The Art of Manliness - January 03, 2024


The Power of NEAT — Move a Little to Lose a Lot


Episode Stats

Length

48 minutes

Words per Minute

172.73364

Word Count

8,380

Sentence Count

484

Misogynist Sentences

5


Summary

Do you have a goal to lose weight? If so, you re probably thinking about how you need to exercise more, and that can certainly help. But what about the 23 hours a day you re not at the gym? How much you move during those hours, from walking to the mailbox to fidgeting at your desk, can be just as important in winning the battle of the bulge. In this episode, Dr. James Levine explains how much more sedentary you are than we used to be, and what happens to your body when you spend half the day sitting. He shares how doing the lightest kinds of physical activity, even standing more, can help you lose a significant amount of weight and improve other aspects of your health.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett.
00:00:00.680 We're taking a break for new episodes this week.
00:00:02.260 So we're going to rebroadcast episode number 955,
00:00:05.420 The Power of Neat, Move a Little to Lose a Lot.
00:00:08.060 This is with Dr. James Levine.
00:00:09.280 It's all about non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
00:00:12.540 Hope you enjoy it.
00:00:13.280 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
00:00:23.240 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition
00:00:25.200 of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:27.460 Do you have a goal to lose weight?
00:00:28.900 If so, you're probably thinking about
00:00:30.960 how you need to exercise more,
00:00:32.600 and that can certainly help.
00:00:34.200 But what about the 23 hours a day you're not at the gym?
00:00:37.220 How much you move during those hours,
00:00:38.880 from walking to the mailbox to fidgeting at your desk,
00:00:41.660 can be just as important in winning the battle of the bulge.
00:00:44.820 Here to explain the importance of what's called
00:00:46.340 non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or NEAT,
00:00:49.620 is Dr. James Levine, a professor,
00:00:52.120 the co-director of the Mayo Clinic's
00:00:53.720 Obesity Solutions Initiative,
00:00:55.560 the inventor of the treadmill desk,
00:00:56.820 and the author of Get Up.
00:00:58.900 While Your Chair Is Killing You,
00:01:00.160 and what you can do about it.
00:01:01.760 James explains how much more sedentary you are
00:01:03.700 than we used to be,
00:01:04.740 and what happens to your body
00:01:05.660 when you spend half of your day sitting.
00:01:07.500 He shares how doing the lightest kinds
00:01:09.000 of physical activity, even standing more,
00:01:11.180 can help you lose a significant amount of weight
00:01:13.040 and improve other aspects of your health,
00:01:14.900 from your sleep to your mood.
00:01:16.820 And we talk about how you can easily incorporate
00:01:18.500 more NEAT into your day.
00:01:20.340 After the show's over,
00:01:21.120 check out our show notes at aom.is slash NEAT.
00:01:33.920 All right.
00:01:35.020 James Levine, welcome to the show.
00:01:37.080 Thank you so much for having me, Brett.
00:01:39.120 So you have spent your career researching obesity,
00:01:42.240 particularly how our physical activity levels
00:01:45.040 can contribute to how trim we are,
00:01:47.100 or how fat we are.
00:01:48.720 When it comes to the way our body burns
00:01:51.140 or uses calories,
00:01:52.660 you've broken down in your work,
00:01:54.440 and there's basically three ways
00:01:56.120 our bodies burn calories.
00:01:57.280 What are those three ways
00:01:58.320 our body uses calories?
00:01:59.720 Yeah, the three basic ways we burn calories
00:02:03.160 are there is the basal metabolism.
00:02:05.780 Basal metabolism accounts for about 60% of the total.
00:02:10.080 The bigger you are, the bigger your basal metabolism,
00:02:12.680 or more specifically,
00:02:14.180 the greater your lean body mass,
00:02:16.140 the greater your basal metabolism.
00:02:18.640 Now, what's important is,
00:02:20.540 yes, it's actually the majority burn,
00:02:22.840 but you can't change it.
00:02:25.100 So moving on,
00:02:26.320 the next one is the thermic effect of food.
00:02:29.280 It counts for about 11% of the total.
00:02:32.520 Now, those are the calories you expend
00:02:35.880 when you convert your meal
00:02:37.880 into intermediary metabolites
00:02:39.760 like glycogen and glucose.
00:02:41.880 So if you have three meals a day,
00:02:43.680 you're going to have three thermic effects of food.
00:02:46.300 It accounts for about 11% of the total.
00:02:49.000 Guess what?
00:02:49.820 You can't really change it.
00:02:51.740 Now, the remaining component, right?
00:02:54.380 We've done 60, we've done 10,
00:02:56.020 so the remaining component
00:02:57.100 is about 30% on average
00:02:59.000 of the calorie burn
00:03:00.500 is through activity.
00:03:02.280 Activity
00:03:02.760 is either
00:03:04.200 non-exercise activity
00:03:06.200 or
00:03:07.040 putting on your lycra
00:03:08.520 spandex shorts.
00:03:10.160 I know,
00:03:10.840 Brett,
00:03:11.160 I think you adore those,
00:03:13.040 and going off for a run,
00:03:14.400 right?
00:03:14.600 We all know what exercise is,
00:03:16.580 but
00:03:17.200 most people around the world
00:03:18.700 actually don't
00:03:19.580 take purposeful exercise
00:03:21.180 at all.
00:03:22.320 So all of their calorie burn
00:03:24.080 through activity
00:03:25.200 is through
00:03:25.880 non-exercise
00:03:27.580 activity.
00:03:29.240 And in terms of calories,
00:03:30.360 we call that
00:03:30.780 non-exercise activity
00:03:32.580 thermogenesis.
00:03:34.820 And Brett,
00:03:35.300 as a micro sidebar,
00:03:36.880 if I may,
00:03:38.080 even if you do go
00:03:39.620 and do Pilates
00:03:40.720 three times a week
00:03:42.120 or whatever that may be,
00:03:43.680 when you actually
00:03:45.120 work out
00:03:46.780 how many calories
00:03:47.780 you burn
00:03:48.400 doing those
00:03:48.960 three classes,
00:03:50.000 which are 30 minutes
00:03:51.160 and you've done
00:03:52.260 the three times a week,
00:03:53.020 you've driven there
00:03:53.980 and so on
00:03:54.840 and so forth,
00:03:56.200 that only averages out
00:03:57.800 to about
00:03:59.040 100 calories
00:04:00.660 a day
00:04:01.380 and that's if you're
00:04:02.220 having a proper
00:04:02.820 workout.
00:04:03.660 And so,
00:04:04.140 really,
00:04:05.180 for nearly everybody
00:04:06.200 listening to the podcast,
00:04:08.700 your non-exercise
00:04:09.960 activity
00:04:10.540 thermogenesis
00:04:11.260 are the calories
00:04:12.060 you burn
00:04:12.580 through daily
00:04:13.640 energy
00:04:14.480 activity.
00:04:16.160 So,
00:04:16.280 non-exercise
00:04:17.060 activity
00:04:17.700 thermogenesis
00:04:18.360 shorthand,
00:04:19.120 it's NEAT.
00:04:19.780 It's called NEAT.
00:04:20.700 NEAT.
00:04:21.180 So,
00:04:21.680 basically,
00:04:22.100 it's just
00:04:22.240 anytime you move
00:04:23.120 during the day,
00:04:23.720 like I'm standing up
00:04:24.640 while doing this interview,
00:04:25.680 talking to you,
00:04:26.360 I'm gesticulating,
00:04:27.600 that is NEAT,
00:04:28.580 correct?
00:04:29.700 NEAT are the calories
00:04:30.720 you burn
00:04:31.120 throughout the day.
00:04:31.880 That is exactly correct.
00:04:33.180 And I'm also standing up,
00:04:34.680 Brett.
00:04:34.980 There we go.
00:04:36.060 Twin standards.
00:04:37.940 But yeah,
00:04:38.560 it's all those calories
00:04:39.480 you burn throughout the day
00:04:40.500 and it's
00:04:41.540 the calories you burn
00:04:42.820 sort of as you get out
00:04:43.780 of bed
00:04:44.280 and go make coffee
00:04:45.320 and go and collect
00:04:46.440 the mail
00:04:46.900 from the mailbox.
00:04:48.360 It's the mooching
00:04:49.240 around you do
00:04:50.140 during your day.
00:04:50.860 It's even
00:04:51.320 sort of the tapping
00:04:52.300 on the table
00:04:53.080 as you're waiting
00:04:54.080 for the website
00:04:55.260 to upload.
00:04:56.920 And it's sort of
00:04:57.860 chopping up vegetables
00:04:58.940 in the evening
00:04:59.660 as you're making your dinner.
00:05:00.780 It's wandering around
00:05:01.460 the supermarket.
00:05:02.200 It's all those things
00:05:03.440 you do
00:05:04.180 that aren't
00:05:05.260 sleeping and eating.
00:05:06.520 And how many calories
00:05:08.780 I mean,
00:05:09.080 you've figured this out.
00:05:09.900 How many calories
00:05:10.680 do we burn
00:05:11.320 in a typical
00:05:11.840 NEAT activity?
00:05:12.740 So if we're just
00:05:13.380 walking from
00:05:14.580 the couch
00:05:15.640 to the kitchen
00:05:16.420 or we're doing laundry,
00:05:18.440 how much does it
00:05:19.960 actually burn?
00:05:21.580 So let's think
00:05:22.580 about that
00:05:23.140 first of all
00:05:24.080 as what's your NEAT
00:05:25.440 for the day
00:05:26.060 and then
00:05:26.960 how do you actually
00:05:27.860 get to that number?
00:05:29.620 So as we sort of
00:05:31.360 agreed,
00:05:32.380 it's about 30%
00:05:33.520 of your calories
00:05:34.260 throughout the day.
00:05:34.800 So that's going to be about
00:05:36.200 for an average person
00:05:36.920 about 700 calories.
00:05:38.620 Now what's really,
00:05:39.460 really interesting
00:05:40.220 about NEAT
00:05:40.840 is if you sort of
00:05:41.500 look at this,
00:05:42.840 if you compare
00:05:43.420 hundreds of people,
00:05:44.780 the data set
00:05:45.640 is 576 people
00:05:47.660 living in
00:05:48.740 high-income countries.
00:05:50.160 What you can see
00:05:51.160 is actually
00:05:51.980 an astonishing
00:05:52.920 variation.
00:05:54.640 Some people
00:05:55.300 will burn
00:05:55.980 2,000 calories
00:05:57.460 a day more
00:05:58.300 NEAT
00:05:58.880 than other people.
00:06:00.660 Example,
00:06:01.400 if you happen
00:06:01.960 to be a male person
00:06:03.080 delivering mail
00:06:03.900 on foot
00:06:04.500 throughout your day
00:06:05.400 or you work
00:06:06.580 in agriculture,
00:06:08.320 you can actually
00:06:09.020 be burning
00:06:09.480 2,000 calories
00:06:10.700 a day more
00:06:11.220 through your NEAT
00:06:12.000 than if you're
00:06:12.740 actually sitting
00:06:13.500 behind your desk
00:06:14.740 all day long
00:06:15.580 and then sitting
00:06:16.200 in the evening
00:06:16.900 in your
00:06:17.600 sort of rather
00:06:18.600 comfy armchair.
00:06:20.860 Now how does
00:06:21.760 that actually compute?
00:06:23.420 Now what's
00:06:23.860 most important
00:06:24.960 about all of this
00:06:26.080 is that
00:06:27.140 sort of the biggest
00:06:28.960 way of burning
00:06:29.700 calories through
00:06:30.440 your NEAT
00:06:30.940 is to get off
00:06:31.640 your bottom
00:06:32.120 and walk
00:06:33.400 and I don't
00:06:33.860 necessarily mean
00:06:34.900 sort of striding
00:06:36.080 around,
00:06:36.580 I mean
00:06:36.880 mooching around.
00:06:38.840 So if you get up
00:06:40.040 and just walk
00:06:40.660 at one mile an hour
00:06:41.580 which we call
00:06:42.140 shopping speed,
00:06:43.100 that's sort of
00:06:43.480 the speed
00:06:44.000 when you're going
00:06:44.560 through TJ Maxx
00:06:45.780 looking for the best deal,
00:06:47.140 you're walking on average
00:06:48.000 about one mile an hour,
00:06:49.260 you double
00:06:50.200 your energy expenditure,
00:06:52.020 you're burning
00:06:52.680 an extra
00:06:53.380 100 calories
00:06:54.440 an hour.
00:06:55.300 So you can
00:06:55.740 immediately appreciate
00:06:56.820 if you spend
00:06:57.580 two hours online
00:06:58.620 doing your shopping
00:06:59.460 sitting on your bottom
00:07:00.580 versus mooching
00:07:02.560 around at the mall
00:07:03.640 for a couple
00:07:04.740 of hours,
00:07:05.580 there's 200 calories
00:07:06.720 right there.
00:07:08.260 Now if you walk
00:07:09.140 a little bit faster
00:07:10.120 at two miles an hour,
00:07:11.520 you're at 150
00:07:12.520 calories an hour.
00:07:13.600 So now,
00:07:15.080 Brett,
00:07:15.360 you and I
00:07:15.820 are both upstanding
00:07:16.820 as we're doing
00:07:17.360 this podcast.
00:07:17.960 We could either
00:07:18.660 sort of sit down
00:07:19.680 absolutely statically
00:07:21.160 still,
00:07:22.320 right,
00:07:22.640 and burn
00:07:23.020 almost nothing
00:07:23.960 above basal,
00:07:25.140 or we could
00:07:26.380 sort of stroll
00:07:27.280 at about two miles
00:07:28.360 an hour,
00:07:28.660 which is the speed
00:07:29.500 of a walk
00:07:29.980 and talk meeting
00:07:30.740 and burn
00:07:31.480 150 calories
00:07:32.740 each.
00:07:33.880 And so,
00:07:34.300 when you actually
00:07:35.120 compare people
00:07:35.840 with very high
00:07:36.620 neat to people
00:07:37.400 with very low
00:07:38.200 neat,
00:07:39.080 people with very
00:07:39.860 low neat
00:07:40.320 are sitting
00:07:40.720 on their bottoms
00:07:41.340 all day,
00:07:42.260 people with
00:07:42.780 the highest
00:07:43.400 neat are up
00:07:44.260 mooching around
00:07:45.240 doing stuff
00:07:46.300 on their feet,
00:07:46.940 whether that's
00:07:47.440 at work
00:07:48.000 or at play.
00:07:50.740 And today,
00:07:51.220 what's the typical
00:07:51.900 amount of neat
00:07:52.540 that most Americans
00:07:54.000 get?
00:07:54.160 I think you said
00:07:54.600 700 calories?
00:07:56.520 Yeah,
00:07:56.680 that would be
00:07:57.060 a reasonable
00:07:58.120 number,
00:07:58.660 right there.
00:07:59.520 But again,
00:08:00.120 as you're listening
00:08:00.940 to this,
00:08:01.400 remember the key
00:08:02.120 thing,
00:08:02.580 Brett,
00:08:02.900 is that this
00:08:03.480 is highly
00:08:04.160 variable.
00:08:05.180 So,
00:08:05.380 as you're
00:08:05.680 listening to
00:08:06.100 this podcast
00:08:06.820 and you're
00:08:07.860 somebody sort
00:08:08.460 of a bit
00:08:09.240 like my job,
00:08:10.080 right,
00:08:10.380 which is 100%
00:08:11.920 behind a computer
00:08:12.920 screen every
00:08:13.700 single day of
00:08:14.460 the week,
00:08:15.460 then you know
00:08:16.300 intuitively that
00:08:18.220 that's too much
00:08:19.100 sitting.
00:08:19.840 And I don't know
00:08:20.220 if you're aware
00:08:20.760 of this now,
00:08:21.520 if you look at
00:08:21.960 job postings,
00:08:23.180 they will even
00:08:23.900 put as a warning
00:08:24.900 on the job
00:08:25.480 posting,
00:08:25.960 this job
00:08:27.000 requires
00:08:27.660 excessive
00:08:28.500 sedentary
00:08:29.120 time,
00:08:29.980 right?
00:08:30.220 It's actually
00:08:30.800 extraordinary.
00:08:32.060 On the other
00:08:32.700 hand,
00:08:33.280 if you happen
00:08:34.140 to have a job,
00:08:35.240 whether that's
00:08:35.720 working in a
00:08:36.320 warehouse,
00:08:37.020 whether that's
00:08:37.440 working in a
00:08:37.940 bakery,
00:08:38.480 whether that's
00:08:38.880 working in
00:08:39.580 fields,
00:08:40.020 whether that's
00:08:40.700 sort of
00:08:41.000 something much
00:08:41.660 more ambulatory,
00:08:43.360 that could even
00:08:43.780 sort of be a
00:08:44.340 greeter at
00:08:45.560 Walmart,
00:08:46.180 if you like,
00:08:46.920 where you're
00:08:47.200 sort of mooching
00:08:47.760 around.
00:08:47.980 You can imagine
00:08:48.860 having a neat
00:08:49.960 five,
00:08:50.600 six,
00:08:50.800 700 calories
00:08:52.040 a day more
00:08:53.020 than the person
00:08:54.060 confined to a
00:08:54.860 sedentary job.
00:08:56.580 So there's been
00:08:56.860 a lot of talk
00:08:57.520 about rising
00:08:58.320 obesity rates
00:08:59.180 in the United
00:09:00.000 States,
00:09:00.440 and there's been
00:09:01.020 different arguments
00:09:01.600 put forth about
00:09:02.200 what the cause is.
00:09:03.040 It's people are
00:09:03.440 eating more,
00:09:04.260 people are eating
00:09:04.740 more sugary foods,
00:09:06.360 people are eating
00:09:07.080 more fatty foods,
00:09:08.860 and you highlight
00:09:09.760 research,
00:09:10.200 but oftentimes it
00:09:10.860 gets overlooked,
00:09:11.420 is that people
00:09:12.220 are just moving
00:09:12.920 less.
00:09:13.500 Do we know
00:09:15.440 how much less
00:09:16.780 we are experiencing
00:09:17.980 neat in America
00:09:19.040 today?
00:09:20.220 Yeah.
00:09:20.800 If you go back
00:09:22.100 sort of 200 years
00:09:23.200 to the Industrial
00:09:24.040 Revolution,
00:09:25.380 people move from
00:09:26.480 agricultural environments
00:09:27.600 into the cities,
00:09:28.780 you know,
00:09:29.560 and then what
00:09:30.240 happened,
00:09:30.680 of course,
00:09:31.000 is there were
00:09:31.560 production lines
00:09:32.460 in the big
00:09:32.920 factories,
00:09:33.400 and then what
00:09:34.420 happened,
00:09:34.860 what,
00:09:35.020 in the 1950s
00:09:36.020 or thereabouts,
00:09:36.920 people started
00:09:38.060 sitting down
00:09:38.820 working behind
00:09:39.720 desks,
00:09:40.240 and in fact,
00:09:41.240 office desks
00:09:42.120 were actually
00:09:43.000 designed,
00:09:44.340 including the
00:09:45.120 chair with the
00:09:45.820 wheels,
00:09:46.580 to stop people
00:09:47.520 getting up and
00:09:48.120 moving,
00:09:48.500 because the
00:09:49.200 ergonomists
00:09:49.980 back then
00:09:50.860 believed that
00:09:52.000 if you could
00:09:52.480 stop people
00:09:53.000 getting up and
00:09:53.680 walking,
00:09:54.420 they would
00:09:54.660 actually be
00:09:55.300 more productive
00:09:56.000 if they sat
00:09:56.660 behind their
00:09:57.240 desk all day
00:09:58.140 long.
00:09:58.680 They were
00:09:59.520 wrong.
00:10:00.900 But that is
00:10:02.480 exactly sort of
00:10:03.380 how things have
00:10:04.120 evolved to push
00:10:05.360 us down in our
00:10:06.080 chairs.
00:10:06.460 And are we
00:10:07.020 sitting too
00:10:07.700 long?
00:10:08.380 Oh my goodness,
00:10:10.300 yes we are.
00:10:11.420 How do I know
00:10:12.100 that?
00:10:12.860 Is it just because
00:10:13.800 of the rising
00:10:14.820 obesity rates that
00:10:15.820 you talk of,
00:10:16.340 and there are
00:10:16.660 really good data
00:10:17.840 to the effect
00:10:18.500 that we have
00:10:19.280 sat progressively
00:10:19.980 more and more
00:10:20.860 and more over
00:10:21.400 the last 200
00:10:22.060 years, but in
00:10:23.100 fact, our
00:10:24.180 calorie intake
00:10:24.960 has not
00:10:25.540 increased
00:10:26.000 substantially.
00:10:27.040 The only data
00:10:27.720 showing that it
00:10:28.400 has are actually
00:10:28.980 from Australia.
00:10:30.280 So yeah, our
00:10:30.920 calorie intake has
00:10:31.960 been constant,
00:10:32.720 but it's too
00:10:33.280 much for the
00:10:34.660 degree of
00:10:35.200 inactivity we
00:10:36.400 have.
00:10:37.080 And it's not
00:10:37.780 just about
00:10:38.840 obesity.
00:10:40.000 There are 27
00:10:41.020 other chronic
00:10:41.900 diseases and
00:10:42.620 conditions associated
00:10:43.900 with setting too
00:10:44.620 much.
00:10:45.260 And that means
00:10:45.640 things like
00:10:45.960 diabetes, high
00:10:46.960 blood pressure,
00:10:47.700 cardiovascular
00:10:48.140 disease, even
00:10:49.340 some types of
00:10:50.100 cancer, and of
00:10:50.940 course, musculoskeletal
00:10:52.840 problems.
00:10:53.940 And so, you know,
00:10:55.380 yes, on the other
00:10:56.300 hand, you may be
00:10:57.100 listening to this
00:10:57.700 podcast and smiling,
00:10:58.900 it's quite interesting,
00:11:00.260 but it's bigger than
00:11:01.140 that.
00:11:01.520 It's really serious
00:11:02.600 stuff.
00:11:03.600 And it's not just
00:11:04.340 our bodies we're
00:11:05.200 hurting, we've set up
00:11:06.280 a society whereby
00:11:07.900 our kids are going
00:11:09.380 to ultimately receive
00:11:11.320 the world we've
00:11:12.180 created for them.
00:11:14.340 Yeah, I think it's
00:11:14.820 interesting you point
00:11:15.320 out this lack of
00:11:16.320 physical activity on
00:11:18.320 a daily basis is
00:11:19.480 probably driving the
00:11:20.740 obesity, a big
00:11:21.900 factor in driving the
00:11:22.620 obesity.
00:11:23.000 Because you even
00:11:23.420 talk about, if you
00:11:24.660 even look at office
00:11:25.340 work, you talk about
00:11:25.900 this in one of your
00:11:26.260 books, if you look at
00:11:27.060 office work 50 years
00:11:28.560 ago compared to
00:11:29.160 today, you did a lot
00:11:30.660 more moving in the
00:11:31.660 office than today.
00:11:33.160 Like, you had to
00:11:33.640 move even if you were
00:11:34.520 just doing a desk
00:11:35.100 job.
00:11:36.380 I mean, this is, you
00:11:37.480 know, this is 100%
00:11:38.560 correct.
00:11:39.540 I mean, I think back
00:11:40.420 to sort of when I
00:11:41.160 started in the day,
00:11:41.920 I mean, I'll give you
00:11:42.680 a fantastic example.
00:11:43.900 My very first job was
00:11:46.420 working for a really
00:11:47.320 famous professor called
00:11:48.640 Professor Davies, who
00:11:50.260 is an osteoporosis
00:11:51.440 professor.
00:11:52.860 And of course, as you
00:11:53.780 may be aware, osteoporosis
00:11:55.120 is growing quicker and
00:11:56.220 quicker, partly due to
00:11:57.320 the lack of activity.
00:11:58.820 And she asked me to
00:12:00.040 gather papers about a
00:12:01.600 certain document she
00:12:03.340 was writing for the
00:12:04.280 World Health
00:12:04.740 Organization.
00:12:05.860 I said, I'd love to.
00:12:07.180 Now, those papers were
00:12:08.240 scientific articles.
00:12:09.380 And in order to gather
00:12:10.320 them, I kid you not, I
00:12:12.240 literally had to get on
00:12:13.380 my bicycle and cycle
00:12:15.100 across London to
00:12:16.280 probably one of 15
00:12:17.820 different libraries to
00:12:18.800 gather all the articles
00:12:19.820 she needed.
00:12:21.040 Yes, it took a lot of
00:12:21.940 time, but my goodness,
00:12:23.440 I'd come into her
00:12:24.160 office, sweat pouring
00:12:25.980 down my back.
00:12:27.780 Today, click, click,
00:12:31.260 click, click, click.
00:12:32.660 It's done.
00:12:34.040 And just taking that
00:12:34.980 simple example, all of
00:12:37.180 us listening who are of
00:12:39.360 a certain age, remember
00:12:41.020 how difficult things
00:12:42.820 used to be where we
00:12:43.760 used to have to go and
00:12:44.760 get resources.
00:12:45.560 We used to even have to
00:12:47.020 sort of walk to the
00:12:47.980 printer, which was
00:12:48.660 actually in the printing
00:12:49.640 room.
00:12:50.520 Yeah.
00:12:51.220 Now, we barely, we can
00:12:53.640 actually spend our entire
00:12:54.960 day, when you think
00:12:56.040 about it, in the office,
00:12:57.840 at work, and if I need
00:12:59.060 my lunch, click, click,
00:13:00.520 click, door dash right
00:13:02.000 to my desk.
00:13:03.100 And get home, drive
00:13:05.100 through, click, click,
00:13:06.280 click, pizza at my door,
00:13:08.480 and on we go.
00:13:09.300 And if you sort of
00:13:10.980 step back and actually
00:13:13.360 think about how much
00:13:15.240 time I spend sitting
00:13:18.100 every day, if you think
00:13:20.000 about it, what's really
00:13:21.840 interesting is you can't
00:13:23.040 really imagine a world
00:13:24.320 where you don't spend it
00:13:26.120 sitting because it's sort
00:13:27.720 of a subsidiary symptom of
00:13:33.060 how we actually live.
00:13:35.480 And so you don't sort of
00:13:36.260 analyze, oh, I'm sitting a
00:13:37.760 lot at the moment, you
00:13:38.560 just live your life, you
00:13:39.700 see.
00:13:40.000 And so this is what's
00:13:40.740 happened.
00:13:41.300 It sort of crept up on us.
00:13:43.100 And all of a sudden, we've
00:13:44.380 all become, you know,
00:13:45.800 these terribly sedentary and
00:13:47.280 rather unwell and sort of
00:13:49.040 slightly blue sedentary
00:13:51.260 office workers, both in the
00:13:53.160 office and at home.
00:13:53.980 when some people or I think
00:13:55.840 when most people notice
00:13:57.480 that I'm gaining some
00:13:58.200 weight, I notice that I
00:13:59.860 don't move around all that
00:14:00.820 much because I have an
00:14:01.440 office job that doesn't
00:14:03.220 allow me to move around
00:14:04.180 all that much.
00:14:05.140 They think, well, I can I
00:14:06.320 can take care of this with
00:14:07.200 just diet and exercise.
00:14:08.300 But you argue that diet and
00:14:10.200 exercise will never be
00:14:12.140 enough to compensate for the
00:14:13.880 lack of NEAT.
00:14:15.060 The problem with dieting,
00:14:16.880 just reducing calories, is
00:14:18.460 that you can't do that
00:14:19.960 forever, right?
00:14:20.840 So let's say you reduce
00:14:21.920 your calories and you do
00:14:22.860 lose weight because, you
00:14:24.480 know, you've reduced the
00:14:25.160 amount of calories you're
00:14:26.120 consuming.
00:14:26.680 But then in order to
00:14:27.740 continue the weight loss
00:14:29.360 with calorie reduction, you
00:14:31.300 have to decrease the
00:14:32.500 calories even more because
00:14:33.560 you've likely decreased
00:14:35.300 your metabolic, overall
00:14:36.480 metabolic rate, resting
00:14:37.560 metabolic rate because
00:14:38.280 you're smaller.
00:14:39.260 So your body requires
00:14:40.400 fewer calories.
00:14:41.860 And so it gets to a point
00:14:42.960 where it becomes
00:14:43.600 unsustainable.
00:14:45.040 And I think let me jump.
00:14:45.860 Yeah, let me jump in
00:14:46.660 there, if I may, please,
00:14:47.720 because you've touched on
00:14:48.560 a really interesting point.
00:14:50.020 Not only is everything
00:14:52.040 you just said correct, but
00:14:53.300 it's even sort of more
00:14:54.980 subtle than that, if I may
00:14:56.320 please.
00:14:57.200 When somebody loses weight
00:14:58.920 through caloric restriction,
00:15:00.640 through cutting their
00:15:01.320 calories down, yeah, body
00:15:03.240 fat is disseminated.
00:15:06.120 Somebody can also lose some
00:15:07.900 lean body mass and body
00:15:09.220 weight declines on a lower
00:15:10.660 calorie intake.
00:15:12.060 The trouble with this is the
00:15:13.760 body is not a static
00:15:15.380 system.
00:15:16.620 The body, brilliant in its
00:15:18.980 design, adjusts and actually
00:15:21.920 becomes more efficient.
00:15:23.980 So in fact, once you're at
00:15:25.640 that lower caloric intake, the
00:15:27.460 body is working more
00:15:28.420 efficiently, making it
00:15:29.520 actually more difficult to
00:15:31.320 lose more weight.
00:15:32.780 So you're not even dealing
00:15:34.340 with a sort of a simple
00:15:35.660 mathematic is I've decreased
00:15:37.320 my calories in.
00:15:39.120 I'm now going to be able to
00:15:40.820 maintain a lower body weight
00:15:42.040 easier.
00:15:42.820 That actually isn't true
00:15:44.260 because the body will sort of
00:15:45.920 counter-regulate to make it
00:15:48.100 more difficult to maintain
00:15:49.340 your body weight.
00:15:50.800 And then also exercise, you
00:15:52.280 know, just relying on focused
00:15:54.200 exercise activities to offset
00:15:57.100 the amount of being sedentary.
00:15:59.180 As you said earlier, it's not
00:16:00.920 going to do much in the long
00:16:01.840 run because you might just
00:16:02.480 burn 100, 200, 300 calories
00:16:04.780 and that can't make up for being
00:16:06.260 sedentary every other hour you're
00:16:08.760 awake.
00:16:09.800 I mean, purposeful exercise for the
00:16:12.260 sake of improving your health, like
00:16:13.440 going to the gym or something
00:16:14.880 like that, is fantastic if you
00:16:18.380 like to do it.
00:16:19.100 Let's be clear about that.
00:16:20.460 If you like to go to the gym,
00:16:22.680 keep doing it, please.
00:16:24.240 It's really good for you.
00:16:25.420 It's really good for your health.
00:16:27.020 But very interestingly, again,
00:16:29.560 for even people who go to the
00:16:31.320 gym, the harm associated with
00:16:34.040 sedentariness, as you say, all
00:16:36.780 the other time that you're not at
00:16:38.680 the gym, which is basically sort
00:16:40.560 of 95% of your week, the harm
00:16:43.940 of sedentariness is still not
00:16:46.740 eliminated.
00:16:48.320 So if you go to the gym, great.
00:16:50.600 But if you're sedentary, you're
00:16:51.740 sedentary.
00:16:52.400 And if you're sedentary, it's
00:16:53.440 causing you harm.
00:16:54.920 I feel like in the last decade or
00:16:56.360 so, people, you know, whether
00:16:58.080 you're talking about dedicated
00:16:59.240 exercise or, you know, just
00:17:01.380 physical activity in general,
00:17:03.660 people have been kind of down on
00:17:06.060 physical activity as a method of
00:17:07.900 weight management.
00:17:09.400 You know, there's this idea out
00:17:10.340 there that you can't exercise your
00:17:11.720 way or burn your way to weight
00:17:13.080 loss.
00:17:13.820 You know, diet is what really
00:17:14.900 matters.
00:17:15.820 You know, if you move more at
00:17:17.480 sometimes, you're just going to
00:17:18.660 slow down.
00:17:19.300 At other times, you know, your
00:17:20.520 body's going to find ways to
00:17:21.860 just compensate for that extra
00:17:23.680 activity somehow.
00:17:24.880 But you did a study that proved,
00:17:27.560 yes, activity can keep the pounds
00:17:30.060 off.
00:17:30.660 It was this really complex study.
00:17:32.440 You basically got a bunch of
00:17:34.100 people, including yourself, and
00:17:36.620 then you overfed them a thousand
00:17:38.200 calories a day.
00:17:39.060 And then you just watched what
00:17:40.740 happened, you know, who gained
00:17:42.260 weight and who lost weight.
00:17:44.000 So walk us through that study.
00:17:45.440 And what did you learn from this
00:17:47.580 study?
00:17:48.560 Yeah, Brett, it was
00:17:49.700 extraordinary.
00:17:50.540 It was called the Great Overfeeding
00:17:52.900 Experiment.
00:17:54.380 And that is exactly what we did.
00:17:56.240 But I have to tell you, this
00:17:57.980 wasn't done, you know, using a
00:18:00.800 computer watch or guessing.
00:18:04.360 I mean, this was done meticulously in
00:18:06.520 metabolic laboratories at Mayo Clinic.
00:18:08.480 It was a big, big deal.
00:18:10.360 Every single food item was weighed and
00:18:13.420 measured chemically.
00:18:15.140 Every single movement was captured.
00:18:17.160 Every calorie burned was analyzed.
00:18:20.040 And even how people changed their body
00:18:21.920 fat was measured using precise,
00:18:24.820 precise technology down to a few
00:18:26.780 hundred grams.
00:18:27.960 I mean, it was extraordinary work.
00:18:30.020 A huge team of people helped do it.
00:18:32.600 And what we found were two things that I
00:18:34.500 think are really important.
00:18:35.700 You can take a group of people, none
00:18:38.560 of whom have obesity, and you can
00:18:40.780 expose all of them to a thousand
00:18:42.920 calories a day of overfeeding for
00:18:45.780 months on end, okay?
00:18:47.740 And the extraordinary thing, first of
00:18:49.920 all, is this.
00:18:51.760 One person can take nearly all of those
00:18:55.460 extra thousand calories and deposit it
00:18:58.560 in body fat.
00:18:59.340 That person is super prone, almost like
00:19:03.720 a sponge absorbing water, to developing
00:19:06.880 excess body fat.
00:19:08.840 On the other hand, another person can
00:19:12.000 receive the same amount of excess food
00:19:14.740 and somehow magically through their brain
00:19:18.360 get up and start spontaneously moving.
00:19:21.900 Their meat can increase for an extra thousand
00:19:24.880 calories they've received.
00:19:26.180 Their meat can increase 700 extra calories a
00:19:30.780 day through movement.
00:19:31.760 Not going to the gym, through movement.
00:19:33.380 700 calories extra a day.
00:19:36.620 On one hand, you've got somebody who seems
00:19:38.480 to absorb every extra gram of food and
00:19:42.320 deposit it in their body fat.
00:19:44.840 On the other hand, you've got somebody who
00:19:47.500 you can overfeed a thousand calories a day
00:19:50.640 and gains almost no body fat because they
00:19:53.080 switch on their meat.
00:19:54.140 They get up and they move.
00:19:56.240 So what you realize is, first of all, some
00:19:58.960 people are really predisposed to gaining
00:20:01.360 obesity.
00:20:02.360 Yeah, we all know that.
00:20:03.780 And I'm sure some of your people listening
00:20:05.680 are nodding their heads right now.
00:20:08.080 But other people have this capacity from
00:20:11.240 inside of the brain to get up and move so
00:20:14.220 much more that they don't gain any weight
00:20:16.680 with overfeeding.
00:20:18.600 And they never went to a gym.
00:20:20.700 So that's the first thing.
00:20:22.500 Now, what's the second thing?
00:20:24.340 The second thing is probably even more
00:20:27.220 important than that.
00:20:28.460 The second thing is, if you are one of those
00:20:33.120 people nodding your head right now, if you're
00:20:36.500 one of those individuals who has a tremendous
00:20:39.740 susceptibility to gaining excess body weight, as
00:20:42.740 soon as you sniff extra food, what you realize is
00:20:47.540 that the body is designed in such a way that you can
00:20:51.580 not gain more body weight, you cannot gain excess body
00:20:57.960 weight and develop obesity if you are up and you are
00:21:01.300 moving and your body has the capacity to do this, and you
00:21:04.720 can even burn up to, if you like, 700 calories a day extra
00:21:09.220 based on those data.
00:21:10.440 So, it's a beautiful idea.
00:21:14.660 You can win.
00:21:15.680 You don't need to go to the gym.
00:21:17.740 You can get up and move hundreds of extra calories a day, whether
00:21:21.740 that's converting a standard meeting at work to a walk and talk
00:21:25.320 meeting, whether that's converting shopping online to actually
00:21:28.740 shopping by foot, whether that's getting your groceries delivered
00:21:32.580 to your door from the supermarket or actually going to the
00:21:35.840 supermarket and physically choosing it.
00:21:38.020 You can integrate movement into your day, so much so to stave off
00:21:43.420 excess body weight, and you can even burn up to an extra 700
00:21:47.260 calories a day doing it.
00:21:49.680 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our
00:21:51.380 sponsors.
00:21:54.260 And now back to the show.
00:21:56.080 Did you all figure out, like, what causes some people to have that
00:21:59.340 natural tendency to, when they consume more calories, they just
00:22:02.460 start moving more naturally and others don't do that?
00:22:05.920 Is there a gene?
00:22:06.780 Yeah, we spent a lot of time on that.
00:22:09.960 And again, what's fascinating is this.
00:22:12.560 Think about it for a second.
00:22:14.300 So, what we did in that experiment is we got completely sort of
00:22:17.880 healthy, normal volunteers, and we overfed them.
00:22:20.540 We checked that they took every single extra calorie that they
00:22:23.840 were given.
00:22:25.200 We measured that.
00:22:26.140 We even measured their urine in their stool, I should tell you.
00:22:29.240 We had freezers full of poo.
00:22:30.600 And what we then measured was that people responded to that by
00:22:35.700 increasing their NEAT, their movement throughout their day.
00:22:39.380 If you think about it for a second, how did people know to do that?
00:22:43.860 It had never been discovered before.
00:22:45.940 I mean, how did that happen?
00:22:47.200 How did people, if you like, knew to do it subconsciously?
00:22:52.060 Because there's a mechanism in the brain that counter-regulates how our food
00:23:00.580 relates to our activity.
00:23:03.160 And we thought, wow, we've got to go and try and find that area in the brain
00:23:07.240 because then we can actually help people really achieve their goals.
00:23:10.640 And so, we had a whole neuroscience team led by Dr. Novak, a brilliant young
00:23:16.620 neuroscientist, and she identified tiny parts of the brain right in the hypothalamus,
00:23:24.160 which is an old part of the brain, that switches on your NEAT and switches on NEAT
00:23:29.220 more in some people than others.
00:23:31.360 So, in fact, right at the center of your brain, right now as you're listening to
00:23:36.840 this podcast, your brain is analyzing your calories in, your calories out, and is
00:23:41.960 propelling you to move more or move less.
00:23:45.400 So, yes, there's a deep biology underpinning this.
00:23:49.480 Okay, so in some people, there's a part of the brain that's more discerning or more
00:23:54.140 activated so that whenever you take in excess calories, it sends a signal to move
00:23:59.300 more.
00:24:00.240 And then in some people, that part doesn't switch on as strongly.
00:24:03.640 But a big point you make in all of your books you've written is that
00:24:06.420 even if you don't have that natural tendency to want to move more whenever you
00:24:10.780 consume excess calories, you're not destined to be an inert lump.
00:24:15.880 You can still take action.
00:24:17.140 It doesn't have to be a big change.
00:24:19.400 Just take small, tiny changes throughout the day to counteract that.
00:24:23.780 Absolutely.
00:24:24.700 And the trick, if you like, I actually, as somebody who looks after patients, I really
00:24:30.780 don't like tricks.
00:24:31.780 But nonetheless, for you, Brett, the trick.
00:24:34.020 The trick to all of this is to make a decision, is to make a decision with your day, today.
00:24:42.220 Is today going to be the day I'm going to get up and take control of my life and step
00:24:49.120 forwards?
00:24:50.260 Or is today going to be the day I stay on my seat?
00:24:55.120 If you decide to stay on your seat, my only prayer is that tomorrow you think the same
00:25:03.860 question of yourself.
00:25:05.580 On the other hand, if today is the day right now that you are going to get up, take control
00:25:11.280 and take a step forward, the moment you do that, you will do it tomorrow and you'll do
00:25:16.400 it the next day.
00:25:17.020 And the data suggests that if you can find those moments throughout your day to consistently
00:25:22.160 be up and moving, and you do it for 21 days approximately, it will become a habit.
00:25:29.660 Just like sitting down in the evening, every evening, and binge watching is a habit, you
00:25:35.820 can actually have really cool and healthy motivational movement habits as well.
00:25:42.300 So if you can find those moments to get up and move throughout your day and keep doing
00:25:46.540 it, it will become a habit.
00:25:48.560 It'll become part of your life.
00:25:50.620 And here's what the data from, we've worked in over 70 US corporations, here's what the
00:25:56.220 data from corporations show.
00:25:58.140 It's really great stuff.
00:26:00.260 Is once you've taken on one good habit and done it for 21 days, we call it the neat ripple
00:26:05.660 effect.
00:26:06.260 Is a good movement habit will beget, will make another movement habit.
00:26:14.000 And so one becomes two and all of a sudden two becomes four.
00:26:17.680 And what happens is people who are sitters become people who are movers and people who
00:26:23.220 become movers also influence their families, their kids, husbands and wives and friends to
00:26:30.360 become movers as well.
00:26:31.500 And so there's a neat ripple, but the trick, the trick, the trick is to think right now today
00:26:38.660 is today.
00:26:39.920 I'm going to get up and take control of my life and take that first step forwards or not.
00:26:44.780 And if the answer is yes, do it now.
00:26:47.020 In other words, Brett, what I'm saying is if you can get it into your mindset, into your
00:26:52.560 thinking that I'm going to fight the chair, I'm going to win this battle.
00:26:57.580 You can actually do it.
00:26:58.760 And what's great, you offer suggestions on how you can do that.
00:27:01.800 I think the trick is understanding, okay, our social environment is pushing us to be
00:27:06.580 sedentary.
00:27:07.180 Everything is like you do everything sitting down.
00:27:10.160 And I think one trick is just, can I do this typically sedentary activity?
00:27:15.040 Can I do it while moving somehow?
00:27:17.140 So you offer suggestions like, if you like to watch TV, get yourself a really cheap treadmill.
00:27:22.540 You can find them on Amazon for 300 bucks now.
00:27:25.200 Like they're so cheap and then just stick that in your television room.
00:27:29.120 And while you're watching your favorite show, just walk at 1.1 miles per hour on that treadmill.
00:27:34.440 Or if you like playing video games, do the same thing.
00:27:36.280 You can play a video game while you're walking.
00:27:38.760 Or like you said, if you take phone calls during work, don't do that sitting down.
00:27:42.860 Do that while you're walking.
00:27:43.660 You are 100% correct.
00:27:46.400 And I'm telling you, what's really cool about this is the other thing I mentioned is once
00:27:51.140 you've, and I will tell you now, 300 bucks for a treadmill in your house, that's expensive
00:27:56.580 these days.
00:27:57.440 I mean, they're coming in at $100 now, or you can get a secondhand one, or you can get,
00:28:02.340 people are throwing away their exercise bicycles.
00:28:05.160 I mean, take it, refurbish it, put it in your TV room.
00:28:08.240 And you'd be surprised that you can binge watch, I'm actually starting to re-watch Seinfeld
00:28:14.040 again, I hate to tell you this, but I can binge watch Seinfeld gently cycling on my stationary
00:28:19.800 bicycle.
00:28:20.660 It makes almost no noise, and I'm getting just as much TV.
00:28:24.740 And there is so much we can do if we put our mind to it.
00:28:28.080 And the other thing, Brett, you mentioned is we sort of, sort of society has put us in
00:28:33.780 our chair.
00:28:34.300 But the other thing to think about for a second is how we can change the society.
00:28:39.980 Now, I don't mean changing the world, let's be serious, but how can I change the society
00:28:45.840 I live in?
00:28:47.820 So, next time, if I'm dating, next time I choose a date on, I can't remember the name
00:28:52.980 of the website, whatever, where you're swiping left and swiping right, I'm actually going
00:28:57.240 to choose a date for somebody who also likes to go walking.
00:28:59.740 I'm going to sort of say, next time we all sit to come for my birthday, and for those
00:29:04.680 of you listening, my birthday is November the 20th, next, or for all of you who are going
00:29:09.120 to come to my birthday party, yeah, we're going to have cake.
00:29:12.660 You bet we are.
00:29:14.400 But also, once we've done our cake, we're also all going to go out for a walk together.
00:29:18.380 We're going to do a family walk.
00:29:20.620 Right?
00:29:20.980 So, we actually have the opportunity to influence the micro-society we live in, but we need to
00:29:27.440 choose to do that, and it's all part of the same thing.
00:29:30.380 Make that decision, take your first step, and the rest is going to flow from there.
00:29:36.180 And one thing you point out in your book is that you work with a lot of patients who have
00:29:40.280 had extra weight, and just by simply increasing the amount of NEAT in their lives, they've been
00:29:45.840 able to lose weight, like a lot of weight.
00:29:47.800 They don't even become serious gym-goers, they're just moving more during the day.
00:29:51.960 A hundred percent.
00:29:53.260 And so, yes, and if you like, there is the world of what I call testimonies, and this
00:29:59.580 is fine, and I'm a hundred percent respectful.
00:30:04.300 But as somebody with a science background, I'm actually more interested in the hardcore
00:30:09.260 data from the scientific studies.
00:30:11.500 And the scientific studies conducted in normal U.S. office workers show that even in people
00:30:19.580 who don't want to lose weight, they will tend to lose weight and become more active.
00:30:23.660 But in people who want to lose weight, people will start, if they activate their lives, they
00:30:28.720 take on NEAT, are going to be losing 10 to 20 pounds slowly and gently, if you like, without
00:30:34.900 breaking a sweat, right?
00:30:36.400 And they're going to do that over six months, and then over the six months, the same.
00:30:41.300 And so, what's really powerful about this is, yes, 60% of the population may be dieting
00:30:46.360 in any given year, but what's really cool about NEAT is NEAT is going to help you keep
00:30:51.540 off that excess body weight, and it's going to nudge you forwards and forwards and forwards.
00:30:55.960 And what's important about this is you're not going to get a sports injury from NEAT.
00:31:00.200 You're not going to have to pay a gym membership for NEAT.
00:31:04.720 Everyone can get up and move throughout their day without paying a penny for doing it.
00:31:10.500 And what it's going to help with, for those people who want to lose weight, you don't
00:31:14.480 have to lose weight, even if you have excess body weight, you're not obliged to, right?
00:31:19.000 If you want to, this will help.
00:31:23.240 So, we've been talking about the benefits of NEAT and weight loss, but you mentioned
00:31:26.100 earlier there's other benefits to moving more throughout the day.
00:31:29.280 How can NEAT improve metabolic health?
00:31:31.900 We're talking like how we regulate glucose.
00:31:35.180 Oh, this is really, I hope we have enough time for this, Brett, but let me explain briefly.
00:31:40.820 This is super cool.
00:31:43.060 Experiments were done where healthy volunteers came onto a research center, very, very carefully
00:31:48.800 monitored, and their glucose from their blood was being monitored every 30 seconds.
00:31:53.480 These individuals were given breakfast, lunch, and dinner in the metabolic unit in the research
00:32:01.480 center, and then were instructed to get on with their normal day.
00:32:05.640 And that was, you know, computer work for the morning, then lunch, computer work, and a bit
00:32:10.380 of Facebook, and then dinner, and then evening time, Facebook, binge watching, and TV, okay?
00:32:15.520 And we measured their blood glucose every 30 seconds continuously throughout the day.
00:32:21.800 And what actually happens is when you have breakfast, lunch, and dinner, your blood glucose
00:32:26.500 climbs to a mountain and then slowly descends over a total period of about an hour and a
00:32:33.240 half.
00:32:33.640 After each of the three meals, that's what happens.
00:32:36.660 Then we said to people, we want you to do exactly the same day again.
00:32:41.540 We'll measure your glucose again.
00:32:44.040 We'll give you the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner again.
00:32:47.120 But we want you to do one single thing different.
00:32:53.140 After every meal, we want you to take a 15-minute walk or stroll at one and a half miles an hour.
00:33:01.140 That's literally strolling 15 minutes after every meal.
00:33:05.380 Now, as I mentioned, without the stroll, normal day, you have breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
00:33:13.900 Your blood sugar, your blood glucose climbs to a mountain, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
00:33:19.220 If you add a 15-minute stroll, that's it.
00:33:23.340 The mountain becomes a hill.
00:33:26.180 It literally halves the size of that blood glucose mountain.
00:33:31.040 15-minute stroll after each of your meals.
00:33:33.900 The biggest predictor of type 2 diabetes is the size of those mountains.
00:33:41.360 So all of a sudden, for taking a 15-minute stroll after each of your meals, everyone listening
00:33:48.720 can do this.
00:33:50.460 You halve your blood glucose response to meals and potentially risk of type 2 diabetes.
00:33:58.700 What a win, win, win.
00:34:02.300 No, that is really powerful.
00:34:04.600 Another thing you talk about is the benefit of NEAT to our mental health.
00:34:08.160 I know a lot of people out there are struggling with their mental health.
00:34:10.720 What effect can NEAT have on that?
00:34:13.700 There has not been one clinical trial in depression prevention that includes a walking program that
00:34:24.100 hasn't helped people.
00:34:26.160 Many of us are susceptible to feeling blue.
00:34:30.280 I am.
00:34:31.240 Feeling low.
00:34:32.560 Feeling bad.
00:34:33.960 Most people listening will know that when you're feeling bad and you go for a walk,
00:34:39.400 for a reason you quite can't understand, you actually feel a little bit better.
00:34:44.800 What's really powerful are the data that show that if you actually sort of take on NEAT walking
00:34:52.760 as part of your routine, that will actually help you feel brighter, smarter, and sort of
00:35:01.060 more alive.
00:35:03.020 All of us already sort of know this, right?
00:35:05.800 We all know this.
00:35:07.100 When you're down, somebody says, let's go for a walk, and you feel better.
00:35:11.680 This is actually a truth.
00:35:14.380 And so for those of us who can take on a NEAT approach to life, not only is your sort of
00:35:20.400 body going to be better, whether that's with respect to obesity prevention or diabetes,
00:35:26.240 blood pressure, whatever it may be, but actually you're going to feel brighter too.
00:35:30.640 And what's really cool is once you feel brighter and happier, doing a little bit of walking,
00:35:37.880 even after each of your meals, guess what?
00:35:40.420 You're going to keep doing it and you're going to take on more stuff so you can feel even
00:35:44.100 brighter and happier.
00:35:45.900 And again, that's what the data suggests.
00:35:48.900 And another thing you've seen in your research and working with patients is that a lot of these
00:35:52.780 patients that come to see you, they talk about, I'm just so tired all the time.
00:35:56.060 And it seems weird because like, you know, you're just sitting around all day.
00:35:58.600 Why would you be tired?
00:35:59.300 But I think everyone has experienced how doing absolutely nothing can just be exhausting.
00:36:06.340 And by incorporating some more light physical activity during your day, it'll actually give
00:36:10.820 you the physical energy you need to do the things you want to do in life.
00:36:14.980 I mean, I think we all again know this to be a common truth, but Brett, that allows me to
00:36:19.340 touch on one other thing, which is so important.
00:36:22.400 And this will not shock anybody.
00:36:25.260 Sleep.
00:36:25.740 Sleep is a critical component of this equation.
00:36:30.900 It is absolutely critical.
00:36:33.460 And the data on NEAT and sleep are fascinating.
00:36:38.160 We brought people again onto our amazing research centers at Mayo Clinic.
00:36:42.640 These are extraordinary places where people volunteer to do studies to help us understand
00:36:48.960 what's going on.
00:36:49.840 And we brought them onto the research center and we said, have a good night's sleep in
00:36:55.120 your normal way.
00:36:55.680 Get used to our facilities.
00:36:57.080 And people did.
00:36:58.200 What we then did is we sleep restricted people.
00:37:01.780 We said to people, you're going to sleep 30% less.
00:37:04.220 We're going to wake you up.
00:37:05.100 We're going to twiddle your toes.
00:37:06.320 We're going to keep you awake.
00:37:07.700 And my goodness, yes, you're going to get tired.
00:37:09.680 And that's exactly what happened.
00:37:11.460 But here is what the data show.
00:37:13.620 The data shows when you sleep restrict people, they eat more.
00:37:18.860 We all know this, right?
00:37:20.120 When you're tired, this is me, by the way.
00:37:23.060 Okay.
00:37:23.300 This is me.
00:37:24.080 When I'm tired, I eat more.
00:37:25.620 This is always the case, right?
00:37:27.320 For some reason, you reach for the chalk.
00:37:29.420 You reach for the chips, whatever it may be.
00:37:31.740 But you eat more.
00:37:32.540 This is what happens when you sleep deprived.
00:37:35.380 You're feeling tired.
00:37:36.560 You're feeling pooped out.
00:37:37.600 You're noshing, you're eating a few snacks here and there.
00:37:40.460 But the one thing when you're tired you don't want to do is to get up and go for a walk.
00:37:46.280 When you're fully rested and you've got good sleep, you get up and you feel, what's the word we all use?
00:37:53.760 Energized.
00:37:54.520 That's what we feel.
00:37:56.300 And that energized means get up and go for a walk.
00:38:00.380 Get up and do some cool stuff.
00:38:01.700 Let's do something fun today.
00:38:03.300 And guess what?
00:38:04.080 You think less about that food you're going to lean on.
00:38:07.600 To deal with your tiredness.
00:38:09.740 So I fully understand that people may have two or sometimes three jobs.
00:38:15.160 I totally get it.
00:38:17.060 I totally do understand that there is tremendous stress at the moment and tremendous mental anguish.
00:38:24.040 But if you can find a good method to get good sleep, whether that involves, for example, stopping your coffee at noon or starting to relax early in the evening so you're ready for sleep, not stressing yourself out with text messages or arguments before you go to bed, whatever it may be.
00:38:41.360 If you can find a method of getting good sleep, that is a critically important part of the NEAT equation.
00:38:49.500 Well, I also think moving more can help you sleep better.
00:38:53.200 I've noticed in my own life, there's this idea I've heard about sleep pressure.
00:38:56.920 You have to build up some sleep pressure so your body wants to go to sleep.
00:39:00.480 And one way you can do that is just moving more.
00:39:03.540 I've had the best nights of sleep when I've had a really active day.
00:39:08.340 I think the best night of sleep, I've been chasing this night of sleep for 20 years now is when my wife and I went to Rome and you just walked.
00:39:15.780 There's like all day, you're just walking hours on hours.
00:39:18.740 And I remember we came back to our hotel and we just laid down and we just both fell asleep.
00:39:24.760 We didn't wake up until like 14 hours later.
00:39:27.400 And we both felt that was the best night's sleep.
00:39:30.580 And I think it's because we just walked so much.
00:39:32.720 And I noticed in the times where I don't move a lot during the day, I have a hard time falling asleep.
00:39:38.100 This is 100% correct.
00:39:39.880 Your body, if you remember earlier, Brett, we were talking about the parts of your brain that are sort of monitoring all of this.
00:39:46.880 I mean, one question you've got to ask yourself is, okay, I've now got my movement going.
00:39:52.320 Just as you say, you've walked around Rome all day.
00:39:54.560 I, you know, you sort of met your neat goal set by your brain.
00:39:59.520 What happens if you don't?
00:40:01.840 And I think a lot of people actually understand this, but haven't necessarily thought about it the way you put it.
00:40:08.240 So if I am sort of forced to sit on in meetings all day long, and I assure you that's often many of my days, you get home sort of feeling this sort of anxiety, right?
00:40:21.100 This sort of tightness inside of you.
00:40:22.980 And I don't know about you, but I get this thing sort of like my thoughts and I get frustrated and irritated much more than if I'd actually had an active day where I dissipated all of my energy.
00:40:36.340 And I think the other thing that, again, many people relate to, when you've come back from work and it's been a day that you've been in your chair, you haven't been up moving and so on and so forth, what's one thing you do?
00:40:47.080 You reach for a beer.
00:40:49.280 Really, what that's saying is, I need an anesthetic, right?
00:40:53.860 There's too much pressure in my head.
00:40:56.100 I need to anesthetize myself.
00:40:58.680 And so, therefore, the complexity of getting a good night's sleep absolutely relates to the need to burn off the energy that our body needs us to burn off.
00:41:10.340 We're designed to get up and move.
00:41:12.400 If you suppress the human, the human doesn't do well.
00:41:16.580 We get really, really internally upset by that, and we need to move.
00:41:22.240 So, part of our argument is that by forcing people to be seated all day, it's fundamentally unnatural to people.
00:41:30.240 And they need to move just to function normally.
00:41:34.300 And your day in Rome is illustrative of that.
00:41:37.220 So, we talked about some ways people can incorporate more NEAT into their lives.
00:41:41.480 If there's an activity that you do sitting down, see if you can do that standing up or even walking.
00:41:47.400 For people who want to incorporate more NEAT in their life, is there a goal they should shoot for?
00:41:51.360 Like, what's the minimum dose of NEAT that we need to get before we start seeing that benefit?
00:41:56.920 Is it an hour of extra NEAT, two hours?
00:41:59.400 Is there steps?
00:42:00.560 Like, what have you found in your research?
00:42:02.700 Yeah, I mean, this is a terrific question.
00:42:05.060 There has been a huge vogue, as many people know, to buy various gadgets, to look at various watches, and sort of monitor stuff.
00:42:15.700 Now, if you're somebody who loves monitoring stuff, go for it.
00:42:20.860 Enjoy it.
00:42:22.160 That's great.
00:42:23.420 But what is actually the truth?
00:42:25.380 And again, when you study this in sort of normal folk, what you find is if you give people a monitoring device,
00:42:32.380 they'll use it for a short period of time, and it can be literally, I kid you not, days,
00:42:38.480 and their use of that monitoring device will fall off almost exponentially,
00:42:42.940 almost sort of like over a cliff face, and they'll sort of put it into a drawer.
00:42:46.800 And how many people listening today have exercise monitoring devices, wearable little things,
00:42:53.860 that are in their drawer, that's powered down, that's unused?
00:42:57.520 So, my advice to people is to actually look at it completely differently.
00:43:03.480 If you love monitoring stuff, you know, get the equipment, it's great.
00:43:06.980 If you're going to take on for yourself a goal, I suggest you take on one goal, not 100 goals, one thing.
00:43:14.020 What's the one thing you're going to do for the next few weeks?
00:43:17.000 And let's say, for the sake of argument, is every Thursday, and this is as simple as it gets,
00:43:23.640 every Thursday I have to do a conference call with central corporate where they talk about, you know, health and wellness,
00:43:30.500 whatever it is, right, it's a 40-minute call every single week.
00:43:33.640 I only have to listen to fulfill my obligations, so I'm going to do that walk and talk.
00:43:39.480 That's one thing I'm going to do every Thursday.
00:43:42.000 Super simple.
00:43:42.680 Actually, what I'm going to do is I'm going to have a little chart on my fridge,
00:43:47.240 and every time I do it, I'm going to put a checkmark against it until I've done it 21 times.
00:43:52.540 Monitoring, as simple as it gets.
00:43:54.580 On the other hand, I'm going to be a different person.
00:43:57.380 I'm going to say, you know what?
00:43:59.120 My daughter loves the art stuff, and I live in Washington, D.C.,
00:44:04.500 where all the galleries are free at Smithsonian.
00:44:07.140 So, once a week, I'm going to go with my daughter, and we're going to stroll through the art gallery.
00:44:14.100 And we're going to do that together for two months.
00:44:17.920 Now, honestly, do you need to put that on your fridge to remind yourself to go for a walk with your daughter in the art gallery?
00:44:25.360 No.
00:44:25.880 What you want to do is to do it for three weeks, and it becomes a habit between you and your daughter.
00:44:30.260 And so, what I suggest, again, is be smart.
00:44:36.040 What works for you?
00:44:37.920 But pick something, find a way of monitoring it, and do it.
00:44:42.920 And the last concept I'd like to share with you in this regard is the idea of rewards.
00:44:49.200 Now, rewards are great, okay?
00:44:51.820 They're really, really cool.
00:44:53.960 But again, you have to be smart.
00:44:55.620 So, giving yourself a reward to go to the mailbox and collecting your mail on foot every day, to me, honestly, sounds a bit silly, right?
00:45:04.940 I'm not going to reward myself for collecting the mail, right?
00:45:08.380 However, if my goal is to walk a half marathon, and I had this amazing patient who did this.
00:45:14.640 She came into clinic in her wheelchair, and she sent me a photograph of her and the grandchildren when they walked a half marathon.
00:45:21.760 I kid you not.
00:45:22.700 It was like it blew my mind.
00:45:24.540 Her reward was if she could walk a half marathon, she'd saved up enough money to go to South Dakota for a week, okay?
00:45:32.220 That was her reward, and that was her goal.
00:45:34.660 And she actually said to me, actually, the reward was to do it.
00:45:38.460 So, I think if you can think of the idea of finding things that you want to do, finding a method to record it, and then finding a method to recognize yourself, pat yourself on the back, or have some sort of achievement recognition, you're off to the races.
00:45:55.980 I love it.
00:45:57.400 So, just find ways to move more.
00:45:58.700 That's it.
00:45:59.040 Again, it's not hard.
00:46:00.540 It doesn't have to be that hard.
00:46:01.660 It could be as simple as standing up at work occasionally.
00:46:05.100 It could be doing the walk and talk.
00:46:06.720 Something that I've done after reading your book, or we've done this for a long time as a family.
00:46:10.180 When we park somewhere, we park the furthest away so we can walk there, take the stairs.
00:46:15.500 It kind of becomes a game.
00:46:16.320 And finding ways that you can move more in an environment that is fighting for you to sit more.
00:46:22.520 It's kind of fun to be a rebel.
00:46:24.140 I'm going to move more instead.
00:46:26.580 Yeah, be a rebel for yourself.
00:46:28.720 Do it.
00:46:29.280 Get up and move.
00:46:30.640 Well, James, this has been a great conversation.
00:46:32.280 Where can people go to learn more about your work?
00:46:34.620 Well, I mean, it's fantastic if people wish to go to the library and get the book Get Up.
00:46:39.660 It really summarizes the work we did in the lab.
00:46:42.300 It's, of course, available on our favorite online website as well.
00:46:46.960 And that's great.
00:46:47.820 But also, I mean, places like mayoclinic.com have really high quality information on the internet.
00:46:54.720 And so please, please make a decision to get up and move today and learn more from these various resources and make it happen for yourself.
00:47:03.380 Fantastic.
00:47:03.640 Well, James Levine, thanks for your time.
00:47:04.740 It's been a pleasure.
00:47:06.020 It's my pleasure as well.
00:47:07.120 Thank you so much, Brett.
00:47:08.080 I really enjoyed it.
00:47:10.020 My guest today was Dr. James Levine.
00:47:11.700 He's the author of the book Get Up, Why Your Chair Is Killing You and What You Can Do About It.
00:47:15.560 Check out our show notes at aom.is slash neat, where you can find links to resources, where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:47:21.040 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:47:31.520 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com.
00:47:34.180 And while you're there, sign up for our newsletter.
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00:47:53.380 As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:47:55.540 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.
00:47:57.240 Remind you to listen to AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.
00:48:00.860 AOM Podcast is a production of AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.