The Art of Manliness - The Golden Rules of Success

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.740 you know michael phelps the most successful and decorated olympic swimmer of all time

00:00:15.360 won a record 28 medals 23 of which were gold well today meet the coach behind phelps's legendary

00:00:21.400 success bob bowman is an olympic swimming coach the head coach of the arizona state swim team

00:00:26.540 and the author of the golden rules 10 steps to world-class excellence in your life and work

00:00:31.500 today on the show bob shares what he calls the method a system of principles he's developed

00:00:36.380 over the years to coach his athletes to elite level success that can also be applied to setting

00:00:40.940 and achieving goals in every area of life we first talk about how bob ended up working with phelps

00:00:45.920 before turning to some of his golden rules we discuss developing a dream big vision and an

00:00:50.680 all-in attitude the importance of having a daily routine and what his own routine and the routine

00:00:55.180 of his swimmers was like the need to cultivate a passion outside your main pursuit and much more

00:00:59.380 after the show's over check out our show notes at aom.is golden rules

00:01:03.580 all right bob bowman welcome to the show thanks for having me brett so you were the coach behind

00:01:25.140 michael phelps's record-breaking olympic success you also coached a lot of other olympians you coached

00:01:30.540 the swim team for the americans and you credit part of your coaching success to a system of principles

00:01:36.380 you've developed over the years that you call the method and we're going to talk about some of these

00:01:40.680 principles today but before we do let's talk about your background a bit because i thought this is

00:01:44.080 interesting you share this in the book you didn't start off your career ambitions when you're a young

00:01:48.600 man thinking about what am i going to do with the rest of my life you weren't thinking about being a

00:01:53.240 coach you were thinking about you were studying to be an orchestral conductor like the guy who's with

00:01:59.720 the long hair you know going crazy in the tuxedo how did you go from conductor to swim coach well that's

00:02:06.980 a great question um i went to florida state university and throughout high school i was very active in

00:02:13.480 music and i was swimming and i studied a number of instruments and had some very good teachers and i ended

00:02:19.200 up going to florida state university school of music which is very highly ranked school and i was

00:02:24.480 swimming on the varsity swimming team and my intention was to be a conductor that's what i had always wanted

00:02:29.740 to be and i thought that i was suited for that and something i might be able to do and so i started my

00:02:35.880 program in music and i was on the swimming team and after a couple years i had to decide which one of

00:02:43.740 those was going to go because my life was becoming really crowded because the swim team practiced four

00:02:49.480 hours a day as a music major i was required to practice the piano four hours a day i had to go to

00:02:57.600 class a couple hours a day and go to 20 recitals and concerts a semester for the music part so there was

00:03:05.140 really not even time to like you know eat so i was coming to a point where it's like something's got

00:03:11.220 to give here and there were a couple of other things that sort of happened along the way that

00:03:16.340 sort of pushed me into the swimming direction i had started doing a little bit of coaching on the

00:03:20.720 side and really loved it but at the end of the day when i just kind of made the decision to go into

00:03:26.680 coaching and change my major to developmental psychology i just liked the people and the routines

00:03:33.320 of swimming better than i did the music and it's not that i don't love music but i just felt like

00:03:37.920 the things that we did in swimming and the atmosphere that we had with the group that was

00:03:43.180 training was just something that resonated with me more so i ended up going that direction i think

00:03:48.520 that's a good life lesson for any young people who are listening to this show when they're trying to

00:03:52.080 figure out what should i do i think it's good to have options when you're beginning and then as you

00:03:57.080 you'll reach a point like you did where you realize i can't do everything what's the one thing that

00:04:02.340 gives me the most satisfaction and then you go you lean into that so you started coaching

00:04:07.060 how did you end up working with michael phelps like when did that happen well after i graduated

00:04:12.720 from college i started working in swim clubs around the country and sort of moving around and

00:04:17.280 trying to learn things and move up and in 1996 i was hired at the north baltimore aquatic club

00:04:24.340 it's a very famous swimming club in the country had a long history of producing olympic gold medalists and

00:04:31.380 i was very fortunate to get a job there and after i had been there about a year

00:04:36.240 there was really a routine kind of reshuffling of the training groups and this hot shot 11 year old

00:04:43.700 michael phelps ended up in my group it was really rather random and you know i just wanted to

00:04:50.020 make sure because at that point i was an assistant coach and michael was just a kid and while everyone

00:04:56.900 knew he had ability it was almost certain that i wouldn't be coaching him when he was swimming for

00:05:02.240 an olympic medal so my goal with michael was to give him all the tools that he would need to be

00:05:06.900 one of the very best and so we just got to work and as it would turn out i ended up staying with him

00:05:14.180 and becoming the head coach and taking him to the olympics but you know that was much further down the

00:05:20.340 line in the beginning it was just kind of a random occurrence but was there a point when you

00:05:24.740 saw that this kid he has the potential to be an olympic champion did that happen oh day one

00:05:31.620 michael was already and he was a national record holder when he came to me right so he's the fastest

00:05:37.980 10 year old ever it's not like it was hard to see that part when i knew that he was something really

00:05:44.200 special was the very first practice that he ever did with me and the way that it had worked is that

00:05:50.100 michael even though he was 11 was in a group that i was coaching that was mainly 13 14 15 year olds

00:05:55.260 because the only way we could challenge him was to swim with older kids and when he was with the

00:06:00.600 younger kids he kind of misbehaved a lot so it was good to keep him moving as much as we could so what

00:06:06.300 happened was i i thought well okay here's the first practice i'm going to give them something really

00:06:11.060 tough so they'll know we're going to work hard and you know all that kind of bullshit really but

00:06:16.100 i was trying to make it you know make my statement and we did this very long practice

00:06:21.460 and it ended up with i won't bore you with specifics but it was four 100s on a minute anybody who

00:06:27.540 is in swimming knows that basically college age swimmers might be able to do that i mean on 105 and

00:06:33.400 he swam them on a minute which no 11 year old could ever do and i remember trying to make myself

00:06:41.140 seem not impressed so he wouldn't think that i was super excited about it

00:06:44.960 and i went home that night i couldn't sleep i was so excited i was like man this kid is like the real

00:06:49.920 deal and i better step up my game because he he's going to need a lot better coaching than i'm giving

00:06:55.360 him right now well so let's talk about some of these these rules you've developed the book's called the

00:06:59.460 golden rules the things you've developed throughout your career coaching and the first rule of this

00:07:05.100 method is a champion sets a dream big vision so when you're working with an athlete like take a

00:07:11.960 michael phelps or it could be another athlete they're young how do you help them develop their

00:07:17.460 vision like what do you do is there like a process you go through to help them figure that out there

00:07:21.720 is and and this one's easy you know your dream goal right your big vision that's when you sit down and

00:07:28.480 say when you sit down and think about the most fantastic thing you could do in swimming what would

00:07:34.940 it be and you know nine out of ten will say swim in the olympics right so it's it's a big goal and

00:07:41.620 it's very far away and it's very vague right we're not talking about how you're going to do that or

00:07:47.560 anything else we're just saying i want to swim in the olympics one day and you know michael's was um

00:07:53.320 well it kind of changed but when he started i have a goal sheet from michael when he was 11

00:07:58.860 where at the top of the page they had to write their dream goal and his was my dream goal is to

00:08:06.360 swim in the olympics and then there were other things under it but i turned the page over and

00:08:12.220 on the back he had actually written my dream goal is to win gold and he like crossed that out because

00:08:17.980 i think he thought at 11 years old it was too big a thing to say on his goal sheet but what your dream

00:08:23.320 goal is is the thing that motivates you to get out of bed in the morning when times get tough

00:08:28.160 it's all about motivation it's not really you know that specific but it's the emotional connection

00:08:34.360 to this process that keeps you going you know nobody wants to get out of bed and go to a cold

00:08:40.820 pool at five in the morning to finish their 200 free in 54 seconds but that's probably what it would

00:08:47.940 take to win a gold medal you know i mean it's like there there are some things that you can look at

00:08:51.820 that make the goals possible but the dream goal is what ignites the process and part of the i think a

00:08:58.060 good coach the first thing you are is an igniter my friend dan coyle would tell you that and how do

00:09:03.320 you know if your vision is achievable right you can say well i want to swim in the olympics or win

00:09:09.760 gold for michael phelps who was you know doing crazy stuff when he was 11 years old that's achievable

00:09:15.140 that's in the realm of possibility so how do you know like how do you base your vision like you talk

00:09:19.320 about you want to suspend belief but all at the same time base things you know somewhat reasonable

00:09:24.640 right i think you have good advisors right that's what my job is one of my most important jobs is to

00:09:31.140 help athletes set goals which are exciting and challenging but also doable right because if your

00:09:38.000 only goal is to set the go to the olympics right and that's your big goal and you don't have if you're

00:09:43.420 like me i could train all day long for the olympics and there is no way in a million years this body is

00:09:49.400 going to swim in the olympics it's just not happening right and there are a lot of people like

00:09:53.720 that very few people are on that level so it's my job to say well it's pretty cool to say out there

00:10:00.120 that you want to swim in the olympics so what are the steps along the way that are going to get us

00:10:04.100 there and which ones would we feel good about maybe your goal ends up being swimming the nc2a

00:10:09.360 championships along the way to your olympic dream maybe it's to win a high school championship so

00:10:14.820 there are a lot of stops along the way that are going to have to happen anyway and you can kind of

00:10:20.160 maybe get them to walk back from that a little bit to one of those goals as a coach did you have

00:10:26.540 visions big dream visions for yourself i had some and you know i i wanted to be i just have this thing

00:10:35.640 about trying to get the most out of myself and i want my athletes to get the most out of themselves

00:10:40.620 whatever that is and in swimming if you have you know if you're in it long enough and you get to

00:10:46.880 work with the right people getting the most out of yourself is breaking a world record or winning a

00:10:50.460 gold medal so for me that was sort of a standard that i wanted to hopefully be able to help athletes

00:10:56.200 achieve so that i had some goals yeah those are my goals coach swimmers to a world record yeah and

00:11:01.480 then we'll talk about this later on one of the rules is trying to figure out what you do after

00:11:04.700 right exactly and so your vision can change once you achieve the vision or maybe you realize

00:11:08.960 okay my initial vision didn't happen so i got to be able to adjust and come up something new

00:11:13.260 i will talk about that here in a bit but the next rule is adopt an all-in attitude not a get out one

00:11:19.780 so what do you mean by that i mean number one all in means you're completely engaged in what you're

00:11:29.140 doing and you're willing to make that commitment and get out means that you're not looking for things

00:11:35.240 that you exclude i tell my athletes i always give them this story because it's a good illustration of

00:11:41.580 how high performance works let's say that you're going to climb a huge mountain and you're at the

00:11:48.240 bottom of the mountain and you have this pack full of tools right and you're going to have to carry

00:11:53.920 them up to the top it's very easy in the early stages when things get hard to say i really don't need

00:12:02.120 this pickaxe and just kind of throw it and if i get rid of it it'll be a lot lighter now and i can

00:12:07.060 just it'll be good right so you kind of discard some of these tools to make your short-term journey

00:12:13.540 easier but then right when you're about to summit the mountain i need this pickaxe oh yeah i got rid

00:12:21.920 of that down at the bottom don't have it so you have to have the discipline and engagement to carry all

00:12:29.300 your tools with you and not eliminate things because it makes your short-term life easier

00:12:33.440 you want things that are going to make your short-term life harder and your long-term life

00:12:38.300 better and easier might not be easier but better right so i think that's what i'm talking about and

00:12:43.660 i think all in just means you're willing to stick with it when it gets hard because it will be hard

00:12:48.860 it will be frustrating there so much of michael's journey you know people just see the eight gold medals

00:12:55.820 or this all of the olympics that he swam in and those are wonderful moments but they don't see

00:13:02.260 all the days and weeks where we're you know just working beyond hard and frustrated and doubtful

00:13:11.840 will we get there is this even working are we sure this is going to do it uh what happens if you know

00:13:17.480 you have all these kind of doubts everybody has them but if you're committed to what you're doing

00:13:23.040 and you're committed to taking the next step it keeps you on the path that eventually allows you

00:13:27.760 to get there because the people that get there are the ones who can go through those kind of things

00:13:31.640 and you talk about that this all-in attitude it's not just an attitude you have to display the

00:13:36.840 attitude with action right yeah for sure it can't because a lot of people they love the motivation

00:13:41.020 stuff they watch the videos and they feel like oh yeah this is great and then they don't do

00:13:43.860 anything and that's that's not really all in and i love the story yeah you give the example of uh

00:13:48.860 yannick yeah he was from was he from france where is he yeah yeah yeah this french swimmer he like

00:13:53.960 just twitter dm'd you and said i want to swim with you and you're like uh whatever he just kind of blew

00:13:59.360 it off and then he emailed you and then you're like okay well i'll be in colorado springs at such and

00:14:04.240 such date if you want to meet let's meet and the guy flew from france on short notice to colorado

00:14:09.760 springs exactly use that example that's a guy who's who shows all in attitude he's serious about

00:14:14.900 it yeah so yeah that's what i'm talking about we're just all about you know your actions speak

00:14:20.640 louder than words like you know let your swimming do the talking and uh if you want to do something

00:14:26.920 speak less and act more we talk about that all the time you had this idea too in that the chapter

00:14:32.680 about an all-in attitude about avoiding people with negative enthusiasm yeah what's negative

00:14:39.700 enthusiasm somebody who really likes to complain all the time people that suck the life out of you

00:14:45.180 you know we don't allow that one of the things that i have come to learn and i'm sure you have and

00:14:50.400 anybody who's lived a little bit knows you know you get back to that you're the sum of the five people

00:14:56.840 you spend the most time with right and if those people that you're spending the time with are all in

00:15:04.520 in their pursuits and they are you know healthy and motivated and encouraging you're going to have

00:15:11.680 all that positive energy going for you if there are energy vampires and suck the energy out of you

00:15:17.900 and complainers you're going to become that so you have to be very careful who you choose to spend your

00:15:24.020 time with were there instances in your career as a coach where you had to boot people because they

00:15:29.160 have that negative enthusiasm yeah many times i don't want to name any specifics but many times

00:15:36.540 it's like john gordon right you have to have the right people on the bus and to do that sometimes some

00:15:42.280 people have to get off the bus not only do you have to get the right people on but you got to get

00:15:47.240 the wrong people off so i'm a big believer in that right it could be hard no one likes to fire people

00:15:55.100 or get rid of people not at all but you sometimes you have to do that for the good of the group for

00:15:59.880 sure yeah okay so dot an all-in attitude not a get out one the next rule is short-term goals lead

00:16:07.000 to long-term success and so this is all about breaking down that big vision into actionable

00:16:12.340 steps yeah and this is really interesting because you have a process this is very meticulous it's not

00:16:17.560 just sort of ethereal like you actually you break it down through how you develop this game plan for

00:16:23.020 each one of your athletes exactly so let's say an athlete's goal is to medal at the olympics right

00:16:28.880 how do you develop a game plan for that well what we're going to do is start at the end you know the

00:16:35.880 olympics are here this is the result that we want where are we now you know and it's usually four years

00:16:43.140 ahead we kind of do this right so you have four years and then we're going to start working backwards

00:16:48.020 to where we are and really when you're talking about years you can't be super specific four years

00:16:57.640 down the road right you can be very specific about what you're going to do this afternoon

00:17:01.740 so as you go from your end goal or your you know whatever that big goal is back towards where you are

00:17:08.880 now things become more and more specific and when you kind of zoom out looking towards that goal

00:17:14.460 they're more vague so you know the year before the two years before they don't get crystallized

00:17:20.020 until we're kind of closer to it but what you do is you set up benchmarks you said well if you want to

00:17:26.180 medal in that we know that the statistics say the people who medal in the olympics are in the top six

00:17:31.820 in the world top 10 at the slowest the year before so at the world championships before number one you

00:17:38.940 have to qualify and be in the top 10 in the world that would be almost a guarantee that it's going

00:17:44.460 to happen and then you'd work back the year before that and say well what what are the steps i have to

00:17:49.380 take right now i'm four seconds away or three seconds away from making that time how am i going to drop

00:17:56.100 three seconds in this 400 over the next two years and we say okay well we're going to have these

00:18:02.420 competitions where we're going to try to do it at the end of each season and within each season there are

00:18:07.740 going to be meets that lead up to that and at each one of those meets we're going to try parts of this

00:18:12.640 race to try to put it together maybe one's going to focus on breaststroke and one's going to focus

00:18:17.040 on backstroke and one's going to focus on another part of your race and one's going to you're going

00:18:21.120 to swim a lot of events and one you're only going to swim a few events that will kind of prepare you

00:18:25.340 for that intermediary step and then we're going to work even closer to where we are today and we're

00:18:31.500 going to say okay in the next three months we've got these meets coming up and these are the things

00:18:35.820 we'd like to change about your nutrition and these are the things that we want to do about sleep and

00:18:40.360 maybe help you do that better and we're going to work closer and closer and closer till you get to

00:18:46.420 the most important thing that's going to happen i call it the immediate goal and that's what are you

00:18:51.200 going to do right now right what are you going to do right now everybody has decisions to make all day

00:18:59.420 long and what we want our kids to do is walk in the door every day into that pool with the mindset

00:19:07.320 and the intention that they're going to get a tiny percent better at something and it doesn't have to

00:19:13.320 be you know maybe it's something that's easy to do maybe it's something that's difficult to do but

00:19:18.000 every day you leave that pool knowing you got a little bit closer to your goal and then you start

00:19:23.300 building momentum towards these intermediary goals and that ultimately builds the momentum to your big

00:19:28.400 goal down the road so that's how we would set it up so okay you start off from your big big goal

00:19:34.080 work backwards and you're going to get more granular as you get closer to the exactly and you know one of

00:19:39.460 the things that since i wrote this book it was 2016 right you know i'm i'm really big into like

00:19:45.100 Eckhart Tolle and the power of now is like really changed my life is one of the most important things

00:19:50.560 that i've read i've read it 10 times probably but you know being in the present moment is the most

00:19:57.040 important thing i think that any of us can do and that speaks to the what are you doing right now

00:20:02.680 i think once you have your game plan in place and you have your goals down the road

00:20:07.920 you have to then change your almost your entire focus to what do i do today to take today's step

00:20:15.840 and then you don't you know every now and then you look up and look down the road and say okay it seems

00:20:20.580 like we're on track seems like we're moving towards it but your key focus is on what you're doing right

00:20:25.780 now and what you're going to do today and what you're going to do tomorrow and one thing you do

00:20:30.660 too to keep this concrete for your athletes is you actually you print out a piece of paper for them

00:20:34.700 with these intermediate like here's your game plan for four years exactly here's your deal yeah i think

00:20:40.480 that's really useful don't just keep it ethereal yeah for sure and you know it's the kind of thing

00:20:45.340 where i look at like i have a i only do mine for a year because i have so many decisions to make

00:20:51.960 that i can like only process one year at a time but i have like the whole year's general plan on a

00:20:57.860 paper and i have it and i just kind of look at it every day and and i don't like in depth i just like

00:21:04.340 okay today we're here all right we still have this much time and it just by doing that it just sort of

00:21:11.220 stimulates some thought about something oh yeah i should probably start adding this in because i

00:21:15.380 want to be ready for something in two months you know you're just it just kind of helps you stay on

00:21:19.100 track well the other thing you did for yourself to keep you like when you were doing the olympic

00:21:23.840 coaching you had like a i think an app on your phone where you put in like a countdown to the days

00:21:28.560 until the olympics you said i got a thousand days to the olympics what am i going to do to help

00:21:32.740 these athletes get one step closer to their vision and that creates a sense of urgency on a day-to-day

00:21:37.480 basis definitely and you know at our we don't have one yet at asu i'm working on it we're outside in

00:21:43.440 the sun where everything gets killed uh but in michigan i had a big countdown where it counted

00:21:49.940 every day for the whole quad down to the olympics and when it started is all these days and people

00:21:54.700 like why did you put that up there i was like this thing will be gone before you know it and sure

00:21:58.560 enough like a week before the olympic trials they're like man you're right it's time flew so it just

00:22:03.360 kind of keeps you lets you know that uh time is fleeting right and this game plan is not set in

00:22:09.080 stone you adjust it as needed so maybe if an athlete yeah if an athlete gets injured maybe you have to

00:22:13.740 adjust things a bit but you maintain the game plan exactly it just kind of gives you a direction

00:22:18.640 and you know it lets you know if you're really far off track because you're going to be off track

00:22:23.920 a little bit and you just kind of gear it back towards where you want to be we're going to take a

00:22:28.520 quick break for your word from our sponsor is

00:22:33.360 and now back to the show uh so rule five is live the vision every day and this is all about

00:22:41.100 establishing routines yeah so how do routines help us live out our vision routines are i think

00:22:48.920 important for a number of reasons number one like i'll speak to myself i like to do daily routines

00:22:57.820 because they reduce the number of decisions i have to make you know it kind of automates some

00:23:04.320 things in my life and that allows me to use my real energy on the decisions that are important

00:23:09.300 i'll give you an example you know every day i get up at the same time my alarm is set at 4 10 but i get

00:23:15.220 up at four usually 3 56 it's kind of weird i don't know i'm always up at 3 56 i lay there for a

00:23:21.780 second get up i make my bed right away in the dark open the windows so that when i come back the sun's

00:23:29.280 coming in my room and i'll immediately go and i'll make a cup of coffee and i will read the day's

00:23:37.480 installment of the daily stoic which is very important to me i think i'm on my like third or

00:23:42.720 fourth time through it but it's a passage every day of stoic philosophy that just allows you to kind

00:23:47.880 of think about you know how you live your life and how you want to be and and that's my little

00:23:53.280 moment where i drink the cup of coffee read the daily stoic and just have it kind of a sets my

00:23:58.400 intentions and my sort of tone for the day and then i either go to the pool and coach practice

00:24:04.260 or i go and swim myself at another pool near my house and then that's done because exercise is

00:24:10.300 super important right i eat the same things most days and so by the time i get to like

00:24:16.720 nine o'clock i've already done a whole lot of things that have set me up to have a great day

00:24:23.100 and be the best person i can be i've exercised i've had some kind of healthy food i've fed my

00:24:28.300 brain a little bit with something that's good and then i can tackle the problems of the day that come up

00:24:34.080 and kind of be my best self doing it so i really like that for myself and i think anybody who gets

00:24:39.980 into that it's a good thing walk us through the routine for an elite level swimmer because it

00:24:46.600 it's pretty it's it's it's intense it's very intense so what they would do they're going to

00:24:53.300 get up relatively early like practice starts at six right in the morning they're probably up five

00:24:59.840 five fifteen they're going to have some sort of nutrition they're going to go to the pool and we're

00:25:05.980 going to have our training session that's probably you know an hour and a half to two hours depending on

00:25:11.460 the time of the year they are going to then probably eat a real meal pretty big breakfast

00:25:18.880 some days after that time they're going to be doing a strength training so they'll go in the gym for an

00:25:26.020 hour and do strength training which is pretty demanding and then they'll go home have another

00:25:31.860 meal they will probably nap and then they're going to come back for the main practice of the day which

00:25:37.460 is at two o'clock and that one is going to be a real challenge so by the time they're done with that

00:25:43.540 they're probably going to right after do some sort of recovery routines that they have you know there's

00:25:49.920 some stretching or some some like ice tubs and stuff like that cold tubs that they like to do right after

00:25:56.020 the swimming and then they're going to go home and they're going to eat again they eat a lot it's a big

00:26:01.480 part of their deal and somewhere interspersed in the day are going to be other things that they

00:26:06.800 might need to do like swimmers do dry needling they do things to keep their shoulders intact they might

00:26:11.760 do some kind of physical therapy because the demands are pretty great physically some might meet with a

00:26:17.300 psychologist a lot of our people do i think it's important and then they're in bed so it's a full day

00:26:24.000 of activity and it's very demanding and then you point out too for spectators when you watch swimming

00:26:31.780 it looks intense and exciting and yeah it is it really is but then you point out that for a swimmer

00:26:39.460 it is one of the most monotonous sports you could do because all you're doing is swimming you're

00:26:44.300 looking at a black line beneath you counting your strokes and you're doing that every day for years

00:26:50.420 so how do you help your athletes not get burnt out well that's a great point um you know i always

00:26:57.300 tell people it's like watching grass grow watching some of these practices right because they're just

00:27:00.940 going up and down a lot but what i tend to do is number one everything that we do in training has a

00:27:08.700 purpose it has a physiological or a technical purpose and i try to make that very clear to them

00:27:14.600 before we start so they know why we're doing it i think people get burnt out when they're doing this

00:27:19.680 stuff like what's the point of this right so at least they know what my thought about what the

00:27:24.100 purpose of it is so i think that's important and number two i try to focus them on specific things

00:27:30.200 that are unique to them that they should be working on while they are doing it like you know let's get

00:27:35.120 your right elbow up a little bit higher or you know focus on this turn in a certain way and that

00:27:40.660 gives it a little more meaning as well so i think that keeps them engaged and it also ties it to what

00:27:47.380 we're trying to do in the races which ultimately helps them achieve their goals okay okay so put

00:27:52.980 purpose behind the routine that's important yeah for sure yeah i think that that's a good point um do

00:27:58.080 you think someone's susceptibility to burnout and how readily they're able to bounce back from it

00:28:03.540 does it have anything to do with whether or not they've chosen the right goal to pursue

00:28:07.800 or the right area to work in yeah if you have somebody who is you know quote unquote burned out

00:28:14.380 a lot of times they either don't have goals that are reasonable and exciting they just don't feel

00:28:23.960 like it's worth doing or they've lost track of what their goals really are you know somewhere along the

00:28:30.780 line they've gotten distracted gotten off track you know and it's easier to get off track than you

00:28:37.120 think and i think a big part of a coach's role is to help keep people in contact with their goals

00:28:43.960 because you know fatigue makes cowards of us all right you get tired and say i just don't want

00:28:49.140 to do this and like well remember our goal is to win a medal in paris and to do that we're going

00:28:58.420 to have to fix this part of your race and this is how we're going to do it like okay i'll give my

00:29:03.260 give my best okay and and and you could kind of go back to the thing of i also think that what we

00:29:09.960 preach a lot is progress over perfection i think people who get burned out expect 100 perfection

00:29:20.300 and you just can almost never get it right but what you can get is progress and you know some days

00:29:26.680 you know we talk a lot about money in the bank they're like well that wasn't very good i was like

00:29:31.140 yeah well that's a few pennies in the bank we'll have it later some days you're putting 100 bucks in

00:29:36.060 the bank some days a thousand but you know try to every day put a little bit in there and you'll

00:29:41.660 get the compound interest down the road so i think a lot of it is how you frame it and in how they

00:29:47.580 sort of perceive you know what their efforts actually doing for them yeah this conversation

00:29:52.720 we've been having about making sure you have the right goal or remembering your goal it reminds me

00:29:56.980 of some research done by this guy daniel f chambliss he did a study on the nature of excellence

00:30:02.760 and he examined competitive swimmers great book he wanted to figure yeah he wanted to figure out why

00:30:07.600 why there's so so much stratification at the competitive level like why some swimmers became

00:30:12.400 olympians and others didn't and he found this his conclusion he said at the higher levels of

00:30:18.200 competitive swimming something like an inversion of attitude takes place the very features of the

00:30:23.760 sport which the c level swimmers finds unpleasant the top level swimmer enjoys what others see as boring

00:30:30.500 swimming back and forth over a black line for two hours say they find peaceful even meditative often

00:30:36.640 challenging or therapeutic they enjoyed hard practices look forward to difficult competitions

00:30:41.860 try to set difficult goals coming into the 5 30 a.m practice at mission viejo many of the swimmers

00:30:47.760 were lively laughing talking enjoying themselves perhaps appreciating the fact that most people would

00:30:53.080 positively hate doing it it is incorrect to believe that the top athletes suffer great sacrifices

00:30:58.300 to achieve their goals often they don't see what they do as sacrificial at all they like it does that

00:31:04.220 finding line up with your own observations as a coach a hundred percent i think dan chambliss

00:31:08.900 calls that the mundanity of excellence right i think that's like a chapter at the end of his book about

00:31:13.960 that and it's so true they find meaning in these things and you know you kind of go back to another quote

00:31:21.740 that we use with the kids it's like you know successful people are willing to make a habit of

00:31:28.120 doing things that unsuccessful people aren't willing to do and that's what these people do the high

00:31:33.460 performers make a habit of being uncomfortable they make a habit of getting up early they make a habit of

00:31:39.200 giving their best effort every day and the lesser performers will not do that maybe occasionally they do

00:31:45.360 it but usually they don't so i think there's a lot of truth to that statement and they don't make it a habit

00:31:50.320 because maybe they don't enjoy it like the swimming isn't a good fit for them we've had david epstein

00:31:54.720 on the podcast talking about his book range he had that great line he said what looks like grit

00:31:59.200 is often fit right they yeah the people who just seem like they're just like robots about whatever

00:32:04.460 pursuit they do it's not that they're overly they have discipline but it's not like they're not relying

00:32:09.540 only on that they just found the thing that fits what they're what they're meant to do like i think

00:32:14.780 michael phelps like michael you talk about michael phelps he loved practice and he would even practice on

00:32:20.320 christmas because he loved it so much and there's some athletes who they might have with some grit

00:32:25.820 and some discipline they could have done all right but they're never going to get to that

00:32:29.220 michael phelps level because it's maybe swimming at the elite level is not the good fit for them

00:32:34.700 exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean i i've noticed that in my own experience so i do power lifting

00:32:40.240 and it's a boring sport because all you do is just lift weight up and down every day it's and there's

00:32:45.500 no variation but i've been doing it for years and i haven't i've worked out on holidays i work out on

00:32:50.400 vacation and it's not because like i'm just super disciplined and gritty and i'm just whatever i just

00:32:55.640 i really enjoy power lifting i enjoy doing i couldn't imagine missing it right yeah exactly okay so

00:33:02.800 another rule is stay motivated for the long haul so this is sort of a continuation of talking about

00:33:08.680 warding off burnout i mean so your athletes they're pursuing goals that are perhaps years could be four

00:33:14.940 years out for some athletes it could be eight years out how do you keep them motivated throughout

00:33:19.900 that long duration you know you just find the intermediate thing so that almost every day

00:33:26.000 there's something that in practice that you can reward them for doing well so they're tiny little goals

00:33:32.480 micro goals uh within every session and you're like okay today when we're doing these hundreds free

00:33:39.480 i want you to try to hold 55 on everyone and see if you can really use a six beat kick through the whole set

00:33:46.200 and if they do that which may or may not be difficult for them you say awesome we're right where we want to be

00:33:54.340 moving on to the next stage they feel good about it they want to come back the next day they feel like

00:33:58.640 they got something out of practice so i think being engaged in practice and finding ways

00:34:03.780 to you know see progress in the very short term is the way that you keep it going for the long term

00:34:10.020 it's just you just add those up you just keep adding those little wins up and before long you've made some

00:34:15.240 big progress well another thing you encourage your athletes to do and you've done this in your own

00:34:19.660 life is developing a passion outside of your key passion yeah what does that look like and why is that

00:34:25.860 important well i think you know number one i don't if you want to be excellent at something

00:34:33.800 like what we do you're not going to be perfectly balanced right you can't be but in your life you

00:34:43.660 could be balanced right there you know when you're done swimming you're going to do a lot of other

00:34:47.440 things or maybe when there's a time where the training's not as much you can do some other things

00:34:50.960 and honestly when you are in the hard training you can still take your mind away to do something else

00:34:58.120 that kind of gives you a break from the never ending kind of what's at the pool so i encourage

00:35:03.960 everyone to have things that they're interested in that they love to do that are different from the

00:35:10.040 swimming and it just it's it's a complete break from that environment and i think that helps you

00:35:15.900 stay going for a long time too you know i have a lot of things i like to do i have a garden now i'm

00:35:21.540 kind of got into that a little bit i love to cook i cook for the family every sunday a big meal

00:35:26.480 so there are things that sort of take my mind away from the swimming and then when i go back to it i

00:35:31.660 feel a lot fresher and i think i encourage all of them to have something like that as well

00:35:36.040 well you were actually involved with horse racing uh you own some racehorses are you still doing

00:35:40.580 that you know i kind of got out of it got too expensive for me yeah but i was yeah i did that

00:35:47.080 that was awesome yeah that was one of your passions outside of your passion for sure yeah

00:35:51.040 yeah and you even talked about when you're out with the horses you know by taking your mind off

00:35:56.520 of swimming you would actually find yourself thinking about it but sort of indirectly and exactly

00:36:03.180 you'll just kind of get yeah you just kind of get a i think when you're in a different

00:36:08.880 environment instead of sitting in my office at the pool right or standing on a pool deck

00:36:12.980 you're thinking about something else primarily but in your brain things are kind of you're mulling

00:36:19.880 over things right and since for me most of my life is swimming it's kind of in there and they'll just

00:36:24.620 kind of surface and i'm like wow i got to make sure that i do that drill next week because that that

00:36:31.020 would really help someone get better on their backstroke so it i think that's a very important

00:36:37.620 thing is that when you quiet your brain and a lot of times when you're doing these things like i'm

00:36:42.520 out working in my garden or i'm cooking i find it super relaxing and then i'll just kind of get new

00:36:48.900 ideas about what is happening in the swimming so yeah that's very true and that's another thing that

00:36:53.880 help you avoid the burnout oh yeah for sure right yeah definitely so rule eight is adversity will make

00:36:59.740 you stronger and phelps had some very public adversity during his career how did those experiences

00:37:05.340 though turn him into a better athlete and eventually a better person well i think they

00:37:10.560 made him appreciate the swimming a little more you know the opportunity to do it and it just

00:37:15.860 i think it's all in how you approach it too it very easily could have broken him and we just decided

00:37:25.300 that when these very tough situations came up instead of just throwing our hands up and saying well

00:37:31.980 that's it we just took a step back took a breath and didn't do anything for a minute right let's just

00:37:40.020 think don't do anything and then as i always do come up with a plan and then just start taking one step

00:37:50.660 let's just take one step forward okay let's do another one that seemed to go okay let's take another

00:37:58.260 one one of the things that you know really was a big hurdle for michael was you know in 2007 at the

00:38:05.740 world championships he had had his best meet ever probably still is his best meet in many ways

00:38:10.000 in the world championships and he had won seven gold medals and he would have won eight but the

00:38:14.340 relay got dq'd in the morning he didn't get to swim on it and we came out of that and i was certain

00:38:20.420 that he was 100 on track for beijing to win eight gold medals and he was training beautifully in that

00:38:26.300 fall and then he actually slipped on the ice in michigan and broke his wrist in november i believe

00:38:33.840 no october october 7th i remember the date as a matter of fact and that was like a huge thing

00:38:40.000 like i remember going over to his apartment when i heard about it and he was sitting there basically

00:38:45.300 crying say i just gave up three gold medals it's all over now and i was kind of thinking that myself

00:38:51.300 i was like wow we're kind of screwed right but then i said okay here's what we're going to do

00:38:57.260 number one let's just take a breath and i'm going to talk to these doctors and we're going to figure

00:39:04.780 out what the options are and the options were two options number one being a cast for six weeks number

00:39:09.240 two have it repaired surgically with a plate and he'd be back in the water as soon as the stitch is

00:39:14.320 healed which is about 10 days so the next day he had surgery not to say the least right we're going to go

00:39:20.060 do that and what seemingly was like this impossible obstacle or something it was going to completely

00:39:27.140 crush what we're doing ended up not being that bad you know two weeks later he was back swimming

00:39:34.060 a month later he was back swimming well and then we just sort of continued on our way but it would

00:39:38.840 have been very easy to just say well it's all over now we can't do it we just decided to sort of stick

00:39:43.760 with it and just take it a step a step a step and work your way through it and i think that's an

00:39:48.520 important part of this yeah i think too uh maybe you do this with your athletes is it would say

00:39:53.800 they do get injured i think the focus and says that we're all is lost you got to think about what

00:39:57.440 what can we do exactly right yeah so you did that with michael okay we can get the surgery if surgery

00:40:01.960 is not an option you probably imagine you probably think well how can we adjust your training exactly

00:40:05.900 maybe you could just kick or do whatever you know there are things you can do a hundred percent

00:40:09.720 there are things you can do yeah i think that's a good never ask about what you can't do

00:40:13.520 think about what can you do exactly that's a good mindset and what do you tell an athlete who

00:40:18.120 you know they follow the game plan and then they go to the moment the event and they fall short

00:40:24.160 like what do you tell an athlete who's trained for years for the olympics and they don't even

00:40:28.280 medal like that's a big that's a big setback well if they made the olympics you're part of like

00:40:34.740 0.01 percent of people so you got that to fall back on that's a good when they don't make the

00:40:40.620 olympics is the hard one what i need them to know ahead of time is that the only thing that

00:40:47.460 really matters in this whole process is that you gave your full effort when it was required

00:40:55.080 because at the end of the day that's all any of us can do you know john wooden there's a great quote

00:41:00.760 from him all i'm asking you to do and all we can ever ask of anybody is to do the best you can

00:41:06.000 right some of us are going to do the best we can and not win a medal

00:41:10.880 but if you know you gave your best and you know you prepared the best way you could

00:41:16.340 that's the real value of this whole thing anyway and because you didn't get a certain outcome you

00:41:22.420 still have all of the amazing things that you put into that process so i think it's important ahead

00:41:27.760 of time that they know that they gave their best effort and that we're training so that they can give

00:41:33.440 their best effort when it's needed now if they don't give their best ever when it's needed they'll

00:41:37.620 just have to live with that right but in general i think you can coach them so that whatever happens

00:41:43.260 at the end they're going to be able to live with it so the next rule this is kind of related we were

00:41:49.620 just talking about rule nine is when the time comes perform with confidence so i'm curious as a coach

00:41:54.960 when you look at an athlete what causes them to not compete with confidence maybe they're doing great

00:42:01.960 all through practice maybe the smaller meets they're doing great but when they get to the big event

00:42:06.040 what causes athletes to choke it's generally a focus on the outcome versus the process

00:42:11.460 you know it's like kind of nick saban like don't look at the scoreboard play the next play

00:42:16.100 we control our process we control how we train we control the standards we hold ourselves to

00:42:22.420 in the pool out of the pool we control our strategy we control the way we compete in terms of

00:42:29.260 the energy we put into the races what we don't control is other people who have a big part in

00:42:34.220 the outcome right so what we have to do is focus on what we control and not worry about what other

00:42:41.100 people are going to do or what's going to happen if we don't get a certain time or win a certain

00:42:46.400 medal and i think people who choke that's what what has happened and if you looked at physiological

00:42:53.860 activation it would be a bell curve and over on the left hand side you'd have low physiological

00:43:00.740 activation and you'd have pretty low performance and then as physiological activation rises there's a

00:43:07.920 point at the peak where you're getting your maximum performance level and you're at an appropriate

00:43:13.560 physiological activation state as you continue to activate you get more into fight or flight

00:43:21.060 and performance decreases on the other side of the bell curve and the people who choke are over on

00:43:26.320 this right hand side so there are some things that i can do to help refocus them on their process goals

00:43:33.000 and we constantly try to keep them focused on how they're going to swim the race tune out the noise

00:43:40.700 focus on some specific thing to get the race started maybe have some key words that they tell

00:43:47.160 themselves at different parts of the race and focus their energies on the things that they control

00:43:52.780 namely that not what somebody two lanes over is doing or not what's going to happen if they don't

00:43:58.260 get this gold medal so i think that's how you combat it and it has to happen well in advance and still

00:44:04.940 sometimes it doesn't work you talk about this experience with uh michael where you started focusing on

00:44:10.240 the process so i think it was the london olympics came back it was the medley yeah and uh they placed

00:44:15.620 fourth that was like the first time he'd never medaled in eight years basically it was terrible

00:44:19.840 yeah and you know he was just like that sucked it's awful and like i i didn't train enough blah blah

00:44:26.160 blah and you're like yeah you didn't train the way you're supposed to but what we're going to do now

00:44:30.120 is we're going to focus on we can improve your breaststroke for the next event exactly you got

00:44:33.420 you got detailed you focus on the process yeah and it worked out he won the 200 im swam really well

00:44:39.620 he actually finished that up pretty well and i think any time you can take their attention to

00:44:44.940 something like that it's going to be good for them because everybody's going to be excited

00:44:50.320 at in the competition right there's already the level of excitement there's very few people i've

00:44:55.460 ever coached that i had to raise their activation state during a meet you're usually trying to lower

00:45:02.000 it or you're trying to get them to stay relaxed so that they can get up on the block and do what

00:45:06.940 they're trained to do so yeah i think keeping it specific is very important all right the rule 10 is

00:45:12.400 celebrate your achievement then decide what's next and i i think people may have heard that

00:45:17.220 olympic champions often experience post-victory depression or they just feel blah after they

00:45:23.200 notch an achievement which you think is counterintuitive like you did the greatest thing

00:45:26.360 that an athlete can do and you're depressed what's going on have you seen that with your athletes yeah

00:45:30.300 i've seen it with michael right every time every time he's had an issue it's kind of after the

00:45:35.260 olympics and it's you know there are a number of reasons that go into that but i think the main thing

00:45:40.780 is the nature of olympic preparation or preparing for you know any kind of sports main event

00:45:50.820 is that we don't look beyond you look at where you are right now right so your whole focus is on

00:45:59.180 the training today it's on what you're eating it's on how you're sleeping it's on how you're going to

00:46:04.140 fix your hurt shoulder it's on everything that we're doing and there's a lot of stuff and it fills up

00:46:09.080 your whole life and we don't want to be thinking about what we're doing after the olympics because

00:46:14.180 we want our focus to be on the process that we're on right so what happens is they go through this

00:46:22.020 process they go to the olympics there's an amazing result and then the day after there's no more

00:46:28.000 training there's no more what am i doing today you have all this time and you haven't figured out how

00:46:35.520 to spend it and you you kind of miss that knowing what you're going to do every day and i think that

00:46:42.080 leads a lot to it right and the thing maybe you just had you achieved your life goal and you're like

00:46:46.700 well what's next i don't have any idea i think that was michael's thing and to my detriment along the line

00:46:56.580 i didn't help him think what might happen after eight gold medals in beijing

00:47:00.940 because we didn't i couldn't see past it it's the only thing i thought about was how i could get him

00:47:06.120 ready for that i couldn't even see past the day after so once he achieved it both of us were like

00:47:12.940 well what do we do now and that's a big void so yeah you see it all the time and i think that what

00:47:20.920 we have to do is well in advance of these events start helping them figure out what their game plan is

00:47:27.340 going to be beyond those so that there's like a natural transition after and there's something

00:47:33.000 they can work towards and personally how has your vision changed over the years um you're still an

00:47:38.480 olympic coach and i imagine each new swimmer you coach you know it feels like a new experience a new

00:47:43.100 goal but how else have you found new goals to work on and you know fresh motivation after your huge

00:47:48.000 success with phelps um what i've done is i knew that when michael was finished and that was in 2016

00:47:56.800 i was too young to really retire you know i was like 51 and i wanted to do something different and

00:48:05.080 i hadn't really done a lot of ncaa coaching so i took over the program at asu and started building it

00:48:09.820 up and asu the program was really kind of in disarray but i felt like it had good resources and so

00:48:16.360 since 2016 i've been building this thing up so last week we got second ncaa championships we're almost

00:48:23.860 there we're almost about to win so for me that's a new and exciting challenge and we're still uh you

00:48:31.320 know working on the olympics we got a lot of great people now we have a lot of olympic firepower for the

00:48:37.000 next one so i just kind of try to use all the knowledge that i had in the first phase in the second

00:48:42.720 phase to uh help these guys succeed what do you do with someone like michael phelps right they hit a

00:48:48.160 really big achievement what do you do after that like what's the next thing you work on it's like

00:48:52.580 someone who walks on the moon like i walked on the moon what do you do after you walk on the moon like

00:48:56.840 what do you do after you you hit the record for the most gold medals one well we tried to it was hard

00:49:03.580 and in reality michael didn't do a best time in any of his events after beijing and he swam two

00:49:11.540 more olympics right so it's kind of hard to keep going but what kept us going were number one we kind

00:49:18.580 of wanted to keep adding to the gold medal total right and the medal total so michael has 23 gold

00:49:24.560 medals second place is nine right right so i think he's safe for a long time i think we'll be gone before

00:49:31.400 somebody else you know probably gets to that level so you try to find another goal that just

00:49:35.940 sort of keeps him motivated because it was his job right for michael unlike other swimmers who's making

00:49:41.440 a significant amount of money so we wanted to keep it going he couldn't just quit after beijing it was

00:49:45.720 you know there was he was too young like me and we wanted to kind of keep it going for a while so

00:49:50.920 we just found other ways to uh motivate him and honestly the best one was i think we did a terrible job

00:49:59.500 of dealing with the time between beijing and london because we just came back and i just tried

00:50:04.360 to put him back in the same program we did before beijing and both of us knew there's no way in hell

00:50:09.300 he's going to win eight gold medals again it just doesn't happen right so we fought about how he was

00:50:15.040 going to do it he didn't come to practice a lot he wasn't that prepared i just doubled down on your

00:50:20.160 throwing away your life by not coming to practice it was the worst thing i could do right

00:50:24.320 but after london when he took a year off because he thought he was going to retire and i took a year

00:50:30.800 off he kind of decided he wanted to come back and i said okay if we do it this time we're going to do

00:50:35.760 it the right way and i want you to end up your career loving swimming and he did that was by far

00:50:42.820 our best thing was in rio he absolutely loved swimming again like he did when he was 12 regardless

00:50:50.180 of whether he broke a record and he did win the gold medals that we wanted right but it was just

00:50:55.120 a fantastic way for him to kind of come tie it up but we just sort of shifted our focus to that

00:51:00.000 like our main focus is that you enjoy this process and that you put your best effort into it because

00:51:05.540 you love it and then you just love the racing at the end and then leave the sport kind of in love

00:51:10.860 with it and move on to your next phase and i think that was quite successful what's his next phase

00:51:16.660 what's he doing now he does a lot of work with his foundation michael phelps foundation which

00:51:20.700 teaches healthy lifestyles and water safety to kids he's still doing a lot of appearances and

00:51:25.980 endorsements and things like that so he stays busy quite you know he's always busy and it seems like

00:51:32.360 this is great advice this is something someone has to think about when they're hit midlife or maybe

00:51:37.580 retirement right you achieve the thing you wanted to achieve you got to figure out what's next it might

00:51:42.240 not be you're not going to win gold medals exactly not going to have that yeah but it could you can

00:51:47.360 find satisfaction and maybe mentoring or doing things behind the scenes or coaching or things

00:51:52.360 like 100 yeah for sure yeah well bob this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn

00:51:58.000 more about the book and your work my social media is at coach underscore bowman on instagram and twitter

00:52:04.140 you can email me if you need to at bob.bowman at asu.edu that would be a good way to do it and

00:52:11.280 the books on amazon audible all of those things fantastic well bob bowman thanks for your time

00:52:15.700 it's been a pleasure thanks brett really appreciate it my guest there is bob bowman he's the author of

00:52:20.720 the book the golden rules it's available at amazon.com check out our show notes at aom.is

00:52:25.120 golden rules we find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:52:28.820 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

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00:52:59.180 done so already i'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on apple podcast or

00:53:01.980 spotify helps that a lot and if you've done that already thank you please consider sharing the show

00:53:06.320 with a friend or family member who you think would get something out of it as always thank you for the

00:53:10.040 continued support until next time's brett mckay remind you don't listen to aom podcast but put what

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00:53:15.660 you

The Art of Manliness - April 12, 2023

The Golden Rules of Success

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