The Art of Manliness - The Science of Swole — How to Grow Your Muscles

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.480 A lot of guys would like to build bigger muscles and they may have heard that in order to do

00:00:15.720 so, they need to activate something called hypertrophy.

00:00:18.700 But what is hypertrophy and how do you achieve it in order to get swole?

00:00:22.500 My guest, bodybuilding and strength coach Paul Carter will unpack what you need to know

00:00:27.040 today on the show.

00:00:27.760 We get into the difference between size and strength, the two big myths around hypertrophy,

00:00:32.900 the right number of sets to do for developing a muscle group, why Paul thinks machines are

00:00:37.020 better than free weights for building bigger muscles and more.

00:00:40.080 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash hypertrophy.

00:00:54.800 All right, Paul Carter, welcome to the show.

00:00:57.760 Thanks, bud.

00:00:58.540 I'm glad to be here finally.

00:01:00.060 Yeah, we've been trying to track you down for a few months.

00:01:01.960 You're a busy man.

00:01:02.860 But you are a bodybuilding and strength coach and you've been in the game for over two decades.

00:01:08.380 I've been reading your stuff on your own website, Lift, Run, Bang, T Nation, Elite FTS for a long

00:01:16.180 time.

00:01:16.560 And you've got an interesting career path because you started off in bodybuilding and then you did

00:01:22.100 professional powerlifting for a decade.

00:01:24.300 And that's where I found you was with your powerlifting stuff.

00:01:27.440 But then you shifted back to bodybuilding.

00:01:30.140 So let's talk about this.

00:01:31.060 Why the initial shift from bodybuilding to powerlifting?

00:01:34.880 What was going on there?

00:01:36.600 Well, first off, I'm glad you actually got that order correct because a lot of people

00:01:40.720 through the past few years, either finding me through social media or those means, have

00:01:46.380 made comments like that I made this shift to create a brand or whatever.

00:01:51.060 When, as you said, anybody who's actually followed me for a very long period of time knows

00:01:55.400 I actually started in bodybuilding, I got started lifting when I was 14 and one of the first guys

00:02:01.980 that I found at that time was Doreen Yates.

00:02:05.900 And, you know, like it's kind of cool because that resurgence of the Mike Minster stuff has

00:02:09.300 is remade a resurgence right now.

00:02:11.420 And that's really popular.

00:02:12.920 I'm glad Mike is getting his due and stuff.

00:02:14.980 But yeah, I went from, from bodybuilding and all of those years where just kind of like what's

00:02:19.280 popular now on quote unquote social media, as far as training, I was already, I'd already

00:02:24.220 gravitated to when I first started training.

00:02:27.000 And then my transition over into powerlifting mainly happened because when I went into the

00:02:34.520 military and I came out and I was actually a computer engineer for like 15 years and I

00:02:39.020 wanted to do something with my lifting and powerlifting, I think was probably the most popular back

00:02:47.140 when I got into it.

00:02:49.080 I don't even remember what years those were, but they would have been around something like

00:02:52.380 maybe 2010 or even quite a bit before that.

00:02:56.560 But I started competing in powerlifting because at the time in my head, I thought that powerlifting

00:03:02.040 was like a little bit more tangible than bodybuilding in a sense that bodybuilding is a very kind of

00:03:06.880 subjective sport.

00:03:08.380 You know, you do your diet, you do your cardio, you slap on some Italian salad dressing on your

00:03:15.160 body and flex for people.

00:03:16.500 And then the judges determine like who's the winner.

00:03:19.200 And at the time I thought, well, powerlifting is a little bit more concise in terms that

00:03:24.140 you're going to go in, you've got to hit depth in your squat, you've got to pause your

00:03:27.160 bench, you've got to lock out your deadlift.

00:03:28.840 I felt like there were some more tangible things that you could say, okay, here's the kind of

00:03:33.940 the achievement side of things and it's more clear cut and dry.

00:03:36.800 That was kind of my thought process at the time.

00:03:38.940 And then I competed naturally in powerlifting for quite a few years.

00:03:43.300 And then when I decided that I'd been natural for a very long time, like 20 years, I decided

00:03:49.120 I was going to go ahead and pretty much felt like I'd maxed out my natural potential and

00:03:53.720 I wanted to see what doing anabolics would do. 1.00

00:03:56.460 And then that was when I started competing in non-tested federations.

00:03:59.940 And then I did that for a while.

00:04:02.780 Then I decided to exit powerlifting.

00:04:05.980 I kind of had a cap on it.

00:04:07.080 I said, when I turned 40, I would get off drugs and get out of powerlifting.

00:04:10.820 And that was what I did.

00:04:12.700 And why the 40 cap was just like, you're just old and you don't want to do that anymore.

00:04:17.300 To me, I just didn't want to be that guy that you see like in powerlifting.

00:04:21.980 And there's still, I think a lot of that going on where it's like dudes are still kind of

00:04:25.200 like quote unquote chasing their glory or like five more pounds on the bar or this or

00:04:31.300 whatever.

00:04:32.000 And I just felt like having a, if I, if I can get, I had goals.

00:04:36.160 I wanted a 700, no belt, no knee wrap squat. 0.94

00:04:39.020 I wanted a 750 deadlift and I wanted a 500 like close grip bitch. 1.00

00:04:44.660 And no, you don't get, there's no special division for having a close grip bench or, 0.52

00:04:49.480 you know, like not wearing a belt or anything that kind of stuff.

00:04:51.840 It was just personal achievements for me.

00:04:53.520 Like, so I kind of decided by the time I was like, well, if I, whatever I hit by the

00:05:00.520 time, that's my, that's my end game was when I get to be 40, I don't, you know, I got kids.

00:05:05.980 I don't want to stay on drugs and I don't want to keep chasing like pounds on the bar.

00:05:10.520 So I was just like, whatever I've got done by then, I'm going to get done.

00:05:13.160 Yeah.

00:05:13.680 I've had that same sort of thing.

00:05:15.180 So I got really into powerlifting starting like eight years ago and made, I really enjoyed

00:05:20.480 it.

00:05:20.560 Cause I like you, I enjoyed the tangibility of it.

00:05:22.400 You're able to see your progress and it was great to have concrete goals.

00:05:26.140 Like, well, I'm going to get a 500 pound deadlift.

00:05:28.500 No, I'm going to get five 50. 0.78

00:05:29.840 But then last year I turned 40 and it's amazing.

00:05:35.020 Like I, it's, it's cliche.

00:05:36.580 People talk about, oh yeah, when you turn 40, things just kind of change.

00:05:39.720 And I'm like, ah, whatever.

00:05:41.040 And it did.

00:05:42.180 I started noticing it took me a little bit longer to recover.

00:05:44.520 And I also stopped enjoying the, the process of chasing numbers.

00:05:50.260 It gave me the chasing numbers cause more frustration than satisfaction.

00:05:54.960 A hundred, a hundred.

00:05:56.000 There, there's something that I learned through those years of doing powerlifting.

00:05:59.380 And that was the arrival fallacy philosophy.

00:06:02.400 And that was that if you think arrival fallacy is the belief that if you achieve something

00:06:07.960 or obtain something, or, you know, there's something in your life that you finally get

00:06:12.600 that you believe is going to give you this, you know, sustainability of happiness that

00:06:18.340 it's going to happen.

00:06:18.980 And, and it does for about three minutes.

00:06:22.220 And then immediately you are like, okay, I could do better.

00:06:26.260 There's more.

00:06:27.160 So it is, it's like a, it's just chasing the dragon.

00:06:30.760 It's a never ending pursuit of, I, of you're trying to get more.

00:06:34.700 And the other thing, cause you're describing exactly what happened to me.

00:06:38.160 I lost my joy for that type of training because so you hit, like I hit a 700 deadlift.

00:06:44.580 Okay.

00:06:45.440 You're really happy for five minutes.

00:06:48.380 And a lot of people out there that are like, you know, kind of in your position say, well,

00:06:52.660 like, you know, I want to hit a 500 or 550.

00:06:54.880 If I was to hit a 700 to be otherworldly.

00:06:56.600 And I'm here to tell you, it's the same feeling each time you cross a PR barrier.

00:07:02.560 So like when you hit that 500 deadlift or 550 and the 600 to 650, the 700, it all feels the

00:07:08.640 same.

00:07:09.180 So you're really happy in the moment.

00:07:11.460 And then you're like, well, I've got to get to 650 or the, you know, people would post

00:07:15.520 that up online.

00:07:16.220 Like they just hit a 700 deadlift on the road to 800.

00:07:19.200 Like there's never any satisfaction in my opinion, that is sustainable from it.

00:07:25.240 And when I got out, when I retired and I decided I wasn't going to compete anymore, it was the

00:07:28.780 happiest I've ever been about my training.

00:07:31.020 Yeah.

00:07:31.180 The other shoe I ran into with the chasing numbers is, yeah, same thing.

00:07:35.240 I remember my last deadlift PR was 615 and you feel happy for like two minutes and then

00:07:41.480 you post it on Instagram and, you know, maybe it lasts a little, a little longer because

00:07:44.780 you're getting the accolades from everybody and then it goes away.

00:07:48.100 And then what you think about is, well, if I'm going to get the next PR, I'm going to

00:07:53.060 have to, it takes more work, significantly more work for just barely any gain.

00:07:58.800 So there's diminishing returns at a certain point.

00:08:00.840 It's like, I don't want to put my body through that.

00:08:02.440 It's just, it's stressful.

00:08:03.800 It's months and months and months of just pounding your body to get five more pounds.

00:08:09.400 All of the things.

00:08:10.080 And the funny thing is, is that the amount of work to go from 300 to 400, not really a

00:08:14.700 big deal.

00:08:15.200 And going from 400 to 500 can be going to 500 to 600, very different going from 600 to

00:08:23.360 700, not, not comparable either.

00:08:26.280 And then going from 700 up to 800, my best boat was 725.

00:08:30.040 So I never got to 750 or 800, but going each, like you said, each of those increments took

00:08:36.120 longer periods at a time.

00:08:38.660 And just for me, the amount of satisfaction each time was actually less.

00:08:43.760 And yeah, that was by the end.

00:08:46.140 I got to that exact point where I was like, I have to put in so much work to add so little.

00:08:53.340 And then it's very, those big swings are, are fleeting.

00:08:57.180 And the other thing was just coming off drugs.

00:08:59.300 I could never do the drugs the other guys were doing because anytime I would try to take

00:09:04.960 bigger doses like them, I felt so bad.

00:09:07.720 And like, I couldn't do a lot of the androgens that they used and stuff like that.

00:09:11.900 And I remember this world record holder I was talking to about it at the time told me, he's

00:09:18.200 like, well, what are you running going into this meet?

00:09:21.040 And when I told him when I was running, he, this was his, his remark.

00:09:24.680 He said, they don't give an award for highest total with lowest dose.

00:09:29.600 And I remember thinking at the time I was like, that's, I'm never going to be great at this

00:09:34.440 because I'm just, I can't do like the gram of trainer week with a gram and a half a test

00:09:39.900 with 300 orals a day.

00:09:42.160 I mean, like that, I just could not do those things.

00:09:43.900 I, anytime I try to push stuff, I felt horrible anxiety.

00:09:47.600 I couldn't sleep.

00:09:48.340 I couldn't, you know, like everything was bad.

00:09:50.220 So I never did the massive amount of drugs that people have to do to really succeed at

00:09:56.880 the highest level of those sports.

00:09:58.680 That's interesting.

00:09:59.800 Okay.

00:10:00.120 So you're back into bodybuilding.

00:10:01.960 You enjoy the process.

00:10:03.060 It seems like that from your videos that you're really enjoying this, but let's talk

00:10:06.500 about that.

00:10:06.780 Cause I think a lot of the reasons that guys lift isn't to pull 600 pounds.

00:10:10.620 They just want to look jacked.

00:10:12.120 They want to get big muscles and muscle hypertrophy is how your muscles get bigger.

00:10:17.180 Before we talk about what happens in muscle hypertrophy, let's talk about the difference

00:10:21.180 between hypertrophy and strength because something my kids brought up when I was into powerlifting,

00:10:27.360 you know, I'd be pulling 600 pounds, you know, squatting, you know, 450 pounds.

00:10:33.580 And my kids would be like, dad, like, how is it that you can like deadlift that much weight,

00:10:38.520 but you don't have big muscles?

00:10:40.300 You don't look like John Cena.

00:10:42.020 That thing is what my son told me.

00:10:43.020 He's like, you don't look like John Cena.

00:10:45.000 Your kids, uh, kids always had the hot takes on this, right?

00:10:48.120 Right.

00:10:48.360 Like, thanks.

00:10:49.180 Thanks, junior.

00:10:49.960 I appreciate you today.

00:10:51.340 And I was like, I had to explain to him, there's a difference between like muscle size and strength.

00:10:55.000 So like, what is the difference between hypertrophy and strength?

00:10:58.260 Like, how is it possible for, you see these guys, these like 180 pound guys pulling 800 pounds.

00:11:03.700 Yeah.

00:11:04.380 What's going on there?

00:11:04.960 So, well, when we talk about the average person and these maximal strength adaptations,

00:11:10.600 they really happen mostly, especially the early parts of them through a lot of neural adaptations.

00:11:16.340 Um, so you have like an increase in what we call like action potentials by the nervous system,

00:11:21.340 which is, well, a lot of people, they understand, they hear this word, it's known as like rate

00:11:25.640 coding.

00:11:26.500 Uh, and then you have through stuff like coordination improvements.

00:11:29.900 So you have a bunch of neural adaptations that happen as you're doing the lift that make

00:11:34.600 you more efficient with the lift that make your nervous system more efficient at basically

00:11:39.320 recruiting all the stuff that's going to be involved in the lift.

00:11:42.160 So the other thing for maximal strength is that there is a loading component for the pattern

00:11:49.960 learning stuff too.

00:11:51.140 So when my goal was to get stronger, but I didn't want to beat my body up in doing so,

00:11:56.220 I would actually do like sub maximal lifting like the squat, but I'd try to be as explosive

00:12:00.480 as possible.

00:12:01.880 So what that kind of does is it trains that pattern, but then you also get maximal motor unit

00:12:07.300 recruitment of everything that's going to be involved in the squat.

00:12:10.280 So you're in essence, you're training kind of the neural components of that, that pattern

00:12:14.760 without having to do the heavier loading, but in order to kind of maximally get the true

00:12:21.280 amount of the motor unit recruitment that you're going to need to maximize your squat

00:12:26.360 strength, you eventually do have to train with heavier loading to get those adaptations

00:12:31.180 from the heavier loading.

00:12:32.940 So the difference in that and hypertrophy is that hypertrophy is going to be the muscular

00:12:41.500 component of the adaptations that are occurring.

00:12:44.540 So with strength, we're looking a lot of neural adaptations, rate coding, motor unit recruitment.

00:12:50.780 We're looking at a lot of different things that are happening because we're getting more

00:12:54.320 efficient at that movement pattern.

00:12:56.640 With hypertrophy, what we're actually looking at are the muscular adaptations that are occurring

00:13:03.100 from mechanical tension.

00:13:05.780 So that's going to be the addition of something called either sarcomeres or myofibrils.

00:13:11.140 So that's essentially the kind of the functional units of protein that actually create contractions

00:13:17.640 and force.

00:13:18.280 So the interesting part kind of between these two things is when you look at the, if you

00:13:24.560 had like a little pyramid and you were creating like, you know, the base of the pyramid and

00:13:28.740 kind of going up through to the very top, the largest amount of strength that you're ever

00:13:33.260 going to have in your training is actually going to come from hypertrophy because what do you

00:13:39.900 think actually is producing the force?

00:13:41.880 And that's basically the actual muscle fibers themselves, right?

00:13:45.320 So that the sarcomeres and the myofibrils and the muscle fibers that actually produce force

00:13:49.640 are going to be where you're going to have your largest potential and your greatest foundation

00:13:54.160 for actually strength expression.

00:13:55.960 So that when you stack all that stuff up, that's kind of where that comes from.

00:14:00.960 So that's kind of the basis of it all is that if you're going to train to maximize hypertrophy,

00:14:09.340 you're really talking about training with a certain degree of proximity to failure to create

00:14:14.660 mechanical tension, you're talking about a specific amount of like hard sets close to failure

00:14:21.640 or to failure in order to kind of get enough of those stimulating repetitions within the

00:14:27.400 training session to create the need for those adaptations.

00:14:31.140 Whereas with strength, it's not quite as important to train to failure.

00:14:36.000 It's kind of more important to become very efficient at the motor patterns and become very efficient

00:14:41.180 at the movements themselves.

00:14:42.240 So there's some things that separate those two approaches.

00:14:45.620 Okay.

00:14:45.880 So that makes sense.

00:14:46.900 So hypertrophy, you're actually adding muscle tissue to your body.

00:14:51.000 With strength, I think Pavel, that guy, he says like strength is a skill.

00:14:55.140 So you're basically, you're training the muscle tissue you have to contract and express force

00:15:00.960 in an efficient manner.

00:15:01.960 Yeah, so that will be, like I said, the neural adaptations that are incurred from that will

00:15:08.700 happen because there is a degree that we become more efficient.

00:15:14.300 Like I said, that rate coding is that that's firing those action potentials off for those

00:15:18.960 particular movement patterns.

00:15:20.440 One of the things that I find pretty interesting, I'll give you a really kind of layman's example

00:15:25.780 of this, if you put up a little basket in the corner and you had a bunch of wadded up like

00:15:31.520 paper balls and you start trying to throw, you know, like, like a basketball, like throw

00:15:37.000 those paper balls into the basket.

00:15:39.820 At first you might be really off, but every time you throw it, you probably get a little

00:15:43.700 closer and then better and better, better eventually.

00:15:45.880 And you're literally just training those motor patterns for how much force you have to apply,

00:15:50.980 you know, like the angle that you have to release it and all kinds of stuff that's going on in

00:15:54.620 your brain that you don't even think about.

00:15:57.040 Every time that you go in to the gym and you do a workout, a lot of people used to think

00:16:03.040 that those neural adaptations, it took like weeks or months for them to happen.

00:16:06.920 They literally happen rep to rep to rep to rep.

00:16:09.960 So anything that you do, the neural adaptations actually happen fairly quickly.

00:16:14.660 And that's the reason why you see these massive run-ups in strength for beginners, right?

00:16:18.040 Like a beginner comes in and over from the time they start to six months later, their

00:16:21.560 strength improvement is like through the roof and then it slows down over time.

00:16:25.540 So the neural adaptations that, as you said from Pavel, it's like, it's a, something that

00:16:32.360 your brain learns.

00:16:33.560 So here's these movement patterns.

00:16:34.600 I want to become more efficient with it.

00:16:36.280 So what are the muscular adaptations that I need to create in order to become more efficient

00:16:42.160 at this?

00:16:43.360 And then what are the neural adaptations that I need to create to become more efficient at

00:16:47.640 this?

00:16:47.780 So it's really kind of an efficiency process.

00:16:50.580 Whereas with muscular adaptations and we're actually adding contractile units to produce

00:16:56.140 force, that is a completely different process.

00:17:00.440 Okay.

00:17:00.480 So you can be strong, but not have that much hypertrophy because you've gotten strong more

00:17:06.340 through neural adaptations rather than gaining muscle tissue.

00:17:10.440 So this is why someone can deadlift 600 pounds and not look like John Cena.

00:17:15.980 Like they're not going to be huge.

00:17:17.080 But then you can also have hypertrophy and not be super strong.

00:17:21.640 I mean, you're going to be strong.

00:17:22.900 I think there's, there's impression, there's this impression out there that bodybuilders

00:17:26.020 look ripped, but they're not actually strong.

00:17:28.580 They are strong, you know, from adding that muscle tissue, but they may not be able to deadlift

00:17:33.880 600 pounds or squat 500 pounds because they haven't been training those particular lifts and developing

00:17:39.880 the muscular efficiency for them.

00:17:42.540 Okay.

00:17:42.660 So with that understanding, let's dig more into the process of muscular hypertrophy.

00:17:47.340 And you talk a lot about the myths that are out there about hypertrophy.

00:17:50.800 What are the biggest ones that you see?

00:17:52.400 I think over the past decade, the one, well, there's a multitude of ones.

00:17:58.120 And I think that the two common ones that still either come up or have come up the most was the

00:18:02.820 whole like volume is a driver for hypertrophy or volume is the driver for hypertrophy, which

00:18:08.440 is clearly not true.

00:18:09.960 Um, or not, it's definitely not true in the context that it's presented.

00:18:14.520 And then the, the other one that comes to still comes up quite often, which I, every time that

00:18:18.400 I debunk it, the amount of engagement gets crazy.

00:18:21.880 It's the fact that muscle is, is torn down and built back bigger.

00:18:24.580 And that's how you end up with bigger muscles.

00:18:26.040 Neither of those two things are true.

00:18:29.100 So, I mean, there's a whole long list of myths that still exist and permeate throughout the

00:18:34.580 social media landscape or through even throughout the educational landscape, which is pretty

00:18:39.600 wild because there's people that come out of school now and they haven't updated textbooks.

00:18:45.000 They haven't updated relevant information and they will just spout off stuff they learned

00:18:50.220 from their professor who has never opened a new study or textbook since like 1995.

00:18:54.880 So there's a multitude of myths that still occur and run around.

00:18:58.440 I try to do a good job of helping people to learn past that.

00:19:02.440 And some people will be like, just go to the gym and lift weights. 0.83

00:19:04.440 I'm like, if you just want to be that lunkhead, meathead, like mentality guy, that's cool.

00:19:09.220 But a lot of us are actually interested in the physiology and the biomechanics of how 0.62

00:19:14.360 all this stuff works.

00:19:15.280 So that's kind of the people that I'm trying to give this information to.

00:19:19.260 Well, where do those myths come from?

00:19:20.420 Like the hypertrophy?

00:19:21.240 I remember hearing that.

00:19:22.400 It's like, well, to train for strength, you train to like the three to five rep max with

00:19:26.780 heavy load.

00:19:27.580 For hypertrophy, it's higher volume, lighter load.

00:19:30.680 Like where did that even come from?

00:19:32.080 Um, so a lot of that stuff came back to, there used to be the one myth, for example, that

00:19:38.140 one comes back to a lot of it was fiber type stuff, right?

00:19:41.940 So before people really understood the size principle and the force velocity relationship

00:19:47.000 and those kinds of things and how they tie into the addition of new myofibrils for hypertrophy.

00:19:52.620 A lot of that tied in, they say like, oh, well, this creates explosive strength and this

00:19:57.720 creates maximal strength and this creates strength endurance.

00:20:00.580 And this does all this stuff now to be slightly nuanced.

00:20:05.800 If you're doing higher rep stuff, there are some endurance adaptations that you'll get

00:20:09.560 that you won't get as much from lower repetitions.

00:20:13.360 However, when we're just speaking about the hypertrophy scale and just adding muscle tissue,

00:20:18.000 the mechanisms that create muscle growth are the same regardless of the rep ranges.

00:20:24.200 If we're working at rep ranges, anywhere from about four to five reps, all the way up

00:20:27.440 to 25 to 30 reps.

00:20:28.960 That's kind of the range that the adaptations occur in.

00:20:31.940 And they're essentially similar throughout that entire range because the muscle physiology

00:20:37.820 mechanisms that cause hypertrophy are the same regardless.

00:20:41.760 The muscle damage stuff and the muscles are torn down and grow back bigger.

00:20:46.060 That goes all the way back to around 91.

00:20:48.040 And all of that stuff was consistently disproven throughout any of the research that looked

00:20:54.420 at actual muscle damage and how it needed to be attenuated in order for the same cellular

00:21:00.660 processes to cause muscle tissue to accumulate.

00:21:04.040 So the idea of people would say, well, it's torn down and built back bigger.

00:21:09.240 There's so many layers that that wouldn't even make sense.

00:21:11.520 And we can also look at the fact that the repair process for damaged tissue is the exact same

00:21:16.800 as you'll see from muscle damage, but actual like contusions and stuff like that.

00:21:20.780 But you don't add muscle.

00:21:21.800 Like if you go out, if people were just adding muscle from muscle damage, then football players

00:21:26.240 that get muscle contusions or lacerations that happen around that kind of stuff, people

00:21:29.960 be growing muscle out the yin-yang from that kind of stuff, but it doesn't happen.

00:21:33.360 So a lot of those repair processes from a cellular mechanism standpoint are identical, but they

00:21:38.900 don't grow muscle.

00:21:39.880 So the idea that you would tear muscle down, the other thing is, is that when we see muscle

00:21:45.660 damage occur, we're actually looking at it in the research, it tends to occur anywhere

00:21:50.940 from four to six to eight hours after the workout or even, you know, a bit longer, somewhere

00:21:56.580 in the eight hour period, is when those, basically the cellular mechanisms occur that cause the

00:22:05.240 protein degradation at those kind of microscopic levels.

00:22:09.940 So if muscles will be in quote unquote torn down and they were, people say, well, fibers

00:22:14.940 are being torn.

00:22:15.520 If you tear the actual muscle fiber, you're not moving.

00:22:17.620 That's the amount of pain you're being, it would be incredible.

00:22:20.300 But it's not even happening until maybe six to eight hours later.

00:22:24.460 And that is because it's a protein degradation thing from this type of protease.

00:22:30.340 So it's not anything being quote unquote torn or micro tears or stuff like that's occurring

00:22:35.760 in there.

00:22:36.180 It's actually from the protein degradation processes that happen due to muscle damage.

00:22:41.780 When those are occurring, there are a multitude of mechanisms that happen to try to thwart that

00:22:49.380 off.

00:22:49.720 And what we know of that now is something called the repeated bout effect.

00:22:54.140 And we think of that happening through eccentric, a bout of eccentric exercise.

00:22:58.380 So there's a bunch of things that happen to say, I want to protect against future bouts

00:23:02.320 of muscle damage.

00:23:03.640 Now, once those protective processes are in place, what we have seen at the cellular level

00:23:08.940 is that that is when muscle hypertrophy starts to really happen.

00:23:13.120 So we need those protective processes in place.

00:23:15.400 So that way, those cellular mechanisms can actually go towards adding those contractile

00:23:21.460 units.

00:23:22.420 And that's muscle hypertrophy.

00:23:23.640 So really, the fact is, is that if a bunch of muscle damage is happening, you're actually

00:23:28.200 not really adding muscle.

00:23:30.020 And you're just creating the repair or the basically the repair and the remodeling and

00:23:35.560 the protective processes in order that need to be in place before that can happen.

00:23:40.740 So it's the same cellular mechanisms, but it's different outcomes.

00:23:43.700 Okay, so to help listeners understand this difference, if muscle damage does occur during

00:23:50.540 exercise, like when you're doing a bunch of, you know, fatiguing reps and you're feeling

00:23:55.480 that burn, muscle protein synthesis is going to occur, but it's not adding more muscle tissue.

00:24:02.960 It's not hypertrophic.

00:24:04.860 Instead, the muscle protein synthesis is happening to repair and replace the damaged muscle fibers,

00:24:11.960 like myofibrils.

00:24:12.680 So it's not adding fiber, it's just replacing it.

00:24:16.780 And then during that repair process, there's some stuff going on to protect that tissue

00:24:22.000 from future bouts of damage.

00:24:24.640 And then this repair and strengthening process of damaged tissue, it can eventually help with

00:24:30.800 hypertrophy because you're able to train the muscle and achieve mechanical tension.

00:24:36.260 And we're going to talk about what that is here in a second.

00:24:38.560 You're able to do that without damaging the myofibrils.

00:24:41.080 So the process to repair damaged muscle fibers and adding new muscle fibers, they're different.

00:24:46.920 And again, you don't need to experience muscle damage to experience hypertrophy.

00:24:52.080 And what you need is what I just said, you need mechanical tension.

00:24:55.400 So let's talk about that.

00:24:56.620 What is mechanical tension and how does it drive hypertrophy?

00:24:59.920 So mechanical tension, the best way that you can think about it is there's two things that

00:25:05.840 got to happen.

00:25:06.400 You have to have a high degree of motor unit recruitment and you have to have a slowing

00:25:10.160 of contraction velocity.

00:25:11.700 So I'll dumb this down the best that I can.

00:25:13.800 Is if you think about going to failure and let's say you're doing a set of 10 reps and you're

00:25:18.960 not going to make the 11th rep, your repetitions start slowing down towards the end of the set,

00:25:24.280 no matter how hard you're pushing.

00:25:26.180 So during that time, there's a lot of things going on at the, basically the microscopic

00:25:33.140 levels.

00:25:34.320 And that's going to be at the sarcomeres, whereas you're going to have these cross bridging

00:25:37.900 between actin and myosin.

00:25:40.240 And it's like a pulling type force.

00:25:42.840 So as the weight is trying to pull against you, the actual sarcomeres themselves and the 0.99

00:25:49.380 actin and myosin filaments, they are basically trying to, they do this thing called cross bridging

00:25:55.300 where they pull on one another, opposing them.

00:25:57.580 They're creating a high degree of force to oppose that external force.

00:26:01.340 When that happens, that force is detected as tension.

00:26:05.540 And then that is actually converted into the biological process where the adaptations for

00:26:11.440 adding more myofibrils happen.

00:26:14.820 So that way you can produce more force.

00:26:16.180 And that's essentially the hypertrophy process.

00:26:19.740 So I get asked, like, you know, how do you explain mechanical tension?

00:26:24.060 I'm like, it's just, it's simply a pulling force within the muscle fibers.

00:26:27.200 And so if the external force is pulling one way and you're trying to pull the other way,

00:26:31.340 then the muscles are trying to produce a high degree of force.

00:26:34.240 And that's experienced as mechanical tension.

00:26:37.600 Gotcha.

00:26:38.100 Okay.

00:26:38.320 And so, you know, if you're experiencing mechanical tension, if for example, you're doing some

00:26:42.100 bicep curls and you get into that rep where things just start slowing down and it's getting

00:26:46.260 harder to complete the rep, is that mechanical tension?

00:26:49.540 Yep.

00:26:50.000 So mechanical tension exists on the force velocity relationship.

00:26:54.200 And if anybody looks up the force velocity curve, what they'll see is that if you're moving

00:26:59.100 very fast, so let's say if you squat down and you try to jump up to the ceiling and touch

00:27:03.700 the ceiling, there's a high degree of motor in your recruitment, but there's a low degree

00:27:08.660 of force.

00:27:09.620 And a lot of people will say it or like, huh, because they confuse, they think of force as

00:27:14.120 kind of the Newton force, right?

00:27:16.080 Force equals mass times acceleration.

00:27:18.000 But intramuscular force has nothing to do with that.

00:27:21.260 So intramuscular force has everything to do with the amount of cross bridging that is occurring.

00:27:26.500 So when you're actually pushing very hard, like you're saying, doing a set of bicep curls

00:27:31.660 and you're applying a high degree of effort, that's when you're actually getting a high

00:27:35.820 degree of motor in your recruitment and you get a lot of muscle fiber activation.

00:27:39.900 But because of the fact that they're having to produce a lot of force, they're like, oh,

00:27:44.460 that's a lot of tension.

00:27:46.320 So what do I need to do in order to create adaptations for this tension?

00:27:50.720 And that is number one, if it's, again, if it's early in the training session or if it's

00:27:54.920 not, it's a novel exercise or anything like that, there's protective mechanisms to put

00:27:59.340 in place to attenuate that muscle damage.

00:28:02.700 And then from there, as you continue to do that week after week after week, it says, oh,

00:28:06.820 what adaptations can I put in place now?

00:28:08.640 And it says, let me create the ability to produce more force.

00:28:12.720 So that is going to be how your muscle hypertrophy comes.

00:28:16.360 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

00:28:18.060 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

00:28:20.720 And now back to the show.

00:28:24.160 And this, going back to volume doesn't cause hypertrophy.

00:28:27.820 You can experience mechanical tension without doing 10 or 12 reps.

00:28:31.660 It could be three reps, four reps.

00:28:33.760 It's just because if you have a heavier load, heavier weight.

00:28:37.200 Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:38.080 So if you do one set of five to failure and you couldn't do six reps, so it's a five rep

00:28:44.580 max load, then really all five of those reps are going to have a high degree of force.

00:28:50.720 And so those fibers that are active, we're going to experience a high degree of tension.

00:28:55.320 So volume load or volume itself is completely irrelevant to hypertrophy if you're not counting

00:29:04.500 sets that have a specific proximity to failure or they have a certain amount of velocity loss.

00:29:09.760 So if I do, and we've seen this through every study that's ever looked at this.

00:29:15.000 So this is not really like one of those kind of debatable topics.

00:29:18.320 It's like is what's repeatable over and over and over and over and over again is that as

00:29:23.000 we train closer to failure and we have a high degree of simulating repetitions, then that

00:29:29.960 is what's going to cause myofibril protein synthesis to be elevated.

00:29:33.480 And that's kind of the biological, the physiological mechanism that creates the ability that adds

00:29:39.220 those new myofibrils.

00:29:40.920 If we train very far away from failure, we can do all the volume in the world that we

00:29:45.280 want to, but those fibers will not experience that high degree of tension.

00:29:50.260 They won't produce a lot of force.

00:29:51.600 So they don't actually grow.

00:29:53.340 They're not giving a reason to grow.

00:29:54.820 So the idea that volume was king, because I've heard guys say that volume is king, volume

00:30:02.220 drives hypertrophy.

00:30:03.180 I'm like, no, not really.

00:30:05.740 It's now I need to quantify that because every set you do is going to have a degree of, let's

00:30:14.300 say we're talking about sets to failure or very close to failure.

00:30:17.500 Every set that you do has a certain number of repetitions in it, like we just talked about,

00:30:22.800 that are stimulating repetitions that go towards creating that muscle growth process.

00:30:28.140 They also come with a certain amount of fatigue.

00:30:30.400 So there's a nonlinear relationship with volume and hypertrophy to where one set really causes

00:30:37.340 this enormous response.

00:30:40.700 One set to failure causes an enormous response to create muscle hypertrophy.

00:30:45.540 The second set causes a nice response too, but comparatively, it's much smaller than the

00:30:52.100 first set because there's also been a degree of fatigue that's been created from that first

00:30:57.260 set.

00:30:57.800 The third set also causes a nice response.

00:31:02.320 However, again, comparatively, it's smaller, a lot smaller than the first set.

00:31:07.460 So from the first set, you have to do, in order to double the degree of stimulus that you're

00:31:13.180 going to get from that first set, you have to do five more sets.

00:31:16.200 So it's a nonlinear relationship.

00:31:17.980 So it's not like if you were thinking in hypertrophy and something as basic like units, say like

00:31:22.200 one set causes one unit of hypertrophy units, two sets cause two units, and three sets cause

00:31:26.940 three units.

00:31:27.680 It doesn't really work that way.

00:31:29.260 There's a nonlinear relationship.

00:31:32.140 And in all the research that's kind of looked at how volume equates off to hypertrophic adaptations,

00:31:40.000 it's that nonlinear relationship to where it goes up, kind of up, and then it essentially

00:31:45.760 levels off so that anything that you're doing extra after that either doesn't add anything

00:31:51.040 to what you're doing or potentially even causes a regression.

00:31:54.580 Okay.

00:31:54.720 And this is where this idea of Mike Metzner, his, you know, heavy duty training, like you

00:31:58.520 train one to two sets really hard and that's all you do.

00:32:04.300 Yeah.

00:32:04.840 And I mean, I think depending on how people have actually counted their sets over the years,

00:32:11.440 they may have already been training like that anyway, or may not have.

00:32:15.220 So all depending on what you're counting as a quote unquote set.

00:32:20.340 So if you go in and you do like four sets of 12, but each set you're having to add weight

00:32:24.960 and the only ones you even got close to failure on was the last set.

00:32:27.440 Did you do four sets or did you do one set?

00:32:29.640 In my opinion, you did one set.

00:32:31.120 Right.

00:32:31.560 Okay.

00:32:31.820 So mechanical tension, you know, it's mechanical tension if you're getting close to failure.

00:32:35.920 It doesn't have to be to failure.

00:32:37.700 I think you've highlighted the research.

00:32:39.020 It has to be near failure.

00:32:39.980 So, yeah, I think that's something that people kind of, they don't, so the, we had the meta

00:32:48.480 analysis that came out a while back and people were saying that hypertrophy is the same if

00:32:53.260 you're training three RIR to train two failure.

00:32:56.000 And I'm like, okay, that all of that stuff needs really in-depth nuance.

00:33:02.160 So in no world is three RIR the same as training two failure or one RIR.

00:33:08.220 Because it's just for our listeners who don't know, like three IR, that's like your three

00:33:12.720 reps away.

00:33:13.420 Three reps in reserve.

00:33:14.040 Yeah, three reps in reserve.

00:33:15.000 So it's when you reach the end of the set, you could have done three more reps.

00:33:18.420 So I heard that said by some people and I was like, yeah, that's not even what the research

00:33:23.460 is showing.

00:33:24.520 It still shows there does appear to be a somewhat linear relationship with training two failure

00:33:29.580 and hypertrophy.

00:33:30.360 When the meta regression came out and there was, it was a much better overall look, what

00:33:36.940 they found was what I'd already felt like, what really we saw in the research is, and

00:33:41.440 that is if you're using heavier loading, it's probably not as important to actually get to

00:33:45.800 failure.

00:33:46.480 But if you're using lighter loading, it's probably a bit more important to actually try

00:33:51.120 to get to task failure than with heavier loading.

00:33:54.660 With heavier loading, you're going to have that full motor unit recruitment from the very

00:33:58.340 first rep, but I'm talking somewhere around 86 to 88% of one rep max, and that's going

00:34:03.360 to limit you to somewhere around five or six reps.

00:34:05.880 But that's where you're going to have essentially a set that's done where all of those repetitions

00:34:11.000 are going to be stimulating and have a high degree of mechanical tension.

00:34:14.220 Whereas if you're using lighter loading and both the meta analysis and the regression

00:34:19.260 found this exact same thing, and I think this was the part that most people missed out

00:34:23.240 on, they couldn't explain in the first one, the meta analysis, why that higher

00:34:28.140 higher reps or light loading with higher reps needed failure to kind of achieve that same

00:34:33.560 hypertrophy stimulus.

00:34:35.400 Whereas in the second one, they found the same thing, but they didn't, neither one explained

00:34:40.420 it.

00:34:40.600 So the whole reason is it's just motor unit recruitment.

00:34:42.760 So when you're doing higher reps, there's a lot of things that are happening on your way

00:34:46.800 to getting to failure.

00:34:48.020 So if you're doing 15 reps to failure, if you think about it, those first 10 reps or

00:34:54.020 even 12 reps are just there to create fatigue feedback to say, this feels really painful.

00:35:01.740 This is really difficult.

00:35:02.860 And the repetition that you do creates a degree of fatigue.

00:35:05.820 They're not creating really a degree of stimulus.

00:35:08.800 So they're there to create fatigue.

00:35:10.720 So by the time that you're getting towards the end of it, you have to really push to

00:35:15.920 failure in order to get full motor unit recruitment or get maximal motor, you don't ever get full,

00:35:21.600 but to get maximal motor unit recruitment as comparatively as you do with the heavier

00:35:24.760 sets, because you have those negative feedback mechanisms in place and that afferent feedback

00:35:31.620 and those negative feedback mechanisms actually don't really allow you to get as much motor unit

00:35:37.120 recruitment because they don't exist when you're doing heavier loading, right?

00:35:39.440 So you know this, if you go in and you do like a three rep max or five rep max, there's

00:35:45.020 nothing fatiguing in there.

00:35:46.200 There's no burning sensation.

00:35:47.800 There's no like fatigue.

00:35:49.060 There's nothing in those that create fatigue as you're getting.

00:35:52.760 If you're only going to, if you're doing a deadlift with a five rep max and you can't

00:35:56.480 do six reps, you can't do the five rep max because you're just not producing, you can't

00:36:01.340 produce any more force.

00:36:02.120 When you're doing a set of 15, there's a lot of negative feedback sensations that happen

00:36:09.760 on the way to that 15th rep that essentially create kind of an interference effect.

00:36:14.700 So it's more important with that lighter loading that you get to failure than with the heavier

00:36:19.440 loading.

00:36:19.840 So I think that's why some people end up misinterpreting that as, oh, it's perfectly okay to do three

00:36:27.220 RIR.

00:36:27.700 I'm like, no, it's not.

00:36:29.060 Three RIR at a set of 15 reps is not the same as getting to 15 reps and hitting task failure.

00:36:36.780 And they really showed that in that research.

00:36:39.160 So getting to failure is probably more important if you're going to do something like 10, 12,

00:36:44.380 15 reps, actually getting to task failure than if you're doing say like five or six reps.

00:36:48.780 With a heavier load.

00:36:51.460 Okay.

00:36:51.660 So knowing that mechanical tension is what drives hypertrophy, mechanical tension is when

00:36:56.280 you're getting close to failure or failure.

00:36:58.780 How do you program for mechanical tension?

00:37:01.960 Like how do you, so one thing people know is that you have to progressively overload to

00:37:05.440 get stronger.

00:37:06.460 What does progressive overload look like in a hypertrophy program with this mechanical tension

00:37:12.540 idea?

00:37:13.140 So progressive overload is like, it's another myth one, right?

00:37:19.200 Like the program, people would say forever.

00:37:20.660 Progressive overload is adding more sets or doing more exercises or whatever.

00:37:24.880 And that that's consistently been misconstrued.

00:37:27.140 So progressive overload is how we measure if a program is working.

00:37:33.160 So if I did 200 pounds for eight reps last week, can I do 200 pounds for nine or 10 reps

00:37:39.400 this week?

00:37:39.900 So in my programs, how I set this up is people after their warmups will do one or two sets

00:37:46.320 to failure or very close to failure for that exercise.

00:37:50.440 And then we have a certain number of what we call like hard sets that have effective reps in

00:37:56.380 them within the session.

00:37:57.860 So as long as somebody is able to add reps or they can add load or, or even potentially

00:38:04.440 both, that's what we see as progressive overload.

00:38:07.700 And what that means is that it's feedback that these adaptations that we have talked about,

00:38:11.920 whether they're neural or muscular are occurring within the training program.

00:38:15.400 So yeah, the way I've been doing that, so I've been kind of shifting to more of a

00:38:18.700 hypertrophy program, I'll have a load and then I'll start at maybe eight and then I'll

00:38:24.940 work up to 12.

00:38:26.220 And once I get to 12, I'll bump the weight up and then go back down to eight.

00:38:30.780 And that's how I've been doing it.

00:38:31.900 That's been working for me.

00:38:33.120 I, that was, that was, I actually, that was the exact method I used when I was younger.

00:38:39.080 What's, what's really weird to me at times is I figured out stuff through when I was like

00:38:44.960 a kid, like a teenager, I figured out a lot of these things just from what I felt like

00:38:50.560 was just good critical thinking and just made sense.

00:38:53.860 And then stuff I read in the magazines.

00:38:55.420 So that was the method I used forever was I figured if I could take a weight that I could

00:39:02.080 only get maybe seven or eight reps with, and I could get to where I was doing 10 or 12

00:39:05.500 reps with it, I would be bigger.

00:39:06.980 That was the basis of what I figured out.

00:39:09.580 And it's a hundred percent true.

00:39:11.660 Like you can get into the deepness of all the physiological mechanisms and all that stuff.

00:39:16.380 But at the end of the day, if I can take a weight that I was doing eight reps with and

00:39:21.140 I get to 12 and then I add load to something that brings me back to eight.

00:39:24.900 And I just keep repeating that process over years and years and years of doing that.

00:39:29.120 That's how you're going to get larger.

00:39:30.560 It's really that simple.

00:39:31.820 Right.

00:39:32.400 And that is like the, now you can do that with say, I'm going to go from six, six reps to

00:39:37.540 10 reps or six reps to eight reps or eight reps, 12 reps, just somewhere within that range where

00:39:42.400 you just have some way of progressively overloading those motions at there.

00:39:47.260 You don't have any other, any other outcome that's going to happen other than you're going

00:39:51.220 to get larger.

00:39:52.100 And I think that it's weird to me that so many people overthink this stuff and just miss

00:39:59.300 the forest for the trees.

00:40:01.300 Right.

00:40:01.720 Like that's right there in front of you.

00:40:02.860 Like if you can, how I remember when I figured this one out, it was the hundred pound dumbbells

00:40:09.680 was the largest dumbbells that we had in, in the gym I was in at the time.

00:40:13.740 I was probably, I think I was 15 and I was doing the hundreds for like eight.

00:40:21.000 And I remember thinking if I could get those to 12, my chest would be bigger.

00:40:25.980 That was my whole process.

00:40:28.100 That was it.

00:40:29.320 Like that was the whole process.

00:40:30.860 So from there, I just did that with like every, every girl was like, well, I guess I 0.95

00:40:34.140 just do that with everything.

00:40:35.120 So I'm doing this for eight reps and I can get that weight to 12 reps, then I'll be bigger.

00:40:40.500 And then when I'd get to 12 reps, I'd add weight.

00:40:43.880 So that's why tracking your workouts is important.

00:40:45.520 Cause you can see, well, I did this last week.

00:40:47.880 I'm going to progressively overload by either adding a rep or adding weight.

00:40:51.820 I'm curious, how many sets should you do?

00:40:54.540 So you mentioned there's a non-linear connection between hypertrophy and sets.

00:40:59.500 So how do you know when to stop?

00:41:00.860 Is it just one set, two sets, three sets?

00:41:03.840 Let's say you got programmed bicep curls for the day.

00:41:06.940 Right.

00:41:07.240 How many sets should you do of a bicep curl in that workout? 0.51

00:41:10.160 Well, it depends on how many bicep exercises that we're doing.

00:41:13.920 It depends on the entire structure of the program.

00:41:16.720 So sometimes it's just one set, but then it might be two or three different curl exercises

00:41:22.980 or two or three different forearm flexor exercises, or it could be just two sets of curls.

00:41:30.300 So a lot of people will be like, well, that doesn't meet the whatever.

00:41:35.280 My philosophy, we just talked about progressive overload.

00:41:39.200 My philosophy has never been, let me do the maximum amount of volume that I can recover

00:41:44.420 from.

00:41:44.800 I think that is a really backwards mentality.

00:41:47.420 I think the idea about how you should approach training is how do I get the maximum amount

00:41:52.880 of progressive overload with the least amount of volume?

00:41:58.220 Gotcha.

00:41:59.060 Okay.

00:41:59.640 So if, let's say maybe you have an arms program, like you're doing arms day.

00:42:03.880 If you're doing two bicep exercises, you maybe just have to do one to two sets of each of

00:42:10.140 those and that's it?

00:42:11.900 So if I literally had like an arm day, and that's what I said, kind of like the, if you'd

00:42:16.300 have to be talking like the whole program.

00:42:18.000 But if you had like an arm day, it might be something as simple as three tricep exercises

00:42:23.280 and three bicep exercises.

00:42:24.620 But they would each just get like one, one set to failure.

00:42:29.060 Okay.

00:42:29.880 I can't ever see myself doing like six sets for triceps or biceps.

00:42:34.260 That's, I, in all of the research that we've had, generally the cap overall, I'm talking

00:42:41.300 about for everybody, has been eight sets for a muscle group in this session.

00:42:44.880 Now that's really pushing the upper limit.

00:42:46.920 So somebody's going to listen to this and go, Paul said eight sets.

00:42:49.400 I'm not saying eight effing sets.

00:42:51.740 I'm saying for the absolute highest on the outlier scale of we've seen people of using

00:42:58.840 volume with long rest periods, it's around eight sets.

00:43:02.040 Six sets looks like it's the cap for the majority of people before the point of diminishing returns

00:43:06.920 kicks in.

00:43:07.920 So I can't see myself even doing six sets for biceps and workout.

00:43:12.820 I don't think, and a lot of people will go, why such low volume?

00:43:15.660 That's not low volume.

00:43:16.740 That's the other argument that comes up that really grinds my gears.

00:43:20.640 I'm like, that's not low volume.

00:43:22.180 If you're taking longer rest periods, that's on the upper end of the volume scale.

00:43:26.880 So you have to do, when you're taking the rest periods thing, cleared up a lot of the

00:43:31.900 confusion over the years.

00:43:33.120 So if you take a short rest period, you basically have to do twice as much volume to get the

00:43:36.860 same hypertrophy stimulus due to the amount of the fatigue that's accumulated.

00:43:40.960 So if you're doing an arm day and you're doing three or four good sets for biceps, that's

00:43:47.180 going to be plenty.

00:43:47.900 If you're doing three or four good sets for triceps, that's going to be plenty because

00:43:51.380 you're still going to have other days in the week, right, where you're doing some pulling

00:43:54.360 and pushing and there'll be a certain amount of stimulus that they'll still get from that

00:43:58.420 stuff.

00:43:59.060 All right.

00:43:59.400 I think the takeaway there is you don't have to spend two hours in the gym to get results.

00:44:02.940 I think that's another myth.

00:44:04.240 I had no point have I ever in 30, I've literally been training 34 years.

00:44:10.600 Have I ever spent more than like an hour in the gym?

00:44:13.560 This, this belief that I think for years or when I was in powerlifting and I don't know

00:44:18.200 how much you know about this, but there was definitely a long period of time.

00:44:21.620 I think it was like when the Kelly start stuff was popular.

00:44:24.220 The whole supple leopard thing was going on was people would go in and spend half an hour

00:44:29.740 doing warmups and then mobility drills and stuff like that.

00:44:33.880 I've never done that stuff.

00:44:35.260 I go in, people ask, how do you warm up?

00:44:37.180 I'm like, I walk in, I find the first exercise that I'm doing and I do like eight to 10 reps

00:44:41.600 on it.

00:44:42.760 That's, that's how I like, I don't walk on the treadmill and I don't like do a bunch

00:44:47.080 of stretching or a bunch of mobility work or stuff like that.

00:44:49.900 I walk in, whatever exercise I'm doing first, I find that machine and then I put a load on

00:44:54.480 and I can do maybe eight reps with it.

00:44:56.280 And that's how I get started.

00:44:57.000 Speaking of programming, there's all different ways you could skin this cat, but just like

00:45:02.020 for a starter hypertrophy program, what do you typically recommend?

00:45:06.140 Do you recommend doing upper, lower, body parts?

00:45:09.480 How do you like to do it for beginners?

00:45:12.040 So I actually, I am starting a brand new, it's a beginner program.

00:45:17.340 It's a tier one and a tier two based program under my train hero groups.

00:45:22.260 And we'll be starting that next month.

00:45:24.660 And so the first way I would actually start that out is something as simple as three days

00:45:30.460 a week, full body, because the beginners are still going to grow great off that kind of

00:45:34.640 stuff.

00:45:35.220 And you don't need a massive amount of variety.

00:45:38.720 And then to split it up from there would be more like a tier two after maybe six months

00:45:43.900 where you go to like an upper, lower type split.

00:45:46.120 And you start incorporating a few new exercises than you, what you were doing.

00:45:51.660 And for beginners, that's going to be as much as you're really going to need.

00:45:55.280 You don't need a vast array of trying to hit iliac lats and, you know, some like the

00:46:02.000 causal division of the pecs and all that kind of stuff.

00:46:04.460 Beginners don't need that kind of stuff.

00:46:05.740 They're going to grow a really nice foundational level of muscle mass from using, you know,

00:46:12.580 a select number of motions within the program.

00:46:15.720 And that doesn't have to be squat, bench, deadlift.

00:46:17.920 Like that's we, Chris and I just did the exercise essential books and we do not have

00:46:22.160 squat, bench, and deadlift in there anywhere.

00:46:24.420 Well, speaking of exercise selection, something that you talk a lot about on your socials is

00:46:29.320 the benefits of machines.

00:46:31.640 And for a while, I think a lot of people said, you know, oh, you know, machines aren't good.

00:46:35.860 You need to use free weights.

00:46:37.200 That's the way to go.

00:46:38.240 But you argue that free weights have their limitations when it comes to hypertrophy.

00:46:42.860 What's going on there with the free weights versus machines?

00:46:47.580 Well, I'm always going to choose a more stable exercise over a less stable exercise.

00:46:53.800 Now over time, as we talked about forward strength stuff, you develop the coordination and stuff.

00:46:59.320 By, you know, that you get, I mean, you'll develop that ability to be more stable with an unstable

00:47:05.740 exercise, but you're still always going to have that stability component challenge with

00:47:12.120 a less stable exercise.

00:47:14.160 So if you think about it, if you're always going to have a little bit higher of basically

00:47:19.960 agonist activation, the prime mover that you're using in a motion with a stable exercise, then

00:47:27.520 it's always going to be slightly better than using a less stable exercise because I'm just

00:47:32.820 removing a component that is a limiter component for that muscle group.

00:47:37.780 So if I'm doing dumbbell, why would I do a dumbbell bench press when I can do a machine

00:47:41.080 bench press and load the pecs better and not worry about stabilizing the dumbbells?

00:47:45.180 To me, that's a very simple way to kind of explain that.

00:47:49.520 So if I'm not trying to, you know, develop a, like to me, like after all these years,

00:47:55.460 that's one of the things I look back now and go, can you use dumbbells and grow muscle?

00:48:00.140 A hundred percent.

00:48:01.200 Absolutely.

00:48:01.760 And I, that always gets taken way out of it.

00:48:03.540 As soon as you say on social media, I think a machine press for the chest is, is better

00:48:08.660 than like a dumbbell press.

00:48:10.860 Somebody will go, so you're saying dumbbells are worthless.

00:48:13.180 I'm like, yeah, that's totally what I said.

00:48:14.960 I a hundred percent said they're worthless.

00:48:16.940 No, I just said, I think this is probably a better option because I'm removing that stability

00:48:22.200 and coordination component.

00:48:23.680 So if I don't need that, I'm not trying to develop that.

00:48:26.240 And I'm actually just trying to load my pecs.

00:48:28.160 Why would I choose a motion that's less stable?

00:48:31.200 I can see this with the squat particularly.

00:48:32.900 That's, that's, I never liked the squat.

00:48:35.380 I still don't like the squat because it's a high skill.

00:48:38.860 It's a high skilled lift.

00:48:40.080 Cause you just, you're thinking about so many things like, all right, I'm going down.

00:48:42.940 I don't think that people think about the fact, I don't care what anybody says.

00:48:48.140 One of the things I think why you need so many warmup sets for your squat is for that

00:48:52.520 reason.

00:48:52.860 I think it's a much higher skill lift than people give it credit for.

00:48:56.500 Don't give it credit for whichever way you'd like to phrase that.

00:48:59.040 I do agree.

00:49:00.360 I like when I was squatting, it was the one motion.

00:49:03.840 Like when you're bench pressing, you go in, you set up, however you're bench pressing,

00:49:08.040 you've probably got it nailed down.

00:49:09.480 And getting set up and doing your warmups and then getting to a top sub-inch press doesn't

00:49:13.000 take a whole lot of warmup sets.

00:49:15.160 Doesn't take a whole lot of thought once you kind of get your motion down.

00:49:17.720 But I squatted for decades and decades and I still had plenty of days where going in

00:49:22.940 squatting would feel off or weird or not quite perfect.

00:49:25.860 So you probably had those, right?

00:49:27.540 Yeah.

00:49:27.820 And I think it's actually a far more coordinated exercise than people want to talk about.

00:49:33.140 And one of the things you can put somebody on a hack squat and get their feet in the

00:49:37.280 right place, they can go in and repeat that every single time.

00:49:39.800 And it feels the same every single time because you've removed all of those coordination

00:49:43.700 and stability problems with the squat.

00:49:46.260 So why would I choose a squat if I'm trying to load my quads when I can get on a hack

00:49:49.820 squat and know exactly where I need to put my feet in the same position every time and

00:49:53.840 get the same kind of output every time?

00:49:55.860 Why would I choose something different or a pendulum or a leg press or whatever, right?

00:50:00.240 So I've removed that whole coordination component.

00:50:03.540 And now I'm like, oh, I just want to load that tissue.

00:50:05.720 So now if I'm using a very highly stable exercise, I can just load that tissue and get in almost

00:50:10.260 like perfect position every time with a lot of thought going into it.

00:50:13.420 Okay.

00:50:13.540 So yeah, if you're looking at hypertrophy, machines are going to be the way to go because

00:50:16.820 of the stability aspect.

00:50:18.720 And you're able to focus on the mechanical tension instead of thinking about, oh my gosh,

00:50:23.340 I'm shifting here to the right.

00:50:25.000 I need to like, you don't have to worry about that.

00:50:27.160 How many times?

00:50:27.820 Yeah.

00:50:28.160 I think that's a good discussion, right?

00:50:30.220 Because that's a really great one.

00:50:31.640 I haven't squatting forever, but you're bringing up a lot of stuff I remember thinking about.

00:50:34.160 You go in on that squat day and then for whatever reason, like, why did I shift to the left there?

00:50:39.080 Why did I, you know, why is this feeling off?

00:50:41.400 Why is this wonky and that kind of stuff?

00:50:43.440 Well, if I'm just trying to load my quads, why am I worried about all that stuff?

00:50:46.760 You know what I mean?

00:50:47.340 Like if I have a pendulum or I have a hack squat that's right there, or even a Smith machine

00:50:51.480 squat, I think a Smith machine squat is even better because in a Smith machine squat,

00:50:55.860 you can get set up in the exact same position over and over and over again.

00:50:59.400 Like you're not having to think about it.

00:51:01.260 In a leg press, if you're exactly where your feet need to be, you can get set up there

00:51:04.540 over and over and over again.

00:51:05.720 You don't have any of these things.

00:51:07.680 Now, something could feel off or wonky that day because of overuse, or maybe you did something

00:51:12.820 the previous day, or you pulled something in a workout.

00:51:15.000 But I'm saying from the aspect of doing the motion, I think that the squat is really far

00:51:19.720 down on the list for being good for hypertrophy.

00:51:23.040 And, but that's not to say, like, let's say a guy's listening, he has a garage gym and he

00:51:26.020 wants to do hypertrophy.

00:51:26.960 It's like, you can still squat and you can do it for hypertrophy.

00:51:30.400 It's just, you know, it would be easier if you had a hack squat machine or a leg press.

00:51:34.780 Oh, totally.

00:51:35.220 Like, I think people conflate that, right?

00:51:37.280 With me, again, saying something's useless, worthless, whatever.

00:51:40.340 I'm like, I'm not saying that.

00:51:41.460 I'm saying if I have a list of druthers, then, and I have a long list and people say you can

00:51:47.420 pick from whatever you want to, the actual, like a barbell squat is pretty low down the list.

00:51:53.380 So, I mean, it'd be, it'd be like, you know, a pendulum squat, a good hack squat, a Smith

00:51:58.880 machine squat, a leg press.

00:52:01.940 And, you know, then you had to get into something like a safety bar, heel elevated squat.

00:52:06.200 Now we're talking about quads here, right?

00:52:07.800 So all of these things have context.

00:52:09.300 So it's basically down there around fifth on the list.

00:52:12.740 And then it even needs what I'd consider like a special bar and heel elevation.

00:52:16.120 Now that's for quads.

00:52:17.240 Now, if I was doing something, I just wanted to do a lower body exercise where I'm getting

00:52:21.640 the adductors and I'm getting the quads and I'm getting some glutes, then I could do something

00:52:25.540 like a low bar squat with a nice forward lean angle.

00:52:28.700 You know, I could get deep into the squat.

00:52:30.700 I'm not overthinking it.

00:52:32.460 I'm just like, Hey, I'm just doing a squat pattern.

00:52:34.760 I'm loading everything that's going to be involved in it.

00:52:36.720 But if we're talking about like hypertrophy and we're talking about, I would just want

00:52:40.700 to load this particular tissue and I'm trying to take my physique to the next level.

00:52:44.640 I do think those kinds of little nuances matter over a long period.

00:52:48.760 Do they matter for beginners as much?

00:52:50.240 No, not really.

00:52:50.820 Okay.

00:52:51.180 So exercise selection for hypertrophy, that's your goal.

00:52:54.200 Machines are going to be optimal, but you can still get it with dumbbells or barbells.

00:52:58.440 Even the cable machines, you use a lot of the cable stuff as well.

00:53:01.580 I use more cables now, I would say probably for mainly arm work, delt work, doing a lateral.

00:53:07.480 I love the line cable laterals.

00:53:09.460 That's actually a shout out to Joe Bennett, who I think came out with those.

00:53:13.460 That is the, honestly, in my opinion, the best lateral for the lateral deltoid exercise

00:53:18.960 that you can do.

00:53:19.720 I like machine laterals too now.

00:53:22.960 I used to not like those, but I've actually, mainly that was because there was a multitude

00:53:26.920 of those that sometimes do give my left shoulder problem.

00:53:29.800 I have a subluxation in my left shoulder.

00:53:32.240 It's basically got a certain amount of separation in the GH joint that it's caused by, I think

00:53:39.080 it was in a football injury.

00:53:40.880 Some of the lateral machines cause me pain and some don't. 0.95

00:53:44.300 So I kind of shit on them for quite a while, but I can actually get set up in some of them 0.97

00:53:48.960 now. 0.99

00:53:49.520 Not all of them, but most of them, to where they always cause me pain.

00:53:53.260 I do like those too.

00:53:54.040 They're highly stable.

00:53:54.940 You're doing abduction.

00:53:56.420 But the lying cable lateral, I like the most because there's a little bit of that freedom

00:54:01.660 of movement that gives my shoulder the least amount of problems.

00:54:04.380 And that's kind of the, also, that plays a factor in with everyone too, is your structure

00:54:08.100 and then your own injury potential or your injury history or your injury potential or

00:54:13.440 any of that kind of stuff.

00:54:14.120 So if somebody's like, every time I do this motion, this causes me pain.

00:54:18.620 If I can look at it and see maybe if there's something wrong in their mechanics that's causing

00:54:22.020 the problem.

00:54:22.540 But for some people, some stuff just hurts, right?

00:54:25.400 Like there's, there's not always like if somebody goes, well, you're doing this wrong

00:54:29.920 because it bothers your shoulder.

00:54:31.380 I'm like, no, it bothers my shoulder because I have, I've had injuries in that shoulder.

00:54:36.060 Yeah.

00:54:36.160 So there's certain movements that just bother it.

00:54:38.340 So those are things that take it to account too.

00:54:40.480 Right.

00:54:40.620 You got to work around those injuries.

00:54:41.960 Okay.

00:54:42.240 So let's do a recap here of what we talked about today.

00:54:45.200 If you want to train for hypertrophy, like if you want to get your muscles big, the key

00:54:48.920 is to achieve mechanical tension during your working set.

00:54:52.680 That happens when you train to failure or close to it.

00:54:57.640 And to achieve hypertrophy, you don't need as much volume as you might think.

00:55:01.180 If you're using lighter weight, you're going to have to do more reps.

00:55:04.140 But if you're using heavier weight, you can get hypertrophy with just a five to six reps.

00:55:08.900 So yeah, you don't have to go to the gym for hours and thrash yourself all the time to

00:55:13.600 get huge.

00:55:14.340 Well, Paul, this has been a great conversation.

00:55:16.300 Where can people go to learn more about what you do?

00:55:18.600 You can find me everywhere.

00:55:19.700 If you type in lift, run, bang.

00:55:21.060 I have said this on my own podcast so many times, I really want to change my name because

00:55:26.460 a lot of people are like, oh, when I started the blog and that name, I just wanted to use

00:55:31.660 something that was catchy.

00:55:32.860 And people always think the bang part has to do with sex.

00:55:35.300 It has nothing to do with sex.

00:55:37.420 So the idea behind when I started lift, run, bang was, you know, you're lifting, you're

00:55:41.800 doing some conditioning.

00:55:42.720 And then the bang was, I was a computer programmer and engineer for 15 years.

00:55:49.440 So the bang was what we call a variable in programming language.

00:55:54.400 So it could mean whatever you wrote in the program.

00:55:58.920 So a variable would be one word that would contain a string of commands within that one

00:56:04.480 word.

00:56:04.800 So within the program, if you call that one word, it would execute that string of commands.

00:56:09.020 So lift, run, and then the bang, the bang was a variable.

00:56:13.800 So what's your string of commands that are, do you execute in your life that you're passionate

00:56:17.720 about?

00:56:18.000 Whether it's being a dad or whether, you know, whether you're into jujitsu, whether you're

00:56:22.520 into, you know, like coaching little league or something, but some variable in your life

00:56:27.560 that is more than just like lifting weights and like doing cardio or whatever.

00:56:32.400 So that was the whole idea.

00:56:33.780 And I, like now people, I think just something as simple as like coach Carter would,

00:56:39.020 would be good or, or whatever.

00:56:41.100 But that was the whole premise behind it.

00:56:43.660 But if you type in lift, run, bang on pretty much all social media, you should find me in

00:56:47.500 some form or fashion.

00:56:49.720 I think the only place I don't go to anymore is Twitter.

00:56:52.760 Fantastic.

00:56:53.140 Well, Paul Carter, thanks for your time.

00:56:54.120 It's been a pleasure.

00:56:55.720 Absolutely, man.

00:56:56.320 I'm glad we finally got this done.

00:56:59.040 My guest today was Paul Carter.

00:57:00.460 You can find him across social media platforms at lift, run, bang.

00:57:03.780 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash hypertrophy.

00:57:06.520 We find links to resources.

00:57:07.940 We delve deeper into this topic.

00:57:16.440 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:57:19.440 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com.

00:57:21.660 We find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years

00:57:25.220 about pretty much anything you think of.

00:57:26.720 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review

00:57:30.040 and help a podcast or Spotify.

00:57:31.380 It helps out a lot.

00:57:32.220 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:57:33.940 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who would think we get something

00:57:36.800 out of it.

00:57:37.660 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:57:39.700 And until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to not listen to AOM podcast,

00:57:43.140 but put what you've heard into action.

00:57:56.720 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - October 09, 2023

The Science of Swole — How to Grow Your Muscles

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