:12.040 the actor steve mcqueen in classic films like the great escape and bullet earned him the nickname

00:00:16.440 the king of cool but behind the scenes mcqueen's character is complex in nature he could be both

00:00:21.680 difficult and demanding and kind and generous someone who could act aloof but care about things

00:00:26.360 deeply my guest has traced both sides of the coin of mcqueen's coolness for decades his name is

00:00:30.960 marshall terrell and he's the author of multiple biographies on mcqueen including his latest steve

00:00:35.340 mcqueen in his own words today on the show marshall i discuss mcqueen's enduring influence on popular

00:00:40.080 culture in terms of everything from style to motorcycles the code mcqueen lived both on and

00:00:45.040 off screen and whether after years of studying mcqueen's life marshall has figured out what made

00:00:49.460 him so cool we then talk about mcqueen's deprived childhood which left him ever craving affirmation

00:00:54.380 and his youthful stints in a reform school in the marines we get into how he found his way into

00:00:58.100 acting into superstardom despite the fact that he could be very difficult to work with marshall

00:01:02.540 explains mcqueen's relationships with women and the role race car driving played in his life we

00:01:06.720 also discuss why mcqueen had a hermit phase and how in a lesser known aspect of his life he had a

00:01:11.520 literal come to jesus moment in which became a born-again christian and we end our conversation

00:01:15.800 with mcqueen's untimely tabloid exploited death at age 50 after the show's over check out our show notes

00:01:21.220 at aom.is mcqueen all right marshall terrell welcome to the show hey thank you for having me

00:01:40.280 so you are a journalist and a biographer and you've written several biographies of different celebrities

00:01:45.600 and famous men cultural icons you've done one on elvis presley pete maravich you've done some things

00:01:51.360 on johnny cash but one subject you've written extensively about is actor steve mcqueen the king

00:01:57.940 of cool when did you start writing about steve mcqueen and what initially drew you to him as a subject

00:02:03.560 i first started writing about him in the late 80s now my first book was published

00:02:08.360 in 1993 but you know my research started in the late 80s he didn't become a cultural icon at that

00:02:15.720 time but by the time my book got published in 93 he did so it was great timing for me what drew me

00:02:23.080 to him as a subject was because there was a connection to him as a kid my dad was the real

00:02:29.860 steve mcqueen fan my dad just passed away in july and he was 83 years old and like every time there

00:02:37.080 was a steve mcqueen movie on television or if there was a movie out in the theater we'd go

00:02:42.080 and that was kind of our thing and and mcqueen was his guy and so that was the connection so we're

00:02:50.020 going to get into steve mcqueen's career here in our interview but you know big idea i mean i think

00:02:54.500 i'm 38 i've seen steve mcqueen movies my my parents they grew up watching steve mcqueen movie

00:03:00.520 watched the great escape towering inferno but for some people like he died before

00:03:06.340 they were born who are listening to this podcast so can you give us an idea how big of a star

00:03:11.020 he was at his peak like i mean how famous was he and like what sort of influence did he have on

00:03:15.260 popular culture during the peak of his career in terms of how big of a star he was you have to

00:03:21.760 understand back then there wasn't the concentration level of of media and movies and streaming and dvd

00:03:31.260 and television there was there was a line of demarcation between television star and movie

00:03:37.380 star and he was a movie star and there were only about i want to say five to seven movie stars at

00:03:44.340 that time who could open a film and steve mcqueen was one of them the other was paul newman john wayne

00:03:49.940 clint eastwood stars of those caliber got all of them now today are icons so that's how big he was

00:03:58.620 in in terms of again going back to popular culture you know in the great escape he wore this ripped

00:04:04.920 t-shirt you know like they didn't have a collar or sleeves and you know you could count on guys like

00:04:10.620 that wearing shirts like that in terms of motorcycles i mean what he did for the motorcycle

00:04:16.260 industry cannot be underestimated i mean he he uh he popularized it because before that you know you

00:04:23.780 had marlon brando in the wild one where there were outlaws and mcqueen kind of even though he was a

00:04:29.380 rebel he's he sort of sanitized motorcycle riding because uh with the documentary on any sunday

00:04:34.620 and then in thomas crown you know with the suits he he popularized uh the the british cut of men's

00:04:41.340 suits so he he cut this wide swath of of popular culture in terms of fashion machinery coolness i

00:04:51.180 mean just he was he was uh there's no one today that you can really compare him to there are elements

00:04:58.660 of brad pitt there are elements of george clooney and i i would i say even denzel washington in terms

00:05:05.420 of acting like if you if you see the equalizer today you can see and so so his his his influence

00:05:12.040 really was was on acting so the influence that he has today is just is tremendous i mean perhaps even

00:05:17.980 bigger than in his lifetime yeah i mean still today guys are still trying to dress like steve mcqueen

00:05:23.180 they'll do the turtleneck like in bullet with the suit you know the the jacket over it the peril

00:05:27.560 sunglasses they're still doing that you know 40 years after he died that's true that's true yes that's

00:05:35.140 that's the fashion side but there's still the machinery side i mean there's you know the bull

00:05:39.740 mustang still comes out with a car every five years and that's that's strictly because of the mcqueen

00:05:44.340 legacy you know mcqueen was into antique uh airplane flying and antique motorcycle collecting and

00:05:50.340 an antique car collecting and you know i mean look at how big those industries are i mean that's huge

00:05:55.760 and mcqueen was really kind of the first celebrity to do that and how do you think he changed or

00:06:02.440 influenced you know our ideas of american masculinity that we still see today

00:06:06.640 i would say the the influence is more in the 60s than it is today because the the the what i what i

00:06:14.900 see today in terms of masculinity cannot be compared to the to a man of the 60s and and that's not to

00:06:20.520 put it down it's just to say it's changed so much i'd say his his influence really is is more on

00:06:26.440 is on fashion in terms of masculinity i mean yeah it's up there on the screen and guys definitely

00:06:33.000 want to be like him but in today's society i don't know if you can get away with that sort of behavior

00:06:37.920 i'm not sure well we'll talk about some of his behavior because he had he was infamous for his

00:06:42.740 behavior but before we do like what do you think as i was reading your biography the thing that stuck

00:06:48.100 out to me is that mcqueen when he we'd go into these auditions or he just and meet somebody and

00:06:55.000 people be like that that guy's got something that guy is cool like there's something about that guy

00:07:01.340 i don't know what it is but we got to hire him and make him a part of this make him the star of the

00:07:05.160 movie like in your years of researching mcqueen and writing about him were you ever able to figure

00:07:11.080 out like what that thing was like what made him so cool and people wanted to work with him even though

00:07:16.600 he was difficult to work with men wanted to be like him and women wanted to be with him like what

00:07:21.700 what was that thing well it's what they call the x factor and and you can't really describe it the

00:07:27.200 only thing i can come close to is there was this animal magnetism that came out in him i mean he had

00:07:33.200 it in real life but he really honed it to a fine point for his movie characters so he was he was what

00:07:41.560 you saw on the screen but there was also this insecure side but in terms of what he wanted in himself

00:07:48.900 as a movie star you know though he you know he he popularized those and he he kind of i would say he

00:07:55.220 created the the movie archetype of today's modern action hero so those were the the things that that

00:08:01.320 people obviously wanted to emulate but in terms of talking about the archetype i mean we're talking

00:08:05.480 about things like you know he was he was the unreluctant guy that got trapped into a situation has to get

00:08:11.980 himself out i don't i don't think you saw that with with movie heroes of of yesteryear like john

00:08:18.060 wayne or gary cooper queen was a different type of movie action hero and it was more believable and

00:08:25.660 you know just the things that he did were unbelievably cool when he got himself out of it so it's really

00:08:31.280 hard to to put a finger on you know what made him cool or intriguing other than just you know he had

00:08:37.020 that x factor yeah he was an anti-hero that was one of his the character he played throughout of

00:08:42.060 all his music like the anti-hero he wasn't he's kind of in it for himself like he was just there

00:08:45.940 to survive for himself and get his but along the way like he had a code that he would you know he

00:08:51.340 would follow and wouldn't cross there's boundaries he wouldn't cross even though he's looking out for

00:08:55.800 number one that's correct and you see that really he pulls that off quite well in the great escape

00:09:00.860 he's in it for himself but at the end of it you know that he's going to end up doing the right thing

00:09:06.040 and he ends up making the sacrifice you know for the for the whole uh squadron that that was that

00:09:11.920 was imprisoned and so that that was true he had his own code a lot of his own codes in his personal

00:09:18.060 life ended up on the movie screen you know for example in one a dead or alive the the writer had

00:09:24.100 written had written written it where mcqueen beats up three guys and mcqueen's like no no no that's

00:09:29.040 that doesn't happen here's what you do you back down and then you find each one of them individually 0.88

00:09:34.240 and then you kick their butt and that's what he did in the marines you know he uh he found guys 1.00

00:09:39.560 taking a leak in the latrine and then you know he blasted the door open and then kicked their ass 1.00

00:09:44.600 and they did it and he found these guys one by one but when they you know when they treaded on him 0.96

00:09:49.500 three on one then he backed down so those were the types of codes that you saw in his films and

00:09:55.140 the other code is you know always live up to your word never double cross anybody and do your end

00:10:00.500 in that you see that in the getaway you know there was there would have been a chance where he could

00:10:04.440 have double crossed the actor al letary and he said nope you know gotta you know we we live up to our

00:10:10.340 word and then that way you know nobody's chasing us well they ended up trying to double cross him

00:10:14.620 anyway but those were the kinds of things that mcqueen had in his films that resonated you know with

00:10:20.180 audiences so a big theme in your your book your 2010 biography is that to understand mcqueen

00:10:26.700 and i'd say even like his coolness like what made him cool like that x factor you have to understand

00:10:31.160 his childhood because that influenced like his entire life what was his childhood like and how

00:10:36.680 did it affect his personal life in his career well the british i'll always like to compare his life to

00:10:42.720 to a charles dickens novel and that's not too far from the truth he had both of his parents were

00:10:49.800 alcoholics and his father took a walk when he was six months old and his mother was not really very

00:10:57.160 loving towards him and so and she was a young lady i think she was 19 when she had him and so she was a

00:11:03.100 party girl and so once she did give birth to him you know they went to live with his grandparents and

00:11:08.000 then sometimes she would go off on her own and then live somewhere away and then marry somebody and

00:11:14.040 then bring steve into this hostile situation and then he gets sent back to the farm in slater missouri

00:11:19.620 uh with his uh with his uncle claude and so it affected him the rest of his life because he just

00:11:25.100 couldn't shake it and so you saw a lot of that on film and how it shaped his compulsion to be famous

00:11:31.620 was because you know it was miserable he wanted he wasn't unlike a lot of other movie stars at that

00:11:38.860 time for example i did a book with an actor named ed cookie burns who did 77 sunset strip and it seemed

00:11:46.860 like everybody who was trying to run away or wanted to to better their lives they would just

00:11:52.500 run to hollywood you know you know with mcqueen it was pretty much the same yeah he wanted to be loved

00:11:57.480 because he didn't get that love as a kid basically absolutely and um and the the the ironic thing is

00:12:02.680 is that once he did get love then he questioned it so yeah but that that was an interesting part of

00:12:07.660 his personality right that affected his relationships a lot when you talk about his relationships with his

00:12:12.720 wives that he had and other women as well here in a bit but besides living with his uncle which he had

00:12:18.140 that guy had a profound impact on him taught the importance of hard work and brought a lot of

00:12:22.440 discipline and stability that he didn't have he also did a stint at a like a boy's town in california

00:12:28.140 that also had a big influence on the rest of his life tell us about that well yes it was called boys

00:12:32.720 republic and he was 14 what had happened was is that he was getting into a lot of fights with his

00:12:36.960 stepfather and it was an untenable situation and so his mother basically put him there and then boys

00:12:43.080 republic is in chino california and so it's a a reform school but without walls without fences

00:12:49.020 and they and it's kind of discipline based and they get up in the morning they milk cows at 4 a.m

00:12:56.180 and then they do studies all day then they milk cows again and basically what it was was a it was a

00:13:02.760 little town and they had things like city councils and they learned about society which was really

00:13:09.080 cool i mean and so mcqueen had to learn to what he said is i had to learn to exist within it otherwise

00:13:15.740 you know i would have been a hood so it really saved his life in a lot of ways so it taught him

00:13:21.040 discipline it taught him how society worked it gave him an education even though he left by ninth grade

00:13:27.340 i've seen a lot of his letters and and you know fairly sharp guy for for a ninth grade education

00:13:33.400 his letters were very very very precise to the point and you know have a lot of clarity so i was

00:13:39.300 always surprised that well you know when you look at somebody with a ninth grade education you think oh

00:13:43.300 well that steve mcqueen was very very not only very sharp in terms of of like letter writing but he

00:13:50.580 was sharp in terms of street smarts and reading people that's where his real intelligence came in

00:13:56.040 yeah they even showed signs of that of being able to read people and i wouldn't say manipulate but

00:14:01.500 like influence them uh even as a kid at this boy's republic right and some of that too came from him

00:14:09.000 being on the street i remember his one of his best friends pat johnson said as a street kid you have to

00:14:14.740 learn to act you have to learn how to react to people and you know here was this line that he

00:14:18.800 delivered to me that i'll never forget he goes steve mcqueen was an actor way before he went to

00:14:22.700 hollywood right well so yeah so he leaves the boys he runs away and then he kind of becomes an

00:14:27.680 urchin basically during high school goes to new york city goes to different places does odd jobs

00:14:34.120 then he did a stint in the marines uh what was his military career like was it longer distinguished

00:14:39.920 you know the funny thing is is that he signed for a three-year stint and he was 17 years old and he had

00:14:45.360 to get permission from his mother and the interesting thing is he sent about half of his paycheck home to

00:14:49.660 his mother and you know people always talked about how he hated his mother but there are signs there

00:14:54.360 too where he you know supported her and loved her but the the three-year stint you know i i brought

00:15:00.920 the i've got his military file and i brought it to a friend of mine who was a drill sergeant in the

00:15:06.520 marines and lifelong marine guy and looked at it and he said you know for for a peacetime soldier he did

00:15:13.120 very well but you know mcqueen always liked to embellish his image as a pure rebel all the time

00:15:19.540 and so i think one of the quotes he gave was you know the only way i'd become a lieutenant is if all

00:15:24.860 the other ones dropped dead and they promoted me but that wasn't the case this sergeant that uh i had

00:15:30.460 looked at his file say that you know he was you know he he moved up fairly quickly in the ranks and

00:15:35.160 tested quite well so um it wasn't but then then there were cases where he lied about what happened

00:15:41.500 in the marines for example he he gave a interview with a movie magazine and of course the the writer

00:15:48.220 got a little carried away but you know he talked about how he saved these people during these exercises

00:15:54.100 in in labrador and mcqueen saved five people well that was never in his military file and he always

00:16:00.200 talked about guarding harry truman's yacht and then i i asked a fellow soldier who served with him about

00:16:07.080 that and he said you know what harry truman's yacht was on a sandbar and he goes and a tree was growing

00:16:13.360 through it but you know if you if you had guard duty for it then you know it sounds pretty good on

00:16:17.800 your resume but so those are the types of things that i would find but the other thing interesting

00:16:22.580 thing i found in his uh military file was that he did do uh 41 days in the brig for going a wall

00:16:29.340 and wasn't so much for going a wall but when he got caught he got caught by a police officer and they

00:16:34.340 got into a fight and that's why he got thrown in the brig for as long as he did and the sad part is

00:16:39.380 part of his punishment was cleaning out the hull of a ship in the washington dc uh naval yards

00:16:46.700 and in those pipes where it was loaded with asbestos and that was in december of 1949 and the form of

00:16:56.140 cancer they had was called mesothelioma and it takes 20 to 30 years to develop and in december

00:17:03.000 of 1979 that's when he went to cedar sinai to check out what was wrong with him so it took

00:17:09.200 almost exactly 30 years to develop and we'll talk about his death that was like the saddest part in

00:17:14.600 the book really tragic his death so he did the military got out and started kind of rambling around

00:17:21.220 again how did he stumble in i mean the way you describe it it seemed he kind of stumbled into

00:17:26.200 acting it wasn't like something he had ambitions to do he kind of fell into it and was like this is

00:17:30.920 great i don't have to like work all that hard and i get to hang out with chicks and uh do some work

00:17:37.280 and that's it so how did that happen well you know he was dating a lady who was a dancer and she said

00:17:43.340 basically you're so kooky you you'd be perfect for an actor you should give that a try and so he found

00:17:49.400 out that he could get acting lessons on the gi bill and so he went in and he was accepted to

00:17:54.740 sanford meisner's playhouse which is a very famous acting studio in new york city at that time in the

00:18:00.700 1950s and meisner was one of the top acting instructors at the time i mean he and lee strasberg kind of

00:18:07.480 ruled that scene and meisner was a little bit kinder strasberg could be brutal at times but

00:18:13.700 so anyway he he got into it discovered there were a lot of women in there i mean there's no doubt that 0.99

00:18:19.660 that was an influence but then discovered that he was actually quite good and that all those odd jobs

00:18:25.320 in his background fed into acting because it gave him these experiences that he could draw on so it just

00:18:33.920 it just so happened that okay yeah he stumbled upon this and all of a sudden he discovers he's pretty

00:18:39.260 good at it so um and then he got positive reinforcement which i think is the first time

00:18:44.100 he ever got that in his life now he always talked about how he didn't really care about acting but

00:18:49.260 you know he did i just matter of fact i just interviewed somebody who was his roommate back

00:18:53.740 in greenwich village when he just first started out and he always talked about how mcqueen had three

00:18:58.380 and four jobs so that he could go to school so i mean to me that says that you know he worked hard

00:19:04.580 for it we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:09.260 and now back to the show it's just a lot of things people that know about him he started off

00:19:13.540 in the stage and then transitioned to television and that was like most people when they got to

00:19:19.060 television like that was a dead end how did steve mcqueen break the barrier from television and get

00:19:24.820 into the movies well that came with we should probably first establish that he was on what televisions

00:19:30.220 wanted dead or alive was on cbs and that was a top 10 television show for the first two years

00:19:36.280 then they switched it from saturday to wednesday night and then it killed it but mcqueen didn't

00:19:41.560 necessarily mind that because his focus was always on the movies and at that time there was a line

00:19:46.740 of demarcation in terms of movies and television and so mcqueen had always wanted to become a movie star

00:19:54.440 and so no one had really made that leap before until uh he started in the great escape and i i say

00:20:01.360 metaphorically when he made that leap over the barbed wire fence in the great escape he also made

00:20:06.560 the leap from television stardom to movie stardom and he was the first one to do so so that was that

00:20:11.580 was the great escape that was the movie that made him a star because he did a couple other movies before

00:20:16.580 great escape yes and he did he did the magazine seven which was which was a big which was a big hit

00:20:21.540 but that was starring yule brenner and steve was second lead the great escape was kind of the first

00:20:26.880 time that was his breakout role and it's like okay a new star is here and he has come in a new form

00:20:33.040 and he's he's not john wayne and he's you know he's not gary cooper he is a star he's a new star

00:20:39.680 and this is he's a star for the beatles generation he was also in the blob people forget that too

00:20:44.940 yes he was and the funny thing was at the time he hated the blob thought it would go away

00:20:50.520 and when he got his start on wanted they're alive the the week that he got his debut on television

00:20:57.380 that's when the people of the blob that said okay this might be a good time to debut this film so

00:21:02.060 he was doing double duty there but uh the blob he was he was kind of ashamed about and then years 0.53

00:21:07.220 later on he he kind of just uh he he he lightened up quite a bit all right so the great escape was the

00:21:13.620 movie that catapulted him to stardom and then after that he just had a string like hit after hit after

00:21:18.660 hit in the 60s and into like the early 70s like at what point did like he become known as like people

00:21:25.040 were like hey not elizabeth star but like he has transcended stardom and he is the king of cool like

00:21:29.400 we're gonna call him that when do you think that happened you know i that's the the most ironic thing

00:21:34.280 is i've always tried to look up who coined the king of cool i could never find that out but that was

00:21:39.960 definitely a term that was given to him in the 60s and that was because of like you said that run

00:21:45.080 of those run of hits that which started with cincinnati kid nevada smith thomas crown affair

00:21:50.780 the sand pebbles and bullet so five hits back to back in a row not sure if that's been done before

00:21:57.560 or since but and then bullet of course being the biggest of all so those things kind of enhanced

00:22:03.120 his stardom but bullet i mean that he went from movie stardom to you know superstar and you know

00:22:09.200 when you enter the superstar realm you know you're in rarefied air so one thing you talk about throughout

00:22:15.480 his book is like he was a star and he was also incredibly professional when he worked like when he

00:22:19.820 was there to work he worked but he was also incredibly difficult to work with he was fiercely

00:22:25.600 competitive with other actors even directors how did that manifest itself and like why did people

00:22:31.580 keep wanting like to work with him even though for lack of a better word he was like a complete a-hole 0.89

00:22:36.520 well the competitive part is yeah that's what he had to do in order to reach the mountaintop he was

00:22:43.180 willing to climb over bodies you saw that the most in new york city but you also saw that in the early

00:22:48.500 part of his acting career and he was a young upstart and um he didn't go for the uh older actors who

00:22:55.340 like yule brenner who um when he walked on the set of the magazine seven he would snap his fingers

00:23:01.480 and then there was somebody in his entourage that would place a cigarette in his hand

00:23:05.900 and then a lighter to light it and mcqueen didn't mcqueen just didn't like that because he was just a

00:23:12.580 rebel through and through he didn't go for that movie star i i mean he loved movie stardom he liked

00:23:18.200 the perks of it but he didn't like acting like that he always wanted forever be the rebel he didn't want

00:23:23.500 to be that show busy movie star that you know that acted like that so it's interesting that he was

00:23:31.400 competitive with other actors and he was difficult with with directors i don't think he was difficult

00:23:37.260 with directors just to be difficult i think he knew what he wanted and and you know he there was a

00:23:42.420 there's a quote in my new book called steve mcqueen and his own words where he talked about compromise

00:23:47.120 and he said if you compromise one thing it's up there on the screen so i respect him for that and so i

00:23:53.820 think he was the only guy and he was he was breaking ground at the time so he was the only guy that

00:23:58.440 really knew what he wanted and how he wanted to portray himself so maybe the screenplay didn't

00:24:04.620 show that but he wanted to to do things that were really good for him and he and robert wise the

00:24:10.700 director of the sand pebbles said i never knew another actor who knew what he wanted as much as steve

00:24:16.320 mcqueen did so i think that that's why there was some difficulty but in terms of why people wanted to

00:24:21.460 work with him well it's that's that's easy to answer if you've ever met any actor in hollywood the next

00:24:27.060 thing they do is looking for their next gig so and and having a steve mcqueen film on your resume

00:24:33.400 looks pretty good so that's why they continue to work with him i just don't think that they knew

00:24:38.040 what they were in for when they did work with him so but you know there were it it depended if you

00:24:43.900 got in his way or not you know like obviously yul brenner got in his way frank sinatra did not

00:24:48.420 because frank sinatra didn't care about being a star and he told john surges give the kid all the

00:24:52.660 close-ups but the interesting thing was is when mcqueen was now an established star and if he

00:24:57.760 thought somebody was trying to steal the picture from him boy they got his wrath yeah there's

00:25:04.260 instances where uh like i like you know steve mcqueen was short he was like five nine right or

00:25:09.860 something like that and if someone pointed that out he'd get really he'd get he was touchy he had

00:25:14.400 a chip on his shoulder yeah well there's a funny story the director of le mans his first day well

00:25:19.000 john sturgis was the initial director and then another gentleman came on named lee catson and

00:25:25.640 lee catson was a television director and so when he was directing his first scene he said something

00:25:30.860 to the effect of now steve because you're short i want you to stand over here he did that in front

00:25:36.840 of the crew and mcqueen grabbed him by the tie lifted him up and he said it's mr mcqueen to you

00:25:42.900 and so he would do things like that to establish uh you know obviously that was that was something

00:25:48.980 that was provoked within him but he would do things like that to establish his power all right

00:25:53.920 so you mentioned le mans that's his race car movie besides being you know a celebrated actor mcqueen

00:25:59.680 was also he was a legitimate race car driver like a professional driver how did he get started with

00:26:03.720 race car driving well uh i think it started in in new york city he was racing on weekends to earn

00:26:10.080 extra money and then of course when he he got to hollywood and he got the tv show the very first thing

00:26:15.060 he did was purchase a race car for for racing on the weekends because that's what he loved he said

00:26:20.500 when he got that first trophy he got instantly hooked and it wasn't just a it wasn't just a hobby

00:26:26.040 for him it was a release and it was part of one again one of the quotes in the new book talks about

00:26:32.080 how he wanted to have an identity apart from acting and race car driving gave him that but it also gave

00:26:38.460 him a thrill it gave him equilibrium because he respected the drivers because he said you know if you're

00:26:44.420 lousy other other people in that that professor will tell you how lousy you are and he goes it

00:26:48.680 makes me think that i'm not god's gift to humanity so there were several reasons why he liked race car

00:26:54.180 driving his radio there's a story and they're talking about it's not really related to race car

00:26:58.620 driving but kind of bruce lee him and steve mcqueen were buddies and bruce lee i guess got a fancy car

00:27:03.780 like a porsche like that and steve mcqueen took him for a joyride and scared the bejesus out of

00:27:09.020 what happened was lee was contemplating buying a porsche and and lee was kind of going through

00:27:14.400 the hollywood trip himself you know he was um now that he'd become a star in asia you know he's

00:27:19.720 growing his hair a little bit longer he was smoking pot he was wearing the sunglasses so the next thing

00:27:24.820 he wanted to do was the tight blue jeans so the next thing he wanted to do was buy a porsche and steve

00:27:30.480 said well listen bruce these these cars aren't toys and let me just take you for a test ride in mind and so

00:27:36.060 yeah he took him on this ride where you know he was doing spins and doing all these crazy things

00:27:41.980 and um you know at the end of the ride lee was like shriveled down in the seat this macho man bruce lee

00:27:48.640 right the reason we queen did that though was to put bruce lee in his place because bruce lee was

00:27:52.160 coming back crowing about how he was a bigger star and making more money than steve mcqueen well but but

00:27:57.360 even better here's what mcqueen did well yeah he lee had written him a letter saying i'm a bigger star to

00:28:03.360 more people across the country than you are you know he was talking about his asian stardom and so

00:28:09.400 the way that mcqueen answered that was he sent him a signed eight by ten and said to bruce my my biggest

00:28:15.620 fan and that just not only put him in his place but it was just so sweet and subtle and short and to

00:28:22.940 the point so mcqueen besides being a famous actor he was a sex symbol like women flocked to him

00:28:30.880 and this got him into trouble we talk talk about his his marriages like what do you think the

00:28:36.860 appeal was with women like why do you think women were so drawn to steve mcqueen well again it goes

00:28:42.580 to that x factor you know i'm i i kind of draw a correlation between me and my brother mark

00:28:47.620 and you know i i'm an okay looking guy but mark is a he has something about him like he he's chiseled

00:28:55.020 he's he's got this animal quality i remember this this one lady who was a friend of mine just like 0.83

00:29:00.520 who's that and i said that's my brother and she goes oh man he's like a wild animal and i think

00:29:06.280 women pick up on that and i think with with steve mcqueen that was what he was he was just like this

00:29:11.520 feral animal that had to be tamed and women just you know that they went crazy over that now 0.98

00:29:18.720 there there was a price to be paid for that you know they could have a short-term relationship with

00:29:24.760 them and that would work out just fine but the women that had long-term relationships with them 1.00

00:29:29.060 that didn't work out so well right so yeah i mean it was interesting about steve mcqueen is that he

00:29:33.660 was very liberal with you know his relationships privately but like publicly he put on this face like

00:29:39.900 i love traditional relationships a traditional marriage and this sort of paradox manifests itself

00:29:45.680 big time with his first wife that's true and and um um uh you know chris rock had this uh famous

00:29:53.080 saying in one of his uh monologues and that a man is as faithful as his options and i try to put

00:30:00.700 myself in mcqueen's shoes if you were a guy in hollywood at his age uh with that kind of testosterone

00:30:06.460 and women throwing themselves at you it would be very very easy to fall prey to that uh but yes he did

00:30:12.340 go about and and this was kind of the thing that you did in the 60s you talked about you know you

00:30:17.720 didn't brag about how sexy you were you talked about you know your family values and how traditional

00:30:22.620 you were you know how this rebel has been tamed but behind the scenes it was completely different

00:30:27.680 because he was at uh you know the whiskey a go-go every night and you know he he was he was uh friendly

00:30:32.900 with the owner elmer valentine and you know he was picking up women left and right and uh you know the

00:30:38.400 sunset strip was his playground but you know the he and his wife had an understanding he would he would

00:30:44.660 come home at night to her and you know she was accepting of that for a long time until finally

00:30:49.600 uh you know with the the end of the 60s and into the early 70s you know it just got to be too

00:30:55.500 flagrant and she couldn't stand it any longer well what was interesting you said like he would even

00:30:59.700 like after a fling he would come home and tell her like yeah i had a thing with so and so

00:31:04.940 hard it's hard to understand that but yes i mean you know neil had written about that that was his

00:31:11.240 first wife in her book about how that was kind of like his way of confessing and getting this sin

00:31:16.740 off of his chest what what i mean oh i thought it was interesting you make this point is that

00:31:21.260 like you see he had three wives throughout his his life and you make this case that each wife like

00:31:27.460 kind of for mcqueen it was sort of utilitarian in a way like they served a purpose for each part of his

00:31:32.700 career and his life like his first wife played an instrumental role in his rise to start like what do

00:31:38.300 what was her role do you think well that that's what it was neil represented the rise to stardom

00:31:45.080 and popularity and and perhaps you know even despite what we talked about it was it was a very very

00:31:51.520 steady relationship and then ali mcgraw his second wife was almost representative of his retreat into

00:31:59.960 malibu and into his hermit phase and then barbara mcqueen was almost like his uh his re-emergence

00:32:07.540 again so um that's kind of how i looked at things and how i looked at those marriages

00:32:13.160 well so mcqueen he was a philanderer he was highly competitive and that could be good or bad

00:32:20.060 could be petty thin skin but he was also privately and this again he was very private about this he

00:32:25.420 was also very privately generous and kind how did that manifest itself throughout his life

00:32:30.360 well he was of the belief that uh um charity should be done anonymously you know and i i really

00:32:37.120 respect that and you know that did show itself throughout his life he he was he was all those

00:32:43.180 things that you talked about before but there was that other flip side to him and that he was generous

00:32:47.320 not only was he generous with the boys republic but like there were like little things like

00:32:52.520 for example on the set of papillon there was a he had coconuts cut for him every morning and he'd drink

00:33:00.020 the coconut milk or eat the coconut and one day the guy that was making those coconuts sliced through

00:33:05.460 his fingers with a machete and they were basically basically hanging on by a thread and mcqueen had

00:33:11.300 him helicoptered to miami and you know made sure that his whole medical bill was was taken care of

00:33:17.280 the same thing happened to one of the writers i think was uh mert law will on on any sunday where

00:33:24.060 he mangled his hand and he had to go in for a special special operation mcqueen set it all up and

00:33:31.720 paid for everything and there was an incident in the latter part of his life where he read about a

00:33:37.720 kid with cancer who probably wasn't going to make it you know past christmas so he arranged it to where

00:33:42.820 the kid would have a limousine pick him up and take him to disneyland and you know have have this

00:33:48.120 whole day to himself so mcqueen did do wonderful things like that that showed that he just wasn't 0.98

00:33:53.480 uh you know this jerk he was you know there was his other side to him that was quite nice you know 0.77

00:33:58.180 and i've heard just as many nice stories about steve mcqueen as i have heard bad stories and i think 0.99

00:34:03.080 that has to do with when he was in hollywood and he was making films you know he was absolutely

00:34:07.860 ruthless but when he was away from it and he could be himself then then he was a different person

00:34:13.460 and one of my i think the most touching stories like he'd go back to the boys republic and just

00:34:18.360 visit and like hang out with the boys play pool with them like just hang out talk to them just

00:34:24.160 just because like there's like this big movie star talking to these kids i'm sure it made their made

00:34:28.060 their year well and the thing was he he wanted to show them he wanted to give them a role model of

00:34:34.220 hey i've i've been exactly where you are and you can do you can go on to do great things and that

00:34:40.300 was his so he did that he didn't say it but that that was the reason why he did it yeah i think i

00:34:45.460 think his quote was uh you know in life you got to pay back you know you you you owe so this is what

00:34:50.880 i do all right so he had this string of hits that ended with bullet and he just became just a huge

00:34:56.900 star like when did his star start to plummet or start to dim a bit like when do you think the moment

00:35:02.020 was well it was you know he he got he got bigger and bigger i mean now le mans was le mans is

00:35:07.720 interesting because it was uh not a box office smash or a critical hit but it was certainly big

00:35:14.860 in the european crowd and it was today it's got this life like you wouldn't believe with all the

00:35:20.220 the racers it's it's you know that is now the gold standard for all racing films but and then he also

00:35:26.500 had a another uh flop with junior bonner but then he came back really big in 72 with the getaway

00:35:33.180 followed by papillon followed by the towering inferno now everybody laughs at the towering

00:35:37.760 inferno today as a disaster movie but that disaster movie was the highest grossing film

00:35:42.760 of all time for about six months until jaws replaced it but towering inferno grossed about

00:35:47.880 300 million dollars in 1974 dollars so what happened was he got a salary of a million dollars and then

00:35:54.740 profit participation i think of 7.5 percent of the gross which gave him

00:35:59.580 like 14 million dollars in 1974 dollars that'd be equivalent of like 60 to 75 million today

00:36:05.480 so what he did was he got he got burned out he i don't i think what happened was he didn't think

00:36:10.560 that he could top himself after the towering inferno and he got a little burned out and he you know he

00:36:16.060 he'd had the relationship with ali mcgraw and he was in the public eye for a very very long time so he

00:36:21.080 retreated to malibu and he didn't do a film for a while he but he still had a film obligation

00:36:27.580 which was um first artist which he'd had he had to deliver three films the first one was the getaway

00:36:34.080 but he still hadn't delivered the the second and the third so he took off a couple years that's when

00:36:39.720 his his his star faded a bit but again it wasn't because he was uh in a bad film it was because he

00:36:48.240 just took himself out he just he could no longer it was i mean it's kind of equivalent of michael jordan

00:36:52.760 when he uh took himself out of basketball he was just it was just he was he was too too hot and so

00:36:58.820 he just uh just took himself out so but the vehicle that he chose as his comeback well it wasn't really

00:37:04.660 a comeback but he he had to fulfill that obligation was called an enemy of the people and it was a

00:37:09.300 henrik ipson play and mcqueen had this beard and and and long hair and wore granny glasses didn't look

00:37:15.620 anything like himself and it was a play and it was unlike anything that he had ever done before

00:37:19.840 and he did it basically as an fu to the uh movie studio executive who kept pressing him for that

00:37:26.740 obligation so that was that was one obligation and then um he took off another couple years after that

00:37:32.240 and then he came back with tom horn which was um 1980 and it was a flop because it was that but that

00:37:40.260 was the last of his first artist obligation and then the hunter which was billed as his big big comeback

00:37:46.780 and then that was kind of thwarted by the fact that he was diagnosed with cancer and then the news got

00:37:53.480 out that he had cancer well yeah during the 70s like he where he took that break it sounds like he

00:37:58.100 he kind of he accomplished what he wanted to accomplish he got to the top and he said he became a hermit

00:38:02.800 like he started wearing disguises and even like picking up odd jobs like he'd be like a bartender

00:38:08.480 or like working construction just yeah he was a bartender at a place called the old place

00:38:13.620 and all the all the uh and it's still around and the old place is just like this funky old western

00:38:19.320 saloon and you know he just uh and so there were there were that's where he went to go drink and

00:38:24.440 there were sometimes like you know he became friendly with all the bartenders and when they get busy

00:38:28.860 he'd say hey i want to help and so um and he wasn't the only movie star i i heard there were other

00:38:33.920 movie stars that like wanted to quit the business and just wanted to be a bartender so that was an

00:38:38.780 interesting strange phenomenon that happened at that bar all right so you kind of you kind of got burnt out

00:38:43.280 from being a star and then he this is when he married ali mcgraw that relationship ended

00:38:47.880 and then he meets a model named barbara minty who was like 25 years younger than him and what's

00:38:55.460 interesting like this look and this is like this like the third phase of mcqueen's life and he seems

00:38:59.680 to really so he had like he was you know ambitious chip on his shoulder during the 60s uh maybe early

00:39:05.660 70s 70s he had like he just got burnt out uh kind of had a midlife crisis kind of became like a hippie a

00:39:11.560 little bit sort of talking like you know saying far out and things like that and growing his beard

00:39:16.060 out and then this last part of his life like he really started i think kind of came to peace with

00:39:22.660 himself that that sort of he found what he was looking for uh since he was a kid and a big part

00:39:28.500 of that is something a lot of people don't know about steve mcqueen is he uh became a born-again

00:39:33.760 christian during this part of his life he tells about this part of steve mcqueen's life sure yeah that

00:39:39.540 that happened with the move to uh santa paula which is about an hour outside of la and that's

00:39:45.940 the antique plane capital of the world and so mcqueen was a kind of an impulsive guy and and um

00:39:52.040 barbara minty his his widow told me she said he was he was on the bathroom shitter when he was

00:39:59.020 flipping through a airplane magazine and and spotted this antique airplane that he wanted

00:40:04.740 and then like called bought it all of a sudden he's flying airplanes and then all of a sudden

00:40:12.320 he's uh going to uh santa paula like driving there almost every day to fly his plane because he wants

00:40:18.340 to uh you know solo so when he's up there in santa paula he's he's being taught by a guy named sammy

00:40:24.180 mason and sammy was a test pilot he was a world war ii guy about 10 years older than steve and steve was

00:40:31.740 looking for a father figure all his life because his father obviously he never knew his dad and his

00:40:36.900 father walked when he was six months old and so sammy was had this thing about him that this presence

00:40:43.100 about him that steve couldn't quite put his finger on so one day steve said what's different about you

00:40:47.580 i can't quite put my finger on you and that's when sammy said well steve i'm a born-again christian

00:40:52.320 and so from that point on steve tried to emulate sammy and he um started asking him hey can i go to

00:40:59.660 church with you can i sit with you so something had obviously taken hold and then i spoke to the

00:41:06.060 pastor of that church who said one day after three you know he had heard about steve mcqueen attending

00:41:12.580 but you know he made it a point and he made a point of telling his congregation do not bug this man

00:41:16.540 he said one day three months after he started attending i get this tap on my shoulder and it's steve

00:41:21.780 and he asked me to go to lunch and so steve they went to lunch and he said that steve grilled

00:41:27.000 him for about two hours on the christian faith and the christian walk and he answered all his

00:41:32.600 questions and when he was and when so when steve was finishing he smiled and said okay well that

00:41:37.200 that answers about all i have and so the the pastor his name's leonard dewitt he said well steve i only

00:41:44.860 have one question for you and steve smiled and said you want to know if i'm a born-again christian

00:41:49.820 don't you and he said yes that's that's all that really matters to me and steve said well do you

00:41:54.260 remember you know a couple weeks ago when you had that invitation to accept christ into our hearts

00:42:00.180 and say a prayer and he goes yes he goes well i did that and so people noticed that there was a

00:42:06.320 change in him his his widow you know said one day steve just said we're going to church let's go get you

00:42:12.080 some dresses because he didn't want her he was kind of old-fashioned a lot of ways he went her to

00:42:16.840 wear like a dowdy dress that went below her knees and then they they had bible study lessons

00:42:22.020 because they were going to get married and they were going to learn how to be become a christian

00:42:25.500 couple so these were things that that steve was doing at the end of his life and this was before

00:42:30.900 he had the cancer a lot of people like to peg it to oh you know he had cancer so he knew he's dying

00:42:35.700 he's preparing himself this that that wasn't the case he was he was he was going to church in the

00:42:40.780 spring of 79 and he was diagnosed with cancer in december of 79 so that that disproves that and then

00:42:47.880 people also said that you know the people you interviewed that his i don't know his demeanor

00:42:51.680 changed like he became less volatile and just i don't know less mean he just kind of mellowed out

00:42:56.840 after this this happened that's that's true and and again he continued on with doing nice things like

00:43:03.240 on the set of the hunter his his stuntman lauren jane said that he saw these kids uh tossing a

00:43:10.120 football around and it was a like this football laced with wire stuffed with rags and that he looked at

00:43:16.840 lauren and lauren knew that as a cue to he gave lauren like 300 bucks and so lauren went out and 0.85

00:43:22.240 bought all these footballs baseballs baseball bats lined them up in the field one day and then the

00:43:27.400 kids just kind of went at it and then there was also another case where he learned of this young

00:43:32.260 lady by the name of karen wilson who came to the movie to came who came to the set every day and he

00:43:38.940 said why aren't you in school and she was telling about telling him about well her life you know

00:43:43.000 their mother was an addict and that she was dying and that she needed the money and steve steve and

00:43:49.720 barbary pretty much adopted this young lady and i'm in touch with her to this day and uh karen um

00:43:55.540 is in the banking industry and she she often credits steve with saving her life so these are the kind of

00:44:01.300 the the unknown stories the the nice stories of steve mcqueen so those were the things that he did as he

00:44:06.900 got older and mellowed out and you know and and bud ekins his best friend just said you know he was

00:44:12.320 just became a nicer human being so you mentioned you know he got methylcineoma because of that stint

00:44:17.320 he did in the brig and finally manifested itself in the late 70s and this is when he he starts dying

00:44:22.800 this is like the final act the steam of queen it was like really it was so sad like i was like man i

00:44:27.140 was i was rooting for i was hoping he'd make it through uh even though i know the end of the story

00:44:31.680 and what made this his death even sadder it was like how public it was like the first time

00:44:37.340 a celebrity's death was incredibly public which made it even more uh unpleasant can you tell us

00:44:44.040 about the end of steve mcqueen's life well yes and and specifically in regard to the the gossip rags

00:44:51.360 i think at that time and i write this in that book that the national inquire was was taken over by a new

00:44:58.140 editor who had new ethics and you know he felt that steve mcqueen was a public figure people would

00:45:04.300 want to know about him and i think they a nurse who had his medical records steve's medical records

00:45:10.760 tipped off the national inquire and they wrote a story about it and so from that point on there was

00:45:16.880 kind of a death watch on steve mcqueen and i can't think of another celebrity where that happened

00:45:23.300 where they would just you know watch this person and then put out bounties there was a bounty on steve

00:45:29.320 for fifty thousand dollars to get a picture of him in his cancer riddle state and you know when he

00:45:36.240 passed away there was a really ugly incident where the media came in and took pictures of his body in

00:45:43.060 the morgue and that was the mexican media and there was a one member of um of uh and i and i actually

00:45:49.960 talked to him and i asked him why he did that because this guy told me that mcqueen was his hero

00:45:55.460 and he said i was a young reporter and was told to you know to do my job and if i didn't come back

00:46:02.320 with that role of film i'd be fired so that's how things got now uh you know today i think that still

00:46:10.780 exists to some certain extent but but at that point that's that was kind of the start of that and

00:46:15.460 and you know that's where um it perhaps was its ugliest and you know what was also sad about his

00:46:22.420 death it was like mcqueen was both at times the way the the vibe that i got was that vibe he liked

00:46:28.000 to use that word vibe mcqueen did was that he like was kind of he was at peace both at peace with his

00:46:34.040 with his you know that he was dying but also really desperate to like keep living and even in fact he did

00:46:39.420 these really controversial cancer treatments down in mexico because he really thought it would work and he

00:46:45.040 could you know get out of this yeah and he flip-flopped between if he was going to live or die

00:46:50.360 and you know the main reason why he kept going was for his kids you know he wanted to live for his kids

00:46:56.020 so you certainly can't blame a guy for for wanting to do that so you know just it was just very sad

00:47:05.040 but you know he was he was such a strong guy that was hard for everybody to comprehend that

00:47:09.720 you know he had cancer so that's what made the story even more compelling was this this macho

00:47:15.580 action star has cancer and he's ailing and we should probably document it you know that's that

00:47:22.440 was again that was the attitude at that time so you you spent better part of you know almost 40 years

00:47:29.780 writing about steve mcqueen and talking to people that knew him like what's your like what are some

00:47:34.360 like the big takeaways from steve mcqueen like how has he influenced i mean has he like changed your

00:47:39.640 life or like you've done things you've emulated emulated things about steve mcqueen or i mean

00:47:43.400 what what's your takeaway as a biographer well i can say that he's influenced my life in terms of my

00:47:48.980 career i wouldn't have a literary career without steve mcqueen as in terms of emulating him i'd have to

00:47:55.540 say no what i would try to do or learn the lessons of his life but he was a guy that pulled himself up

00:48:02.320 by the bootstraps you know back back then america's uh economy wasn't such that you had many choices

00:48:08.600 especially for somebody who had a ninth grade education so i mean he was a guy that had a terrible

00:48:14.240 background didn't have many choices economically but worked hard and once he got into acting he worked

00:48:20.240 incredibly hard and then became uh this mega star so i mean it's proof that the the american dream

00:48:26.300 still exists and um so that that's kind of the takeaways that i have for him is that he in a way

00:48:33.000 he's in the embodiment of an american dream but in his personal life certainly was not but you know

00:48:38.640 he showed that you could come from any circumstance and and become very successful in terms of will there

00:48:44.620 other be another actor like steve mcqueen you know that's like saying will there be another john

00:48:50.080 wayne will there be another beatles will there be another bruce lee um the and the answer is no

00:48:55.180 will there be another elvis presley no because you know they they broke the mold they're they're i

00:49:00.460 call them their icons who are iconoclasts you know they they broke the mold and they're all you know

00:49:06.420 nobody should even try to emulate them or try to be like them they they need to be their own person

00:49:11.940 and they have their own identity well marshall it's been a great conversation is there some place

00:49:15.680 people can go to learn more about your work and your latest book too about steve mcqueen

00:49:19.180 well the latest book is called steve mcqueen in his own words and you can get that at www daltonwatson.com

00:49:26.220 as far as my work the best place to go is to go on go on amazon.com you'll see all the variety

00:49:31.560 books that i've written fantastic well marshall terrell thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:49:35.300 well thank you so much i i enjoyed it my guest name is marshall terrell he's the author of multiple

00:49:41.260 mcqueen biographies his latest is steve mcqueen in his own words they're all available on amazon.com

00:49:46.020 also check out our show notes at aom.is slash mcqueen we find links to resources we delve deeper

00:49:50.700 into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast and it wraps up another year of

00:50:02.780 podcast putting out two podcasts week after week for 52 weeks out of the year isn't just me it's a

00:50:07.820 team effort so i want to take this time to thank those involved in making the art of manliness podcast

00:50:12.020 happen first off we have kate mckay our podcast editor she listens to each episode over and over

00:50:16.680 again makes cuts make sure things flow right it's snappy so thank you kate for all the work you do

00:50:21.440 also have jeremy anterberg our podcast producer he just oversees the whole podcast process he lines up

00:50:26.500 our guests he makes sure guests has mics he does sound checks with guests you know uploads the podcast

00:50:30.840 makes sure everything goes out on time it just oversees the process so thank you jeremy for doing that

00:50:34.820 they also have creative audio lab there are sound engineers based out of broken air oklahoma we give them

00:50:39.200 the podcast they clean it up make sure it sounds as the best that we can so thank you to them and

00:50:44.300 finally thank you to all who listen to the aom podcast your support is what make this happen

00:50:48.580 thank you for listening thank you for sharing we're looking forward to another year 2021 of art of

00:50:53.420 manliness podcast so until next time this is brett mckay reminding you not only listen to aom podcast

00:50:59.280 but put what you've heard into action

00:51:01.600 you

00:51:13.660 you

00:51:14.420 you

00:51:18.380 you

The Art of Manliness - January 06, 2021

The Complex Coolness of Steve McQueen

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