The Art of Manliness - The Naturalist’s Art of Animal Encounters

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:11.120 whether you see some deer have a fox cross your path or spot a moose there's something

00:00:16.120 disproportionately delightful about encountering wildlife even seeing something pedestrian like a 0.67

00:00:21.160 possum feels really fun if you'd like to have more of these kinds of encounters and a deeper

00:00:25.600 experience with nature as a result my guest has some tips for making them happen more often

00:00:29.780 his name is dave hall and he's an outdoor educator and guide as well as the author of the naturalist

00:00:35.360 companion a field guide to observing and understanding wildlife today on the show dave and i first talk

00:00:40.740 about the safety and ethical considerations around observing wild animals we then discuss the best

00:00:45.480 places to spot wildlife and how it can be in your own backyard whether it's the best time of day to

00:00:49.700 encounter animals and the approach to take so that animals don't know you're there or if they do feel

00:00:54.800 comfortable with your presence dave shares the gaze to adapt to spy more animals and the signs

00:00:59.840 that will help you find them we enter conversation with how to practice what dave calls spontaneous

00:01:04.080 acceptance which may allow you to chill with a beaver after the show's over check out our show notes at

00:01:09.760 awim.is wildlife all right dave hall welcome back to the show thank you so much it's great to be here

00:01:28.260 so we had you on the podcast a few years ago to talk about how to survive in the winter you got a new book

00:01:35.180 out called the naturalist companion and it's all about getting out into nature and observing wildlife

00:01:42.100 why do you feel like you need to write this book like why do you think it's important for people to

00:01:47.480 get out not just into nature and like walk around and enjoy the trees but actually learn how to observe

00:01:53.200 animals yeah it's funny i'm not a professional biologist by trade it's an obsession really and what

00:02:00.860 i've noticed is that sure people do get outside they get out and they power walk they hike they go

00:02:07.700 camping but it always seems like it's this mission driven thing and i'm very content with just being

00:02:14.800 there and what happens when you're just there meaning you don't really have a goal it's really

00:02:20.320 just to be a witness to be an observer is that i see a lot of things i see tons of things and i've

00:02:26.280 talked to like professional biologists and birders and they're like wow how do you see all that stuff

00:02:31.900 and so i felt it necessary to put down in words what i've been doing and you know i've literally

00:02:38.340 had professionals say what do you do i want to know and so really when i wrote the book i had to

00:02:43.800 think long and hard about what it was i was doing and what's cool is that it doesn't take any technology

00:02:49.100 really it just takes a mindset the gift of giving yourself some time and getting out there and putting

00:02:55.680 these skills into practice and really what's to me so cool is we are all here because of these skills

00:03:02.340 you know i'm a primitive skills enthusiast as you know and we all came from a heritage that use these

00:03:08.660 skills on a daily basis you know to hunt to fish to learn about their environment so that's kind of

00:03:14.300 where i'm coming from yeah and i think you you talk about in the beginning of the book you know a lot

00:03:19.940 of people get out into the woods and they'll enjoy the scenery but something something else happens when

00:03:25.100 you encounter wildlife it never gets old for me even when i'm out in the wild and i come across

00:03:30.760 an armadillo by surprise it's it's so delightful it never i'm 40 years old it's still as cool as when

00:03:39.100 i was a little kid yeah no doubt and and to me it is an utterly complete joy to be in the presence

00:03:46.200 of an animal especially when they don't know you're there just watching them do their thing hunt

00:03:51.800 groom you know rest whatever it is they're doing it's just a complete joy and and for me it's it's

00:03:59.200 really about one of the reasons anyway is about relaying that joy and getting people hooked on

00:04:05.220 becoming better observers because it is so much fun okay so you talk about the book you can see

00:04:10.360 wildlife anywhere you can go to a city park if you want but if you are planning to go out into the wild

00:04:15.360 like out into the wilderness to observe animals the same safety precautions you take for you know any hike

00:04:21.040 or if you're going to go camping overnight apply so you know bring survival gear dress for the weather

00:04:26.120 dress for the elements know how to get in and out of where you're going but then also now you're

00:04:30.980 observing animals you got to think about animal safety and people got to remember that these are

00:04:35.840 wild animals and i i think people have probably seen those videos right of visitors that go to national

00:04:42.100 parks and they get attacked by bison they get out of their car and they walk up to the bison 0.79

00:04:46.820 to you know get a picture or selfie with the bison i'm thinking they're thinking well these are in a

00:04:52.260 national park these must be domesticated but these are still wild animals you have to respect them as

00:04:57.000 wild animals and you got an important safety rule when it comes to animals it's this at no time should

00:05:03.680 you knowingly approach animals that have the ability to harm you so keep that in mind when you're out

00:05:08.780 there observing animals yeah and i had that very thing almost well it did happen to me i was fortunate

00:05:15.700 that the buffalo did not make contact with me but when i was 20 i was in custer state park

00:05:21.440 and i thought i was safe i made a big semi-circle in this big open meadow and these two male bison that

00:05:29.920 were way up by this visitor center decided it wasn't cool that i was nearby and it was just luck that i

00:05:36.960 didn't get gored to death you know i played dead i didn't know what else to do but you literally i

00:05:42.060 felt the ground rumble and tremble from their presence it was you know you start praying to

00:05:48.260 anything that you can in that moment it's terrifying and and that was a wake-up call like i was ignorant

00:05:54.680 and young and yeah i have a healthy respect for what an animal can do especially this big land

00:06:01.520 herbivores they're incredibly powerful so safety keep your distance and don't approach animals that

00:06:08.820 can harm you don't do anything that'll startle them yeah recognize the fact that there's wildlife

00:06:13.960 out there that could possibly kill you what about ethical considerations are there any principles that

00:06:19.740 people should take in or keep in mind about respecting wildlife while they're out there observing

00:06:24.820 animals yeah and you know it's an interesting topic because on one hand all the skills that i'm

00:06:32.120 putting in the book can be used for hunting assuming that what you're hunting is legal and you're following

00:06:37.000 all the rules on the other hand we don't want to unnecessarily stress out an animal right we don't

00:06:44.520 want to harm an animal and make its life harder it's pretty rough out there and so i think that really

00:06:49.260 comes down to the individual in that situation what are your intentions because if you're deer hunting and

00:06:54.660 everything's legal you know that's a management tool that for the most part has been used quite

00:06:59.640 well and i'm thinking about new york state you know because that's where i live when it's an animal that

00:07:05.580 is not say a game species and we're just trying to get experiences so that we can learn about that

00:07:12.400 animal we do have to consider being invisible are we invisible to that animal if we're not and the

00:07:19.460 animals aware of us are we stressing it out or does it notice us and it just keeps its distance and

00:07:25.660 everything's fine and that's something where you really have to be aware of your own impact on the

00:07:30.900 environment and the thing is is that people have adverse impacts on animals all the time and they

00:07:37.160 don't even know it you know what i'm saying they literally tear through the woods on motorcycles or

00:07:42.600 they're running or they're loud and animals are constantly moving away and so these skills will

00:07:49.240 give you the the space in which you start to recognize your impact on animals because they

00:07:54.940 won't necessarily be 200 yards away so yeah i think it's really important to always question

00:08:01.220 your intent in the long-term impacts of what you're doing on animals i have beavers that live in my pond

00:08:07.900 right now and i've actually befriended them to some degree and i have to ask is there going to

00:08:12.900 be a long-term impact a negative impact on their lives and and my assessment was no and so i ended

00:08:19.440 up befriending them and one of them comes over and visits me every night when i sit down there and

00:08:23.920 that's she's not going to do that to anyone i'm the person in her life that she can do that with

00:08:28.700 so yeah i think it's a very important question to consider yeah and this will come up too when we start

00:08:34.420 talking about how there's things you can do to you know lure animals can kind of come closer to you

00:08:39.320 yeah and sometimes that might be okay sometimes it might not we'll talk about that when we get to

00:08:44.320 that point sure so let's talk about guidebooks are there any guidebooks that you recommend for people

00:08:49.760 sure besides my own which is less a guidebook and more of a how-to i've got a stack here on my desk

00:08:55.800 tom brown has a great series of field guides many of them having to do with nature awareness

00:09:01.140 and tracking there's great field guides like the peterson field guides they have guides for

00:09:06.320 everything and one of my favorites is eastern forests which isn't a field guide to animals so

00:09:12.760 much as to habitats and symbiosis and things like that timber press is doing some amazingly beautiful

00:09:19.800 guides to regional specific wildlife i feel like they've really upped the game and created a new

00:09:27.240 baseline for what's awesome stokes they have a series of guides there's a book called the tracking

00:09:34.040 tracking and the art of seeing by paul resendes and a couple books that aren't necessarily field

00:09:40.460 guides but i highly recommend is john young's what the robin knows joe hutos touching the wild and then

00:09:47.780 a really great book called beaver sprite by a woman named dorothy richards and that's a story about her

00:09:53.980 relationship with the beavers that lived on her property and it gives you a sense of the importance

00:09:59.320 of making those contacts with individual animals so there's a few gotcha and you recommend people

00:10:05.760 actually get a field book like a field guy where it has like the illustrations or the pictures instead

00:10:10.320 of just relying on you know a google image search what's the benefit of having the book as opposed to

00:10:16.020 relying on the internet to help you identify wildlife yeah i mean they're both out there these days i

00:10:22.020 often refer to the internet but you know there's nothing like really reading about an author's

00:10:26.140 experience for example paul resende's book he's a an amazing photographer an amazing naturalist and he

00:10:32.540 has these great stories so it's not just you know otters do this a b and c he'll talk about his

00:10:38.240 personal experiences and that to me just is much more interesting and less dry than a a field guide

00:10:45.420 that doesn't mean i don't use field guides i do all the time but there's something to me that's much

00:10:51.140 more appealing about that personal touch that you get with um a book like joe hutos paul resende's

00:10:56.860 dorothy richards but yeah it's important and some of the books you simply want them for their density

00:11:02.080 right you want as many mammals in there as you can for your region simply because you're going out

00:11:06.540 trying to identify things and they're out there too lots of great books yeah yeah uh it made me think

00:11:12.440 about theodore roosevelt wrote a couple books on wildlife observations and they're great because not only

00:11:19.140 does he describe what the fauna look like but in his personal stories i mean yeah as you said it

00:11:24.360 adds something to it that you wouldn't get if you just looked at the internet yeah for sure and that's

00:11:29.660 always what i look for in a good book it's like yeah yeah we all know beavers chew uh bark and make

00:11:35.720 dens but you know i want to hear something that's unique to them a unique story that makes them an

00:11:41.860 individual let's talk about best places to observe wildlife so it can be done anywhere you can look out

00:11:47.300 your backyard you'll probably see a squirrel or a rabbit but if you want to go beyond just the

00:11:51.420 backyard observation thing where would you recommend people to go to increase their chances of spotting

00:11:57.320 wildlife yeah well you know it's really funny i literally and i'm not being short with this but

00:12:03.120 anywhere and the reason i say that is because most of our population lives in urban settings and when i

00:12:10.540 have the chance when i have a little extra time i divide it when i'm looking for wildlife between urban

00:12:16.320 areas and more rural areas and the reason is is there's just a density at least where i live which

00:12:23.440 is in ithaca at the south end of one of the finger lakes there is a density of bird life wildlife and

00:12:30.920 to some degree when you see these animals or birds they're somewhat used to people so that when you do

00:12:37.760 happen to get that glimpse of a fox it might be willing to hang out at the edge of the golf course a

00:12:43.220 little longer than a fox at the edge of say a cornfield and i've spent a ton of time in the last

00:12:50.040 say two years seeing more mink than i have ever seen in my life and it's 100 not 100 but huge percent

00:12:59.080 all urban mink and i've learned a ton from watching these animals in a semi-urban environment and so

00:13:05.860 that's the short answer but really anywhere an animal can meet its needs right those basic needs

00:13:12.880 of shelter water places to hide places to raise their young places to do whatever they need to do

00:13:19.340 and so depending on what you might be interested in you may have to seek that out right for example i am

00:13:25.460 going to look for moose up in northern new york and they're not down here in the finger lakes they're up

00:13:30.300 in our mountainous area and that's more akin to oh you know northern ontario and so i have to go

00:13:37.040 looking for that species and while i'm looking for that species i may also find other species that are

00:13:43.160 akin to you know the burial forest like canada jays or blackback woodpeckers and things like that

00:13:48.560 so really anywhere but when you get specific or you have a desire to find a certain animal you may

00:13:56.960 have to seek out that habitat one tip you give i thought was really useful in the book is look for

00:14:01.440 transition areas and ecosystems so like the line between forest and prairie or just grass or grass

00:14:09.480 and water because those are areas where you know maybe the animals will hang out in the forest most of

00:14:15.160 the time but they're going to go out to the grass to feed or they're going to go to the water to get

00:14:18.620 water so look for those transition areas i think that's a really good yeah and they're all kinds of

00:14:23.760 transition areas you know the bank of a creek right that is a one big fat transition area

00:14:29.480 all kinds of them and they all offer something different and they can be big ones right like the

00:14:35.220 ones you gave as an example which was a forest and then you have a more meadow type environment but

00:14:40.580 they can also be miniature i was trying to show the kids that i work with a tiny little transition area

00:14:46.120 and there was a field and somebody had left a bunch of lumber there and it was starting to rot

00:14:51.160 and that lumber offered a habitat shelter for the local voles but they would go out into the field

00:14:58.380 to feed right and so sometimes those little transition areas are almost you know go unnoticed

00:15:04.200 because they're so small so they're everywhere they're everywhere well so you mentioned the urban

00:15:08.740 wildlife that you talk about in the book i think that's really interesting because that can lead people

00:15:13.040 to think about like what's going on in their own environment in their backyard so here in tulsa you know

00:15:19.100 i live in the suburbs of tulsa sort of semi urban but we have tons of coyote there's tons of deer

00:15:25.120 there's foxes i've also seen bobcat and like nearby which is crazy every time i see a bobcat there's

00:15:31.740 like a wild cat there's like wild cats out here in oklahoma it's crazy oh they're amazing and that's

00:15:36.160 something that wasn't in our area say 25 30 years ago and their numbers have done really well and i think

00:15:42.200 the last two sightings i had were both within city limits of ithaca so that's pretty cool yeah yeah

00:15:49.520 okay so best place to find you can anywhere but look for transitional areas where maybe forest turns

00:15:56.180 into meadow or meadow turns into a lake or a river are there best times of day to observe wildlife

00:16:03.600 yeah and that that's funny because when you read a lot of the books they're going to say a lot of animals

00:16:09.380 are nocturnal or a lot of animals are crepuscular which means they're active during the dawn or the

00:16:14.500 dust kind of thing sun's coming up sun's going down and it's not necessarily true and i'm going to use

00:16:20.620 mink for an example that's what the books will say they're crepuscular but what i have found is they're

00:16:27.180 going to be active any time of the day as long as they're comfortable being active and what that means

00:16:32.500 is if they're not too hot or they're not too cold they're going to be out hunting or they can be out

00:16:38.900 hunting so for example in the winter when the coldest time of the day is typically in the middle

00:16:43.960 of the night they're going to be out a whole lot more during the day because it makes sense in terms

00:16:49.160 of energy conservation especially when it's sunny and bright if there's a storm out in the middle of

00:16:54.580 day well they'll they'll hedge their bets and wait until night conversely if it's too cold you know

00:17:00.460 they're going to wait it out and so a lot of animals are said to be this or that but really it has

00:17:05.340 to do a lot with comfortable operating circumstances you know we know that before a storm for example

00:17:11.240 animals such as deer are going to be out in the meadows grazing to fuel up so that they can ride

00:17:16.900 out this storm with a bit more energy and then they'll come out after the storm so best time of day

00:17:23.760 you know avoid it well not avoid it doesn't mean you should stay inside but if it's super hot

00:17:29.340 super muggy things are going to be denning up riding out the heat in their den just kind of

00:17:35.540 you know just trying to stay comfortable but when it's comfortable animals will be out you know i've

00:17:41.180 seen foxes out during the day bears coyotes mink otter you name it middle of the day beavers even

00:17:47.820 so a lot of that stuff is i think based on limited experience by whoever wrote the guidebook

00:17:54.020 interesting okay so let's talk about staying invisible yeah animals anything you need to do

00:18:00.380 to stay invisible camouflage what are your tips and tricks there yeah so one of the biggest problems

00:18:05.720 especially for new people is i think a lack of self-awareness in the sense of recognizing that

00:18:13.520 yourself not saying like you or i is enemy number one but people in general are seen as a threat

00:18:20.020 to wildlife because they've been shot at and trapped and it can be hard and so understanding

00:18:26.680 what baseline is baseline is when an animal is acting in a life-supporting way and so as you're

00:18:34.540 moving into an environment a you want to be quiet you don't want to be loud and to some degree you want

00:18:40.440 to be camouflaged although that's a somewhat a secondary concern because if you're loud or you know

00:18:46.380 a parent you're going to get busted and those animals are going to go away but as you slow down

00:18:51.720 and you're quiet you're going to start to see animals more and more and the idea is to ask yourself

00:18:58.240 does the animal know i'm here and if not is it acting in a baseline manner baseline life supporting and

00:19:04.980 if it's fleeing from you well maybe you're the cause of that and that's a good time to do a little

00:19:10.800 self-reflection and assessment of your approach so those are the some of the tips and i see people

00:19:16.420 who say you know in quote i love to get outside but they're constantly scaring things away whether

00:19:22.420 they know it or not and so to slow down painfully is really important you know don't have an agenda

00:19:29.880 of getting anywhere go 100 yards in your afternoon versus a mile and a half or whatever it might be and

00:19:36.040 really go submit to the experience of just being quiet and slow and that will pay huge dividends

00:19:42.920 and you talked about you don't even have to wear camouflage like you found come across plenty of

00:19:47.880 wildlife and got pretty close with you know wearing a regular jacket or whatever it wasn't wasn't anything

00:19:52.260 yeah special yeah as i said it's it's secondary because you could have the best camouflage on in

00:19:57.200 the world but if you're loud and you're moving quickly you're going to get busted and yeah it's true

00:20:02.880 most of my encounters i do tend to wear drab clothes but i don't specifically wear camouflage

00:20:09.180 and i have incredibly consistent close encounters with animals that are not aware of me at all

00:20:15.680 you know and i'm thinking about mink i've been watching a pair of otter all winter i don't think

00:20:21.620 they've ever been aware that i've been standing offshore watching them because i'm still so you talk

00:20:27.260 about this thing called the fox walk what's that yeah so that's something that tom brown coined

00:20:32.920 although i would say that it's a walk that indigenous people those who are still living

00:20:38.900 hunter gatherers still do but really it's a way of making sure that your senses are up meaning you

00:20:46.140 don't have to look down at the ground because you're going too fast on your trip but what you're

00:20:49.980 doing is you're basically holding your weight on your back leg your front foot comes forward much

00:20:56.540 more slowly than a normal walk and you you gently touch the ground but before you roll it flat and

00:21:03.500 commit you're saying to yourself am i going to crunch leaves or break twigs and announce myself

00:21:09.240 and if that is the case you gracefully move your foot to a better spot and then you transition your

00:21:15.360 weight and so it's probably you know 10 times slower than a normal walk but you're you're slower

00:21:21.460 you're quieter allows your senses to be fully up and engaged and then when you see something then you

00:21:27.840 can slow down even further and if your choices warrant you to go closer then you can move into a stalk or

00:21:35.000 what i've been calling a stealth walk and that's where you know we get into the primitive skills of

00:21:39.580 of getting painfully close to an animal if you need to or want to we're gonna take a quick break for

00:21:45.700 your word from our sponsors

00:21:46.640 and now back to the show so another tactic you recommend for people to get close to animals

00:21:57.060 is just finding a spot and sitting there for a really long time what's been your experience with

00:22:01.640 that technique oh my gosh yeah you know and if there's anybody out there who hunts this is the

00:22:05.980 technique that the vast majority of hunters use you find a promising spot either on the ground or

00:22:11.140 possibly in a safe tree stand and you wait and the idea is you know where you're going ahead of time

00:22:16.780 not always but you pick a spot that is going to be promising right the middle of the woods may result

00:22:23.840 in a place that you know where some deer comes through or a coyote but once again you're looking

00:22:29.520 for a promising spot that offers the animal something so a transition area a spot near water and so what this

00:22:37.440 can do is it forces you to be quiet it forces you to be still and it's amazing what can happen i mean

00:22:44.640 i've literally had animals sitting on me nothing huge but you know like squirrel and mice and things

00:22:49.360 like that sit on you and they don't even know you're you're there because you're just a stone you're a

00:22:54.800 little sage sitting in the woods and i've had tons of things come by you know i've had fox at close

00:23:00.680 quarters i've had bear i've had deer mink all kinds of things i mean it's just countless i've had

00:23:07.620 snakes slither over my feet so yeah so if you're doing things right they don't know you're even

00:23:14.200 there you're just a bump you are the log with a bump on it and if you play it cool they just keep

00:23:20.360 going and you've just had this kind of crazy experience so yeah sitting can be an incredibly

00:23:25.780 powerful thing to do it just requires it takes a lot of patience it does and that is something that

00:23:30.640 i think a lot of people will find challenging we are a society that does not encourage sitting still

00:23:36.980 or being just present and so some things that can help if you find yourself fidgeting or just

00:23:43.500 drifting away from being present is work a very oh quiet craft in your hands for example like if you

00:23:51.800 know how to make string or carve a stick or fidget with a you know a little piece of grass anything

00:23:57.900 can help and then my experience is then once you kind of get in that zone which you've slowed down

00:24:05.240 you've invested in that experience it's almost like you don't want to ruin it and things start

00:24:11.500 magical start to happen you also recommend people change the way they look or view their environment

00:24:17.800 when they're out there trying to observe wildlife and you talk about softening your gaze what do you

00:24:22.760 mean by that yeah so that's another skill that i learned through both tom brown as well as john

00:24:29.500 young tom calls it wide angle vision john young calls it owl eyes and the idea is instead of just

00:24:36.920 looking directly at something which we do we we do that that's pretty much all we really do in the

00:24:42.980 modern world where you're say looking at a screen looking at the road looking at the blackboard or

00:24:48.560 whatever they use these days looking directly at something is one way to use your eyes but the other

00:24:53.060 way is this wide angle vision and the idea is and the way i coach people to do it is you put your hands

00:24:58.920 up left and right as if you're like looking through a window and you notice each hand equally and you

00:25:05.340 spread your hands slowly until you get to your periphery wiggling your fingers if you have to

00:25:11.160 and if you're still paying attention equal left and right you're going to notice that you're not

00:25:17.860 really focused on any one thing and you can remove your hands but you want to stay in that headspace

00:25:22.680 and what that does is it makes you more sensitive to motion so for example you'll be in

00:25:28.540 wide angle vision and you'll notice say up to your upper right the flick of a robin's tail up in a tree

00:25:35.680 but then up to your left down you know the hill a little you see a flick of a deer's tail

00:25:41.060 and when you notice something that catches your interest then you can use your you know your

00:25:45.880 more focused vision and identify it but it's pretty amazing and it's a fun thing to do so for example when

00:25:52.220 i approach a new environment i just try to soak it in and i'll do a combination of those you know

00:25:59.480 focus vision as well as wide angle vision and it's amazing if you give it time what starts to pop out

00:26:06.020 and i do that in any environment it might not be a big landscape it might even be a thicket

00:26:10.560 and i've done that with the snakes that use my thicket as their little you know sanctuary and i'll

00:26:16.460 i'll look in and i see nothing and i just wait and i wait and then it's like ah i saw a little movement

00:26:22.520 of a tongue or i saw the that you know that animal move just a little bit and so once again that investment

00:26:28.620 of not rushing so yeah it seems like that's a good meditative practice i think so i think all of

00:26:35.560 these things are good meditative practice and perhaps a nice antidote to our frenzied selves

00:26:41.120 let's talk about animal behaviors and just understanding the life cycle behaviors of an

00:26:46.720 animal that can help us spot them more what are some life cycle behaviors that people should

00:26:51.000 key in on in general because every animal is going to be different right but in general what are some

00:26:56.220 things that people should think about if they want to increase their chances of encountering wildlife

00:27:00.660 yeah so to start at the very basics it's that fundamental asking of am i witnessing a baseline

00:27:08.900 behavior or a non-baseline behavior and non-baseline is interesting because that means the animal is

00:27:14.880 either in the very least concerned and the very most fighting for its life whereas baseline is life

00:27:21.760 supporting behaviors those are things like oh you know feeding young feeding yourself building a nest

00:27:27.800 sleeping preening all those things right and then it gets more interesting because you can start to ask

00:27:35.200 more in-depth questions and that's called an effigram and really that's just a list of all potential

00:27:40.660 behaviors and i like to go through like the yearly life cycle of animals when i think about it you know for

00:27:47.280 example right now birds are migrating they're going to be nesting soon they're going to be denning if

00:27:52.500 you're younger animals those things are being born right now you have young animals coming out all these

00:27:58.100 things need to make a living while they're making a living they might become prey it all becomes

00:28:03.380 incredibly dynamic and interesting and so for the rookie or the person who's really trying to wrap

00:28:09.340 their heads around it just be a witness you know and just ask basic questions because if you're not sure

00:28:15.900 you don't want to fill in the blank and be wrong so you might see an animal doing something and you're

00:28:21.580 not sure and really what i recommend is make a short list of potential things be open to maybe you're

00:28:27.800 wrong with your presumptions and give it time because animals are so dynamic and interesting that they

00:28:35.020 will constantly give you mysteries i have many mysteries that i'm really not sure about and you know

00:28:41.740 maybe with time they'll get answered and maybe not i don't know but the idea is don't rush trying to

00:28:48.220 just put a name on what you think you've seen but yeah and one of the more interesting behaviors that i

00:28:54.220 i've dubbed like cycles of vulnerability are these highlights in an animal's time when they are

00:28:59.740 especially vulnerable you know for me that i think about fish that are safe in the deep lakes

00:29:05.560 waters of cayuga are forced by biology to swim through the shallows to spawn it's not a conscious effort

00:29:14.000 or um thought they just have to do it biology is saying swim up that shallow creek breed lay eggs get

00:29:21.520 out of there but while they're up there they're incredibly vulnerable right and there's just things

00:29:26.280 like that that are when you think of any individual animal they go through these yearly life cycles and

00:29:32.380 points in their life when they're especially vulnerable to predation to being you know hit

00:29:39.020 by a car whatever it might be because they're moving they're young they're migrating whatever

00:29:44.400 it might be yeah yeah so uh yeah you talk about mating and spawning is a time when animals are

00:29:50.460 particularly vulnerable but then they're also very active so that's a good time to think about

00:29:54.600 but you also talk about like the environmental factors that can make animals vulnerable and will give

00:29:58.620 you maybe new opportunities to observe wildlife uh because they'll kind of basically put them out

00:30:03.420 of baseline so a flood or if there's a drought going on or any kind of inclement weather or like a

00:30:10.780 wildfire um that's going to change how the animals behave and you might find opportunities to spot them

00:30:17.880 more often no doubt and um one of the more striking examples that we had in the last few years when the

00:30:23.580 pandemic just started we were all working from home my wife was on the couch you know learning how to

00:30:30.820 use zoom and we were also in the east at least in new york we were in a bit of a drought and i waved to

00:30:37.520 her i was going to go up to the bedroom and read and it was right around dusk and i'll be polite but she

00:30:42.700 said there's an effing bear outside and and she was correct there was a bear outside and in the first 20

00:30:51.020 years of our living in our house we knew that we had seven bears on our property that spring alone

00:30:58.060 in early summer we had seven bears on our property and that was because there was this extra pressure

00:31:04.620 on bears because the the environment was forcing them to seek food and opportunities that were risky

00:31:11.820 because they were basically starving so yeah that's an example of the environment inflicting

00:31:17.480 you know something on them that isn't always there every year and so yeah we had some fun encounters

00:31:24.520 with bears that year and that bear actually had cubs in the tree so she was desperate trying to find

00:31:30.560 anything to feed these little bears and um fortunately we were able to take down our feeder while she was up 1.00

00:31:35.460 in the tree and and um taught her that this isn't a place to get a free meal because that's a bad thing

00:31:40.760 when the bear learns where there's a you know easy access to grain or garbage or anything like that

00:31:46.000 no it's funny you mentioned the pandemic i remember what it when like lockdown was at the very beginning

00:31:50.640 and pretty much no one was going out you'd see these reports of just wildlife in downtown areas

00:31:57.040 that you know they're like what the heck is why is there a deer in the middle of this downtown we

00:32:00.840 haven't seen that but the deer were like well there's no humans here there's no cars i'm gonna go check

00:32:04.880 things out oh no doubt i think that happened everywhere we found that in ithaca um like

00:32:10.860 everywhere else we had bear we had raccoons out during the day there were deer in the center of

00:32:16.680 the city where there were never deer yeah it was it was remarkably interesting so a fun way to track

00:32:23.160 animals is actually look at their tracks and that's where the field guides can come in handy because

00:32:27.620 i can show you okay was this a fox or is this a coyote etc etc but besides tracks are there any other

00:32:33.480 signs to be on the lookout for to help you spot wildlife yeah no doubt there are so many so many

00:32:39.280 cool things that um can be discovered and um it's interesting because you know a track if we're going

00:32:45.680 to get really kind of specific most people think it was a track right is the footprint but things to

00:32:50.800 look for and some of these are seasonal and some of these aren't but like for example otter and beaver

00:32:55.520 will push up through thin ice and leave plates of ice off to the side so you can be like something came up

00:33:01.800 through there and depending on its size you can usually narrow it down to like is it a beaver is

00:33:06.620 it an otter possibly a muskrat or a mink but there's things like chews there's scat rubs the dens and nests

00:33:14.680 that these animals create there's kill sites you know so you might find evidence of bones or feathers

00:33:20.740 or hair the otters that i've been watching have left some beautiful slides down this slope near where they

00:33:27.220 live and that's a fun different kind of a track that we don't often get to see because they're not

00:33:33.940 the animal isn't that common where we live and then there's things to do that aren't exactly physical

00:33:39.100 you know the idea of listening and being tuned into animals that way because animals right they're

00:33:45.380 either baseline or they're not and when you're listening for that you can also be pointed towards

00:33:51.840 literal animals so if animals are acting as if they're scared or agitated it's good to pay

00:33:57.800 attention because they literally may show you where the fox is or where the owl is or whatever

00:34:02.780 and so that's another way to tune in and learn from animals yeah my favorite ones to be on the lookout for

00:34:08.680 are uh runs so in my backyard it backs up into a green belt um and you can see the coyote runs

00:34:16.240 right you're like why is this weird trail there there's no one walks there oh those are coyotes

00:34:20.200 oh that's fantastic the other one i like to spot when i'm out just hiking is looking for uh resting

00:34:26.160 sites so just seeing where you see a bunch of grass you know pressed down and you think well that's

00:34:32.860 probably where a deer was resting so there might be deer nearby those are my favorite ones to key in on

00:34:37.620 so yeah look for different signs besides the animal prints but look for things like on you know

00:34:41.960 runs look for chew marks uh bears will claw things uh deer when they're rutting they're going to

00:34:48.300 scrape their antlers on stuff and you can see that on the trees as well that's another one i like to

00:34:53.040 look for when i'm out and about oh my gosh and speaking of bears so when the bears came to our

00:34:57.560 house i still wanted a bird feeder but i couldn't just hang it off a branch so i put up a cable

00:35:02.440 and now i lower it and raise it on a cable with the idea that it's out of reach of the bears and so

00:35:09.540 last summer one of our dogs who's a hound was sniffing the tree like more than she might normally

00:35:16.940 and i looked and a bear had come at some point and i could see the claw marks as it went up the tree

00:35:22.820 but my system worked you know and so yeah we get bear um sign and we've had you know left their scat on

00:35:30.300 our property it's amazing they've really made a strong comeback in the last decade or so what's your

00:35:36.400 take on calling or influencing animals so they come closer to you yeah so once again that's something

00:35:41.900 that really needs to be done with some great consideration if an animal is legal to hunt

00:35:47.460 and you're in season there are lots of products right that you can buy deer calls and grunts and

00:35:54.180 duck calls and that sort of thing for the person like myself i generally do it as a way to understand

00:35:59.900 their language and motivation and i largely do these things sparingly meaning i want to understand

00:36:06.700 this animal and so i want to know if my theory is correct will this sound or putting out this bait

00:36:13.460 work and if it does and i'm satisfied i typically stop doing it but i've learned something and i'm that

00:36:21.400 much more aware of that animal's motivations and it's and everything that goes on to um you know

00:36:27.500 that's part of its life and i'll give you an example um so we long ago when we moved into our

00:36:32.340 house we had this big big garter snake that i named helen and helen i could tell was a female because 1.00

00:36:39.340 she was much much bigger than the males and she had one eye the other eye had been like scabbed over

00:36:44.500 and scaled over and she couldn't see and she was really cool and rather intimidating size for a garter

00:36:50.480 snake but we got comfortable with her around the side of our house and she would bask in the sun 0.96

00:36:56.260 along the foundation and i thought to myself well how can i call her can i call her i didn't know if

00:37:03.480 i could because i knew a if i made too much noise because i was thinking of using sound that she would

00:37:10.420 take that as a threat because she's not only a predator but she's a prey species but i thought well

00:37:15.160 what does she eat what would she be interested in so i took a small twig and i kind of crept in and i

00:37:21.140 took that twig and i just raked it gently against some dry leaves and she immediately perked right

00:37:28.360 up lifted her head and came to me you know and i have this big snake for a garter several feet away 1.00

00:37:36.160 from me and and and then the question is well what was she thinking what did that sound like to her

00:37:41.080 you know and in my mind it sounded like oh an earthworm or some bug that she'd be interested in

00:37:46.800 and it worked you know and then another way that we used to you know i'm going to say in quotes call

00:37:51.760 her is we would hold an earthworm and sneak over her and hold it in our hands and she would notice 0.94

00:37:58.860 this twitching worm she never questioned why there was a worm in the air and she would literally take 0.91

00:38:05.120 it out of our hands you know and she didn't really notice that it was our hand she just noticed

00:38:09.440 there was something to eat you know so calling is a very interesting thing right you do have to be

00:38:14.320 ethical you don't want to be leaving piles of donuts out for bears and habituating them but it

00:38:19.780 can be a real good lens in which to view wildlife and really start to understand what influences them

00:38:26.620 what appeals to them what it gives you a greater lens to their greater life cycle because it's a really

00:38:33.160 great um lens to look at an animal through you know they have their yearly influences so for example

00:38:41.100 foxes around here their urine gets very skunky you could move that and put it somewhere else and

00:38:47.900 then the fox over there might be interested and then make mark on that we have porcupines we have

00:38:53.580 deer that all can be influenced uh you have this one chapter on this idea of spontaneous acceptance

00:38:58.840 what is that and walk us through that so that chapter diverges greatly from the other ones because

00:39:05.280 everything else is based on for the most part in being a fly on the wall being invisible

00:39:09.700 being quiet and all that spontaneous acceptance is a much different approach and there's really two

00:39:17.760 big categories and the first one is well in both categories the animal knows you're there so it's

00:39:23.840 very different you're there the animal knows you're there and in the first approach you're really trying

00:39:29.100 to express through body language that you are a benign indifferent force you know so for example

00:39:37.340 our friend sarah who is our neighbor she farms on our land and she does this unintentionally but

00:39:43.980 because she's up in the fields every day working in her little barn working with her horses working

00:39:48.960 in the fields the local turkey or the fox we're like oh it's just sarah and they see her as just part

00:39:54.660 of the landscape for somebody who's not always on the landscape so much you really want to check in

00:40:00.760 and watch that animal you're probably not real close and you're just pretending to forage or you're

00:40:07.140 digging a hole gently or you're just doing something that looks like you're indifferent to them

00:40:12.440 you're not you're not a threat the other way and this is a little bit more oh i don't want to say new

00:40:19.100 agey we all prickle when you hear that but when for example you spend time in wilderness to the point

00:40:26.840 where you've really slowed down animals perceive that mentally if a person really slows down

00:40:33.660 and their brain waves are different than the harried modern brain waves animals can sense that and they

00:40:39.960 can sense your intention and they may actually come to you and in both cases they may actually come to

00:40:45.580 you because they're seeing you as a non-threat and they know what your intentions are and i can only

00:40:49.780 say that because i've had enough experience in these realms where it's like this seems like a real

00:40:53.940 phenomenon and so it's a hard thing to quantify but i was in algonquin park for 15 days on a solo and

00:41:02.600 man as soon as i kind of got past the agenda of having to go and i just submitted to being in that

00:41:10.260 wilderness you know magical things happen and i've had animals you know enter my campsite and they hang

00:41:16.360 out and they're like whatever i've been able to paddle past things like beaver and herons without

00:41:22.500 them acting in the least bit alarmed and it's you know and that's an odd thing because normally they

00:41:28.420 should be alarmed and they'll hear you coming and fly away or take off so that's a very different

00:41:33.520 concept and it's something that i think when a reader is interested um they have to really check

00:41:40.040 in with themselves and be willing to do a little bit of soul searching if you will and just slow down

00:41:46.240 and give themselves time to really um sink into the experience because animals are not fools you know

00:41:53.480 you can be slow and pretending and somehow they'll know if your intentions are are not necessarily

00:41:59.620 wholesome or or good you know yeah they they know yeah you talk about you had this experience with the

00:42:05.040 beaver in your pond you called him merle merle yeah merle the beaver and he just kind of he got used to

00:42:10.960 you'd come into the pond and he wouldn't get freaked out he's kind of like well you're just part of this

00:42:14.960 environment that i'm that i'm in yeah and i'm glad you brought that up because merle was kind of one

00:42:20.700 of my more significant introductions into the work that people like diane fossey or jane goodall or joe

00:42:27.660 hutto do where they really learn about an animal not because they're looking through a scope but because

00:42:34.560 that animal has accepted them and they're allowed access into that animal's world and so with me i really

00:42:42.160 became obsessed and actually i have a pair in the pond right now that i'm still observing but merle

00:42:48.720 gave me the gift of allowing me presence and i had to earn that because if i had done anything to

00:42:55.920 threaten him or to make him think that i was anything less than a friendly force i would have

00:43:02.160 breached that trust and he may have just left the pond or gone completely nocturnal but what merle

00:43:08.300 did allow me was you know in a way an odd friendship i would um it took a while but i would

00:43:16.100 go down and i would tell him i was coming i'd say hello i'm you know who's a beaver i had this funny

00:43:21.760 routine but the idea was to get him used to my body shape the way i walked to know that i'm just here

00:43:28.900 hanging out and before you know it within i forget the timeline but he would slowly got closer and

00:43:35.900 closer and within six weeks or a couple months he was eating on shore grooming on shore within five

00:43:43.080 feet of me total baseline behaviors because he saw me as a non-threat and then that allowed me access

00:43:48.800 to things that you know beavers do and beyond the things that we typically know you know so yeah it's

00:43:55.620 an incredibly valuable thing and what the beavers have done is i've now become an advocate for beavers

00:44:01.820 because i do lectures on beavers now and i talk about how important they are and how utterly valuable

00:44:07.560 to our planet they are they're probably the most important species we have in north america and a lot

00:44:13.620 of people don't think of them that way but they're really just remarkable animals so yeah merle was an

00:44:18.740 awesome experience well dave this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more

00:44:22.800 about the book in your work yeah so my website is davehalloutdoors.com there's you know the book

00:44:30.420 links and i don't know it's a fairly new site but i plan to put up lectures and if i'm going to be

00:44:35.720 running any classes so yeah that's that's my website fantastic well dave hall thanks for your time it's

00:44:40.360 been a pleasure appreciate it this has been awesome thanks so much my guest today was dave hall he's the

00:44:45.840 author of the book the naturalist companion it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere

00:44:50.280 you can find more information about his work at his website davehalloutdoors.com also check out our

00:44:55.220 show notes at aom.is wildlife where you find links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic

00:45:00.140 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

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The Art of Manliness - March 29, 2023

The Naturalist’s Art of Animal Encounters

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