The Art of Manliness - The Laws of Connection — The Scientific Secrets of Building Stronger Relationships

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett.

00:00:00.700 I wanna let you know that we're having an enrollment

00:00:02.400 for our summer cohort of The Strenuous Life

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00:00:07.520 The Strenuous Life is an online offline program

00:00:09.380 that we created to help you put into action

00:00:11.100 all the things we've been talking about

00:00:12.500 and writing about on AOM for the past 16 years.

00:00:15.140 And we've done that in a few ways.

00:00:16.720 First, we created 50 different badges

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00:00:19.960 There's hard skills like wilderness survival,

00:00:22.040 outdoorsmanship, knot tying, building fires,

00:00:24.600 but also soft skills like how to be a better host,

00:00:26.960 how to improve your social skills,

00:00:28.220 how to be a better husband, better father.

00:00:30.420 We also provide weekly challenges

00:00:31.780 that are gonna push you outside of your comfort zone,

00:00:33.820 mentally, physically, and socially.

00:00:36.200 We also provide daily accountability

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00:00:40.300 And every new member of The Strenuous Life

00:00:41.660 goes through what we call The Strenuous Life Challenge.

00:00:44.320 It's a 12-week bootcamp

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00:01:11.360 Strenuouslife.co, go check it out.

00:01:13.420 I hope to see you on The Strenuous Life.

00:01:15.180 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:01:24.620 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:01:26.900 Everyone has heard about the incredible benefits

00:01:28.760 that come to mind, body, and spirit

00:01:30.620 from having strong relationships.

00:01:32.640 The quality of our social ties has a huge impact

00:01:34.900 on our physical and mental health

00:01:36.360 and our overall feeling of flourishing.

00:01:38.600 Yet many people still struggle

00:01:39.960 to create these strong relationships in their lives

00:01:41.900 and often figure that things like weakening communities

00:01:44.440 and digital technology are to blame.

00:01:46.680 But my guest, David Robson,

00:01:48.320 says that the barriers to establishing bonds

00:01:49.900 with others may actually be more psychological

00:01:51.860 than physical.

00:01:53.000 And he shares research-backed tips

00:01:54.480 for breaking through them in his new book,

00:01:56.360 The Laws of Connection,

00:01:57.740 The Scientific Secrets of Building a Strong Social Network.

00:02:01.100 Today on the show,

00:02:01.920 David discusses how we can feel lonely

00:02:03.420 even when we're surrounded by people

00:02:04.840 if we don't have what he calls a shared reality.

00:02:07.820 We then discuss ways to build

00:02:09.040 that shared reality with others.

00:02:10.600 We talk about why frenemies are so bad for you,

00:02:13.000 how to overcome the liking gap,

00:02:14.700 why you might want to interrupt someone

00:02:15.920 to connect with them,

00:02:17.140 the need to be aware of the novelty penalty

00:02:18.900 in conversations,

00:02:20.220 why you should stop telling white lies, 0.68

00:02:21.920 and much more.

00:02:23.280 After the show's over,

00:02:24.100 check out our show notes at aom.is slash connection.

00:02:39.040 All right, David Robson,

00:02:40.600 welcome back to the show.

00:02:42.280 Thanks so much for having me.

00:02:43.720 So we had you on two years ago

00:02:45.260 to talk about your book,

00:02:46.300 The Expectation Effect,

00:02:47.620 which is about the placebo effect.

00:02:50.100 You got a new book out.

00:02:51.460 It's about the science of social connection.

00:02:55.220 You took a deep dive into

00:02:56.520 what makes us feel connected to others,

00:02:58.700 and then you offer these research-backed tips

00:03:01.960 on how we can improve our connection with others.

00:03:04.860 You start off the book talking about

00:03:06.280 the loneliness crisis

00:03:07.380 that people have been talking about

00:03:09.000 that's been happening in the United States

00:03:10.500 and other Western countries.

00:03:11.920 You have a fresh take

00:03:13.880 on the source of this loneliness crisis.

00:03:17.520 And you talk about it's the lack of shared reality.

00:03:20.900 So how is a lack of shared reality

00:03:22.980 behind our feeling of loneliness?

00:03:25.560 Right.

00:03:26.080 I mean, there's a lot of talk, you know,

00:03:28.320 on how like modern society

00:03:29.880 and new technologies

00:03:31.080 are kind of driving people apart.

00:03:33.400 And I'm sure there's certainly

00:03:35.740 an element of truth in that.

00:03:37.600 But the fact is, you know,

00:03:38.860 if you look at historic data from,

00:03:40.980 you know, what we know,

00:03:41.840 it seems that loneliness

00:03:42.920 has been a problem for humans

00:03:44.440 for a very long time.

00:03:46.400 And, you know, even if we think about

00:03:48.080 the people who surround us,

00:03:50.240 you know, celebrities,

00:03:51.260 like, you know, cultural references,

00:03:53.900 you can really see that people

00:03:55.740 can be surrounded by a lot of friends

00:03:58.520 or a lot of people,

00:03:59.900 but still feel pretty lonely.

00:04:02.160 So there's more to kind of

00:04:04.480 feeling social connection

00:04:05.620 than just having face-to-face contact

00:04:08.780 with a lot of people.

00:04:10.620 And what I propose

00:04:11.720 and what the scientific research suggests

00:04:13.720 is that, you know,

00:04:15.220 even when we're kind of

00:04:16.480 in conversation with someone,

00:04:17.900 we can often feel a sense

00:04:19.260 of existential isolation

00:04:21.440 because we lack a shared reality

00:04:23.580 with that person.

00:04:25.240 And put simply,

00:04:26.440 a shared reality is

00:04:28.100 the sense that the other person

00:04:29.940 is on the same wavelength as you.

00:04:31.940 So you feel that their thoughts,

00:04:33.440 their emotions,

00:04:34.300 their reactions to events

00:04:35.560 are very similar to your own.

00:04:38.180 That's really the basis

00:04:39.320 of our sense of social connection.

00:04:43.180 And too often we have

00:04:44.640 these psychological barriers

00:04:46.040 that prevent us from forming

00:04:47.580 that shared reality.

00:04:49.380 To give just a few examples,

00:04:51.400 you know, when we're in conversation,

00:04:53.160 our conversations can be so

00:04:54.720 kind of shallow and superficial

00:04:56.460 because we're too scared

00:04:57.680 of disclosing the things

00:04:59.480 that are most important to us

00:05:00.780 that we just don't give

00:05:01.880 the opportunity

00:05:02.620 for shared reality to develop.

00:05:05.400 So it could perfectly well be

00:05:06.980 that the other person

00:05:07.900 is really thinking

00:05:08.620 the same stuff

00:05:09.720 that you're thinking,

00:05:10.900 but you just,

00:05:11.840 neither of you say it.

00:05:12.940 So you feel that distance

00:05:14.920 even though there's that potential

00:05:16.700 for communication

00:05:17.640 and for connection.

00:05:19.240 And that's what

00:05:19.740 the laws of connection

00:05:20.600 is all about.

00:05:21.660 It's overcoming

00:05:22.380 those psychological barriers

00:05:23.720 so that we don't miss

00:05:25.340 all of these opportunities.

00:05:26.360 And actually what I really discovered

00:05:28.240 from all of the research

00:05:29.280 that I read

00:05:29.840 was that there are

00:05:30.620 so many opportunities

00:05:31.900 for us to feel

00:05:33.240 some meaningful connection

00:05:34.700 with the people around us.

00:05:36.420 And with just a few changes

00:05:37.560 to our mindset,

00:05:38.440 to our behavior,

00:05:39.240 to the content

00:05:40.100 of our conversations,

00:05:41.020 we can make the most

00:05:41.960 of those opportunities

00:05:42.940 and achieve our social potential.

00:05:45.540 Yeah, I love this idea

00:05:46.940 because as you said,

00:05:48.240 a lot of times

00:05:48.640 when people talk about

00:05:49.480 how do we solve

00:05:50.180 the loneliness crisis,

00:05:51.360 it's these really drastic

00:05:53.140 engineering our environment.

00:05:54.880 Well, we need to get people

00:05:55.940 more into face-to-face situations.

00:05:57.800 We need to redesign

00:05:58.540 our communities

00:05:59.440 or you tell people,

00:06:00.620 just get out there,

00:06:01.600 sign up for a rec league,

00:06:02.980 go to church

00:06:03.600 or something like that.

00:06:04.680 And all those things

00:06:05.700 are potentially good,

00:06:07.040 but it might not be

00:06:09.060 the solution.

00:06:10.160 It's not sufficient

00:06:11.380 because you can be around people

00:06:13.640 and you can still feel

00:06:15.340 completely lonely.

00:06:16.260 I mean, you see this

00:06:16.800 in relationships.

00:06:17.960 People, they just,

00:06:19.120 they're in their family

00:06:19.740 and they absolutely feel

00:06:20.800 alienated from their family.

00:06:22.220 And as you said,

00:06:22.680 it's because they just

00:06:23.820 don't feel like they're

00:06:24.380 on the same wavelength

00:06:25.640 as their family.

00:06:27.620 Right, exactly.

00:06:28.680 And you know,

00:06:29.240 like in today's

00:06:30.460 kind of social environment,

00:06:31.840 you could blame this

00:06:32.820 on say things

00:06:33.440 like political polarization.

00:06:35.280 And certainly like

00:06:36.060 sharing a similar worldview

00:06:37.820 is important

00:06:38.580 for shared reality,

00:06:39.760 but it can also be

00:06:40.460 something very intimate.

00:06:41.980 It could be that

00:06:42.560 the two of you

00:06:43.220 are sitting,

00:06:44.380 watching a film together

00:06:45.700 and one of you

00:06:46.920 is laughing

00:06:47.600 and finding it

00:06:48.180 absolutely hilarious

00:06:49.140 and the other person

00:06:50.240 is just totally

00:06:51.300 turned off by that film.

00:06:52.500 They just like,

00:06:53.140 don't get what's funny.

00:06:54.380 And that's a very

00:06:55.180 alienating experience

00:06:56.560 that creates

00:06:57.400 this sense of

00:06:58.220 existential isolation

00:06:59.760 because in that moment

00:07:00.680 you have no shared reality.

00:07:02.880 And conversely,

00:07:03.680 actually,

00:07:03.980 you can have a shared reality

00:07:04.920 with someone

00:07:05.420 who is thousands

00:07:06.700 of miles away.

00:07:07.820 Like I have a friend

00:07:08.700 who lives in DC.

00:07:11.140 I'm based in England,

00:07:12.400 but we grew up together

00:07:13.200 and he can just send me

00:07:14.280 like a GIF

00:07:15.200 on WhatsApp

00:07:16.180 and I know

00:07:17.600 that he's found it funny.

00:07:18.900 He knows that

00:07:19.580 I'll find it funny.

00:07:20.660 That creates

00:07:21.380 a sense of shared reality

00:07:22.580 in that moment

00:07:23.320 even though

00:07:23.960 we're not

00:07:24.840 in the same room.

00:07:26.380 And you highlight research

00:07:27.260 when people

00:07:27.840 have this shared reality

00:07:29.120 their brains

00:07:30.540 actually start

00:07:31.220 matching each other

00:07:32.140 in different ways.

00:07:34.000 Yeah,

00:07:34.200 that's what I love

00:07:34.840 about this whole topic

00:07:36.160 is that,

00:07:36.900 you know,

00:07:37.140 you can do

00:07:37.580 these psychological

00:07:38.280 questionnaires

00:07:39.120 where you measure

00:07:40.220 how much

00:07:40.820 shared reality

00:07:41.400 people experience

00:07:42.840 with another person

00:07:43.660 and,

00:07:44.180 you know,

00:07:44.300 that can be like

00:07:44.980 measured on,

00:07:46.260 you know,

00:07:46.440 whether you have

00:07:46.980 the sense

00:07:47.360 that you're

00:07:48.320 kind of thinking

00:07:48.820 the same thing,

00:07:49.580 do you kind of feel

00:07:50.340 that you've got

00:07:50.800 a shared stream

00:07:51.460 of consciousness,

00:07:52.200 do you finish

00:07:52.620 each other's sentences?

00:07:54.200 And we know

00:07:54.540 from those studies

00:07:56.080 that the sense

00:07:57.220 of shared reality

00:07:57.920 really is important

00:07:58.760 for our feelings

00:07:59.900 of closeness

00:08:00.680 and that,

00:08:02.140 you know,

00:08:02.420 it overrides

00:08:03.240 often kind of

00:08:04.380 broader superficial

00:08:05.340 similarities

00:08:06.060 between people,

00:08:07.620 for example,

00:08:08.800 like if they both

00:08:09.460 come from the same

00:08:10.140 hometown.

00:08:11.100 So we know

00:08:11.600 that this intimate

00:08:12.500 sense of sharing

00:08:13.700 our inner world

00:08:14.320 with someone

00:08:14.760 is important.

00:08:16.440 But then there's

00:08:16.980 a whole bunch

00:08:17.660 of studies

00:08:18.440 from neuroscience

00:08:19.120 that showed

00:08:19.740 that there's

00:08:20.300 literal truth

00:08:21.560 to the idea

00:08:22.140 that we're

00:08:22.520 on the same

00:08:23.540 wavelength as

00:08:24.360 someone when

00:08:24.800 we share

00:08:25.260 a reality

00:08:26.120 with them.

00:08:26.880 And basically

00:08:27.380 one of my

00:08:28.440 favourite studies

00:08:29.560 looked at,

00:08:31.160 got a bunch

00:08:31.700 of students

00:08:32.220 from this

00:08:32.780 kind of graduate

00:08:33.420 class at a

00:08:34.380 university

00:08:34.800 to watch

00:08:35.820 a series

00:08:36.700 of YouTube

00:08:37.260 clips.

00:08:37.840 So it could

00:08:38.060 be a music

00:08:38.500 video,

00:08:39.100 documentary,

00:08:39.860 a comedy

00:08:40.280 routine,

00:08:41.240 and they measured

00:08:41.780 their brain

00:08:42.240 activity as each

00:08:43.300 person watched

00:08:44.080 the clips.

00:08:45.240 And what they

00:08:45.600 found was that

00:08:46.180 the similarities

00:08:46.920 in the brain

00:08:48.240 activity to

00:08:49.400 the same

00:08:49.800 events could

00:08:50.840 predict how

00:08:51.500 close the

00:08:52.280 friendships were

00:08:52.980 between the

00:08:54.300 classmates,

00:08:54.980 whether they

00:08:55.540 were kind of

00:08:56.380 a direct

00:08:56.880 connection or

00:08:57.680 whether they

00:08:58.040 were more

00:08:58.380 of like a

00:08:59.760 kind of

00:09:00.260 an acquaintance

00:09:01.060 who you

00:09:01.340 might bump

00:09:02.040 into at

00:09:02.680 another friend's

00:09:03.260 party,

00:09:03.700 but you'd

00:09:03.940 never choose

00:09:04.540 to spend

00:09:04.920 time together.

00:09:06.500 And this

00:09:06.940 kind of

00:09:07.300 interbrain

00:09:07.880 synchrony is

00:09:08.760 called or

00:09:09.160 interbrain

00:09:09.600 coupling,

00:09:10.580 and that's

00:09:10.820 really the

00:09:11.380 neurological

00:09:12.000 foundation of

00:09:13.140 social connection.

00:09:14.900 Okay, so in

00:09:15.340 the course of

00:09:15.840 your research,

00:09:16.340 you developed

00:09:16.860 13 laws

00:09:18.240 that can

00:09:19.120 help you

00:09:19.980 develop more

00:09:21.020 shared reality

00:09:22.060 with people

00:09:22.600 around you.

00:09:23.600 I want to

00:09:23.980 talk about

00:09:24.260 some of

00:09:24.440 these laws

00:09:24.760 today.

00:09:25.600 The first

00:09:26.060 one is be

00:09:26.820 consistent in

00:09:27.600 your treatment

00:09:28.040 of others.

00:09:29.060 Avoid being

00:09:30.060 a stressful

00:09:30.880 frenemy.

00:09:32.260 I want to

00:09:32.460 talk about

00:09:32.660 that frenemy

00:09:33.180 part.

00:09:33.580 What is a

00:09:34.100 frenemy?

00:09:35.460 So a

00:09:36.060 frenemy is

00:09:36.900 or the

00:09:37.820 kind of

00:09:38.080 scientific

00:09:38.400 term for

00:09:39.240 a frenemy

00:09:39.740 is an

00:09:40.300 ambivalent

00:09:41.020 relationship.

00:09:42.640 And essentially

00:09:43.240 they're the

00:09:43.900 kind of people

00:09:44.540 who blow 0.75

00:09:45.840 hot and

00:09:46.340 cold.

00:09:47.020 They're

00:09:47.180 kind of

00:09:47.420 Jekyll and

00:09:47.860 Hyde

00:09:48.120 figures.

00:09:49.140 So you

00:09:49.920 might go

00:09:51.000 to them

00:09:51.340 one day

00:09:51.740 and they

00:09:52.240 act like

00:09:53.300 your best

00:09:53.680 friend,

00:09:54.100 like they

00:09:54.360 have your

00:09:54.720 best interests

00:09:55.480 at heart.

00:09:56.320 And then

00:09:56.580 the next

00:09:56.900 day they'll

00:09:57.920 ignore you

00:09:59.220 or lash

00:10:00.240 out because

00:10:00.720 they're feeling

00:10:01.200 jealous.

00:10:01.900 They're not

00:10:02.160 reliable.

00:10:03.180 They're not

00:10:03.460 consistent in

00:10:04.320 their behaviour.

00:10:05.540 Now there's

00:10:06.520 been a bunch

00:10:07.100 of longitudinal

00:10:08.040 studies that

00:10:09.080 have looked

00:10:09.540 at the

00:10:10.660 importance of

00:10:11.300 social networks

00:10:12.240 for our

00:10:12.940 health and

00:10:13.880 one way of

00:10:14.800 looking at

00:10:15.140 this is just

00:10:15.820 calculating how

00:10:16.880 many connections

00:10:17.520 you have and

00:10:18.140 it does seem

00:10:18.600 that people

00:10:18.960 with bigger

00:10:19.920 social networks

00:10:20.800 tend to be

00:10:21.660 healthier.

00:10:22.400 You know it

00:10:22.660 can be as

00:10:23.600 important the

00:10:24.320 size of your

00:10:24.800 social network

00:10:25.520 as things like

00:10:26.440 whether you

00:10:27.160 smoke or drink

00:10:27.800 or whether you

00:10:28.800 exercise regularly

00:10:29.820 how high your

00:10:31.520 BMI is.

00:10:32.920 But then it's

00:10:33.860 not just the

00:10:34.320 number it's the

00:10:35.180 quality of the

00:10:36.820 interactions with

00:10:37.800 people that you

00:10:38.500 have.

00:10:39.480 And what was

00:10:39.920 really surprising

00:10:40.740 to me was that

00:10:41.980 the ambivalent

00:10:44.160 friendships, the

00:10:45.900 frenemies who are

00:10:47.180 kind of good and

00:10:48.380 bad in equal

00:10:48.920 measure, they're

00:10:50.280 not just worse

00:10:51.420 than the people

00:10:52.020 who are wholly

00:10:53.120 supportive to you.

00:10:54.620 They can actually

00:10:55.220 be more stressful

00:10:56.180 than the people

00:10:57.140 who are purely

00:10:57.920 aversive.

00:10:58.780 Those relatives

00:11:00.100 for example or

00:11:01.140 that colleague at

00:11:02.080 work who's just

00:11:02.800 so consistently 0.72

00:11:03.980 nasty that you

00:11:05.080 just know to 0.86

00:11:05.940 avoid them.

00:11:07.140 And I think the

00:11:07.620 problem with the

00:11:08.200 frenemies is

00:11:08.840 that you feel

00:11:10.780 invested in the

00:11:11.560 relationship and

00:11:13.020 you kind of want

00:11:14.320 their approval.

00:11:15.660 And so when

00:11:16.400 there's this

00:11:16.920 uncertainty on how

00:11:18.120 they're going to

00:11:18.540 respond to you, it

00:11:19.380 actually hurts a

00:11:20.460 lot more.

00:11:21.360 And so there are

00:11:21.820 studies showing that

00:11:22.540 just knowing that

00:11:23.300 a frenemy, that

00:11:24.240 an ambivalent

00:11:24.920 relationship is

00:11:26.220 sitting in the

00:11:27.080 room next to

00:11:28.360 you and that

00:11:29.060 you're going to

00:11:29.660 have to interact

00:11:30.300 with them in a

00:11:30.920 few minutes, that

00:11:32.180 can make your

00:11:33.320 stress levels

00:11:34.040 sore.

00:11:34.580 It can actually

00:11:35.060 raise your blood

00:11:35.780 pressure just

00:11:36.360 knowing that

00:11:37.380 they're going to

00:11:37.820 be there and you

00:11:38.480 don't know how

00:11:38.940 they're going to

00:11:39.500 react.

00:11:40.360 Now the

00:11:40.960 conclusion of

00:11:41.640 this research is

00:11:42.520 obviously that we

00:11:43.860 should be more

00:11:44.740 mindful of the

00:11:45.520 people in our

00:11:46.020 social networks and

00:11:46.920 maybe keep a

00:11:48.040 distance from these

00:11:48.860 people who are not

00:11:50.540 good for our

00:11:51.180 well-being.

00:11:51.880 We probably don't

00:11:52.540 want to eliminate

00:11:53.180 all of them 0.90

00:11:53.920 altogether because

00:11:55.040 sometimes the good

00:11:55.780 outweighs the bad,

00:11:56.700 but an awareness of

00:11:58.280 those people and

00:11:59.580 their effects on our

00:12:00.300 well-being can at

00:12:01.080 least help us to

00:12:02.080 manage our

00:12:03.020 expectations and to

00:12:04.640 make sure that if

00:12:05.560 they stress us out

00:12:06.340 that we do

00:12:07.180 something to kind

00:12:07.960 of calm ourselves

00:12:08.860 afterwards and put

00:12:09.880 their behavior into

00:12:11.200 perspective.

00:12:12.160 But equally

00:12:12.700 important, we need

00:12:13.680 to avoid being

00:12:14.360 frenemies ourselves

00:12:15.420 and we could be

00:12:16.500 doing this without

00:12:17.220 realizing like maybe

00:12:18.300 it's just that you're

00:12:19.160 the kind of person

00:12:20.140 who is always late

00:12:21.620 and that leaves your

00:12:22.260 friend feeling

00:12:22.920 devalued or you

00:12:24.560 never respond to

00:12:25.280 their messages, you

00:12:26.240 forget their

00:12:26.700 birthday, you know,

00:12:27.320 all of these things.

00:12:28.500 We want to be

00:12:29.060 consistent.

00:12:29.680 If people really

00:12:30.280 matter to us, we

00:12:31.360 really want to show

00:12:32.160 that regularly and

00:12:33.480 consistently.

00:12:34.680 Okay, so that takes

00:12:35.080 some self-reflection

00:12:36.360 and you might even

00:12:37.440 have to ask your

00:12:38.040 friend, hey, am I

00:12:38.980 doing anything that

00:12:39.680 just really bothers

00:12:41.100 you and what can I

00:12:42.140 do to improve?

00:12:44.000 Right, exactly.

00:12:44.900 It's like asking, you

00:12:45.840 know, am I the 1.00

00:12:46.540 asshole in this 1.00

00:12:47.560 relationship? 0.99

00:12:48.560 You might not want

00:12:49.580 to hear what they

00:12:50.180 have to say, but

00:12:50.860 ultimately it's going

00:12:51.660 to help you to be a

00:12:52.660 better person if you

00:12:53.460 do.

00:12:54.600 Okay, so the second

00:12:55.320 law is create a

00:12:57.220 mutual understanding

00:12:58.180 with the people you

00:12:59.140 meet.

00:12:59.980 What are some tips

00:13:00.620 you found in your

00:13:01.360 research for how to

00:13:02.360 create a shared

00:13:03.280 reality with

00:13:03.920 someone by fostering

00:13:05.440 mutual understanding?

00:13:06.800 Just actually making

00:13:07.920 the effort to

00:13:08.840 verbalize your

00:13:10.040 feelings to the

00:13:10.720 other person is

00:13:11.580 hugely important.

00:13:12.760 So if they're

00:13:13.140 telling you something

00:13:14.540 that really mattered

00:13:15.220 to them in their

00:13:15.760 life, you know, it

00:13:16.320 could be like a

00:13:17.080 tragic event, it

00:13:17.800 could be something

00:13:18.280 that they're super

00:13:18.940 proud of, but just

00:13:20.120 verbalizing how you

00:13:21.340 feel for them, that

00:13:22.820 is something that we

00:13:23.580 sometimes forget to

00:13:24.700 do.

00:13:24.960 We might just assume

00:13:26.120 that they can kind

00:13:26.780 of read it from our

00:13:28.160 facial expression, our

00:13:29.040 body language, but

00:13:29.880 just saying it out

00:13:30.580 loud can be really

00:13:31.900 important.

00:13:32.380 And, you know, if

00:13:33.100 you're having joint

00:13:33.860 activity together, like

00:13:35.660 just to actually say

00:13:36.960 how much you're

00:13:37.520 enjoying it so that

00:13:38.440 they know that they're

00:13:39.340 not the only person

00:13:40.220 who's experiencing that

00:13:42.140 kind of exhilaration.

00:13:43.420 You know, that's one

00:13:44.860 way that we can do

00:13:45.680 this.

00:13:46.620 Another way that was

00:13:48.100 super surprising to me

00:13:49.280 was that you can often

00:13:52.160 achieve that neural

00:13:53.400 synchronization that is

00:13:55.440 kind of behind this

00:13:57.120 shared reality by changing

00:13:58.900 your kind of physiological

00:14:00.480 experience.

00:14:02.320 So, rhythmic activities

00:14:04.200 when you're moving or

00:14:05.960 singing in time with

00:14:07.280 other people, so, you

00:14:08.620 know, going to karaoke,

00:14:10.100 dancing, these are very

00:14:11.340 effective bonding

00:14:12.440 activities because they're

00:14:14.100 synchronizing your

00:14:14.920 brainwaves.

00:14:15.820 And so, fundamentally,

00:14:17.180 you know that that other

00:14:17.920 person is living in the

00:14:19.360 kind of physical world in

00:14:20.500 the present moment,

00:14:21.700 experiencing exactly the

00:14:22.960 same sensations that you

00:14:24.220 are.

00:14:24.720 That's been proven to be

00:14:26.080 really good for

00:14:27.300 establishing a bond

00:14:28.340 between strangers and

00:14:29.640 between people who know

00:14:31.080 each other.

00:14:31.920 All of these experiments,

00:14:32.940 you know, show that when

00:14:33.620 people kind of dance

00:14:34.980 together, they become more

00:14:36.180 altruistic to one another,

00:14:37.580 they feel closer, they're

00:14:38.960 more likely to share their

00:14:40.860 secrets with each other.

00:14:42.240 It's very, very powerful.

00:14:44.360 And it doesn't have, you

00:14:45.220 know, if dancing's not your

00:14:46.200 thing, if singing's not your

00:14:47.180 thing, something like, you

00:14:48.760 know, going to a chili

00:14:49.560 eating contest together, if

00:14:51.240 that's what, like, you and

00:14:52.840 your friend enjoy, you know,

00:14:54.280 experiencing that kind of

00:14:56.080 pleasurable pain together,

00:14:57.800 that is also a good way of

00:14:59.180 establishing this kind of

00:15:00.780 momentary shared reality

00:15:02.280 that can then, you know,

00:15:03.900 just ease your interaction

00:15:05.080 and maybe you can develop

00:15:06.680 that into some more

00:15:08.100 meaningful relationship, a

00:15:09.700 more lasting relationship.

00:15:11.300 Yeah, the sociologist

00:15:12.060 Emile Durkheim called that

00:15:13.220 collective effervescence

00:15:14.480 when you felt you're

00:15:15.560 connected with everyone

00:15:16.480 when you're dancing.

00:15:17.520 Okay, so do things together

00:15:18.780 that require synchronized

00:15:21.060 movement.

00:15:21.440 So dance, play music

00:15:22.820 together, you can even do

00:15:24.420 comedy or improv with each

00:15:26.020 other.

00:15:26.460 And then I like that

00:15:27.180 other idea.

00:15:27.600 It's very simple.

00:15:28.880 Just validate the thoughts

00:15:30.120 of other people.

00:15:30.780 If they say something and

00:15:32.340 you agree with it, like,

00:15:33.980 say so.

00:15:34.600 And don't just assume that

00:15:35.360 they know that you agree.

00:15:36.860 And we talked about, like,

00:15:37.700 what it feels like when

00:15:38.720 you've created that mutual

00:15:39.520 understanding.

00:15:40.360 It can actually feel, I

00:15:41.840 mean, it feels like you're

00:15:42.420 on the same wavelength, but

00:15:43.620 then you also highlight

00:15:44.640 research, and I think people

00:15:45.920 might experience this as

00:15:46.840 well.

00:15:47.480 There's a sense of self-

00:15:48.440 expansion.

00:15:48.920 Like, you feel like you're

00:15:50.360 getting bigger whenever you

00:15:52.200 have created the shared

00:15:53.560 reality with someone.

00:15:54.320 Talk to us about that idea

00:15:55.120 of self-expansion.

00:15:57.100 Yeah, self-expansion is

00:15:58.680 super important.

00:15:59.940 So, you know, even after

00:16:01.180 you've clicked with someone,

00:16:02.660 even, you know, if you've

00:16:03.800 spent a lot of time with

00:16:05.140 them, you share the same

00:16:06.180 interests.

00:16:07.060 The most successful

00:16:07.900 relationships are the ones

00:16:09.560 that also allow each party

00:16:11.260 to grow.

00:16:12.160 And, you know, that's as

00:16:13.080 true with platonic

00:16:14.060 relationships as it is with

00:16:16.020 romantic relationships.

00:16:17.280 It's not restricted to the

00:16:19.300 particular kind of connection

00:16:21.700 you have with someone.

00:16:23.280 We just want to surround

00:16:24.300 ourselves with people who

00:16:25.800 are encouraging us to kind

00:16:28.120 of exit our comfort zone in

00:16:30.320 some way.

00:16:31.320 Now, they could do that

00:16:32.340 purely by being themselves.

00:16:34.500 Perhaps they're just

00:16:35.180 bringing a whole new range

00:16:37.280 of knowledge and

00:16:37.980 perspectives that you never

00:16:39.900 had yourself.

00:16:41.260 So, you know, maybe your

00:16:42.120 backgrounds are just so

00:16:42.960 different that actually they

00:16:44.280 always help you to see the

00:16:45.800 world in a slightly different

00:16:47.560 way, that they always have a

00:16:48.700 new insight to bring.

00:16:50.580 That's one form of self

00:16:51.680 expansion.

00:16:52.520 It could be that they

00:16:53.320 encourage you to do

00:16:54.260 activities that you wouldn't

00:16:56.280 have tried before.

00:16:57.120 You know, maybe it's like they

00:16:58.620 practice a different sport and

00:17:00.640 they help you to do the same

00:17:01.880 or, you know, they're a real

00:17:03.500 foodie and they're kind of

00:17:05.380 taking you, encouraging you

00:17:06.940 to go to like new

00:17:08.040 restaurants to try like

00:17:09.800 different gastronomic

00:17:10.920 experiences.

00:17:12.240 It could be that you both do

00:17:13.260 stargazing together.

00:17:14.440 Like, you know, there's so many

00:17:15.700 ways that you can create

00:17:17.280 self expansion within a

00:17:18.880 friendship or a romantic

00:17:20.020 relationship.

00:17:21.160 But it's really fundamental to

00:17:22.740 to making sure that your

00:17:24.540 shared reality doesn't

00:17:25.740 grow stale.

00:17:28.140 Another law that you have

00:17:29.660 you talk about in the book

00:17:30.660 is trust that others on

00:17:32.720 average will like you as

00:17:34.040 much as you like them.

00:17:35.360 And this law seeks to

00:17:37.080 resolve a problem of

00:17:38.340 socializing called the

00:17:40.060 liking gap.

00:17:40.960 What is the liking gap?

00:17:42.940 So the liking gap is a very

00:17:46.100 common phenomenon that I

00:17:48.240 think we've all experienced

00:17:49.400 as some of us experience it

00:17:51.140 more than others.

00:17:52.180 And it's the fact that when

00:17:53.340 you meet a new

00:17:55.060 acquaintance for the first

00:17:56.160 time, you can have a

00:17:58.380 great conversation.

00:17:59.940 Now you can really hit it

00:18:00.940 off like you're laughing at

00:18:01.960 the same stuff.

00:18:02.960 You have the same interests.

00:18:04.680 You really find that other

00:18:06.160 person fascinating.

00:18:07.600 But when you go away from

00:18:08.600 that conversation, you start

00:18:10.440 to experience these doubts.

00:18:11.840 You start to think that, you

00:18:13.380 know, maybe I said a faux

00:18:14.940 par, maybe I was a bit

00:18:15.900 boring at this point of

00:18:17.180 the conversation.

00:18:18.360 You come away, despite your

00:18:20.120 good experience, assuming

00:18:21.500 that the other person

00:18:23.280 didn't like you as much as

00:18:25.180 you liked the other person.

00:18:27.120 You just underestimate how

00:18:29.140 appealing you were.

00:18:30.680 The research shows that the

00:18:31.640 liking gap, you know, is

00:18:32.480 probably happening to both

00:18:33.580 parties.

00:18:34.220 So each person within that

00:18:35.920 conversation is going away

00:18:37.360 thinking the same thing,

00:18:38.580 that the other person just

00:18:40.320 didn't like them as much as

00:18:41.420 they liked the other person.

00:18:42.700 And you can see how this can

00:18:44.420 drive people apart, because

00:18:46.340 if you have that kind of

00:18:48.100 anxiety, you're less likely

00:18:49.480 to capitalize on that

00:18:50.840 interaction afterwards.

00:18:52.220 You're less likely to arrange

00:18:53.420 to meet up a second time,

00:18:55.380 to go out for a drink, to

00:18:56.660 get a coffee, to maybe

00:18:57.800 engage in some kind of

00:18:59.120 creative collaboration if

00:19:00.660 it's at work.

00:19:01.600 And the sad thing about the

00:19:02.680 liking gap is that it

00:19:04.160 lingers for quite a while.

00:19:05.620 So one study looked at

00:19:07.480 university suite mates, you

00:19:09.560 know, who were living

00:19:10.140 together, should have got to

00:19:12.220 know each other pretty well.

00:19:13.600 But they found that even

00:19:14.540 after, you know, seven or

00:19:15.620 eight months, these

00:19:16.520 suite mates still had this

00:19:17.700 liking gap.

00:19:18.220 They still weren't

00:19:18.960 confident that the other

00:19:19.880 person liked them as much

00:19:20.940 as they liked the other

00:19:22.060 person.

00:19:22.980 And if we want to build

00:19:24.180 better relationships more

00:19:25.820 quickly, we want to kind of

00:19:27.300 overcome that liking gap

00:19:28.660 after the first few

00:19:30.180 meetings.

00:19:31.480 So it sounds like the

00:19:32.300 liking gap is maybe you

00:19:34.300 established a shared

00:19:35.120 reality with someone, but

00:19:36.220 then after the fact, you

00:19:37.440 you start questioning it.

00:19:39.660 Yeah.

00:19:39.860 Yeah.

00:19:40.380 Yeah.

00:19:41.120 Yeah.

00:19:41.380 You start, I mean, you

00:19:42.540 kind of allowed that shared

00:19:43.640 reality to crumble because

00:19:44.960 you start to think that what

00:19:46.880 you perceived was not what

00:19:48.080 the other person perceived.

00:19:49.240 You don't trust that

00:19:50.060 actually those feelings of

00:19:51.320 closeness were real and

00:19:53.140 true for each party.

00:19:55.160 And this liking gap is more

00:19:56.500 common for introverts than

00:19:58.040 extroverts.

00:19:59.060 Another thing about

00:19:59.920 introverts is that they

00:20:01.060 think or they predict that

00:20:03.160 they will enjoy a social

00:20:04.900 interaction less than they

00:20:06.900 actually do.

00:20:07.720 So I'm not doubting that

00:20:09.400 there are like meaningful

00:20:11.060 fundamental differences

00:20:12.240 between introverts and

00:20:14.220 extroverts and the kind of

00:20:15.960 situations that they might

00:20:17.240 find most kind of

00:20:18.520 recharging or restorative.

00:20:20.500 But in general, introverts

00:20:22.480 tend to have more pessimistic

00:20:24.320 assumptions about social

00:20:26.300 events.

00:20:27.420 They're more likely than

00:20:28.340 extroverts to assume that

00:20:30.140 they're just not going to

00:20:31.340 enjoy an interaction with a

00:20:32.880 stranger that is going to be

00:20:34.360 exhausting and awkward and

00:20:36.220 embarrassing and that

00:20:37.540 they'll come away feeling a

00:20:38.600 lot worse than they did

00:20:39.500 before the interaction.

00:20:41.160 But what the research shows

00:20:42.160 is that when you compare

00:20:44.000 introverts and extroverts

00:20:45.440 after an interaction, they

00:20:47.540 both actually find these

00:20:48.840 social engagements really

00:20:49.840 meaningful and enjoyable.

00:20:52.060 So those introvert 1.00

00:20:53.320 expectations just aren't as

00:20:55.140 well calibrated as they are

00:20:57.020 for the extroverts.

00:20:58.600 Yeah, I've experienced that.

00:21:00.600 I'm an introvert.

00:21:01.440 I write for a living.

00:21:02.620 I do my podcast.

00:21:03.540 My podcast views, my

00:21:04.500 closets.

00:21:05.040 I'm just at my house all the

00:21:06.440 time.

00:21:07.420 And so when there's an

00:21:08.160 opportunity to socialize, I

00:21:09.440 always have like, oh, I'm

00:21:10.260 not, it's going to, I'm

00:21:11.300 going to be really

00:21:11.760 exhausted.

00:21:12.320 I'm not going to be very

00:21:13.060 good.

00:21:13.420 And then I do it and I feel

00:21:14.720 great.

00:21:15.060 That was awesome.

00:21:15.960 I don't know.

00:21:16.260 Have you had that same

00:21:17.180 experience as a writer?

00:21:19.440 Yeah, all the time.

00:21:20.280 But I mean, especially I

00:21:21.700 think after the COVID

00:21:23.180 pandemic lockdowns that we had

00:21:24.760 in England, it was like I'd

00:21:26.800 forgotten kind of how to, you

00:21:28.980 know, only temporarily, only

00:21:30.140 for like the first few

00:21:30.880 meetings, but I really felt

00:21:31.960 like I was worried that I'd

00:21:33.360 forgotten my social skills

00:21:34.960 and how to interact with

00:21:36.220 people.

00:21:37.120 And then, you know, once I

00:21:38.580 had those conversations, it

00:21:39.860 was great, but it took, you

00:21:41.360 know, maybe a few weeks for

00:21:42.800 me to kind of fully feel

00:21:45.220 engaged again to the same

00:21:46.640 degree that I had before the

00:21:48.660 pandemic.

00:21:49.480 And this actually comes out in

00:21:50.900 the research quite nicely,

00:21:52.800 that to overcome phenomena

00:21:53.960 like the liking gap and that

00:21:55.640 those kind of official

00:21:56.760 nerves about meeting

00:21:58.000 strangers.

00:21:58.940 Anyone can do it, no matter

00:21:59.980 what our personality, but you

00:22:01.740 do need to put in practice.

00:22:02.880 So you have to, you know,

00:22:04.600 make it a kind of intention

00:22:06.580 every day to try to speak to

00:22:08.880 someone that you don't know.

00:22:10.000 And then after just one week,

00:22:11.500 you'll find that your

00:22:12.460 expectations are much better

00:22:13.840 calibrated, that you feel

00:22:15.540 more confident about enjoying

00:22:17.620 those interactions and more

00:22:18.760 confident in your ability to

00:22:20.600 conduct those interactions

00:22:22.180 with fluency.

00:22:23.460 You just need the experience.

00:22:24.720 But if you let it go by for a

00:22:27.320 few weeks or months without

00:22:28.720 kind of pushing yourself in

00:22:30.640 that way, the nerves and the

00:22:32.120 fear, they're going to kind of

00:22:33.120 creep back and you're just

00:22:34.900 going to have to kind of warm

00:22:36.020 up again before you feel that

00:22:37.540 same confidence.

00:22:38.460 Yeah. And you say that Jane

00:22:40.300 Austin's Pride and Prejudice can

00:22:42.860 teach us this principle of

00:22:45.040 needing to take an intentional

00:22:47.740 approach to developing our social

00:22:49.560 skills.

00:22:50.460 Right. I mean, there's a great

00:22:53.300 scene between Mr. Darcy and

00:22:55.680 Elizabeth Bennett, who is kind of

00:22:58.580 his love interest, even though they

00:23:00.240 don't realize it at the time.

00:23:01.560 And, you know, she is basically

00:23:05.320 pointing out the fact that he just

00:23:07.180 doesn't speak to people at parties

00:23:08.900 and he's like very standoffish and

00:23:10.900 it seems to her very rude in the

00:23:13.180 fact that he'll just kind of keep

00:23:14.220 to his group and he just makes no

00:23:15.920 effort.

00:23:16.820 And he says something like, well, I

00:23:18.500 just don't have the ability that

00:23:20.520 you have to to make small talk and

00:23:22.960 to connect with people.

00:23:24.600 And she's playing the piano at the

00:23:26.340 time and she says, well, I'm not a

00:23:27.760 great pianist, but I don't pretend

00:23:29.520 that that's just like inherent

00:23:32.080 within me.

00:23:32.880 I'm not a great pianist because I

00:23:34.260 just don't put in as much practice

00:23:35.740 as all of the other girls who can 0.99

00:23:37.300 play much better than me.

00:23:38.820 And, you know, maybe your kind of

00:23:40.700 social awkwardness is just part of

00:23:42.880 the fact that you just have never

00:23:44.740 tried to practice.

00:23:46.360 And that's really what the science

00:23:48.680 demonstrates for us is that, you

00:23:50.860 know, you put in the practice and

00:23:52.420 you reap rewards in just the same way

00:23:54.400 that you would with learning a

00:23:55.960 musical instrument, that these skills

00:23:58.040 don't necessarily come naturally

00:23:59.460 to anyone, but we're all much

00:24:01.460 better than we think.

00:24:02.460 If only we we try hard to to put

00:24:05.360 ourselves in the kinds of

00:24:06.320 situations where we need to use

00:24:07.900 those skills.

00:24:09.320 Yeah, I love that scene.

00:24:10.100 That was a very incisive insight

00:24:12.160 from Jane Austen.

00:24:13.040 I really like that a lot.

00:24:14.740 We're going to take a quick break

00:24:15.440 for your words from our sponsors.

00:24:21.460 And now back to the show.

00:24:23.380 So in the book, you also talk about

00:24:24.800 how conversation can help us create

00:24:27.380 and nurture shared realities with

00:24:29.420 others.

00:24:30.060 How can we better use conversations

00:24:32.560 to create that shared reality?

00:24:35.440 Right.

00:24:36.020 I mean, again, there are like these

00:24:38.060 psychological barriers where we might

00:24:40.380 be trying our hardest to connect and

00:24:42.040 often we are successful, but we're

00:24:43.820 maybe not doing it as well as we could

00:24:46.420 be.

00:24:47.420 One of the problems that a lot of people

00:24:49.440 have is that they just don't ask

00:24:51.280 enough of the right questions in a

00:24:53.660 conversation.

00:24:54.180 So I think it's quite well known that,

00:24:56.120 you know, you should ask questions to

00:24:57.420 achieve a shared reality.

00:24:59.740 But the problem is that when people

00:25:02.320 take that advice, they can often do it

00:25:04.120 quite kind of algorithmically, like

00:25:06.000 robotically.

00:25:07.200 And they're just kind of it's almost

00:25:08.300 like an interview.

00:25:09.040 They've got like a list of things like

00:25:10.200 what professions you do, like where

00:25:11.620 did you go to school, where do you

00:25:13.220 live, like, you know, what family do

00:25:15.780 you have, you know, all of these

00:25:17.340 things.

00:25:17.860 But each question isn't really building

00:25:19.600 on the other ones.

00:25:20.600 It's just like a stream of new

00:25:21.960 questions.

00:25:22.500 Now, that's fine.

00:25:24.320 It's certainly better than just those

00:25:25.820 kind of icebreakers of like, hey, how

00:25:29.040 are you doing?

00:25:29.760 And it's better than this habit that

00:25:31.560 some people have, which is like, hey,

00:25:34.040 how's work going?

00:25:34.680 Anyway, I got a great promotion and I

00:25:36.380 was given this huge bonus where you

00:25:38.120 just use the question as an excuse to

00:25:40.540 turn the conversation back to

00:25:42.360 yourself.

00:25:42.960 So those are bad questions.

00:25:44.280 But the best questions are the ones

00:25:45.740 that ask the other person to open up

00:25:47.880 and then build on what they've just

00:25:49.160 said.

00:25:49.460 So kind of follow up questions that

00:25:51.700 really make an effort to dig deep

00:25:53.940 into into this experience that they've

00:25:56.180 shared with you.

00:25:57.580 Any examples of questions that are

00:25:58.880 really good for digging deep and

00:26:00.640 establishing that shared reality with

00:26:02.500 somebody?

00:26:03.620 Yeah.

00:26:03.900 I mean, you know, to say you are just

00:26:05.460 getting to know someone, it's reasonable

00:26:07.280 to say, like, you know, what's your

00:26:08.560 profession?

00:26:09.040 What do you do for your day job?

00:26:10.940 Then, you know, if they tell you they're

00:26:12.200 like a lawyer or scientist or whatever,

00:26:14.340 just asking them like, well, you know, why

00:26:16.400 did you choose that profession or what does

00:26:18.200 it involve?

00:26:18.900 Like, what's your favorite part of that

00:26:20.800 profession?

00:26:21.300 What's the worst part of it?

00:26:23.140 You know, just showing that you have a

00:26:24.700 genuine curiosity in what they're saying

00:26:27.840 is hugely flattering.

00:26:29.340 And it's just building that shared reality

00:26:31.560 by kind of constructing all these details

00:26:34.040 that allow you to understand their life

00:26:36.000 better.

00:26:36.740 And from your reactions, you're allowing

00:26:38.960 them to understand where you're coming

00:26:40.420 from and how you feel about these

00:26:42.600 different topics.

00:26:44.640 You also talk about there's some research

00:26:45.940 saying that in order to establish a

00:26:48.360 shared reality with someone during a

00:26:49.840 conversation, you may need to interrupt

00:26:52.320 them, which goes against the advice you

00:26:54.880 hear about, like, oh, don't interrupt

00:26:56.100 people, just listen.

00:26:57.240 Maybe you do some nodding and ha-ha

00:26:59.280 while you're listening, but you don't

00:27:00.680 interrupt.

00:27:01.360 Tell us about this research because I

00:27:02.440 thought it was really counterintuitive.

00:27:04.540 So, I mean, the way we show attention to

00:27:06.780 someone else is really important for

00:27:08.460 establishing a shared reality.

00:27:10.020 Now, a lot of us rely too much on what's

00:27:13.900 known as paralinguistic cues.

00:27:16.300 So, that's things like murmuring a scent,

00:27:19.020 like, mm-hmm, uh-huh, yeah, or, you know,

00:27:21.220 nodding along, you know, that kind of body

00:27:23.120 language.

00:27:24.120 We think because we know that we're

00:27:25.960 listening that the other person is going

00:27:27.740 to read those cues as they were intended.

00:27:30.740 But the fact is, it's, like, really easy to

00:27:34.140 fake those cues.

00:27:35.960 If you're not concentrating, you can just, like,

00:27:37.740 murmur a scent every few minutes, and it's

00:27:40.400 really difficult to tell whether you were

00:27:41.760 listening or not.

00:27:43.380 So, what's much better is to demonstrate

00:27:45.820 actively that you're engaged with what

00:27:48.240 they're saying.

00:27:48.720 So, it could be paraphrasing what they've

00:27:50.820 just told you, asking one of those follow-up

00:27:52.960 questions, but then the super surprising

00:27:55.400 thing is that interruptions are actually a

00:27:57.700 really useful way of demonstrating your

00:27:59.980 interest and curiosity.

00:28:01.660 If you're finishing their sentences, or, you

00:28:04.060 know, when they pause because they don't quite

00:28:05.580 know what to say, and you interrupt to ask

00:28:08.820 them to continue, or to kind of guess what

00:28:11.480 they were going to say, you know, that shows

00:28:13.300 that you're really engaged, and that's

00:28:14.860 actually very flattering.

00:28:16.420 Now, obviously, not all interruptions are

00:28:18.640 equal, so if you're interrupting someone to

00:28:20.820 completely change the topic, that's super

00:28:23.920 insulting, like that's never going to work.

00:28:26.420 But yeah, if you're interrupting because it's

00:28:28.700 a sign of your genuine curiosity and passion for

00:28:31.220 what they're saying, you know, we don't have to

00:28:33.200 listen to the etiquette guides, that is going to

00:28:35.580 be a way of forging this connection.

00:28:38.980 You also talk about the novelty penalty in

00:28:41.080 conversation.

00:28:41.680 What's that?

00:28:42.700 Yeah, that's super counterintuitive to me, and

00:28:45.380 it's the fact that when we're listening to other

00:28:48.660 people, or they are listening to us, we all have a

00:28:51.900 preference for hearing about something that we

00:28:54.540 already know, a topic that's already familiar.

00:28:58.740 And so, if you talk about something that isn't in the

00:29:01.480 other person's life, so it's totally novel, that's

00:29:04.820 when you have the novelty penalty, they just don't

00:29:07.080 feel the same level of connection to you through

00:29:10.020 that.

00:29:10.860 I think it's very common when we're talking about

00:29:13.680 our kind of holidays, if the other person hasn't

00:29:16.740 been to the location that we're talking about, they

00:29:19.340 can feel very alienated and bored by the conversation

00:29:22.180 very quickly, because it's just difficult for them to

00:29:25.120 grab hold of.

00:29:26.620 Now, one of the reasons this happens is partly

00:29:28.400 that our storytelling abilities just maybe aren't as

00:29:33.120 well-developed as they could be.

00:29:36.300 So, you know, you're leaving too many gaps in the

00:29:40.200 conversation in your descriptions that make it very

00:29:44.440 hard for them to really get a handle on what was so

00:29:46.920 exciting or fun or interesting about your experience and

00:29:50.540 why it mattered to you.

00:29:52.340 And so, actually, to overcome the novelty penalty, it's

00:29:55.400 often better to embellish our stories a little bit more than

00:29:57.960 we would naturally do.

00:29:59.300 And I don't mean embellish with, like, you know, false

00:30:02.140 details, but I just mean, like, fill in those gaps, be a bit

00:30:05.480 more emotional in what you're saying.

00:30:07.180 Like, if something, like, completely changed your life by

00:30:11.160 having an experience, make that clear.

00:30:13.340 Actually explicitly say what it was that was so

00:30:16.220 transformative about the experience.

00:30:18.300 That just allows the other person to see inside your mind.

00:30:23.220 And that's really what is a shared reality is when people

00:30:26.180 can see inside each other's minds and really get to know

00:30:28.800 what's actually making you tick and what's actually

00:30:30.840 motivating you.

00:30:32.360 And I guess if you're listening to someone tell us a story and

00:30:36.000 the novelty penalty is kicking in for you, like you're just

00:30:38.620 like bored, I think the solution to that would be ask

00:30:41.100 questions to flesh out those emotional details.

00:30:44.500 Right.

00:30:45.040 That's it.

00:30:45.420 I think like, you know, we should be really humble about

00:30:47.860 this and rather than just assuming that the other person is

00:30:50.860 really boring or getting irritated, like we should think

00:30:53.740 that maybe this is a reflection on us and that actually maybe

00:30:57.240 we're not asking the right questions or leading the

00:31:00.020 conversation in the way that will allow them to tell us why

00:31:03.380 that experience was so important to them and why they think

00:31:06.020 it's worth sharing with us.

00:31:08.560 So oftentimes in a relationship to maintain it, we might tell

00:31:12.980 white lies.

00:31:13.900 We basically tell something untruthful to not hurt the other 0.77

00:31:16.500 person's feelings.

00:31:18.460 So, you know, typical one, hey, what'd you think of this food I

00:31:21.620 made?

00:31:22.020 And you're like, oh, it was so good.

00:31:23.420 And you're thinking, well, actually I thought it was gross.

00:31:25.920 What does the research say about how that affects relationships?

00:31:29.060 I mean, there are very few situations where dishonesty pays off in

00:31:34.500 relationships.

00:31:35.560 It's pretty much limited, actually, like a white lie can be beneficial 0.99

00:31:39.720 and is kind of acceptable if the other person has no opportunity to

00:31:44.740 respond to that feedback constructively.

00:31:47.200 So the obvious example is if you have like a bride or groom on their

00:31:51.920 wedding day and they're just about to kind of walk down the aisle and

00:31:56.080 they look pretty awful for some reason and there's nothing they can do about

00:31:59.860 it.

00:32:00.060 Like they can't manage to get a new suit, a new dress.

00:32:02.400 They can't manage to redo their hair.

00:32:03.960 Hearing that news is only going to make them feel a lot worse and be less

00:32:08.400 confident.

00:32:09.440 You know, then it's fine to tell a white lie. 0.88

00:32:13.540 But in almost every other situation, people really respond well to the negative

00:32:18.400 feedback much, much more than we would expect.

00:32:21.200 And that's because people value honesty so much, because honesty is so essential

00:32:26.120 for that shared reality.

00:32:27.280 If you start to question whether the other person is really telling you the

00:32:31.280 truth, all of the shared reality that you've constructed together starts to

00:32:35.500 feel like this kind of illusion, this mirage that might disappear.

00:32:39.100 So, you know, even if you have negative feedback, don't be afraid to share it.

00:32:43.800 Just make sure that you are, firstly, you're being honest.

00:32:46.940 Secondly, that you're being nuanced.

00:32:48.540 So don't make sweeping statements, but try to be very specific in, you know, what

00:32:53.760 you liked, what you didn't like on their project, for example, and try to offer your

00:32:58.540 own kind of support and resources to help them to make the changes that they need.

00:33:03.800 So, you know, if you're talking about a work project, offering to go out for coffee

00:33:08.500 with the person to kind of talk it through and to impart your expertise, that's going

00:33:12.300 to mean that the negative feedback is much better received and it's going to help

00:33:16.560 them to feel less stressed about the whole thing.

00:33:19.760 But there have been studies where, like, researchers got students to either go out

00:33:25.540 into the world for a few days and to be as kind as possible to all the people that they

00:33:30.560 met.

00:33:30.880 You know, kindness was their number one objective.

00:33:34.360 Or they asked them to be honest.

00:33:36.560 So totally honest, even when it was uncomfortable, even when they might have naturally told those

00:33:41.560 white lies. And what they found was that actually both groups performed equally well.

00:33:47.280 They found similar benefits to their well-being compared to a control group who just carried

00:33:52.160 on as normal. And actually, those who had the honest conversations, they often reported

00:33:57.440 like feeling greater meaning in their interactions.

00:34:00.800 Like even when there was the discomfort, they felt that they got to know the other person

00:34:04.960 better and the other person got to know them better because they'd been brave enough

00:34:09.380 to tell them the truth.

00:34:11.120 It has reminded me of a scene. So we just got done in our family. We just got done watching

00:34:16.240 Little Women. Have you seen the most recent one from 2019 with? 0.99

00:34:21.100 Yeah, yeah. Greta Gerwig's.

00:34:22.460 Yeah, yeah. She directed it. So it's that scene where Joe, the heroine of the story,

00:34:27.400 writes this novel and she presents it to this guy, Friedrich, who she kind of likes and he likes

00:34:33.060 her. And he reads it and he's like, this is awful. And she's like, what are you talking about? It's

00:34:39.800 like, no, it's just not good. I don't think it's good. And then she got really defensive. Like,

00:34:43.560 you think I'm a bad writer? He's like, no, I don't think you're a bad writer. I just,

00:34:46.020 I think what you wrote was not good. And in the short term, it kind of hurt the relationship.

00:34:51.520 Like she got all in a huff and she left. But in the end, it seemed like it was the right thing to do

00:34:57.360 because they ended up creating that shared reality.

00:35:00.580 Yeah, exactly. And so that's it. Sometimes like you might get a negative reaction initially because

00:35:05.940 the other person needs to calm down and to process what you've said. But you know, according to these

00:35:10.980 studies, ultimately, it does bring you closer together to be honest. I don't think this means

00:35:17.260 that we, it gives us like an excuse to just be rude or tactless. I think there's always going to be

00:35:23.080 a much kinder way of kind of telling the brutal truth than just saying it in the kind of nastiest

00:35:29.120 way possible. Like there's always a way that you can make your words like really emphasize how much

00:35:33.620 you care about the other person and your honest intentions for doing so. The purity of your

00:35:38.560 intentions to help the other person. But yeah, mostly like just having that bravery, it's going to pay

00:35:44.760 off for you and the other person. It's going to help them to achieve their goals better. And it's going

00:35:49.120 to help you as a kind of dyad, like as friends or as in a relationship, it's going to help you to grow as

00:35:55.900 well.

00:35:57.560 So another thing that can get in the way of relationships is the emotion of envy. I think

00:36:03.100 this is a really fascinating topic. We did a podcast last year about the philosophy of envy with Sarah

00:36:08.640 Protassi. And she described envy as this aversive feeling when somebody, could be even a friend, has

00:36:15.820 something that you don't have, but you want and you feel bad. How do people typically manage envy in a

00:36:23.260 relationship?

00:36:25.060 So I don't think we manage it very well. So often, our fear of provoking envy in the other person

00:36:32.800 just leads us to not share the things that we're really proud of, like the stuff that's given us

00:36:38.180 joy. That's been shown in like multiple surveys that people will just keep it quiet if they've got

00:36:43.560 promotion or, you know, if they've received a bonus, if they're, you know, if they're super proud,

00:36:48.820 even like a personal best at the gym or by the number of like Twitter followers that they've just

00:36:54.500 received, like it's kind of part of their personal reality. They want to be able to share that with the

00:37:01.000 people that are closest to them, but they avoid doing it because they don't want to seem like some 0.64

00:37:06.220 kind of blowhard, like some kind of braggart. And those motives are so misdirected because actually

00:37:12.740 what the research shows is that the very act of hiding your success can be incredibly insulting

00:37:18.680 to the other people because your motives seem pretty paternalistic. So when you finally found

00:37:24.520 out that your best friend has got a promotion or, you know, that he's won this amazing like prize for

00:37:31.620 his novel, when you find that out and you realize that he was hiding that from you, that makes you feel

00:37:37.240 like he kind of, he expects you to act like this spoiled child who has to win at every competition

00:37:43.800 and that you're going to act like this kind of, you know, brat who has a tantrum. It kind of shows

00:37:49.700 disrespect as if you're not strong enough to deal with that good news and to actually feel joy for that

00:37:54.660 other person. So there've just been so many studies showing this, so many multiple experiments showing

00:38:00.920 that false modesty really doesn't pay off. And that includes humble brags, you know, where you try to

00:38:06.080 kind of bail your boast in this kind of complaint or self-deprecating joke. Like all that tells the

00:38:13.380 other person is that you're trying to manipulate them and that you're kind of trying to make them

00:38:19.240 respect you without risking envy. And that doesn't go down well either because when there's the

00:38:26.800 perception of insincerity in someone that shakes the foundations of shared reality. So pretty much we

00:38:34.380 should be more willing to celebrate our achievements. You know, we don't need to be ashamed of them.

00:38:39.380 We just have to make sure that what we're saying is honest and what we're saying doesn't involve any

00:38:44.920 social comparison. So that's really crucial. So it's fine to kind of talk about your promotion,

00:38:51.440 talk about your prize, talk about your achievements at the gym. Just don't say something like,

00:38:57.120 oh yeah, I was running like faster than everyone I could see at the gym. Or, oh yeah,

00:39:01.180 like I'm now earning more money than like 90% of the people I know. Because this social comparison,

00:39:07.000 it triggers all of these kind of hardwired evolved responses where we're really suspicious of people

00:39:12.320 who are trying to kind of climb the ranks of our society's hierarchy. Like we just don't want to

00:39:18.180 think of people overtly comparing themselves to others because we might also be included in their

00:39:24.180 negative judgment. That really puts people's defenses up. But provided that you're honest and you avoid

00:39:29.800 social comparison, people respond really well to hearing about your successes. And often they

00:39:35.460 experience this emotion called konferlicity or mitfreude, a German word like schadenfreude,

00:39:41.840 which means, you know, joying with someone, like experiencing that vicarious happiness of

00:39:47.580 seeing another person's joy and contentment.

00:39:51.500 Okay. So the antidote to envy is this konferlicity. 0.81

00:39:54.520 Yeah.

00:39:54.680 And the way you can do that, just share the good news, don't do the social comparison.

00:39:58.500 And then when someone shares good news with you, what can we do to have better mitfreude?

00:40:03.600 Basically, like when someone shares their good news with us, like even if we are feeling a little

00:40:08.540 bit of envy, we just have to let the kind of mitfreude shine. We have to try to kind of put our envy

00:40:14.960 to one side. I mean, the chances are you're, you know, we have complex emotions,

00:40:20.200 so you might feel a little bit of jealousy, but you know, you probably are genuinely happy

00:40:24.620 for the other person. And just expressing that, showing the other person how glad you

00:40:29.120 are for them, you know, that is a really good bonding experience. Scientists call that process

00:40:35.860 where you experience mitfreude with another person, they call that capitalization because

00:40:41.940 it actually ends up increasing the well-being of both parties, the person who's had the good

00:40:46.720 news and the person who is vicariously experiencing the good news.

00:40:51.500 So you got a law about helping others who are going through a hard time and it's offer emotional

00:40:56.020 support to those in need, but do not force it upon them. And I think there's another thing that keeps

00:41:01.740 people from connecting with others. When they see someone going through a hard time, they don't reach

00:41:06.320 out because, you know, they don't know what to say, right? So if they have a friend who lost a loved

00:41:11.880 one to death or someone lost a job, they don't say anything or reach out. It's like, I'm going to say

00:41:16.440 the wrong thing and it's just better that I don't say anything. But the research actually says that

00:41:21.080 that fear is unfounded. What does the research say? And then what can we do to overcome that fear

00:41:25.900 of reaching out?

00:41:27.840 Yeah. So, I mean, what I found so surprising about this research was the fact that actually the nature

00:41:33.860 of the relationship didn't seem to really change how grateful someone was to receive that emotional

00:41:40.960 support. So whether they were close friends or whether they were vague acquaintances, like walking

00:41:47.060 up to someone and saying, I'm really sorry to hear that your dad died or that you've been ill or you're

00:41:54.380 going to be kicked off your course. Like, I'm really sorry and I want to be here to support you. You know,

00:41:59.420 no matter what the nature of that relationship, people really appreciate your effort to reach out.

00:42:05.400 So we don't need to be as scared of offering our support as we would be. Because, you know, most people

00:42:12.060 do assume that it's going to be kind of awkward, that they'll say something clumsy, that they'll end up

00:42:17.020 making the other person feel worse rather than better. But the research suggests that, you know,

00:42:22.220 those fears are unfounded. We're actually much better at providing the support that they need than we

00:42:27.900 think we are. And what we really need is just a bit more bravery to do so.

00:42:31.760 When we do reach out to someone and say something, anything that the research says is or isn't

00:42:37.780 helpful?

00:42:39.360 Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, one thing is that, you know, it's one thing to express your support

00:42:45.600 to another person, but you shouldn't be overbearing in the way that you go about that. So, you know,

00:42:51.080 sometimes a few short words, a few short sentences is enough. Trying to force someone to speak about

00:42:57.820 something when they're still, you know, in the middle of a painful experience, that's not really

00:43:02.980 going to help them to feel closer to you. So just making it clear that you're there for them whenever

00:43:07.960 they want you, but you're going to kind of be willing to step back and allow them to approach you.

00:43:13.800 That can be really important. Secondly, there's a lot of research looking at the downsides of venting.

00:43:20.900 And essentially, when we have supportive conversations with people, sometimes we can just

00:43:26.460 kind of egg them on to kind of relive the painful experience in as much detail as possible. And in

00:43:33.220 some ways that can be very validating because, you know, people want to be heard. They want their

00:43:39.060 feelings to be known. You're engaging in their shared reality by kind of telling them how painful

00:43:45.700 that must have been and how much you sympathize with them. But after a certain point,

00:43:50.560 it can become quite toxic because when you're reliving a painful event again and again and again,

00:43:57.060 it's not really helping them to move on. It's not really helping their mental health. And so that's

00:44:01.980 why we need to combine validation with some kind of attempts at helping them to see a new perspective

00:44:08.960 on the situation. Now we have to be like sensitive and delicate in the way that we do that. So kind of

00:44:16.680 blundering into the conversation and being like, oh, well, what you need to do is this and giving like

00:44:21.320 really misguided advice because you don't actually really know, you know, precisely what they're

00:44:26.280 feeling. Like that's not going to help too much. But it could be you tentatively suggest another way of

00:44:33.820 looking at the problem, but do it humbly and kind of ask for their opinion. Like, do you think that

00:44:39.340 would be helpful? You know, that's a sensitive way of helping them to reappraise what they're going

00:44:43.920 through. Sometimes it's just kind of asking the right questions and allowing them to kind of come

00:44:50.500 to a different perspective by themselves. So just asking them, you know, what do you think you might

00:44:55.480 learn from this experience? Or how do you think you might move on from this? Like, what's your plan

00:45:01.940 now? Just making sure that that is part of the conversation so that it's not solely focused on the

00:45:08.960 pain that they're feeling. That has been proven to be really fundamental to not just reaffirming

00:45:14.780 your relationship, but actually helping the other person to recover from whatever they're going

00:45:19.720 through. A related law to that is a law on forgiving and asking for forgiveness. And you talk about the

00:45:27.060 research about what happens to us when we hold on to a grudge. What does that research say?

00:45:32.200 Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of like, philosophical and religious teaching around

00:45:39.300 this. Like, I think it's probably pretty well established in so many traditions that holding

00:45:45.160 a grudge is bad for us. And the scientific research just kind of proves that point. Like,

00:45:51.300 you know, if you kind of lash out and retaliate, that can help you in the moment, but it doesn't

00:45:56.400 necessarily help you to recover emotionally afterwards. In fact, when we act spitefully

00:46:02.020 to someone, even if we feel that we're justified, it kind of causes us to lose our sense of humanity.

00:46:08.360 We, you know, there's lots of scientific questionnaires that psychologists can use to

00:46:13.660 kind of measure that aspect of, you know, how human do you feel? And what you find is that people's

00:46:19.060 answers subtly change. So it looks like they are now considering themselves to be a bit more kind of

00:46:23.920 animal-like than they would have been if they'd expressed forgiveness instead. So choosing

00:46:30.360 forgiveness, taking that moral high ground, that can be, you know, really beneficial to how we feel.

00:46:36.740 And then there's, you know, a bunch of research showing that people who forgive over those who

00:46:40.220 hold lasting grudges, they tend to be much healthier with their psychological well-being,

00:46:47.340 but also their physical well-being. When you hold a grudge, you really feel disconnected from

00:46:52.120 other people. So it kind of poisons you inside. And, you know, you face the consequences of that

00:46:58.560 for things like your, you know, risk of chronic pain, even, you know, your risk of things like

00:47:03.920 heart disease can be linked to whether you hold grudges or not.

00:47:08.300 What about asking for forgiveness? Is there research that tells the best way to approach

00:47:12.380 offering an apology and how we typically mess it up?

00:47:15.720 Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest problem that most of us face is that we just

00:47:20.300 don't apologize, even when we know that we've acted wrongly. That's not just stubbornness. I think

00:47:26.040 there's research showing actually that, you know, people often really want to express

00:47:30.160 their apology, but they just assume that the other person isn't going to forgive them. So

00:47:35.040 they don't say those words. They think, again, that they're going to be rejected,

00:47:40.040 that they might even make the situation worse by apologizing. So they almost just,

00:47:44.580 they're too fatalistic about losing the relationship rather than recognizing that

00:47:49.380 they might be able to heal this rift and that often relationships are much more robust

00:47:54.180 than we expect, even when they have suffered some serious damage through some wrong behavior.

00:48:02.060 So the first thing to learn, I think, is just to, you know, if you genuinely feel sorry,

00:48:06.760 it's to actually to say those words. When you're apologizing, you kind of need to tick like multiple

00:48:14.260 boxes. So you've got to accept your full responsibility for what you've done. You have to listen to the other

00:48:22.060 person to hear about what the consequences were of what you did and take responsibility for that too.

00:48:28.840 You really should then try to show how you're going to act differently in the future. Like,

00:48:34.140 you have to make it clear what you've learned from your mistake and why you're going to avoid hurting

00:48:40.240 the other person again. A lot of the time we just try to rush our apologies. You know, if we are brave

00:48:45.760 enough to apologize, we might be like, oh yeah, I'm sorry. Anyway, now you have to get over it because

00:48:50.140 we need to go back to normal. That is not going to help the other person. Like, they need to feel

00:48:55.060 that they've been heard and that you are going to change as a result of what's happened.

00:49:01.260 Well, David, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:49:04.500 and your work?

00:49:06.280 So my website is davidrobson.me. You can find links to buy my book there. You know,

00:49:14.140 it should be available in all of the usual retailers. So your local bookshops, big stores

00:49:19.080 like Barnes and Noble, Amazon, obviously, you know, wherever you get your books. You can also

00:49:24.960 follow me on Twitter. That's D underscore A underscore Robson. And on Instagram, where I'm

00:49:31.780 just starting to kind of build a following. It's david A. Robson.

00:49:36.180 Fantastic. Well, David Robson, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:49:38.900 A pleasure for me too. Thank you.

00:49:40.280 My guest here is David Robson. He's the author of the book, The Laws of Connection. It's available

00:49:45.260 on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his website,

00:49:49.480 davidrobson.me. Also check out our show notes at awim.is slash connection, where you find links

00:49:54.680 to resources, where you delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the

00:50:05.820 AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanless.com, where you find our podcast

00:50:09.500 archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty

00:50:12.780 much anything you think of. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take

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00:50:19.480 done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member

00:50:23.020 who you think gets something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. And until

00:50:26.720 next time, this is Brett McKay. Remind your time to listen to the podcast, but put what you've

00:50:30.560 heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - June 10, 2024

The Laws of Connection — The Scientific Secrets of Building Stronger Relationships

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