The Art of Manliness - The Science of Motivating Your Kids (And Any Young Adult)

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.280 If you're a parent, teacher, coach, or manager who lives, loves, and works with tweens, teens,

00:00:17.100 and 20-somethings, you know that young people sometimes act in seemingly head-scratching ways

00:00:21.300 that you don't always feel like you're being listened to and that it can be frustrating to

00:00:24.960 try to guide them in acting towards positive ends. The source of these challenges is often

00:00:28.860 chalked up to the underdeveloped brains and hormones that tweens through young 20-somethings

00:00:32.940 possess, and my guests would say that what's more to blame is the ineffective way mentors

00:00:36.800 often approach young adults. David Yeager is a developmental psychologist and the author

00:00:40.940 of 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People, a groundbreaking approach to leading

00:00:45.720 the next generation and making your own life easier. Today on the show, Dave and I discuss

00:00:50.560 the mentor's dilemma, the idea you either have to be a tough authoritarian who holds young adults

00:00:54.820 to high standards or a softy pushover who doesn't crush a kid's spirit, and how to navigate through

00:00:59.820 this unnecessary dichotomy. David explains the critical importance of understanding what

00:01:03.520 really drives young adults, what approaches cause them to shut down and disengage, and the

00:01:08.060 best practices that parents, teachers, and other mentors can take to leave young adults feeling

00:01:12.000 inspired, enthusiastic, and ready to contribute. After the show's over, check out our show notes

00:01:16.940 at awim.is slash yeager. All right, David Yeager, welcome to the show.

00:01:34.340 Thanks for having me. So you are a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin,

00:01:38.540 and you've spent your career researching what motivates young people. How did you get into

00:01:44.560 that? Yeah, so I was a middle school teacher initially out of college, and I loved like

00:01:51.260 motivating kids, getting them fired up, getting them excited to learn, and I at the time also

00:01:57.520 coached basketball, and I ran the book club, and so on. So my main job at the time was to

00:02:04.100 try to engage the next generation, you know, and I ultimately felt like a lot of the advice

00:02:10.120 that I got wasn't cutting it. I distinctly remember watching the science teacher next door,

00:02:16.280 Ms. Guilfoyle, and wondering, how in the world does she get her kids to line up and go to the 0.88

00:02:22.400 assembly without punching each other? Like that was, that's the level at which I felt unprepared.

00:02:28.740 And I did have a couple moments where things went well in my class, and they were all moments where I

00:02:34.460 created a project that caused young people to be in charge of their learning and do something

00:02:41.960 creative. So for instance, we read the book, The Outsiders from S.E. Hinton. I taught in Tulsa.

00:02:47.920 Where I taught was down the street from the actual movie theater, the drive-in where the fateful

00:02:54.200 climax of the book happens. And so we did a project where they had to come up with a conflict resolution

00:03:01.860 set of workshops to give to the younger kids. And that really worked well with my seventh graders.

00:03:07.540 They felt like they had to really know their stuff in order to do a good job and to train up the

00:03:13.560 younger kids in the school. And I just, I felt like most of the time I felt pretty incompetent as a

00:03:19.660 teacher, but those moments where they were learning for a purpose and it was making them feel like they

00:03:25.820 were valuable in the school. Those are the moments where I really captured their attention.

00:03:29.000 And so I left the classroom to go to graduate school at Stanford and study child and adolescent

00:03:35.120 psychology to figure out how to do more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff and hopefully

00:03:39.520 give better advice to adults who really need it. So one thing you've found when doing the research

00:03:47.900 and talking to people who mentor young people in your own experience is that one of the problems that

00:03:53.460 these people face, like whether you're a parent or teacher, a coach, when you're trying to help young

00:03:59.040 people become the best they can be, it's this thing called the mentor's dilemma. What's the mentor's

00:04:04.160 dilemma? Yeah, the mentor's dilemma is very simply the idea that anytime a young person is getting critical

00:04:10.660 feedback or advice from an adult about how to change, it could come across in a way where the young

00:04:19.020 person is offended or it just doesn't feel good for them to be critiqued. And that creates a dilemma for the

00:04:25.480 adult. And the dilemma for the adult is either I tell them the truth, but like crush their spirit and maybe

00:04:33.060 sacrifice their motivation, or I withhold the truth and I'm nice to them, but then they don't improve. And so

00:04:43.040 that's a, it's a, it's a hard choice because it feels like to help a young person along in their

00:04:48.820 lives, you need to be a tough, almost authoritarian dictator, but be okay with their feelings being

00:04:55.500 hurt or you need to be a pushover. And neither of those options are very good. And so it leaves a lot

00:05:01.320 of adults feeling like they don't know what to do and feeling ineffective. Yeah. And this shows up in

00:05:06.500 all sorts of places at school. Obviously, when you want to give kids feedback on their essay,

00:05:11.700 you don't want to discourage them by saying, yeah, you're just terrible. You need to do better.

00:05:16.700 But at the same time, you want to tell them what they need to do to get better. You talk about this

00:05:20.540 happens at work. This was a lot of conflict between younger generations and older generations

00:05:25.940 where the older generations like, well, these young people that are snowflakes, they don't know how to 0.94

00:05:30.100 handle tough feedback, but you're saying it's, it's not that they want to get better. It's just that

00:05:35.920 we don't know how to talk to these young people so that we can give them the critical feedback they

00:05:40.500 need, but in a way that motivates them. Yeah. A big punchline in the book is the idea that

00:05:47.640 you don't really have to make that forced choice between being a jerk that crushes feelings or a 1.00

00:05:53.760 pushover softy. You can uphold very high standards and be tough, but also be supportive so that the young 0.99

00:06:00.980 person isn't losing all their motivation and feeling offended. And the way to do that, it turns

00:06:07.180 out it has a lot to do with communication, as you were saying, that all too often, if we're upholding

00:06:12.860 high standards and giving critical feedback and saying, you need to fix this or that, whether it's

00:06:16.780 at a performance review at work, or like you were saying, an essay at school, we think it's obvious

00:06:22.960 that we're trying to help the person. And so we don't say anything about it. We're just like,

00:06:27.640 okay, here's all this stuff to change. But it's not obvious to the young person that we're on their

00:06:32.160 side and trying to help them because what they're thinking is, does this person with power over me

00:06:37.780 think I'm incompetent? And if the answer is yes, they think you're incompetent, then almost everything

00:06:42.080 that leader does to you is going to be offensive. So we've conducted research where we just clarify

00:06:49.420 the intentions of the leader. So in one experiment we conducted with seventh graders, we had teachers

00:06:54.940 provide a bunch of critical feedback on students' essays, and then the students got them back. And

00:07:01.240 then there were one of two notes handwritten by the teacher that were appended to the essays.

00:07:06.860 One of the notes conveyed something we call wise feedback. And wise feedback is just simply

00:07:14.020 better communication. It's where you say, I'm giving you these comments because I have very high

00:07:20.180 standards and I know that you can meet them. So it's still very high standards. You're not being

00:07:25.560 a pushover, but you're explaining that the reason why you're doing it is because you care about the

00:07:29.760 young person and think that they have the potential to do it well. In a control condition, the other half

00:07:36.060 of students got a note that conveyed no information. And what we found was that that very short note

00:07:42.500 doubled the rate at which students were willing to revise their essays. And that was great because it

00:07:47.480 means that, you know, you can still give critical feedback and have it turn into revised work and

00:07:54.180 listening to adults if you're just a little bit better at communication.

00:07:58.400 One of the big takeaways I got from this book, and I think really changed how I think about how I'm going

00:08:02.960 to approach when I'm interacting with my own kids and also the young people I interact with at church or in

00:08:08.500 sports, is that during this time period, you say it's between the ages of 10 to 25, there are changes

00:08:14.880 going on in a person's brain where it makes them more sensitive to status and respect. Can you walk

00:08:22.820 us through that change and then talk about how understanding this change can help us connect

00:08:27.920 with young people better? Yeah, I think that the main point is that when we see behavior of a young 0.84

00:08:35.420 person, like, that they get too offended when we give them feedback, or I don't know, if they just can't be

00:08:42.680 independent and autonomous in the way we want them to be. It's easy to look at that and say they're being

00:08:48.180 too sensitive, and there's something wrong with them, and they're immature, and their brains aren't fully 0.52

00:08:53.740 developed. Their hormones are in charge. You know, we have a lot of cultural insults, really, to talk about 0.99

00:09:00.360 young people. And what we've found is that it really helps to think not about the adolescent brain and hormones

00:09:08.640 as deficient in some way, but rather as just sensitive to different stuff than adults' brains are sensitive

00:09:16.500 to. So it's not like young people have a hormonally induced frontal lobotomy that makes it impossible for them

00:09:24.900 to make wise decisions. It's more like they've got a different set of priorities. Now, what are those

00:09:30.640 priorities? What the neuroscience is saying, and I'm summarizing work by some great people, Adriana Galvan,

00:09:37.000 Rondahl, many others, is that young people are really attuned to social experiences. So on the one hand, positive

00:09:46.100 social experiences, like pride and admiration, anything that signals that you have gained a measure of social

00:09:52.280 status and respect in the eyes of people whose opinions you care about, but also negative social

00:09:57.780 experiences, on the other hand, like shame and humiliation. And the way I like to describe this

00:10:03.240 is that the feeling of doing something really well and having other people notice that, that pride

00:10:10.420 basically never feels as good as it does when you're a teenager. And many people can think back and

00:10:16.760 remember almost in the pit of their stomachs what it felt like to be taken seriously by a mentor or an

00:10:24.400 adult or even an older, cooler kid, to have people legitimately acknowledge your accomplishments.

00:10:31.120 You know, a lot of those things, they feel awesome. You can remember them. Many people can also think

00:10:35.120 back and remember a time where they were humiliated or falsely accused or unjustly talked down to

00:10:43.220 by some adult or an older kid. And the idea is that one of the things that testosterone and

00:10:49.420 estradiol and other gonadal hormones do is they sensitize your brain to those experiences and make

00:10:54.700 them kind of like a flashbulb memory. Something that the neuroscientists often call it one trial

00:10:59.800 learning. That just one experience of humiliation teaches you, wow, I'm not going to do that again.

00:11:06.160 And one experience of pride that's intense is like, I want to feel that way again as soon as possible.

00:11:11.760 And so the young person's brain is really paying attention to that information so they can avoid 0.66

00:11:17.720 the negative experiences and find the positive ones again and again. And so that sensitivity to

00:11:23.700 social status and respect drives learning, but learning about how to be a socially successful

00:11:29.440 person in your culture. So to summarize all this stuff, when I say the adolescent brain is

00:11:35.960 sensitive to status and respect, I don't mean that they're wandering around trying to get more

00:11:40.040 likes on Instagram. But what I mean is that they're not really just in search of frivolous social

00:11:45.600 status, but that deeper, more meaningful feeling that I've done something of value in the social

00:11:52.340 group that I care about. And they have acknowledged that. And I want to do more of that. And I think

00:11:58.820 when we see a lot of frustrating behaviors in young people, the mental reframe we can do as adults

00:12:05.380 is to say, all right, what's the most generous possible explanation for their behavior in the

00:12:10.780 sense that they're somehow trying to meet their need for status and respect from their perspective.

00:12:15.840 So what is that? And I think that's a really useful frame to think about young people and how to

00:12:20.160 motivate them.

00:12:21.180 Yeah. I thought that was incredibly useful. Talk about here, quote, Eric Erickson,

00:12:24.940 the central task of adolescence is to gradually become an independent social actor who can contribute to

00:12:30.060 the community. So that's what you're trying to do when you're in adolescence. And so whenever you see your kid

00:12:34.840 do something kind of like, what are you doing there? Trying to look at it through the framework,

00:12:38.740 how is this helping him gain status or a feeling of competency as an independent actor and being able

00:12:45.140 to do something in his peer group? I think that's really useful because I think the typical way,

00:12:49.120 like you said earlier, we approach adolescence, these young people, is like they're deficient

00:12:53.820 somehow. Like, oh, they do this stupid stuff because their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed and 1.00

00:12:59.260 their hormones are just causing them to be crazy. 1.00

00:13:03.160 Yeah. I think that the default narrative we have in our culture now is something I call the

00:13:08.180 neurobiological incompetence model. And I'm not trying to be unnecessarily complicated. All I mean

00:13:13.100 is that societally we think they're idiots, right? And you see this anytime a parent talks to a kid and 1.00

00:13:19.540 they say, what were you thinking? Right? That's not an authentic question. That's just me saying

00:13:25.020 that I think you weren't thinking. Yeah. And when you say, what were you thinking? We don't wait for

00:13:32.520 a real answer, right? Whether it's a kid who snuck out of the house and the parents berating them in

00:13:38.460 the hallway or a teacher who's yelling at a kid for skipping class or whatever it was. The main problem

00:13:44.100 is we tend to not figure out what the status and respect need was driving a young person's behavior.

00:13:50.500 Like why did they think that this behavior was going to help them with that need? Because we don't ask.

00:13:57.000 And the reason why we don't ask is because we think there's nothing to learn. If you start with

00:14:00.700 the assumption that their brains are deficient and therefore they're idiots, then it doesn't make 1.00

00:14:04.640 any sense to try to understand the world from their perspective because it's just fundamentally flawed. 1.00

00:14:09.540 And then what the main thing the young person should do in that world is listen to me,

00:14:14.320 the adult who's worked it all out, right? My logic is sound and good because my brain works and yours

00:14:19.260 doesn't. Therefore, you should listen to whatever the contents of my brain are. That's the kind of

00:14:24.400 logic that you see quite a bit. And then that leads to a really harmful practice that in the book I call

00:14:29.240 grown-splaining, kind of like the grown-up version of mansplaining, where you just imply this massive

00:14:36.140 status difference between you, the grown-up, and them, the young person, and also assume that if only

00:14:42.840 they listened to everything you said, then they would make wise decisions. But that ignores the fact

00:14:48.040 that young people often have reasons that make sense from their perspectives to feel like socially

00:14:54.960 successful people in the groups that they care about. And so the trick is to get out of grown-splaining

00:15:01.180 and into better practices. And when we do that, then we stop offending this need for status and

00:15:08.080 respect, and we start working with it and using it as an asset and a resource.

00:15:11.560 And then you also have a study that was done to see what happens when parents grown-splain 0.92

00:15:17.000 to their kids or when they nag at their kids. What did that research show? Because I thought that 1.00

00:15:21.760 was really interesting. I love this. This is not my work, summarizing other people's. It's

00:15:26.380 Jennifer Silk. I was at Pittsburgh, and then I learned about it through my collaborator, Ron Dahl,

00:15:30.940 who's amazing, been a mentor of mine. And it's a great study. It's the kind of study where you're like,

00:15:36.120 how did they not do this 20 years earlier? So what they did is they asked the question,

00:15:42.140 what happens in the teenage brain when your parent is nagging you? And to do that, they did moms and

00:15:48.820 daughters because that's the sample that they had. They could have done dads and sons or dads and

00:15:52.480 daughters, et cetera. But so they had moms record themselves finishing the sentence, it bothers me

00:15:58.320 when you. Okay. And then they had the daughters listen to that recording while they were in the

00:16:04.700 fMRI scanner. So they've got a huge magnet circling their brain, looking at blood flow in different

00:16:09.780 regions of the brain. And that allowed the researchers to infer what's happening in the

00:16:15.220 brain as the daughter's listening to the nagging. And the nagging in the papers, it's kind of awesome.

00:16:20.260 I can't believe they got this into a real academic paper, but it's like, you get mad when I tell you to

00:16:25.860 grab your shoes and come down the stairs and you get mad when I say your room is dirty and needs a little

00:16:30.700 cleaning and yada, yada, yada. You just need to calm that down. And so what do you see? What you see

00:16:36.380 first is an increase in the anger regions of the brain. So the affective regions. So the daughters

00:16:42.480 are pissed basically. Then next you see a decrease in two important regions. So one region of the brain

00:16:49.820 that decreased is the prefrontal regions, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, which is a region

00:16:56.400 associated with planning and so on. So I like to summarize that as the brains are not thinking

00:17:02.820 about how to change their behavior. So it's not like the teenage girls are listening to the nagging

00:17:07.680 and saying, you know, you have a point, mom. Everything I'm doing is like not right. And

00:17:13.060 because you've pointed this out, I'm going to now change everything. That's not happening.

00:17:18.540 Right. So yeah, I thought that was really interesting because basically a teenager's brain shuts down when

00:17:22.880 you show them a lack of respect. I mean, they're just done with you. And the opposite is true. When

00:17:27.000 they get respect, they're surprisingly open to listening and changing and being influenced.

00:17:32.200 And there was another study, the Vegemite study, where you're trying to figure out

00:17:36.500 how to get kids to take their medicine. Because apparently it's a big problem,

00:17:40.880 particularly with kids who've gotten organ transplants. They got to take their immunosuppressants.

00:17:44.300 A lot of them don't take it. And so what you did, you brought in some young adults

00:17:47.380 and you gave them a taste of Vegemite, which is this like really gross brewer's yeast food that

00:17:53.400 they eat in Australia. They got a taste of it and like, oh, this is gross. And then you guys told

00:17:57.560 them, now you got to take a big spoonful of it. And you said, you got to do it because it's good for

00:18:02.360 you. And then by eating it, you're going to help advance science. But you gave those instructions in

00:18:07.160 two different ways to get them to take that second serving of it. So tell us about that study.

00:18:11.480 Yeah. So that study, it's one of my favorite studies we've ever done.

00:18:16.020 And I spent a year at Stanford on sabbatical and we came up with this model of status and

00:18:20.820 respect when I visited with Rondahl. And we're like, we need a study to test these ideas that

00:18:26.320 the hormones like testosterone and status and respect are all related in the teenage brain to

00:18:32.900 behavior. And the challenge is it would be great to study a behavior like, does a young person take

00:18:39.460 their medicine? But you can't really do that study because you don't want to have your control group

00:18:43.280 being a bunch of children with cancer who then die because they didn't take their chemo.

00:18:47.160 You know, so like it can't be a real medicine for ethical reasons and obvious reasons. So you need

00:18:52.560 something that feels enough, like it's unpleasant, like you're forced to take your medicine and could

00:18:57.720 plausibly be good for you, but can't have any real health consequences for the participants.

00:19:01.980 So that's why we picked Vegemite. And Vegemite is like the yeast at the bottom of the barrel after

00:19:09.540 brewing a huge batch of beer. Imagine you then put that on toast. And there's a great YouTube video

00:19:16.080 that is called Americans Eating Australian Foods. And the absolute best part of that video is just

00:19:22.520 watching people's disgust as they eat a spoonful of Vegemite. And it cracks me up every time I see it.

00:19:27.120 So we saw that video. We're like, oh my God, we got to do a Vegemite experiment. This is what

00:19:30.360 we're doing. And the way the experiment is set up is we have 18 to 24 year olds come into the lab.

00:19:36.940 They sample Vegemite because most people, most people don't know how gross it is. In fact,

00:19:43.420 there's a philosophical principle called the Vegemite principle, which is that some things are

00:19:48.140 so unpleasant and impossible to describe that you have to experience in yourself. And so we have people

00:19:55.080 sample Vegemite. And then they see two types of instructions from a medical professional.

00:20:02.160 On the one hand, the person asks you to take the medicine, which again is Vegemite,

00:20:08.520 in a respectful tone and respectful words. In another condition, it's disrespectful.

00:20:14.080 And we wrote the disrespectful condition with doctors to try to match how they normally educate

00:20:21.520 patients about taking their medicine. And it's very much talking down to you. It's like, based on my

00:20:26.620 experience, what I know about medicine and disease, you should listen to me. If there's a bad taste,

00:20:31.860 try to ignore that, et cetera, et cetera. In the respectful condition though, it's like, look,

00:20:36.980 you know, you're a college student and I'm going to tell you the real reason why you

00:20:42.340 might want to take this. And then they explain the logic. They use words that imply autonomy.

00:20:48.400 So they say things like, you might consider rather than saying you should. Instead of saying,

00:20:53.980 ignore that unpleasant taste, they say, think of that unpleasant taste as you doing your part to

00:21:00.520 help others. And then at the end, they say, thank you for considering this rather than in the

00:21:05.600 disrespectful condition, thank you in advance for your cooperation. And then we leave the room and we

00:21:11.060 have a camera that's a hidden camera that's recording whether people take the second spoonful

00:21:14.920 of Vegemite. And we found that in general, young people were about twice as likely to take the second

00:21:21.160 spoonful of Vegemite if they were asked respectfully.

00:21:24.560 Yeah, that's really interesting. And then you also experimented like what happens if you increase

00:21:27.740 sex hormones like testosterone, which makes you more sensitive to status and respect. And what you found

00:21:33.920 when you gave testosterone to low testosterone young people, and they got a nasal shot of testosterone,

00:21:40.480 the respectful instructions had a whopping effect. I mean, just increased the amount of

00:21:45.700 compliance when they were shown respect. Yeah. And, and the disrespectful instructions became even

00:21:51.620 worse for behavior whenever they got the nasal shot of testosterone. Yeah, it was really interesting.

00:21:57.120 And that's what we were trying to test is basically if we can temporarily make you kind of 13 year

00:22:03.520 old that's experiencing insane levels of testosterone for the first time, if we can temporarily put you in

00:22:09.160 that state, can we make you even more sensitive to subtle differences in communication? And the answer

00:22:14.500 was, yes, we can. And what that suggests is that testosterone isn't something that universally makes

00:22:19.880 your brain idiotic, just doing dumb stuff. It's more like it's sensitizing you to the social rewards and 0.99

00:22:26.660 punishments in your environment. And therefore, in the real world, what we need to think about is

00:22:31.780 how are we creating social environments that are either supporting a young person's drive for status

00:22:39.900 and respect or not. And it's not like their brains are universally and permanently broken.

00:22:45.200 It's like they're just more sensitive to the context. And so we, the adults need to be more

00:22:50.280 sensitive to how we're communicating in that context. Right. Make it more explicit. You're trying to

00:22:55.000 help them while maintaining their status and respect. Yeah. I think it's an interesting point about

00:22:58.680 testosterone. People have this idea that testosterone just makes people, makes particularly young men

00:23:02.360 aggressive, hyper-aggressive, and they just want to dominate. Its effect is context dependent. I think

00:23:07.820 I read about, if you give testosterone to a bunch of like Buddhist monks, they're all going to see who 1.00

00:23:13.180 can like out-zen each other because that's how you gain status amongst Buddhist monks. But if you give

00:23:17.920 testosterone to like a bunch of prison inmates, you might get something else. Yeah. There's a famous

00:23:22.840 study I didn't write about in the book, but they looked at testosterone in high schoolers and then

00:23:28.100 tracked a relationship with deviant behavior versus leadership. And what they found was that if you

00:23:33.800 had friends that already got in trouble a lot, then the more testosterone you had, the more you

00:23:39.000 were getting in trouble and like going to juvenile detention, et cetera. But if you had friends that

00:23:44.840 were very pro-social and like in sports and leadership and stuff, then the more testosterone you had,

00:23:51.380 the more you were out volunteering in the community, the more you became a president of a club.

00:23:55.780 So it was like more of a positive leadership. So you can think of testosterone as just one

00:24:01.620 indicator of a huge cascade of what's happening in puberty in both boys and girls. And it's about

00:24:07.600 sensitivity to what counts for high social regard in your community. And so we as the adults should

00:24:14.880 try to structure environments where we're going to capture those positive leadership pro-social type

00:24:19.600 qualities rather than kind of more deviant ways to get a good reputation.

00:24:24.480 And your book's called 10 to 25 because these changes start happening around age 10. That's when

00:24:28.880 a lot of kids start, you know, girls start puberty and it goes until 25. We're going to take a quick 0.88

00:24:34.940 break for your word from our sponsors. And now back to the show. I want to talk about this,

00:24:44.660 going back to that neurological incompetence model you talk about in the book, when you have that

00:24:49.880 view of young people that are sort of these broken, not fully formed adults, the way you approach them

00:24:55.700 is you can either take that very authoritarian approach. We just nag them to like, Hey, you're just

00:25:01.060 a dummy. Here's what you need to be doing. Or you can take a more like a softy approach. Like, well, 0.99

00:25:06.240 you know, kids are just kids. They're dumb. So we can't really hold them to high standards. 1.00

00:25:10.560 And as you said earlier, that's not a good approach. You're not going to help the young

00:25:14.020 person if you take that approach. Instead, you recommend with this knowledge that young people,

00:25:19.120 what they're looking for right now in this ages of 10 to 25, they're looking for status and respect.

00:25:24.240 You recommend taking a mentor mindset. What does a mentor mindset look like?

00:25:29.160 Yeah. So that is a great summary. I think that if you think, go back to the mentor's dilemma,

00:25:35.820 it felt like there were only two choices. Either you are a tough, demanding leader that enforces all

00:25:44.520 the rules. We call that an enforcer mindset. Or you're a kind of soft, but caring and affectionate,

00:25:53.340 more or less pushover. And I call that a protector mindset. And it's important to

00:25:58.840 point out that you can be a good person and have either of those approaches. And in fact,

00:26:03.920 I think most people, even if, even when they get it right, sometimes fall into one or the other of

00:26:08.940 those two approaches. So an enforcer, you know, you could feel like, look, society's going to hell

00:26:14.180 in a handbasket and someone's got to protect everyone from the insanity that's happening. And

00:26:19.000 that's why I have to maintain standards. And I can't, can't let your feelings get in the way of me

00:26:24.740 doing the right thing. I think a lot of people in the enforcer bucket think that way. And it makes

00:26:29.500 sense. And the protector side, they say, well, look, society is so hard right now. Kids are

00:26:35.380 just waiting and stressed. You know, young adults, they went to college through COVID and they missed

00:26:40.680 so much and they're kind of feeble and there's a mental health crisis. And I just need to protect 0.68

00:26:45.360 them because I care about them. I can't possibly load them up with more stuff that they can't

00:26:50.140 accomplish because that would be cruel. So I think you can go to bed each night and put your head on

00:26:55.620 your pillow and feel good about yourself in either the enforcer or the protector mindset.

00:27:00.480 And what I want to say to people is, look, if you're super high standards, high demanding,

00:27:05.300 great. Keep that. Just add the support, make it so that everyone that you're mentoring or working

00:27:11.000 with, whether you're a parent or a manager or a teacher, make it so that they can meet your high

00:27:15.460 standards. If you're on the protector side, if you, you know, mainly prioritize removing stressful

00:27:22.520 experiences so that young people aren't crushed by them, well, maintain that concern and that support.

00:27:28.340 Great. But then add the standards. And what you get when you have the high standards and the high

00:27:33.720 support, the best of the enforcer and the best of the protector, that's what I call the mentor mindset.

00:27:38.540 And what I've found is that when I've gone out to look for the best managers at Microsoft, the best

00:27:47.320 K-12 teachers, the best college professors, the NBA's best shooting coach, when I go look at what

00:27:54.420 they do, these are people who don't have the problem of kind of wimpy, helpless, non-independent

00:28:03.480 young people. They have young people doing amazing stuff year after year again and again, and they do

00:28:09.440 it without crushing the young person's spirit and making them feel overwhelmed. And what all of them

00:28:15.580 are doing is they're maintaining very high standards, like legitimate standards, not a fake standard just

00:28:21.700 to make someone feel good, but they make sure that the young person can meet it, that they have enough

00:28:26.280 support to meet it. And so they're all doing mentor mindset, I found.

00:28:29.820 And then you talk about practices that you can do to develop this mentor mindset. And one of the

00:28:35.160 practices you offer is be more transparent when you're interacting with young people. What does

00:28:41.100 that look like? Yeah. So the simplest and easiest thing you can do, if in your mind you're saying,

00:28:48.680 yeah, I want to have high standards, I want to be supportive, and that's going to work with young

00:28:52.800 person's desire for status and respect rather than against it. The simplest thing you can do is just be

00:28:58.780 clearer about what you're doing and why. And what I found is that the reason why we need to do that

00:29:05.680 is because young people come to interactions with us with a little bit of suspicion. They start out

00:29:11.360 thinking, you know, most adults have talked down to me and not treated me with respect. And so I'm going

00:29:18.240 to assume that that's what's happening until further notice. And that's fine, but it causes lots of

00:29:24.960 frustration for adults because they'll do things like, you know, be a surgeon and giving medical

00:29:30.140 residents critical feedback to help them be better doctors. And the junior doctors will say,

00:29:37.600 this person thinks I'm a terrible doctor and they hate me rather than they're caring for me and they're

00:29:42.700 trying to help me to be a better doctor. So we're over young people, whether it's a parent or a teacher

00:29:49.220 or a boss, and they could reasonably feel threatened by what we're doing. If you just explain your

00:29:55.600 intentions about two to three times more than you think you need to, then that can go a long way.

00:30:01.980 If you just explain yourself, here's what I'm doing and why, here's why I thought it's in your best

00:30:07.960 interest. And also here's how I'm going to support you to do the following. Just that little explanation

00:30:12.500 can cause them to view our behaviors in a more positive light.

00:30:15.740 And that goes back to that wise feedback you talked about earlier, right? So instead of just

00:30:21.580 giving the critical feedback, like, Hey, here's what's wrong with your essay, or here's what you

00:30:26.320 did wrong during the operation. Before you do that, you'd say, look, I have really high standards of

00:30:31.740 what I expect and, but I think you're capable of doing it. So I'm giving you this feedback so that

00:30:37.620 you can get better. Like you're being incredibly transparent about why you're doing this because it's

00:30:42.280 not obvious to the young person. Right. And I write about a manager at a supermarket named Ole

00:30:48.400 in Norway, and I interviewed him and all of his employees and is just amazing what he does.

00:30:54.400 He says stuff like, I care about you too much to hold you to low standards. I want you to be the

00:31:00.640 best version of yourself at this job. And I then want to brag about you to my boss so that you're in

00:31:06.180 line for promotions so that you're getting training, et cetera. So he makes it about them

00:31:12.520 earning a high status reputation, a prestigious reputation for having done a good job. And that's

00:31:18.800 motivating to people. And so I talked to this one woman who she was like, yeah, I got called into the

00:31:24.760 manager's office for goofing off in the back room. And he really laid into me. And I was like,

00:31:30.240 oh man, were you offended? Were you going to quit? And did you yell at him? Did you complain to your

00:31:35.740 colleagues? She was like, no, he was looking out for me. Like he, he more or less yelled at her,

00:31:41.800 but she was like, that's because he thinks I could be better at this job. And she didn't have a college

00:31:46.640 education. She wasn't going to do anything else besides retail. She didn't have ambitions for

00:31:51.960 anything else, but her boss took her seriously. And now five years later, she's still with the company

00:31:57.320 and she's in a leadership track. So yeah, I think that just clarifying what we're doing sometimes

00:32:04.040 takes the sting out of the negative experience of being critiqued and it can turn it from something

00:32:10.300 that young people hate to something that is a turning point in their lives. You also talk about

00:32:15.680 asking better questions. What are some mentor mindset questions we can start asking to help young

00:32:20.880 people work through their, their own problems? Yeah. I think asking questions is one of those things

00:32:26.080 where I studied all these exemplary mentor mindset leaders. And I was surprised that they're almost

00:32:32.780 always asking what the young person was thinking and where they were headed and so on, rather than

00:32:38.920 telling them what to do. I mean, I think in my own kind of mediocre life as a teacher, if I saw a kid

00:32:45.740 make a mistake, I'd be like, Oh, you just missed this part. This part is easy. You got it. Go do this.

00:32:52.260 And I would just kind of tell them what to do and think I was doing a great job because I told them

00:32:57.860 that they should be confident. And the great teachers I watched never did that. Like at all,

00:33:04.420 like they would just be like, huh, what? That's your answer. That's interesting. Where did that come

00:33:09.580 from? And then they explained their logic and they're like, huh, well, what would happen if you did this?

00:33:14.800 And then they would change something and then they'd be like, Oh my God, I get it. And there

00:33:19.480 would be these moments where the kids piecing it together in their head rather than the teacher

00:33:25.100 troubleshooting it in their head and then telling the kid what the problem is. And so questioning

00:33:30.580 is this way of kind of building autonomy and agency and expertise in the young person so that they have

00:33:37.700 to do the thinking. The NBA coach that I followed, his name is Chip England. He was the Spurs

00:33:43.000 shooting coach for 17 years when they, the San Antonio Spurs, when they won a series of championships

00:33:48.880 for the NBA. And he's always kind of asking questions. And I asked him why, and he said,

00:33:55.380 my goal is to give them a coach in the head that maybe they shoot with me for an hour, but they've got

00:34:00.280 dozens of other hours in the day. I want them to be applying the same thinking, even when they're not

00:34:05.620 with me. And I think that questioning is a way to give that to young person while also implying that

00:34:13.480 they have it in them to think for themselves. So the secondary purpose of a question, of course,

00:34:18.020 is that it's just more respectful than telling someone what to do.

00:34:22.060 How do you ask questions? So it's not patronizing. Cause you know,

00:34:25.560 okay, I'm gonna ask my kid a question. Like when they mess up, what were you thinking? The kids is

00:34:30.200 like, okay, I'm shutting down. So how do you ask these questions? So it shows respect?

00:34:33.960 Well, there's a lot of interesting science on this. The linguists distinguish between different

00:34:39.600 types of questions and the style that seems to be most effective in this kind of case is what

00:34:45.940 is called an authentic question with uptake. So an authentic question just means that the asker

00:34:53.080 is legitimately curious about the person's response. So like, what were you thinking is not an authentic

00:34:59.580 question because you don't actually want to know the answer, what they were thinking, but you could

00:35:03.940 ask something very similar. You could be like, huh, what was your logic here? Like, you know,

00:35:09.520 walk me through it. And there's a way of doing that where it feels like an accusation, but there's also

00:35:14.080 a way of doing it where the young person's like, oh, okay, well, they're kind of curious about what

00:35:18.880 my, what my thinking was. So authentic is the first part. And the second is uptake. Uptake just means

00:35:24.920 that your line of questioning builds in some way on what the young person has said. So again,

00:35:30.220 if you say, what were you thinking? And then you already know that you're just going to prosecute

00:35:36.260 a case. Like you've got a series of questions you're going to ask no matter what they said.

00:35:40.300 That's not uptake. The young person isn't contributing to that conversation. It's a one

00:35:44.840 way conversation, but uptake in its very simplest form is it, I mean, you can even do it with,

00:35:51.560 with the old negotiation tactic of mirroring to say, you just, you can just repeat back to the young

00:35:57.420 person what they said, but with an inquisitive tone. There's great research on this. It's called

00:36:02.220 a repeat sometimes in the literature. Like if a kid is says, you know, one, two, three, five, nine,

00:36:08.880 10. And then, you know, you could say that's been correct. It should be one, two, three, four,

00:36:13.880 five, six, seven, but you could also say five, nine, 10. And then the young person would immediately

00:36:19.020 know that you're questioning their logic there. And then they would correct it. They'd be like,

00:36:22.720 oh yeah, you're right. It's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. You can do the same kind

00:36:26.440 of thing and dialogue with the young person by just mirroring back to them, what they said in

00:36:31.380 inquisitive tone. And then that starts the conversation. We also talk about the importance

00:36:35.840 of belonging and helping kids get motivated. Talk to us about that research. Yeah. So we now know

00:36:42.680 there's a fundamental need to belong, right? To be connected to others. The more that that idea has

00:36:47.380 become popular, the more that ideas about belonging have become a caricature. So you see on college

00:36:53.920 campuses, they'll hand out, you belong laptop sticker as though that's going to make students

00:36:59.520 feel like they belong because the sticker told them, or you see anti-bullying campaigns where

00:37:05.080 it'll say you belong. And it's like a kid in like a jumpy house who's alone and they're jumping for joy.

00:37:11.800 And you look at the poster, the you belong poster and you're like, well, why is that kid alone? And

00:37:17.460 also that kid's way too old to be in a jumpy house. And so maybe that's why they don't have any

00:37:21.160 friends or whatever it is. Those kind of glib belonging by fiat messages don't really convince

00:37:29.440 a young person that they can be accepted by a group that they care about. And that's fundamentally

00:37:34.960 the issue is that to be accepted, you have to feel like you've added something of value to what the

00:37:42.340 group cares about. And you can't declare that by fiat. Young people have to show it. They have to

00:37:48.580 get what the anthropologists call earned prestige. So in like our evolutionary history, you couldn't

00:37:54.920 just talk a big game about tracking down a deer and feeding it to everyone else. Or you couldn't

00:38:00.820 just because you're tall say, all right, that person's going to get us lots of food or whatever it is

00:38:05.540 they need to do to contribute. Like you actually have to go out and kill the deer, help them kill 0.96

00:38:09.740 the deer and bring it back. You have to show the group that you have something of value. And so the feeling

00:38:15.340 of belonging and being accepted is intimately tied to feelings of competence. Where all this is going

00:38:21.180 is that what we found is that a much better way to help young people with a sense of belonging,

00:38:26.360 whether it's high schoolers getting bullied or college students wondering whether they're in the

00:38:31.020 right place or new employees in their twenties, wondering if they've picked the right job is to

00:38:36.420 help them deal with. And by deal with, I mean, tell themselves a better story about any worries about

00:38:43.600 competence early on in their career or their role. So imagine a college student who starts out

00:38:50.740 in a calculus class and then bombs the first test. They're like, well, I'm an idiot. I don't know 1.00

00:38:55.240 calculus and therefore I don't belong in this class or maybe even at this university or an employee where

00:39:00.440 they do their first major project. They give a presentation to senior management and it kind of

00:39:04.960 bombs. And they're like, do they think I'm an idiot? Like, am I an idiot? Should I not be here? 1.00

00:39:09.440 So you're like competence worries are tied to your belonging. So what we have found in our

00:39:15.260 experiments is you can give people a different story about their competence early on in some

00:39:21.360 role or career, and then they can reach a different set of conclusions about belonging.

00:39:25.560 So what's the different story? The different story is basically that early difficulties are normal,

00:39:31.300 that they're struggling in a first presentation or in a first exam is a normal part of doing something

00:39:38.300 ambitious and hard that is legitimately challenging and that not everyone is doing.

00:39:43.920 And so you should expect some level of difficulty and it's not a sign you don't belong. It's a sign

00:39:48.740 that actually you're coming to belong because you're starting to face the new, higher, more difficult

00:39:53.660 standards. And then the next step is to help them understand how that normal experience of

00:39:58.920 difficulty improves. You can't just say, hey, everybody goes through difficulty and it sucks for

00:40:03.580 everybody. You have to also help them understand how it gets better. And the way it gets better

00:40:07.920 ideally involves something that the person can do. You can take steps. You can talk to this person or

00:40:13.140 that person. You can join this or that activity. And then over time, it can snowball into a better

00:40:18.280 outcome. And we've done a number of experiments where with high schoolers and bullying, we found that

00:40:23.760 this storytelling approach about belonging reduced levels of cortisol, improved health, even improved

00:40:30.140 grades up to a year later. And in the college setting, in a paper that was led by Greg Walton and many

00:40:36.680 others in science a couple of years ago, we found that you could reduce a portion of overall achievement

00:40:43.840 gaps for entire universities. If you could help young people tell themselves a better story about

00:40:49.220 belonging, ideally early on in the process. That's really interesting. I wanted to end with

00:40:54.740 this antidote. It was actually a really powerful story you told about how understanding that young

00:41:02.200 people are motivated this period between the ages of 10 to 25. They're motivated by status and respect.

00:41:07.960 How understanding that helped like quitting smoking or stopping smoking campaigns. Oh yeah.

00:41:13.900 Walk us through that. Yeah. I mean, this is, I'm glad you came back. This is one of my favorite

00:41:18.920 stories. And a lot of people have written about the truth campaign is what it's called, but I did some

00:41:24.320 original reporting on it. That was fun to do. So when the tobacco companies had to settle for a large

00:41:31.980 amount of money with the state of Florida, because the science, especially on secondhand smoking was

00:41:37.900 super clear about how it was causing cancer and therefore a health burden for the state, they were

00:41:43.860 required to pay for ads. The tobacco companies were in a couple of different ways. One, they hired their

00:41:50.980 own firms to come up with anti-smoking ads. And also they had to put money into this other entity

00:41:58.100 that would hire its own firm. So the smoking ads that the tobacco companies paid for were think,

00:42:05.880 don't smoke. And tobacco is wacko if you're a teen. And it's just like, I mean, it's so great. I just

00:42:13.560 like the, this is the best evil genius move I've like ever seen. So think, don't smoke. I use this in my

00:42:19.780 class a lot. And I always ask like, okay, what does that imply? And it implies of course that you're

00:42:25.120 not thinking. Right. And so it's already nagging you. And then it says, don't smoke. So it's like

00:42:31.680 grown splaining to you. It's just telling you what to not do. So at first insults you and second tells

00:42:37.340 you what to do. So it's like in three beautiful words, they offended everything about the teenage

00:42:43.300 mind with think, don't smoke. So that was, that was pretty smart on their behalf. And what they found

00:42:48.380 is that the more that counties were exposed to think, don't smoke ads, the more young people

00:42:54.540 were intrigued by smoking and the more positively they felt about the tobacco companies. Tobacco is

00:42:59.940 wacko. If you're a teen is the other one. I mean, so good, right? So first of all, what does that

00:43:04.760 imply? It implies that tobacco is not wacko if you're grown up. And the number one thing teenagers

00:43:12.200 want to do is be like grownups. And so it's a subtle argument telling you to smoke more.

00:43:19.620 Therefore you're a grownup, but also it was just dorky. I mean, tobacco is wacko. I mean, 0.95

00:43:24.040 can you imagine being like 15 and you're at like, you know, after sports practice in a circle with like

00:43:31.540 four other kids. And one is like the girl you have a crush on and you're just dying to look cool in front

00:43:36.220 of her and you would do anything. And then she'd hands you a cigarette and you're like, sorry,

00:43:40.980 unfortunately I'm a teen. So this would be wacko for me to do. Like, of course that wouldn't happen.

00:43:46.300 And so what Bogusky did is he was the creative director at a agency called Crispin Porter plus

00:43:52.940 Bogusky. That's now a very well-known agency, but at the time was kind of an upstart newer agency.

00:43:58.240 He was contacted by the other pool of money from the Florida settlement that was more run by a third

00:44:06.640 party and the centers for disease control. And he was going to create the anti-smoking ads with the

00:44:11.700 tobacco company's money from the settlement. And the center for disease control had a strategy that was

00:44:18.640 very much in the groan-splaining vein of things and was destined to fail. And the reason Bogusky,

00:44:25.140 Bogusky, who was just like an awesome, cool guy. And I got to meet him and talk with him and just

00:44:30.500 like, just like the most creative, fun person you've ever met in your life. And he had previously

00:44:36.560 seen the CDC strategy and he sent a bunch of his creative staff out to skate parks. So he had

00:44:43.040 employees who looked like 16 year olds basically. And they showed up with, you know, stocking caps and

00:44:47.860 chain wallets at the skate park and then would talk to other teenagers and be like, Hey, uh,

00:44:52.420 and then, and they would ask the three main points of the CDC strategy. And the CDC strategy was

00:44:58.240 smoking will cause cancer. Smoking gives you yellow teeth and smoking is not sexy.

00:45:03.520 And so Bogusky's team would be like, Hey, uh, did you know smoking causes cancer? And then some kid

00:45:11.260 at the skate park while smoking a cigarette could perfectly describe the science of how smoking

00:45:16.580 causes cancer. So there's like no surprise there. And then he'd be like, yeah, but do you know what'll

00:45:21.200 give you yellow teeth? And like, yeah, when I'm 60, but not now. And by the way, smoking makes me

00:45:27.520 super sexy cause I get laid all the time. And so smoke is the best. So it's like everything about

00:45:33.360 the CDC strategy was destined to fail. And so Bogusky came back to the boardroom and was like,

00:45:39.660 this is not going to work and came up with alternative strategy. That's now called the truth campaign.

00:45:45.320 And the idea behind the truth campaign is to really work with the young person's desire for

00:45:51.960 status and respect rather than against it. And in this context, what that means is saying, look,

00:45:57.000 the reason why so many teenagers smoke is because the tobacco companies marketed cigarettes to them

00:46:03.220 at an early age in a deceptive way, only to exploit their desire to fit in or whatever. So they could

00:46:10.600 make money and get you hooked for the rest of your life. And then you'll die when you're old and kind

00:46:17.180 of just revealing the authentic marketing strategy of the tobacco companies. And all this stuff is true,

00:46:22.600 right? Joe Camel, Marble, man, they're designed to appeal to teenagers, especially teenage boys.

00:46:28.580 And so they ran ads initially in Florida that showed tobacco executives walking through a hospital,

00:46:35.580 talking to dying cigarette smoking patients, thanking them for their years of service,

00:46:42.000 and then wondering aloud, how are we ever going to replace you? And then the executives turn around

00:46:47.760 and see like a teenage girl in the waiting room. And then they creepily stare at the teenage girl.

00:46:53.380 And that ad says something about how, you know, like what do a bunch of old men want from teenage girls

00:47:00.060 is more or less what the argument goes. And so that's just so gross. Like it was immediate turnoff. 0.91

00:47:05.580 Teenagers are like, I'm not going to give money to these people. They're a bunch of

00:47:08.640 creepy old executives that are, you know, like trying to attract teenagers. So that ad, 0.53

00:47:15.500 that series of ads reduced smoking in Florida. And then very soon after all 50 States joined a

00:47:22.080 settlement against tobacco companies. And then Bogusky's group was hired to come up with

00:47:27.100 another round of ads that kind of funny in the second round, they made a new rule that they

00:47:32.360 couldn't attack the executives personally because his ads were too effective. So instead, Bogusky

00:47:38.140 created ads where the teenagers would flood the streets around a tobacco company's high-rise

00:47:43.460 building without showing the faces of the executives. And they would yell into megaphones.

00:47:49.420 They would organize demonstrations, basically rebelling against the tobacco companies. But the ads

00:47:56.420 never say smoking causes cancer or you shouldn't smoke. They never tell you what to do at all,

00:48:01.640 but they do imply if you want to join a large group of young people, just like you who are choosing of

00:48:07.460 their own free will to stand up for their autonomy and freedom against injustice, then one way for you

00:48:12.800 to do that is to not smoke. And what they found over time was that smoking went from 20 or 30%,

00:48:21.000 depending on the analyses to less than 6%, sometimes down to 3% within a few years.

00:48:27.460 And it is that the truth television ads, the anti-smoking ads from the early 2000s are considered

00:48:32.920 the most successful public health campaign ever in the history of the United States,

00:48:37.340 besides the campaign to increase seatbelt use, which now everyone wears a seatbelt in the seventies,

00:48:42.220 nobody did. So basically teen smoking and seatbelts are the kind of the only two successes

00:48:46.440 of the establishment. And the way they did it with smoking was by being counter-cultural,

00:48:52.320 not going with the establishment way of telling young people how to make wise decisions. So they

00:48:58.380 did the opposite of groan-splaining and it really tapped into a young person's drive to be accepted

00:49:03.780 by peers, to make a contribution, to follow a meaningful purpose, all these bigger things.

00:49:09.100 So I think it's a great way to end because it just perfectly encapsulates these themes.

00:49:13.180 And it also is counterintuitive. No one would have thought it. So if one good thing happens from

00:49:18.720 this book, hopefully it's that people stop using the old kind of disrespectful,

00:49:24.360 you know, spiritual cousin of think, don't smoke approach and start using more of the insights that

00:49:30.980 Bogusky and his team developed for the truth campaign.

00:49:34.380 Well, Dave, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book

00:49:37.200 and your work?

00:49:38.500 Yeah, the book is for sale on Amazon. It's called 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People.

00:49:43.020 I run a research institute at UT Austin called the Texas Behavioral Science and Policy Institute.

00:49:48.700 And we have lots of free resources and interventions and papers. And I would love to

00:49:53.620 be in touch with people and hear what they think. And I do reply to emails and I'd be happy to chat

00:49:59.840 with people and share what we have.

00:50:01.780 Fantastic. Well, David Yeager, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:50:04.100 Thanks a lot.

00:50:05.660 My guest today was David Yeager. He's the author of the book,

00:50:07.860 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People. It's available on amazon.com and bookstores

00:50:11.940 everywhere. Check out our show notes at aom.is slash Yeager, where you find links to resources,

00:50:16.580 where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:50:25.380 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website

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The Art of Manliness - August 07, 2024

The Science of Motivating Your Kids (And Any Young Adult)

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