The Art of Manliness - The Fitness Supplements That Actually Work

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.440 In your journey towards becoming stronger, fitter, and healthier, there often comes a

00:00:15.040 point where you wonder if taking some supplements will help your progress along, but what fitness

00:00:19.060 supplements are actually effective and worth investing in?

00:00:21.660 Here to answer that question is Lane Norton, a powerlifter and doctor in nutritional science

00:00:25.900 who has a passion for debunking health-related myths and promoting evidence-based recommendations.

00:00:30.840 He's also, full disclosure, the owner of a supplement company himself, but I don't have

00:00:35.340 any financial connection to Lane's company and we keep this conversation neutral and high

00:00:38.960 level.

00:00:39.700 In our conversation, Lane argues that there are three top-tier research-backed supplements

00:00:43.880 to consider, whey protein, creatine, and caffeine, and we unpack how to use each of them for optimal

00:00:49.680 results.

00:00:50.660 We discuss whether plant proteins are sufficient for building muscle, whether it's true that

00:00:54.460 creatine causes bloating, acne, and hair loss, how to best time your caffeine intake to

00:00:59.360 energize your workouts, and much more.

00:01:01.560 At the end of our conversation, Lane shares some additional supplements that seem promising

00:01:05.160 for enhancing your health and fitness.

00:01:07.240 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash supplements.

00:01:24.460 All right, Lane Norton, welcome back to the show.

00:01:30.660 Thanks, Brett.

00:01:31.300 I appreciate you having me on.

00:01:32.420 So we had you on a few years ago to talk about the science of fat loss, and that is episode

00:01:36.580 number 475 for those who want to check that out.

00:01:39.440 I brought you back because I wanted to talk about supplements.

00:01:43.740 This is something that you talk a lot about on your Instagram page.

00:01:46.800 You do a lot of great content making the scientific research about supplements accessible and understandable

00:01:53.000 for the layperson.

00:01:54.780 And the reason why I want to talk about supplements is because I think I've noticed this particularly

00:01:57.380 with younger men.

00:01:58.420 I know I did this when I was like, I want to get strong.

00:02:00.960 I want to get in shape.

00:02:02.040 One of the first things I would do, I would kind of glance over, okay, here's what I need

00:02:05.220 to eat.

00:02:05.960 Here's what I need to do.

00:02:06.940 I'm like, what supplements do I need to take?

00:02:09.940 But when do you think people should actually consider incorporating supplements into any lifestyle

00:02:15.360 changes they're making for health or fitness?

00:02:19.200 Well, to be quite frank, anybody who's listening to this is probably not going to pay attention

00:02:22.980 to my advice in terms of what I recommend, which is there are supplements that can be helpful.

00:02:29.540 There's no question about that.

00:02:31.220 And I myself own a supplement company.

00:02:34.040 However, what supplements can do, so just even the phrase, what supplements do I need?

00:02:40.760 By definition, there are no needed supplements.

00:02:44.600 They are on top of whatever you're already doing.

00:02:48.160 And yes, like even things like, for example, creatine, which is probably the most tested

00:02:52.220 and proven supplement there is, it has a significant effect, but the effect is relatively

00:02:59.440 small when you consider just what you can get from consistent training and nutrition.

00:03:06.500 Now, that being said, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't take creatine, especially if you're

00:03:10.660 somebody who's looking to maximize muscle mass and strength.

00:03:15.660 But this idea that there are supplements out there that you can take that are just going

00:03:22.480 to give you these drug-like pharmaceutical effects, they just do not exist, period.

00:03:29.660 It doesn't matter what anybody says.

00:03:31.480 You could have argued for a time that there were some that would give drug-like effects,

00:03:36.140 but that's because they were actually drugs.

00:03:39.600 So pro-hormones, pro-steroids, and even like basically designer steroids were able to be

00:03:45.740 brought to market by companies basically because there's thousands of supplement companies out

00:03:51.340 there.

00:03:52.380 And the idea that the FDA can just monitor all this stuff at all times is ridiculous.

00:03:57.920 They can't.

00:03:59.240 And so there were companies basically bringing out like actual steroids and selling them as

00:04:04.600 supplements.

00:04:06.120 And so, yeah, of course, like that could give you, you know, pharmaceutical-like effects.

00:04:11.240 The problem was those steroids tend to be less effective with more side effects than what

00:04:17.920 you would get like pharmaceutically.

00:04:20.220 So when it comes to actual like truly legal supplements, even the most effective ones, you're

00:04:27.180 looking at relatively small benefits.

00:04:29.520 But again, that doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't use them or that it doesn't make

00:04:35.240 sense.

00:04:35.980 It just means that if you're somebody who's, you know, taking piles of supplements, but

00:04:41.460 you don't even understand how to train hard, you aren't even consistent with your training

00:04:46.700 and you don't really pay attention to your nutrition.

00:04:49.180 I mean, you're basically stepping over, you know, dollars to pick up pennies essentially.

00:04:55.080 Right.

00:04:55.320 Yeah.

00:04:55.480 They're a supplement.

00:04:56.420 That's the thing.

00:04:57.320 They're called supplements for a reason.

00:04:58.860 So it sounds like if you focus on your nutrition first, your exercise, your rest and recovery,

00:05:04.240 and that's something I think a lot of people underplay is the value of sleep, stress management.

00:05:08.260 For sure.

00:05:08.840 That's going to get you, you're going to be great.

00:05:11.180 You're going to be in great shape.

00:05:12.120 Now, if you're looking for a little bit added, supplements can come in handy there.

00:05:16.120 Yeah, and I think a lot of people, you know, it's just our like hack culture, our biohack

00:05:23.900 culture, which is how can I hack my way around really hard work over a really long period

00:05:30.600 of time?

00:05:31.560 And I will tell you to anybody listening, if people took the amount of time, effort, and

00:05:38.120 money that they spent trying to hack their way around hard work and just applied that

00:05:43.540 to hard work, they would get so far.

00:05:47.960 In fact, that is actually the hack just to do the work.

00:05:52.800 And most people, unfortunately, don't want to hear that.

00:05:55.920 And I think a lot of it's just how society is set up now for instant gratification.

00:06:01.260 And, you know, you can pop on your cell phone, order food, order anything you need off the

00:06:07.040 internet.

00:06:07.320 You can communicate with anybody instantly.

00:06:10.720 But guess what?

00:06:11.460 Your genetics and your body are, you know, the summation of billions of years of cells

00:06:21.240 going through natural selection to reach where we are now.

00:06:25.220 And this idea that you're just going to rapidly change things. 0.98

00:06:28.420 I mean, it's just a fool's errand.

00:06:30.140 And so I think if people could just embrace this idea of hard work and consistency, they

00:06:38.920 would get so much further.

00:06:40.480 But that's a pretty big ask in today's society, I think.

00:06:44.100 Yeah, for sure.

00:06:44.680 Okay.

00:06:44.940 So, you know, there are a lot of supplements out there.

00:06:46.780 They don't work.

00:06:47.540 It's basically snake oil.

00:06:48.760 But there are a few supplements that do work and they're well vetted by research and they're

00:06:53.560 ones that you recommend.

00:06:54.460 And the top tier of these are whey protein, creatine, and caffeine.

00:07:00.000 We're going to talk about each of these.

00:07:02.020 But before we start talking about whey protein specifically, let's talk about protein in general.

00:07:06.980 How much protein do people actually need for health and strength?

00:07:11.680 I'm glad you put that caveat at the end because most people use the term need inappropriately.

00:07:16.340 So the protein you need is just to, you know, not have a deficiency, which is about 0.8

00:07:21.920 grams per kilogram.

00:07:22.820 But if the goal is to maximize muscle mass or to build muscle, you probably at least want

00:07:30.220 to get 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

00:07:34.300 And if you're really concerned with maxing out, I'd probably look at up to 2.5 grams per

00:07:40.780 kilogram of body weight.

00:07:42.260 What would that be in freedom units?

00:07:44.480 Around one gram per pound.

00:07:46.020 One gram per pound.

00:07:46.300 By the way, for those listening, this is something that's just annoying to me.

00:07:50.260 Um, just divide by 2.2 and also just learn the metric system.

00:07:55.740 It's way better.

00:07:57.660 I'll tell you when measuring macros, I've recently just shifted all the metric grams.

00:08:02.760 That's it.

00:08:03.080 It's so much easier, more exact.

00:08:05.680 Well, I mean, if you think about the, I don't want to get too much of a rant, but you know,

00:08:09.660 metric makes sense because it's all in units of 10.

00:08:12.660 You know, like everything is moving in units of 10.

00:08:15.720 Whereas like, if you're trying to do, you know, the English standard system, you know,

00:08:20.600 a mile is what?

00:08:21.740 5,280 feet.

00:08:23.500 And then a foot is 12 inches.

00:08:24.920 And then it looks like all these units all over the place, you know, whereas, you know,

00:08:28.620 metric makes sense because it's based off of increments of 10.

00:08:31.840 But I understand that the U S audiences is always going to struggle with that.

00:08:35.960 But yeah, if you're, if you're worried about it, it's about one gram per pound of body weight.

00:08:40.040 So that's just, if you're looking for like strength, for overall health, it'd be even

00:08:43.700 less, I mean, it'd be less than that, right?

00:08:45.840 Yeah.

00:08:46.300 You'd probably be fine with, you know, 0.7 grams per pound.

00:08:49.900 I do think, you know, having enough protein is a benefit because even if your goal is fat

00:08:56.320 loss, protein increases energy expenditure and it helps to retain lean body mass when dieting.

00:09:03.260 So that can help because people who lose more lean mass when they diet are more likely to

00:09:08.840 regain the fat they lost.

00:09:10.960 So I do think protein has some benefit and protein has better satiety, a gram per gram

00:09:15.480 than carbohydrate or fat in general.

00:09:17.780 So I do think protein has some added benefits that, you know, people could get beyond the

00:09:23.520 muscle building effects.

00:09:24.820 Gotcha.

00:09:25.260 And would you recommend people try to get most of their protein from food sources as opposed

00:09:29.260 to a whey protein supplement?

00:09:31.260 I don't think it really matters.

00:09:32.780 I mean, if you're somebody who just doesn't like protein containing foods, I think that

00:09:37.820 using a whey protein or a protein powder or whatever it is, I think those are totally

00:09:43.600 fine.

00:09:44.200 I don't think that's necessarily worse for you or anything like that.

00:09:48.320 But, you know, in general, if you can get it from food, then it's, it's not better.

00:09:54.220 I don't want to say it's better, but you don't have to use a protein supplement.

00:09:58.260 You can just get it from food and it'd be perfectly fine.

00:10:01.400 The one caveat to that is if you are vegan or, you know, plant-based, that plant-based

00:10:08.540 sources of protein, especially the intact plant.

00:10:12.200 So like if you're having, you know, instead of having soy isolate, if you're having soy

00:10:18.080 beans, in those cases, the protein or the amino acids are bound up in the fibrous material

00:10:24.960 of the plant and are less bioavailable.

00:10:28.340 So I would say in those cases, a supplement could be superior, but if you're consuming

00:10:35.720 like an omnivorous diet, you don't need to consume a protein supplement as long as you're

00:10:40.800 getting enough total protein.

00:10:42.800 So if you do take a protein supplement, why is whey protein a great supplemental source

00:10:47.640 of protein?

00:10:48.520 Whey protein is great for a lot of reasons.

00:10:51.580 The first one is it's very bioavailable.

00:10:55.280 So the bioavailability is like nearly a hundred percent.

00:10:59.440 The second is it has a great amino acid profile, a very high in essential amino acids, very high

00:11:04.680 in branched chain amino acids, very high in leucine.

00:11:08.660 And leucine is the branched chain amino acid that I did my PhD research on and is responsible

00:11:13.320 for increasing or triggering muscle protein synthesis.

00:11:18.300 So, you know, instead of basically the body evolving to sense all the amino acids for triggering

00:11:24.680 muscle protein synthesis, the body evolved to just sense one, which is leucine.

00:11:31.780 And that's probably because leucine is not really metabolized by the gut or liver.

00:11:37.840 So it reaches the bloodstream and quantitative values, similar to what you see in diet, and

00:11:43.500 it has passive transport across the cell.

00:11:47.760 So basically what your muscles are seeing in terms of leucine reflects what you're consuming

00:11:55.200 in your diet and high leucine sources of food are almost always high in all the essential

00:12:01.940 amino acids.

00:12:02.740 And so it makes sense that the body would have evolved to sense leucine as opposed to

00:12:08.260 any other amino acid, at least in terms of initiating muscle protein synthesis.

00:12:13.300 So that's another reason that whey protein is great.

00:12:15.760 Like for example, most animal-based sources of protein are around eight, nine percent leucine

00:12:20.440 in terms of grams of leucine per a hundred grams of protein.

00:12:24.260 Whey protein is 11 or 12.

00:12:26.320 And then if you look at like plant-based sources, which are like six to 8% leucine, you know,

00:12:31.320 you get almost double in whey protein.

00:12:33.600 And then whey protein is typically, just by its nature, pretty easy to flavor because

00:12:39.440 even like unflavored, whey protein does not have an objectionable flavor.

00:12:43.680 It's like, I wouldn't say it's sweet, but it's not a bad taste.

00:12:48.380 Whereas like if you've ever tasted like casein by itself or soy by itself or wheat by itself

00:12:54.480 or egg protein by itself, it's pretty gnarly when it's unflavored.

00:12:57.640 So those are some of the reasons that whey protein, and it's very competitive price-wise

00:13:03.660 with other proteins.

00:13:05.000 For a long time, it was very, very inexpensive.

00:13:07.080 And now just, I think COVID increased the price of darn near everything, but whey protein

00:13:13.340 certainly went up quite a bit.

00:13:14.920 Is there a difference between isolate and concentrate?

00:13:17.000 And is one better than the other?

00:13:18.340 Yeah.

00:13:18.740 So concentrate, so when a milk comes out of a cow, it's obviously whole milk.

00:13:23.120 So you centrifuge it, which is basically you spin it really, really fast, and that separates

00:13:28.740 out some of the gunk, especially like the fat from the protein.

00:13:33.400 You take off the fat, you take that, and now you add acid to it.

00:13:39.060 And that will cause the, if you add basically what's called an isoelectric point, the casein

00:13:46.220 in the milk protein.

00:13:47.840 So milk protein is about 80% whey and 20% casein.

00:13:51.640 If you add the appropriate amount of acid to that mixture, it will cause the casein to

00:13:56.920 precipitate out, which means it basically becomes a solid.

00:14:00.620 And so then you can take the supernatant, which is the liquid, which contains the whey.

00:14:04.780 You pour that off, and then you basically dry that.

00:14:10.420 So it's a liquid, but you dry it, remove the acid, and now you have whey protein concentrate.

00:14:17.020 There's a few other steps in there I'm glossing over, but that's essentially the process.

00:14:20.400 Now, whey protein concentrate is usually about 70% to 80% protein, and it is still a high-quality

00:14:27.660 protein source.

00:14:28.940 Whey protein concentrate does have a little bit more fat, a little bit more lactose, and

00:14:34.980 so some people don't tolerate it real well just because of the lactose.

00:14:40.220 For those people, going to an isolate can be really, really helpful because basically doing

00:14:46.920 an isolate adds an extra filtration process to it, which essentially removes almost all

00:14:53.440 the lactose and all the fat.

00:14:56.640 And so what you're left with is a very, very almost protein-exclusive, especially based on

00:15:04.000 weight, like whey protein concentrate is like 70% to 80% protein based on weight.

00:15:09.320 Whey protein isolate is over 90% typically.

00:15:13.520 So you're just getting a very, quote-unquote, clean source of protein with not calories from

00:15:18.880 carbs or fats, really, and you're removing most of the lactose.

00:15:22.220 So most people tolerate a whey isolate really well, whereas a decent proportion of the population 0.58

00:15:28.180 doesn't tolerate a concentrate well.

00:15:29.940 But if you can tolerate a concentrate, you know, it's just as good for muscle building.

00:15:34.360 Let's talk about, people hear a lot about the best times to take whey protein.

00:15:39.040 Is there a best time or is any time a great time to take whey protein?

00:15:41.820 It's just any time you need a high-quality source of protein.

00:15:44.680 You know, people will say, you need to take it right after your workout because it's a

00:15:47.820 fast-digesting protein.

00:15:49.620 So that's another myth.

00:15:50.820 Whey is not really a fast-digesting protein.

00:15:53.540 It's pretty normal based on most proteins.

00:15:56.300 It's that casein, which is the other component of whey, casein is kind of an oddball.

00:16:02.820 Casein is a very, very slow digesting protein.

00:16:05.840 And that is because it basically kind of congeals in the stomach, which slows down the emptying

00:16:14.680 of that we call material that's moving through digestion.

00:16:18.260 We call it chyme.

00:16:19.440 So it slows down the emptying of that chyme from the pyloric sphincter into the duodenum,

00:16:26.060 which the duodenum is where a lot of digestion and absorption takes place in terms of enzymatic

00:16:31.160 digestion, that is.

00:16:33.200 And so you get kind of this slow trickle of those amino acids into the duodenum when using

00:16:39.700 something like casein.

00:16:40.580 But casein kind of stands alone like that.

00:16:42.700 There's not really many other proteins that behave that way.

00:16:46.600 So the idea that whey is a fast protein is not really supported by data, in my opinion.

00:16:52.200 It's just that casein is slow.

00:16:53.580 So what's the point of if you took casein?

00:16:55.800 Why would people take casein over whey?

00:16:57.680 Well, the idea behind casein is, well, if you're going to go a long time without having

00:17:01.220 whey protein or without having any protein, you take casein, it can take up to six to

00:17:08.280 eight hours to fully be absorbed.

00:17:11.000 And so you're getting this like, quote unquote, slow drip of amino acids.

00:17:14.080 I would argue that based on some data that we had in our lab on what's called the muscle

00:17:19.920 full effect and some other data, I don't think that it really makes a difference at

00:17:25.900 all.

00:17:26.640 But some people prefer to have casein like before bed since they're going to be fasting

00:17:30.980 for eight hours, those sorts of things.

00:17:33.320 That's fine.

00:17:34.040 It's certainly not going to hurt anything, but I don't really think it's going to make

00:17:36.460 a big difference either.

00:17:37.940 So you mentioned some other protein supplement products.

00:17:40.620 There's like eggs, soy, you know, other plant-based, can you get the same muscle building benefits 0.82

00:17:45.440 of whey protein with those things?

00:17:48.600 You know, it's so hard to pick this stuff apart.

00:17:51.120 If you look at the muscle protein synthesis response, whey tends to be a little bit better

00:17:56.320 than either of those proteins.

00:17:58.340 But when you look at the studies on actual muscle building, it's less clear.

00:18:05.100 The issue with some of those studies is a lot of them are, you know, 8, 10, 12, 16 weeks.

00:18:13.280 Muscle mass is built very, very slowly.

00:18:16.200 And so could there be a difference over the course of a year or years?

00:18:22.540 There could be, but there's never going to be enough money to run a randomized control

00:18:27.260 trial that long of a period of time.

00:18:29.100 So we don't know, my wager would be that egg would be very similar to whey, if not like

00:18:38.040 absolutely no difference.

00:18:40.080 Soy, there may be a small difference over time in terms of whey is probably a little bit

00:18:45.640 better, but you're not going to get a clear cut answer reading the research data.

00:18:50.140 Gotcha.

00:18:50.420 What about like pea proteins?

00:18:52.940 Pea protein, probably similar to soy in terms of muscle building properties.

00:18:57.240 The downside to pea protein is I believe it is almost frank deficient in methionine, I

00:19:03.220 think.

00:19:04.620 So soy protein has the benefit of, it is a complete protein.

00:19:08.660 It has a good amino acid store.

00:19:10.480 There's a decent amount of essential amino acids in it.

00:19:13.220 Pea protein is devoid in some amino acids.

00:19:16.420 So not that it doesn't contain them, but they're in such low amounts that you would become

00:19:21.200 deficient if that was all you consumed.

00:19:23.200 So if you're going to do a pea protein, it's usually good to combine it with another plant

00:19:28.860 based protein that kind of fills in those gaps.

00:19:32.840 Now you can combine it with like wheat protein, for example, like wheat protein isolate, and

00:19:37.860 you would kind of cover your bases because wheat is deficient in lysine, but I don't believe

00:19:43.820 pea is deficient in lysine.

00:19:45.420 So you could combine those two and get the benefits.

00:19:47.600 Now, a lot of people are opposed to using soy because, oh, it's going to take my testosterone.

00:19:53.060 It's going to cause me to be feminine. 1.00

00:19:55.760 There was a recent meta-analyses done looking at this, and it found that at least like if

00:20:02.640 you're talking like one or two servings of soy a day, soy protein, had no effects on

00:20:07.600 testosterone, estrogen, none of that.

00:20:10.080 So I think those concerns are very, very much overblown.

00:20:13.320 All right.

00:20:14.660 So I guess take away the protein, get one gram per pound of body weight if you're looking

00:20:18.600 to get strong.

00:20:19.560 You don't necessarily need to take a protein supplement if you're getting it from food

00:20:22.560 sources, and if you are way isolate, it's probably going to be your, it's easy on the

00:20:26.540 stomach, it tastes good, and most bang for your buck.

00:20:30.060 Yeah.

00:20:30.440 I mean, if you're, if you're, if you tolerate a concentrate, okay, you can save a little bit

00:20:33.680 of money using a concentrate.

00:20:35.560 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:20:37.580 And now back to the show, let's talk about another supplement that has a lot of research

00:20:45.620 behind it and that you recommend, and that's creatine.

00:20:48.080 So what is creatine and what are the benefits of it?

00:20:51.620 So creatine is a combination of different amino acids and it's produced naturally by the

00:20:57.380 body and it's found in some meat sources.

00:20:59.160 So some people say, well, just eat, just eat meat.

00:21:01.800 But because cooking can reduce the bioavailability of creatine and meat, if you were eating raw

00:21:09.200 meat, you'd need about three pounds of raw meat a day.

00:21:13.300 And if you were cooking it, you'd need probably closer to six or seven.

00:21:16.860 So pretty difficult to get in enough creatine to maximize muscle phosphocreatine stores.

00:21:23.940 So that's, I want to point that out, that usually you have to supplement with it if you

00:21:28.140 want to max out your muscle phosphocreatine stores.

00:21:30.880 And so when I say phosphocreatine, phosphocreatine is the active form of creatine.

00:21:36.580 So if you take creatine, it goes into your digestion, your bloodstream, your muscle can

00:21:42.880 pick it up, and then it adds a phosphate group to it.

00:21:45.740 And now that creatine is a high energy phosphate donor.

00:21:50.360 So many of you may have heard, you know, the term ATP, adenosine triphosphate, which is

00:21:56.480 your body's energy currency.

00:21:57.960 That's what your body uses to literally generate energy and get unfavorable reactions to happen

00:22:04.880 because it's such a high energy phosphate, it can power those reactions.

00:22:09.860 Well, when you use ATP in a reaction, it forms ADP.

00:22:16.540 So you get a free phosphate and adenosine diphosphate molecule.

00:22:21.600 Phosphocreatine can donate its phosphate to ADP to reform ATP.

00:22:25.740 So that's why we see, or at least why we think we see some performance benefits when using

00:22:31.080 creatine because you're helping reform that energy substrate.

00:22:36.740 Now, the other thing with creatine is it does increase lean mass.

00:22:42.780 And the way it does this is a little bit less known, but we do know very conclusively that

00:22:48.620 creatine increases lean mass and strength.

00:22:51.060 And part of that may be through increasing cellular volume.

00:22:55.780 So increasing water inside the cell.

00:22:58.700 And people have said, well, creatine causes water retention.

00:23:01.900 Not the kind of water retention that looks bad.

00:23:05.240 Okay.

00:23:06.220 Creatine puts water inside muscle cells.

00:23:09.760 That is a positive.

00:23:11.120 That is a good thing.

00:23:12.420 A hydrated cell is typically an anabolic cell.

00:23:14.760 And this idea that creatine is going to cause water retention, it's causing water retention

00:23:22.540 exactly where you want water.

00:23:24.680 Now, people who have said things like, well, I take creatine, I get bloated.

00:23:29.740 That is not the same thing as water retention.

00:23:32.240 What you are experiencing is GI discomfort because creatine is a gut irritant for some folks.

00:23:38.140 So, and especially if you're taking it with caffeine, because caffeine is also a gut irritant.

00:23:43.300 So if you're taking them together, you can really have like quite a bit of gut irritation.

00:23:48.940 Now, what I would say with creatine is in order to get the benefits from creatine, you want to

00:23:55.720 saturate the muscle cell 100% with phosphocreatine.

00:23:58.920 If you supplement with 5 grams of creatine monohydrate per day, within 2 or 3 weeks, you will likely saturate

00:24:07.360 the muscle cells, if not 4 weeks.

00:24:09.760 You can also load it, which where you take 15 to 25 grams per day, and you'll saturate it within a week.

00:24:18.400 So you'll get some results faster.

00:24:20.460 The downside is most people experience some kind of GI discomfort using a loading phase.

00:24:27.140 So if you're somebody who doesn't want to feel, you know, bloated or feel like you're

00:24:32.420 retaining water, quote unquote, then I would recommend not loading and just taking a maintenance

00:24:36.500 dose.

00:24:37.560 Gotcha.

00:24:37.920 So I guess the benefits of creatine can help increase lean muscle mass and can help with

00:24:41.980 strength performance as well.

00:24:44.120 And it improves performance in terms of, it might improve like fatigue resistance.

00:24:50.240 And there's some more recent literature demonstrating that creatine may actually have cognitive benefits

00:24:55.340 as well.

00:24:56.480 Okay.

00:24:57.580 And so again, the dosage on that, you can just do five, is it five grams a day?

00:25:01.680 Yeah.

00:25:01.960 Five grams a day.

00:25:02.700 If you're somebody who has GI discomfort with that, then I would recommend splitting up two,

00:25:06.700 two and a half gram doses per day.

00:25:08.620 And then that should help with the GI discomfort.

00:25:11.040 Is there a best time to take creatine?

00:25:13.120 Like after a workout, you have to take, I've heard things like, you gotta take it with a

00:25:15.700 quick carb to help absorption.

00:25:17.240 Is there anything to do that?

00:25:18.100 No, no, no, no.

00:25:19.060 So I would say that whatever time of the day that you'll take it, it doesn't really matter

00:25:23.520 because it's not like you take creatine and all of a sudden you get the benefits.

00:25:28.020 You have to saturate the muscle cell.

00:25:29.860 So it takes time.

00:25:30.880 So it doesn't really matter when you take it.

00:25:32.800 What matters is you take it consistently.

00:25:34.700 Gotcha.

00:25:35.380 Let's talk about some of the myths of creatine.

00:25:37.740 You mentioned like the bloating one. 0.71

00:25:39.200 I remember when creatine first got a lot of, I guess, I don't think it was, this was like

00:25:43.260 98, 99 when the home run, the steroid era home run race was going on.

00:25:47.580 I think it was mentioned like Mark McGuire took creatine.

00:25:49.960 I wanted to take creatine for football.

00:25:51.820 My parents were like, I don't know.

00:25:52.860 This is like steroids.

00:25:54.180 Are there any myths around creatine?

00:25:56.060 Is it toxic to liver?

00:25:57.700 Can it cause, I've heard like it could cause hair loss, acne, anything to that?

00:26:01.600 Tons of myths, tons of myths.

00:26:03.060 There's no evidence it causes acne.

00:26:04.800 It certainly doesn't damage the liver.

00:26:06.820 We would have seen that.

00:26:07.760 It doesn't damage a healthy kidney.

00:26:09.640 The one that has seemed to stuck is the hair loss thing.

00:26:13.620 So I'm happy to address this.

00:26:15.900 This comes from a single study in 2009 that has never been replicated.

00:26:21.380 And they did not show that it caused hair loss.

00:26:24.640 What they showed was that people who took creatine had greater levels of DHT, which is a hormone

00:26:31.200 that is associated with decreased hair length.

00:26:34.820 And I think hair loss as well, but showing an increase in a hormone that's associated with

00:26:39.620 hair loss is not the same thing as showing hair loss.

00:26:42.180 This is something that gets screwed up by people all the time in terms of them jumping to conclusions.

00:26:48.880 There are all kinds of things that you can show as markers or mechanisms increase in response

00:26:55.720 to something else.

00:26:58.260 And then when they actually go to measure...

00:26:59.980 So a great example of this, for example, is high protein diets and calcium excretion.

00:27:05.480 Okay?

00:27:05.780 So if you eat a high protein diet, they've shown it will increase your calcium excretion.

00:27:11.860 And some people have said, see, it causes bone loss.

00:27:14.280 When they actually measure bone density, high protein diets do not cause bone loss.

00:27:22.360 So you can't just say, well, A equals B and B equals C, so therefore A equals C.

00:27:28.900 That's not how things work in physiology.

00:27:31.240 So that's one aspect of it.

00:27:32.720 The other aspect is they didn't see...

00:27:35.000 So DHT is a metabolite of testosterone, actually.

00:27:38.520 They didn't see their other hormones change in response to creatine supplementation.

00:27:44.660 So where is this increase in DHT coming from?

00:27:48.660 So those things, coupled with the fact that the study 15 years later has still not been

00:27:53.340 replicated, I would say you don't have to worry about hair loss on creatine based on

00:27:58.420 the current data.

00:27:59.920 Gotcha.

00:28:00.320 I'm curious that maybe there's parents listening to this, their kids.

00:28:02.720 They're getting into late middle school, early high school, where they're starting to take

00:28:05.800 their physical training a little bit more serious.

00:28:08.060 Is there any...

00:28:08.840 Is there like an age limit when kids start supplementing with creatine?

00:28:13.340 Not...

00:28:14.060 I mean, this...

00:28:14.740 First off, I have to do the disclaimer.

00:28:17.440 If you're going...

00:28:17.880 If you're under 18 years old, make sure you talk to your mom and dad and make sure you

00:28:21.660 talk to a doctor.

00:28:23.140 That being said, I'm aware of no research data showing that creatine supplementation is

00:28:28.160 contraindicated at a certain age.

00:28:30.040 I have yet to see any research data demonstrating that it's a bad thing for kids.

00:28:35.340 And it sounds like, I mean, could creatine be something that even just regular people

00:28:38.360 who aren't really focused on getting, you know, on performance in the gym?

00:28:44.560 Is it a good supplement just to take for overall health and well-being?

00:28:48.360 I think so.

00:28:49.360 I mean, given it can increase lean mass, there may be some cognitive benefits and it's pretty

00:28:55.160 darn cheap.

00:28:55.860 I think it's like, you know, you can get plain old creatine monohydrate for like 20, 30 0.99

00:29:00.660 cents a serving.

00:29:01.600 It's pretty cheap.

00:29:02.520 It's pretty cheap.

00:29:03.400 All right.

00:29:03.640 So that's talking about whey protein, about creatine.

00:29:05.400 The other supplement...

00:29:06.180 Which is also...

00:29:06.700 I want to go ahead and touch this as well in terms of creatine mist.

00:29:09.980 There's...

00:29:10.580 People try to reinvent the creatine wheel.

00:29:13.340 They come out with creatine ethyl ester and buffered creatine and creatine hydrochloride.

00:29:19.280 I will be very clear.

00:29:20.680 Creatine monohydrate saturates the muscle cell 100% with phosphocreatine.

00:29:24.820 You cannot get better than 100%.

00:29:26.980 Every other form of creatine is either not as good as creatine monohydrate in research studies

00:29:34.840 or it is as good, but it costs more.

00:29:37.480 So I just don't see any point to using anything other than creatine monohydrate.

00:29:42.540 Like creatine ethyl ester has actually been shown to convert to creatinine, the waste

00:29:46.520 product, at a greater rate than creatine monohydrate.

00:29:49.600 So creatine ethyl ester is an absolute waste of money.

00:29:53.400 It's also like two or three times more expensive than monohydrate.

00:29:56.440 And then buffered creatine seems to be as good as creatine monohydrate, maybe just a touch

00:30:01.300 less, but it costs two to three times as much.

00:30:06.260 Creatine is stable in stomach acid.

00:30:07.940 You don't need to buffer it.

00:30:08.840 So this idea that you need these special forms of creatine, that is for one reason and one

00:30:17.140 reason only.

00:30:18.480 Creatine monohydrate is so ubiquitous that the companies are in such competition with

00:30:23.880 each other price-wise.

00:30:25.260 What happens when a bunch of companies compete with each other?

00:30:28.120 They sell things really, really cheap because they're trying to slim their margins so that

00:30:33.100 they can sell in bulk and they can get a bigger market share.

00:30:36.040 And so in an effort to convince the public that they should spend more money because they

00:30:43.240 can make a lot more money, they've made these new forms of creatine that either aren't as

00:30:49.860 good or they are as good and just way more expensive.

00:30:52.220 So I will say, do not waste your money on any form of creatine other than creatine monohydrate.

00:30:58.240 Let's talk about the third supplement you recommend.

00:31:00.560 That's caffeine.

00:31:01.700 What are the health and performance benefits of caffeine?

00:31:03.780 So caffeine has been shown to block the adenosine receptor, which can improve wakefulness and

00:31:12.480 alertness.

00:31:13.180 It's also been shown to decrease fatigue and even some studies showing it modestly increases

00:31:19.880 maximal strength, but you have to get the dose pretty high for that.

00:31:22.900 So for increasing strength, it's like closer to 0.6 grams per kilogram.

00:31:29.440 So for me as a, you know, 95 kilogram person, you know, I'm going to need to be, you know,

00:31:37.280 close to five or 600 milligrams of caffeine at a dose in order to get those benefits.

00:31:42.700 The performance benefits on fatigue are slightly lower.

00:31:46.380 They're, you know, 200, 300 milligrams.

00:31:49.080 And then you can get the benefits of like becoming less sleepy or more alert at, you know,

00:31:54.360 a hundred plus milligrams of caffeine.

00:31:56.300 Okay.

00:31:57.740 So if you want the strength before, you have to take a lot, that's a lot.

00:32:00.460 500.

00:32:01.020 Is that just in one time?

00:32:02.160 Like before you do it?

00:32:03.120 Yeah, one time.

00:32:03.640 That's a, it's a pretty big dose.

00:32:05.080 So are you doing that before a competition, like before a big lift?

00:32:08.920 How are you doing that?

00:32:10.420 I'm kind of, I like caffeine quite a bit.

00:32:12.720 So I usually have like 300 to 600 before lifting sessions.

00:32:16.520 It depends on the session.

00:32:17.300 If it's just like a kind of an upper body session, I might only do two or 300, but if it's

00:32:21.920 a, you know, lower body squat deadlift where I'm going to go to a pretty high RPE, I'll

00:32:27.080 do, you know, four to 600 milligrams of caffeine.

00:32:30.280 That's a lot.

00:32:31.060 So what about someone just like regular person who's like not really doing what you're doing?

00:32:35.480 How much caffeine are they?

00:32:37.580 Yeah.

00:32:37.840 I mean, it just depends on what they want to get out of it.

00:32:39.660 You know, if they're just looking to feel focused and, oh, by the way, caffeine also

00:32:43.740 been shown to have cognitive benefits as well.

00:32:45.920 If they're just, and caffeine is something that unlike creatine, caffeine will work the first

00:32:50.760 time you take it.

00:32:52.300 So I would say for the average person, 150 to 300 milligrams of caffeine, depending on

00:32:57.760 their tolerance.

00:32:58.900 And it just depends on what they want to get out of it.

00:33:00.580 You know, if they, the more you take, you know, up to a certain point, the more of the

00:33:05.860 benefits you're going to get, but you also have to balance that with some people don't

00:33:08.880 like the, you know, the jittery feeling.

00:33:11.480 They don't like feeling like overstimulated.

00:33:13.980 And so they just need to balance that in terms of, you know, the not enjoying the feeling,

00:33:19.620 but then also wanting to get the benefits from it.

00:33:23.120 Does it matter if you get your caffeine from coffee or a pre-workout or anything like maybe

00:33:26.760 just a caffeine pill?

00:33:29.000 Probably not.

00:33:29.980 I will say coffee is relatively not low in caffeine, but it's not as high as some people

00:33:35.560 think.

00:33:35.920 I mean, if you have like a pretty tall cup of coffee, you might have 100 to 150 milligrams

00:33:43.020 of caffeine that just compare that to the same size of like a, some of these energy drinks

00:33:48.180 that have 300 or pre-workouts that have 300.

00:33:51.460 So again, you can get it from caffeine or from coffee.

00:33:55.300 The other issue with coffee is there's other phenolic compounds in there that are also gut

00:33:59.900 irritants.

00:34:01.240 So a lot of you may have noticed that when you take a pre-workout or have a lot of coffee,

00:34:06.160 you end up in the bathroom and have to, you know, go number two.

00:34:10.440 That is because of the gut irritation from not just caffeine, but those other compounds.

00:34:16.100 So say you were going to take caffeine to improve performance in the gym.

00:34:18.520 So let's say you're taking 250 up to 500 like you are.

00:34:22.820 How early before a workout should you, like how should you time the caffeine consumption

00:34:27.120 so you get the benefit during your workout session?

00:34:29.280 You probably want it about 45 minutes before your training.

00:34:32.280 And the reason is it takes about that long for caffeine to peak in the system.

00:34:36.680 And then the half-life is six hours.

00:34:38.840 So meaning even at six hours post-caffeine ingestion, there's still half of it available

00:34:43.800 in your system.

00:34:45.460 So, or on average, half of it available in your system.

00:34:49.380 So, you know, these people getting to the gym, whipping out their pre-workout of their gym

00:34:54.080 bag and dry scooping, this is not the way you would do it to maximize optimal performance.

00:35:01.260 Do you recommend cycling on and off caffeine to avoid tolerance or do you not have to worry about

00:35:05.860 that?

00:35:06.740 So there's no evidence that you need to cycle.

00:35:09.440 And in fact, they have shown that even over time, you still get the performance benefits

00:35:14.900 of caffeine, even if you've been using it habitually.

00:35:17.840 So I would say you don't have to cycle off of it.

00:35:20.520 I tend to cycle off of it before a big meet just because I like to, if I haven't taken

00:35:26.280 it for a while, I do get like a pretty, it may be a placebo effect, but I feel it a lot

00:35:31.560 more.

00:35:32.380 Now, does that actually lead to more, you know, better outcomes?

00:35:36.940 I, who knows, but I personally, for the most part, do not cycle off of it.

00:35:44.980 Gotcha.

00:35:45.520 Speaking of pre-workouts, there's a lot of, a lot of them out there on the market.

00:35:49.240 Anything people should avoid?

00:35:50.540 Like if you're looking at a label and you see that has X ingredient, is that like a deal

00:35:54.600 breaker for you when it comes to a pre-workout?

00:35:56.060 Um, not particularly, I mean, there's a lot of, uh, ingredients that I would be like, okay,

00:36:03.180 this doesn't work.

00:36:04.440 But the thing I really look for is, does it say proprietary blend or does it list the absolute

00:36:11.120 amounts on the label?

00:36:13.700 Because if it says proprietary blend, then it's probably worthless.

00:36:19.560 So what is a proprietary blend?

00:36:21.900 So the idea of a proprietary blend was that, you know, you didn't need to disclose exactly

00:36:27.480 how much of each ingredient was in your product, because what if companies have a secret sauce?

00:36:33.160 You know, the reality is everyone has access to the same studies.

00:36:37.440 We know what an effective dose is.

00:36:40.340 There is no secret sauce.

00:36:41.720 The reason people or companies use a proprietary blend is so that they can say, for example,

00:36:51.240 citrulline malate, let's say citrulline malate as an example, because we have citrulline malate

00:36:55.580 in our pre-workout.

00:36:57.060 We have six grams.

00:36:58.400 Six grams of citrulline malate is the minimum dose that's been shown to be effective in research

00:37:02.280 studies.

00:37:03.260 And at six grams of citrulline malate, it is 40% of the cost of our pre-workout.

00:37:10.340 Okay.

00:37:10.560 Now, imagine you're somebody who wants, if you're a company and you want to improve

00:37:15.700 your margins, you can simply say it has citrulline malate in it, put 500 milligrams in, and now

00:37:21.880 you've saved yourself, you know, 20, 30% cost.

00:37:25.360 And you can still claim that citrulline malate is in it, even though it's not nearly enough

00:37:30.080 to actually get the benefits that you want.

00:37:31.840 So if something says proprietary blend, I typically tell people to run the other way.

00:37:36.040 Gotcha.

00:37:36.140 You want to see the transparency in the label, how much it has of everything in there.

00:37:39.740 Exactly.

00:37:40.580 Gotcha.

00:37:41.240 So there's whey protein, creatine, caffeine.

00:37:44.200 Are there any other supplements you think might have some benefit beyond those?

00:37:47.880 Oh, absolutely.

00:37:49.380 So, I mean, again, you have to look at creatine, caffeine, whey protein.

00:37:53.780 They're like the first tier of supplements, right?

00:37:56.780 But then you have things like betaine, which is also called trimethylglycine.

00:38:00.740 And that's been shown in some studies to increase lean mass, power output, and some other benefits.

00:38:06.500 And then you have things like carnitine, especially carnitine L-tartrate, which has been shown to improve recovery from lifting and increase androgen receptor density in muscle cells.

00:38:16.760 Now, whether or not that actually leads to more muscle mass, that's never been shown.

00:38:20.520 And then you have things like other recovery products like tart cherry extract, which has been shown to decrease the late onset muscle soreness and improve time to recovery for strength.

00:38:29.660 Ashwagandha is a supplement that I'm pretty bullish on.

00:38:34.840 There's quite a bit of research data showing that it's kind of an adaptogen in terms of like it reduces stress, may improve sleep, and has been shown to modestly increase testosterone.

00:38:47.980 And there are studies showing it to increase lean mass and strength.

00:38:50.980 So, again, that's another one.

00:38:52.840 I want to see more research on it because the research on it is pretty fresh.

00:38:57.040 But I'm pretty – based on what we've seen so far, I'm pretty bullish on it.

00:39:01.580 And then in terms of like pre-workout stuff, you know, we talked about citrulline malate.

00:39:07.620 Some other things I really like getting into the nootropics, which is like basically cognitive enhancers or things to enhance focus.

00:39:14.400 There's rhodiol rosea extract that's been shown to decrease fatigue and the perception of fatigue.

00:39:22.340 And there's some evidence that also – I believe it also increases the cognitive function like when looking at like time tasks.

00:39:29.580 And then L-DOPA, which basically can become dopamine.

00:39:33.660 It's a great addition to a pre-workout because the best way to describe it, at least in my experience, is you just feel good and like confident.

00:39:40.860 And so those are obviously some things we include in ours.

00:39:42.980 I realize I'm talking about ingredients that are in our supplements.

00:39:45.780 But of course, I'm going to include the ingredients that I think are really helpful.

00:39:50.780 And then, you know, another thing I've been getting bigger and bigger on is sleep.

00:39:54.620 There's a lot of research out there showing that if you get enough sleep, it's beneficial for not just lean mass but also reducing fat mass.

00:40:05.660 And there's a lot of research on melatonin.

00:40:08.720 And in fact, there's a research study, a randomized control trial, showing that melatonin actually increased lean mass in a study of resistance traders.

00:40:18.320 So that's very, very encouraging.

00:40:21.040 And obviously, melatonin can help with sleep.

00:40:22.980 But interestingly, the increase in lean mass appears to be beyond what you get from just improving sleep.

00:40:28.560 So it may be that melatonin actually has some kind of direct anabolic effect as well.

00:40:33.200 And then things like theanine, which is it helps with sleep, but it's actually more of like an anti-stress and reduces anxiety.

00:40:41.140 But it does reduce the time to fall asleep and has been shown to reduce insomnia.

00:40:46.980 And so, you know, those are some things I think are worthwhile because a lot of people could do with better sleep.

00:40:53.420 But then you've actually got to go through the process of, you know, not being on your phone screen right up, you know, before you go to bed and making sure that you're having good sleep hygiene overall.

00:41:02.660 You can't just take a supplement and expect, you know, just to miraculously fix everything.

00:41:06.380 And oh, by the way, you know, if you have to wake up at six and you're getting in bed at midnight, none of this stuff is going to help.

00:41:13.920 So I am pretty bullish on like the sleep supplements, especially for improving performance and lean mass.

00:41:19.520 But most people don't do the front end work that they need in order for those supplements to be really effective.

00:41:25.720 And also, we want to reiterate these supplements you listed.

00:41:27.580 Like that's like the second, like if you could do, first off, if you just take care of nutrition, sleep, exercise, just focus on that first.

00:41:36.000 After that, consider bringing in a whey protein if you need to.

00:41:39.400 Creatine would be great.

00:41:40.480 Caffeine has performance enhancing, it can help enhance performance, has other benefits.

00:41:44.720 And these other ones you listed, these are kind of like nice to have.

00:41:47.520 Like you don't necessarily.

00:41:48.220 It's like second tier stuff.

00:41:49.880 Yeah.

00:41:49.960 Yeah.

00:41:50.340 You don't need to do that.

00:41:51.320 So Lane, this has been a great conversation.

00:41:52.760 Where can people go to learn more about you and your work?

00:41:54.460 Yeah.

00:41:55.660 So if you go to, I think Instagram is my best business card.

00:41:58.860 You know, just go to Instagram and my screen name is BioLane.

00:42:02.640 And you can find me as BioLane on most social media, B-I-O-L-A-Y-N-E.

00:42:07.620 And my website, BioLane.com.

00:42:09.840 And you can find all the stuff that we do there.

00:42:12.200 And then if you're interested specifically in our supplements, Outwork Nutrition is our supplement company.

00:42:18.520 And you can go to OutworkNutrition.com and find all our products.

00:42:21.560 Fantastic.

00:42:21.920 Well, Lane Norton, thanks for your time.

00:42:22.760 It's been a pleasure.

00:42:23.200 Thank you, Brett.

00:42:24.880 I appreciate the time.

00:42:26.800 My guest today was Dr. Lane Norton.

00:42:28.200 You can find more information about his work at his website, BioLane.com.

00:42:31.380 Also check out our show notes at AOM.IS slash supplements, where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:42:43.720 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:42:46.600 Make sure to check out our website at ArtofManless.com.

00:42:48.740 Where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles where you've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of.

00:42:53.980 While you're there, make sure to sign up for our newsletter.

00:42:56.020 There's a weekly or daily option.

00:42:57.540 They're both free.

00:42:58.760 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on Stitcher Premium.

00:43:02.440 Head over to StitcherPremium.com.

00:43:03.940 Sign up.

00:43:04.240 Use code MANLIUS at checkout for a free month's trial.

00:43:06.640 Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android iOS, and you can start enjoying ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast.

00:43:11.780 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to go to your feed off of a podcast or Spotify.

00:43:15.620 It helps out a lot.

00:43:16.400 If you've done that already, thank you.

00:43:18.120 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think we get something out of it.

00:43:21.440 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:43:23.840 Until next time, I'm Brett McKay.

00:43:25.220 Remind you how to listen to the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - March 08, 2023

The Fitness Supplements That Actually Work

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript