The Art of Manliness - The Essential Guide to Visiting and Camping in the National Parks

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.880 america's national parks are one of the country's greatest treasures and many people have it on

00:00:15.500 their bucket list to visit one or more of these gyms but figuring out where to go and how to

00:00:19.860 execute a national park experience can sometimes feel a little overwhelming here to offer some

00:00:24.300 really helpful advice both visiting and camping in the national parks is jeremy puglisi co-author

00:00:29.020 along with his wife stephanie of where should we camp next national parks the best campgrounds and

00:00:34.700 unique outdoor accommodations in and around national parks seashores monuments and more

00:00:39.480 today on the show jeremy walks us through how to navigate the complex reservation system some of

00:00:43.860 the parks have in place and what it takes to secure a campsite inside the parks he then shares his best

00:00:48.920 tips for getting the most out of a national park experience in general as well as when you're

00:00:52.680 visiting some of the country's most iconic destinations including yosemite yellowstone

00:00:57.180 the grand canyon at the end of our conversation jeremy shares the national parks he thinks are

00:01:01.260 underrated and if you want to avoid the crowds of national parks he also shares his picks for the

00:01:05.600 country's best state parks after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is national parks

00:01:10.900 all right jeremy puglisi welcome back to the show oh it's so great to be here and thank you so much

00:01:31.040 for always having authors on your show big big fan of your podcast great to be here well thank you so

00:01:35.720 much so we had you and your wife stephanie on the show a few years ago to talk about how to plan and

00:01:41.100 execute the perfect road trip and the reason i want to bring you back on this time is you have you

00:01:46.240 all have a new book out called where should we camp next national parks so i know a lot of people

00:01:51.680 they're planning summer vacations they're thinking about maybe doing some national parks and these can

00:01:58.300 be surprisingly tricky to navigate and i'm hoping we get some advice from you today but also i want to

00:02:03.600 talk about camping in national parks that's something that a lot of people don't i mean you can do but i

00:02:08.820 think a lot of people just think about visiting national parks so camping inside of a national

00:02:12.840 park adds another dimension maybe complexity to the thing but maybe some high reward there let's talk

00:02:18.880 about you and your wife's experience and your family's experience with camping in national parks

00:02:22.240 you guys are big campers you do a lot of rving how many national parks have you all camped in

00:02:27.240 so between the two of us we've done about half of the 63 national parks and then we've done a lot

00:02:34.620 of the other national park sites which are not necessarily national parks and it's been about

00:02:39.340 a decade of doing long rv trips with our kids and every summer we definitely hit up a few of our

00:02:45.000 national parks i would love to get to all of them i don't know if that'll happen but we're working

00:02:48.700 hard to do so what's been your favorite national park you've visited so far so my favorite and this

00:02:54.320 surprises people my favorite's olympic national park in washington state and i think that's because

00:03:00.000 it has so many different ecosystems you've got the mountains you've got the ocean you've got

00:03:04.780 rainforests you've got some really hip cool gateway towns and it's pretty close to seattle so you kind

00:03:09.960 of can fit in a city trip if you want to as well so that's always been my favorite i think stephanie

00:03:15.320 would say glacier national park was her favorite so you're still trying to hit national parks every time

00:03:19.960 you'd go out traveling in the summer yeah and this is you know one of our biggest tips is we often do

00:03:25.720 a big national park trip at the very end of august that's the time we've been really zooming in on

00:03:31.720 because our kids are still off school here in the northeast they go back after labor day and so what

00:03:37.000 we've discovered is most of the country is back to school at that point so we have hit some of the

00:03:42.440 major national parks at the very end of the summer and not had the crowding issues that everybody's been

00:03:48.360 talking about so you mentioned there's 63 official national parks but you mentioned that there's

00:03:53.700 other sites or land governed by the national park service what other sites should people consider

00:03:59.180 when they think national park service yeah so there's 63 national parks but there's 424 national

00:04:05.700 park sites and there's all different kinds of designations you've got national seashores like

00:04:11.840 cape hatteras national seashore cape cod national seashore you've got national lake shores like sleeping

00:04:16.960 bear dunes in michigan you've got national recreation areas we have in new jersey we have gateway national

00:04:22.200 recreation area you've got national memorials national parkways and the thing that we really

00:04:27.040 wanted to get across in the book is that a lot of them have amazing camping experiences sometimes there's

00:04:33.620 sites inside those parks but sometimes you have to camp outside of the parks but we wanted to sort of

00:04:38.600 redistribute the balance of how people look at national park camping trips because we all think of the

00:04:43.080 iconic trips out west and there are just there are more national parks in the west but in the east we

00:04:50.080 have a lot of those other designations we have a lot of the recreation areas the seashores the lake

00:04:55.180 shores the monuments and those offer great camping experiences too and we really wanted the book to

00:05:00.600 give people alternatives from the places that are so so crowded some of which i think we'll talk about

00:05:05.000 today the other interesting thing i didn't think about but it made sense like the civil war sites

00:05:09.500 that's national park service 100 and like so gettysburg there's no campgrounds in gettysburg

00:05:16.080 national battlefield but there's a whole culture of camping right outside of gettysburg there's also a

00:05:22.160 lot of campgrounds outside of fredericksburg almost all of those major sites have camping right outside

00:05:27.920 of them and people love to go on camping trips and make a whole tour out of it so yeah the big takeaway

00:05:32.520 there don't limit yourself just to the national parks national parks are great we're going to talk

00:05:36.140 about some of them today but also think outside the box think of the other lands or sites governed

00:05:41.640 by the national park service let's talk about just visiting national parks in general maybe someone's

00:05:46.680 just planning on going there they're not they don't want to camp but they want to visit a national park

00:05:50.280 i'm sure people have heard or if they've tried in the past five years to visit a national park

00:05:55.720 they've heard or experienced that getting into a national park can be surprisingly difficult

00:06:02.500 why is getting into a national park so hard sometimes so my theory here is that during the

00:06:09.140 pandemic interest in national parks interests in camping exploded for obvious reasons but then

00:06:15.240 everybody that had been taking other types of vacations like cruises or flying to europe i think a lot of

00:06:21.600 them just wanted to go to the same five or six places that they'd been hearing about their whole

00:06:25.640 lives they'd been hearing about yellowstone they've been hearing about yosemite they've been hearing about

00:06:29.320 a little place called zion and so i think that we had an absolute flood of people that were new to

00:06:35.500 camping and maybe even kind of new to road tripping all trying to descend on the same places at one time

00:06:41.440 so it is true that there are crowding issues at the most popular national parks at the most popular times

00:06:49.580 but shoulder seasons are pretty open and there's also so many great national parks that are off

00:06:55.600 people's radars now i would never tell someone don't go to yellowstone don't go to yosemite

00:07:00.140 that's your travel dream go do that and we've gone to those places too we just wanted to open up some

00:07:06.720 other options as well and you know some of the places that we want to talk about i think like yosemite

00:07:12.920 you know it's near san francisco right so that's going to be crowded there's massive population density

00:07:18.780 nearby great smoky mountains national park is you know within striking distance of massive

00:07:23.960 population density so a lot of people go to great smoky mountains national park it's our most visited

00:07:28.400 park but then there are places that are a bit more off the beaten track that people cannot get to quite

00:07:33.500 as easily uh and there's there's campsites open there really are okay so some national parks they're

00:07:38.960 very popular different times of the year they're gonna be more popular i imagine summer like early

00:07:44.800 summer is probably the peak time for most of them that sweet spot where all of the kids in the

00:07:49.700 country are off for school is the worst time it's the hardest time the most difficult time to go because

00:07:56.440 you have kids in the country that go back to school after labor day then you have kids in the country that

00:08:00.880 get off earlier in may so that place in the middle where like every kid in america is off that is

00:08:06.180 definitely honestly a very tricky time to do these types of trips so if you can anyway move off to the

00:08:12.500 beginning or end of the summer as opposed to say july you're going to do better and then of course if

00:08:18.380 you're not traveling with kids and that's not an issue for you the shoulder seasons are a really

00:08:22.480 wonderful time to visit almost all of these places that we want to talk about okay so i think something

00:08:27.840 people often don't realize with the national parks is that sometimes you need a reservation

00:08:33.040 ahead of time just to get into the park or to do certain things in the park and we had a nightmare

00:08:38.860 experience with this during the pandemic so 2021 my wife was turning 40 and she wanted to go to

00:08:46.040 yosemite for her 40th so i thought okay great i'll go to recreation.gov buy the tickets but at the time

00:08:52.900 they were expecting you to reserve your spot into the park three days in advance of your arrival at the

00:09:01.060 park so a couple weeks before the date i needed to buy my permit i got on there to get familiar with

00:09:08.600 recreation.gov and see how fast things went and just to practice buying the permit because i heard

00:09:15.340 that things go can go fast and so i got on there and tickets went fast like in three minutes they

00:09:21.860 were all gone but every time i was able to put a permit in my shopping cart and delete it so i thought

00:09:27.840 okay i'm not gonna have a problem with this so on the day of like this is the day that it counted i had

00:09:32.920 to get one a permit on this day because we'd be at yosemite in three days i had to get it we had

00:09:39.480 already bought lodging we already bought plane tickets so this was now or never so i had my

00:09:44.020 friend grant him and his wife marion were going to come with this as well i said hey you get on too

00:09:48.620 and you just start refreshing your browser and see if you get one we'll increase the chances

00:09:53.180 so we started doing it got on 10 o'clock central time in the morning ticked started refreshing the

00:09:59.980 browser trying to get one trying to get one trying to get one and none of us got one they were gone

00:10:04.680 in a minute and i remember i was like oh my gosh i just ruined kate's 40th birthday this is

00:10:09.760 devastating luckily my friend grant he was clutch he got on reddit right after that happened

00:10:16.200 and started searching about you know getting permits or whatever and he found that if you get the app

00:10:21.600 sometimes they reserve a few permits for the recreation.gov app so he downloaded the app really quick

00:10:27.840 and he was able to get a permit for us to get in so yeah he saved the day so that's one tip there

00:10:33.260 if you're trying to get into a hard to get into park or an attraction at a park don't just use the

00:10:39.340 browser get the app as well and what was interesting i was like why is it this is like an off season we

00:10:44.720 went in february it's like this is an off season why was it so crazy to get in at this time and what

00:10:49.640 was going on as in yosemite around february 20th there's this phenomenon it's the firefalls there's

00:10:56.940 like a waterfall and at sunset the sun hits this waterfall and it looks like fire is going down

00:11:03.760 the wall of the mountain and so there's photographers from all over the world who are

00:11:07.900 trying to get in to get a picture of this if you look it up you can see pictures of this online

00:11:12.580 or videos of it get there and except for people around the waterfall the park was empty we had

00:11:19.160 basically had the park to ourselves we went on these great hikes didn't see anybody on the trails

00:11:23.140 at all so i mean that was another thing that i thought was interesting even though a park might

00:11:27.500 be busy or hard to get into it you might have it to yourself because people are there for a certain

00:11:31.940 attraction and another thing too is what we saw when we got to yosemite was some people didn't know

00:11:38.240 about the reservations that you needed in advance you'd see these people in line i'm sure they drove

00:11:42.660 hours to get to yosemite they get to the gate and they didn't have the permit and so they just had

00:11:48.000 to turn around and go back so lessons there check in advance with the park you plan on visiting like

00:11:54.000 months in advance if they have a reservation system be prepared to for some parks or some

00:11:58.640 attractions to have to you know really be ready and try to refresh the browser to get a permit use

00:12:05.580 the app and yeah that was the thing just do a lot of research in advance but i'm curious i mean so

00:12:10.340 that was the pandemic a lot of people were going to the national parks during this time so i think a lot

00:12:15.620 of parks put in this permit system is that still the case do a lot of parks still have this you need

00:12:20.600 a reservation in advance just to get into the park well it's only a handful but actually i'm guessing

00:12:25.780 that a lot of those people that got turned away that day were not yosemite rookies i'm actually

00:12:31.260 thinking a lot of them are probably people that have been going to yosemite for years and never needed

00:12:35.200 that reservation because this whole thing made a lot of news during the pandemic because it had never

00:12:40.520 happened before the national park service has always required reservations for campsites

00:12:45.420 but you know for all of its history you could just drive up and you know get into the park

00:12:50.440 and so since the pandemic though they have been targeting really specific parks and some really

00:12:56.460 specific uh attractions or things like firefall this year there's only five parks that require

00:13:02.900 like a reservation to get into the park and again we're not talking campsites here we're just

00:13:07.280 talking getting in so actually yosemite doesn't require a reservation to get in this year though they

00:13:13.560 do require reservations for firefall as you described but this year acadia requires a reservation to get

00:13:20.300 in but that's not the whole park that's like the park loop road arches requires a reservation glacier

00:13:26.840 requires a reservation but it's only for going to the sun road and you need to remember these national

00:13:32.060 parks are gigantic so sometimes they're just pinpointing the busiest part of the park and saying

00:13:37.960 you need a reservation to get in and in glacier from what i understand it's only from 9 a.m to 3 p.m

00:13:43.960 that you need that reservation for going to the sun road you can be in other parts of the park and not

00:13:48.160 need a reservation at all rocky mountain national park you need reservations for specific things

00:13:53.900 and then haleakala in hawaii you just need a reservation if you want to come in super early and do the

00:14:00.860 sunrise which is very popular so what the nps is doing is they're just targeting things they know

00:14:06.480 they get overcrowded and i think they're almost keeping people from getting disappointed by like

00:14:11.740 showing up and not being able to park or not being able to to get in so it's very limited for the most

00:14:16.980 part every national park service site you can pull up and pay the price to get in and not have a problem

00:14:22.820 yeah i know at zion they instituted you don't need a reservation to get into zion but to do this hike

00:14:28.820 called angel landing you need a permit or a reservation in advance to do that and i will admit i i will

00:14:34.920 i will never do that hike and i think you did didn't you yeah i did and it we took our son went

00:14:41.460 up it and he was like 11 or 10 at the time i think it was like 10 or 9 it was crazy because it's just

00:14:46.280 like a chain and you're just going up the sheer cliff the view was great but it was pretty crazy

00:14:51.440 going up there and it was definitely crowded too you just kind of had to keep inching up this long

00:14:55.840 line of people i don't blame the nps for limiting the number of people doing that hike though because

00:15:00.700 it's dangerous so there's been a lot of grumbling about the national park service implementing some

00:15:05.640 of these reservations but they tend to know what they're doing and i think like that one definitely

00:15:10.260 makes sense and like acadia national park the park loop road if you let too many people in then you

00:15:15.780 can't park anywhere so you literally could just drive around it but it would be impossible to stop

00:15:20.380 and check out any overlooks so for the most part i you know 99 trust the nps to make good decisions

00:15:26.480 about this stuff so i guess the takeaway there if there's a national park you're going to visit i

00:15:30.640 would get on recreation.gov to check out the different reservation policies if you need one

00:15:34.960 in advance etc i would do two things i would go to nps.gov like go to the actual national park service

00:15:41.400 website and then click through to recreation.gov because what i've discovered over the years

00:15:46.440 is sometimes there's more and better information on the national park service website and then

00:15:51.600 recreation.gov is just where you go to make the reservation and sometimes the information can be

00:15:55.660 different but if you look at both of them together you're going to get the whole picture of whatever's

00:16:00.040 going on with the reservation system. Okay so always do your research beforehand as to whether

00:16:04.940 you need a reservation to get into the park or to do a certain hike in the park and then also be aware

00:16:11.500 that those passes they can be hard to get sometimes and that can be especially true when it comes to

00:16:18.440 getting a reservation for a camping site what does it take to get a campsite inside a national park?

00:16:23.680 So like for yosemite it is literally and we could talk about a few different parks here

00:16:28.140 but for somewhere like yosemite it becomes incredibly incredibly stressful there's like 13

00:16:34.540 campgrounds inside the park some of them you can reserve five months early some you can reserve two

00:16:40.640 months early some you can reserve two weeks early so you got to figure all of that out and again

00:16:46.060 nps.gov and then go to yosemite they lay out everything for you they have 20 pages worth of information

00:16:51.900 on the reservation system like you need a phd to book a reservation here and then they basically

00:16:57.720 tell you they give you a chart of when you need to get on your laptop and at what time so basically

00:17:04.960 you need to be on your laptop at 7 a.m pacific time on the day that the campsites are going to be released

00:17:12.340 and then on the national park website it actually says that thousands and thousands of campsites

00:17:18.820 disappear in seconds and the issues become so stressful that there's been a lot of complaint

00:17:26.180 from the public about it the public is saying you know it's not equitable not everybody has access to

00:17:31.640 high-speed internet and some people are gaming the system they've actually had problems with hackers and

00:17:38.300 bots invading the system and getting campsites at yosemite and this is a this is a real thing i actually

00:17:44.840 had somebody direct message me on facebook and say hey if you want to get into yosemite or yellowstone

00:17:51.400 this summer i've got a hacker for you i've got somebody it's a little expensive but i can get you

00:17:55.920 the campsite so the national park has service has kind of become aware of how stressful and awful this

00:18:02.680 is particularly at like you know yosemite zion etc etc so now they're experimenting with a lottery system

00:18:10.020 at yosemite which could spread to other campgrounds across the country so basically you know you put in

00:18:16.520 the dates you want or you put in when you want to go and they sort of pull your name out of a digital

00:18:21.000 hat and then you get early access to the reservation system and i kid you not there are seven pages of

00:18:28.600 instructions just to show you how to get the early access through the lottery system but i do kind of

00:18:35.480 hope that that kind of lottery system becomes more widespread because i do think it's it's even harder

00:18:41.020 for people to get reservations if they're not really kind of sophisticated with their laptops as

00:18:45.100 silly as that sounds okay so getting a campground it's going to vary depending on the national park

00:18:51.460 yosemite doesn't have very many campsites so there's an elaborate reservation system and really

00:18:56.780 i mean you just have to take the time to to walk through the instructions and then basically be at

00:19:01.900 your computer at a certain point and just ready to hit refresh over and over again until you get a

00:19:07.480 spot correct no you need to be on your laptop your wife needs to be on your laptop your three kids need

00:19:12.480 to be on their chromebooks that's what people do they get the whole family literally trying to do it

00:19:17.520 and yes you're hitting refresh and i have tried this and i have had my heart broken many times and

00:19:21.960 you know the sites disappear quickly and then a couple times i've been able to get them at some super

00:19:26.200 popular places but that is definitely an issue you know i mean there's people that feel like they're not

00:19:31.200 going to ever build a camp inside yosemite during their lifetime you know okay so get a campsite you

00:19:36.020 have to look at each national park it's going to be different on how far in advance you have to get

00:19:40.260 a spot could be six months could be five months could be two months could be two weeks and i also

00:19:45.000 imagine there are some national parks where you could probably just go to the place and like there's

00:19:51.140 probably a campsite there because it's not as popular for example are there any national parks like that

00:19:54.940 yeah i mean i think you could go to somewhere like big bend in texas you know i think there are

00:19:59.860 definitely some parks that are like you could walk shenandoah national park is in virginia that's kind

00:20:04.220 of closer to me i would be willing to bet money i could book a site there this weekend right now

00:20:08.920 so there's definitely some places that fly under the radar and there's sites available almost at any

00:20:13.420 time but summer weekends almost anywhere are going to be booked inside the parks and to kind of

00:20:19.420 emphasize a little bit why that is it's dirt cheap to camp inside the national parks it's often

00:20:24.460 10 20 maybe 30 a night and those campgrounds are in the most beautiful spectacular locations right

00:20:32.080 inside the parks and then also you don't have to worry about getting into the park in the morning

00:20:36.660 as you were describing because you've already gone through that process you're already in there

00:20:40.240 you're waking up in the park and then able to either take a shuttle or just go on a hike right from

00:20:46.120 your your campsite but there's places that are definitely less crowded for sure if you dig around and

00:20:51.060 our book has a ton of them okay so camping inside a national park can be stressful are there any other

00:20:57.600 campsites that people should consider that are outside of a national park that can give you easy

00:21:02.500 access to the national park but avoiding the stress and headaches of camping inside the national park

00:21:07.160 yeah so it does become much easier to move outside of the park and look outside of the park

00:21:12.400 those types of campgrounds do not book up as quickly they're often two to three times to four times

00:21:18.740 more expensive right so that's one of the dynamics at work here is that a site inside of yellowstone

00:21:24.440 might be 20 bucks a site outside of yellowstone could very easily be 100 bucks a night because

00:21:30.140 it's a small business owner trying to make a profit and many of those campgrounds outside the parks are

00:21:35.240 beautiful but they're not going to be as beautiful as being in the park so there's major trade-offs

00:21:40.900 but if you wanted to do like a last second national park strip right now after listening to this

00:21:45.680 podcast you're most likely going to end up looking outside the parks a good place to start which i

00:21:51.680 often recommend is koa that's campgrounds of america they have 500 campgrounds it's a franchisee system

00:21:57.960 and they tend to have a strong presence outside of most national parks like for instance great smoky

00:22:04.060 mountains national park there's going to be like eight koas around the perimeter of great smoky mountains

00:22:09.180 but it also depends on gateway towns so somewhere like yosemite does not have an immediate gateway

00:22:15.980 town you're going to drive an hour away to find other camping options now somewhere like great

00:22:21.360 smoky mountains national park there are camping options literally right outside the gates of the

00:22:25.300 park so it's going to vary a bit but it's always going to cost more and it's always probably going

00:22:30.500 to be easier to get sites are state parks a good option for camping outside of national park

00:22:35.080 because i imagine there's a lot of state parks close by to some of these national parks state

00:22:39.220 parks can be definitely for sure like i think of custer state park in south dakota is a great place to

00:22:44.840 stay if you want to go to mount rushmore also national forests are a really great place to look where

00:22:51.220 there's more sites available so particularly thinking about like yellowstone and grand teton

00:22:56.100 they're surrounded by national forest campgrounds and those are often first come first served which

00:23:04.080 makes it a bit tricky if you're coming from far away and there's often maybe like a dirt road to

00:23:08.700 get in it's a little more rugged there's not a lot of services but a lot of people do end up in

00:23:13.480 national forest campgrounds sometimes state parks it's unusual to have a national park and a state

00:23:19.060 park like right next to each other though it does happen indiana dunes which is now a national park

00:23:24.640 also has indiana dunes state park literally right next door and then one of our favorites

00:23:30.180 ascetic islands state park literally right next door is ascetic islands national seashore so you

00:23:36.880 could you know play that game there if you can't get into the national park try the state park but

00:23:40.440 that's going to be a little bit the exception to the rule i think well another option to consider

00:23:44.920 is disperse camping so disperse camping is you can do it on certain national lands and basically

00:23:51.680 you drive out there and you can camp pretty much wherever you want wherever you can find a spot

00:23:57.440 there are a few regulations about where you can camp but generally you know it's wherever and you

00:24:04.280 but the thing is you got nothing like there's no water there's no restrooms you're digging a cat hole

00:24:09.840 but it's a good way to avoid the crowds and it's free so what about disperse camping uh where is that

00:24:17.060 an option yeah so you can do disperse camping on blm land which is only in about 13 states in the

00:24:23.920 american west though like i'm a new jersey guy i'm jealous we don't have that also you can do

00:24:28.760 dispersed camping in national forests and like if you go to the national forest service website they

00:24:33.700 have rules for how you know close or far you can be from the road if you need a permit if you don't

00:24:39.060 in those situations if you're going to try you know what i often call boondocking what you just

00:24:43.820 called dispersed camping you can often call a field office whether it's blm or national forest

00:24:50.480 where there's a ranger there's jurisdiction over the land and it's very wise to check in because

00:24:58.020 you know mother nature is at work and sometimes things are flooding or sometimes trees are down

00:25:02.040 and roads are cut off so there is often a point of contact that you can make literally by picking up

00:25:07.600 a phone and calling somebody to say hey look i want to do dispersed camping in this national forest

00:25:13.580 is there anything i need to know is anything closed etc etc it's getting much bigger in the american west

00:25:19.480 not so much a thing in the american east and one of the reasons it's getting bigger among rv owners

00:25:25.720 is because rvs are becoming much more equipped with solar to be able to be out in the middle of nowhere

00:25:31.120 without electrical hookups we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors 0.96

00:25:35.320 and now back to the show what general tips do you have for people for just visiting a national park

00:25:45.420 you know whether they're camping in it or just visiting for a few days any tips that you found

00:25:50.300 that are useful to get the most out of the national park experience the single most important thing

00:25:55.920 that we tell everybody is to get up early even if your family does not naturally get up early

00:26:01.020 if you want to hike a popular trail or go to a popular overlook parking lots fill up and it's it's

00:26:07.520 amazing parking lots tend to fill up by like 10 o'clock if you can get to a popular trailhead at 7 a.m

00:26:14.360 you're golden in almost every case so we'll go to a trailhead at 7 a.m do a hike like gorham mountain

00:26:20.320 trail in acadia when we come down the mountain at 10 the parking lot's full and people are circling

00:26:25.360 so getting up early even if that's not your natural thing is is hugely important we also tell people

00:26:32.160 to kind of take it slow and don't feel like you have to cram in everything we would rather take

00:26:38.820 our time and linger in certain places than say we checked off all 12 things that we wanted to do at

00:26:44.200 yellowstone my theory is always you know i can come back if i want to and then we also recommend

00:26:49.140 too if you do a big activity in the morning you know we always hike in the morning with our kids

00:26:54.380 which they'll grumble about to be honest then we tend to in the afternoon kind of let them pick

00:27:00.700 and that often means going back to a campground pool maybe going into a town and getting some

00:27:06.000 food or something like that or buying souvenirs so creating a balance between what mom and dad want

00:27:11.700 and what the kids want has been hugely important too and you also highly recommend like visiting the

00:27:17.340 office where the rangers are at because they have lots of useful information they also for the kids

00:27:21.860 i thought it was cool i didn't know about this the junior range it's like the junior rangers is that

00:27:25.140 what it's called yeah the junior ranger program so if you go to the visitor center

00:27:29.620 and you ask for the junior ranger booklet and it'll be like an activity booklet that kids fill

00:27:35.200 out through their day or through a couple of days at the park and it's you know it's answering some

00:27:40.120 questions or it's maybe doing a nature trail it varies in difficulty from park to park and then

00:27:45.840 when you complete the booklet you bring it back to the visitor center and they will swear you in

00:27:51.140 as a junior ranger they'll actually do a little ceremony which is like quite adorable when the kids

00:27:55.080 are little and then they give them a junior ranger badge so that program was a huge part of my kids

00:28:00.840 national park experience when they were little yeah i imagine it keeps your kids from having a

00:28:05.440 meltdown right they keep them from complaining or having a bad attitude because it gives them

00:28:09.520 something to do a hundred percent and and look if you want to do a national parks trip as a mom or a

00:28:14.600 dad and you are worried about the kid part of it because you can burn your kids out on another hike

00:28:19.240 you know another hike another hike another overlook then camping outside the park can be a really

00:28:25.080 to go because then the campground experience can be really fun for them with pools playgrounds bocce

00:28:30.440 ball volleyball whatever it might be that's always helped us strike a balance and also if you have

00:28:36.180 kids don't forget if you have a fourth grader they get to go to the national parks for free they got

00:28:40.300 a free pass to all the national parks that year we took advantage of that during the pandemic my son

00:28:45.040 was in fourth grade at the time we had the pass and so we hit up a lot of national parks during that time

00:28:49.440 yeah that's another great program the national park service has for sure and in just in general

00:28:53.860 though like the admissions cheap the camping's cheap you know it's all supplemented by our tax

00:28:59.500 dollars etc etc but it is a national parks trip can be a very affordable family vacation all right so

00:29:07.540 let's talk about like specific national parks we've talked about some general tips about how to navigate

00:29:13.580 the reservation system how to figure out if you're gonna camp inside the park outside the park you know

00:29:18.800 how to get the most out of your park experience let's talk about specific parks because you do a great

00:29:22.500 job in the book you basically talk about every single national park and the ins and outs where

00:29:26.800 to camp uh attractions to check out things you need to consider when you're planning so let's talk

00:29:32.060 about some of the really popular national parks let's talk about yosemite we've already been talking

00:29:37.820 about yosemite and you know when we went i was before we went i was wondering i you know is this thing

00:29:44.100 going to live up to the hype because you hear about it your entire life so i was afraid it's going to be

00:29:48.380 overhyped but it was so incredible it exceeded expectations it lived up to the hype and more

00:29:53.380 but because it's so incredible it's very popular it's one of the most popular parks in the country

00:29:58.880 so are there any problems with overcrowding at yosemite yeah i mean yosemite is the sixth most

00:30:04.500 visited national park to put it into context more people visit yosemite than yellowstone and yellowstone's

00:30:10.960 three times the size and yosemite is day trippable you know from san fran and most people just are

00:30:17.640 going to do the valley part you know and that's common in most national parks that most people are

00:30:23.660 going to one spot like in acadia everybody wants to do park loop road in yosemite everybody wants to

00:30:29.620 do the valley stuff so if you are willing to go off the beaten track um there's often many other

00:30:35.780 options than the ones that people you know the people are just kind of driving in parking looking

00:30:39.980 around they don't know exactly what they want to do you know maybe they stumble into a little bit

00:30:43.980 of a hike so yeah you said look yosemite i wish i had some you know secret answer to doing yosemite

00:30:50.020 in the summer but it is a challenge but we've had people that have gone in the shoulder seasons that

00:30:54.720 have really been raving about you know visiting in the in the non-summer yeah like i mentioned earlier

00:30:59.960 when we went in february we hardly saw anyone else on the trails we had a hike on the snow it's there

00:31:07.000 was still snow on the ground and we did that that was fine it was fun actually and you know there was

00:31:12.080 a ton of people there for for the firefall at the firefall spot but other than that like there was

00:31:18.320 actually a lot of solitude so i wouldn't go again during the firefall time but it seems like winter in

00:31:24.980 general is a great time to hit yosemite what you're saying about the hiking is incredibly true i mean most

00:31:31.520 people are touring in our national parks right they're they're driving in they're parking they

00:31:36.700 don't really quite know what to do they're looking around a little bit every national park we've been

00:31:41.320 to from yellowstone to glacier to acadia very very crowded parks once you get out on the trail and not

00:31:47.380 i'm not even talking deep back country i mean once you just get out on the trail it tends to not be

00:31:52.780 super super crowded have you guys camped in yosemite it's been a long time but yes so is yosemite one

00:31:59.600 i would imagine you would recommend you know finding a spot outside because it's probably just

00:32:03.180 too stressful to get a spot inside the park in the book we have a couple recommendations but they are

00:32:08.360 45 minutes to an hour outside of the park and for most people that's a bummer there is a really cool

00:32:13.040 place called auto camp yosemite and that's a campground that's only airstream rentals and it's

00:32:19.700 expensive it's kind of bougie but that's a really cool option outside of yosemite and then there's some

00:32:25.040 some rv resorts that are an hour away that are fine but it frankly doesn't compare to being

00:32:29.380 in the park now glacier somewhere like glacier there are awesome beautiful campgrounds outside

00:32:35.560 of the park so it's going to vary from park to park okay so yosemite i i recommend yosemite if

00:32:40.940 you're going to visit it's it's fantastic another iconic summer national park destination is the

00:32:46.520 grand canyon anything people should consider when planning a road trip or a camping trip to the

00:32:51.820 grand canyon so there's some similarities with yosemite right so the gateway town of williams is over

00:32:57.860 an hour away right so sort of you're in the park or you're far away the reservation system's a little

00:33:04.120 bit simpler so you can reserve six months in advance there and on the south rim the more popular

00:33:10.040 rim there are campgrounds that are open year around and there's a few campgrounds that are just in the

00:33:15.040 summer now on the north rim it's seasonal camping there's no camping in the winter so you could do off

00:33:21.420 season grand canyon and in fact a lot of people say it's really really beautiful to go i mean

00:33:25.740 you run the risk of having bad weather but there's campgrounds open year around you might

00:33:30.860 consider the shoulder seasons there and williams is really cool as a gateway town so i would certainly

00:33:35.480 recommend like stopping there spending a couple nights there and then going into the grand canyon

00:33:39.580 okay so camping six months advanced reservation mostly i would definitely get on six months if you

00:33:45.280 want that reservation for sure because the campgrounds will book in the summer uh shoulder seasons are going

00:33:50.700 to be a bit more friendly grand canyon too like i for me like you want to be there for a sunrise and

00:33:56.800 a sunset but i feel like the average person can go for just a couple nights and really experience the

00:34:02.700 grand canyon unless you want to get super adventurous and do some serious hiking you don't need a week at

00:34:07.920 the grand canyon i don't think personally no we went to the grand canyon when i was a kid i think we

00:34:12.620 just did a day i mean we were just kind of driving through we stopped probably could have done a

00:34:16.620 little bit longer we also talked about inside the grand canyon national park there are different types

00:34:21.140 of attractions that besides the camping are going to require advanced reservation what are some

00:34:26.680 examples of that like if you want to do a floating trip or something like that you're going to need

00:34:31.260 to hook up with a concessionaire and you're definitely going to need tickets for something like that

00:34:35.480 but all the hiking is as far as i know right now there's no reservations for things like that but

00:34:40.300 if you're going to be doing something with a concessionaire or like a deeper hike into the canyon

00:34:44.480 and staying overnight that's all something you're going to definitely be booking in advance

00:34:49.000 all right let's talk about the most popular national park that's great smoky mountains correct

00:34:53.200 yeah so great smoky mountains is the most visited national park i think they topped oh they almost

00:35:00.300 hit 14 million visitors last year and i think that's like twice the amount of visitors that other

00:35:07.260 national parks get and just it's just a population density issue right i mean great i could hop in my car

00:35:13.520 right now from the new jersey i could be to great smoky mountains in 10 10 hours so people all up and

00:35:18.980 down the east coast can get to the smokies within a day's drive um so yeah it's super super popular

00:35:25.840 it up to very recently was completely free to enter the park which is maybe one of the reasons it gets

00:35:31.620 very crowded but great smokies to me is very accessible and much less stressful than some of these other

00:35:39.580 places we've been talking about for sure what's the camping like inside great smoky lots of great

00:35:45.600 camping and when you think of great smoky mountains national park you have the tennessee side and you

00:35:50.540 have the north carolina side so you can approach the park from two different states which is another

00:35:55.900 reason why it's so crowded but there are tons of great mps campgrounds in and around the park there's

00:36:01.760 probably about 15 of them there's places like smokemont and elkmont that are super popular harder to get

00:36:07.920 but much easier than the other places we talked about and then the great smoky mountains national

00:36:13.060 park there's several gateway towns where we were saying you know yosemite doesn't really have an

00:36:18.580 immediate gateway town grand canyon doesn't have a gateway town great smoky mountains national park

00:36:22.800 has cherokee on the north carolina side it has gatlinburg and pigeon forge on the tennessee side which

00:36:28.740 is almost like a little mini las vegas right outside of the gates of the park then also townsend

00:36:34.080 so there's a massive um there's probably a hundred campgrounds outside of the park so you don't hear

00:36:41.280 about the stressful stories if you can't get a site inside the park you just move to one of the koas

00:36:45.820 outside of the park the last time we went to the smokies we stayed at camp margaritaville we stayed at

00:36:50.440 a jimmy buffett property 10 minutes from the gates and you know my wife's drinking margaritas at night 1.00

00:36:56.320 there's a pool there's a hot tub it's a very different type of national park strip than the ones out last

00:37:02.140 we've talked about it also got it's got dollywood too dollywood is awesome is it i mean is it really

00:37:10.140 that great i i've got some family members who go there all the time and i'm like why would you go

00:37:14.440 to dolly world over and over again i'll tell you why i'll make the case for dollywood lots of live

00:37:19.220 music so that the ticket you know you pay your ticket price which is not cheap i mean it's less

00:37:23.820 than disney world but certainly not cheap to go to dollywood but there's live music all day you could

00:37:27.840 literally not go on a ride and just go from concert to concert to concert and these are good people

00:37:33.200 okay there's a good high level talent but then also dollywood has world-class roller coasters

00:37:39.880 like i like roller coasters i won't go on super frightening upside down roller coasters but they

00:37:45.200 have those too so you know if you want music and you want entertainment you want food all that's there

00:37:50.060 but if you also want the thrills of the roller coasters that's there too now for the national park

00:37:54.760 purist to somebody who's into hiking and all that stuff you know you might want to avoid dollywood

00:37:59.040 but we've gone twice and we really really liked it all right so great smoky mountain sounds like

00:38:03.080 camping inside the park it's not as stressful as the ones out west and there's also great camping

00:38:08.120 outside as well and a lot of other stuff to do outside the national park and just from like reading

00:38:12.540 about it i've never been but it sounds like a lot of great hiking as well there is beautiful we did a

00:38:18.500 hike this past year where you can actually hike up to a national park lodge and spend the night the

00:38:23.620 laconte lodge and the only way you can get there is by hiking but there's beautiful hiking there and

00:38:28.240 in the great smokies it's like rushing rivers you know really deep thickly green forests and then you

00:38:34.220 kind of emerge at the end to a view of the mountain so it is it is a very good hiking park all right

00:38:38.940 so yellowstone is another popular national park but it's also huge so any tips on getting the most out

00:38:44.840 of your yellowstone visit yeah yellowstone was definitely one of our favorite trips you need to

00:38:50.940 decide where your base camp is for yellowstone because you can enter the park from so many

00:38:54.780 different places and we decided to use west yellowstone as our base camp which is actually

00:39:00.500 in montana but yellowstone is a driving park to me more than it is like a hiking park it's a touring

00:39:06.440 park where a big part of the experience is going to be hopping in your car driving from place to place

00:39:12.140 to place so planning for those drives and not being shocked you know that you have to do a lot of

00:39:17.580 driving is a big part of the experience we actually love the driving but we learned to bring snacks into

00:39:22.740 the park bring water into the park you often end up pretty far away from concessions and we did

00:39:28.580 yellowstone like i mentioned earlier in the last week of august and i could have landed a plane in the

00:39:35.420 old faithful parking lot it was so empty so the i mean i know yellowstone is definitely crowded in june and

00:39:41.340 july but end of august would be a really good time to do yellowstone and if it's your first time a big

00:39:48.460 tip would be to concentrate on the lower loop now there's awesome things in the upper loop but the

00:39:55.120 lower loop has so many of the iconic places we think about like old faithful like grand prismatic

00:40:00.760 springs and then if you have more time you could do the lower loop and say two days three days

00:40:06.260 then if you have a longer trip to yellowstone then head into the upper loop do grand canyon of

00:40:11.740 the yellowstone and then lamar valley is quite far away from everything up there in the upper loop

00:40:17.460 but the wildlife was incredible we were in like five bison jams you know if you're going for if you're

00:40:23.560 going to yellowstone for for wildlife go to lamar valley don't let people tell you to go to hayden

00:40:29.100 valley that was a total bust for us and i've heard that from other people lamar valley is the place to go

00:40:34.980 to say bison what's camping like in yellowstone so many options there's a universe of camping inside

00:40:41.100 yellowstone in the lower loop the madison campground is one of the more popular options but then there's

00:40:47.120 there are campgrounds in all of the different parts of the park so you know if it's your first

00:40:52.820 trip to yellowstone look at madison campground that's relatively close to the gateway town of west

00:40:58.200 yellowstone and then as you progress into a second or third yellowstone trip you can get kind of deeper

00:41:03.400 into the park further into the park into the northern loop and get sites there and it's going

00:41:08.380 to be easier to get sites in the northern loop than the southern loop because the southern loops

00:41:13.260 where everybody goes and then there's great gateway towns koas there's all that stuff right outside of

00:41:17.580 the park and another nice thing about yellowstone opinion on where you are in the park it's really

00:41:22.680 close by to grand teton national park i liked grand teton more and i sometimes i totally liked

00:41:30.160 grand teton more it's a super short drive from the bottom of yellowstone into grand teton i mean if

00:41:35.700 i'm remembering correctly it's like a 10 minute drive and personally for me i liked grand teton more

00:41:40.780 because we're a hiking family and like teton's a hiking park to me where yellowstone is more of that

00:41:46.900 like you know cruising around in your car kind of park and i just thought the views were more

00:41:52.520 resplendent and awe-inspiring in teton i am not saying that yellowstone is overrated but my whole

00:42:00.580 life people have been saying yellowstone yellowstone best part national park in the country and it was

00:42:05.400 you know maybe not even in my top five grand teton was certainly in my top three and grand teton's

00:42:11.040 great for camping so in the center of grand teton national park there's an area called coulter village

00:42:17.420 and it's all concessionaire run but there's um there's a rv specific campground there's a tent

00:42:24.040 camping specific campground there's a cabin area we stayed in cabins last time the cat and cabins can

00:42:29.900 be an option in some of these national parks the cabins in teton were adorable then they have this

00:42:34.900 area called like the tent city or something like that where two of the walls are made of wood and two

00:42:40.000 of the walls are canvas and it's kind of like rustic glamping so teton's pretty easy to figure out the

00:42:46.100 camping thing too yeah i would agree grand teton is much better than yellowstone we went there i

00:42:50.860 think it was 20 end of 2021 and we did grand teton and what's amazing about grand teton it's

00:42:57.560 it seems so out of place in the united states you look up at it and it looks like you're looking at

00:43:02.900 the matterhorn or like you're in switzerland but it's the united it's crazy it's the views are great

00:43:07.320 and yeah then we went to yellowstone we just kind of drove around that was it but teton was the

00:43:11.800 highlight yeah and jackson's great too like i've not spent much time in my life being jealous of

00:43:16.920 rich people but you know when i was in jackson i was like man i wouldn't mind living here you know

00:43:22.360 right at the base of grand teton i mean to be able to just drive from your house into grand teton

00:43:26.540 national park would be amazing so you mentioned you wouldn't say yellowstone is overrated but it

00:43:32.180 didn't entirely live up to the hype are there any national parks you would say are you think are

00:43:38.160 overrated even amongst the ones we've talked about like you know grand canyon etc i i very rarely go to

00:43:45.220 one of these parks and oh this is this is overrated i just tend to be a guy that's like i'm just so happy

00:43:50.060 to be there i think olympic is underrated in washington state i think olympic is one of our

00:43:56.500 most majestic national parks and it's certainly not on as many people's bucket lists as a bunch of these

00:44:02.300 other ones that we've talked about we loved mount rushmore now a lot of people say mount

00:44:07.540 rushmore is overrated and we certainly there's the history of mount rushmore is very complicated

00:44:12.740 etc etc politically but we our family really liked mount rushmore and crazy horse i also i would say

00:44:21.080 badlands national park is underrated badlands national park in south dakota you feel like

00:44:26.600 you're on another planet it's not that big it doesn't take that many days to see and a lot of

00:44:32.540 people just kind of skip it on their road trip out west to get to yellowstone but i think that one's

00:44:37.740 underrated as well yeah if you go to badlands you get to hang out where teddy roosevelt hung out

00:44:42.880 exactly and well and theodore roosevelt national park i would say underrated up in north dakota it's

00:44:49.060 just so hard to get to that's part of the problem well i think too i mean maybe you know more about this

00:44:53.800 because i think when most people think national parks they're thinking the big ones out west are there

00:44:58.200 any overlooked national parks in the east that people like man you should go check that out because

00:45:02.120 it's actually really cool a hundred percent so like in the east we have acadia national park in maine

00:45:06.900 which is one of the most visited okay so that one's very popular but then you have cape cod

00:45:11.960 national seashore which my family adores cape cod national seashore it's not underrated in our region

00:45:20.200 if that makes sense everyone knows it around here but i don't know many people from out west who are

00:45:24.820 like i've got to get to cape cod national seashore so i'd say nationally that one is sort of a little

00:45:29.340 bit off the radar then i think shenandoah national park in virginia is definitely underrated i think

00:45:36.040 it's overshadowed by great smoky mountains national park which is somewhat nearby shenandoah is

00:45:41.400 beautiful beautiful hiking beautiful views only takes a couple of days to see it and now new river

00:45:47.500 gorge is our newest national park so i don't know if i want to say it's overrated or underrated yet

00:45:53.120 because i think people are just sort of figuring it out and discovering it but i do think that that

00:45:58.300 will emerge as a really really popular national park in the east and i also love cape hatteras

00:46:03.700 national seashore in north carolina that is astonishing beach camping options etc etc and

00:46:10.440 everybody on the east coast knows it but i don't think that nationally people know it and we mentioned

00:46:15.220 too the civil war sites that's also governed by the national park service and like you mentioned you

00:46:20.100 can camp not exactly in the monuments but nearby and that could be another cool you can plan a whole

00:46:26.160 summer vacation around that we're just going to camp along these civil war sites yeah because like

00:46:30.800 gettysburg is really close to hagerstown and then they're both really close to harper's ferry so those

00:46:36.120 three and there's not campgrounds in those parks but there's a culture of camping outside of the parks

00:46:41.820 that you could do a tour of those three battlefields you could do a week a week's trip camp around those

00:46:47.620 three battlefields and then maybe also head down to fredericksburg virginia and that's cool too because

00:46:52.220 then you're getting history you know it's a whole different type of national park strip than just

00:46:56.140 you know going hiking out west so you all have done a lot of camping and rvin to national parks but

00:47:01.980 there's a lot of great state parks too you guys have like a list of your favorite state parks that

00:47:06.760 you think are almost as good as a national park but don't have the crowds 100 the first one that always

00:47:12.500 comes to mind when people you know ask about state parks custer state park in south dakota if it

00:47:19.060 changed to a national park tomorrow you know i wouldn't be surprised at all i'm sure the state

00:47:22.620 doesn't want it to it is just as grand as any national park i've been to the wildlife at custer

00:47:29.540 state park was better than yellowstone and i had people tell me that before i didn't believe them but

00:47:34.720 then we went there and we saw more bison there than we saw in lamar valley in yellowstone so custer

00:47:40.860 is magnificent there's like 13 campgrounds in custer like south dakota takes a lot of pride in

00:47:46.520 their state park system and i think that custer is the crown jewel and then you could camp in custer

00:47:51.220 and go right to mount rushmore it's not very far south dakota most people blow through south dakota

00:47:57.700 we always tell people south dakota is its own vacation another one to consider and this is not

00:48:04.020 technically a state park but the adirondack park in new york state it's operated separately from

00:48:10.840 the state park system that is another place that is just as magnificent as any national park and i

00:48:18.220 feel like it flies way under the radar for people all across the country filled with great camping

00:48:23.900 filled with great hiking filled with fishing with waterfalls any outdoor activity you want you can

00:48:29.660 find in the adirondack park and the adirondack park is massive and it's intertwined with communities

00:48:35.940 and towns it's very very different than national park and then my favorite state park in the country

00:48:40.920 personally is assateague state park in maryland where you can camp right on the beach you know where

00:48:47.540 you can hear the waves crashing over the dunes from your tent site or rv site maybe not as big or as grand

00:48:53.960 as a national park but just as beautiful to me for me one that sticks out if you're going to zion

00:49:00.480 in southern utah there's a state park that's nine miles from st george it's snow canyon state park

00:49:07.560 it exceeded my expectations on the hiking and the views so if you're going to zion or you don't want

00:49:13.400 to deal with the crowds at zion check out snow canyon state park and then another great state park i like

00:49:18.480 i don't know if you can camp in there but jack london state park it's by san francisco kind of so you

00:49:24.700 got the redwoods great hiking small like hardly any crowds and you got to you get to see like where

00:49:29.580 jack london like he built this house out of materials in the area and the week before he

00:49:36.100 moved in it burnt down to the ground and the ruins are still there you can check that out so that's

00:49:40.780 cool jack london state park in california that reminds me of mark twain state park in missouri

00:49:45.780 where mark twain's i think birthplace home is there in that park as well well jeremy this has been a great

00:49:51.580 conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your work so the books are where

00:49:56.320 should we camp next and now the follow-up is where should we camp next national parks you can get it

00:50:00.320 wherever books are sold get it at an independent bookstore or from amazon obviously and then

00:50:05.020 everything else we do is at the rv atlas the rv atlas podcast at the rv atlas on all the different

00:50:10.120 social media handles fantastic well jeremy puglisi thanks so much time it's been a pleasure thank you so

00:50:15.460 much and again thank you for having all the great authors on the show and letting us talk about our books

00:50:19.620 appreciate it so much my guest here is jeremy puglisi he's the co-author of the book where should

00:50:24.620 we camp next national parks it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find

00:50:28.940 more information about him and his wife's work at the rv atlas.com also check out the podcast the rv

00:50:33.960 atlas podcast on any podcast platform you enjoy and check out our show notes at aom.is national parks

00:50:40.260 where you find links to resources and we delve deeper into this topic

00:50:42.980 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

00:50:54.320 art of manliness.com where you find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles that

00:50:58.120 we've written over the years about pretty much anything you think of and if you'd like to enjoy

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00:51:24.360 of it as always thank you for the continued support until next time this is brett mckay

00:51:28.240 reminding you to not listen to aom podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:51:40.060 you

The Art of Manliness - May 15, 2023

The Essential Guide to Visiting and Camping in the National Parks

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