The Art of Manliness - The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Johnny Cash

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast johnny cash the

00:00:11.820 man in black said he wore all black on behalf of the poor and hungry the old who were neglected

00:00:16.300 the prisoner who has long paid for his crime and those betrayed by drugs as a man who had grown up

00:00:20.900 dirt poor struggled his whole life with addiction was thrown in jail seven times and found himself

00:00:25.640 in the proverbial wilderness during a long stretch of his career johnny had a real heart for those

00:00:29.460 kinds of folks he was a man who had lived numerous ups and downs himself marshall terrell co-author of

00:00:34.080 the book johnny cash the redemption of american icon will take us through these biographical peaks and

00:00:38.480 valleys today we talk about cash's hardscrabble upbringing on a cotton farm his unfulfilled desire 0.99

00:00:42.900 to please his father and how his rise into stardom was accompanied by the arrival of a set of personal

00:00:47.460 demons we also discuss how after becoming the top entertainer in the world cash's career slid into two

00:00:52.460 decades of music industry irrelevance the big comeback he made near the end of his life and

00:00:56.700 the faith that sustained him through all his struggles and triumphs after the show's over

00:01:00.420 check out our show notes at awim.is slash cash

00:01:03.080 marshall taylor welcome back to the show hey thank you for having me great to be back so we had you on

00:01:22.820 the show a while back ago to talk about an american icon of cool steve mcqueen the king of cool and

00:01:29.660 you've co-authored another book about another icon of cool that's johnny cash and johnny has interesting

00:01:35.580 characters he died back in i guess 2003 but like he's still relevant like he's still he's like steve

00:01:42.200 mcqueen he's just like man he's cool i've seen 15 year old kids who weren't even born when you know

00:01:48.200 johnny cash was alive and they're wearing johnny cash t-shirts have you figured out like what has

00:01:53.480 made cash such an intriguing character i mean like what made him cool like steve mcqueen it's an

00:01:59.420 interesting question because you know i think there's a element of mystery there i mean we're

00:02:04.800 talking about icons from the 60s and the 70s where you know they weren't in your face every day

00:02:11.100 so i think that that certainly plays a part in it the other factor is that they were both rebels

00:02:18.940 mcqueen certainly more overtly so but cash was kind of like you know a country outlaw in that

00:02:27.240 you know nashville kind of had its own establishment and rules and cash always kind of played outside of

00:02:34.900 those rules and when he first came on the scene was he rock and roll was he rockabilly was he country

00:02:41.080 nobody could really quite put their finger on the guy and so i think that that element of mystery

00:02:47.060 is kind of uh it kind of chased him throughout his career so as i read your book johnny cash the

00:02:53.260 redemption of an american icon three things stood out to me that you know kind of i think contributed

00:02:58.460 to that mystery of johnny cash one you know he had a lifelong addiction battle and we'll talk about

00:03:04.920 that and then he also in his career it seems like he was always struggling to stay relevant and he

00:03:10.180 wanted to be wanted by his fans and then the other part of this kind of underlying all of it was you

00:03:15.520 know his deep abiding faith and we'll talk about that too because i think that also contributed to

00:03:19.860 his coolness factor because the way he approached faith it was different than a lot of other people

00:03:25.460 and as i read the book it seemed like the origins of a lot of these things it started in cash's

00:03:30.620 childhood what was his childhood like and particularly what was his relationship with his parents like

00:03:35.560 well his childhood you know when you talk about the the term dirt poor that applies to him and his

00:03:43.380 family because they were sharecroppers and so they were always toiling in the dirt and sharecroppers

00:03:50.080 the way that that whole system was set up was that they were never ever going to get ahead in life

00:03:55.360 they were always going to be uh picking cotton working the fields and so uh you know like i said 0.98

00:04:02.360 dirt poor is is is the terminology but his childhood you know it was it was sharecropping

00:04:09.000 it was church it was uh there was a certain rigidity to his life growing up there was no room for dreaming

00:04:18.100 there was no room for you know getting ahead in life so it was always kind of every so everything

00:04:26.080 was kind of circled and centered around the church because that was really kind of the only

00:04:31.140 relief that they could get that was the only way that they could think of maybe perhaps a better

00:04:37.540 life and so you know it was a hard tough life especially for a dreamer like johnny cash and so

00:04:44.800 he also had a father ray who was just a very stern prototypical depression era father who you know

00:04:53.980 they had kids and they had a lot of kids and that was to help work the farm because um you know those

00:04:59.840 workers were is what kept them alive they they had to work hard every day of their lives and that's

00:05:05.760 just what his life was like growing up and then of course you add alcohol to the mix and you know his

00:05:12.720 father was a big time drinker you know it adds that extra element of misery to it and the other thing

00:05:18.880 you talk about in the book is that it always seemed like johnny cash could never get his dad's approval

00:05:23.800 like no matter what he did even as a as a boy even when he was like the peak of his career like his

00:05:29.900 dad was never impressed never like that's you're you're still nothing that's correct and you know

00:05:35.540 you you look there's a straight through line in that with a lot of famous people the first person that

00:05:41.320 comes to mind is michael jackson you know you know i did a book on pete maravich the great basketball

00:05:47.340 player he was always trying to not impress his father but to seek his approval a lot you know i

00:05:53.240 remember just recently seeing the uh elton john movie and i didn't know that you know he was

00:05:57.940 trying to seek his father's approval and so i think a lot with a lot of the greats that's the

00:06:03.580 driving force and i think if you if you look into uh like with steve mcqueen i mean he never knew his

00:06:09.760 father but you know he always wanted to find him and you know basically throw it in his face and say

00:06:14.240 look i became uh i became a man i became somebody much better than you could have ever anticipated so i

00:06:20.960 think that those are you know that's that see-through line with all the great artists

00:06:25.580 well another thing that happened in his childhood that affected him profoundly is he lost a brother

00:06:30.300 his brother died in a really tragic accident right and that that was uh not only impactful in his life

00:06:37.280 but that devastated the family his brother jack was two years older than johnny and jack was

00:06:43.600 i guess it would be tough to call him a saint but the kid never sinned and he had this biblical

00:06:50.840 knowledge and this knowledge about life way beyond his years and so everybody had pegged jack as um he

00:07:00.140 was going to be the preacher of the family and you know in the deep south that was uh you know that

00:07:04.440 was like saying that you were going to become a lawyer and so jack was one of those kids that didn't

00:07:09.600 have to be told to do his chores he wasn't a dreamer anything he did was to contribute to the family

00:07:15.800 for example the one one of the reasons why he was killed was because he he had an opportunity to go

00:07:21.720 fishing with johnny it was like on a saturday or he could go to the high school and go to the shop

00:07:28.420 class and and cut up some some metal piping but he'd be making extra money he'd make like an extra

00:07:35.400 two dollars and he'd give that to the family and so that's what he opted to do that day and then of

00:07:40.080 course he got into a terrible accident where the saw basically penetrated his whole chest and then

00:07:46.740 his innards kind of came out and then he was in the hospital for a week and then eventually he passed

00:07:52.900 away and so not only was it the devastation of that accident but it was what johnny's dad said to him

00:08:01.820 afterwards and that was i wish it were you instead of jack and so that haunted johnny for years

00:08:09.640 man i i mean you can you can vicariously experience how awful that made him feel i mean it's just such

00:08:16.880 a gut punch to hear that from your own your own father but the thing is you know johnny he kept

00:08:22.780 trying to get his dad's approval he never stopped trying to win his approval there was another story

00:08:27.920 you recount this was later on his life when he was famous he invites his parents over and he invites

00:08:33.000 billy graham over and his wife for dinner billy graham he was a big deal when he was at the height

00:08:37.940 of his his career and after dinner johnny goes over his dad and says dad what do you think about that

00:08:43.080 billy graham that's pretty awesome huh and his dad just tells him you still ain't nothing boy

00:08:48.040 i mean he still his dad never thought much of him still couldn't couldn't please him but what about

00:08:55.180 his mom what was johnny cash's relationship like with his mother his relationship with his mother

00:09:00.720 was wonderful you know his her name was carrie she was a very sweet and and loving woman complete

00:09:06.520 opposite of his father and i don't mean to paint the father as this black villain you know the guy that

00:09:11.740 wears the black cowboy hat because he was just he was a guy that you know didn't have a whole lot of

00:09:16.940 education and had a big family and had to take care of them and you know he was just a man of his

00:09:22.340 time the mother was a deeply religious very sweet and she always told john jr is what he was called

00:09:30.340 this kid that he had this gift and so she she was the encouraging one so she was she was the yin to

00:09:36.320 the father yang and you know always told him god has a purpose for you and god has a purpose for your

00:09:42.420 life and so john jr took that to heart so you know those were the the two extremes you know that he had

00:09:49.940 growing up and of course that began to manifest itself into adulthood when did he start taking

00:09:55.640 up singing he started writing a little bit dabbling after jack's accident the writing started coming

00:10:04.060 through about a year or two after that and then started singing maybe a couple years after his

00:10:12.160 accident and then of course when he was in high school that's when he was really he was just kind

00:10:16.340 of known as quote unquote the the singer he was he was good he was the entertainer in high school

00:10:21.520 and um so that was kind of what his personality was like but he you know he he had no ambition for it

00:10:28.220 any anything beyond that he talked about his greatest ambition one day was that he would be heard one day

00:10:34.240 on the radio it wasn't anything beyond that and then like when did he decide to like make a go out of

00:10:40.700 being a musician it's like he played you know some kind of shows in high school but when did he was

00:10:44.600 like i'm going to try to make this like a profession when did that happen well i think that was after

00:10:49.260 he was married when he came back from his military service and you know he he worked for this guy uh

00:10:56.520 that you know he he sold appliances uh door to door can you imagine doing that these days

00:11:01.340 and uh he just hated that and and um the guy that he worked for knew john was a good guy and you know

00:11:09.340 just kept fronting him this money advancing him money even though he was a terrible salesman and then of

00:11:14.220 course when when john made it big he paid that guy back everything that he owed him which floored

00:11:19.220 the guy but to answer your question you know when he came back from the army and uh started selling

00:11:25.460 appliances but he was also writing songs and singing songs and of course you know he lived in memphis which

00:11:32.960 was uh home the sun records and that's when he started pitching sam phillips and so again it's not

00:11:39.760 not a great ambition more than a burning desire to to kind of get out of this life of selling

00:11:46.680 appliances door to door and then of course when he learned that he could do that full time well then

00:11:52.400 he was he was full on for it what was the state of music at the time so this is like early 50s this

00:11:57.540 is kind of before rock and roll was a thing this is before elvis this is before jerry lee in fact all

00:12:03.520 these guys were at sun records so how would you describe what like what was what was in the air

00:12:08.320 what was percolating and like how did that actually how did that contribute to johnny cash kind of

00:12:13.640 emerging as a as a big star during this time well if you've heard the term this was rock's big bang

00:12:20.360 this is when everything was starting to formulate you know like the you know with the heavens and the

00:12:24.940 earth you know in the rock and roll universe it was it was rock's big bang so all these guys were

00:12:31.160 coming on the scene at the same time in the same place in the same city you know you you had johnny

00:12:38.840 cash you had elvis presley you had jerry lee lewis you had carl perkins and to some degree later on

00:12:46.100 roy orbison and all these guys were coming to this place called sun records and so it was a mix of

00:12:53.340 rock country and it's what they call rockabilly and so this was all you know 1954

00:12:59.820 54 55 56 when all this was happening you know you you look back later on and you go wow this is just

00:13:07.940 how does something like this happen you know in the in the 90s you had seattle happening you know in

00:13:13.760 the 60s you had motown but this was kind of like the first post-war where things were happening at the

00:13:21.260 same time in the same city and so it just it happened to be memphis and it happened to be these four or five

00:13:27.320 people and so that's how it all started but but cash is part of that yeah and how did johnny cash

00:13:33.220 see himself because okay you know elvis and jerry lee those guys went on to be like we're rock and

00:13:37.900 roll stars that's what we do did he did johnny cash put himself in a genre no he didn't and he never

00:13:44.300 wanted to be put into a genre i don't necessarily think he saw himself as country but i don't necessarily

00:13:51.060 think that he saw himself as uh rock and roll either and and i i you know i've read a lot of his early

00:13:56.620 interviews at the time and he i don't think he wanted to be defined and so i and i think his

00:14:02.300 early music certainly is beyond categorization other than maybe it was rockabilly yeah and what

00:14:09.380 do you think is what was his big hit like what was the thing that really caused him to break out

00:14:12.960 well he had a couple of the regional songs but of course walk the line was was his big big breakout hit

00:14:19.600 and that was in 56 because elvis happened and so when elvis happened then that that's what really

00:14:27.440 kind of inspired cash and then those two actually ended up on the same bill at a lot of shows

00:14:32.680 and but i walked the line was the one that became uh the household hit and it was a crossover hit so

00:14:39.000 cash that's when he became really the the household name the ironic part was i walked the line was uh

00:14:45.700 you know a song written for his his first wife and she was bringing up the fact that you know that

00:14:51.080 you know now that you're becoming popular i see all these screaming girls these shows and so he wrote

00:14:56.520 he wrote this song i walked the line i walked the line for you you know and ironically later on

00:15:02.280 you know that wasn't the case yeah we'll talk a bit about that what happened but you know his after

00:15:08.120 walk the line his career just shot off like a rocket and he was touring all the time and just

00:15:14.020 in recording and it was really demanding it was wearing him out and to keep up with the demands he

00:15:19.360 started using amphetamines right when did this start well this started i want to say late 50s early 60s

00:15:28.400 and this happened because you know rock and roll back then it was pretty primitive i mean

00:15:32.960 think about this we didn't really even have a highway system at that time so when these guys were

00:15:40.440 doing their one-nighters they were taking these you know roads didn't necessarily freeway they were

00:15:47.540 taking you know county country highways to get to the gigs and sometimes they were driving five

00:15:52.980 six hundred miles a night if you can imagine that without a freeway and so uh they needed a little

00:15:59.480 help staying up because this was uh they were driving four and five to a car they had the they had the

00:16:05.680 instruments in the trunk and you know this was this was their life i mean they loved it but you

00:16:11.500 know even though they were young it's they they still they were on the road you know hours and hours

00:16:16.700 at a time because when they finished their half hour gig then they were on to the next one so these were

00:16:23.280 you know these these these pills were were a way to help them stay up on the road and then of course

00:16:28.320 it developed into a full-time habit and how did the drug use change them did it change them any

00:16:33.800 in the beginning oh it absolutely did you know it puts you on edge you know you stay up 24 hours a

00:16:41.660 day then you know then you crash and so you know and then it's like any addiction the addiction kind

00:16:48.480 of takes over and and you are no longer yourself you're you're a slave to the drug and so um it

00:16:56.620 changed his personality in that way for sure i mean he became a little bit more selfish

00:17:00.420 didn't eat got skinnier i mean at one point in time i think he got down to like 160 70 pounds

00:17:08.900 you know this was a guy that was like six foot two and a big big size guy and it was also breaking

00:17:14.780 down his health which uh of course almost took his life later on well and it seemed early on he could

00:17:20.380 he did a pretty good job of hiding the addiction but then there's he had these moments where it act

00:17:26.280 like his it started affecting his family and actually his musical performance were there

00:17:30.620 anything that stood out to you was like yeah this is when people finally realized yet this john johnny's

00:17:34.820 got a problem well one stands out i kind of remember the story about it would have been like jack's

00:17:42.080 21st birthday and john had his brand new house no furniture in there yet and he got the whole family

00:17:50.500 together and he set a place you know for jack i think you know the insinuation being that jack

00:17:56.640 was going to come to dinner that night so um and then of course uh he was acting very strange and

00:18:02.380 bizarre around his family you know usually when you're on drugs mom and dad's the last person that

00:18:07.940 you want to you know that you're gonna i mean you want to try to hide it from mom and dad you know

00:18:12.200 those are the last people that you want to know but it all came out kind of that weekend i think

00:18:17.100 and then of course that's they they not only said he had a problem but they said

00:18:21.760 our son ain't gonna be around much longer the other thing that was interesting about his addiction is

00:18:27.360 that he had would have these come to jesus moments where he'd be like okay i got a problem i'm gonna

00:18:32.980 commit to doing better but then he would backslide and this is i mean it happened i guess throughout all

00:18:38.260 of his life for i mean even after into the 70s and 80s he still was addicted to pills yeah he was and

00:18:45.780 that was kind of the most frustrating part writing about his life he knew better had people around

00:18:52.460 him had everything going for him and then you know he would he would get him you know he would get to

00:18:57.800 the point where he got so bad and addicted again that you you and then of course you know he'd fall

00:19:03.740 back on his knees and pray and you know after a while you go man this is getting old but you know

00:19:08.920 you have to you just have to say well this is a person with an addiction and um you know yeah you

00:19:15.640 you can't you you can't put any sort of normalcy on on a person with an addiction they're going to do

00:19:22.840 what they're going to do and they're they're slave to it and and you know given the recovery rates are

00:19:27.940 what 96 97 percent chance that they're not going to recover i mean it's a miracle that he stayed alive

00:19:34.760 as long as he did we're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:19:38.400 and now back to the show so you mentioned he started his music career after his first marriage

00:19:46.480 what was his first marriage like and what was family life life like for him early on well you know

00:19:52.480 his first wife vivian was a real sweetheart and that and that was kind of you know he he recognized

00:19:58.520 later on in life that uh you know he he pretty much gave her a raw deal in that they met i think

00:20:05.440 they met uh the week before he was going to go away to germany and they they were just young lovers in

00:20:11.660 the 50s where they meet and they had this wonderful time they're rowers skating they're they're they're

00:20:17.120 having dinner they're they're doing all these wonderful things he goes away and they promise to

00:20:21.540 write each other every day and they do and they write each other every day while he's away because i think

00:20:26.560 she had a collection of like close to like 10 000 letters if i'm not mistaken but but then when he

00:20:32.860 gets back uh and they get married you know the reality is something completely different and then

00:20:39.200 of course when he fell in love with june carter it completely changed that dynamic and so uh but the

00:20:46.000 sad part was is that you know he had a children with vivian so you know he had that's what also fed into

00:20:52.540 the the addiction was that he had this wife and these young kids and uh you know he was going to

00:20:57.680 end up believing them because he was in love with with june carter yeah so let's talk about that how did

00:21:02.440 he meet june carter and like what happened to walk the line well she was on the road with him she was

00:21:08.400 one of the acts that got hired on the road and you know that's how they they got involved the movie

00:21:13.680 is is really not reality the movie i walked the line because the you know i think the movie tries to

00:21:21.800 portray that they didn't get involved until after she was divorced and that you know that wasn't the

00:21:26.780 case but after they got married i mean it seemed like it was that was that was it it was like a

00:21:31.000 lifelong relationship with them yes it was and and and there's no mistaken that that the two were in

00:21:36.020 love and i really think that june carter was the love of his life but it just but it just so happened

00:21:40.820 that unfortunately you know he got married to vivian realized that she wasn't the love of his life

00:21:46.880 and then you know of course had they had children and then and then later on he had this whole other

00:21:53.780 life with with june carter and you said that at the end of his life you know johnny cash kind of

00:21:59.000 recognized that he gave vivian the raw deal i mean at the time like how did he reconcile it did we have

00:22:04.100 any ideas like well i i know that they became friendly at the end of their lives because she actually

00:22:09.780 came to pay him a visit to ask permission to write her book and he said a if anybody deserves to write

00:22:16.880 you for putting up with me and so he was good in that way because he didn't he didn't recognize

00:22:21.400 that but during their lifetime i should say right up to that point where he did see her regarding the

00:22:26.280 book i'm not so sure that they had reconciled anything it was just john left and now he's gone

00:22:31.620 and she had a really hard time as a matter of fact you know she was losing a lot of weight and 0.89

00:22:36.980 she finally had to see a doctor and you know the doctor said you need to do something because what

00:22:44.900 you're doing you know what you're doing now is going to put you in the grave because and you've 0.53

00:22:48.120 got four young children and the the woman that took away your husband is going to be raising your 1.00

00:22:53.720 children if you don't do something about it so that's when vivian said oh okay i need to now move

00:23:00.220 on with my life and do something else so she did get she got remarried and you know had a very

00:23:06.300 happy marriage to him but johnny was the one you know that just cast that long shadow over her life

00:23:13.580 all right so throughout the 60s this is like when johnny cash's career started taking off

00:23:17.740 he was i mean how how popular was he during the 1960s oh at one point there was a golden period from

00:23:26.100 1968 where he did folsom prison to then the following year he had the tv show and the tv show

00:23:33.340 ran from 69 to 71 1969 he outsold the beatles outsold the rolling stones so can you imagine somebody today

00:23:42.840 with a very popular tv show who could actually go out and tour and then put out all these number

00:23:50.600 one records i mean i can't think of anybody today that could do that but that was really his golden

00:23:56.140 period in in the in the late 60s believe it or not so he had a fan base of people who already knew him

00:24:01.720 and they also had a younger fan base and these were the rock and roll kids because when he had his

00:24:07.340 television show from 69 to 71 the show was based out of nashville but he was the first country guy to

00:24:14.620 invite other rockers on his show so he had dylan on his show credence clearwater revival uh you know he

00:24:21.700 had a lot of rock and roll x so on his show you'd see rock gospel country you'd even get some old jazz

00:24:29.240 artists or some old r&b artists so johnny was just a big fan of music and so he again it goes back to

00:24:37.160 he didn't want to be defined but he also didn't want to define what acts would be on his show he

00:24:42.800 just wanted to introduce good rock music so at that point in time that's when he created the man in

00:24:49.900 black persona and the only people that the rockers really kind of respected in country was johnny cash

00:24:56.380 and you know he also had the respect of people from the previous decade and he also had the respect of

00:25:02.600 country so you know at that one point in time johnny cash was the number one entertainer in

00:25:07.140 the world but during this time he's still battling addiction correct up to folsom folsom

00:25:13.060 was kind of his big comeback and kind of like his his big sobriety and then so was the television

00:25:18.560 show and then he became he rededicated himself to his faith because of all the good things that were

00:25:24.600 happening to him he didn't really fall back into addiction again until like the late 70s so there

00:25:29.560 was a period there of like a decade where he didn't have any issues with addiction

00:25:34.600 so he had this high point 68 through 71 but then in the 70s his career started to take a slide

00:25:41.860 what do you think happened there well i think that happens with every career it's what i call the

00:25:47.200 mid-career slump you know all of a sudden you're um you know you're you're no longer i guess relevant

00:25:54.280 would be the term but you know music is a young person's game and you know you can't you can't be a

00:26:00.300 rock star forever i mean the stones and paul mccartney yes they're they're they're rock stars

00:26:05.740 but let's be honest the last time they had a hit were in the 80s so that's that's four decades ago

00:26:11.120 so so what happens is you then then you start you know after a while then you start living on your

00:26:16.860 legend and so cash wasn't quite there yet so he what he had become was a irrelevant artist by uh 1972

00:26:25.980 73 and then you know that lasted for two decades he really couldn't catch you know his his momentum

00:26:32.700 again until the 90s no it was so bad you described uh i felt really bad for him like he got dumped by

00:26:38.860 i think it was columbia and then he had to basically audition like like he's just starting out to even

00:26:45.680 get a record deal it was it was not only not only that but he had these young punks who kept him

00:26:51.360 waiting you know in in the waiting room and or would just blow him off all together it was really

00:26:56.720 painful to hear those things because you know he certainly didn't deserve that he had one guy

00:27:02.000 that he you know he went up through the ranks with and and he just said man i can't believe johnny

00:27:06.720 cash is auditioning for me and you know cash did it and still the guy wouldn't give him a record deal

00:27:12.320 so um with the money guys it's always you know okay i'll give you a record deal but it's not gonna be

00:27:18.700 the same money that you used to make you know unless you sell records so that's kind of where

00:27:23.760 cash was in the 70s and the 80s yeah you had this great line you described him as he was respected

00:27:28.940 but not relevant that's like the worst place for a musician to be or an artist to be yeah you know

00:27:33.780 and i you know you can say that about a lot of artists today a lot of a lot of legacy artists you

00:27:38.240 can say that about relevance really is only with the younger audience and they decide who's relevant

00:27:43.880 and why the reasons why they're relevant is is beyond me but everybody gets there and how did

00:27:49.880 he handle this low period in his career i don't think he handled it very well you know he had to

00:27:54.580 go to branson which you know for a country artist you know that was just kind of that was like the

00:27:59.860 signaling of okay my career's over and i'm gonna catch what little fame there is to catch by going to

00:28:06.900 branson and so he didn't want to do that but that's kind of just where he was at that time

00:28:12.940 so yeah i mean it it got as low as you could get there were some times when you know then then the

00:28:20.400 money stopped coming in and he and june had to at times pawn some jewelry to pay pay their staff

00:28:25.860 because what happens is that you develop this certain lifestyle you know you've got a recording studio

00:28:30.580 you got homes you got vacation homes you've got staff and you know i've written about elvis presley

00:28:36.420 i just finished a book on him right now and so he fell into that same trap as well elvis you would

00:28:41.900 think had a whole lot of money but he didn't have a whole lot of money at the end of his career

00:28:45.800 and so you know they developed this lifestyle and so when the hits stop coming and the money stops

00:28:51.680 rolling in you know what do you do and you also talk about i mean he even got kind of desperate

00:28:55.900 there's one point where he wrote this kind of novelty song it was like the the chicken

00:29:00.440 and black and like he dressed himself up like as like this kind of weird bank robber and all of

00:29:06.580 his friends were just like johnny what are you doing this is this is so beneath you but i think

00:29:11.420 he wanted like he was trying to stay relevant uh again trying to get another hit well and somebody

00:29:17.500 a historian named mark steelper who was very helpful to me on the book pointed out that you know

00:29:22.460 johnny had a history of doing some novelty hits i mean a boy named sue was a was a novelty hit

00:29:28.240 that turned out well one piece at a time one piece at a time was another one so you know johnny felt

00:29:34.280 like that it was probably time to do another one and it just so happened that chicken and black was

00:29:38.780 just so bad that it pretty much ended up just trashing his career okay so yeah he goes to branson he

00:29:45.480 wanted to create basically he was trying to create like another dolly wood but it'd be like johnny cash

00:29:50.000 land and that ended up he didn't it just sort of a dead end then in the early 90s starting the early

00:29:59.200 90s there was this johnny cash revival so what happened that allowed johnny cash to have one of

00:30:06.900 the greatest i would say it's one of the greatest second acts in music history like what happened

00:30:11.120 oh i i agree with you i think it could be perhaps the greatest comeback greatest second act of all time

00:30:18.140 well it started with u2 and in the 80s i think the u2 a couple of members of the u2 were driving

00:30:24.580 through through the country and they they were driving through nashville and they wanted to meet

00:30:28.440 johnny cash because they they saw him as this legendary figure and bono especially connected

00:30:33.940 very well with cash and they just you know they just had a nice meal and cash prayed and bono was

00:30:41.040 really taken by that and so he never forgot it so a few years later they were recording the

00:30:48.020 they had recorded a song that they felt was right for cash and so um i think it was on the zuropa album

00:30:55.280 and so they not only did the song but then they did this um video and the the song and the video were

00:31:03.100 amazing can you imagine youtube backing you on a track and the song came out great and then it was it

00:31:10.640 was placed on this album as a mystery track and then they did a video for it and then it showed

00:31:15.580 cash in his heyday and so that was the start of it and then rick rubin then sees him playing live and

00:31:25.100 then rick rubin was the hot producer of the day and decided that he wanted to produce cash and so

00:31:31.300 he did and that that that pairing was called american recordings and so they made i think three or four

00:31:39.800 of those albums and so but rick rubin was kind of a very successful hip-hop producer and produced you

00:31:47.500 know a lot of things that were relevant so so you've got you two and then you've got rick rubin who

00:31:52.360 present this guy again and say hey this guy's really cool this is the guy that started it all

00:31:57.520 and then that's when all the young people then decided okay well let's let's explore who this guy is

00:32:03.560 so that's where cash had his big second uh comeback and then those rick rubin albums a lot

00:32:09.520 of them were like a lot of songs he recorded they were they were cover songs of from other artists

00:32:15.540 like tom petty nine inch nails but what was interesting is that cash was able to make it his

00:32:21.160 own with his own unique take on it yeah and it was just cash in a guitar sometimes and it was this

00:32:27.660 haunting voice and yeah i mean this was a generation x that really connected with them they just they

00:32:34.600 connected with a man in the black the man you know in the black jacket the man that had survived all

00:32:42.140 this and is still singing and so he was again he was he was relevant again and and that's really

00:32:49.060 tough to do you know when you're in your 60s so this went throughout his 60s and like he died

00:32:54.880 when he was 71 right right yeah yeah that last set there's some really good songs something like

00:33:01.260 the hurt video like i always cry when i watch that hurt video it is so because like because you know

00:33:07.360 like what's like you can tell it's he's talking about his own addiction and his own struggles

00:33:10.980 and you see you know the johnny cash land uh just sort of kind of empty and broken and it's really

00:33:19.440 poignant it really does i get teared up every time i watch it oh and it's pure artistry

00:33:24.820 because he put himself out there you know everybody always tries to put their best foot forward

00:33:29.620 but but cash was like no this is who i am this is my life now and yeah there was something really

00:33:35.020 really uh strong about it and um it you know it connected with that mtv crowd all throughout his

00:33:42.260 ups and downs of his life was his faith but it was how would you describe it because i think it's

00:33:47.520 it's hard to describe he's not like a your stereotypical ned flanders churchy christian guy

00:33:53.700 yeah but he was deeply religious i mean how would you describe it well he had this great wisdom about

00:34:00.400 him and he studied the bible and when i say studied i'm not talking about like a home study

00:34:05.760 i mean he he was an ordained minister and he actually got a degree and we i actually interviewed

00:34:12.020 the gentleman who gave him the degree and he said the assignments that he turned in were the most

00:34:19.040 profound and the deepest that he had ever seen in his career and he'd been doing it for 50 60 70 years

00:34:27.320 so i mean that that kind of just shows you where cash was cash also came from a long line of preachers

00:34:33.120 so this was in his blood and this is what he wanted again for me the frustrating part was and i'm not one

00:34:39.140 to judge but it was like okay so you know these things you have this great wisdom and yet you

00:34:44.180 couldn't stop yourself when the time came so um there was always this falling down dusting himself

00:34:52.220 off and getting back up again and you know and that happened throughout his whole life so it was just

00:34:58.720 it's just interesting and and you know wanting to get baptized again and and going to israel and

00:35:05.460 walking the streets and knowing not only knowing the knowledge but knowing where these places were and

00:35:10.520 seeing these places firsthand and making a film about jesus and and putting all his money up to

00:35:17.900 make the film so i mean it was it was a real faith yeah we also wrote a book about paul the apostle

00:35:24.160 right that's right it was it was it was a fictional account but that yeah so he was he was successful on

00:35:30.240 many levels as an artist i mean uh you know he was a great songwriter singer could act in television and

00:35:37.120 movies and then he wrote a fictional book i mean the guy was just incredible and the way you describe

00:35:42.960 it too is that he was deeply religious and he wasn't afraid to share it his faith and but the way

00:35:49.380 you describe when you interview you know some of the people he ran with in the his heyday some of these

00:35:55.420 guys they didn't believe in god they weren't religious and they described like even when cash got

00:36:00.660 religious with us it didn't feel like put upon it just felt like the most natural thing in the world

00:36:04.740 right and it didn't exactly so as a consequence it wasn't off-putting they're just like okay this is

00:36:09.260 important to johnny and i'm gonna respect that well and the best story of that comes from the actor

00:36:15.400 john schneider he did a tv movie with with john and he actually lived with cash and his wife june for a

00:36:23.100 couple months and they'd go fishing together they they do a lot of things together cash never talked

00:36:28.720 about religion to him but he had a bible in the trunk of his car they go fishing then the giants say well

00:36:34.580 time for me to go and study my bible and through that example i mean john schneider was said you

00:36:42.280 know if a man's man like johnny cash has to go every day and study the bible and crack it open

00:36:48.340 there's got to be something to it and so he influenced people in that way what is what's your

00:36:54.440 takeaway from johnny cash do you think there's anything we can learn about living from his life

00:36:59.120 well i mean again he was a man of contradictions and the men the the people of contradictions are

00:37:04.740 always the most interesting to write about it's also frustrating in a way but that's you know that's

00:37:10.240 the thing about artists is that they uh you you know artists are artists and you can't uh they don't live

00:37:16.840 neat clean lives they live messy lives but in the case of cash he always knew where to go back to and

00:37:25.300 that was he he drew upon his faith that was kind of like his his center and his home so that's that's

00:37:31.380 what he would always go back to and that's that's where he was at the end of his life and i think the

00:37:36.160 takeaway for me is like don't ever give up and i mean that's the thing i got from johnny cash like

00:37:40.300 he was relentless like he just kept trying and trying and i'm sure there's people who are listening

00:37:44.420 who have struggled with their addiction or know someone that has an addiction and you feel you just

00:37:48.680 want to feel like you want to give up but i think there's something from johnny cash we can learn that

00:37:52.240 you just got to keep trying man you got to get back on the the saddle and get going again well

00:37:57.760 and that certainly speaks to not only his personal life but his professional life i mean he knew he

00:38:03.380 knew his fame had been slipping away and he knew that his relevance was slipping away for two whole

00:38:08.420 decades he clawed and clawed and clawed and finally he got back there again before he passed and so that

00:38:14.600 was kind of the beautiful thing to witness is that uh you know he wanted that one last turn in the sun

00:38:21.540 and he got it well marshall this has been a great conversation is there some place people can go to

00:38:25.700 learn more about the book i think the best way just to go to amazon and buy a copy of johnny cash the

00:38:31.620 redemption of american icon and then a documentary is going to be based on this book we don't have a

00:38:37.800 title for it yet it wraps the end of this month and they should probably be looking for it sometime in

00:38:43.460 the fall of 2022 fantastic well marshall terrell thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you so

00:38:49.620 much well my guest today was marshall terrell he's the co-author of the book johnny cash the

00:38:54.100 redemption of american icon it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere you can

00:38:57.800 find more information about his book at our show notes at aom.is slash cash we find links to resources

00:39:02.700 we delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to

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00:39:47.800 but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - April 13, 2022

The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Johnny Cash

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