The Art of Manliness - The Humble, Narcissistic Leader

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.160 Research, not to mention anecdotal observation, shows that a lot of narcissists end up in

00:00:15.960 leadership positions.

00:00:16.740 That's because the qualities narcissism enlarges into extremes like confidence, assertiveness,

00:00:21.660 sense of destiny, help people rise to the top.

00:00:24.320 Unfortunately, the same qualities of narcissism that help an individual obtain a leadership

00:00:28.140 position can prevent them from being effective in that position and from holding onto it.

00:00:32.340 My guest's research has uncovered what can be a solution to this dilemma, the timeless

00:00:36.140 virtue of humility.

00:00:37.640 His name is Brad Owens.

00:00:38.680 He's a professor of business ethics, and we begin our conversation today by digging into

00:00:43.060 the fact that studies done on the effect of narcissism on leadership have been inconsistent,

00:00:47.640 with some showing to have a positive effect and others a negative one.

00:00:50.740 Brad explains that the reason these studies may have been inconclusive is that while narcissism

00:00:54.720 can get someone into a leadership role, it then gets in the way of them succeeding in

00:00:58.420 that new role.

00:00:58.920 We then turn to the idea that cultivating humility can temper the negative effects of narcissism,

00:01:03.400 the three aspects of humility every leader, whether narcissistic or not, should cultivate.

00:01:07.800 We then discuss whether there are situations where you do want to be more narcissistic than

00:01:11.080 humble, what a humble, narcissistic leader looks like, and how Steve Jobs and George Washington

00:01:15.640 serve as examples of this combination of qualities.

00:01:18.540 After the show's over, check out the show notes at aom.is slash humble narcissist.

00:01:22.380 Brad joins me now via clearcast.io.

00:01:31.140 All right, Brad Owens, welcome to the show.

00:01:37.820 Thanks, Brad.

00:01:38.860 Great to be here.

00:01:39.980 So you are a professor of business ethics, and one of your areas of focus with your research

00:01:44.940 is the intersection of humility and narcissism in leadership.

00:01:49.040 What led you down that path of research?

00:01:50.780 Well, one of the reasons my colleagues, Angela Wallace, David Walden, and I decided to do this

00:01:56.180 research is that the research on leader narcissism has actually been really inconclusive.

00:02:02.360 Narcissism is generally unpleasant and off-putting.

00:02:06.280 In our personal relationships, it almost always leads to poor outcomes.

00:02:11.000 But in organizational leadership, it's less clear.

00:02:13.760 The data is all over the place.

00:02:15.400 So is narcissism good for leadership?

00:02:18.320 That's a question that's been hotly debated, and the data hasn't provided a lot of clarity.

00:02:23.320 In some studies, it's decidedly negative.

00:02:25.720 In others, it's actually positive.

00:02:28.180 And so we wondered, why is this?

00:02:29.880 Why is narcissism effective for leadership in some instances and ineffective in others?

00:02:34.860 And when you have these wide swings, usually there's another piece to the puzzle that isn't

00:02:39.080 being measured, which is influencing these relationships.

00:02:41.380 Third variable or moderator that's not being accounted for, that's impacting things.

00:02:45.240 And our team wondered if examining the impact of humility might explain these inconsistent

00:02:49.920 findings.

00:02:50.980 So adding clarity to this leader narcissism literature is one reason we decided to do

00:02:55.640 the study.

00:02:56.120 But a deeper reason that may hit closer to home that's a bit more personal is the pairing

00:03:01.520 of humility and narcissism represents the classic internal battle that not just leaders,

00:03:07.080 but most of us grapple with.

00:03:08.720 Kind of like the two wolves fighting within each of us from the Native American tale.

00:03:14.100 And so Immanuel Kant calls self-worship, which is closely tied to narcissism, the root of

00:03:18.800 all vice.

00:03:20.120 Religious thinkers consider excessive pride as it relates to narcissism to also be a universal

00:03:26.020 sin, for instance.

00:03:27.980 So in contrast, humility has been held up as a foundational virtue that enables all the

00:03:32.840 others.

00:03:33.640 It's been called the mother virtue that gives life to the other virtues.

00:03:37.220 So because humility entails seeking value beyond the self, it directly counteracts Kant's idea

00:03:44.020 of the root of all vice, which is self-worship.

00:03:47.000 So if there's one message that's consistently been given by past philosophers, historians,

00:03:51.900 and luminaries, it's that humans get trapped in hubris, narcissism, overconfidence, excessive

00:03:57.420 pride.

00:03:57.860 And at the heart of most religions and many secular efforts like moral philosophy that seek to encourage

00:04:03.960 virtue and moral character, humility can be found as a core principle.

00:04:08.760 And so we hope to provide insight about this internal battle we face between narcissism and

00:04:13.720 humility.

00:04:14.160 And all good research, I believe, also entails some me-search where you look inside and you

00:04:21.880 kind of see how this research can apply and inform, you know, your own challenges, state

00:04:27.760 of mind and being.

00:04:29.040 And so we hope that this research also could provide some of that insight as we all seek

00:04:33.740 to grapple with this humility and narcissism within each of us.

00:04:38.640 You said earlier, narcissism, the research on leadership and narcissism and humility, it's

00:04:43.420 kind of fuzzy.

00:04:44.840 And as you mentioned, there's, we typically associate narcissism with negative attributes.

00:04:48.840 Yeah.

00:04:49.060 But you also in your research have highlighted there's, you know, narcissism is actually a

00:04:52.340 lot more complex than just bad.

00:04:53.820 There's some, you know, positive things about it as well.

00:04:57.220 So for research purposes, like how are you defining narcissism?

00:05:00.100 Because I think a lot of times in the popular culture, we throw that word around a lot and it

00:05:04.320 doesn't mean the same thing as a psychologist or a researcher means it.

00:05:08.640 Yeah.

00:05:09.280 And you're absolutely right.

00:05:10.500 There's a lot of fuzziness around the word narcissism.

00:05:13.160 In our research, we use the definition from Ames, Rose, and Anderson, and they suggest

00:05:17.920 narcissism as a complex of characteristics that entails things like an excessively self-centered

00:05:24.180 perspective, self-absorption, extreme confidence, or sense of superiority.

00:05:29.080 It also can entail a strong drive to lead and to succeed, like very, very strong ambition.

00:05:35.420 And so I think it's important to make it clear that what we're talking about in our research

00:05:40.000 is what's called subclinical narcissism.

00:05:43.160 It's a less severe form of narcissism, which is probably more malleable.

00:05:47.400 It grows or shrinks based on our experiences and choices.

00:05:51.420 And so we all need some kind of ego-based tendencies, a measure of self-confidence, self-esteem, drive

00:05:59.100 for accomplishment.

00:06:00.100 But the question is how much and how do we know when they've gotten out of balance?

00:06:04.940 Narcissism represents this condition where those self-based tendencies have kind of gone

00:06:11.940 to an extreme.

00:06:14.120 And so we felt that humility, which is cast as a virtue, that's the way people have talked

00:06:21.140 about it, that guards against extremes, humility may help put the brakes on some of these ego-based

00:06:27.620 tendencies and prevent them from going to extreme.

00:06:31.400 To get to your question about positive and negative outcomes, I'd say that normally narcissism

00:06:36.280 leads to poor outcomes, professionally and relationally.

00:06:39.980 And so, again, represents those healthy self-preservation and ego-based tendencies that have kind of gone

00:06:45.600 berserk or gone too far.

00:06:46.820 But there have been some scholars who've suggested that narcissists can sometimes produce great

00:06:51.900 things.

00:06:53.060 Narcissism is complex.

00:06:54.200 There can be positive outcomes in some situations.

00:06:57.300 Are there any examples from your research of CEOs that were, you know, we could describe

00:07:01.860 as narcissists who had a positive impact on their organization?

00:07:06.140 So the CEO that we kind of used when we started this research was Steve Jobs.

00:07:12.060 And so Steve Jobs' first kind of stint as the head of Apple, he was definitely very talented,

00:07:20.980 very innovative, intelligent, but he also was really toxic, really hard to work with, very

00:07:28.180 difficult to trust.

00:07:30.960 And he was doing a lot of things that caused individuals to want to leave Apple.

00:07:36.020 And so he eventually was ousted and had nothing to do with Apple for, I believe it was 11 years.

00:07:43.420 And then he was invited back and he still was Steve Jobs.

00:07:47.760 He still had a high level of narcissism, but that narcissism seemed to be tempered by a measure

00:07:54.160 of humility.

00:07:54.940 Steve Jobs called his first firing from Apple, quote, bad tasting medicine that the patient

00:08:00.720 probably needed.

00:08:01.660 He was more apt to listen to other people's ideas and to give credit to the really talented

00:08:07.640 people that were making Apple into the most valuable company in the world at the time.

00:08:13.380 And so to us, that's an example of someone who certainly was not able to shed all their

00:08:19.480 narcissism, but by combining it with a measure of humility, they were able to produce a lot

00:08:24.580 of value and maybe reduce a lot of the toxicity of some of their narcissistic tendencies.

00:08:29.960 So it sounds like people who are narcissists, they tend to end up being leaders because they've

00:08:35.320 got that, they got a lot of self-confidence, that drive to lead, they're ambitious, etc.

00:08:41.020 But those things that got them in positions of leadership can sometimes bite them in the 0.99

00:08:45.540 butt like Steve Jobs. 0.99

00:08:47.280 Yeah. 0.73

00:08:48.100 Yeah.

00:08:48.700 The research is pretty clear that narcissism is positively related to leadership emergence.

00:08:55.240 And those who put themselves on a path to lead in large organizations usually feel that they're

00:09:00.820 destined for greatness.

00:09:03.160 And so first impressions of narcissists can be quite positive.

00:09:05.840 They initially can seem quite charming, charismatic, confident, and leader-like.

00:09:10.360 However, over time, sometimes this charm can wear off.

00:09:13.680 The true colors are shown and people can become disillusioned as they see more clearly that the charm

00:09:19.060 or the charisma is actually more motivated by self-aggrandizement or desire for praise.

00:09:25.520 But as these leaders gain power and success accumulates, these self-beliefs are reinforced.

00:09:31.420 And so that success and power can be.

00:09:35.200 However, there are some who do wake up to an awareness of their kind of ballooning narcissism.

00:09:40.220 There's a book by, I think, Michael Goldman that says,

00:09:43.840 What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

00:09:46.260 And I read a Harvard Business Review article about the twice-born leader.

00:09:50.840 You know, these ones that wake up and they realize that the very characteristics that got them into

00:09:55.540 leadership positions are the very characteristics that are causing them to lose their following,

00:10:01.880 lose trust with people, and burn bridges unless they're tempered.

00:10:06.260 So there's something more that leaders need.

00:10:08.140 And we believe at least some of the answer is humility to help temper, again,

00:10:14.700 some of the more toxic aspects of narcissism, help them better leverage the more productive

00:10:19.320 components of narcissism.

00:10:21.500 Well, and as you highlight in your research, thanks to scandals in the world of business

00:10:25.280 and government, I'm thinking like Enron was a big one that drove, started the driving,

00:10:30.480 particularly in popular business books and in research, there's been a call amongst leadership

00:10:36.040 experts to develop more humility.

00:10:38.140 But like narcissism, like humility is also a fuzzy word, a fuzzy concept.

00:10:44.380 So when you're doing your research about humility, what do you mean by humility?

00:10:50.200 Yeah.

00:10:50.880 So we view humility in three dimensions, self-awareness, teachability, and an appreciation of others'

00:10:57.160 strengths and contributions.

00:10:58.040 In other words, humility influences how we see ourselves more accurately, others more

00:11:04.140 appreciatively, and new information more openly.

00:11:08.500 And so these three dimensions were the result of compiling and synthesizing a large literature

00:11:14.340 from the past, both philosophical and psychological, and also from our interviews with organizational

00:11:19.780 leaders where we interviewed CEOs, mid-level managers, army officers, and asked them, you

00:11:27.060 know, what does leader humility look like?

00:11:29.500 Can you tell us stories about episodes where a leader showed humility and kind of synthesizing

00:11:35.620 all that data to boil down to these three dimensions?

00:11:38.420 All right.

00:11:38.880 So what were those three dimensions again?

00:11:40.320 Recap?

00:11:40.980 So it's self-awareness, teachability, and appreciation of other strengths and contributions.

00:11:46.820 And so what does this look like in action?

00:11:48.400 Like what are some leaders that exemplify these three?

00:11:51.440 Or maybe one of, I mean, oh, here's a question.

00:11:53.500 Do you need all three to be humble or can you have like one or two?

00:11:57.660 What is that?

00:11:58.460 What about that?

00:11:58.900 That's a great question.

00:11:59.920 They actually tend to reinforce one another.

00:12:02.680 So if someone is becoming more self-aware, kind of the limits that they may have, things

00:12:07.860 that they don't yet know, then they're more likely to be teachable or open to new ideas

00:12:13.360 and feedback.

00:12:14.640 So I think one of the best ways to illustrate what does humility look like, I'm remembering

00:12:18.780 a story.

00:12:20.080 We interviewed some leaders right after the housing crisis, the kind of the mortgage meltdown.

00:12:26.400 We went into mortgage banking companies and we interviewed those leaders.

00:12:29.540 This was an industry that you could say had been humbled.

00:12:32.960 It was kind of a stigmatized industry.

00:12:35.660 And in the wake of all this, there was a leader that shared the story that they were in a board

00:12:39.840 room.

00:12:40.320 They were trying to figure out how to help their organization survive.

00:12:43.700 And this leader said, look, no, I've been a hard charging kind of a leader barking orders,

00:12:49.040 but I need everybody's best ideas.

00:12:52.580 We need to see from everybody's eyes in order to figure this out.

00:12:56.280 And so I need you to tell me to shut up once in a while and just let us hash out ideas and

00:13:02.440 let everybody give their perspectives because I'm just not good at that.

00:13:07.020 I'm not good at listening like I should be.

00:13:10.200 So I give you all permission to interrupt me and to tell me to just be quiet and let us

00:13:14.900 kind of figure this out altogether.

00:13:17.440 So that was an example of a leader who showed self-awareness, where they saw something that

00:13:23.640 they were weak at, where they showed teachability and asking for everybody's ideas and validating

00:13:29.940 everybody's perspectives and saying, we need everybody to weigh in here in order to figure

00:13:35.220 this out.

00:13:36.120 Other examples that we compiled through these interviews were admitting when you're wrong,

00:13:41.540 owning bouts of overconfidence, owning up to mistakes, asking for honest and even brutal

00:13:46.360 feedback, being open to suggestions, giving credit where credit's due, and even being generous

00:13:51.880 in crediting your people for success, even when you had a hand in it.

00:13:55.060 So again, these examples kind of reflect those three dimensions I just talked about.

00:14:00.560 But it sounds like self-awareness is sort of like the first step, like a narcissistic leader

00:14:04.920 has to be aware that they are a narcissist and they need more humility.

00:14:09.240 And so for narcissistic leaders, how does that happen usually?

00:14:12.240 Do they have to get fired and oust from the company like Steve Jobs?

00:14:15.680 Or can there be more subtle ways to self-awareness?

00:14:20.280 Yeah.

00:14:20.900 So it seemed like there were two paths.

00:14:22.960 And in these interviews, many leaders would talk about their own journeys in overcoming

00:14:26.800 narcissism.

00:14:28.180 That there was many who, when they first got in their leadership role, they felt like kind

00:14:32.400 of a saucy youngster who had to prove themselves.

00:14:35.760 And they made a lot of mistakes and tried to project this kind of omniscient or all-wise

00:14:41.860 posture almost, but then as they showed their fallibility and as that type of leadership

00:14:48.520 just wasn't working for them, some of them just kind of woke up to the fact that this

00:14:53.800 is not working, it's hurting my relationships, it's making me less effective.

00:14:57.900 And then they searched for exemplars or other ways of leading that often led to things like

00:15:05.520 humility.

00:15:06.340 So that's one path people take to overcome narcissism or make adjustments in their leadership.

00:15:11.420 Another path is kind of like Steve Jobs, some significant reversal happened, whether it was

00:15:17.360 a firing or another kind of big failure.

00:15:20.800 And that caused them to kind of be jolted from their frame of mind and their way of leading.

00:15:28.020 And that helped them to, again, try and seek to make changes.

00:15:32.580 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:15:37.080 And now back to the show.

00:15:38.680 Well, and being a humble leader is a tricky thing because on the one hand, people want

00:15:43.680 a humble leader, as research shows, but they also want a leader that's competent and confident.

00:15:48.160 Yeah.

00:15:48.560 So are there instances where trying to be humble can actually backfire and make the people

00:15:55.960 you're leading respect you less? 0.97

00:15:57.940 Because you're admitting your faults, like, I'm just a dumb, I know nothing. 0.93

00:16:01.760 Please help me. 0.97

00:16:03.380 And they're like, okay, this is actually, we're doomed.

00:16:05.820 This guy doesn't know what he's doing.

00:16:08.340 Yeah.

00:16:08.580 You know, there are instances, I believe, when humility is not effective for leadership.

00:16:16.240 And it's surprising.

00:16:18.200 We've done some research in the military and interviewing West Point trained military officers

00:16:24.600 who've been deployed a few times, and we ask them, when is humility less effective?

00:16:29.800 And when does it just not work at all?

00:16:32.560 And it surprised us how few those circumstances were, actually.

00:16:37.380 There are times when, based on the interviews we've done, where time is very short.

00:16:42.980 And survival is really what the organization or your group of soldiers needs to focus on.

00:16:50.860 And to initiate humility in a leadership process often takes time.

00:16:56.100 And so before a mission, when you're preparing for it, and then after a mission in a military

00:17:02.180 context, as you're doing your action review, humility is a great idea.

00:17:06.120 But when the bullets are flying, that's the time when you need to do everything as a leader

00:17:11.700 to create order out of chaos, to give directives, to shout and even swear and do everything to

00:17:19.600 get your soldiers over the hill in order to save their lives.

00:17:23.520 And so there's a lot of dramatized leadership scenarios where, you know, in the movies and

00:17:28.900 shows where humility just would not be a good idea.

00:17:32.260 But these military officers were huge advocates of humility and how it was needed, that they

00:17:39.320 needed to figure out a way to teach the cadets, the younger soldiers and leaders, how to embrace

00:17:44.920 more humility, lessons that they'd learned through hard experience.

00:17:49.740 And so actually in the last few months, the army changed their core leadership doctrine to

00:17:55.400 include humility as a fundamental characteristic that they want in military leadership.

00:18:00.720 And so they're, they're looking for something to kind of counterbalance the more, uh, you

00:18:06.200 could say agentic top-down authoritative leadership and, and humility they see is, is part of the

00:18:12.320 answer.

00:18:13.180 All right.

00:18:13.380 So sum up most times you want to be humble, but when there's a crisis going on, so if there's

00:18:18.180 lives on the line, or if there's a business, you're in a business and there's like a crisis

00:18:21.280 and decisions have to be made.

00:18:23.340 Like that's when you'd want a more, I don't know, assertive narcissistic leader, not, not

00:18:28.640 the humility, but most time the default should be humility.

00:18:32.840 Yeah.

00:18:33.560 Yeah.

00:18:34.120 Well, it's okay.

00:18:34.900 The, so the self-awareness being teachable, and that means just that like that one example

00:18:40.600 you gave, that means the leaders say, going to the people that he leads and saying, teach

00:18:44.900 me, like, tell me what to do.

00:18:46.120 Like, how do you, like, what does that look like without it being like condescending or,

00:18:52.020 you know, it's, you know, people take it the wrong way.

00:18:55.820 So I think that when the leader actually does have more experience than everyone else and

00:19:03.200 when the leader has been, has training that everyone else doesn't have, and it's obvious

00:19:07.660 that that leader's perspective is probably the most valuable, then I think that people kind

00:19:14.560 of sense that, and, and for the leader to be overtly or overly teachable in that moment,

00:19:21.320 people might feel that that's kind of just wasting time.

00:19:24.180 But in many scenarios, there is quite a bit of uncertainty and they're not, we're dealing

00:19:31.080 with probabilities again, rather than, than certainties.

00:19:34.560 And I think in, in those situations, then it makes a lot of sense for a leader to admit

00:19:40.780 and say, look, I have some ideas about what, what may happen and, and, and which way we

00:19:46.840 should go, but let's, let's all of us kind of consider this and, and, and put it together.

00:19:51.280 There was one example that was shared from, again, these West Point leader interviews where

00:19:57.440 this captain was deployed.

00:20:01.280 He got his first day in Afghanistan.

00:20:03.020 The leader at the base where he was at said, we've just received intel that this base is

00:20:09.040 going to be attacked from two different angles, and it's going to involve suicide attacks as

00:20:14.140 well.

00:20:14.800 The leader basically gave it to him and said, you're, you just got out of West Point.

00:20:18.980 You have great tactical training.

00:20:21.480 Why don't you go ahead and put the plan together to, you know, save the base tomorrow.

00:20:26.200 And so this leader said, you know, I could have kind of touted my West Point training and

00:20:33.480 pretended that I knew exactly what to do, but he, instead he brought everyone in the

00:20:39.500 room and he said, look, you know, this base, you know, the geography around it, you know,

00:20:45.980 the enemy better than I do.

00:20:47.880 We need everyone to put their heads together, to put together a strategy that's going to make

00:20:52.840 it most likely for us to, you know, save as many lives as possible and to succeed tomorrow.

00:20:59.920 So they worked through the night.

00:21:01.640 He was very open to everyone's ideas and feedback, and they cobbled together last minute a defensive

00:21:09.520 strategy that was a wild success.

00:21:12.700 Very few injuries.

00:21:14.620 I don't think there were any casualties.

00:21:16.860 And he credits it to that position he took, you know, in the moment he was tempted.

00:21:22.840 To, to not be teachable, but he said that because he was teachable and got everybody's

00:21:29.240 input and perspective, that it was the resounding success that it couldn't have been otherwise.

00:21:35.720 Well, I was going to say in what your research has shown too, is that, that the quality of

00:21:39.540 teachability from a leader, it rubs off, it goes like it rubs off on the people they lead.

00:21:44.460 Like when people see that, oh, this guy who's, you know, supposedly made it, he's continuing

00:21:49.820 to learn.

00:21:50.920 Maybe I should do that too, which that's great for the organization.

00:21:53.780 If everyone's continually learning and adapting.

00:21:57.340 Yeah.

00:21:57.980 Yeah.

00:21:58.180 Humility is like many leadership characteristics.

00:22:00.920 When a leader sends the signals, what's appropriate in an otherwise ambiguous social context,

00:22:06.420 what the leader does legitimizes that behavior.

00:22:09.740 And so if a leader is narcissistic, it legitimizes narcissism in an organization.

00:22:15.800 But if they're humble, then others feel free to, to be more open to teaching and development

00:22:21.920 rather than status seeking or hiding what they don't know.

00:22:25.140 And so this leader contagion effect, I think is we, we found it empirically, both in the

00:22:30.120 field and in experimental studies, it can be very powerful.

00:22:34.040 So leaders understanding that how they choose to lead will influence and cascade down the

00:22:40.700 organization.

00:22:42.300 And so when we asked these CEOs and other leaders, like, what does humility do psychologically

00:22:48.220 for followers?

00:22:49.360 The answer was that it, it legitimizes the followers own developmental journeys.

00:22:55.940 And that liberates them from what's called evaluation apprehension.

00:23:00.060 There's all kinds of positive, productive benefits when the leader chooses to trade a little

00:23:05.560 bit of their status, a little bit of their power in order to legitimize learning and development

00:23:11.400 for everyone.

00:23:12.840 Well, that third aspect of humility is recognizing the contributions of those you lead or those

00:23:18.060 that follow you.

00:23:19.100 And that often involves giving praise.

00:23:21.340 And I think a lot of leaders, they read those in like the airport, you know, business

00:23:25.300 books that they read, they pick up the story like, oh yeah, I need to give praise.

00:23:28.340 And so they, you know, give praise, but that can backfire too, because people can, they can

00:23:33.440 sniff out if it's sincere or not.

00:23:35.500 Right.

00:23:36.440 Yeah.

00:23:36.880 I think that there is an art to giving praise in a way that it'll be authentic and sincere

00:23:43.960 and even powerful.

00:23:46.000 It's one of the most powerful things a leader can do is to sincerely praise the people that

00:23:51.780 they're leading.

00:23:52.740 And I think that two things to remember is that the, the praise has to be specific, very

00:23:59.680 general praise can communicate this idea that the leader just doesn't really know what I

00:24:04.020 do or what I contribute.

00:24:06.360 So I think it has to be specific and then related to that has to be accurate.

00:24:11.560 It can really backfire if you praise someone for doing something that they didn't, they didn't

00:24:15.800 do.

00:24:16.540 And, and it is true that someone may receive praise and kind of think, am I really adding

00:24:22.660 that to this organization?

00:24:23.740 We do have both positive and negative blind spots.

00:24:26.240 And I think a good leader is one tries to help everyone understand more fully to own and

00:24:33.600 to leverage the strengths that they have, that they may themselves not fully see.

00:24:37.220 But when employees hear specific and accurate feedback, they feel known and understood and

00:24:43.500 appreciated.

00:24:44.080 So a person who's narcissistic, they tend to emerge as leaders because those attributes

00:24:50.040 of narcissism that you're talking about help people, like they're confident, they're assertive,

00:24:53.540 they're ambitious, et cetera.

00:24:54.680 Yeah.

00:24:55.100 Eventually that can backfire if they don't temper it with humility.

00:24:58.640 So what does like a humble narcissistic leader look like?

00:25:03.580 What do you, what do you think?

00:25:04.860 How would you describe that?

00:25:06.420 So I think a humble narcissistic leader, if you, if you kind of see a continuum of kind of

00:25:12.860 these self-based or kind of ego based tendencies, and in some degree, I think I've mentioned that

00:25:20.200 they are healthy, self-esteem, self-confidence, some measure of self-interest.

00:25:24.840 A humble narcissistic leader is one who is inclined to have too much of that, but they

00:25:30.320 are transparent about it.

00:25:32.500 They're, they're working on it.

00:25:34.100 They're kind of a recovering narcissist, so to speak, trying to embrace kind of some of

00:25:39.200 these habits of humility, these approaches to help counter this internal inclination.

00:25:46.860 And so, you know, some, some levels of narcissism just are very hard to change.

00:25:52.160 There's actually some research by David Chester and his colleagues where they found that there's

00:25:56.460 neural deficits for narcissists, that they're actually hardwired differently.

00:26:00.180 And that the, the reward centers of the brain and that kind of the self-evaluative centers

00:26:04.780 of the brain are more disconnected than they are for, for normal people, meaning it's harder

00:26:09.340 for narcissists to feel good about themselves.

00:26:11.940 And so they seek external validation.

00:26:14.360 And so for those individuals, I don't know if, if there's a lot of room to, to move the

00:26:21.300 needle, but for most of the rest of us who have both narcissism, you know, narcissistic

00:26:26.540 tendencies as well as, uh, and we see the value of humility, we can make choices in order to

00:26:32.900 surround ourselves with people who will keep us grounded, who won't enable narcissism, but

00:26:37.820 instead may, may, may challenge it.

00:26:39.980 We can be constantly seeking feedback.

00:26:42.020 We can be overtly trying to, to give credit to other people, even if internally, initially,

00:26:48.400 we don't feel that we're, that comes natural to us.

00:26:51.400 So from the leaders that, that I've talked to and that we've documented their, their stories,

00:26:55.840 that it does get easier.

00:26:57.440 They see the benefits of humility.

00:26:59.600 And I'm thinking back to even Aristotle, when he talked about what are virtues like humility,

00:27:06.040 what, what is the nature of them?

00:27:07.960 He viewed those more as skills that we choose to develop, moral muscles that, that we choose

00:27:13.820 to grow rather than innate characteristics that we have.

00:27:17.240 So, so your, your question about what does a humble narcissist look like?

00:27:20.820 It's one who's embraced this idea that the, all the possible virtues that we could develop

00:27:25.860 like humility are, are like muscles that we can choose to develop.

00:27:29.660 And even if I'm inclined to be narcissistic, I embrace humility and try to practice it in

00:27:35.020 order to stave off the most, the more toxic aspects of, of that narcissism.

00:27:40.480 So you mentioned Steve Jobs as sort of a paradigm of someone who is a narcissist, but eventually

00:27:45.400 was able to temper it a bit, not completely a bit with some humility.

00:27:49.420 Any other examples of, you know, humble narcissistic leaders from, could be even like the realm

00:27:53.460 of politics, you know, history, I mean, any other that stand out to you?

00:27:57.820 So there's one that I think is really interesting.

00:28:00.640 If you look at like, for instance, this is a historical example, but the life of George

00:28:04.660 Washington, young George Washington, he was obsessed with, with becoming prominent.

00:28:10.860 And in his youthful and outsized ambition, he made some foolish blunders that, that were

00:28:16.160 setbacks for him in, at the time, the British military.

00:28:20.280 He thought a lot about his legacy, but he also was one that was aware of it.

00:28:26.440 And he learned from his blunders and he really tried to, to improve himself and overcome some

00:28:33.020 of his natural inclinations that were unfavorable.

00:28:36.540 And over time, he, he became someone who was a very polished person, a very effective leader.

00:28:44.960 And so that's an example of someone who, again, deep in his bones, he, he really wanted to,

00:28:51.940 to make a mark on the world.

00:28:53.640 And, and that's, he really cared about what history would say about him, but at the same

00:28:58.420 time, he really embraced many aspects of humility.

00:29:01.620 And one of my favorite kind of stories about George Washington is when King George, whom

00:29:07.740 George Washington had just beaten in war, heard that Washington's plan was to give all

00:29:13.760 military power back to Congress, rather than keeping it for himself, like Napoleon and other,

00:29:20.020 and many other leaders who were in a similar position.

00:29:22.340 When King George heard that Washington intended to do that, he said, if he does that, he will

00:29:28.720 be the greatest man in the world.

00:29:30.260 And so I think it's interesting that George Washington, his leadership prowess and military

00:29:38.920 expertise that beat King George in war was not what made him the greatest man in the world.

00:29:44.660 It was actually this kind of this act of humility of giving power back to Congress that actually

00:29:49.760 completed George Washington as being this, this humble leader who also was, was, had gained

00:29:55.020 a great amount of power and respect.

00:29:56.840 So I think as, as far as humble narcissists, I think that George Washington may reflect

00:30:02.060 that combination.

00:30:03.260 That's a good one.

00:30:04.140 All right.

00:30:04.540 So we talked about people who are narcissists that who are leaders, they can temper that

00:30:09.760 narcissism with humility.

00:30:11.180 What about people who are just like, just humble?

00:30:13.180 Like they're just easygoing.

00:30:15.160 They're not narcissistic to be effective leaders.

00:30:18.620 Should they learn to be a bit more narcissistic?

00:30:21.640 Has your research looked into that?

00:30:24.980 So we haven't directly looked into that, but what I would say is I don't think narcissism

00:30:31.020 is what overtly humble people need.

00:30:35.520 And again, along that spectrum of those self-preservation or self or ego-based tendencies, I mentioned that

00:30:41.120 there's a healthy level of self-confidence and desire to lead and wanting to achieve greatly,

00:30:45.480 but that doesn't necessarily devolve into full-on narcissism, which is, I think, extreme and

00:30:51.840 in most cases toxic.

00:30:53.480 But you make a good point that sometimes people who are humble need to assert themselves more.

00:30:57.700 They need to exhibit more strength and confidence.

00:31:00.760 And so I'd recommend cultivating greater awareness of one's strengths through either feedback,

00:31:05.660 coaching, or introspection, and then working to more fully own those strengths and practice

00:31:10.360 leveraging them more frequently and effectively in one's role.

00:31:15.320 And also, if you're in a new role, I think it's really important, and we found this over

00:31:18.940 and over, that if you're a brand new leader, establishing some baseline reputation for competence

00:31:25.360 is really important for subsequent kind of expressions of humility to be seen favorably.

00:31:31.900 The leadership scholars call this idiosyncrasy credits.

00:31:34.800 You kind of have to build equity with people.

00:31:37.460 Like, why should we follow you?

00:31:38.960 You have to kind of fulfill their expectations for what it means to be leader-like.

00:31:43.920 And then once you've done that, expressions of humility are actually seen as pro-social,

00:31:49.800 as moral attempts to kind of give praise and to be a moral good leader.

00:31:56.480 If you don't have that baseline reputation for competence, then expressions of humility actually

00:32:02.640 can hurt you and hurt your leadership.

00:32:05.520 So, it's called primacy effects.

00:32:07.920 You have to, the first impression really does matter.

00:32:12.000 But once that's established, then you have some freedom to approach your leadership with

00:32:16.660 more humility.

00:32:17.800 All right.

00:32:17.920 Neat street cred first.

00:32:19.480 Yeah, that's it.

00:32:20.120 Street cred.

00:32:20.660 Street cred.

00:32:21.160 Well, what's the future of this research?

00:32:23.220 Do you have any other questions you want to explore with this intersection of narcissism,

00:32:27.480 humility, or even just the topic of humility and leadership?

00:32:29.780 Yeah, we have a paper under review that looks more at the neurology behind narcissism.

00:32:36.160 And so, we're trying to get a bit more physiological about this.

00:32:40.680 And we are seeing some interesting differences between brains that are inclined to be more

00:32:45.380 narcissistic and those that are inclined to be more humble.

00:32:48.260 And so, I think that's an important piece.

00:32:51.000 Also, just looking at whether or not humility and the effects of humility last over the long

00:32:57.000 term, meaning a leader shows humility in one instance, how long does that effect take to

00:33:03.240 wear off?

00:33:04.020 How long does the contagion leader to follow or contagion effect take?

00:33:09.440 So, there's also a lot that needs to be done with regard to training and developing humility.

00:33:15.360 And so, I think that's kind of where we're headed.

00:33:18.760 We do some leadership training and speaking, but we're in the process of getting some grants

00:33:25.600 in order to take a careful look at how to incorporate humility or help someone to embrace

00:33:32.880 it and use it effectively over the long term.

00:33:36.520 Well, Brad, this has been a great conversation.

00:33:38.060 Is there some place people can go to read the research you've done or check out what you've

00:33:41.760 been doing?

00:33:43.420 Yeah.

00:33:43.860 So, I think one of the best places to look is there's articles on Google Scholar that

00:33:50.420 you can look at, Leader Humility and Owens.

00:33:55.100 You can also just look at, I have a CV that has a list of all of the articles that have

00:34:01.540 been published in the popular press with regard to this Harvard Business Review, Inc.

00:34:05.820 Magazine, Huffington, Washington Post.

00:34:07.720 And so, those are some areas that people can go to to get more and deeper insight about

00:34:15.020 what we've been up to.

00:34:16.340 Fantastic.

00:34:16.640 We'll also link to those in our show notes.

00:34:18.460 Well, Brad Owens, thanks for your time.

00:34:19.600 It's been a pleasure.

00:34:20.660 Thank you.

00:34:21.660 My guest today was Brad Owens.

00:34:23.140 He's a professor of business ethics at BYU Marriott School of Business.

00:34:26.500 You can find all of his research on humility, narcissism, and leadership on Google Scholar.

00:34:30.540 We've included a list of links to all of his research on our show notes.

00:34:34.080 Make sure to check it out at aom.is slash humble narcissist.

00:34:44.900 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:34:47.740 Check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives, as

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The Art of Manliness - January 13, 2021

The Humble, Narcissistic Leader

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