The Art of Manliness - The Essential Guide to Getting Promoted

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.720 have you been languishing in the same role at work frustrated that you haven't been promoted

00:00:15.040 to a higher position with more pay and different responsibilities my guest can help you level up

00:00:19.620 in your career his name is randy ornstein and he's the author of grow the essential guide to

00:00:23.960 getting promoted today on the show randy explains why getting promoted is more beneficial to your

00:00:28.740 paycheck than getting a raise and his case for why you should stick with working for the same

00:00:32.580 company for a long time we then talk about the things you need to do so that management thinks

00:00:36.820 of you the next time a higher position opens up we discuss how promotable employees participate in

00:00:41.400 meetings execute the communication study their work and develop best practices we also talk about when

00:00:47.560 to bring up the idea of being promoted to your boss and a couple of the challenges that can come with

00:00:51.300 advancing up the ranks after show's over check out our show notes at awim.is get promoted

00:00:58.740 all right randy ornstein welcome to the show thank you brett appreciate it thanks for having me

00:01:24.820 so you got a new book out it's called grow the essential guide to getting promoted what led you

00:01:30.280 to write a book about getting promotions at work yeah it's been a very exciting process writing this

00:01:36.480 book but throughout my career mainly in beverages i was promoted nine times over my career and seven of

00:01:44.980 those times at anheuser-busch within a 15-year period and for me after a few of those promotions when i was

00:01:52.400 younger it became a game to me of like how how could i continue to grow up the corporate ladder

00:01:58.340 and be successful at this amazing company and earlier on in my career when i was low 20s

00:02:05.300 i would see that the vice presidents had like their own offices and like even gold plates that had their

00:02:13.540 names on it and i was like oh my god how could i ever get to that level i didn't think i had it in me

00:02:18.860 and i think i kept getting more confidence when i got promotions early on i don't think i was doing

00:02:25.840 anything spectacular but i guess i was doing enough to wow my boss and be the best person for the next

00:02:31.020 position and so as i've moved up the corporate ladder at anheuser-busch and people started to

00:02:37.420 notice i was periodically asked by this guy who led this program where he hired roughly 30 college

00:02:46.240 graduates every year to join anheuser-busch they would go through a six-month training program

00:02:51.340 and at the end of the program there was a graduation and i was asked to give the keynote speech

00:02:57.280 to talk about like how i moved up and got promoted anheuser-busch and some tips to succeed

00:03:03.360 and i i did this speech or a few times throughout my career i would usually have just five tips i'd have

00:03:10.720 one slide but like here's five tips i learned at anheuser-busch to get promoted and one would be

00:03:17.020 data is power and i would talk about how i use data effectively with my time working with walmart

00:03:23.240 or kroger target and one would be be persistent and i talk about how i was very persistent with the

00:03:30.080 people that i work with and years later those individuals would come up to me at different

00:03:36.740 meetings or happy hours and say randy i still remember those five tips that you gave me and

00:03:41.980 they really helped me throughout my career and you know it happened over and over again and it just

00:03:47.660 stuck and it got me thinking i should formalize this much better and write a book about them and

00:03:53.860 share them with the world yeah no i think it's interesting you point out at the beginning of your

00:03:58.020 book a lot of career books and business how-to books and articles they focus on how to get raises at

00:04:03.740 work which is you know that's that's good but you make the case that there's a benefit to thinking

00:04:08.240 about how to get a promotion instead of just thinking about how to get a raise so what are

00:04:12.080 the benefits of thinking about and pursuing promotions within your company instead of just

00:04:16.840 thinking about how can i get a raise yeah well first of all promotions are more monetarily valued at

00:04:24.040 so usually a promotion means that you get in the range of a 10 15 20 raise versus your

00:04:32.880 annual raise that you might get is usually between two and four percent so think about it if you were

00:04:40.000 to just get a raise in your current job it would take you like four five years to get to the same

00:04:47.060 value had you moved up one level in your company plus when you get a promotion and you move up you're

00:04:54.060 typically getting a bigger bonus and more equity in that company as well and so a promotion means

00:05:01.920 moving up a level getting more responsibility potentially managing people as well and you know

00:05:09.080 if money is one of those factors that you're looking to do you're going to make a lot more

00:05:13.420 money in a promotion than just a regular annual raise and i imagine too it gives you new opportunities

00:05:18.580 for growth you get to do things you didn't get to do at your previous level and there's value in

00:05:22.740 that as well for some people exactly i mean you want to understand more aspects of your business

00:05:29.460 versus just maybe the the niche that you're in today and so typically as you are promoted more

00:05:36.000 responsibility maybe more hours but you're also working with more leadership and when you work with

00:05:42.640 more leadership that are also not just in your department but different departments that gives you

00:05:48.740 more opportunities to grow as new jobs open up so i've seen articles i'm sure other people have seen

00:05:53.920 these articles too about how employees should switch employers more often because it'll increase their

00:05:59.940 chances of making more money right so the idea is if you switch employers you'll usually get a pay bump

00:06:04.520 but you highlight there are benefits of sticking with a single company and climbing up the corporate

00:06:10.120 ladder what are those benefits you think yeah i definitely disagree with those articles that you should

00:06:16.200 continue to move to different companies and get more money and while maybe that's true that you could get

00:06:23.400 a bigger salary you're building no loyalty with the companies that you work with and when you constantly

00:06:31.060 switch companies every two three years you're not even getting enough knowledge in that current company

00:06:36.560 to really deep dive and figure out everything you need to do to be successful when i interview people

00:06:44.440 for different jobs and i look at their resume and i see that they had a job every two years

00:06:51.120 and maybe five jobs over 10 years with five different companies i'm not going to hire that person

00:06:57.520 because why should i bring on a person for just two years knowing that after two years they're going to

00:07:02.640 get bored and move somewhere else and one aspect is maybe they're moving to different companies because

00:07:08.500 they can't get promoted in the current company and their only way to grow is to switch companies which

00:07:14.280 is not what i look for in a team member or someone to join my team so i'm looking for loyalty when i'm

00:07:23.020 looking to hire someone i'm thinking in five ten years could they eventually take my role you're always

00:07:28.860 trying to find better talent and so and you do build in the end long-term money because the longer you stay

00:07:36.940 with the existing company the more equity stock options that you would build within that company

00:07:43.460 if you left every few years most likely the equity that you potentially would have got

00:07:48.900 would not be worth anything because they have not been vested in time or worth anything and so

00:07:54.700 definitely value building your career staying with one two companies throughout what would you say

00:08:00.820 to the argument i've seen too i've read of people well i'm not going to be loyal to a company

00:08:05.120 because that company would just lay me off if they had to so why should i have that what would you say

00:08:10.880 to that what would you be your response to that i mean yes layoffs have been frequent but i think it's

00:08:18.480 like not everyone gets laid off and there's always like strategies of like i'm not going to be laying

00:08:24.700 off like my best talent and so if you are a strong worker you're building good relationships the chances of

00:08:31.860 you getting laid off are going to be much slimmer than others and so if you believe in the company

00:08:37.600 that you work for which you need to do and you think there's a good career mobility for you then i

00:08:44.300 would stick it out but if you're joining a company and you're just not excited then yeah maybe there's

00:08:48.900 an opportunity to move somewhere else but to move to companies every two to three years is just not a

00:08:53.940 recipe for success yeah i mean i imagine it takes it could take five ten years to really understand

00:09:01.780 what the company's doing for you to actually have success it's like you see this with um i get really

00:09:06.760 frustrated with sports teams they'll hire a coach and then if the coach doesn't produce results in a

00:09:11.840 year they fire them and i'm like man you need two three maybe even more than that to establish a system

00:09:18.060 introduce the system through all the levels not just the players but with the rest of the staff

00:09:22.320 you know it could take five years before you can turn a team around i hate how it's just like well

00:09:26.920 you didn't give us results right away you're done but it takes time to get results exactly and it's

00:09:33.140 the same in business i'm building a team right now at gopuff where i work and i brought in some really

00:09:39.100 good talent back in the end of 2021 and it takes them six months plus to get used to the systems that

00:09:46.180 we have and the changes versus their prior company and so now the bulk of my team has been here

00:09:51.840 a year a year and a half we're like just getting our groove and now we're having a really good year

00:09:56.680 and so you know in business it takes time too you got to build the team you got to train them

00:10:02.660 you know there's always going to be a little bit of turnover where you're constantly training but

00:10:06.880 it it takes time but not everyone thinks that way and they're just reacting quicker than than they want

00:10:14.540 and and that just is there is not a recipe for success all right so let's talk about what someone

00:10:19.880 can do to increase their chances of getting a promotion you cite research that job performance

00:10:25.480 is one of the factors most associated with moving up in a job so in the first part of your book you give

00:10:31.940 tips on better performance doing the the everyday things of your job excellently so let's talk about

00:10:38.660 some of the areas of work you can get better in starting with meetings a lot of people they hate

00:10:44.080 meetings but they're sometimes a necessary part of corporate life so what can you do to get more out

00:10:49.460 of your meetings so you can get promotions yeah i'm in meetings all day you know it's like straight

00:10:55.280 sometimes i don't even have a break to eat lunch it's the way we live the world we live you know

00:11:01.100 we're half virtual half in person and so could be sitting on zoom calls throughout the day and

00:11:07.080 it's important that number one you speak up you're not just like another person on that zoom call

00:11:13.020 or in person that's half listening half working and you're adding no value so it's really important

00:11:20.200 that if you're in a meeting you're paying attention you're listening to the speaker you're asking

00:11:25.560 questions or giving comments or providing feedback on how to improve so the people know that you're there

00:11:32.900 you're adding value you're listening you're learning you're changing processes you know i have many

00:11:39.620 team meetings with my team usually a monday and friday team meeting and then sporadic ones throughout the

00:11:44.680 week and i know which people speak up every time because they do it and i also notice which people

00:11:50.860 haven't said a thing in six weeks eight weeks and you know that's in my head as we do employer reviews

00:11:56.920 in the next cycle you know i'm asking why aren't they speaking up are they even listening to what i

00:12:02.680 say and so i think it's a pretty easy thing you'll get noticed as you add value in meetings and so you

00:12:10.460 got to pay attention you get off stop working think of questions to ask even if you can't get a question

00:12:17.520 out if you're on zoom type it into the chat or even send a note to the organizer after the meeting

00:12:23.900 and same in person raise your hand and speak up you know don't be afraid and just do it and of course

00:12:29.980 you want to speak up but like provide value just don't want to speak up just to take up airspace

00:12:34.840 right that can get annoying if you do that yeah it could be i think do it once in a while that's fine

00:12:40.280 even if you're agreeing with something but you also don't need to agree every time to everything

00:12:45.820 that people say you could push back i value the people that don't agree with what i say

00:12:50.900 but they also then provide a solution a better solution to what i said and i appreciate that

00:12:56.400 yeah you talk about in the book one of the frustrating things you have when you have a

00:12:59.440 meeting where you're looking for feedback you're looking for like devil's advocates yeah saying what's

00:13:03.600 wrong with this thing and no one says anything you're like oh geez this is not helpful guys i need

00:13:07.900 you to push back against me yeah i think it's okay like i'm not all-knowing nor is anyone all-knowing

00:13:14.460 we all have diverse backgrounds we all have unique experiences that we could add i'm usually

00:13:20.800 giving my perspective which could completely be wrong and i own that and i'm expecting the team

00:13:26.820 to challenge me if i have something that i'm presenting that's incorrect or inaccurate or if

00:13:32.080 they have a better way like that's the only way we're going to get better is if the cross-functional

00:13:37.300 or the diverse group comes together and builds together versus like one person saying how it is and

00:13:43.520 that's it i think a lot of people might be afraid of speaking up or being contradictory because

00:13:48.280 well i don't want to cause a scene or it might upset my boss but i think you just got to kind

00:13:54.140 of throw caution to the wind and just go for it and you can do this in a collegial way not to be a

00:13:57.980 jerk about it like you said point out the issue and then propose a solution right you know i i think 0.93

00:14:04.540 the the younger people are less apt to speaking up because usually they're in lower roles and they

00:14:11.740 might think that only the more senior people need to speak up that's a hundred percent not true

00:14:16.660 i have different age groups different genders on my team different experiences and i want to hear

00:14:24.080 from all types because even the younger consumer or the younger person on our team has a completely

00:14:30.420 different experience than someone that's 20 years older with kids and a family and versus the single

00:14:36.900 you know when we deal with my line of business where i manage the alcohol business at go puff our

00:14:42.720 core consumers a lot younger than the average and so it's important to hear from anyone no matter their

00:14:49.680 level no matter their age and you just got to do it it's just yeah even if you're shy it's important

00:14:57.420 if you truly want to get noticed and move up the ladder you can't be a silent person just sitting in

00:15:04.060 meetings half paying attention and not adding value okay so meetings you might hate them but

00:15:09.960 they're a necessary part of your job so get the most out of them another part of people's job that

00:15:14.760 they hate is communications so like email phone calls slack text but you said you got to excel at

00:15:21.360 this stuff so what's your advice on managing work communication i think it's like staying on top of

00:15:28.140 your your messages and we all get a lot of emails i think we get less phone calls than ever it's now

00:15:34.800 text slack and email i know walmart had a rule of thumb called the sundown rule where every buyer was

00:15:42.720 requested to respond to their suppliers by the end of the day so there's like a 24-hour rule

00:15:47.960 you know i've never operated with the rule nor has any company i worked with i think it's common

00:15:54.100 courtesy though that when a supplier or an intolerant person is contacting you for something

00:16:00.560 or asking you for something even if it's a no you should respond back in 24 or 48 hours

00:16:08.180 versus that person constantly re-emailing them every few days and you're just deleting it or not

00:16:15.880 responding it's it to me it's common courtesy i would expect the same if i'm trying to sell to someone

00:16:20.880 or sending an email to someone i want to make sure that i get a response back in a timely manner

00:16:25.560 certainly there's always issues where someone's on vacation or someone's really working on a busy

00:16:31.920 project but you know one way to get around this if you do have a very busy schedule is schedule a

00:16:39.300 meeting with yourself for 30 minutes a day or every two days where you're literally focused on responding

00:16:44.920 to the communications that you got i think slack is a little bit more instantaneous we use slack

00:16:51.740 for internal and so like if you hadn't respond to a slack message from your boss in 24 hours

00:16:58.360 you know that would be a no-no you're you're expected to have slack up on your screen

00:17:02.640 and responding all the time doesn't mean you need to respond within a minute but you just got to stay

00:17:09.580 on top of it and that's how we get business done yeah if you're not communicative and you're not

00:17:15.580 following up it's very hard it's just got to be part of the way that you work and you have to manage

00:17:20.660 that responsibly and you give some advice on how to manage this stuff so there's like tips on putting

00:17:27.560 acronyms in the headline so that people know well this is just for information so you don't have to

00:17:31.540 respond that's enough you don't want to do that thing where it's like a one-word response thanks

00:17:35.620 you just waste everyone's time with that and just wasting your time responding with thanks

00:17:39.260 i'm not a fan of someone responding thanks or one word as a response and then like five other people

00:17:47.940 then do it and now you have like six emails that are just wasting your time and so if you are going

00:17:54.300 to respond to an email where you're writing thank you for the information explain why you're thanking

00:17:59.900 them you go a little bit more in depth or if you do you have like an important email that you're

00:18:04.960 sending to a client or your boss make sure that in the header it says you know action i need a

00:18:13.180 response and then highlight in the email like exactly which question just so you could cut through a

00:18:19.700 little bit of the clutter especially if you need something urgent so definitely the way you write your

00:18:25.640 emails don't write a whole novel you know bullet point them better and if you need something urgently

00:18:30.480 responded to put a note in the header yeah the bullet points i do that with emails and i keep

00:18:36.620 the bullet points if it's like more than three it's probably i need to get on the phone and discuss

00:18:41.540 this because it's it's all the problem a lot faster just getting on the phone just hashing it outside of

00:18:45.120 having the person respond to like 10 different bullet points and you're a big proponent of the

00:18:49.240 telephone too if you need something right away or the problem is too complex for slack or email

00:18:54.300 don't be afraid of the telephone and that might be hard for younger workers who aren't you know it's

00:18:58.980 not something they do a lot but the phone can be really powerful yeah you sort of just said it a

00:19:03.840 minute ago like why would you need to waste time writing you know a long email it'll take you an hour to

00:19:09.640 write it versus just picking up the phone and talking for five minutes you just saved yourself a bunch

00:19:13.700 of time and in slack and we use it internally but we could quickly zoom or huddle with with internal

00:19:21.940 people external people you know a little tougher you got a text or call but yeah definitely i've noticed

00:19:29.240 that over the years the people that at least from my suppliers that call me are on the older side

00:19:35.980 because that's like what they're used to doing and the younger suppliers they're more for email so

00:19:42.220 phone is not lost it's important it's important to build relationships

00:19:46.340 and you just got to do it we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:50.840 and now back to the show to be good at communication that will make your boss's job easier staying on top

00:20:03.780 of your communication will get you noticed another thing you talk about is studying you have to study a

00:20:09.100 lot on the job studying what do you mean by that and how will that help someone get a promotion

00:20:13.960 yeah definitely knowing your numbers is like point number one so if you're in a sales role let's

00:20:22.420 pretend i'm a supplier selling an iced tea brand i want to make sure that i know all of the numbers

00:20:29.760 of my performance so what are my weekly sales which metro is growing the most which of the retailers

00:20:37.400 am i in have the best performance if i've been selling for a few years how's my performance

00:20:42.980 versus last year what is my distribution what is my price point how is it compared versus competition

00:20:49.420 and these are numbers that you should know if if you're in an elevator with your boss and they're

00:20:55.480 like how's your performance or how's your business you should be able to recite that in 30 seconds a

00:20:59.980 minute without saying oh let me get back to you and if you say that that's like a telltale sign

00:21:06.100 that you don't know your business like you should be an expert on what you sell or what you manage

00:21:11.240 in my work as i mentioned i manage the alcohol business at go puff i need to understand how does

00:21:18.560 beer perform versus wine versus spirits and then every week which of those three is growing faster

00:21:25.180 than the others and then if spirits is growing faster is it coming from vodka or tequila and then if

00:21:30.780 vodka is growing the most then which brands is growing it is it tito's or speca and then you keep

00:21:35.760 going down and then which market and so every company that i've been a part of has had like a weekly

00:21:42.300 performance review where you're usually reporting back to your management or boss about your performance

00:21:48.840 where are your gaps and how you can improve them and it's an it's really important that you understand

00:21:54.940 the business that you work in and so by doing that you need to study you should have depending on the

00:22:01.060 systems that you have we have a tool called looker where we have all these automated reports that we

00:22:06.220 could pull up and i could see all of my weekly sales i could look at syndicated data like iri or nielsen

00:22:12.120 to understand how my business is performing versus competition and i set aside time every week to review

00:22:18.880 those reports to make sure that i'm familiar because i'm constantly getting questions from

00:22:24.800 management on what happened and i want to be able to answer them and i'm also constantly asking my team

00:22:30.780 what happened as they even get more into the weeds you know the beer team is going to even get deeper

00:22:36.380 into beer and they're going to provide me insights as well so that i could then be able to provide

00:22:40.780 management if those questions are asked so it's a huge you know for me number one it's it's like

00:22:48.260 knowing your business but you got to study to know your business and you just got to take the time

00:22:53.320 to do it okay so this could apply if you're in sales if you're a project manager know the numbers

00:22:57.620 what's the status of your project if a boss asks what's going on you don't want to say well i don't

00:23:02.480 know you got to know that stuff so study what's going on inside your company but then also you talk

00:23:06.660 about you mentioned study what's going outside what are trends that are happening in your area of

00:23:12.000 expertise right and how can you utilize that for your division or what you're in charge of

00:23:17.000 a hundred percent it's not even just looking at data but if you know if i use the example of

00:23:23.000 selling an iced tea brand i got to go to whole foods or public's or kroger different grocery stores

00:23:29.320 or convenience stores when i have time just to see what are they doing what different brands are out

00:23:35.700 there i'm going on social media and seeing what people are drinking the syndicated data helps you

00:23:42.640 look at actual data to see which brands are growing faster than the average and so it's really

00:23:48.860 important not just to know your own business but then what are your competitors doing if you have

00:23:54.360 competitors as well because in the end we all want to be the best and so it's important that

00:24:00.380 you understand what they're doing so you can beat them at their own game so the second half of your book

00:24:05.760 you talk about going above and beyond the everyday stuff to get a promotion and one of those ways you can go

00:24:11.580 above and beyond is developing best practices for your company so what do you mean by a best practice

00:24:16.900 yeah a best practice is something that saves you time saves you money or brings in more dollars

00:24:25.520 and it could be anything it could be as simple as combining two excel reports into one it could be

00:24:33.360 more complex as developing working with your it department to develop a new process that your

00:24:39.880 suppliers use that makes things move faster you know one example that i could think of on the team

00:24:46.260 that i manage is a cost collection process that we have with our wholesalers for alcohol where an

00:24:53.440 individual on my team developed like this monthly cost collection process through this jot form

00:24:57.900 where suppliers now could go in monthly and update costs and it comes to us in the same manner every

00:25:04.020 single time versus just telling our wholesalers to give us cost changes when something increases and

00:25:11.280 we have all these different formats and it takes time to put all together and so we condensed the

00:25:17.360 process and and it was a free thing like you don't have to add you don't have to create or put a budget

00:25:24.400 together it was just like something that we put together and now it reduces the time that it takes to

00:25:30.120 accept these costs in half and so a best practice is not always given to you like i expect the team

00:25:37.820 to come up with best practices that will help make their job easier sometimes it's given to you like

00:25:43.800 there could be a project given where we like hey we need to reduce our budget by a million dollars but

00:25:50.700 grow our sales by a million dollars you know how would you do that and then that's like a session but

00:25:55.000 i expect that you're constantly thinking of ways

00:25:59.000 to make your job better easier smarter

00:26:02.280 so that you can work on new things to drive results and i call that a best practice

00:26:07.260 so find problems within your company and solve them do you need to wait around like should you ask for

00:26:12.000 permission to start or should as long as you just like i see this issue i'm just gonna

00:26:15.320 i'm gonna solve it right now and create a best practice for it

00:26:17.920 yeah i think most of the times you don't need permission assuming that it's like a no budget

00:26:22.860 best practice if the practice that you're putting together requires a budget that definitely would

00:26:28.500 need to get your management involved as that has to go through like a budget review process and there

00:26:33.860 needs to be checks and balances as well and checkpoints to ensure that you're working through

00:26:39.700 it and that the money that you received you're actually putting the good use but most of the times

00:26:45.540 and what i appreciate the most if i'm meeting with someone on my team they've already showed me

00:26:52.400 they're like hey i saw this issue here's what i did and here's the result versus even the reverse

00:26:59.120 they're telling me of an issue but they're not giving me a solution how to fix it and so you know

00:27:04.700 the person that was proactive that actually developed it they already met with the team

00:27:09.140 they put it together and here's the results to me that's a person that is desired to move up the ladder

00:27:16.400 uh you also talk about it's important for employees to get better at asking for things in order to get

00:27:22.120 a promotion why is that yeah i think you you need to constantly be open with your boss i i would

00:27:29.780 recommend that you have a weekly touch point with them where you're typically going over

00:27:35.000 projects that you're working on that's usually what you would do in that meeting but then

00:27:40.800 maybe once a month you're talking more about your own individual performance and if there's an issue

00:27:48.420 like what do you need to fix that issue and quite frankly a lot of times it's something that requires

00:27:54.280 more funding maybe it's more it help maybe it's a headcount if you don't ask for those things it's hard

00:28:02.280 for your management to know what you actually need and by asking and saying here's what i need to be

00:28:09.800 successful and yes it might cost money but here's what i need it makes you think okay this person

00:28:16.300 really is trying to improve this process and you need to ask for it like don't just sit there

00:28:22.960 do your job and say oh i can't do that project or initiative because i don't have the resources you need

00:28:31.520 to speak up and ask for it you might not get it every time there's always things going on in the

00:28:36.900 company that is tougher but if you're vocal about it and you explain why you need it the benefit from

00:28:44.880 it the roi from it i would say more than often you'll get the yes to get those resources and you

00:28:51.700 would expect the same when you're in that same position as well from your people under you talk

00:28:57.060 about the role mentors can play in helping secure promotions what does that look like yeah i think

00:29:02.420 mentors are very important and i think less and less companies today have a true mentorship program

00:29:07.940 so it's really on you to find that mentor to help guide you it's definitely not your boss it's either

00:29:17.220 someone that you've looked up to throughout your career or maybe it's someone that's moved to a

00:29:23.780 different company but maybe was your boss at the time i think they will help you especially if the

00:29:30.680 mentors in your own company they could help open doors for you so you could be probably a lot more

00:29:36.380 open with them than your current line manager of like this is what i you know i really wanted to

00:29:43.760 try and join the supply chain or operations team but i'm on sales and it's hard for me to make the shift

00:29:50.280 and maybe that person could help introduce you to people or or find connections for you or

00:29:58.640 introduce you to people outside of different organizations i i just think that they could

00:30:04.040 open up a lot more doors assuming that they value the mentor mentee relationship they've also most

00:30:10.800 likely built very strong relationships with other people and i've had like three or four mentors

00:30:15.580 throughout my career that nothing was like a formal process where i would meet with them monthly it was

00:30:22.600 just like they were a mentor of mine when i needed anything i could call them or text them

00:30:26.840 like hey do you have 15 minutes to talk about this and they would give me advice and i valued that

00:30:34.300 advice and now i'm able to pay it back and i have different mentees you could call it some in my current

00:30:41.420 company but some throughout prior companies that i've worked for that do the same thing they ask me

00:30:46.840 questions they're like hey you know i'm thinking of leaving my current company and here's the jobs i'm

00:30:52.440 looking at or like i i've been in my role for three years i want to get a promotion what do i need to

00:30:57.820 do to move up the ladder and so i think it helps tone your skills whether you're a mentor or a mentee

00:31:05.580 and then helps you in your career as now i manage people i'm giving employer views i'm able to use some

00:31:10.360 of the skills i have of about how i'm mentoring people in the same way okay so you don't want your boss

00:31:17.220 to be your mentor but how do you know or how do you figure out that someone could be a good mentor

00:31:22.780 i mean are there traits or characteristics you're looking for in a potential mentor well i think it's

00:31:27.300 got to be someone that you have a good relationship with that is not someone that maybe you think would

00:31:33.400 be a good mentor but every time you try and talk to them they have no time for you like they need to

00:31:38.240 make the time they need to value the the mentor mentee partnership like who do you connect with maybe

00:31:44.840 you're at a team function out you know traveling and you just connect some with someone maybe you're

00:31:51.640 both runners and you happen to run together in the mornings before meetings when you're traveling

00:31:56.880 it depends like you got to build a connection and i think they should always be a level or two higher

00:32:03.320 than you because you want to you know certainly you're trying to aspire to move up you want to have

00:32:07.760 someone that's got a little bit more experience that also knows more of the leadership because

00:32:14.300 when you're trying to get a new job or you're applying for a new position within your company

00:32:19.820 that mentor could hopefully help you as well by talking to the hiring manager if they know them

00:32:26.240 and putting in a good word for you even though that person might not have like directly worked with

00:32:31.000 you every day you also talk about the importance of being flexible about where you live to increase

00:32:36.320 your chances of getting promotion how can that help you get a promotion

00:32:39.000 yeah it certainly depends on your company if your company only has one office and everyone lives in

00:32:44.920 that one office then usually relocating is not an option but for a company like anheuser-busch that i

00:32:50.920 worked for in the past where we sell anheuser-busch products basically throughout the world you need to be

00:32:59.540 able to move sometimes to move to get promoted i had to move to bentonville arkansas to work with

00:33:06.780 walmart the largest retailer out there i could not have worked with that retailer if i didn't live

00:33:12.100 in arkansas that was a demand by the retailer that their suppliers need to live there and that was

00:33:17.980 probably the best decision i've ever made in my career moving to a town i've never been to but

00:33:23.460 working with this amazing retailer that while stressful at times is the leader and i gained so much

00:33:29.860 experience from it and so you also gain a lot more experiences moving to different towns whether

00:33:36.400 they're small or large you're building more relationships as well with different people

00:33:42.560 yeah it's tough you know i moved a lot more when i was younger i think i've moved seven times now

00:33:48.380 but now i live outside of philadelphia i have you know two kids that are in elementary school and

00:33:53.600 it would be tougher in my career right now to move for a job unless it really meant a significant

00:33:59.700 increase in role monetary value to make it worth it it's not for everyone but the companies that are

00:34:06.240 national or global that have offices throughout the country if you want to gain new experiences

00:34:12.000 one way to do that is to relocate where the office is okay let's say you've been doing all this stuff

00:34:18.940 right you've been making the everyday excellent going above and beyond by establishing best practices

00:34:23.860 getting the mentor things like that at what point do you bring up the idea of a promotion to your boss

00:34:30.040 well it's definitely not after three months in that role and quite frankly that happens all too often

00:34:36.780 the person thinks oh i've been enrolled three months i'm crushing it i'm ready for the next step

00:34:41.740 but uh you have to be strategic so you know every company i've worked for has had an annual

00:34:48.460 annual performance review so certainly during that annual performance review you should be talking

00:34:53.860 about what you need to do to move to the next level but periodically during your one-on-ones with

00:34:59.600 bosses you should also be bringing that up because you don't need to talk about this just once a year

00:35:04.420 but you also don't need to be talking about it once a week so depending on the style of your boss

00:35:11.020 and how you work every one two months you should be like gauging how am i doing am i doing all the

00:35:20.060 right things and then if you've been in enroll two three years and you see no signs that you're going

00:35:27.800 to be promoted you need to be vocal and like what am i doing that is not causing me to move up or what

00:35:35.200 should i be doing to you know to help especially if you see other people moving up that have been

00:35:40.280 in a role less than you so you don't want to be that person that's every week when am i getting

00:35:45.480 promoted when i'm getting promoted because then it gets annoying and then you get turned off but

00:35:50.420 it needs to be an ongoing discussion but excel on your job first you know after three six months is

00:35:59.120 not the time that's too soon okay and also be having these check-ins periodically throughout

00:36:04.280 the year so your boss is aware of what you're doing is there documentation that you should be

00:36:08.840 keeping track of just like on a daily basis so that when you go that performance review you can say

00:36:13.980 well here are the things that i've done i think everyone does it differently what i would advise

00:36:19.820 is um and i and i just did this like a month ago we had our performance review process and

00:36:25.660 you have to write down all of your accomplishments that you had it's very hard to think of everything

00:36:30.820 you did in 2022 and so yes if you want to have your own document that you're constantly updating

00:36:38.440 with a best practice you implemented or a success that you had or something that you think would be

00:36:45.880 valuable for that employer review it would be helpful if you document it or save an email where you

00:36:52.120 have like a very good response from your boss on so that when you do write your employer review

00:36:57.980 you're basically copying pasting the information versus trying to think and most likely you will

00:37:03.640 forget things and so i've never seen it as a formal process it's up to you depending on if you think

00:37:10.380 you can remember or not but i would definitely do that i know you didn't discuss this in the book

00:37:15.560 but i just thought about this let's say you get the promotion and your experience of getting

00:37:19.060 promotions and then overseeing the promotions of employees that you oversaw what are the biggest

00:37:23.680 challenges you have when you first start off in your new position in your new role in that promotion

00:37:28.420 what have you seen one big challenge is like the transition from old job to new job typically when

00:37:37.640 you're in the new job you're still doing work of the old job until they've hired a replacement

00:37:42.740 and then when they've hired the replacement it's your responsibility to usually train that person

00:37:47.880 and start moving your old work to that person because if you never do that then your workload

00:37:54.320 is just going to continue to grow and so you need to do that you need it like again depending on what

00:38:02.260 type of role you're moving into you got to shift and as you move up you got to start delegating so

00:38:08.780 when i give work out to employees especially my senior employees i might give them a project but i'm not

00:38:16.400 expecting them to do a hundred percent of that project i'm expecting them to then work with

00:38:20.740 their team to do the project together and i i do see some people that have delegation issues where

00:38:27.340 they like to take full ownership and not delegate and the people that delegate are the people that

00:38:32.860 have more time to do other things so it's definitely making sure you transition properly your old job

00:38:38.340 to hopefully the new person that got hired and then properly delegating work that you might get

00:38:44.720 have you had any problems with let's say you were in a role and you had colleagues who were on equal

00:38:52.540 footing right in the hierarchy then you get the promotion and now you're overseeing this person

00:38:57.560 that was once your colleague and maybe you're even friends was there any friction there does that

00:39:01.680 dynamic cannot throw you off yeah it's happened many times throughout my career for sure and um

00:39:08.520 you know i would say it's a little awkward in the beginning but once you get past the awkward phase

00:39:14.500 like let it be known that yes we are friends but now this is a manager employee relationship you just

00:39:22.680 got to make it work and if that person can't make it work then they'll find another job or they'll leave

00:39:27.180 the company it doesn't mean that you can't still be friends with that person outside of work and do

00:39:31.980 things but you have to accept the role that now the two people are in and just live with it and i've had

00:39:39.480 a scenario where i used to be a direct report of my boss and then later on i then was the boss of that

00:39:47.180 person and yeah it's awkward for a week or two but you get past it and you get down to business just

00:39:53.500 like it really never existed right you got to be professional keep it professional you got to be

00:39:59.020 professional exactly well randy this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn

00:40:03.520 more about the book in your work yeah well definitely you know my wife hayley and i wrote the book row the

00:40:10.000 essential guide to getting promoted it's on amazon barnesandnoble.com you look at walmart and target.com

00:40:17.100 we have all three formats so paperback ebook and now audio version so depending on how you like to

00:40:25.240 read we have a version for you you know you could find me randy.ornstein at gmail.com or or just

00:40:33.500 linkedin i don't have a personal website but linkedin is usually where i share information you know it's

00:40:39.900 been a long road to write this book but the feedback has been amazing and you know if any of the listeners

00:40:45.800 out there want to learn more i'm happy to talk i've done lunch and learns with suppliers to share

00:40:51.780 more about the book i'll be talking to different universities in the fall especially in the philly

00:40:56.940 area to students that are going to graduate soon so it's a perfect book for those people that are

00:41:03.420 about to enter the workforce it's a book for people that maybe they're stuck in their current job

00:41:08.680 they haven't been promoted and they need an extra edge or it's managers that are trying to get their

00:41:14.100 team stronger and there's a lot of insights in the book that will make you a better employee

00:41:18.780 which in and then will make your company a stronger company fantastic randy ornstein thanks for your

00:41:25.100 time it's been a pleasure oh it's been great brett thank you so much my guest today was randy

00:41:30.320 ornstein he's the co-author of the book grow the essential guide to getting promoted it's available

00:41:34.260 on amazon.com make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is get promoted where you find links

00:41:38.840 to resources where we delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom

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The Art of Manliness - May 29, 2023

The Essential Guide to Getting Promoted

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