The Art of Manliness - The Harrowing Life of a World War II B-17 Pilot

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast we were young

00:00:11.740 citizen soldiers terribly naive and gullible about what we would be confronted with in the 1.00

00:00:16.160 air war over europe and the profound effect it would have on every fiber of our being for the

00:00:20.680 rest of our lives we were all afraid but was beyond our power to quit we volunteered for the

00:00:25.360 service and once trained in overseas felt we had no choice but to fill the mission assigned

00:00:29.820 my hope is that this book honors the men with whom i served by telling the truth about what it took to

00:00:34.460 climb into the cold blue and fight for our lives over and over again so writes the 100 year old

00:00:40.320 world war ii veteran john lucky luckadoo in the new book he co-authored with kevin mauer damn lucky

00:00:45.280 one man's courage during the bloodiest military campaign in aviation history kevin is my guest

00:00:50.040 today and we'll share lucky's story and with it the story of world war ii's famous b-17 bomber

00:00:54.980 during the war airmen and the 100th bomb group can finish their combat service and return home

00:00:59.500 after flying 25 missions yet with the one intense chance of becoming a casualty few were able to

00:01:04.200 reach this milestone lucky was one of the well lucky few who did and kevin traces how he got there

00:01:09.240 from trying to join the royal canadian air force as a teenager to learning to fly the b-17 on the

00:01:13.680 job to his harrowing daylight bombing missions over germany to the life he made for himself after the

00:01:18.060 war along the way kevin describes the brutal conditions inside a b-17 and the bomber's role in

00:01:22.960 winning the war after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is b-17

00:01:27.260 all right kevin mauer welcome to the show hey thanks so much for having me i appreciate it so

00:01:45.520 you got a new book out it is called damn lucky one man's courage during the bloodiest military

00:01:50.420 campaign in aviation history and this is a story about a world war ii bomber pilot named john

00:01:56.740 lucky luckadoo where did you learn about john luckadoo and his story and how did you come to

00:02:01.720 come to meet him it's funny i i got the idea when i read a q a that he did for the military times

00:02:08.540 and when i was finished with it i went looking on amazon for his book and when i didn't find it

00:02:13.380 i tracked him down and called him up and asked him if he'd be interested if i wrote a book about him

00:02:17.520 because i just found the q a to be fascinating and i knew there was a really good story there

00:02:21.540 and so it was just that rare chance you know you get a guy like john luckadoo with that name i mean

00:02:26.900 if i invented that name you know you nobody would believe me so lucky luckadoo bomber pilot who

00:02:33.340 survives 25 missions i just thought it was a really great book plus he was he's alive and he was and he

00:02:38.220 was willing to sit down and do interviews with me so you know it was that rare rare gem that rare gold

00:02:43.700 that you find when you're digging around looking for book book ideas yeah and these are becoming

00:02:47.680 fewer and far between because these world war ii veterans they're dying they're not they're not 0.89

00:02:51.760 around that much longer and they're not and also i'm running into a little bit where you know some

00:02:57.000 of the guys you know maybe their memory isn't as sharp as it used to be and so to get a guy like

00:03:02.200 john luckadoo who uh still drives a hundred year old guy still driving you know still living on his own

00:03:08.440 in a retirement community but living by himself i mean it's it was an amazing find and we really

00:03:13.900 started the book right when covet hit so i think it'd be for both of us it became sort of a lifeline

00:03:19.100 something we could go back to every day knowing that we would be working on this together all right

00:03:23.380 so we're gonna get into john's story but this story is not just a story about john this book it's

00:03:27.620 about the story of the b-17 and its rise to prominence in world war ii for those who aren't

00:03:33.280 familiar like what was the bomber's origin and how did it differ from other military planes before it

00:03:37.940 i mean to me the the b-17 sort of comes out of this idea and for those of you who've read

00:03:43.240 malcolm gladwell's book the bomber mafia you'll you'll know a lot of this but it comes from this

00:03:47.080 idea where you know the this these fledgling air forces were trying to figure out where they fit

00:03:52.160 into the bigger picture of war and and one of their arguments was that precision bombing if done

00:03:57.600 correctly could you know cripple an enemy and and the b-17 was an offshoot of that in creating a

00:04:02.660 precision heavy bomber that could deliver a payload with the idea that you could you could

00:04:07.740 bomb your enemy into submission and bomb them into surrendering and try to save lives that you

00:04:13.320 know because they were coming out of world war one where they saw the carnage and i think this gave

00:04:17.500 them you know this this was the new idea of like we could save lives if we could we could do it with

00:04:22.100 less less men and we don't have to get into trench warfare and it started developing before the u.s

00:04:27.760 got into world war ii i guess it was like in the late 30s they started pumping these things out

00:04:31.300 correct right about the mid 30s and what's funny is when you think about the b-17 it's looked at as

00:04:36.920 this so-called a signature bomber of world war ii but when you get to the end of world war ii it's

00:04:41.400 it's obsolete you got the b-29 by the end and the b-29 is the one that drops the the two atomic bombs

00:04:47.200 it's also you know larger payload can fly farther and it's pressurized you know the b-17 wasn't

00:04:53.060 pressurized so these guys were flying in the elements you know at 25 30 000 feet yeah let's talk

00:04:57.660 about like what was give us an idea of what it was like in a bomber because i don't think people

00:05:00.540 really have an idea about this because you know when you watch war movies about world war ii it's

00:05:04.100 usually about infantry on the ground i think the only movie i remember about a bomber is like you

00:05:08.460 know the memphis bell but give us an idea like what was it like how strenuous was it to be up there

00:05:13.540 it's it's kind of crazy and i and i i sort of learned this when i was doing the research because i sort of

00:05:19.120 had the same idea you know we all see memphis bell those guys are chatting away you know they're

00:05:23.620 they're sipping soup they're they're wearing their you know they're crushed kind of you know uniform

00:05:29.440 hats in reality you know this was 40 below zero if your open skin touched anything it was sticking

00:05:36.380 to the metal you know there were gunners who had their you know fingers amputated or lost fingers

00:05:41.020 because you know they got stuck to the metal you can't breathe because you know you need oxygen

00:05:46.680 i mean to me it's the most dangerous battlefield in the in the war because unlike anywhere else you

00:05:53.540 know the battlefield will kill you faster than the germans will because you can't breathe you can't fly 1.00

00:05:57.900 and it's too cold to survive so these guys are bundled up in leather jackets ballistic helmets

00:06:02.680 their faces are covered by oxygen masks and uh and it's just a brutal slog for hours in negative 40

00:06:09.720 degree temperature so the cold takes a toll and lucky i think does a really nice job describing just

00:06:15.520 how much the cold took it out of them and sapped them of their energy and how it impacted these crews

00:06:21.240 as they fought their way you know to the target and then fought their way back yeah there's a couple

00:06:25.700 like they would get pilots would get frostbite i think lucky actually had a bit of frostbite right

00:06:29.900 he did one incident that it cracked the plexiglass on the nose of the aircraft and it for some reason

00:06:35.900 the crack set a jet stream right to his feet and his feet froze to the pedals okay let's give us a

00:06:41.540 how many were on a crew in a typical b-17 so it's interesting it's 10 guys so you have 10 guys

00:06:48.740 four of them are officers the two pilots are officers the bombardier and the navigator the radio

00:06:54.680 operator and all the gunners are all enlisted so it's it so it's a crew of 10 the aircraft carries

00:07:01.640 between 11 and 13 machine guns depending on the variation it can carry about 9 000 8 to 9 000 pounds

00:07:07.340 of bombs it's a massive aircraft i don't know if you haven't seen one you know it's got 103 foot

00:07:12.800 wingspan it's 74 inches long and that back tail is like a giant shark fin so it's an impressive

00:07:18.820 aircraft there's a great quote i don't remember if you recall that there's a great quote from one

00:07:22.680 of the luthwafa guys talking about turning in on a whole formation of bombers where he says you know

00:07:28.220 when you're fighting against the russians or you're fighting against spitfires or the british

00:07:32.140 it can be kind of fun when they're shooting you down he said but he says when you turn in on a

00:07:36.480 on a squadron of b-17s all your sins flash in front of your eyes well yeah give us an idea so that was

00:07:42.220 an important part of the bomber like these things they flew in a formation in a squadron like how

00:07:46.020 many were in a typical formation so on the big missions you know you're talking about two three

00:07:52.300 hundred bombers you know flying so it you know the the actual formation goes for for miles and the

00:07:58.740 contrails you know create like this perfect path so if you're standing on the ground in germany when

00:08:03.660 one of these these air armadas flies over you i mean it's it's going to take you know several

00:08:07.660 minutes to to a half hour for them to fly completely over you and there's you're looking

00:08:12.260 at 200 300 aircraft and tight formations you know that are it what did they the germans called it a

00:08:19.200 herd or a porcupine because of just how big they were but also how they were all the planes were

00:08:24.600 bristling with guns so you you have overlapping fields of fire so to try to fly through you know

00:08:30.100 miles of of b-17s all all who can shoot at you from every direction is is uh is pretty daunting

00:08:37.360 and that's the other important part that i learned about the b-17s it was important that they flew in

00:08:41.820 this formation for one is you know they allowed them to you know deliver their bombs and just kind

00:08:45.600 of like a carpet right of bombs but also it was just for their safety it was kind of like a family

00:08:49.900 like a a greek phalanx like it protected them as well that's that's a perfect analogy i've actually

00:08:56.060 wish i you had said that when i was writing this thing because i would have been perfect yeah that's

00:08:59.900 exactly what it is i mean they they survived because of mutual defense which is why the german tactics

00:09:05.560 were really around trying to break up those squadrons and push them so that you there were individuals and

00:09:11.720 then you could attack them individually and usually the at that point the fighters would win almost every

00:09:15.940 time when the americans joined the war and they brought in introduced the b-17 and they brought in 0.92

00:09:22.380 this idea of precision bombing their approach was different from what the british were doing

00:09:27.840 and in that the americans they did day runs and the british they typically bombed at night why did the

00:09:34.160 americans decide to do day runs when that made them you know more visible and vulnerable to enemy fighters

00:09:39.800 i mean i i think the the simple we were we were naive and arrogant and i think we wanted to prove that

00:09:48.060 precision daylight bombing was possible particularly because we were leading on a on a piece of

00:09:52.900 equipment called the norden bomb site which i think was advertised as being much more accurate than it

00:09:58.620 really was but i think you know the british you know the british spent their nights bombing germany and

00:10:03.860 the germans vowed never to let berlin be bombed during the day and i think american hubris got in our way

00:10:09.440 and it cost us a lot of lives i mean this was you know it was suicidal we we won we win the war over

00:10:16.800 germany not because somehow our tactics were so much better but because we could just produce guys we

00:10:23.060 outproduced the germans and these guys go up there and the beginning especially in the time when lucky 1.00

00:10:28.020 is up there and these are suicide missions you get past 10 missions and you're you're on borrowed time

00:10:32.400 so i think that initial that initial hubris and that initial tactic of daylight precision bombing i think was

00:10:38.960 it was folly i mean a lot of guys i think their lives would have been saved if they if the americans

00:10:43.900 had followed the british suit and taken the b-17s and flown the same kind of night missions well give

00:10:48.200 us an idea of the survival rate of men on a b-17 bomber well i mean the survival rate is is crazy it's

00:10:55.840 you know you're looking at so the statistics are basically on a heavy bomber mission crew in europe

00:11:02.320 you're one in ten so at a 25 mission that's why the 25 mission tour duty was there so because

00:11:08.500 statistically you get past 10 missions and you're on borrowed time you're not supposed to get past

00:11:13.020 10 missions and the war in over europe claims 26 000 men from the eighth air force alone

00:11:17.920 um that's not total and total fatalities by the war's end is 47 000 airmen out of 115 000 you know

00:11:26.220 died because in the eighth air force and i think a lot of that leads back to daylight precision bombing

00:11:31.380 in early 43 when the german luftwaffe was a seasoned professional outfit who had been fighting for

00:11:39.000 years going against americans who none of them had any combat experience and so those kind of those

00:11:44.440 heavy losses i think come because of that but as you see as the war progresses and as the luftwaffe

00:11:49.740 continue to get continues to get you know worn down and you look at the americans and they're you know

00:11:55.500 for as as much as the tactics are terrible for the crews it starts to work and they're able to overwhelm

00:12:01.580 the luftwaffe and overwhelm germany and and you know basically you know bomb them into into submission so

00:12:06.760 that when you get into later the wars they up that 25 mission benchmark to 30 and beyond because the

00:12:13.860 luftwaffe just doesn't have the ability to shoot them down like they did in 43 all right because so 0.99

00:12:17.800 being on b17 bomber incredibly strenuous you're probably gonna get frostbite it's not pressurized you had

00:12:23.620 to have oxygen on you couldn't breathe up there you're doing this in the daylight so you're just

00:12:27.720 easy pickings and the chances are if you decided to sign up and be on a b17 crew you're probably

00:12:33.120 gonna die so let's bring lucky into this story uh john luckadoo the war breaks out in europe even

00:12:39.420 before america had officially joined lucky and his buddy they they try to get in the action by way of

00:12:46.220 canada what's the story there why were they so gung-ho on trying to get into uh into the war you know this

00:12:52.400 is one of my favorite parts of the story his relationship with his with his buddy sully they

00:12:56.500 did they decide before america even gets into world war ii that they want to they want to go up to

00:13:01.500 to canada and join the royal canadian air force because they they're pretty sure war is coming

00:13:05.880 you know i think everybody was you know was clued in a little bit and they were clued in on

00:13:10.420 at some point they just felt like the americans were gonna gonna get involved in this and and i honestly

00:13:15.280 think lucky and and uh and sully just didn't i mean they weren't great students uh they were fraternity

00:13:21.220 brothers and i think that they had a little bit of wanderlust and a little bit of adventure and i

00:13:25.340 think they saw an opportunity join the royal canadian air force get the flight training maybe

00:13:30.400 see some combat and then when the americans get in they could take that transfer over to the american

00:13:35.300 air corps and already have all their training and get right into it so a little bit is that you know

00:13:39.920 that old you know male see a chance to go do test yourself you know prove yourself but also do do a

00:13:46.900 little service and stuff so i mean that's where it starts and and how it how it ends i think is is

00:13:51.800 is also pretty i think people relate to uh going to have to tell your parents and ask them to do this

00:13:56.300 well yeah because you had to get permission from your parents right because they were too young

00:13:59.940 at the time exactly so uh what's interesting is sully is an only child you know his mother was a widow

00:14:07.320 his father died because of injuries that he has sustained in world war one fighting the germans so 1.00

00:14:12.640 it's interesting that when they go to sully's house you know his mother is willing to sign off

00:14:17.220 on this uh on this adventure and he you know he eventually goes while you know lucky's father who

00:14:22.920 lucky's father thinks he's insane and tells him he's not going to sign off on it and to go back to

00:14:27.780 school and so that's where they separate but you know what's crazy is that they end up you know

00:14:33.100 circling back together and i think i didn't realize it when i started the book but sully becomes an

00:14:38.540 interesting and important character and i think he tells a part of the story that you know needs to

00:14:44.620 be told but also wouldn't have been told if i just stayed with lucky the whole way yeah that how his

00:14:49.580 dad's objection this kind of brought home to this idea i think typically when we think back to world

00:14:54.080 war ii we think oh everyone was into it like all americans like yes this is a the good war we're gonna

00:14:58.580 go fight it but at the beginning of the war a lot of americans are like why are we getting involved in

00:15:03.300 this this is not our war we shouldn't we don't have any business that was kind of lucky's dad 0.93

00:15:07.260 he's like this isn't our war you don't you shouldn't be doing this is dumb go go back to

00:15:11.160 college exactly and i think one of the things that lucky and i talked a lot about when we were doing

00:15:17.160 this book is is how to dispel some of the myths around world war ii and i and i think that's one

00:15:21.840 of them for sure is that there was a you know a universal you know universal support like we think

00:15:26.900 about it now okay so lucky had to wait a bit to join up and he joins up finally in college and he still

00:15:35.020 he was gung-ho he wanted to be a pilot when he signed up like what what plane did he initially

00:15:40.520 learn to fly on he learns basically like everybody he learns with some trainers and it's

00:15:45.320 the voltee and so he's in south carolina and he he just can't seem to get he can't seem to get it the

00:15:51.280 instructor he has is from west point who isn't helping him and isn't isn't a very good instructor

00:15:55.400 and he's he's he thinks he's going to wash out and so he ends up meeting with a one of the

00:15:59.480 civilian instructors who teaches him i think in one mission exactly all the things he needed to

00:16:04.060 know and he's able to stay in but it's a it's a it's a tricky plane to fly and it's one of those

00:16:10.140 where he started with a kind of a biplane and learned the basics of flying and this was the next

00:16:14.780 step up where they had to work the radios and work the flaps and and all this other stuff yeah

00:16:19.220 yeah so he's about to wash out like he had to like make so many landings and he wasn't he wasn't

00:16:24.640 doing it and this guy uh was blackman blackie kind of saved the day for him right which it's crazy

00:16:31.600 black blackie is this cool civilian pilot right who's got all the hours and uh he seems to have 0.76

00:16:36.880 that that feel and he's able to kind of teach lucky how to be a pilot so lucky he'd had no plans of

00:16:44.040 flying the b-17 but somehow he ends up with the 100th bomb group which flies b-17 it's like how did

00:16:50.700 that happen well no one i don't think i think everybody think of how many people you know who

00:16:56.960 wanted to become pilots nobody really wants to be a bomber pilot right they all want to be fighter

00:17:01.040 pilots because that's that's where the that's the sexy job but uh you know lucky ran into what i think 1.00

00:17:06.780 every veteran will will will relate to which is you know it's the needs of the air force needs of the

00:17:12.060 army and so he sent to the 100th bomb group and at that point the you know the 100th bomb group was

00:17:17.220 prepared to get ready they were getting ready to deploy over to england when they they botched

00:17:22.220 their final exam uh and so they they end up having to reorganize and part of that reorganization

00:17:28.000 is the 100th bomb group pulls all their co-pilots because at that point because of the training the

00:17:33.520 co-pilots had so many hours in the seat that they were they were as good as some of the the senior

00:17:39.640 pilots and other squadrons so they pull all the co-pilots and put lucky's newly trained

00:17:45.380 you know cohort of uh of new pilots into the co-pilot seat and what's crazy is you know lucky

00:17:52.180 never flown a b-17 he'd never flown a plane with more than two engines and he gets to the 100th

00:17:57.660 bomb group and he gets to his squadron and he has got zero hours in the b-17 and learns on the job as

00:18:03.100 they do their final prep before they deploy well this happened to a lot of people like this wasn't

00:18:07.960 just unique to lucky like a lot of these i mean here's another thing like how old was lucky at this

00:18:11.780 point he was uh 20 all right i always okay i always forget how young these guys were you know

00:18:18.940 like there's 20 year olds flying b-17 bombers or you know in a tank uh and i it's just it always

00:18:25.820 blows my mind as you look at 20 year olds today it's like i don't know if i would trust a 20 year

00:18:29.720 old to to do that but here we were it's like all right you never flew b-17 you'll learn you'll be

00:18:35.160 all right you can you can do it well i think if you were 24 they called you an old man in the

00:18:41.860 squadron wow yeah all right so 20 year old never flew a b-17 he had to learn on the job but the squad

00:18:49.340 that he was initially assigned to they weren't pretty they weren't very receptive to him i guess

00:18:53.440 it was that that whole shake-up thing he was just kind of thrown into this group that had already

00:18:56.660 had formed a bond and like lucky was the kind of the third wheel right yes absolutely and so it's

00:19:03.120 interesting you know a lot of these guys kind of knew what they were getting into they had no

00:19:07.260 combat experience but the they were a tight crew and i think lucky was looked at as a jinx

00:19:13.000 it just wasn't you know for lack of better words it wasn't lucky to have him and i think some crews

00:19:18.660 embraced it and they and they got you know they were able to train together and they they built that

00:19:23.340 cohesion again with the new pilot but lucky's crew didn't yeah a lot of hazing going on i mean it

00:19:28.580 wasn't like mean i mean it wasn't like brutal hazing but it was like oh we're gonna do

00:19:32.260 whether the shorten your sheets prank you do at camp they did that to lucky a lot

00:19:36.520 just kind of mean to him when he when he wanted to play cards it was just kind of a lot of

00:19:40.380 ostracization going on we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:44.340 and now back to the show so the squad leader of lucky's uh squad his guy named glenn die

00:19:51.180 he was adamant like he was just gung-ho he knew that his crew would fly their 25 required missions

00:19:58.020 and they would get the heck out of there and what was interesting they did like they he he he beat

00:20:03.320 they he beat the odds like his crew clocked 25 missions but lucky didn't go home with them why is

00:20:10.380 that because we talked about this because of his injury he missed out he missed out on some missions

00:20:15.660 because he got frostbite on his feet and then he also missed out because because of glenn die and

00:20:21.940 glenn die was a you know from a reputation a really good pilot and when he gets to england like you said

00:20:28.020 really driven to get get through the 25 missions and so he drives his crew pretty hard they become

00:20:32.780 very good though and become you know they're a lead crew which means that they led a lot of these

00:20:38.420 missions but when that happened oftentimes the operations officer or the commanding officer the

00:20:43.380 whole squadron would fly as the command pilot in the lead in the lead ship and so when that happened

00:20:49.520 that command pilot took lucky seat and so lucky had a chance to either move to the tail gun

00:20:56.080 or he could sit it out and the one mission and we cover this pretty good in the book the one mission

00:21:02.820 where he moves into the tail gun it just doesn't work out for him and i think he at that point he sat

00:21:08.200 out so by sitting out those missions he ends up not logging the 25 missions with the rest of the crew so

00:21:13.720 they finish it with he's got three missions left when they finish well what kind of missions were

00:21:18.620 they running what was their typical mission that they did together so they're bombing a lot of targets a lot

00:21:24.420 of industrial targets these are strategic bombers so they're not really there to bomb individual units

00:21:29.160 or tanks you're not calling them in if you're in trouble and they're not giving you air support these

00:21:33.400 were more you know you're going to fly to bremen and you're going to bomb a factory or you're going

00:21:38.620 to fly to uh into france uh into the on the on the peninsula there and you know you're going to bomb a

00:21:44.480 sub pin now the idea here is you're bombing vital vital targets that are part of the strategic war

00:21:52.840 versus the tactical war so you know you're you're at 25 000 feet you're flying over your target in the

00:21:59.000 in the in a city and you're you're hitting a rail yard or a factory gotcha and then for the most part

00:22:05.240 like lucky and his squad they were pretty lucky you know the stuff they they saw some action but it was

00:22:09.780 never like incredibly fierce they just kind of lucked out his crew his initial crew goes home so

00:22:15.540 they did the 25 required missions lucky stays back because he has to do a couple more uh this is

00:22:21.200 october 1943 uh he was super close to you know notching his 25 missions but what's interesting is the

00:22:29.420 germans they started getting just more aggressive and crazy in the air and it was getting the battles 1.00

00:22:36.680 that the bombers faced were just getting more and more fierce like what was going on why were the

00:22:41.440 germans deciding to get so aggressive at this point in the war i mean i think the the strategic

00:22:46.640 bombing despite the losses was taking a toll and i think the the german leadership hitler understood

00:22:52.480 that you know if they don't stem the tide of these of these bombing campaign then they're going to be

00:22:58.760 they're not going to have the ability to continue to wage war so i think that they they bore down

00:23:03.760 knowing that you know if they didn't stop this at some point they're going to come for berlin

00:23:08.080 and they had they had made this such a symbolic thing where you know you're never going to bomb berlin

00:23:12.920 during the day that you know i think they understood propaganda and so they give the order that you know

00:23:19.360 you're not allowed to to turn back and you're to do everything possible the luft was is is to do

00:23:24.800 everything possible to keep the american bombers at bay and that's where we run into them in the book

00:23:30.580 on october 8th 1943 when when lucky he's facing three more missions and he he picks up a brand new

00:23:36.520 crew uh and he flies out to bremen on a on a the first of a weeks long kind of major push by the

00:23:44.700 eighth air force to really really put the pressure on the germans and uh and it was these these these

00:23:50.080 kind of events collide into probably one of the most harrowing missions that uh lucky has in his career

00:23:56.360 and one that we talked a lot about and we went over i think we must have interviewed and gone over

00:24:00.720 the details of this mission i don't know five or six times to make sure we got it right yeah he

00:24:05.260 almost didn't make it on that one mission it's funny it's the one mission when i first started

00:24:10.180 talking to him that he said look this was the only mission that i didn't i was pretty sure i wasn't

00:24:14.220 going to make it he said i felt pretty confident on every other mission that we were going to get

00:24:17.540 back he said but on this one i was pretty sure i was either going to die or become a pow and and so 0.77

00:24:22.920 that's why the book really leans in on this one to give it kind of slows things down and really digs in

00:24:28.820 just because it is one of the more harrowing missions i mean yeah give us an idea so okay it's

00:24:33.860 up you're up there it's cold you can't breathe but also you're just you're facing just gunfire all the

00:24:39.300 time right well it's it's it's not a matter of if you're going to see the luftwaffe it's a matter of

00:24:44.740 when so they know you're coming and so you get you get to your target and then you face fighters to

00:24:50.980 start and you know the idea of 12 o'clock high we we talk a lot about this because the the way to

00:24:56.420 attack the b-17 f which is doesn't have the turret underneath the nose was to attack it straight

00:25:03.320 ahead and so that's why you get you know 12 o'clock high these german fighters coming screaming at you

00:25:09.440 at you know hundreds of miles an hour right at your your nose and your cockpit and they they go blast

00:25:15.180 and past so you're fighting through the fighters to start and then when you start to approach your

00:25:20.380 target you get to what they call the ip the initial point and at that point you're you're ordered

00:25:25.520 to fly completely flat and straight all the way to the target and so that's where you start to

00:25:31.200 encounter your flack and this is this was a is a big deal because flack really was the fighters are

00:25:36.760 part of the defense but the flack really was the defense and and the flack's job was to either drive

00:25:41.540 you so that you had to climb higher so that your accuracy was off or damage the planes enough to break up

00:25:47.560 those squadrons and so what the germans would do is they'd put huge batteries of flack on rail cars 0.99

00:25:53.400 and they would roll them out to where they knew the americans were going to fly over and they would

00:25:57.860 pick a box in the air like an imaginary box and they would throw as much flack into that box as they

00:26:03.000 could and the americans would have to fly straight through it and curtis lemay early in the war decides

00:26:08.780 the best way to get through the flack barrage is to not try to dodge it because you just don't know

00:26:14.100 where it's going to explode and dodging it breaks up the con of the squadrons and it makes bombing

00:26:18.880 really inaccurate so they they may he orders them and the order is to fly straight through it like

00:26:24.440 it's turbulence and so for the pilots they had to stay in these tight formations and and these these

00:26:30.280 aircraft were not like modern aircraft i mean you're they're wrestling these aircraft to stay in

00:26:34.560 these really tight formations through this maelstrom of shrapnel and flack to get to the target and when

00:26:40.960 they get to the target the bombardier ends up flying the plane so that's the other nerve-wracking

00:26:45.380 thing and lucky talks a lot about is where when they get to the initial point the bombardier turns

00:26:49.620 on the autopilot so that he can he can line up the target and so the pilots just sit there with their

00:26:55.320 hands folded trying and watching the rest of the planes make sure they don't get too close to a plane

00:27:00.500 and crash into it yeah and this this last run i mean lucky just like he describes it he just he look

00:27:06.900 out the window and there's just every seems like every bomber in his formation had smoke coming out

00:27:11.700 of it or they were about to collide into each other it was just it just i can't imagine how nerve-wracking

00:27:16.940 it was i mean they they joked that the flack was so thick they could put their landing gear out and

00:27:22.540 land on it and then i mean these aren't armored aircraft so you know the flack is cutting through the

00:27:28.360 wings it's cutting through the fuselage the flack that doesn't cut through is rattling off the the side

00:27:35.320 so it's like flying through a hailstorm so okay he he survives i mean it was just intense and like

00:27:40.440 what happened after this mission like how did the the germans change tactics or how did the americans

00:27:45.420 change tact did anything change after this battle well what what had happened is the you know the

00:27:50.500 americans had figured out that the germans were attacking them head-on which is why you get the g 0.98

00:27:55.220 model and that for those of you guys can imagine a what a b-17 looks like the g model is the one that

00:28:00.500 has the chin turret the two the two machine guns right out on the bottom underneath the cockpit and

00:28:06.520 that was built specifically to stop the germans from attacking them from 12 o'clock high straight on 0.72

00:28:12.460 so that was the one of the big big changes is once lame gets them to fly straight and they get to get

00:28:18.940 it so they've got some guns pointing forward to discourage the attacks from the front the americans

00:28:24.240 really lean in they're able to train their crews faster they're able to produce bombers i think there

00:28:28.900 were 8 000 g models made once they got that one into production and that got into production i think

00:28:35.980 in 43 but when that happens the americans also take the bombardiers out and and so they started doing

00:28:42.900 where the lead aircraft had a bombardier and when that bombardier hit the button to uh to drop bombs

00:28:49.620 everybody dropped their bombs and so they their accuracy was starting to improve a little bit just by

00:28:53.760 sheer volume and then they were able to put a gunner in the front to help defend the front of

00:28:58.840 the bombers but those are the clear you know tactical changes i think americans made the germans

00:29:04.200 continued to try to do the best they could but they had they had limited resources they had limited

00:29:08.820 aircraft and they had a hard time training pilots because you know it's hard to train when you're

00:29:13.600 when every day you've got american bombers over you during the day and then at night you've got the

00:29:18.000 british bombers right i mean that was interesting the the the two different approaches so the germans like

00:29:22.380 the the fighter pilots on the german side that required a lot of skill right and they were just

00:29:26.300 getting decimated the crew on a bomber i mean it required skill but not as much like you like you

00:29:31.760 could learn on the job how to fly a b-17 so you could just it was basically you could just throw

00:29:36.000 bodies up there and just pump out b-17s and just beat them with just like it was almost like a war 0.97

00:29:43.220 of attrition just like just throw as much people and machines at the thing as possible

00:29:47.100 it's absolutely a war of attrition and yes well sully jokes to lucky when he goes to visit him

00:29:53.620 remember that he says you know lucky you're just a bus driver and lucky's response is well we need bus

00:29:58.460 drivers too so yeah there there is no it's not the same as as a fighter and it's interesting is when

00:30:04.280 jimmy doolittle takes over the eighth air force in 44 he switches the fighter tactics so the fighters

00:30:11.480 used to escort the bombers into the target he he scraps that instead he lets the fighters go after the

00:30:17.280 the german luftwaffe on the ground so they would come in and ground attack these airfields

00:30:23.040 and catch the germans on the ground and that's that really starts to make it so that the americans

00:30:28.340 and the allies control the sky completely because the luftwaffe doesn't even get off the ground at

00:30:32.920 that point what was interesting as you read the book you see lucky's kind of attitude towards the

00:30:38.680 war change i think when he first signed up he had that sort of romantic young idealistic view of war

00:30:43.460 i'm gonna get out there see some action i'm gonna fight for a good cause but as the war goes on

00:30:49.220 it's basically he kind of becomes this i mean i i wouldn't blame him you become like cynical you're

00:30:54.860 just like well i'm just trying to survive i'm trying to make it home that's it that's all i'm

00:30:59.140 trying to do i this is i think the part that i was most surprised and i really really have the most

00:31:05.780 respect for in that he i mean he says it in his afterward he calls war folly that nobody wins a war

00:31:11.400 and i think this kind of sentiment and and the trauma that he took away from world war ii i just applaud

00:31:17.020 him for actually being that honest and forthcoming about his feelings and and how he overcame you

00:31:24.240 know sort of what he experienced in world war ii and i just don't think we get that a lot that

00:31:27.820 world war ii isn't a isn't a war that we often think of when it's when it's written about having

00:31:32.880 that sort of in-depth you know handling of of sort of what war does to to a human being so looking back

00:31:40.420 big picture what how pivotal was the hundredth bomb group in the european theater i mean i think

00:31:46.460 they're essential i think i think without that campaign and without the sacrifices made by the

00:31:51.040 airmen of the eighth air force to to achieve the goals that they achieved i'm not sure you know

00:31:56.300 everything else works out as it does because you needed that constant pressure on on nazi germany

00:32:02.240 that the air campaign did and then having air superiority i mean ask any american soldier now

00:32:07.900 about the importance of air superiority or ask the ukrainians about the importance of air superiority

00:32:12.540 and they're going to tell you you know if you if you control the skies you know you're you've got

00:32:17.120 freedom of movement but if every time you move you're and you're afraid that you're going to get

00:32:21.100 attacked from the air it just makes everything else harder so the the ability like it seems impossible

00:32:26.780 for me for the american and allies to land on on the normandy beaches during d-day and and be able to

00:32:33.340 break out if if they were under constant harassment from the air and because they weren't i think that

00:32:38.940 you know that lends itself to the success of that mission all right so uh while lucky was flying his

00:32:44.680 last mission they upped the required missions from 25 to 30 but they grandfathered lucky in so

00:32:50.520 all he had to do was 25 he did his 25 missions last one was kind of like a milk run basically he goes

00:32:57.000 home like what happened to one of my favorite things when i read these books about soldiers in

00:33:00.860 world war ii it's like i like to know what happened to him after the war i think that's really

00:33:04.280 interesting what happened to lucky after the war so he the what i love about the milk run going back

00:33:10.720 to that real quick is he's the operations officer at that point and he's he's waiting he's got one

00:33:15.000 more mission and he's going to hand pick that mission because there's no way he's going to like

00:33:18.680 berlin or anywhere where he's got to fly a long mission he's looking for something he can hit the

00:33:23.040 coast of france with and get out of there and he and dis sanders who is another pilot who had 25

00:33:28.520 missions they picked the hand pick this one and and that mission is kind of fun the way they they do

00:33:32.940 that and they're uh they're pretty pumped getting out of there pretty quickly but he goes home he has

00:33:37.600 some opportunities they offered him a chance to command one of the squadrons but he turned that

00:33:42.480 down and he turned that down and this is another another thing that you learn a little bit about

00:33:46.980 lucky here is he turned it down because he knew if he became the commander of the squadron there's no

00:33:53.040 way he could not fly again right they're going to get hard missions and he's going to have to fly again

00:33:58.660 and and for folks who read the book remember when he turns down this squadron he turns it down with

00:34:04.120 his probably his head thinking about that first berlin mission that that he ends up getting assigned to

00:34:09.100 and the way that the commander had treated him on that mission so he passes on all that and decides

00:34:14.800 he's just going to go home and he's going to train crews replacement crews headed over so he's going

00:34:19.720 to be able to provide them with sort of the hard hard won lessons that he he got and so he goes back to

00:34:26.320 to uh tennessee there's a good scene there where where he's at church with his parents and the the

00:34:31.200 pastor asks him if he wants to stand up and tell him tell the the congregation what's going on over

00:34:35.940 overseas and he declines and he basically sits on his war experience for a long time he bounces around

00:34:41.700 does some schooling and eventually resigns his commission in the in the new fledgling air force

00:34:46.220 to go to college he wanted to finish his college and he he gets into uh the university of denver and

00:34:51.380 becomes a real estate developer down in texas yeah you know i like his story he got married

00:34:56.020 he had a girl that was i was he had a girl going into the war they wrote each other

00:35:00.640 didn't work out he kind of he did the dear john on her it wasn't her doing the dear john on him

00:35:07.200 oh yeah yeah but where do you meet his his wife where where did they meet they met on a double date 1.00

00:35:13.680 when he was down doing some some uh training in texas and then he he stayed after i think she was

00:35:20.660 very popular too so he had to kind of fight his way through the crowd but uh she becomes the love

00:35:25.200 of his life and and i think you can i think you can trace a lot of the way that because the way he

00:35:30.700 adjusted to the to what he had experienced i think speaks to her and that that that marriage and so

00:35:35.820 he said he comes home he's a real estate developer he i guess he doesn't really talk much about the

00:35:39.320 war like when did lucky and this is like this is common for a lot of these world war ii vets they

00:35:43.420 don't they didn't really talk about it and until there's something always something that causes

00:35:48.440 them to come out of their shell like start telling these stories was there something that

00:35:52.220 kind of nudged lucky to start telling his story he was asked by a school group to talk about his

00:35:58.100 experience and his service over world war ii and i think that was the first time and i think he

00:36:02.460 forgive me i want to say he was 670 or so i mean he was he was he was older um but he's asked to talk

00:36:11.320 kind of recount some of his experience and that's sort of what broke it open for him and he he started

00:36:16.340 talking more about his his experiences he also was a volunteer at the frontiers of flight museum

00:36:22.260 in dallas and i think he shared some of his aviation experience there and i think that's what led him to

00:36:28.040 uh to me i mean i think had he not had that experience and sort of had the opportunity to

00:36:33.360 to talk a little bit about this i don't know if he would have would have taken part in the book

00:36:37.940 so i mean what have you taken away personally from lucky story you know after spending so much time

00:36:43.660 with him and then also researching about his story one i learned a ton about the daily grind of of the

00:36:52.580 air war i mean i i had much like everyone i i had sort of a romantic idea of it and i didn't really

00:36:58.940 truly understand the conditions they were fighting in i also just took away i think i got a friend out

00:37:03.960 of it i mean i i really we met during covid and he became very much something that in a time when we

00:37:10.100 were all sort of trying to grapple with what our reality was um i knew i had a conversation with

00:37:14.980 lucky and i knew what we were going to talk about and so that that sort of friendship over the phone

00:37:19.520 actually for that we spent a year on the phone doing this i think it was a it was a touch point

00:37:25.320 for me so i feel like i got a a really good friend and we we sort of have a common experience that we

00:37:31.960 will always have and so that to me that's the the most valuable part is i got a chance to meet this

00:37:37.880 meet lucky but more importantly i got a chance to tell the story and this is one of those rare

00:37:42.720 stories you know you're always looking for that you know is bigger than you and and has such this

00:37:48.180 great soul at the core of it so yeah no i'm just lucky to have met him i don't know about you maybe

00:37:54.120 i think this might have happened to you whenever i talk or interact with these world war ii veterans

00:37:58.460 i always like i it like it's somehow just like being in their presence and like rubbing shoulders with

00:38:04.440 them like it it motivates me to like be more decent i don't know i think that's like the best

00:38:10.420 word i can describe it's like not it's like be a decent human being i don't know if that happened

00:38:14.720 does that did that happen to you with your interactions with lucky absolutely i mean these

00:38:18.640 guys are these guys are an amazing generation they they have a different mindset they come from a

00:38:25.140 different place than us and i think there is a level of decency there and there is a level of unity

00:38:32.200 and and and while maybe there were some differences you know at the smallest level

00:38:38.400 overall i mean this was a uh we were a nation that united over every you know over a common goal

00:38:45.200 and that there's something powerful about that there's something makes you want to be better it

00:38:49.500 makes you want to be more decent and it makes you want to find that common ground and so yeah no i

00:38:53.760 absolutely i know exactly what you that feeling because i had that same feeling yeah well kevin this

00:38:58.900 has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your work

00:39:02.100 i mean obviously you can buy it anywhere you buy books i've got a website kevinmauer.net that i'm

00:39:07.340 quickly trying to update but you can get information there i'm on twitter at scribbler six is the is the

00:39:14.140 handle and obviously we're going to be out and about i'll be for folks where dallas with lucky he'll

00:39:19.620 be at the frontiers of flight and at the end of april for an event around the book but also a chance

00:39:24.600 to really sit down and talk with lucky so we'll be out about you can find me on twitter and online

00:39:29.100 fantastic well kevin mauer thanks for your time it's been a pleasure uh my pleasure thank you

00:39:32.980 for having me my guest it was kevin mauer he is the author of the book damn lucky one man's courage

00:39:38.000 during the bloodiest military campaign in aviation history it's available on amazon.com and bookstores

00:39:42.080 everywhere you find more information about his work at his website kevinmauer.net also check out

00:39:46.240 our show notes at aom.is b17 where you find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:39:51.080 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

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00:40:35.780 what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - April 27, 2022

The Harrowing Life of a World War II B-17 Pilot

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