The Art of Manliness - The (Non-Cliche) Life Lessons of Fly Fishing

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast now fishing has

00:00:11.540 long lent itself to imparting philosophical parallels and metaphorical life lessons but

00:00:16.080 these homespun platitudes can well let's be honest tend to get a little time-worn and cliche

00:00:20.120 my guest today breathes new life into what fishing specifically fly fishing has to teach anglers and

00:00:25.200 non-anglers alike while also giving us a look inside the skill fun and sensibilities of this

00:00:29.440 sport his name is david coggins and he's a travel and style writer as well as the author of the

00:00:33.320 optimist a case for the fly fishing life david and i discuss the different types of fly fishing that

00:00:37.900 exist and what they say about your personality stage in life and how we all choose the way we're going

00:00:42.280 to do something we then discuss the way that pursuits like fly fishing are not just about their

00:00:46.020 mechanics but the experience as a whole which includes things like eating hash browns first

00:00:50.380 thing in the morning at a diner in montana we talk about the importance of mentors and david's

00:00:54.320 experience with two old guys who showed him the fly fishing ropes we then get into why men love

00:00:58.240 getting ready for something as much as actually doing it before delving into the tension between

00:01:02.320 wanting to nab a fish and being okay when you don't and how part of growing up is learning how to care

00:01:07.060 but not care we in a conversation with the best route for getting into the fly fishing life and how

00:01:11.640 you can get started in a way that's both affordable and close to home after the show's over check out

00:01:15.740 our show notes at awim.is fly fish

00:01:18.200 all right david coggins welcome back to the show

00:01:27.620 brad it's great to be here

00:01:29.320 so we had you on way back in 2017 talk about your book how to develop your sense of style

00:01:36.820 and then we had you on again that's episode number 282 for those who want to check that out

00:01:41.520 we had you again on again in 2018 to talk about men and manners your book um so yeah you're you're

00:01:47.080 kind of like the style etiquette guy but you've got a secret you're also yes you're also an avid

00:01:53.700 fly fisherman when did you when did you start fly fishing when did it become your passion

00:01:58.580 well a long time actually we've i grew up in minneapolis and we have a cabin on a lake in wisconsin

00:02:05.660 and it's a really special place and so i would i would go out and fish from a boat just row out

00:02:11.520 and fish in a very conventional way for largemouth bass and then i started to fly fish probably when

00:02:18.100 i was 20 or so and kind of became addicted in my in my 20s so 20 years of the hard stuff

00:02:24.020 and it's sort of it it was a little bit of a secret and now it's it's less of a secret

00:02:29.380 all right so those who aren't familiar with fly fishing how does it differ from just like spin

00:02:33.600 fishing like you were talking about you just go to boat and just drop a line what's the difference

00:02:37.140 well it's not the direct way to get from point a to point b you're going to catch more fish spin

00:02:42.880 fishing which is just the first thing to know about it it's not really very efficient but that

00:02:47.200 doesn't mean it's not good it's uh when you're spin fishing the weight of the lure carries itself

00:02:53.060 out to to wherever you're fishing in when you're fly fishing you need to get generate line speed which

00:02:58.120 that famous sort of back and forth cast and then kind of delicately unfold a cast to a trout typically

00:03:04.200 that's how the sport began and that that means it's a little more poetic it's a lot more sensitive

00:03:09.440 maybe it's more like squash if spin casting is more like racquetball there's a little more nuanced

00:03:14.640 and and i i enjoy that very much and i think a lot of people get caught up in all that and that that

00:03:19.640 can be a good thing and then within fly fishing there's also different ways to fly fish as well

00:03:24.940 so what are the different ways you can fly fish well traditionally you're imitating the hatch of a

00:03:31.620 mayfly which which usually happens every day and so trout come and rise to eat those insects and so

00:03:38.600 it's the the kind of the platonic ideal of the sport is to cast upstream and to let this the drift of

00:03:45.200 your imitation fly float down towards a fish that's eating and as it kind of lingers over where you know

00:03:51.200 that fish to be because you've watched it eat it it comes up and takes the fly and that moment is

00:03:55.020 incredibly exciting that's sort of the the what what everybody wants to happen unfortunately like trout

00:04:00.960 don't always do that they don't always rise and so you have to make some decisions about if you want

00:04:05.020 to leave the pinnacle of the sport and go down to where the fish are and then you can nymph which is

00:04:10.480 where you have a sinking fly and some people like that because they catch more fish doing that and

00:04:15.220 other people sort of stick with their principles and always remind you that they're sticking with

00:04:18.860 their principles to fish on the surface if you were in england for instance you had on some of the

00:04:23.980 great famous chalk streams you're only allowed to fish on on the surface with the dry fly

00:04:28.060 then other people could fish with something called a streamer which you strip in that would be a little

00:04:33.360 bit more like conventional fishing a streamer kind of imitates a minnow or something like that and

00:04:37.300 darts and large fish come and eat it if you're lucky and some people like that too because that's how

00:04:42.500 they catch large fish but every one of these approaches is informed by by your own theories and

00:04:48.800 your own personality and so you tell me how you like to fish and I can tell you something about your

00:04:52.900 personality oh okay so if I said so if like if someone said I I just do the surface nothing else

00:04:59.860 what does that say but is that is that you are you just a surface fisher guy well so it kind of

00:05:03.620 changes as you get older doesn't it the same way all sorts of things change like if you sometimes you

00:05:08.520 want to catch a fish a certain way because it's the most difficult way and that satisfaction is

00:05:13.340 really is really nice and other times you're like forget that I want some action I want to catch more

00:05:18.380 fish and so then you want a nymph and that go down below the surface and sometimes you say I just

00:05:23.040 want to catch one the largest fish I can catch and I'll do whatever I can to get that and so one thing

00:05:28.420 that's interesting about fishing is you it you want different things at different times in your life

00:05:32.440 the same way you might like an album from a band when they're playing electric and you might like it

00:05:36.920 when Dylan goes acoustic and you at one point that really upset you but then as you get older you're

00:05:41.540 like you know actually that sounds pretty good and I think one thing that's wonderful about fly

00:05:45.680 fishing is that it provides an insight into a different window of your life and your expectations

00:05:51.280 and what you want from that time in your life so like right now in your time of life right now so

00:05:56.420 what you're in your 40s I imagine I'm in my 40s yeah all right so uh what where are you so every time I do

00:06:03.300 anything technological that works it's a miracle every time I can get on a zoom call that that's the age

00:06:07.860 I'm on where I'm surprised that it works I you know I like to I like to fish with a dry fly I usually go

00:06:13.620 through a progression so I start with the principled way that's like the dry fly and I try to convince a

00:06:19.420 trout to come up and take that fly and then I can handle that for an hour and a half you maybe a

00:06:25.800 couple hours and then am I like okay now I'm getting a little frustrated here you know your principles

00:06:30.300 shift over time it depends if you're with someone or on your own or in new water or at a place you

00:06:35.420 visit a lot so I like to I like a dry fly that's that's my favorite thing to do but sometimes you you

00:06:40.740 want a little action and there's nothing wrong with that I don't look down on anybody who nymphs I

00:06:44.780 mean the people who catch the most fish typically nymph because most of what a trout eats are nymphs

00:06:49.500 and so I sometimes like to do that too and if you do that that can be pretty exciting I think one thing

00:06:55.100 just to say about most trout fishing is that it's very and most fly fishing is that it's visual

00:06:59.880 and often on the surface so you see the fish come and take the fly and that's really exciting I mean

00:07:04.920 that is I don't care who you are like that that gets you going and so you've got a sport that in

00:07:10.560 many ways is is very methodical very peaceful very rhythmic very soothing but then it's punctuated

00:07:16.800 by these bursts of action and extreme excitement and it's very bracing and so those long periods of

00:07:23.160 waiting kind of give shape to those moments of action and excitement and you can't really have one

00:07:28.440 without the other right I mean what I like about your book is that you do it indirectly you don't

00:07:33.080 do it like this is a lesson for life but as you read it you're like oh I can see how this applies

00:07:38.880 other aspects of my life and I've been there where like there's I have like these principles I'm going

00:07:42.460 to do this because like this is the way you're supposed to do it but then eventually it's like

00:07:46.040 well no actually I want to get this thing done so I'm going to I'm going to do things to get this

00:07:50.780 done even though it's not the the right way to do it well it's like did you ever have a manual

00:07:56.160 transmission car and when I did and I my first car was that and I thought I will only ever drive a

00:08:01.500 manual and that was a big deal and then my next car miraculously was that too and I'm like yes

00:08:05.940 my manual transmission Saab and I felt you know very virtuous and connected to everything I was

00:08:11.200 doing and that's a little bit like fishing with the dry fly it's more difficult but you feel very

00:08:15.680 connected and then you finally like they don't really make many of those cars anymore you get

00:08:20.140 an automatic you're like you know what this isn't so bad maybe that's nymphing sometimes you want to

00:08:23.920 try other things and I think I think fly fishing you know fishing lends itself to metaphors and

00:08:28.860 that's both a blessing and a curse you know the one that got away and a thousand things and

00:08:33.660 Moby Dick and all the rest of it and I think but some of those metaphors do apply and I think

00:08:38.820 it really fly fishing allows you to kind of understand because it's often done in solitude

00:08:44.720 it allows you to kind of assess and because it's often you're not catching anything and so it off it

00:08:50.780 offers you a chance to assess something about yourself like what first of all the pleasures of

00:08:55.020 being alone but also what you need what you demand and expect from something that you care about

00:09:00.040 I do that with starting a fire I'll try to do it just like the boy scout way I want to get my tinder

00:09:05.060 my kindling exactly eventually it's like no all right where's the fire starter we got to get this

00:09:09.720 going we got to we got to roast marshmallows no I mean and that's why there's like there's that

00:09:15.440 it also depends if you're alone or with your friends right and then if you're like no I'm

00:09:19.320 going to do this in a very pure way and then other times no one's looking and you're like

00:09:22.780 putting the uh the fire you know the um lighter fluid on there when when people are away and

00:09:27.840 they're like what's that smelling like I don't know I just uh it's a big fire though right

00:09:32.360 this is great exactly so what I love this book is sort of your education as an angler and it

00:09:38.160 goes over decades and as I read it I was like man I want to become I want to become a fly fisherman

00:09:43.900 and I think a lot of people like they'll watch a river runs through it and they're like man I want

00:09:48.680 to become they love the idea of fly fishing because it's romantic but very few people become obsessed

00:09:55.420 like you and I think I'm I'd be one of those people like I think I like the idea but I don't

00:09:58.780 know if I actually if I do it I'd probably be like yeah not for me well it it does take

00:10:05.120 unfortunately for a wonderful sport there's a serious learning curve and and the cast is a kind

00:10:11.540 of a stumbling point for many people and the cast the fly cast is a huge part of a river runs

00:10:16.620 through it and he talks about his father's you know between a motion between 10 10 and 2 o'clock

00:10:21.620 and and I out tell people and this can reassure them or frighten them but there's so much more

00:10:26.960 than the cast you want to get your fly out there and have it delicately land on the water

00:10:31.200 but then there's so many other things beyond that which is kind of making it drift down the river in

00:10:36.220 a natural way if a fish comes using your hand-eye coordination and and kind of being steady to set the

00:10:42.920 hook and fight a fish and all of that comes together in a beautiful place in a beautiful setting

00:10:48.100 usually with people you like and that and there's a lot to be said for that to get to that point

00:10:53.000 requires some doing you know and I think that that's that's a challenge and I think that's a

00:10:57.300 challenge worth doing for anybody no matter what the thing they care about is it's often not easy

00:11:02.140 to get to a point where you're in control of the skills that are at stake and I I also tell people

00:11:07.980 fishing is more than just the fishing you know if we go out together it starts in the morning and we

00:11:13.600 we stop at a diner in Montana and we kind of have hash browns and we we drive to the river and there's

00:11:19.900 a feel a certain sense of anticipation as we put together our rod and assemble the rod and make our

00:11:25.300 tactical decisions and and anything could happen in the day and we feel great about it and then of

00:11:30.440 course you know we kind of maybe get our asses kicked and don't catch anything but right before

00:11:34.080 lunch you do catch something and then that's great and you have a beer and then you fish in the

00:11:38.020 afternoon and go back to the bar afterward and sit around a campfire at night and all those things

00:11:42.500 together are the fishing the not catching it the hopefully the triumph the the communal feeling you

00:11:47.860 have with someone you care about when you when he thrives or you you have success and all that

00:11:52.360 together to me is the experience the same way if you go to a great if you go to the opera maybe you

00:11:58.540 get dressed up and you look forward to it and you study it ahead of time so you know what's going on

00:12:02.700 maybe you fall asleep during it who knows what happens but it's not and you can't isolate the part of

00:12:09.260 fishing where it's not just the cast or even catching the fish it's all of these things together

00:12:13.480 and i hope to make the case in the book that that those things make a complete experience that can

00:12:19.080 really happen all over the world and be really special and and and kind of meaningful in your life

00:12:24.060 no i like that think i mean as i was reading like eating hash browns in montana like that sounds

00:12:29.500 awesome and again like going in this is like there's a metaphor for life that's how a lot of things in

00:12:33.260 life it's not just like a party but it's like getting ready for the party that's a lot of course

00:12:38.160 right well if you if you think about like going to a baseball game with your dad when you were a boy

00:12:43.880 like there might there's so much more maybe it's like crossing like entering the stadium and buying

00:12:49.260 a scorecard or you maybe you got to have like that soft pretzel that's the only place you ever had it

00:12:54.060 like and you and you see the green the first time you come out of the the gangway and to see the field

00:12:59.360 for the first time and all those things mixed together and then of course you want to see the home

00:13:02.500 team win and your heroes prevail but it's all of that coming together and you know the book takes

00:13:08.740 place like every chapter is a different place around the world and i think what's interesting

00:13:13.360 is all of these whether it's montana or patagonia or the bahamas or canada each of these places have

00:13:18.500 their own cultures so they have their own bad beers and their own food and their own way the guides are

00:13:23.740 and their own landscapes and their own different fish of course with different flies and different

00:13:27.540 tactics and so you can kind of fall in love with fishing in a different place in different ways and

00:13:33.320 also get humiliated in all these places you may be an expert trout fishing in montana and then you try

00:13:38.280 to go bone fishing in the bahamas and you're like wait a minute this is completely different there are a

00:13:42.160 few of the similar principles but it's almost like you're starting over again which is humbling and

00:13:46.700 exciting because then you can fall in love again too so uh let's talk about some of these places that you

00:13:52.120 highlight yeah part of your your education as an angler and along the way i think what we i'd like to do

00:13:56.920 is you know maybe give people a taste of fly fishing but also you know kind of suss out those life

00:14:02.740 lessons that you that i got from as i was reading this and one of the big ones that i got was the

00:14:08.840 importance of mentors and you start off the book talking about you know in wisconsin when you're in

00:14:14.000 your 20s you started getting into fly fishing and you fell into these two old guys kind of took you

00:14:19.600 under their wing and taught you the ropes so who were these these guys well they were friends of my

00:14:26.160 grandfather and my grandfather whose name is walter was a law professor and not really an outdoorsman

00:14:32.100 though he loved the natural world and there were these two men who were kind of legendary figures on

00:14:36.220 the lake one's name was carter who was a rationalist very specific in how he did everything and the

00:14:42.180 other's name was dave who was not like that at all was a very willful person and i think i was

00:14:47.240 intimidated by them when i was a boy and my grandfather always said you should go fishing with

00:14:51.060 them and i just i was i wasn't smart enough to know to be with these guys who were incredible

00:14:56.040 serious world-class anglers i mean it was my incredible good fortune my idiocy to not see

00:15:01.420 them sooner when i was young but my good fortune to start going out with them later basically they

00:15:05.840 just needed someone to to go on the canoe with them and i learned because fish fly fishing has learned

00:15:11.880 you you do need someone to help you in a perfect world it's your dad or an uncle or your whomever it is

00:15:18.400 grandfather it could be a guide or it could be a friend and i was lucky to have these two men teach

00:15:23.720 me and and they taught me in a in an indirect way i think that was sort of nice about it too i i often

00:15:30.860 didn't realize that they were teaching me something until much later because they were pretty for men who

00:15:36.040 were kind of difficult i think in their family lives were very discreet with me and probably they didn't

00:15:41.240 want to frighten me off so i wouldn't go out with them anymore they basically needed me to help them

00:15:44.920 kind of do these trips because you need two people to do it and i and i think it's as and now as i

00:15:50.760 fish more i love to help other people learn too in a way i never would have thought and it's really

00:15:57.720 exciting when somebody catches their first trout you you have a strong feeling i start i realize now

00:16:02.860 how sometimes adults lose their mind when they're coaching their like kids little league team

00:16:06.820 and like i don't have any kids but i'm like get very excited i'm like raw tip up i and i'm like

00:16:12.560 and if someone catches this trout it's like this incredible triumph that um that i'm i'm kind of

00:16:18.240 glad to be able to pass down now too the same way some of these these lessons were passed down to me

00:16:23.860 no and the way you describe your relationship with these guys i loved how you were able to capture how

00:16:28.840 indirect it was because i've had that experience too with mentors i never really had a mentor who just

00:16:33.720 like sat me down and be like here's the facts kids here's how you do things exactly it was just

00:16:38.820 they let me hang out with i mean i was just surprised they let me hang out with them

00:16:42.540 it's like this annoying guy who doesn't really know what he's doing and then you just it just

00:16:47.020 sort of rubs off on like what they're doing you watch and then they kind of give you some grunts

00:16:52.240 and some like positive affirmation that's very subtle and then along the way you you figure it out

00:16:58.320 and i don't it's it's kind of magical you read these blog posts like how to be a mentor i don't

00:17:03.160 like that's the best way to be a mentor is like be like dave and carter uh yeah well you know i think

00:17:09.040 i think what we we if somebody's really interested in something and obsessed and loves it you're going

00:17:15.380 to feel some of that connection and when you're with somebody on the water a guide it's really

00:17:20.480 exciting because they know so much about the fish of course but the landscape about the wildlife about

00:17:26.600 things all sorts of things that you just kind of absorb from being around them and so that the first

00:17:32.060 thing you kind of learn is their passion and then you observe their expert technique and sometimes

00:17:37.100 it usually people who are good at something it looks quite easy the way they do it so you don't

00:17:41.320 quite appreciate how good it is until you get better at it you're like oh wait what they've been doing

00:17:46.300 this whole time that looks simple it's like look at a sushi chef that looks easy as can be and if you

00:17:50.700 think it's easy we'll try it and you'll see how see how easy it is and so i think you respond to

00:17:56.300 people's passion and their expertise and people who are smart about it communicate

00:18:01.220 their like they don't tell you everything at once partly because it will overwhelm you they give you

00:18:06.960 little advice that they know you can handle and then they maybe give you some slightly more useful

00:18:12.020 little secret that you can kind of develop and work on the next time for the next time you're fishing

00:18:16.680 or the next time whatever it is and that's you know i mean that's a great thing and and the way

00:18:21.840 something is passed down i think something in fishing that's somewhat profound is that you're

00:18:25.760 under trying to understand the natural world and you kind of preserve it in some way and that

00:18:31.920 preservation happens from acts of of love and if you love an area landscape and you want to protect

00:18:38.860 it maybe for a selfish reason because you want to fish there but also for people who are coming after

00:18:42.900 you and i think that's a noble and worthwhile thing do you think for like our young listeners

00:18:47.580 like in their 20s they're like man i could use a mentor like can you proactively find a mentor what do

00:18:52.300 you think or is it you have to kind of magically find them like fall into them i think i you know

00:18:58.280 it's funny by the time you realize you want one often i think young people i mean really teenagers

00:19:03.600 like you you might be afraid of it's intimidating if it's a friend of your grandfather's because

00:19:08.240 you're used to their being authoritative or maybe they're gruff or they talk a certain way

00:19:11.860 but i my feeling with anybody is if you care about something or you're curious about something and

00:19:17.060 you see an older person who's good at it whether they're a writer or an angler or a cook or whatever

00:19:23.640 it is a painter and you if you like that and you are open and you can kind of keep your mouth shut

00:19:30.080 around them and let them talk to you they're they'll help you i mean that's been my experience

00:19:35.360 and that experience has been very important i've had very important writers and editors in my life

00:19:40.680 who are older than me my father was a very good editor for me and taught me things about

00:19:44.900 everything i i know basically not about writing about just about living and i think that if

00:19:49.960 people who even rough son of a guns and that's sort of the image of an old angler but those guys will

00:19:56.540 teach you and you you just want to kind of be present try to pay attention to what they have to

00:20:01.300 say try to be helpful and i'll tell you something about fishermen they they need someone to go with them

00:20:06.640 they need someone to row the boat and to drive the shuttle and to do all this stuff so it's in their

00:20:10.780 interest too so you know you show up with a six-pack and you know i think if you depending

00:20:15.880 on where you live if you're lucky maybe you you and a friend get a guide a hire a guide to go out

00:20:22.200 with and that's you know an investment but you learn so much and you see if you like it and then you can

00:20:26.880 you can kind of go from there we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:20:30.980 and now back to the show so with all the trips you highlight in the book and we talked about this

00:20:38.660 earlier you know fishing isn't just the fishing it's the the getting ready for the fishing and

00:20:43.500 that was probably some of my favorite parts because you talk about you get into detail of like

00:20:47.480 the the gear you were buying for this trip and like the ebay trips you know visits to ebay you'd make

00:20:54.080 and then you got into detail like you've got your car the back of your car packed so you can be ready

00:20:59.720 for a fishing trip i didn't just at the drop of a hat so yeah why do you i mean i think guys really

00:21:04.900 like this like what is it about like gear that guy i mean like i have an appreciation for i'll

00:21:10.160 probably never become a fly fisherman but like i really appreciated your well-stocked car so what's

00:21:16.440 going on there well the reason i think men like that sort of thing anyway you know i have my friends

00:21:22.220 who have 8 000 different cameras and i think it's specific to fishing because so much in fishing is out

00:21:28.580 of our control that having the correct gear gives us the illusion of control or a minimum just as much

00:21:35.860 control as we can have i mean that's why people who love to fish are constantly reading articles and

00:21:40.200 watching videos and and listening to podcasts and constantly trying to hoard advice because it's very

00:21:45.340 hard for us to admit how little control we have and having said that the gear is great you know i i love

00:21:51.940 finding old particularly patagonia waiting jackets from the 80s and 90s are just so cool and really

00:21:58.340 old waiting boots that i just like the style of and you can you know very specific bags and i've had

00:22:04.680 bags retrofitted in some way because i want them a certain way i like old fly boxes and then some of

00:22:10.380 that old stuff has not been improved upon and then some of it has been and then you have naturally have

00:22:14.740 to get the new the new reels or the new rods and sometimes the old ones work just as well which is

00:22:20.480 pretty fun to have something that maybe your grandfather had oh and sometimes it's nice to

00:22:24.720 have kind of the latest technology and there's some pretty amazing new reels so you can kind of it does

00:22:29.880 give people who are obsessed with this sort of thing a whole whole roads to go down and if you think

00:22:35.400 i'm the only one go on to fly ebay fly fishing because there's a whole insane number of people all over

00:22:40.800 the world looking for this stuff and again gear selection can highlight or reveal someone's

00:22:46.520 principles of fly fishing because there's you talk about like there's people who could just like

00:22:50.520 they're going to use just canvas the old stuff from like the 40s but then there's some people who

00:22:55.240 are like no i'm going to get like the latest 21st century material stuff and i'm sure there's some

00:23:01.380 snootiness going on there's like well that guy using the new stuff that's kind of cheating it's like

00:23:06.220 using a streamer right no it's it's it's so funny because you i didn't realize this when i started

00:23:13.280 but there is a complete like any any kind of subculture there's these hierarchies and ways

00:23:18.960 that the experts can kind of tell if you're new so if if somebody shows up on a fishing trip

00:23:23.140 and he he doesn't fish a lot and he but he's he's spent a lot of money on this trip and he's got all

00:23:28.680 the latest gear but it's never been used so like the rod handle has no kind of sweat stain on it

00:23:33.140 and and the guides are kind of like rolling their eyes thinking that this guy's got the latest and

00:23:37.080 greatest and that's going to save if you can't cast it doesn't matter if you've got a 800 fly rod

00:23:42.500 but at the same time i think all of these things express some are some way we imagine we like what

00:23:49.540 we want about form and function and sometimes i i make the mistake of trying to have old wax canvas

00:23:55.840 jackets and cool old barbers that were only released in england and then you're like wait a minute does

00:24:00.080 this even work in the rain i'm like well so what does my principle get me it gets me wet so then

00:24:05.020 you go to patagonia and you get some lightweight thing or you you try to find some some combination

00:24:10.160 of of something that works something that reflects your personality then you say well you know for a

00:24:16.080 long time i had not expensive gear at all and i i didn't feel comfortable if my rod was expensive or

00:24:21.240 something and i didn't think i needed it and i honestly couldn't tell the difference and then you

00:24:25.220 move to a different point in your life and maybe you've worked a little bit with a fishing

00:24:28.700 company and they're like here try this fancy rod and you're like hey now i i can get used to this

00:24:33.280 but you know sometimes you have one that isn't it you break a rod or all this other stuff happens and

00:24:37.880 so you you want to enjoy it you want to have something you like you want to get into the

00:24:42.040 design and kind of get a little bit too obsessed and then also you don't want to take it too seriously

00:24:45.900 but it's usually too late once once you go down the path i mean if when i go on a trip with someone

00:24:50.840 for weeks before i'm like sending them things that i think they might need it from ebay and

00:24:56.420 you know flasks and just random you know cool old flashlights and and different types of like

00:25:01.980 water bottles from switzerland from the 1920s and stuff that i just think would be fun to have

00:25:08.080 and it is fun are there people who fly fishing like tweed coats is that is that a thing you know

00:25:15.420 it's funny because i i love a tweed coat and i i do draw a line there myself you know the sport

00:25:22.480 began in england and and kind of wealthy people's estates and and they did actually wear tweed coats

00:25:31.840 and kind of and fish from the bank so they didn't even go into the water they didn't wade so they

00:25:36.440 could wear their country clothes you might call them while they fished with a you know a bamboo rod

00:25:42.300 and they would sit down and smoke a pipe and you know if you go to england that's still how it's done

00:25:46.480 you don't wear those clothes necessarily but you don't you don't wear waders the way we think of it

00:25:51.600 the streams are very kind of manicured and often there's mode on both sides it's very it's a

00:25:57.120 different feeling and i really really love a tweed jacket but i can't quite bring myself to wear a

00:26:04.560 tweed jacket to fish in but i don't judge anyone who does and and also traditionally they men anglers

00:26:11.660 wore ties because the trout especially the brown trout is a gentleman of fish and so you would dress

00:26:17.840 well to show respect when you tried to fish for him and you know most americans completely disregard

00:26:21.980 that and understandably so but that's that's kind of how the the sport began is a it's it's become

00:26:27.220 democratized over the years but if you go to england it's still kind of done that way so one thing you

00:26:32.900 you show throughout the book is that you know with fishing you're never guaranteed a fish right it's you

00:26:38.080 can do you can get all the gear you can plan perfectly you can have the perfect cast and you don't

00:26:44.080 catch anything it's like what have you learned about failure from fishing well it's about failure

00:26:51.020 the sport in many ways is about coming to terms with not getting what you want and then that makes

00:26:57.400 that makes a philosopher out of you even a even an entry philosopher 101 a college level philosopher

00:27:03.140 it does something to you and i think that that's worthwhile honestly and i have been on many trips i mean

00:27:09.820 there's and there's different levels of heartbreak there's just oh my goodness the weather up front

00:27:14.120 came through the whole day's awful and you know it's bad and that it's like when your team starts

00:27:18.880 out you're like this is just a lost season our team's terrible then there's a different way when

00:27:22.800 you think you have a fish you're at the last moment and you lose it and that's like your team almost

00:27:26.680 making the playoffs and then that unravels and that's a heartbreak in a different way

00:27:30.300 and you it's hard because sometimes it's your fault and you know it sometimes you can't explain it

00:27:35.980 sometimes it's physics you look around and sometimes you're alone no one can tell you of

00:27:40.220 a guide or someone can give you advice about how to change that the next time and i think

00:27:44.140 having coming to terms with that is kind of what makes you an adult to be honest and that's why it's

00:27:50.680 a sport for adults ultimately because it it tells you what you need what why do you need that certain

00:27:56.180 validation but then of course you do need it sometimes which is also maybe humbling in some way i mean

00:28:02.020 i was just on a trip to kind of celebrate the book i was in the bahamas on my own the happiest place i

00:28:09.220 could be on the flats and it was a really great day i mean the last day incredible everything was

00:28:15.320 wonderful i was feeling like very triumphant i was about to go back and have a glass of rum and just

00:28:21.100 listen to bob marley and like you know deal with my sunburn and we stop at one last place there's five

00:28:27.340 minutes left the day has been perfect and all of a sudden we see a fish which was in itself a

00:28:31.760 surprise i make a good cast hook the fish huge fish the guide's like that's a big fit and just

00:28:37.460 as he's saying that's a big fish which he doesn't normally say i'd made a little like my line got

00:28:41.680 caught around my reel so when the fish went on a run i lost it right away and so 10 minutes before i

00:28:46.720 was like this is the perfect day now at the very end of the trip i'm like wait a minute i got a little

00:28:51.020 bit of a funny taste in my mouth i just lost that last fish like but i didn't even know about the fish

00:28:55.900 10 minutes before so that then i was thinking well what do i want from this why do i need that when i had

00:29:00.980 all these other things i was perfectly happy if we had never seen that fish it wouldn't have mattered

00:29:04.260 but because i had made a mistake a mistake that i flatter myself i don't normally make which is a

00:29:09.660 terrible thing to hear yourself say i never make this type of mistake when you do it and then you're

00:29:13.920 like hmm what now i've got a different feeling and it's it's you know it's humbling i've got to think

00:29:19.120 about it for the entire flight back i'm still thinking about no there's a lot of metaphors for life

00:29:23.260 there i think we've all had that experience where you were perfectly happy and then you saw this thing

00:29:27.920 i want it and you don't get it now you're just miserable right right and then but the fact that

00:29:33.680 i know that it's happening makes it way worse because like i also think i'm like let's keep it in

00:29:38.740 perspective nothing can ruin this and then you're like wait a minute and it didn't and i was you know

00:29:43.380 it was half an hour of sort of consternation and you know you laugh with the guide and you say

00:29:48.620 i'll see you next year man i'll be thinking about you like keep your eye out for that fish and

00:29:52.420 and that's you know you've got to embrace the irrationality i think of it and and i think what

00:29:57.760 i love about anglers who are often you know crusty old guys is like there's still this both sense of

00:30:03.740 optimism that they believe they're going to catch the fish and they still do it again and again you've

00:30:07.800 got to believe but also you've suffered or lost in some way and so you have this kind of scar tissue

00:30:14.500 or this heartbreak and that that makes you a little bit wistful and i like that quality in people

00:30:19.400 and i think that that's that's a good thing to have and i think anybody who no not really a golfer

00:30:24.380 but like golf is a very hard sport right and so people remember lipping out putts so they were this

00:30:30.020 close and i and i understand that that kind of exquisite aggravation that they feel and i sympathize

00:30:37.480 with that i think there's that's a kind of universal feeling and honestly i think hopefully this book can

00:30:43.080 connect with people like you who don't fish but who understand the nature of obsession or who

00:30:49.220 care about building a skill over time who measure themselves against something that they care about

00:30:55.100 even if that skill doesn't have any actual implication other than the meaning we bring to

00:31:00.640 it and so hopefully the book can connect with people about in that way you did and like you know

00:31:05.340 you talked about that optimism that's the name of the book is called the optimist like you say

00:31:08.760 angling is it's an act of faith every time you go you're having faith that something's going to

00:31:14.080 happen yes yes well you have to i mean i think like the there's definitely something in where you

00:31:22.720 talk to your friend and you're like is this a good have you you know it's like when you go to the

00:31:26.040 next bar when you're a younger guy right and then somehow you end up somewhere at five in the

00:31:30.700 morning and it made sense at the time and like that's kind of fishing in some way it's sort of it

00:31:34.740 made sense but the time when it made sense was sort of a few bars ago a few hours ago and i think

00:31:40.460 that that act of faith is i i like it i'm attracted to it i like people who feel that way and and also

00:31:47.420 i think it's an actual a little bit chemical addiction because the same when a fly is floating

00:31:52.880 over where you know a fish is you do get a an incredible rush the same way somebody would get a

00:31:58.340 rush if they're scratching off a lottery ticket that that chemical chemistry is very similar and um

00:32:03.740 and it doesn't last and you don't win the lottery and you usually don't catch the fish but that's all

00:32:08.000 right you know i loved how honest you were with you know you're writing about failure because like

00:32:12.960 i think a lot of times you know you say a lot of fishermen well you know it's not the the fishing

00:32:17.840 that counts it's the experience and yeah and you said yeah but i i want to catch a fish like i've had

00:32:24.460 that i've had that moment where i'm like you know lecturing my son about oh well it's not whether you

00:32:29.780 win or lose it's how you play the game but i like deep down like no it's it's fun to win um that's it

00:32:36.300 and like you said that's completely fine you don't have to be philosophical and sort of this stoic

00:32:40.080 about your failures right i mean try to be but like it's okay to like want to catch a fish that's

00:32:44.980 completely fine right well yeah it's like we it's all very human like ultimately all of these things

00:32:52.080 are human and and i think that we we see recognize our different you know when you start to fish like

00:32:59.080 there are actually specific things you can do with kids to try to get them into the sport so that would

00:33:03.440 be like fishing for panfish like a bluegill or a perch because those are really easy fish to catch

00:33:09.540 on a fly rod and there's a lot of action and it kind of gets kids going that's a good way for

00:33:14.100 for like 10 or 12 year olds to start and that's natural that's completely natural and then there's

00:33:20.520 something about either your personality is such that you like to do something that's slightly more

00:33:25.800 difficult or your personality is not like that or you give yourself time and maybe you're not that way

00:33:31.820 when you're 25 but when you're 35 you just like something that's a little more methodical

00:33:35.820 and that's i think fly fishing is an easy way to kind of understand where we are in our lives

00:33:41.160 and that and that's a good thing and i have friends who fly fish and they want to catch fish and even

00:33:47.100 though they like to you know they're fly fishing but like they want action and they want to fish in a

00:33:51.020 way that gets them action and there are of course ways to do that and then other people just want to be in a

00:33:56.880 beautiful place they want to catch a wild fish a native fish that grew up in that place and they

00:34:01.420 don't care how big or small it is and and they want some other kind of some other experience from

00:34:07.200 it maybe they want to catch it on a um fly that they've made themselves maybe they don't even want

00:34:12.880 to catch it they just want the fish to come and take the fly so that shows that maybe that's the

00:34:17.940 moment the same way some people who hunt for turkeys or just want to call and have the turkey respond to

00:34:22.640 the call they don't necessarily want to shoot them and sometimes you want to you just want to test a

00:34:27.260 certain part of your own kind of arsenal of skills and that that happens when you've done it a lot

00:34:32.180 more and you've caught a lot of fish then you don't catching them you want to do it a certain way

00:34:35.740 and that's part of the sport too and a good part of it yeah that's part of life is figuring out what

00:34:40.400 you want yeah exactly and this carries over to that your your uh book about style that was kind of

00:34:45.660 what you don't like your style book wasn't like here's what you need to wear it was like

00:34:49.360 figure out what you want figure out your style and go with that and i think that's pretty much

00:34:53.900 life is figure out what works for you so uh fishing is often a solitary thing you went on a lot of

00:35:00.340 fishing trips on your own like you just went to the bahamas by yourself but you also you fish with

00:35:05.280 friends it's kind of the stereotypical archetypical like going on a fishing trip with my buddies

00:35:09.580 how does fishing with a friend change the dynamic between with the fishing but also with the

00:35:17.460 friendship oh well so i always joke that the most important women in my life of course are like my

00:35:23.940 sister my girlfriend but also the wives of my friends because the wives of my friends are they're

00:35:28.760 the ones who ultimately decide if they can go on fishing trips with me so i always try to stay on

00:35:34.120 good terms with them because it's usually the guys who are coming with me and you know fishing with a

00:35:38.760 friend is a really great thing i mean to me like i don't i'm not competitive about fishing i fish with

00:35:43.940 some incredible anglers who you know like do things that i cannot dream of doing and i don't get upset

00:35:49.740 about that i like watching them i'm inspired by them the same way i was inspired by dave and carter

00:35:54.020 different things are at stake for different people it's like a golf handicap and then now i have friends

00:35:59.060 who are beginning and i just am happy to be out with them i'm happy to spend time with them especially

00:36:02.880 as they have families and it gets harder to do that like there are no more kind of dirt bagging road

00:36:07.900 trips across montana now it's like a day or two and i really value those days and you know you want

00:36:13.680 them to succeed if you if you especially if it's your kind of trip and you've planned it you want

00:36:18.720 them to catch fish you want them to be happy you also want it like the planning is fun too and like

00:36:23.800 should we bring a fancy bottle of scotch and should who's going to bring the cigars and i'll bring these

00:36:28.580 flies and i know a great guide and we've got to stop at this bar and then you know in a perfect world

00:36:33.760 everyone catches fish about the same numbers and sometimes they don't and then you got you can navigate

00:36:40.220 it from there and you try to give someone an advantage and they're in the front of the boat

00:36:43.800 if you're floating because then they had a better shot and then sometimes you switch around and

00:36:47.540 i mean it's it's pretty funny if you go bone fishing and you need you can't have clouds because

00:36:54.480 you need the sun to see the fish and it's also complicated if there's a lot of wind it's just very

00:36:58.600 hard to cast and usually like one person fishes at a time so one person's up in the bow

00:37:04.080 and when you and then you get a chance at a fish and if you mess it up then you sit down

00:37:08.100 your friend goes up there and as soon as he gets up there like the sky clears up the wind dies down

00:37:14.940 the fish seems like much easier and you're like what's going on here of course you're like god

00:37:19.480 is taking his side but you know psychological things like that happen but it's still just great

00:37:24.180 to be with your friends and hopefully in a perfect world you start a tradition and you do like cut out

00:37:29.880 these days and you go to maine with one friend or you go to the bahamas with friends and sometimes like

00:37:35.540 i got invited on the trip because someone cancels at the last minute and then it started a whole new

00:37:39.400 tradition that i didn't even expect i was just the spare guy and the next thing i know i'm like

00:37:43.660 completely obsessed with the bahamas and i couldn't stop going no and you also it's fishing with friends

00:37:49.980 also highlights the dynamic how it's easier to you know be philosophical about fly fishing when someone

00:37:55.920 else is having a hard time but then when it's you you're like yeah this sucks i mean you talked about

00:38:02.420 you went on a trip with your friend andrew and you're hoping it would be a really good trip and

00:38:05.880 like he wasn't catching anything you're like well you know you're doing everything right like it's

00:38:10.280 the experience that matters and then he started catching fish and you weren't catching fish and all

00:38:16.400 of a sudden you were no longer a philosopher you were you were getting upset about this right well

00:38:21.180 yeah so this was a classic example of my friend andrew who's you know he's got a wife and kids very

00:38:26.540 busy life and so i somehow managed to pry him away from all this to go to the main north woods

00:38:31.680 and he he doesn't fish too much but is you know because he's he's got all that full full life and

00:38:38.380 so he was struggling a little bit when i felt badly and what we were doing was pretty hard anyway and it

00:38:42.860 was just difficult and i was saying all these you know serving up these platitudes right and left

00:38:48.060 and i'm sure i was completely you know exhausting for him to try to cheer him up and then all of a sudden

00:38:53.600 he starts catching the one fish after another and i'm sort of not catching him and it's like

00:38:57.680 what's happening here and and then i and then he was too polite to start using any of this

00:39:03.020 philosophizing back on me but um it was you know it's good to do that and it's good to have those

00:39:08.220 experiences where somebody you know you can laugh about it or something happens that's crazy and

00:39:12.700 somebody's whatever falls in the river and and it's it's nice to be able to share that with someone else

00:39:17.580 so you uh you finally make it to england and as you said this is like this is where the sport began

00:39:21.640 and this is a big deal for you actually you purposely like waited to make this trip to england

00:39:26.620 you wanted to make sure you got your education as much as you could polish your skills here in america

00:39:31.740 you go to england what did you learn about fly fishing by fishing in the the sports birthplace

00:39:38.900 yeah well you know it's it's funny when you when you start to to really care about something and want

00:39:45.380 to make these pilgrimages you you kind of want to be ready for it to do your part and this got very

00:39:50.200 complicated because the book was you know the book was being written and then covet happened so to go

00:39:56.940 there and the last thing place i was supposed to go is england so i went there last summer

00:40:01.380 if i didn't go the whole book would have been postponed for you it would have been a very

00:40:05.380 complicated situation and i i quarantined so the first thing i learned i quarantined for two weeks

00:40:10.920 so i could fish for four days so that basically tells me i'm insane but that's all right and it was in

00:40:17.000 the english countries i was actually quite quite beautiful and a good time to be there and stayed

00:40:20.800 in a in a farmhouse with my girlfriend and then i was you know it's funny when you when you do

00:40:27.600 anything as you get older you you both you i don't know if i wanted to be demystified or if i still want

00:40:34.400 to have these illusions about it and i i learned that it was very challenging i was there at kind of the

00:40:40.200 wrong time partly because of covid so i already had my excuses about why i wasn't going to catch fish

00:40:44.700 but it was it's the sport operates at a different pace there and it's funny you know i'm i like england

00:40:51.580 a lot i've spent a fair amount of time there but it you you don't they have a slightly less democratic

00:40:56.280 way than then you have fishing the water's not public basically you have to pay a landowner to to

00:41:02.620 fish a specific section of of a river a beat it's called and and it's much more i guess you'd say

00:41:08.840 gentlemanly and that's absolutely not for everyone but it's still pretty fun for a few days

00:41:13.560 and it was i got there and after waiting all this time it was the fishing the conditions were really

00:41:19.580 rough and i was kind of getting frustrated even though i knew all of this thing i've just been

00:41:24.880 writing a book been totally obsessed about perspective and the long view and you can't put

00:41:29.720 too much emphasis on one hour or even one day and like that just wasn't getting me very far

00:41:35.020 i was i still want this is where you're like i want to catch a fish but the fish basically

00:41:40.180 weren't rising and it was too late in the season and it was you can't use certain tactics there

00:41:45.080 and finally on a famous river but i don't want to give away too much but it because this is the very

00:41:51.220 end of the book but it it aligns all right and and i i did okay and i i left with my pride intact

00:41:56.720 but i was but i was embarrassed to admit it mattered so much to me i'm sorry i know that's part of the

00:42:01.680 thing it's like is that you you both you you know it shouldn't matter and then of course it matters

00:42:06.600 and and and i think coming to terms with that dynamic is is a very human moment and and and that

00:42:14.140 can happen in anything like you can say i how much success do i want in my life and it shouldn't matter

00:42:18.340 but it does or it how many how much does this matter but it doesn't and you and you try to navigate that

00:42:24.140 and that's a real moment of self-knowledge yeah learning to care but not care that's it's it's it's a

00:42:32.340 tough one and not always flattering either so for those who are you know they're listening to this

00:42:38.720 like man i want to become an angler like what's the best way is it just to go hire a guide somewhere

00:42:43.180 you know in in a perfect world what i what i would do with if you know a lot of things depend on you

00:42:50.080 know as we call it the current situation but what i would what i recommend to people is to pick a

00:42:55.400 weekend and try to hire a guide and go with a friend and so you're like splitting the cost right and

00:43:00.740 hire a guide for a day and that guide will have gear don't even though i love all the gear don't

00:43:06.640 get caught up in getting rods and reels and waiters and all that stuff it's too complicated you don't

00:43:10.560 know it's too much of a it'll keep you from doing it you get a guide for a day and if you've got a

00:43:15.860 second day you can rent that gear from him and go kind of back to nearby water and and give it a shot

00:43:21.840 on your own with your friend and then you've got it you've had this nice you know perfect world maybe

00:43:26.520 you get the guide both days or that gets a little more expensive and and that's a way that you're

00:43:30.780 you want to be on the water one day with an expert that just is is honestly accelerates everything

00:43:37.340 by a year of you just being on your own once you do that then you can start worrying more about

00:43:43.120 learning to cast better kind of what line management as we say and a few other things

00:43:48.780 and so i think it's great to do it with a friend because then you've got someone to kind of

00:43:52.860 that you learn with that you can start traditions with and and that you you make these trips with

00:43:58.420 and and or your dad or your your son or whomever it is somebody that or daughter for that matter

00:44:03.600 probably be better fisherman than than her dad in no time and um or couples i don't want to act i

00:44:09.720 mean women learn fly fishing much faster than men that's just a basic fact as any guide will tell

00:44:14.740 you and so i do think that that's like even though the gear is fun i i think slow down on that try to

00:44:20.520 get on the water with someone who really knows orvis has these schools that they're kind of

00:44:25.000 bringing them back they were slowed down because of covid those are really good to do and and fish

00:44:29.460 near you you know it doesn't have to be trout fishing there's great ways to fly fish all over

00:44:33.960 the country whether it's for stripers whether it's for redfish whether it's for smallmouth bass

00:44:39.420 and and i think it's good to i mean it's great to go to montana idaho and do that but you want to

00:44:45.200 have a place that you can go within a few hours of your house and nearly everywhere in america there's good

00:44:49.580 fly fishing two hours away i think that's a good that's a good point because i think a lot of

00:44:53.320 people they think fly fishing is it's if you got to fly it's got to be it's going to be expensive

00:44:58.040 you got to buy all this expensive gear you got to travel but you even said like my favorite you've

00:45:02.420 been to all these great places but you said your favorite spot to fish is like in new york

00:45:05.960 somewhere yeah i mean you're going to have different connections to different places you know

00:45:11.700 also it's like you know you go to a fancy restaurant sometimes and that's maybe good once a year

00:45:15.900 and then there's a place you go all the time that you that you like because of the way it is so i i

00:45:20.600 fish in the catskills that's my you know local water my home water and i you know i love it at

00:45:25.820 different times of year and i can see it as it changes and you know fishing is about being outside

00:45:30.540 like in the simplest way you're in a usually in a beautiful place not staring at your cell phone

00:45:35.700 and that's that's a good thing you're already you're already doing the right you already started

00:45:39.540 your day right already and and i think it's i i love all the kind of mythology around the

00:45:44.640 sport but i also think it keeps people from getting into it and um and that's too bad because

00:45:49.220 getting into it is is a is is a good thing to do well david where can people go to learn more about

00:45:54.320 the book and your work you know i've got i'm in the little media ecosystem now too you can subscribe

00:46:01.600 to my god newsletter this is how long it's been since i've talked to you i've got a newsletter

00:46:06.140 the contender on substack but you can you can find my book you can order it from your local bookstore

00:46:10.820 which is a good way to do it or you can order it from the usual suspects and uh you can find me on

00:46:16.720 instagram where i'll i link to all this nonsense at david r coggins it's always great to talk to you

00:46:21.420 but i really appreciate it likewise david coggins thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:46:24.320 my guest today was david coggins he's the author of the book the optimist a case for the fly fishing

00:46:29.580 life it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can find out more information about

00:46:33.200 his work at his substack thecontender.substack.com check it out also check out our show notes at

00:46:38.240 awim.is slash fly fish where you find links to resources where you delve deeper into this topic

00:46:42.800 well that wraps up another edition of the awim podcast check out our website at artofmanliness.com

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00:47:26.120 this is brett mckay reminding you to not only listen to the awim podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:47:36.540 what you've heard into me

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The Art of Manliness - May 05, 2021

The (Non-Cliche) Life Lessons of Fly Fishing

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