The Art of Manliness - The Power of NEAT — Move a Little to Lose a Lot

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett.

00:00:00.680 We're taking a break for new episodes this week.

00:00:02.260 So we're going to rebroadcast episode number 955,

00:00:05.420 The Power of Neat, Move a Little to Lose a Lot.

00:00:08.060 This is with Dr. James Levine.

00:00:09.280 It's all about non-exercise activity thermogenesis.

00:00:12.540 Hope you enjoy it.

00:00:13.280 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

00:00:23.240 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:00:25.200 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:27.460 Do you have a goal to lose weight?

00:00:28.900 If so, you're probably thinking about

00:00:30.960 how you need to exercise more,

00:00:32.600 and that can certainly help.

00:00:34.200 But what about the 23 hours a day you're not at the gym?

00:00:37.220 How much you move during those hours,

00:00:38.880 from walking to the mailbox to fidgeting at your desk,

00:00:41.660 can be just as important in winning the battle of the bulge.

00:00:44.820 Here to explain the importance of what's called

00:00:46.340 non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or NEAT,

00:00:49.620 is Dr. James Levine, a professor,

00:00:52.120 the co-director of the Mayo Clinic's

00:00:53.720 Obesity Solutions Initiative,

00:00:55.560 the inventor of the treadmill desk,

00:00:56.820 and the author of Get Up.

00:00:58.900 While Your Chair Is Killing You,

00:01:00.160 and what you can do about it.

00:01:01.760 James explains how much more sedentary you are

00:01:03.700 than we used to be,

00:01:04.740 and what happens to your body

00:01:05.660 when you spend half of your day sitting.

00:01:07.500 He shares how doing the lightest kinds

00:01:09.000 of physical activity, even standing more,

00:01:11.180 can help you lose a significant amount of weight

00:01:13.040 and improve other aspects of your health,

00:01:14.900 from your sleep to your mood.

00:01:16.820 And we talk about how you can easily incorporate

00:01:18.500 more NEAT into your day.

00:01:20.340 After the show's over,

00:01:21.120 check out our show notes at aom.is slash NEAT.

00:01:33.920 All right.

00:01:35.020 James Levine, welcome to the show.

00:01:37.080 Thank you so much for having me, Brett.

00:01:39.120 So you have spent your career researching obesity,

00:01:42.240 particularly how our physical activity levels

00:01:45.040 can contribute to how trim we are,

00:01:47.100 or how fat we are.

00:01:48.720 When it comes to the way our body burns

00:01:51.140 or uses calories,

00:01:52.660 you've broken down in your work,

00:01:54.440 and there's basically three ways

00:01:56.120 our bodies burn calories.

00:01:57.280 What are those three ways

00:01:58.320 our body uses calories? 0.99

00:01:59.720 Yeah, the three basic ways we burn calories

00:02:03.160 are there is the basal metabolism.

00:02:05.780 Basal metabolism accounts for about 60% of the total.

00:02:10.080 The bigger you are, the bigger your basal metabolism,

00:02:12.680 or more specifically,

00:02:14.180 the greater your lean body mass,

00:02:16.140 the greater your basal metabolism.

00:02:18.640 Now, what's important is,

00:02:20.540 yes, it's actually the majority burn,

00:02:22.840 but you can't change it.

00:02:25.100 So moving on,

00:02:26.320 the next one is the thermic effect of food.

00:02:29.280 It counts for about 11% of the total.

00:02:32.520 Now, those are the calories you expend

00:02:35.880 when you convert your meal

00:02:37.880 into intermediary metabolites

00:02:39.760 like glycogen and glucose.

00:02:41.880 So if you have three meals a day,

00:02:43.680 you're going to have three thermic effects of food.

00:02:46.300 It accounts for about 11% of the total.

00:02:49.000 Guess what?

00:02:49.820 You can't really change it.

00:02:51.740 Now, the remaining component, right?

00:02:54.380 We've done 60, we've done 10,

00:02:56.020 so the remaining component

00:02:57.100 is about 30% on average

00:02:59.000 of the calorie burn

00:03:00.500 is through activity.

00:03:02.280 Activity

00:03:02.760 is either

00:03:04.200 non-exercise activity

00:03:06.200 or

00:03:07.040 putting on your lycra

00:03:08.520 spandex shorts.

00:03:10.160 I know,

00:03:10.840 Brett,

00:03:11.160 I think you adore those,

00:03:13.040 and going off for a run,

00:03:14.400 right?

00:03:14.600 We all know what exercise is,

00:03:16.580 but

00:03:17.200 most people around the world

00:03:18.700 actually don't

00:03:19.580 take purposeful exercise

00:03:21.180 at all.

00:03:22.320 So all of their calorie burn

00:03:24.080 through activity

00:03:25.200 is through

00:03:25.880 non-exercise

00:03:27.580 activity.

00:03:29.240 And in terms of calories,

00:03:30.360 we call that

00:03:30.780 non-exercise activity

00:03:32.580 thermogenesis.

00:03:34.820 And Brett,

00:03:35.300 as a micro sidebar,

00:03:36.880 if I may,

00:03:38.080 even if you do go

00:03:39.620 and do Pilates

00:03:40.720 three times a week

00:03:42.120 or whatever that may be,

00:03:43.680 when you actually

00:03:45.120 work out

00:03:46.780 how many calories

00:03:47.780 you burn

00:03:48.400 doing those

00:03:48.960 three classes,

00:03:50.000 which are 30 minutes

00:03:51.160 and you've done

00:03:52.260 the three times a week,

00:03:53.020 you've driven there

00:03:53.980 and so on

00:03:54.840 and so forth,

00:03:56.200 that only averages out

00:03:57.800 to about

00:03:59.040 100 calories

00:04:00.660 a day

00:04:01.380 and that's if you're

00:04:02.220 having a proper

00:04:02.820 workout.

00:04:03.660 And so,

00:04:04.140 really,

00:04:05.180 for nearly everybody

00:04:06.200 listening to the podcast,

00:04:08.700 your non-exercise

00:04:09.960 activity

00:04:10.540 thermogenesis

00:04:11.260 are the calories

00:04:12.060 you burn

00:04:12.580 through daily

00:04:13.640 energy

00:04:14.480 activity.

00:04:16.160 So,

00:04:16.280 non-exercise

00:04:17.060 activity

00:04:17.700 thermogenesis

00:04:18.360 shorthand,

00:04:19.120 it's NEAT.

00:04:19.780 It's called NEAT.

00:04:20.700 NEAT.

00:04:21.180 So,

00:04:21.680 basically,

00:04:22.100 it's just

00:04:22.240 anytime you move

00:04:23.120 during the day,

00:04:23.720 like I'm standing up

00:04:24.640 while doing this interview,

00:04:25.680 talking to you,

00:04:26.360 I'm gesticulating,

00:04:27.600 that is NEAT,

00:04:28.580 correct?

00:04:29.700 NEAT are the calories

00:04:30.720 you burn

00:04:31.120 throughout the day.

00:04:31.880 That is exactly correct.

00:04:33.180 And I'm also standing up,

00:04:34.680 Brett.

00:04:34.980 There we go.

00:04:36.060 Twin standards.

00:04:37.940 But yeah,

00:04:38.560 it's all those calories

00:04:39.480 you burn throughout the day

00:04:40.500 and it's

00:04:41.540 the calories you burn

00:04:42.820 sort of as you get out

00:04:43.780 of bed

00:04:44.280 and go make coffee

00:04:45.320 and go and collect

00:04:46.440 the mail

00:04:46.900 from the mailbox.

00:04:48.360 It's the mooching

00:04:49.240 around you do

00:04:50.140 during your day.

00:04:50.860 It's even

00:04:51.320 sort of the tapping

00:04:52.300 on the table

00:04:53.080 as you're waiting

00:04:54.080 for the website

00:04:55.260 to upload.

00:04:56.920 And it's sort of

00:04:57.860 chopping up vegetables

00:04:58.940 in the evening

00:04:59.660 as you're making your dinner.

00:05:00.780 It's wandering around

00:05:01.460 the supermarket.

00:05:02.200 It's all those things

00:05:03.440 you do

00:05:04.180 that aren't

00:05:05.260 sleeping and eating.

00:05:06.520 And how many calories

00:05:08.780 I mean,

00:05:09.080 you've figured this out.

00:05:09.900 How many calories

00:05:10.680 do we burn

00:05:11.320 in a typical

00:05:11.840 NEAT activity?

00:05:12.740 So if we're just

00:05:13.380 walking from

00:05:14.580 the couch

00:05:15.640 to the kitchen

00:05:16.420 or we're doing laundry,

00:05:18.440 how much does it

00:05:19.960 actually burn?

00:05:21.580 So let's think

00:05:22.580 about that

00:05:23.140 first of all

00:05:24.080 as what's your NEAT

00:05:25.440 for the day

00:05:26.060 and then

00:05:26.960 how do you actually

00:05:27.860 get to that number?

00:05:29.620 So as we sort of

00:05:31.360 agreed,

00:05:32.380 it's about 30%

00:05:33.520 of your calories

00:05:34.260 throughout the day.

00:05:34.800 So that's going to be about

00:05:36.200 for an average person

00:05:36.920 about 700 calories.

00:05:38.620 Now what's really,

00:05:39.460 really interesting

00:05:40.220 about NEAT

00:05:40.840 is if you sort of

00:05:41.500 look at this,

00:05:42.840 if you compare

00:05:43.420 hundreds of people,

00:05:44.780 the data set

00:05:45.640 is 576 people

00:05:47.660 living in

00:05:48.740 high-income countries.

00:05:50.160 What you can see

00:05:51.160 is actually

00:05:51.980 an astonishing

00:05:52.920 variation.

00:05:54.640 Some people

00:05:55.300 will burn

00:05:55.980 2,000 calories

00:05:57.460 a day more

00:05:58.300 NEAT

00:05:58.880 than other people.

00:06:00.660 Example,

00:06:01.400 if you happen

00:06:01.960 to be a male person

00:06:03.080 delivering mail

00:06:03.900 on foot

00:06:04.500 throughout your day

00:06:05.400 or you work

00:06:06.580 in agriculture,

00:06:08.320 you can actually

00:06:09.020 be burning

00:06:09.480 2,000 calories

00:06:10.700 a day more

00:06:11.220 through your NEAT

00:06:12.000 than if you're

00:06:12.740 actually sitting

00:06:13.500 behind your desk

00:06:14.740 all day long

00:06:15.580 and then sitting

00:06:16.200 in the evening

00:06:16.900 in your

00:06:17.600 sort of rather

00:06:18.600 comfy armchair.

00:06:20.860 Now how does

00:06:21.760 that actually compute?

00:06:23.420 Now what's

00:06:23.860 most important

00:06:24.960 about all of this

00:06:26.080 is that

00:06:27.140 sort of the biggest

00:06:28.960 way of burning

00:06:29.700 calories through

00:06:30.440 your NEAT

00:06:30.940 is to get off

00:06:31.640 your bottom

00:06:32.120 and walk

00:06:33.400 and I don't

00:06:33.860 necessarily mean

00:06:34.900 sort of striding

00:06:36.080 around,

00:06:36.580 I mean

00:06:36.880 mooching around.

00:06:38.840 So if you get up

00:06:40.040 and just walk

00:06:40.660 at one mile an hour

00:06:41.580 which we call

00:06:42.140 shopping speed,

00:06:43.100 that's sort of

00:06:43.480 the speed

00:06:44.000 when you're going

00:06:44.560 through TJ Maxx

00:06:45.780 looking for the best deal,

00:06:47.140 you're walking on average

00:06:48.000 about one mile an hour,

00:06:49.260 you double

00:06:50.200 your energy expenditure,

00:06:52.020 you're burning

00:06:52.680 an extra

00:06:53.380 100 calories

00:06:54.440 an hour.

00:06:55.300 So you can

00:06:55.740 immediately appreciate

00:06:56.820 if you spend

00:06:57.580 two hours online

00:06:58.620 doing your shopping

00:06:59.460 sitting on your bottom

00:07:00.580 versus mooching

00:07:02.560 around at the mall

00:07:03.640 for a couple

00:07:04.740 of hours,

00:07:05.580 there's 200 calories

00:07:06.720 right there.

00:07:08.260 Now if you walk

00:07:09.140 a little bit faster

00:07:10.120 at two miles an hour,

00:07:11.520 you're at 150

00:07:12.520 calories an hour.

00:07:13.600 So now,

00:07:15.080 Brett,

00:07:15.360 you and I

00:07:15.820 are both upstanding

00:07:16.820 as we're doing

00:07:17.360 this podcast.

00:07:17.960 We could either

00:07:18.660 sort of sit down

00:07:19.680 absolutely statically

00:07:21.160 still,

00:07:22.320 right,

00:07:22.640 and burn 0.95

00:07:23.020 almost nothing

00:07:23.960 above basal,

00:07:25.140 or we could

00:07:26.380 sort of stroll

00:07:27.280 at about two miles

00:07:28.360 an hour,

00:07:28.660 which is the speed

00:07:29.500 of a walk

00:07:29.980 and talk meeting

00:07:30.740 and burn 0.95

00:07:31.480 150 calories

00:07:32.740 each.

00:07:33.880 And so,

00:07:34.300 when you actually

00:07:35.120 compare people

00:07:35.840 with very high

00:07:36.620 neat to people

00:07:37.400 with very low

00:07:38.200 neat,

00:07:39.080 people with very

00:07:39.860 low neat

00:07:40.320 are sitting

00:07:40.720 on their bottoms

00:07:41.340 all day,

00:07:42.260 people with

00:07:42.780 the highest

00:07:43.400 neat are up

00:07:44.260 mooching around

00:07:45.240 doing stuff

00:07:46.300 on their feet,

00:07:46.940 whether that's

00:07:47.440 at work

00:07:48.000 or at play.

00:07:50.740 And today,

00:07:51.220 what's the typical

00:07:51.900 amount of neat

00:07:52.540 that most Americans

00:07:54.000 get?

00:07:54.160 I think you said

00:07:54.600 700 calories?

00:07:56.520 Yeah,

00:07:56.680 that would be

00:07:57.060 a reasonable

00:07:58.120 number,

00:07:58.660 right there.

00:07:59.520 But again,

00:08:00.120 as you're listening

00:08:00.940 to this,

00:08:01.400 remember the key

00:08:02.120 thing,

00:08:02.580 Brett,

00:08:02.900 is that this

00:08:03.480 is highly

00:08:04.160 variable.

00:08:05.180 So,

00:08:05.380 as you're

00:08:05.680 listening to

00:08:06.100 this podcast

00:08:06.820 and you're

00:08:07.860 somebody sort

00:08:08.460 of a bit

00:08:09.240 like my job,

00:08:10.080 right,

00:08:10.380 which is 100%

00:08:11.920 behind a computer

00:08:12.920 screen every

00:08:13.700 single day of

00:08:14.460 the week,

00:08:15.460 then you know

00:08:16.300 intuitively that

00:08:18.220 that's too much

00:08:19.100 sitting.

00:08:19.840 And I don't know

00:08:20.220 if you're aware

00:08:20.760 of this now,

00:08:21.520 if you look at

00:08:21.960 job postings,

00:08:23.180 they will even

00:08:23.900 put as a warning

00:08:24.900 on the job

00:08:25.480 posting,

00:08:25.960 this job

00:08:27.000 requires

00:08:27.660 excessive

00:08:28.500 sedentary

00:08:29.120 time,

00:08:29.980 right?

00:08:30.220 It's actually

00:08:30.800 extraordinary.

00:08:32.060 On the other

00:08:32.700 hand,

00:08:33.280 if you happen

00:08:34.140 to have a job,

00:08:35.240 whether that's

00:08:35.720 working in a

00:08:36.320 warehouse,

00:08:37.020 whether that's

00:08:37.440 working in a

00:08:37.940 bakery,

00:08:38.480 whether that's

00:08:38.880 working in

00:08:39.580 fields,

00:08:40.020 whether that's

00:08:40.700 sort of

00:08:41.000 something much

00:08:41.660 more ambulatory,

00:08:43.360 that could even

00:08:43.780 sort of be a

00:08:44.340 greeter at

00:08:45.560 Walmart,

00:08:46.180 if you like,

00:08:46.920 where you're

00:08:47.200 sort of mooching

00:08:47.760 around.

00:08:47.980 You can imagine

00:08:48.860 having a neat

00:08:49.960 five,

00:08:50.600 six,

00:08:50.800 700 calories

00:08:52.040 a day more

00:08:53.020 than the person

00:08:54.060 confined to a

00:08:54.860 sedentary job.

00:08:56.580 So there's been

00:08:56.860 a lot of talk

00:08:57.520 about rising

00:08:58.320 obesity rates

00:08:59.180 in the United

00:09:00.000 States,

00:09:00.440 and there's been

00:09:01.020 different arguments

00:09:01.600 put forth about

00:09:02.200 what the cause is.

00:09:03.040 It's people are

00:09:03.440 eating more,

00:09:04.260 people are eating

00:09:04.740 more sugary foods,

00:09:06.360 people are eating

00:09:07.080 more fatty foods,

00:09:08.860 and you highlight

00:09:09.760 research,

00:09:10.200 but oftentimes it

00:09:10.860 gets overlooked,

00:09:11.420 is that people

00:09:12.220 are just moving

00:09:12.920 less.

00:09:13.500 Do we know

00:09:15.440 how much less

00:09:16.780 we are experiencing

00:09:17.980 neat in America

00:09:19.040 today?

00:09:20.220 Yeah.

00:09:20.800 If you go back

00:09:22.100 sort of 200 years

00:09:23.200 to the Industrial

00:09:24.040 Revolution,

00:09:25.380 people move from

00:09:26.480 agricultural environments

00:09:27.600 into the cities,

00:09:28.780 you know,

00:09:29.560 and then what

00:09:30.240 happened,

00:09:30.680 of course,

00:09:31.000 is there were

00:09:31.560 production lines

00:09:32.460 in the big

00:09:32.920 factories,

00:09:33.400 and then what

00:09:34.420 happened,

00:09:34.860 what,

00:09:35.020 in the 1950s

00:09:36.020 or thereabouts,

00:09:36.920 people started

00:09:38.060 sitting down

00:09:38.820 working behind

00:09:39.720 desks,

00:09:40.240 and in fact,

00:09:41.240 office desks

00:09:42.120 were actually

00:09:43.000 designed,

00:09:44.340 including the

00:09:45.120 chair with the

00:09:45.820 wheels,

00:09:46.580 to stop people

00:09:47.520 getting up and

00:09:48.120 moving,

00:09:48.500 because the

00:09:49.200 ergonomists

00:09:49.980 back then

00:09:50.860 believed that

00:09:52.000 if you could

00:09:52.480 stop people

00:09:53.000 getting up and

00:09:53.680 walking,

00:09:54.420 they would

00:09:54.660 actually be

00:09:55.300 more productive

00:09:56.000 if they sat

00:09:56.660 behind their

00:09:57.240 desk all day

00:09:58.140 long.

00:09:58.680 They were

00:09:59.520 wrong.

00:10:00.900 But that is

00:10:02.480 exactly sort of

00:10:03.380 how things have

00:10:04.120 evolved to push

00:10:05.360 us down in our

00:10:06.080 chairs.

00:10:06.460 And are we

00:10:07.020 sitting too

00:10:07.700 long?

00:10:08.380 Oh my goodness,

00:10:10.300 yes we are.

00:10:11.420 How do I know

00:10:12.100 that?

00:10:12.860 Is it just because

00:10:13.800 of the rising

00:10:14.820 obesity rates that

00:10:15.820 you talk of,

00:10:16.340 and there are

00:10:16.660 really good data

00:10:17.840 to the effect

00:10:18.500 that we have

00:10:19.280 sat progressively

00:10:19.980 more and more

00:10:20.860 and more over

00:10:21.400 the last 200

00:10:22.060 years, but in

00:10:23.100 fact, our

00:10:24.180 calorie intake

00:10:24.960 has not

00:10:25.540 increased

00:10:26.000 substantially.

00:10:27.040 The only data

00:10:27.720 showing that it

00:10:28.400 has are actually

00:10:28.980 from Australia.

00:10:30.280 So yeah, our

00:10:30.920 calorie intake has

00:10:31.960 been constant,

00:10:32.720 but it's too

00:10:33.280 much for the

00:10:34.660 degree of

00:10:35.200 inactivity we

00:10:36.400 have.

00:10:37.080 And it's not

00:10:37.780 just about

00:10:38.840 obesity.

00:10:40.000 There are 27

00:10:41.020 other chronic

00:10:41.900 diseases and

00:10:42.620 conditions associated

00:10:43.900 with setting too

00:10:44.620 much.

00:10:45.260 And that means

00:10:45.640 things like

00:10:45.960 diabetes, high

00:10:46.960 blood pressure,

00:10:47.700 cardiovascular

00:10:48.140 disease, even

00:10:49.340 some types of

00:10:50.100 cancer, and of

00:10:50.940 course, musculoskeletal

00:10:52.840 problems.

00:10:53.940 And so, you know,

00:10:55.380 yes, on the other

00:10:56.300 hand, you may be

00:10:57.100 listening to this

00:10:57.700 podcast and smiling,

00:10:58.900 it's quite interesting,

00:11:00.260 but it's bigger than

00:11:01.140 that.

00:11:01.520 It's really serious

00:11:02.600 stuff.

00:11:03.600 And it's not just

00:11:04.340 our bodies we're

00:11:05.200 hurting, we've set up

00:11:06.280 a society whereby

00:11:07.900 our kids are going

00:11:09.380 to ultimately receive

00:11:11.320 the world we've

00:11:12.180 created for them.

00:11:14.340 Yeah, I think it's

00:11:14.820 interesting you point

00:11:15.320 out this lack of

00:11:16.320 physical activity on

00:11:18.320 a daily basis is

00:11:19.480 probably driving the

00:11:20.740 obesity, a big

00:11:21.900 factor in driving the

00:11:22.620 obesity.

00:11:23.000 Because you even

00:11:23.420 talk about, if you

00:11:24.660 even look at office

00:11:25.340 work, you talk about

00:11:25.900 this in one of your

00:11:26.260 books, if you look at

00:11:27.060 office work 50 years

00:11:28.560 ago compared to

00:11:29.160 today, you did a lot

00:11:30.660 more moving in the

00:11:31.660 office than today.

00:11:33.160 Like, you had to

00:11:33.640 move even if you were

00:11:34.520 just doing a desk

00:11:35.100 job.

00:11:36.380 I mean, this is, you

00:11:37.480 know, this is 100%

00:11:38.560 correct.

00:11:39.540 I mean, I think back

00:11:40.420 to sort of when I

00:11:41.160 started in the day,

00:11:41.920 I mean, I'll give you

00:11:42.680 a fantastic example.

00:11:43.900 My very first job was

00:11:46.420 working for a really

00:11:47.320 famous professor called

00:11:48.640 Professor Davies, who

00:11:50.260 is an osteoporosis

00:11:51.440 professor.

00:11:52.860 And of course, as you

00:11:53.780 may be aware, osteoporosis

00:11:55.120 is growing quicker and

00:11:56.220 quicker, partly due to

00:11:57.320 the lack of activity.

00:11:58.820 And she asked me to

00:12:00.040 gather papers about a

00:12:01.600 certain document she

00:12:03.340 was writing for the

00:12:04.280 World Health

00:12:04.740 Organization.

00:12:05.860 I said, I'd love to.

00:12:07.180 Now, those papers were

00:12:08.240 scientific articles.

00:12:09.380 And in order to gather

00:12:10.320 them, I kid you not, I

00:12:12.240 literally had to get on

00:12:13.380 my bicycle and cycle

00:12:15.100 across London to

00:12:16.280 probably one of 15

00:12:17.820 different libraries to

00:12:18.800 gather all the articles

00:12:19.820 she needed.

00:12:21.040 Yes, it took a lot of

00:12:21.940 time, but my goodness,

00:12:23.440 I'd come into her

00:12:24.160 office, sweat pouring

00:12:25.980 down my back.

00:12:27.780 Today, click, click,

00:12:31.260 click, click, click.

00:12:32.660 It's done.

00:12:34.040 And just taking that

00:12:34.980 simple example, all of

00:12:37.180 us listening who are of

00:12:39.360 a certain age, remember

00:12:41.020 how difficult things

00:12:42.820 used to be where we

00:12:43.760 used to have to go and

00:12:44.760 get resources.

00:12:45.560 We used to even have to

00:12:47.020 sort of walk to the

00:12:47.980 printer, which was

00:12:48.660 actually in the printing

00:12:49.640 room.

00:12:50.520 Yeah.

00:12:51.220 Now, we barely, we can

00:12:53.640 actually spend our entire

00:12:54.960 day, when you think

00:12:56.040 about it, in the office,

00:12:57.840 at work, and if I need

00:12:59.060 my lunch, click, click,

00:13:00.520 click, door dash right

00:13:02.000 to my desk.

00:13:03.100 And get home, drive

00:13:05.100 through, click, click,

00:13:06.280 click, pizza at my door,

00:13:08.480 and on we go.

00:13:09.300 And if you sort of

00:13:10.980 step back and actually

00:13:13.360 think about how much

00:13:15.240 time I spend sitting

00:13:18.100 every day, if you think

00:13:20.000 about it, what's really

00:13:21.840 interesting is you can't

00:13:23.040 really imagine a world

00:13:24.320 where you don't spend it

00:13:26.120 sitting because it's sort

00:13:27.720 of a subsidiary symptom of

00:13:33.060 how we actually live.

00:13:35.480 And so you don't sort of

00:13:36.260 analyze, oh, I'm sitting a

00:13:37.760 lot at the moment, you

00:13:38.560 just live your life, you

00:13:39.700 see.

00:13:40.000 And so this is what's

00:13:40.740 happened.

00:13:41.300 It sort of crept up on us.

00:13:43.100 And all of a sudden, we've

00:13:44.380 all become, you know,

00:13:45.800 these terribly sedentary and

00:13:47.280 rather unwell and sort of

00:13:49.040 slightly blue sedentary

00:13:51.260 office workers, both in the

00:13:53.160 office and at home.

00:13:53.980 when some people or I think

00:13:55.840 when most people notice

00:13:57.480 that I'm gaining some

00:13:58.200 weight, I notice that I

00:13:59.860 don't move around all that

00:14:00.820 much because I have an

00:14:01.440 office job that doesn't

00:14:03.220 allow me to move around

00:14:04.180 all that much.

00:14:05.140 They think, well, I can I

00:14:06.320 can take care of this with

00:14:07.200 just diet and exercise.

00:14:08.300 But you argue that diet and

00:14:10.200 exercise will never be

00:14:12.140 enough to compensate for the

00:14:13.880 lack of NEAT.

00:14:15.060 The problem with dieting,

00:14:16.880 just reducing calories, is

00:14:18.460 that you can't do that

00:14:19.960 forever, right?

00:14:20.840 So let's say you reduce

00:14:21.920 your calories and you do

00:14:22.860 lose weight because, you

00:14:24.480 know, you've reduced the

00:14:25.160 amount of calories you're

00:14:26.120 consuming.

00:14:26.680 But then in order to

00:14:27.740 continue the weight loss

00:14:29.360 with calorie reduction, you

00:14:31.300 have to decrease the

00:14:32.500 calories even more because

00:14:33.560 you've likely decreased

00:14:35.300 your metabolic, overall

00:14:36.480 metabolic rate, resting

00:14:37.560 metabolic rate because

00:14:38.280 you're smaller.

00:14:39.260 So your body requires

00:14:40.400 fewer calories.

00:14:41.860 And so it gets to a point

00:14:42.960 where it becomes

00:14:43.600 unsustainable.

00:14:45.040 And I think let me jump.

00:14:45.860 Yeah, let me jump in

00:14:46.660 there, if I may, please,

00:14:47.720 because you've touched on

00:14:48.560 a really interesting point.

00:14:50.020 Not only is everything

00:14:52.040 you just said correct, but

00:14:53.300 it's even sort of more

00:14:54.980 subtle than that, if I may

00:14:56.320 please.

00:14:57.200 When somebody loses weight

00:14:58.920 through caloric restriction,

00:15:00.640 through cutting their

00:15:01.320 calories down, yeah, body

00:15:03.240 fat is disseminated.

00:15:06.120 Somebody can also lose some

00:15:07.900 lean body mass and body

00:15:09.220 weight declines on a lower

00:15:10.660 calorie intake.

00:15:12.060 The trouble with this is the

00:15:13.760 body is not a static

00:15:15.380 system.

00:15:16.620 The body, brilliant in its

00:15:18.980 design, adjusts and actually

00:15:21.920 becomes more efficient.

00:15:23.980 So in fact, once you're at

00:15:25.640 that lower caloric intake, the

00:15:27.460 body is working more

00:15:28.420 efficiently, making it

00:15:29.520 actually more difficult to

00:15:31.320 lose more weight.

00:15:32.780 So you're not even dealing

00:15:34.340 with a sort of a simple

00:15:35.660 mathematic is I've decreased

00:15:37.320 my calories in.

00:15:39.120 I'm now going to be able to

00:15:40.820 maintain a lower body weight

00:15:42.040 easier.

00:15:42.820 That actually isn't true

00:15:44.260 because the body will sort of

00:15:45.920 counter-regulate to make it

00:15:48.100 more difficult to maintain

00:15:49.340 your body weight.

00:15:50.800 And then also exercise, you

00:15:52.280 know, just relying on focused

00:15:54.200 exercise activities to offset

00:15:57.100 the amount of being sedentary.

00:15:59.180 As you said earlier, it's not

00:16:00.920 going to do much in the long

00:16:01.840 run because you might just

00:16:02.480 burn 100, 200, 300 calories

00:16:04.780 and that can't make up for being

00:16:06.260 sedentary every other hour you're

00:16:08.760 awake.

00:16:09.800 I mean, purposeful exercise for the

00:16:12.260 sake of improving your health, like

00:16:13.440 going to the gym or something

00:16:14.880 like that, is fantastic if you

00:16:18.380 like to do it.

00:16:19.100 Let's be clear about that.

00:16:20.460 If you like to go to the gym,

00:16:22.680 keep doing it, please.

00:16:24.240 It's really good for you.

00:16:25.420 It's really good for your health.

00:16:27.020 But very interestingly, again,

00:16:29.560 for even people who go to the

00:16:31.320 gym, the harm associated with

00:16:34.040 sedentariness, as you say, all

00:16:36.780 the other time that you're not at

00:16:38.680 the gym, which is basically sort

00:16:40.560 of 95% of your week, the harm

00:16:43.940 of sedentariness is still not

00:16:46.740 eliminated.

00:16:48.320 So if you go to the gym, great.

00:16:50.600 But if you're sedentary, you're

00:16:51.740 sedentary.

00:16:52.400 And if you're sedentary, it's

00:16:53.440 causing you harm.

00:16:54.920 I feel like in the last decade or

00:16:56.360 so, people, you know, whether

00:16:58.080 you're talking about dedicated

00:16:59.240 exercise or, you know, just

00:17:01.380 physical activity in general,

00:17:03.660 people have been kind of down on

00:17:06.060 physical activity as a method of

00:17:07.900 weight management.

00:17:09.400 You know, there's this idea out

00:17:10.340 there that you can't exercise your

00:17:11.720 way or burn your way to weight

00:17:13.080 loss.

00:17:13.820 You know, diet is what really

00:17:14.900 matters.

00:17:15.820 You know, if you move more at

00:17:17.480 sometimes, you're just going to

00:17:18.660 slow down.

00:17:19.300 At other times, you know, your

00:17:20.520 body's going to find ways to 0.94

00:17:21.860 just compensate for that extra

00:17:23.680 activity somehow.

00:17:24.880 But you did a study that proved,

00:17:27.560 yes, activity can keep the pounds

00:17:30.060 off.

00:17:30.660 It was this really complex study.

00:17:32.440 You basically got a bunch of

00:17:34.100 people, including yourself, and

00:17:36.620 then you overfed them a thousand

00:17:38.200 calories a day.

00:17:39.060 And then you just watched what

00:17:40.740 happened, you know, who gained

00:17:42.260 weight and who lost weight.

00:17:44.000 So walk us through that study.

00:17:45.440 And what did you learn from this

00:17:47.580 study?

00:17:48.560 Yeah, Brett, it was

00:17:49.700 extraordinary.

00:17:50.540 It was called the Great Overfeeding

00:17:52.900 Experiment.

00:17:54.380 And that is exactly what we did.

00:17:56.240 But I have to tell you, this

00:17:57.980 wasn't done, you know, using a

00:18:00.800 computer watch or guessing.

00:18:04.360 I mean, this was done meticulously in

00:18:06.520 metabolic laboratories at Mayo Clinic.

00:18:08.480 It was a big, big deal.

00:18:10.360 Every single food item was weighed and

00:18:13.420 measured chemically.

00:18:15.140 Every single movement was captured.

00:18:17.160 Every calorie burned was analyzed.

00:18:20.040 And even how people changed their body

00:18:21.920 fat was measured using precise,

00:18:24.820 precise technology down to a few

00:18:26.780 hundred grams.

00:18:27.960 I mean, it was extraordinary work.

00:18:30.020 A huge team of people helped do it.

00:18:32.600 And what we found were two things that I

00:18:34.500 think are really important.

00:18:35.700 You can take a group of people, none

00:18:38.560 of whom have obesity, and you can

00:18:40.780 expose all of them to a thousand

00:18:42.920 calories a day of overfeeding for

00:18:45.780 months on end, okay?

00:18:47.740 And the extraordinary thing, first of

00:18:49.920 all, is this.

00:18:51.760 One person can take nearly all of those

00:18:55.460 extra thousand calories and deposit it

00:18:58.560 in body fat.

00:18:59.340 That person is super prone, almost like

00:19:03.720 a sponge absorbing water, to developing

00:19:06.880 excess body fat.

00:19:08.840 On the other hand, another person can

00:19:12.000 receive the same amount of excess food

00:19:14.740 and somehow magically through their brain

00:19:18.360 get up and start spontaneously moving.

00:19:21.900 Their meat can increase for an extra thousand

00:19:24.880 calories they've received.

00:19:26.180 Their meat can increase 700 extra calories a

00:19:30.780 day through movement.

00:19:31.760 Not going to the gym, through movement.

00:19:33.380 700 calories extra a day.

00:19:36.620 On one hand, you've got somebody who seems

00:19:38.480 to absorb every extra gram of food and

00:19:42.320 deposit it in their body fat.

00:19:44.840 On the other hand, you've got somebody who

00:19:47.500 you can overfeed a thousand calories a day

00:19:50.640 and gains almost no body fat because they

00:19:53.080 switch on their meat.

00:19:54.140 They get up and they move.

00:19:56.240 So what you realize is, first of all, some

00:19:58.960 people are really predisposed to gaining

00:20:01.360 obesity.

00:20:02.360 Yeah, we all know that.

00:20:03.780 And I'm sure some of your people listening

00:20:05.680 are nodding their heads right now.

00:20:08.080 But other people have this capacity from

00:20:11.240 inside of the brain to get up and move so

00:20:14.220 much more that they don't gain any weight

00:20:16.680 with overfeeding.

00:20:18.600 And they never went to a gym.

00:20:20.700 So that's the first thing.

00:20:22.500 Now, what's the second thing?

00:20:24.340 The second thing is probably even more

00:20:27.220 important than that.

00:20:28.460 The second thing is, if you are one of those

00:20:33.120 people nodding your head right now, if you're

00:20:36.500 one of those individuals who has a tremendous

00:20:39.740 susceptibility to gaining excess body weight, as

00:20:42.740 soon as you sniff extra food, what you realize is

00:20:47.540 that the body is designed in such a way that you can

00:20:51.580 not gain more body weight, you cannot gain excess body

00:20:57.960 weight and develop obesity if you are up and you are

00:21:01.300 moving and your body has the capacity to do this, and you

00:21:04.720 can even burn up to, if you like, 700 calories a day extra

00:21:09.220 based on those data.

00:21:10.440 So, it's a beautiful idea.

00:21:14.660 You can win.

00:21:15.680 You don't need to go to the gym.

00:21:17.740 You can get up and move hundreds of extra calories a day, whether

00:21:21.740 that's converting a standard meeting at work to a walk and talk

00:21:25.320 meeting, whether that's converting shopping online to actually

00:21:28.740 shopping by foot, whether that's getting your groceries delivered

00:21:32.580 to your door from the supermarket or actually going to the

00:21:35.840 supermarket and physically choosing it.

00:21:38.020 You can integrate movement into your day, so much so to stave off

00:21:43.420 excess body weight, and you can even burn up to an extra 700

00:21:47.260 calories a day doing it.

00:21:49.680 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our

00:21:51.380 sponsors.

00:21:54.260 And now back to the show.

00:21:56.080 Did you all figure out, like, what causes some people to have that

00:21:59.340 natural tendency to, when they consume more calories, they just

00:22:02.460 start moving more naturally and others don't do that?

00:22:05.920 Is there a gene?

00:22:06.780 Yeah, we spent a lot of time on that.

00:22:09.960 And again, what's fascinating is this.

00:22:12.560 Think about it for a second.

00:22:14.300 So, what we did in that experiment is we got completely sort of

00:22:17.880 healthy, normal volunteers, and we overfed them.

00:22:20.540 We checked that they took every single extra calorie that they 0.93

00:22:23.840 were given.

00:22:25.200 We measured that.

00:22:26.140 We even measured their urine in their stool, I should tell you.

00:22:29.240 We had freezers full of poo.

00:22:30.600 And what we then measured was that people responded to that by

00:22:35.700 increasing their NEAT, their movement throughout their day.

00:22:39.380 If you think about it for a second, how did people know to do that?

00:22:43.860 It had never been discovered before.

00:22:45.940 I mean, how did that happen?

00:22:47.200 How did people, if you like, knew to do it subconsciously?

00:22:52.060 Because there's a mechanism in the brain that counter-regulates how our food

00:23:00.580 relates to our activity.

00:23:03.160 And we thought, wow, we've got to go and try and find that area in the brain

00:23:07.240 because then we can actually help people really achieve their goals.

00:23:10.640 And so, we had a whole neuroscience team led by Dr. Novak, a brilliant young

00:23:16.620 neuroscientist, and she identified tiny parts of the brain right in the hypothalamus,

00:23:24.160 which is an old part of the brain, that switches on your NEAT and switches on NEAT

00:23:29.220 more in some people than others.

00:23:31.360 So, in fact, right at the center of your brain, right now as you're listening to

00:23:36.840 this podcast, your brain is analyzing your calories in, your calories out, and is

00:23:41.960 propelling you to move more or move less.

00:23:45.400 So, yes, there's a deep biology underpinning this.

00:23:49.480 Okay, so in some people, there's a part of the brain that's more discerning or more

00:23:54.140 activated so that whenever you take in excess calories, it sends a signal to move

00:23:59.300 more.

00:24:00.240 And then in some people, that part doesn't switch on as strongly.

00:24:03.640 But a big point you make in all of your books you've written is that

00:24:06.420 even if you don't have that natural tendency to want to move more whenever you

00:24:10.780 consume excess calories, you're not destined to be an inert lump.

00:24:15.880 You can still take action.

00:24:17.140 It doesn't have to be a big change.

00:24:19.400 Just take small, tiny changes throughout the day to counteract that.

00:24:23.780 Absolutely.

00:24:24.700 And the trick, if you like, I actually, as somebody who looks after patients, I really

00:24:30.780 don't like tricks.

00:24:31.780 But nonetheless, for you, Brett, the trick.

00:24:34.020 The trick to all of this is to make a decision, is to make a decision with your day, today.

00:24:42.220 Is today going to be the day I'm going to get up and take control of my life and step

00:24:49.120 forwards?

00:24:50.260 Or is today going to be the day I stay on my seat?

00:24:55.120 If you decide to stay on your seat, my only prayer is that tomorrow you think the same

00:25:03.860 question of yourself.

00:25:05.580 On the other hand, if today is the day right now that you are going to get up, take control

00:25:11.280 and take a step forward, the moment you do that, you will do it tomorrow and you'll do

00:25:16.400 it the next day.

00:25:17.020 And the data suggests that if you can find those moments throughout your day to consistently

00:25:22.160 be up and moving, and you do it for 21 days approximately, it will become a habit.

00:25:29.660 Just like sitting down in the evening, every evening, and binge watching is a habit, you

00:25:35.820 can actually have really cool and healthy motivational movement habits as well.

00:25:42.300 So if you can find those moments to get up and move throughout your day and keep doing

00:25:46.540 it, it will become a habit.

00:25:48.560 It'll become part of your life.

00:25:50.620 And here's what the data from, we've worked in over 70 US corporations, here's what the

00:25:56.220 data from corporations show.

00:25:58.140 It's really great stuff.

00:26:00.260 Is once you've taken on one good habit and done it for 21 days, we call it the neat ripple

00:26:05.660 effect.

00:26:06.260 Is a good movement habit will beget, will make another movement habit.

00:26:14.000 And so one becomes two and all of a sudden two becomes four.

00:26:17.680 And what happens is people who are sitters become people who are movers and people who

00:26:23.220 become movers also influence their families, their kids, husbands and wives and friends to

00:26:30.360 become movers as well.

00:26:31.500 And so there's a neat ripple, but the trick, the trick, the trick is to think right now today

00:26:38.660 is today.

00:26:39.920 I'm going to get up and take control of my life and take that first step forwards or not.

00:26:44.780 And if the answer is yes, do it now.

00:26:47.020 In other words, Brett, what I'm saying is if you can get it into your mindset, into your

00:26:52.560 thinking that I'm going to fight the chair, I'm going to win this battle.

00:26:57.580 You can actually do it.

00:26:58.760 And what's great, you offer suggestions on how you can do that.

00:27:01.800 I think the trick is understanding, okay, our social environment is pushing us to be

00:27:06.580 sedentary.

00:27:07.180 Everything is like you do everything sitting down.

00:27:10.160 And I think one trick is just, can I do this typically sedentary activity?

00:27:15.040 Can I do it while moving somehow?

00:27:17.140 So you offer suggestions like, if you like to watch TV, get yourself a really cheap treadmill.

00:27:22.540 You can find them on Amazon for 300 bucks now.

00:27:25.200 Like they're so cheap and then just stick that in your television room.

00:27:29.120 And while you're watching your favorite show, just walk at 1.1 miles per hour on that treadmill.

00:27:34.440 Or if you like playing video games, do the same thing.

00:27:36.280 You can play a video game while you're walking.

00:27:38.760 Or like you said, if you take phone calls during work, don't do that sitting down.

00:27:42.860 Do that while you're walking.

00:27:43.660 You are 100% correct.

00:27:46.400 And I'm telling you, what's really cool about this is the other thing I mentioned is once

00:27:51.140 you've, and I will tell you now, 300 bucks for a treadmill in your house, that's expensive

00:27:56.580 these days.

00:27:57.440 I mean, they're coming in at $100 now, or you can get a secondhand one, or you can get,

00:28:02.340 people are throwing away their exercise bicycles.

00:28:05.160 I mean, take it, refurbish it, put it in your TV room.

00:28:08.240 And you'd be surprised that you can binge watch, I'm actually starting to re-watch Seinfeld

00:28:14.040 again, I hate to tell you this, but I can binge watch Seinfeld gently cycling on my stationary

00:28:19.800 bicycle.

00:28:20.660 It makes almost no noise, and I'm getting just as much TV.

00:28:24.740 And there is so much we can do if we put our mind to it.

00:28:28.080 And the other thing, Brett, you mentioned is we sort of, sort of society has put us in

00:28:33.780 our chair.

00:28:34.300 But the other thing to think about for a second is how we can change the society.

00:28:39.980 Now, I don't mean changing the world, let's be serious, but how can I change the society

00:28:45.840 I live in?

00:28:47.820 So, next time, if I'm dating, next time I choose a date on, I can't remember the name

00:28:52.980 of the website, whatever, where you're swiping left and swiping right, I'm actually going

00:28:57.240 to choose a date for somebody who also likes to go walking.

00:28:59.740 I'm going to sort of say, next time we all sit to come for my birthday, and for those

00:29:04.680 of you listening, my birthday is November the 20th, next, or for all of you who are going

00:29:09.120 to come to my birthday party, yeah, we're going to have cake.

00:29:12.660 You bet we are.

00:29:14.400 But also, once we've done our cake, we're also all going to go out for a walk together.

00:29:18.380 We're going to do a family walk.

00:29:20.620 Right?

00:29:20.980 So, we actually have the opportunity to influence the micro-society we live in, but we need to

00:29:27.440 choose to do that, and it's all part of the same thing.

00:29:30.380 Make that decision, take your first step, and the rest is going to flow from there.

00:29:36.180 And one thing you point out in your book is that you work with a lot of patients who have

00:29:40.280 had extra weight, and just by simply increasing the amount of NEAT in their lives, they've been

00:29:45.840 able to lose weight, like a lot of weight.

00:29:47.800 They don't even become serious gym-goers, they're just moving more during the day.

00:29:51.960 A hundred percent.

00:29:53.260 And so, yes, and if you like, there is the world of what I call testimonies, and this

00:29:59.580 is fine, and I'm a hundred percent respectful.

00:30:04.300 But as somebody with a science background, I'm actually more interested in the hardcore

00:30:09.260 data from the scientific studies.

00:30:11.500 And the scientific studies conducted in normal U.S. office workers show that even in people

00:30:19.580 who don't want to lose weight, they will tend to lose weight and become more active.

00:30:23.660 But in people who want to lose weight, people will start, if they activate their lives, they

00:30:28.720 take on NEAT, are going to be losing 10 to 20 pounds slowly and gently, if you like, without

00:30:34.900 breaking a sweat, right?

00:30:36.400 And they're going to do that over six months, and then over the six months, the same.

00:30:41.300 And so, what's really powerful about this is, yes, 60% of the population may be dieting

00:30:46.360 in any given year, but what's really cool about NEAT is NEAT is going to help you keep

00:30:51.540 off that excess body weight, and it's going to nudge you forwards and forwards and forwards.

00:30:55.960 And what's important about this is you're not going to get a sports injury from NEAT.

00:31:00.200 You're not going to have to pay a gym membership for NEAT.

00:31:04.720 Everyone can get up and move throughout their day without paying a penny for doing it.

00:31:10.500 And what it's going to help with, for those people who want to lose weight, you don't

00:31:14.480 have to lose weight, even if you have excess body weight, you're not obliged to, right?

00:31:19.000 If you want to, this will help.

00:31:23.240 So, we've been talking about the benefits of NEAT and weight loss, but you mentioned

00:31:26.100 earlier there's other benefits to moving more throughout the day.

00:31:29.280 How can NEAT improve metabolic health?

00:31:31.900 We're talking like how we regulate glucose.

00:31:35.180 Oh, this is really, I hope we have enough time for this, Brett, but let me explain briefly.

00:31:40.820 This is super cool.

00:31:43.060 Experiments were done where healthy volunteers came onto a research center, very, very carefully

00:31:48.800 monitored, and their glucose from their blood was being monitored every 30 seconds.

00:31:53.480 These individuals were given breakfast, lunch, and dinner in the metabolic unit in the research

00:32:01.480 center, and then were instructed to get on with their normal day.

00:32:05.640 And that was, you know, computer work for the morning, then lunch, computer work, and a bit

00:32:10.380 of Facebook, and then dinner, and then evening time, Facebook, binge watching, and TV, okay?

00:32:15.520 And we measured their blood glucose every 30 seconds continuously throughout the day.

00:32:21.800 And what actually happens is when you have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, your blood glucose

00:32:26.500 climbs to a mountain and then slowly descends over a total period of about an hour and a

00:32:33.240 half.

00:32:33.640 After each of the three meals, that's what happens.

00:32:36.660 Then we said to people, we want you to do exactly the same day again.

00:32:41.540 We'll measure your glucose again.

00:32:44.040 We'll give you the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner again.

00:32:47.120 But we want you to do one single thing different.

00:32:53.140 After every meal, we want you to take a 15-minute walk or stroll at one and a half miles an hour.

00:33:01.140 That's literally strolling 15 minutes after every meal.

00:33:05.380 Now, as I mentioned, without the stroll, normal day, you have breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

00:33:13.900 Your blood sugar, your blood glucose climbs to a mountain, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

00:33:19.220 If you add a 15-minute stroll, that's it.

00:33:23.340 The mountain becomes a hill.

00:33:26.180 It literally halves the size of that blood glucose mountain.

00:33:31.040 15-minute stroll after each of your meals.

00:33:33.900 The biggest predictor of type 2 diabetes is the size of those mountains.

00:33:41.360 So all of a sudden, for taking a 15-minute stroll after each of your meals, everyone listening

00:33:48.720 can do this.

00:33:50.460 You halve your blood glucose response to meals and potentially risk of type 2 diabetes.

00:33:58.700 What a win, win, win.

00:34:02.300 No, that is really powerful.

00:34:04.600 Another thing you talk about is the benefit of NEAT to our mental health.

00:34:08.160 I know a lot of people out there are struggling with their mental health.

00:34:10.720 What effect can NEAT have on that?

00:34:13.700 There has not been one clinical trial in depression prevention that includes a walking program that

00:34:24.100 hasn't helped people.

00:34:26.160 Many of us are susceptible to feeling blue.

00:34:30.280 I am.

00:34:31.240 Feeling low.

00:34:32.560 Feeling bad.

00:34:33.960 Most people listening will know that when you're feeling bad and you go for a walk,

00:34:39.400 for a reason you quite can't understand, you actually feel a little bit better.

00:34:44.800 What's really powerful are the data that show that if you actually sort of take on NEAT walking

00:34:52.760 as part of your routine, that will actually help you feel brighter, smarter, and sort of

00:35:01.060 more alive.

00:35:03.020 All of us already sort of know this, right?

00:35:05.800 We all know this.

00:35:07.100 When you're down, somebody says, let's go for a walk, and you feel better.

00:35:11.680 This is actually a truth.

00:35:14.380 And so for those of us who can take on a NEAT approach to life, not only is your sort of

00:35:20.400 body going to be better, whether that's with respect to obesity prevention or diabetes,

00:35:26.240 blood pressure, whatever it may be, but actually you're going to feel brighter too.

00:35:30.640 And what's really cool is once you feel brighter and happier, doing a little bit of walking,

00:35:37.880 even after each of your meals, guess what?

00:35:40.420 You're going to keep doing it and you're going to take on more stuff so you can feel even

00:35:44.100 brighter and happier.

00:35:45.900 And again, that's what the data suggests.

00:35:48.900 And another thing you've seen in your research and working with patients is that a lot of these

00:35:52.780 patients that come to see you, they talk about, I'm just so tired all the time.

00:35:56.060 And it seems weird because like, you know, you're just sitting around all day.

00:35:58.600 Why would you be tired?

00:35:59.300 But I think everyone has experienced how doing absolutely nothing can just be exhausting.

00:36:06.340 And by incorporating some more light physical activity during your day, it'll actually give

00:36:10.820 you the physical energy you need to do the things you want to do in life.

00:36:14.980 I mean, I think we all again know this to be a common truth, but Brett, that allows me to

00:36:19.340 touch on one other thing, which is so important.

00:36:22.400 And this will not shock anybody.

00:36:25.260 Sleep.

00:36:25.740 Sleep is a critical component of this equation.

00:36:30.900 It is absolutely critical.

00:36:33.460 And the data on NEAT and sleep are fascinating.

00:36:38.160 We brought people again onto our amazing research centers at Mayo Clinic.

00:36:42.640 These are extraordinary places where people volunteer to do studies to help us understand

00:36:48.960 what's going on.

00:36:49.840 And we brought them onto the research center and we said, have a good night's sleep in

00:36:55.120 your normal way.

00:36:55.680 Get used to our facilities.

00:36:57.080 And people did.

00:36:58.200 What we then did is we sleep restricted people.

00:37:01.780 We said to people, you're going to sleep 30% less.

00:37:04.220 We're going to wake you up.

00:37:05.100 We're going to twiddle your toes.

00:37:06.320 We're going to keep you awake.

00:37:07.700 And my goodness, yes, you're going to get tired.

00:37:09.680 And that's exactly what happened.

00:37:11.460 But here is what the data show.

00:37:13.620 The data shows when you sleep restrict people, they eat more.

00:37:18.860 We all know this, right?

00:37:20.120 When you're tired, this is me, by the way.

00:37:23.060 Okay.

00:37:23.300 This is me.

00:37:24.080 When I'm tired, I eat more.

00:37:25.620 This is always the case, right?

00:37:27.320 For some reason, you reach for the chalk.

00:37:29.420 You reach for the chips, whatever it may be.

00:37:31.740 But you eat more.

00:37:32.540 This is what happens when you sleep deprived.

00:37:35.380 You're feeling tired.

00:37:36.560 You're feeling pooped out.

00:37:37.600 You're noshing, you're eating a few snacks here and there.

00:37:40.460 But the one thing when you're tired you don't want to do is to get up and go for a walk.

00:37:46.280 When you're fully rested and you've got good sleep, you get up and you feel, what's the word we all use?

00:37:53.760 Energized.

00:37:54.520 That's what we feel.

00:37:56.300 And that energized means get up and go for a walk.

00:38:00.380 Get up and do some cool stuff.

00:38:01.700 Let's do something fun today.

00:38:03.300 And guess what?

00:38:04.080 You think less about that food you're going to lean on.

00:38:07.600 To deal with your tiredness.

00:38:09.740 So I fully understand that people may have two or sometimes three jobs.

00:38:15.160 I totally get it.

00:38:17.060 I totally do understand that there is tremendous stress at the moment and tremendous mental anguish.

00:38:24.040 But if you can find a good method to get good sleep, whether that involves, for example, stopping your coffee at noon or starting to relax early in the evening so you're ready for sleep, not stressing yourself out with text messages or arguments before you go to bed, whatever it may be.

00:38:41.360 If you can find a method of getting good sleep, that is a critically important part of the NEAT equation.

00:38:49.500 Well, I also think moving more can help you sleep better.

00:38:53.200 I've noticed in my own life, there's this idea I've heard about sleep pressure.

00:38:56.920 You have to build up some sleep pressure so your body wants to go to sleep.

00:39:00.480 And one way you can do that is just moving more.

00:39:03.540 I've had the best nights of sleep when I've had a really active day.

00:39:08.340 I think the best night of sleep, I've been chasing this night of sleep for 20 years now is when my wife and I went to Rome and you just walked.

00:39:15.780 There's like all day, you're just walking hours on hours.

00:39:18.740 And I remember we came back to our hotel and we just laid down and we just both fell asleep.

00:39:24.760 We didn't wake up until like 14 hours later.

00:39:27.400 And we both felt that was the best night's sleep.

00:39:30.580 And I think it's because we just walked so much.

00:39:32.720 And I noticed in the times where I don't move a lot during the day, I have a hard time falling asleep.

00:39:38.100 This is 100% correct.

00:39:39.880 Your body, if you remember earlier, Brett, we were talking about the parts of your brain that are sort of monitoring all of this.

00:39:46.880 I mean, one question you've got to ask yourself is, okay, I've now got my movement going.

00:39:52.320 Just as you say, you've walked around Rome all day.

00:39:54.560 I, you know, you sort of met your neat goal set by your brain.

00:39:59.520 What happens if you don't?

00:40:01.840 And I think a lot of people actually understand this, but haven't necessarily thought about it the way you put it.

00:40:08.240 So if I am sort of forced to sit on in meetings all day long, and I assure you that's often many of my days, you get home sort of feeling this sort of anxiety, right?

00:40:21.100 This sort of tightness inside of you.

00:40:22.980 And I don't know about you, but I get this thing sort of like my thoughts and I get frustrated and irritated much more than if I'd actually had an active day where I dissipated all of my energy.

00:40:36.340 And I think the other thing that, again, many people relate to, when you've come back from work and it's been a day that you've been in your chair, you haven't been up moving and so on and so forth, what's one thing you do?

00:40:47.080 You reach for a beer.

00:40:49.280 Really, what that's saying is, I need an anesthetic, right?

00:40:53.860 There's too much pressure in my head.

00:40:56.100 I need to anesthetize myself.

00:40:58.680 And so, therefore, the complexity of getting a good night's sleep absolutely relates to the need to burn off the energy that our body needs us to burn off.

00:41:10.340 We're designed to get up and move.

00:41:12.400 If you suppress the human, the human doesn't do well.

00:41:16.580 We get really, really internally upset by that, and we need to move.

00:41:22.240 So, part of our argument is that by forcing people to be seated all day, it's fundamentally unnatural to people.

00:41:30.240 And they need to move just to function normally.

00:41:34.300 And your day in Rome is illustrative of that.

00:41:37.220 So, we talked about some ways people can incorporate more NEAT into their lives.

00:41:41.480 If there's an activity that you do sitting down, see if you can do that standing up or even walking.

00:41:47.400 For people who want to incorporate more NEAT in their life, is there a goal they should shoot for?

00:41:51.360 Like, what's the minimum dose of NEAT that we need to get before we start seeing that benefit?

00:41:56.920 Is it an hour of extra NEAT, two hours?

00:41:59.400 Is there steps?

00:42:00.560 Like, what have you found in your research?

00:42:02.700 Yeah, I mean, this is a terrific question.

00:42:05.060 There has been a huge vogue, as many people know, to buy various gadgets, to look at various watches, and sort of monitor stuff.

00:42:15.700 Now, if you're somebody who loves monitoring stuff, go for it.

00:42:20.860 Enjoy it.

00:42:22.160 That's great.

00:42:23.420 But what is actually the truth?

00:42:25.380 And again, when you study this in sort of normal folk, what you find is if you give people a monitoring device,

00:42:32.380 they'll use it for a short period of time, and it can be literally, I kid you not, days,

00:42:38.480 and their use of that monitoring device will fall off almost exponentially,

00:42:42.940 almost sort of like over a cliff face, and they'll sort of put it into a drawer.

00:42:46.800 And how many people listening today have exercise monitoring devices, wearable little things,

00:42:53.860 that are in their drawer, that's powered down, that's unused?

00:42:57.520 So, my advice to people is to actually look at it completely differently.

00:43:03.480 If you love monitoring stuff, you know, get the equipment, it's great.

00:43:06.980 If you're going to take on for yourself a goal, I suggest you take on one goal, not 100 goals, one thing.

00:43:14.020 What's the one thing you're going to do for the next few weeks?

00:43:17.000 And let's say, for the sake of argument, is every Thursday, and this is as simple as it gets,

00:43:23.640 every Thursday I have to do a conference call with central corporate where they talk about, you know, health and wellness,

00:43:30.500 whatever it is, right, it's a 40-minute call every single week.

00:43:33.640 I only have to listen to fulfill my obligations, so I'm going to do that walk and talk.

00:43:39.480 That's one thing I'm going to do every Thursday.

00:43:42.000 Super simple.

00:43:42.680 Actually, what I'm going to do is I'm going to have a little chart on my fridge,

00:43:47.240 and every time I do it, I'm going to put a checkmark against it until I've done it 21 times.

00:43:52.540 Monitoring, as simple as it gets.

00:43:54.580 On the other hand, I'm going to be a different person.

00:43:57.380 I'm going to say, you know what?

00:43:59.120 My daughter loves the art stuff, and I live in Washington, D.C.,

00:44:04.500 where all the galleries are free at Smithsonian.

00:44:07.140 So, once a week, I'm going to go with my daughter, and we're going to stroll through the art gallery.

00:44:14.100 And we're going to do that together for two months.

00:44:17.920 Now, honestly, do you need to put that on your fridge to remind yourself to go for a walk with your daughter in the art gallery?

00:44:25.360 No.

00:44:25.880 What you want to do is to do it for three weeks, and it becomes a habit between you and your daughter.

00:44:30.260 And so, what I suggest, again, is be smart.

00:44:36.040 What works for you?

00:44:37.920 But pick something, find a way of monitoring it, and do it.

00:44:42.920 And the last concept I'd like to share with you in this regard is the idea of rewards.

00:44:49.200 Now, rewards are great, okay?

00:44:51.820 They're really, really cool.

00:44:53.960 But again, you have to be smart.

00:44:55.620 So, giving yourself a reward to go to the mailbox and collecting your mail on foot every day, to me, honestly, sounds a bit silly, right?

00:45:04.940 I'm not going to reward myself for collecting the mail, right?

00:45:08.380 However, if my goal is to walk a half marathon, and I had this amazing patient who did this.

00:45:14.640 She came into clinic in her wheelchair, and she sent me a photograph of her and the grandchildren when they walked a half marathon.

00:45:21.760 I kid you not.

00:45:22.700 It was like it blew my mind.

00:45:24.540 Her reward was if she could walk a half marathon, she'd saved up enough money to go to South Dakota for a week, okay?

00:45:32.220 That was her reward, and that was her goal.

00:45:34.660 And she actually said to me, actually, the reward was to do it.

00:45:38.460 So, I think if you can think of the idea of finding things that you want to do, finding a method to record it, and then finding a method to recognize yourself, pat yourself on the back, or have some sort of achievement recognition, you're off to the races.

00:45:55.980 I love it.

00:45:57.400 So, just find ways to move more.

00:45:58.700 That's it.

00:45:59.040 Again, it's not hard.

00:46:00.540 It doesn't have to be that hard.

00:46:01.660 It could be as simple as standing up at work occasionally.

00:46:05.100 It could be doing the walk and talk.

00:46:06.720 Something that I've done after reading your book, or we've done this for a long time as a family.

00:46:10.180 When we park somewhere, we park the furthest away so we can walk there, take the stairs.

00:46:15.500 It kind of becomes a game.

00:46:16.320 And finding ways that you can move more in an environment that is fighting for you to sit more.

00:46:22.520 It's kind of fun to be a rebel.

00:46:24.140 I'm going to move more instead.

00:46:26.580 Yeah, be a rebel for yourself.

00:46:28.720 Do it.

00:46:29.280 Get up and move.

00:46:30.640 Well, James, this has been a great conversation.

00:46:32.280 Where can people go to learn more about your work?

00:46:34.620 Well, I mean, it's fantastic if people wish to go to the library and get the book Get Up.

00:46:39.660 It really summarizes the work we did in the lab.

00:46:42.300 It's, of course, available on our favorite online website as well.

00:46:46.960 And that's great.

00:46:47.820 But also, I mean, places like mayoclinic.com have really high quality information on the internet.

00:46:54.720 And so please, please make a decision to get up and move today and learn more from these various resources and make it happen for yourself.

00:47:03.380 Fantastic.

00:47:03.640 Well, James Levine, thanks for your time.

00:47:04.740 It's been a pleasure.

00:47:06.020 It's my pleasure as well.

00:47:07.120 Thank you so much, Brett.

00:47:08.080 I really enjoyed it.

00:47:10.020 My guest today was Dr. James Levine.

00:47:11.700 He's the author of the book Get Up, Why Your Chair Is Killing You and What You Can Do About It.

00:47:15.560 Check out our show notes at aom.is slash neat, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:47:21.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:47:31.520 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com.

00:47:34.180 And while you're there, sign up for our newsletter.

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00:47:55.540 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:47:57.240 Remind you to listen to AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:48:00.860 AOM Podcast is a production of AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - January 03, 2024

The Power of NEAT — Move a Little to Lose a Lot

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