The Complex Coolness of Steve McQueen
Episode Stats
Summary
Marshall Terrell has traced both sides of the coin of Steve McQueen s coolness for decades. He is the author of multiple biographies on Mcqueen, including his latest, The King of Cool: Steve McQueen and His Life in Hollywood. In his own words, he discusses McQueen's enduring influence on popular culture in terms of everything from style to motorcycles, the code he lived both on and off screen, and the role race cars played in his life.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast performances by
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the actor steve mcqueen in classic films like the great escape and bullet earned him the nickname
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the king of cool but behind the scenes mcqueen's character is complex in nature he could be both
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difficult and demanding and kind and generous someone who could act aloof but care about things
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deeply my guest has traced both sides of the coin of mcqueen's coolness for decades his name is
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marshall terrell and he's the author of multiple biographies on mcqueen including his latest steve
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mcqueen in his own words today on the show marshall i discuss mcqueen's enduring influence on popular
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culture in terms of everything from style to motorcycles the code mcqueen lived both on and
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off screen and whether after years of studying mcqueen's life marshall has figured out what made
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him so cool we then talk about mcqueen's deprived childhood which left him ever craving affirmation
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and his youthful stints in a reform school in the marines we get into how he found his way into
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acting into superstardom despite the fact that he could be very difficult to work with marshall
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explains mcqueen's relationships with women and the role race car driving played in his life we
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also discuss why mcqueen had a hermit phase and how in a lesser known aspect of his life he had a
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literal come to jesus moment in which became a born-again christian and we end our conversation
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with mcqueen's untimely tabloid exploited death at age 50 after the show's over check out our show notes
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at aom.is mcqueen all right marshall terrell welcome to the show hey thank you for having me
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so you are a journalist and a biographer and you've written several biographies of different celebrities
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and famous men cultural icons you've done one on elvis presley pete maravich you've done some things
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on johnny cash but one subject you've written extensively about is actor steve mcqueen the king
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of cool when did you start writing about steve mcqueen and what initially drew you to him as a subject
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i first started writing about him in the late 80s now my first book was published
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in 1993 but you know my research started in the late 80s he didn't become a cultural icon at that
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time but by the time my book got published in 93 he did so it was great timing for me what drew me
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to him as a subject was because there was a connection to him as a kid my dad was the real
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steve mcqueen fan my dad just passed away in july and he was 83 years old and like every time there
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was a steve mcqueen movie on television or if there was a movie out in the theater we'd go
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and that was kind of our thing and and mcqueen was his guy and so that was the connection so we're
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going to get into steve mcqueen's career here in our interview but you know big idea i mean i think
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i'm 38 i've seen steve mcqueen movies my my parents they grew up watching steve mcqueen movie
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watched the great escape towering inferno but for some people like he died before
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they were born who are listening to this podcast so can you give us an idea how big of a star
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he was at his peak like i mean how famous was he and like what sort of influence did he have on
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popular culture during the peak of his career in terms of how big of a star he was you have to
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understand back then there wasn't the concentration level of of media and movies and streaming and dvd
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and television there was there was a line of demarcation between television star and movie
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star and he was a movie star and there were only about i want to say five to seven movie stars at
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that time who could open a film and steve mcqueen was one of them the other was paul newman john wayne
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clint eastwood stars of those caliber got all of them now today are icons so that's how big he was
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in in terms of again going back to popular culture you know in the great escape he wore this ripped
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t-shirt you know like they didn't have a collar or sleeves and you know you could count on guys like
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that wearing shirts like that in terms of motorcycles i mean what he did for the motorcycle
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industry cannot be underestimated i mean he he uh he popularized it because before that you know you
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had marlon brando in the wild one where there were outlaws and mcqueen kind of even though he was a
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rebel he's he sort of sanitized motorcycle riding because uh with the documentary on any sunday
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and then in thomas crown you know with the suits he he popularized uh the the british cut of men's
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suits so he he cut this wide swath of of popular culture in terms of fashion machinery coolness i
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mean just he was he was uh there's no one today that you can really compare him to there are elements
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of brad pitt there are elements of george clooney and i i would i say even denzel washington in terms
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of acting like if you if you see the equalizer today you can see and so so his his his influence
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really was was on acting so the influence that he has today is just is tremendous i mean perhaps even
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bigger than in his lifetime yeah i mean still today guys are still trying to dress like steve mcqueen
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they'll do the turtleneck like in bullet with the suit you know the the jacket over it the peril
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sunglasses they're still doing that you know 40 years after he died that's true that's true yes that's
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that's the fashion side but there's still the machinery side i mean there's you know the bull
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mustang still comes out with a car every five years and that's that's strictly because of the mcqueen
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legacy you know mcqueen was into antique uh airplane flying and antique motorcycle collecting and
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an antique car collecting and you know i mean look at how big those industries are i mean that's huge
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and mcqueen was really kind of the first celebrity to do that and how do you think he changed or
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influenced you know our ideas of american masculinity that we still see today
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i would say the the influence is more in the 60s than it is today because the the the what i what i
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see today in terms of masculinity cannot be compared to the to a man of the 60s and and that's not to
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put it down it's just to say it's changed so much i'd say his his influence really is is more on
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is on fashion in terms of masculinity i mean yeah it's up there on the screen and guys definitely
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want to be like him but in today's society i don't know if you can get away with that sort of behavior
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i'm not sure well we'll talk about some of his behavior because he had he was infamous for his
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behavior but before we do like what do you think as i was reading your biography the thing that stuck
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out to me is that mcqueen when he we'd go into these auditions or he just and meet somebody and
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people be like that that guy's got something that guy is cool like there's something about that guy
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i don't know what it is but we got to hire him and make him a part of this make him the star of the
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movie like in your years of researching mcqueen and writing about him were you ever able to figure
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out like what that thing was like what made him so cool and people wanted to work with him even though
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he was difficult to work with men wanted to be like him and women wanted to be with him like what
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what was that thing well it's what they call the x factor and and you can't really describe it the
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only thing i can come close to is there was this animal magnetism that came out in him i mean he had
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it in real life but he really honed it to a fine point for his movie characters so he was he was what
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you saw on the screen but there was also this insecure side but in terms of what he wanted in himself
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as a movie star you know though he you know he he popularized those and he he kind of i would say he
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created the the movie archetype of today's modern action hero so those were the the things that that
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people obviously wanted to emulate but in terms of talking about the archetype i mean we're talking
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about things like you know he was he was the unreluctant guy that got trapped into a situation has to get
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himself out i don't i don't think you saw that with with movie heroes of of yesteryear like john
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wayne or gary cooper queen was a different type of movie action hero and it was more believable and
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you know just the things that he did were unbelievably cool when he got himself out of it so it's really
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hard to to put a finger on you know what made him cool or intriguing other than just you know he had
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that x factor yeah he was an anti-hero that was one of his the character he played throughout of
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all his music like the anti-hero he wasn't he's kind of in it for himself like he was just there
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to survive for himself and get his but along the way like he had a code that he would you know he
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would follow and wouldn't cross there's boundaries he wouldn't cross even though he's looking out for
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number one that's correct and you see that really he pulls that off quite well in the great escape
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he's in it for himself but at the end of it you know that he's going to end up doing the right thing
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and he ends up making the sacrifice you know for the for the whole uh squadron that that was that
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was imprisoned and so that that was true he had his own code a lot of his own codes in his personal
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life ended up on the movie screen you know for example in one a dead or alive the the writer had
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written had written written it where mcqueen beats up three guys and mcqueen's like no no no that's
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that doesn't happen here's what you do you back down and then you find each one of them individually
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and then you kick their butt and that's what he did in the marines you know he uh he found guys
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taking a leak in the latrine and then you know he blasted the door open and then kicked their ass
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and they did it and he found these guys one by one but when they you know when they treaded on him
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three on one then he backed down so those were the types of codes that you saw in his films and
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the other code is you know always live up to your word never double cross anybody and do your end
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in that you see that in the getaway you know there was there would have been a chance where he could
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have double crossed the actor al letary and he said nope you know gotta you know we we live up to our
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word and then that way you know nobody's chasing us well they ended up trying to double cross him
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anyway but those were the kinds of things that mcqueen had in his films that resonated you know with
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audiences so a big theme in your your book your 2010 biography is that to understand mcqueen
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and i'd say even like his coolness like what made him cool like that x factor you have to understand
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his childhood because that influenced like his entire life what was his childhood like and how
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did it affect his personal life in his career well the british i'll always like to compare his life to
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to a charles dickens novel and that's not too far from the truth he had both of his parents were
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alcoholics and his father took a walk when he was six months old and his mother was not really very
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loving towards him and so and she was a young lady i think she was 19 when she had him and so she was a
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party girl and so once she did give birth to him you know they went to live with his grandparents and
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then sometimes she would go off on her own and then live somewhere away and then marry somebody and
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then bring steve into this hostile situation and then he gets sent back to the farm in slater missouri
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uh with his uh with his uncle claude and so it affected him the rest of his life because he just
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couldn't shake it and so you saw a lot of that on film and how it shaped his compulsion to be famous
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was because you know it was miserable he wanted he wasn't unlike a lot of other movie stars at that
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time for example i did a book with an actor named ed cookie burns who did 77 sunset strip and it seemed
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like everybody who was trying to run away or wanted to to better their lives they would just
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run to hollywood you know you know with mcqueen it was pretty much the same yeah he wanted to be loved
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because he didn't get that love as a kid basically absolutely and um and the the the ironic thing is
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is that once he did get love then he questioned it so yeah but that that was an interesting part of
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his personality right that affected his relationships a lot when you talk about his relationships with his
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wives that he had and other women as well here in a bit but besides living with his uncle which he had
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that guy had a profound impact on him taught the importance of hard work and brought a lot of
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discipline and stability that he didn't have he also did a stint at a like a boy's town in california
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that also had a big influence on the rest of his life tell us about that well yes it was called boys
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republic and he was 14 what had happened was is that he was getting into a lot of fights with his
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stepfather and it was an untenable situation and so his mother basically put him there and then boys
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republic is in chino california and so it's a a reform school but without walls without fences
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and they and it's kind of discipline based and they get up in the morning they milk cows at 4 a.m
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and then they do studies all day then they milk cows again and basically what it was was a it was a
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little town and they had things like city councils and they learned about society which was really
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cool i mean and so mcqueen had to learn to what he said is i had to learn to exist within it otherwise
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you know i would have been a hood so it really saved his life in a lot of ways so it taught him
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discipline it taught him how society worked it gave him an education even though he left by ninth grade
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i've seen a lot of his letters and and you know fairly sharp guy for for a ninth grade education
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his letters were very very very precise to the point and you know have a lot of clarity so i was
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always surprised that well you know when you look at somebody with a ninth grade education you think oh
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well that steve mcqueen was very very not only very sharp in terms of of like letter writing but he
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was sharp in terms of street smarts and reading people that's where his real intelligence came in
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yeah they even showed signs of that of being able to read people and i wouldn't say manipulate but
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like influence them uh even as a kid at this boy's republic right and some of that too came from him
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being on the street i remember his one of his best friends pat johnson said as a street kid you have to
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learn to act you have to learn how to react to people and you know here was this line that he
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delivered to me that i'll never forget he goes steve mcqueen was an actor way before he went to
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hollywood right well so yeah so he leaves the boys he runs away and then he kind of becomes an
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urchin basically during high school goes to new york city goes to different places does odd jobs
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then he did a stint in the marines uh what was his military career like was it longer distinguished
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you know the funny thing is is that he signed for a three-year stint and he was 17 years old and he had
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to get permission from his mother and the interesting thing is he sent about half of his paycheck home to
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his mother and you know people always talked about how he hated his mother but there are signs there
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too where he you know supported her and loved her but the the three-year stint you know i i brought
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the i've got his military file and i brought it to a friend of mine who was a drill sergeant in the
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marines and lifelong marine guy and looked at it and he said you know for for a peacetime soldier he did
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very well but you know mcqueen always liked to embellish his image as a pure rebel all the time
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and so i think one of the quotes he gave was you know the only way i'd become a lieutenant is if all
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the other ones dropped dead and they promoted me but that wasn't the case this sergeant that uh i had
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looked at his file say that you know he was you know he he moved up fairly quickly in the ranks and
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tested quite well so um it wasn't but then then there were cases where he lied about what happened
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in the marines for example he he gave a interview with a movie magazine and of course the the writer
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got a little carried away but you know he talked about how he saved these people during these exercises
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in in labrador and mcqueen saved five people well that was never in his military file and he always
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talked about guarding harry truman's yacht and then i i asked a fellow soldier who served with him about
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that and he said you know what harry truman's yacht was on a sandbar and he goes and a tree was growing
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through it but you know if you if you had guard duty for it then you know it sounds pretty good on
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your resume but so those are the types of things that i would find but the other thing interesting
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thing i found in his uh military file was that he did do uh 41 days in the brig for going a wall
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and wasn't so much for going a wall but when he got caught he got caught by a police officer and they
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got into a fight and that's why he got thrown in the brig for as long as he did and the sad part is
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part of his punishment was cleaning out the hull of a ship in the washington dc uh naval yards
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and in those pipes where it was loaded with asbestos and that was in december of 1949 and the form of
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cancer they had was called mesothelioma and it takes 20 to 30 years to develop and in december
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of 1979 that's when he went to cedar sinai to check out what was wrong with him so it took
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almost exactly 30 years to develop and we'll talk about his death that was like the saddest part in
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the book really tragic his death so he did the military got out and started kind of rambling around
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again how did he stumble in i mean the way you describe it it seemed he kind of stumbled into
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acting it wasn't like something he had ambitions to do he kind of fell into it and was like this is
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great i don't have to like work all that hard and i get to hang out with chicks and uh do some work
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and that's it so how did that happen well you know he was dating a lady who was a dancer and she said
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basically you're so kooky you you'd be perfect for an actor you should give that a try and so he found
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out that he could get acting lessons on the gi bill and so he went in and he was accepted to
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sanford meisner's playhouse which is a very famous acting studio in new york city at that time in the
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1950s and meisner was one of the top acting instructors at the time i mean he and lee strasberg kind of
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ruled that scene and meisner was a little bit kinder strasberg could be brutal at times but
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so anyway he he got into it discovered there were a lot of women in there i mean there's no doubt that
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that was an influence but then discovered that he was actually quite good and that all those odd jobs
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in his background fed into acting because it gave him these experiences that he could draw on so it just
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it just so happened that okay yeah he stumbled upon this and all of a sudden he discovers he's pretty
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good at it so um and then he got positive reinforcement which i think is the first time
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he ever got that in his life now he always talked about how he didn't really care about acting but
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you know he did i just matter of fact i just interviewed somebody who was his roommate back
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in greenwich village when he just first started out and he always talked about how mcqueen had three
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and four jobs so that he could go to school so i mean to me that says that you know he worked hard
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for it we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors
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and now back to the show it's just a lot of things people that know about him he started off
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in the stage and then transitioned to television and that was like most people when they got to
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television like that was a dead end how did steve mcqueen break the barrier from television and get
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into the movies well that came with we should probably first establish that he was on what televisions
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wanted dead or alive was on cbs and that was a top 10 television show for the first two years
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then they switched it from saturday to wednesday night and then it killed it but mcqueen didn't
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necessarily mind that because his focus was always on the movies and at that time there was a line
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of demarcation in terms of movies and television and so mcqueen had always wanted to become a movie star
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and so no one had really made that leap before until uh he started in the great escape and i i say
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metaphorically when he made that leap over the barbed wire fence in the great escape he also made
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the leap from television stardom to movie stardom and he was the first one to do so so that was that
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was the great escape that was the movie that made him a star because he did a couple other movies before
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great escape yes and he did he did the magazine seven which was which was a big which was a big hit
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but that was starring yule brenner and steve was second lead the great escape was kind of the first
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time that was his breakout role and it's like okay a new star is here and he has come in a new form
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and he's he's not john wayne and he's you know he's not gary cooper he is a star he's a new star
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and this is he's a star for the beatles generation he was also in the blob people forget that too
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yes he was and the funny thing was at the time he hated the blob thought it would go away
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and when he got his start on wanted they're alive the the week that he got his debut on television
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that's when the people of the blob that said okay this might be a good time to debut this film so
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he was doing double duty there but uh the blob he was he was kind of ashamed about and then years
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later on he he kind of just uh he he he lightened up quite a bit all right so the great escape was the
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movie that catapulted him to stardom and then after that he just had a string like hit after hit after
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hit in the 60s and into like the early 70s like at what point did like he become known as like people
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were like hey not elizabeth star but like he has transcended stardom and he is the king of cool like
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we're gonna call him that when do you think that happened you know i that's the the most ironic thing
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is i've always tried to look up who coined the king of cool i could never find that out but that was
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definitely a term that was given to him in the 60s and that was because of like you said that run
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of those run of hits that which started with cincinnati kid nevada smith thomas crown affair
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the sand pebbles and bullet so five hits back to back in a row not sure if that's been done before
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or since but and then bullet of course being the biggest of all so those things kind of enhanced
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his stardom but bullet i mean that he went from movie stardom to you know superstar and you know
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when you enter the superstar realm you know you're in rarefied air so one thing you talk about throughout
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his book is like he was a star and he was also incredibly professional when he worked like when he
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was there to work he worked but he was also incredibly difficult to work with he was fiercely
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competitive with other actors even directors how did that manifest itself and like why did people
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keep wanting like to work with him even though for lack of a better word he was like a complete a-hole
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well the competitive part is yeah that's what he had to do in order to reach the mountaintop he was
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willing to climb over bodies you saw that the most in new york city but you also saw that in the early
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part of his acting career and he was a young upstart and um he didn't go for the uh older actors who
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like yule brenner who um when he walked on the set of the magazine seven he would snap his fingers
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and then there was somebody in his entourage that would place a cigarette in his hand
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and then a lighter to light it and mcqueen didn't mcqueen just didn't like that because he was just a
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rebel through and through he didn't go for that movie star i i mean he loved movie stardom he liked
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the perks of it but he didn't like acting like that he always wanted forever be the rebel he didn't want
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to be that show busy movie star that you know that acted like that so it's interesting that he was
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competitive with other actors and he was difficult with with directors i don't think he was difficult
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with directors just to be difficult i think he knew what he wanted and and you know he there was a
00:23:42.420
there's a quote in my new book called steve mcqueen and his own words where he talked about compromise
00:23:47.120
and he said if you compromise one thing it's up there on the screen so i respect him for that and so i
00:23:53.820
think he was the only guy and he was he was breaking ground at the time so he was the only guy that
00:23:58.440
really knew what he wanted and how he wanted to portray himself so maybe the screenplay didn't
00:24:04.620
show that but he wanted to to do things that were really good for him and he and robert wise the
00:24:10.700
director of the sand pebbles said i never knew another actor who knew what he wanted as much as steve
00:24:16.320
mcqueen did so i think that that's why there was some difficulty but in terms of why people wanted to
00:24:21.460
work with him well it's that's that's easy to answer if you've ever met any actor in hollywood the next
00:24:27.060
thing they do is looking for their next gig so and and having a steve mcqueen film on your resume
00:24:33.400
looks pretty good so that's why they continue to work with him i just don't think that they knew
00:24:38.040
what they were in for when they did work with him so but you know there were it it depended if you
00:24:43.900
got in his way or not you know like obviously yul brenner got in his way frank sinatra did not
00:24:48.420
because frank sinatra didn't care about being a star and he told john surges give the kid all the
00:24:52.660
close-ups but the interesting thing was is when mcqueen was now an established star and if he
00:24:57.760
thought somebody was trying to steal the picture from him boy they got his wrath yeah there's
00:25:04.260
instances where uh like i like you know steve mcqueen was short he was like five nine right or
00:25:09.860
something like that and if someone pointed that out he'd get really he'd get he was touchy he had
00:25:14.400
a chip on his shoulder yeah well there's a funny story the director of le mans his first day well
00:25:19.000
john sturgis was the initial director and then another gentleman came on named lee catson and
00:25:25.640
lee catson was a television director and so when he was directing his first scene he said something
00:25:30.860
to the effect of now steve because you're short i want you to stand over here he did that in front
00:25:36.840
of the crew and mcqueen grabbed him by the tie lifted him up and he said it's mr mcqueen to you
00:25:42.900
and so he would do things like that to establish uh you know obviously that was that was something
00:25:48.980
that was provoked within him but he would do things like that to establish his power all right
00:25:53.920
so you mentioned le mans that's his race car movie besides being you know a celebrated actor mcqueen
00:25:59.680
was also he was a legitimate race car driver like a professional driver how did he get started with
00:26:03.720
race car driving well uh i think it started in in new york city he was racing on weekends to earn
00:26:10.080
extra money and then of course when he he got to hollywood and he got the tv show the very first thing
00:26:15.060
he did was purchase a race car for for racing on the weekends because that's what he loved he said
00:26:20.500
when he got that first trophy he got instantly hooked and it wasn't just a it wasn't just a hobby
00:26:26.040
for him it was a release and it was part of one again one of the quotes in the new book talks about
00:26:32.080
how he wanted to have an identity apart from acting and race car driving gave him that but it also gave
00:26:38.460
him a thrill it gave him equilibrium because he respected the drivers because he said you know if you're
00:26:44.420
lousy other other people in that that professor will tell you how lousy you are and he goes it
00:26:48.680
makes me think that i'm not god's gift to humanity so there were several reasons why he liked race car
00:26:54.180
driving his radio there's a story and they're talking about it's not really related to race car
00:26:58.620
driving but kind of bruce lee him and steve mcqueen were buddies and bruce lee i guess got a fancy car
00:27:03.780
like a porsche like that and steve mcqueen took him for a joyride and scared the bejesus out of
00:27:09.020
what happened was lee was contemplating buying a porsche and and lee was kind of going through
00:27:14.400
the hollywood trip himself you know he was um now that he'd become a star in asia you know he's
00:27:19.720
growing his hair a little bit longer he was smoking pot he was wearing the sunglasses so the next thing
00:27:24.820
he wanted to do was the tight blue jeans so the next thing he wanted to do was buy a porsche and steve
00:27:30.480
said well listen bruce these these cars aren't toys and let me just take you for a test ride in mind and so
00:27:36.060
yeah he took him on this ride where you know he was doing spins and doing all these crazy things
00:27:41.980
and um you know at the end of the ride lee was like shriveled down in the seat this macho man bruce lee
00:27:48.640
right the reason we queen did that though was to put bruce lee in his place because bruce lee was
00:27:52.160
coming back crowing about how he was a bigger star and making more money than steve mcqueen well but but
00:27:57.360
even better here's what mcqueen did well yeah he lee had written him a letter saying i'm a bigger star to
00:28:03.360
more people across the country than you are you know he was talking about his asian stardom and so
00:28:09.400
the way that mcqueen answered that was he sent him a signed eight by ten and said to bruce my my biggest
00:28:15.620
fan and that just not only put him in his place but it was just so sweet and subtle and short and to
00:28:22.940
the point so mcqueen besides being a famous actor he was a sex symbol like women flocked to him
00:28:30.880
and this got him into trouble we talk talk about his his marriages like what do you think the
00:28:36.860
appeal was with women like why do you think women were so drawn to steve mcqueen well again it goes
00:28:42.580
to that x factor you know i'm i i kind of draw a correlation between me and my brother mark
00:28:47.620
and you know i i'm an okay looking guy but mark is a he has something about him like he he's chiseled
00:28:55.020
he's he's got this animal quality i remember this this one lady who was a friend of mine just like
00:29:00.520
who's that and i said that's my brother and she goes oh man he's like a wild animal and i think
00:29:06.280
women pick up on that and i think with with steve mcqueen that was what he was he was just like this
00:29:11.520
feral animal that had to be tamed and women just you know that they went crazy over that now
00:29:18.720
there there was a price to be paid for that you know they could have a short-term relationship with
00:29:24.760
them and that would work out just fine but the women that had long-term relationships with them
00:29:29.060
that didn't work out so well right so yeah i mean it was interesting about steve mcqueen is that he
00:29:33.660
was very liberal with you know his relationships privately but like publicly he put on this face like
00:29:39.900
i love traditional relationships a traditional marriage and this sort of paradox manifests itself
00:29:45.680
big time with his first wife that's true and and um um uh you know chris rock had this uh famous
00:29:53.080
saying in one of his uh monologues and that a man is as faithful as his options and i try to put
00:30:00.700
myself in mcqueen's shoes if you were a guy in hollywood at his age uh with that kind of testosterone
00:30:06.460
and women throwing themselves at you it would be very very easy to fall prey to that uh but yes he did
00:30:12.340
go about and and this was kind of the thing that you did in the 60s you talked about you know you
00:30:17.720
didn't brag about how sexy you were you talked about you know your family values and how traditional
00:30:22.620
you were you know how this rebel has been tamed but behind the scenes it was completely different
00:30:27.680
because he was at uh you know the whiskey a go-go every night and you know he he was he was uh friendly
00:30:32.900
with the owner elmer valentine and you know he was picking up women left and right and uh you know the
00:30:38.400
sunset strip was his playground but you know the he and his wife had an understanding he would he would
00:30:44.660
come home at night to her and you know she was accepting of that for a long time until finally
00:30:49.600
uh you know with the the end of the 60s and into the early 70s you know it just got to be too
00:30:55.500
flagrant and she couldn't stand it any longer well what was interesting you said like he would even
00:30:59.700
like after a fling he would come home and tell her like yeah i had a thing with so and so
00:31:04.940
hard it's hard to understand that but yes i mean you know neil had written about that that was his
00:31:11.240
first wife in her book about how that was kind of like his way of confessing and getting this sin
00:31:16.740
off of his chest what what i mean oh i thought it was interesting you make this point is that
00:31:21.260
like you see he had three wives throughout his his life and you make this case that each wife like
00:31:27.460
kind of for mcqueen it was sort of utilitarian in a way like they served a purpose for each part of his
00:31:32.700
career and his life like his first wife played an instrumental role in his rise to start like what do
00:31:38.300
what was her role do you think well that that's what it was neil represented the rise to stardom
00:31:45.080
and popularity and and perhaps you know even despite what we talked about it was it was a very very
00:31:51.520
steady relationship and then ali mcgraw his second wife was almost representative of his retreat into
00:31:59.960
malibu and into his hermit phase and then barbara mcqueen was almost like his uh his re-emergence
00:32:07.540
again so um that's kind of how i looked at things and how i looked at those marriages
00:32:13.160
well so mcqueen he was a philanderer he was highly competitive and that could be good or bad
00:32:20.060
could be petty thin skin but he was also privately and this again he was very private about this he
00:32:25.420
was also very privately generous and kind how did that manifest itself throughout his life
00:32:30.360
well he was of the belief that uh um charity should be done anonymously you know and i i really
00:32:37.120
respect that and you know that did show itself throughout his life he he was he was all those
00:32:43.180
things that you talked about before but there was that other flip side to him and that he was generous
00:32:47.320
not only was he generous with the boys republic but like there were like little things like
00:32:52.520
for example on the set of papillon there was a he had coconuts cut for him every morning and he'd drink
00:33:00.020
the coconut milk or eat the coconut and one day the guy that was making those coconuts sliced through
00:33:05.460
his fingers with a machete and they were basically basically hanging on by a thread and mcqueen had
00:33:11.300
him helicoptered to miami and you know made sure that his whole medical bill was was taken care of
00:33:17.280
the same thing happened to one of the writers i think was uh mert law will on on any sunday where
00:33:24.060
he mangled his hand and he had to go in for a special special operation mcqueen set it all up and
00:33:31.720
paid for everything and there was an incident in the latter part of his life where he read about a
00:33:37.720
kid with cancer who probably wasn't going to make it you know past christmas so he arranged it to where
00:33:42.820
the kid would have a limousine pick him up and take him to disneyland and you know have have this
00:33:48.120
whole day to himself so mcqueen did do wonderful things like that that showed that he just wasn't
00:33:53.480
uh you know this jerk he was you know there was his other side to him that was quite nice you know
00:33:58.180
and i've heard just as many nice stories about steve mcqueen as i have heard bad stories and i think
00:34:03.080
that has to do with when he was in hollywood and he was making films you know he was absolutely
00:34:07.860
ruthless but when he was away from it and he could be himself then then he was a different person
00:34:13.460
and one of my i think the most touching stories like he'd go back to the boys republic and just
00:34:18.360
visit and like hang out with the boys play pool with them like just hang out talk to them just
00:34:24.160
just because like there's like this big movie star talking to these kids i'm sure it made their made
00:34:28.060
their year well and the thing was he he wanted to show them he wanted to give them a role model of
00:34:34.220
hey i've i've been exactly where you are and you can do you can go on to do great things and that
00:34:40.300
was his so he did that he didn't say it but that that was the reason why he did it yeah i think i
00:34:45.460
think his quote was uh you know in life you got to pay back you know you you you owe so this is what
00:34:50.880
i do all right so he had this string of hits that ended with bullet and he just became just a huge
00:34:56.900
star like when did his star start to plummet or start to dim a bit like when do you think the moment
00:35:02.020
was well it was you know he he got he got bigger and bigger i mean now le mans was le mans is
00:35:07.720
interesting because it was uh not a box office smash or a critical hit but it was certainly big
00:35:14.860
in the european crowd and it was today it's got this life like you wouldn't believe with all the
00:35:20.220
the racers it's it's you know that is now the gold standard for all racing films but and then he also
00:35:26.500
had a another uh flop with junior bonner but then he came back really big in 72 with the getaway
00:35:33.180
followed by papillon followed by the towering inferno now everybody laughs at the towering
00:35:37.760
inferno today as a disaster movie but that disaster movie was the highest grossing film
00:35:42.760
of all time for about six months until jaws replaced it but towering inferno grossed about
00:35:47.880
300 million dollars in 1974 dollars so what happened was he got a salary of a million dollars and then
00:35:54.740
profit participation i think of 7.5 percent of the gross which gave him
00:35:59.580
like 14 million dollars in 1974 dollars that'd be equivalent of like 60 to 75 million today
00:36:05.480
so what he did was he got he got burned out he i don't i think what happened was he didn't think
00:36:10.560
that he could top himself after the towering inferno and he got a little burned out and he you know he
00:36:16.060
he'd had the relationship with ali mcgraw and he was in the public eye for a very very long time so he
00:36:21.080
retreated to malibu and he didn't do a film for a while he but he still had a film obligation
00:36:27.580
which was um first artist which he'd had he had to deliver three films the first one was the getaway
00:36:34.080
but he still hadn't delivered the the second and the third so he took off a couple years that's when
00:36:39.720
his his his star faded a bit but again it wasn't because he was uh in a bad film it was because he
00:36:48.240
just took himself out he just he could no longer it was i mean it's kind of equivalent of michael jordan
00:36:52.760
when he uh took himself out of basketball he was just it was just he was he was too too hot and so
00:36:58.820
he just uh just took himself out so but the vehicle that he chose as his comeback well it wasn't really
00:37:04.660
a comeback but he he had to fulfill that obligation was called an enemy of the people and it was a
00:37:09.300
henrik ipson play and mcqueen had this beard and and and long hair and wore granny glasses didn't look
00:37:15.620
anything like himself and it was a play and it was unlike anything that he had ever done before
00:37:19.840
and he did it basically as an fu to the uh movie studio executive who kept pressing him for that
00:37:26.740
obligation so that was that was one obligation and then um he took off another couple years after that
00:37:32.240
and then he came back with tom horn which was um 1980 and it was a flop because it was that but that
00:37:40.260
was the last of his first artist obligation and then the hunter which was billed as his big big comeback
00:37:46.780
and then that was kind of thwarted by the fact that he was diagnosed with cancer and then the news got
00:37:53.480
out that he had cancer well yeah during the 70s like he where he took that break it sounds like he
00:37:58.100
he kind of he accomplished what he wanted to accomplish he got to the top and he said he became a hermit
00:38:02.800
like he started wearing disguises and even like picking up odd jobs like he'd be like a bartender
00:38:08.480
or like working construction just yeah he was a bartender at a place called the old place
00:38:13.620
and all the all the uh and it's still around and the old place is just like this funky old western
00:38:19.320
saloon and you know he just uh and so there were there were that's where he went to go drink and
00:38:24.440
there were sometimes like you know he became friendly with all the bartenders and when they get busy
00:38:28.860
he'd say hey i want to help and so um and he wasn't the only movie star i i heard there were other
00:38:33.920
movie stars that like wanted to quit the business and just wanted to be a bartender so that was an
00:38:38.780
interesting strange phenomenon that happened at that bar all right so you kind of you kind of got burnt out
00:38:43.280
from being a star and then he this is when he married ali mcgraw that relationship ended
00:38:47.880
and then he meets a model named barbara minty who was like 25 years younger than him and what's
00:38:55.460
interesting like this look and this is like this like the third phase of mcqueen's life and he seems
00:38:59.680
to really so he had like he was you know ambitious chip on his shoulder during the 60s uh maybe early
00:39:05.660
70s 70s he had like he just got burnt out uh kind of had a midlife crisis kind of became like a hippie a
00:39:11.560
little bit sort of talking like you know saying far out and things like that and growing his beard
00:39:16.060
out and then this last part of his life like he really started i think kind of came to peace with
00:39:22.660
himself that that sort of he found what he was looking for uh since he was a kid and a big part
00:39:28.500
of that is something a lot of people don't know about steve mcqueen is he uh became a born-again
00:39:33.760
christian during this part of his life he tells about this part of steve mcqueen's life sure yeah that
00:39:39.540
that happened with the move to uh santa paula which is about an hour outside of la and that's
00:39:45.940
the antique plane capital of the world and so mcqueen was a kind of an impulsive guy and and um
00:39:52.040
barbara minty his his widow told me she said he was he was on the bathroom shitter when he was
00:39:59.020
flipping through a airplane magazine and and spotted this antique airplane that he wanted
00:40:04.740
and then like called bought it all of a sudden he's flying airplanes and then all of a sudden
00:40:12.320
he's uh going to uh santa paula like driving there almost every day to fly his plane because he wants
00:40:18.340
to uh you know solo so when he's up there in santa paula he's he's being taught by a guy named sammy
00:40:24.180
mason and sammy was a test pilot he was a world war ii guy about 10 years older than steve and steve was
00:40:31.740
looking for a father figure all his life because his father obviously he never knew his dad and his
00:40:36.900
father walked when he was six months old and so sammy was had this thing about him that this presence
00:40:43.100
about him that steve couldn't quite put his finger on so one day steve said what's different about you
00:40:47.580
i can't quite put my finger on you and that's when sammy said well steve i'm a born-again christian
00:40:52.320
and so from that point on steve tried to emulate sammy and he um started asking him hey can i go to
00:40:59.660
church with you can i sit with you so something had obviously taken hold and then i spoke to the
00:41:06.060
pastor of that church who said one day after three you know he had heard about steve mcqueen attending
00:41:12.580
but you know he made it a point and he made a point of telling his congregation do not bug this man
00:41:16.540
he said one day three months after he started attending i get this tap on my shoulder and it's steve
00:41:21.780
and he asked me to go to lunch and so steve they went to lunch and he said that steve grilled
00:41:27.000
him for about two hours on the christian faith and the christian walk and he answered all his
00:41:32.600
questions and when he was and when so when steve was finishing he smiled and said okay well that
00:41:37.200
that answers about all i have and so the the pastor his name's leonard dewitt he said well steve i only
00:41:44.860
have one question for you and steve smiled and said you want to know if i'm a born-again christian
00:41:49.820
don't you and he said yes that's that's all that really matters to me and steve said well do you
00:41:54.260
remember you know a couple weeks ago when you had that invitation to accept christ into our hearts
00:42:00.180
and say a prayer and he goes yes he goes well i did that and so people noticed that there was a
00:42:06.320
change in him his his widow you know said one day steve just said we're going to church let's go get you
00:42:12.080
some dresses because he didn't want her he was kind of old-fashioned a lot of ways he went her to
00:42:16.840
wear like a dowdy dress that went below her knees and then they they had bible study lessons
00:42:22.020
because they were going to get married and they were going to learn how to be become a christian
00:42:25.500
couple so these were things that that steve was doing at the end of his life and this was before
00:42:30.900
he had the cancer a lot of people like to peg it to oh you know he had cancer so he knew he's dying
00:42:35.700
he's preparing himself this that that wasn't the case he was he was he was going to church in the
00:42:40.780
spring of 79 and he was diagnosed with cancer in december of 79 so that that disproves that and then
00:42:47.880
people also said that you know the people you interviewed that his i don't know his demeanor
00:42:51.680
changed like he became less volatile and just i don't know less mean he just kind of mellowed out
00:42:56.840
after this this happened that's that's true and and again he continued on with doing nice things like
00:43:03.240
on the set of the hunter his his stuntman lauren jane said that he saw these kids uh tossing a
00:43:10.120
football around and it was a like this football laced with wire stuffed with rags and that he looked at
00:43:16.840
lauren and lauren knew that as a cue to he gave lauren like 300 bucks and so lauren went out and
00:43:22.240
bought all these footballs baseballs baseball bats lined them up in the field one day and then the
00:43:27.400
kids just kind of went at it and then there was also another case where he learned of this young
00:43:32.260
lady by the name of karen wilson who came to the movie to came who came to the set every day and he
00:43:38.940
said why aren't you in school and she was telling about telling him about well her life you know
00:43:43.000
their mother was an addict and that she was dying and that she needed the money and steve steve and
00:43:49.720
barbary pretty much adopted this young lady and i'm in touch with her to this day and uh karen um
00:43:55.540
is in the banking industry and she she often credits steve with saving her life so these are the kind of
00:44:01.300
the the unknown stories the the nice stories of steve mcqueen so those were the things that he did as he
00:44:06.900
got older and mellowed out and you know and and bud ekins his best friend just said you know he was
00:44:12.320
just became a nicer human being so you mentioned you know he got methylcineoma because of that stint
00:44:17.320
he did in the brig and finally manifested itself in the late 70s and this is when he he starts dying
00:44:22.800
this is like the final act the steam of queen it was like really it was so sad like i was like man i
00:44:27.140
was i was rooting for i was hoping he'd make it through uh even though i know the end of the story
00:44:31.680
and what made this his death even sadder it was like how public it was like the first time
00:44:37.340
a celebrity's death was incredibly public which made it even more uh unpleasant can you tell us
00:44:44.040
about the end of steve mcqueen's life well yes and and specifically in regard to the the gossip rags
00:44:51.360
i think at that time and i write this in that book that the national inquire was was taken over by a new
00:44:58.140
editor who had new ethics and you know he felt that steve mcqueen was a public figure people would
00:45:04.300
want to know about him and i think they a nurse who had his medical records steve's medical records
00:45:10.760
tipped off the national inquire and they wrote a story about it and so from that point on there was
00:45:16.880
kind of a death watch on steve mcqueen and i can't think of another celebrity where that happened
00:45:23.300
where they would just you know watch this person and then put out bounties there was a bounty on steve
00:45:29.320
for fifty thousand dollars to get a picture of him in his cancer riddle state and you know when he
00:45:36.240
passed away there was a really ugly incident where the media came in and took pictures of his body in
00:45:43.060
the morgue and that was the mexican media and there was a one member of um of uh and i and i actually
00:45:49.960
talked to him and i asked him why he did that because this guy told me that mcqueen was his hero
00:45:55.460
and he said i was a young reporter and was told to you know to do my job and if i didn't come back
00:46:02.320
with that role of film i'd be fired so that's how things got now uh you know today i think that still
00:46:10.780
exists to some certain extent but but at that point that's that was kind of the start of that and
00:46:15.460
and you know that's where um it perhaps was its ugliest and you know what was also sad about his
00:46:22.420
death it was like mcqueen was both at times the way the the vibe that i got was that vibe he liked
00:46:28.000
to use that word vibe mcqueen did was that he like was kind of he was at peace both at peace with his
00:46:34.040
with his you know that he was dying but also really desperate to like keep living and even in fact he did
00:46:39.420
these really controversial cancer treatments down in mexico because he really thought it would work and he
00:46:45.040
could you know get out of this yeah and he flip-flopped between if he was going to live or die
00:46:50.360
and you know the main reason why he kept going was for his kids you know he wanted to live for his kids
00:46:56.020
so you certainly can't blame a guy for for wanting to do that so you know just it was just very sad
00:47:05.040
but you know he was he was such a strong guy that was hard for everybody to comprehend that
00:47:09.720
you know he had cancer so that's what made the story even more compelling was this this macho
00:47:15.580
action star has cancer and he's ailing and we should probably document it you know that's that
00:47:22.440
was again that was the attitude at that time so you you spent better part of you know almost 40 years
00:47:29.780
writing about steve mcqueen and talking to people that knew him like what's your like what are some
00:47:34.360
like the big takeaways from steve mcqueen like how has he influenced i mean has he like changed your
00:47:39.640
life or like you've done things you've emulated emulated things about steve mcqueen or i mean
00:47:43.400
what what's your takeaway as a biographer well i can say that he's influenced my life in terms of my
00:47:48.980
career i wouldn't have a literary career without steve mcqueen as in terms of emulating him i'd have to
00:47:55.540
say no what i would try to do or learn the lessons of his life but he was a guy that pulled himself up
00:48:02.320
by the bootstraps you know back back then america's uh economy wasn't such that you had many choices
00:48:08.600
especially for somebody who had a ninth grade education so i mean he was a guy that had a terrible
00:48:14.240
background didn't have many choices economically but worked hard and once he got into acting he worked
00:48:20.240
incredibly hard and then became uh this mega star so i mean it's proof that the the american dream
00:48:26.300
still exists and um so that that's kind of the takeaways that i have for him is that he in a way
00:48:33.000
he's in the embodiment of an american dream but in his personal life certainly was not but you know
00:48:38.640
he showed that you could come from any circumstance and and become very successful in terms of will there
00:48:44.620
other be another actor like steve mcqueen you know that's like saying will there be another john
00:48:50.080
wayne will there be another beatles will there be another bruce lee um the and the answer is no
00:48:55.180
will there be another elvis presley no because you know they they broke the mold they're they're i
00:49:00.460
call them their icons who are iconoclasts you know they they broke the mold and they're all you know
00:49:06.420
nobody should even try to emulate them or try to be like them they they need to be their own person
00:49:11.940
and they have their own identity well marshall it's been a great conversation is there some place
00:49:15.680
people can go to learn more about your work and your latest book too about steve mcqueen
00:49:19.180
well the latest book is called steve mcqueen in his own words and you can get that at www daltonwatson.com
00:49:26.220
as far as my work the best place to go is to go on go on amazon.com you'll see all the variety
00:49:31.560
books that i've written fantastic well marshall terrell thanks for your time it's been a pleasure
00:49:35.300
well thank you so much i i enjoyed it my guest name is marshall terrell he's the author of multiple
00:49:41.260
mcqueen biographies his latest is steve mcqueen in his own words they're all available on amazon.com
00:49:46.020
also check out our show notes at aom.is slash mcqueen we find links to resources we delve deeper
00:49:50.700
into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast and it wraps up another year of
00:50:02.780
podcast putting out two podcasts week after week for 52 weeks out of the year isn't just me it's a
00:50:07.820
team effort so i want to take this time to thank those involved in making the art of manliness podcast
00:50:12.020
happen first off we have kate mckay our podcast editor she listens to each episode over and over
00:50:16.680
again makes cuts make sure things flow right it's snappy so thank you kate for all the work you do
00:50:21.440
also have jeremy anterberg our podcast producer he just oversees the whole podcast process he lines up
00:50:26.500
our guests he makes sure guests has mics he does sound checks with guests you know uploads the podcast
00:50:30.840
makes sure everything goes out on time it just oversees the process so thank you jeremy for doing that
00:50:34.820
they also have creative audio lab there are sound engineers based out of broken air oklahoma we give them
00:50:39.200
the podcast they clean it up make sure it sounds as the best that we can so thank you to them and
00:50:44.300
finally thank you to all who listen to the aom podcast your support is what make this happen
00:50:48.580
thank you for listening thank you for sharing we're looking forward to another year 2021 of art of
00:50:53.420
manliness podcast so until next time this is brett mckay reminding you not only listen to aom podcast