The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


The Science of Swole — How to Grow Your Muscles


Episode Stats

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5


Summary

On this episode of the Art of Manliness podcast, my guest Paul Carter talks about the difference between size and strength, hypertrophy, the correct number of sets to do for developing muscle groups, and why he thinks machines are better than free weights for building bigger muscles. After the show's over, check out our show notes at AWIMIS slash Hypertrophy.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:11.480 A lot of guys would like to build bigger muscles and they may have heard that in order to do
00:00:15.720 so, they need to activate something called hypertrophy.
00:00:18.700 But what is hypertrophy and how do you achieve it in order to get swole?
00:00:22.500 My guest, bodybuilding and strength coach Paul Carter will unpack what you need to know
00:00:27.040 today on the show.
00:00:27.760 We get into the difference between size and strength, the two big myths around hypertrophy,
00:00:32.900 the right number of sets to do for developing a muscle group, why Paul thinks machines are
00:00:37.020 better than free weights for building bigger muscles and more.
00:00:40.080 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash hypertrophy.
00:00:54.800 All right, Paul Carter, welcome to the show.
00:00:57.760 Thanks, bud.
00:00:58.540 I'm glad to be here finally.
00:01:00.060 Yeah, we've been trying to track you down for a few months.
00:01:01.960 You're a busy man.
00:01:02.860 But you are a bodybuilding and strength coach and you've been in the game for over two decades.
00:01:08.380 I've been reading your stuff on your own website, Lift, Run, Bang, T Nation, Elite FTS for a long
00:01:16.180 time.
00:01:16.560 And you've got an interesting career path because you started off in bodybuilding and then you did
00:01:22.100 professional powerlifting for a decade.
00:01:24.300 And that's where I found you was with your powerlifting stuff.
00:01:27.440 But then you shifted back to bodybuilding.
00:01:30.140 So let's talk about this.
00:01:31.060 Why the initial shift from bodybuilding to powerlifting?
00:01:34.880 What was going on there?
00:01:36.600 Well, first off, I'm glad you actually got that order correct because a lot of people
00:01:40.720 through the past few years, either finding me through social media or those means, have
00:01:46.380 made comments like that I made this shift to create a brand or whatever.
00:01:51.060 When, as you said, anybody who's actually followed me for a very long period of time knows
00:01:55.400 I actually started in bodybuilding, I got started lifting when I was 14 and one of the first guys
00:02:01.980 that I found at that time was Doreen Yates.
00:02:05.900 And, you know, like it's kind of cool because that resurgence of the Mike Minster stuff has
00:02:09.300 is remade a resurgence right now.
00:02:11.420 And that's really popular.
00:02:12.920 I'm glad Mike is getting his due and stuff.
00:02:14.980 But yeah, I went from, from bodybuilding and all of those years where just kind of like what's
00:02:19.280 popular now on quote unquote social media, as far as training, I was already, I'd already
00:02:24.220 gravitated to when I first started training.
00:02:27.000 And then my transition over into powerlifting mainly happened because when I went into the
00:02:34.520 military and I came out and I was actually a computer engineer for like 15 years and I
00:02:39.020 wanted to do something with my lifting and powerlifting, I think was probably the most popular back
00:02:47.140 when I got into it.
00:02:49.080 I don't even remember what years those were, but they would have been around something like
00:02:52.380 maybe 2010 or even quite a bit before that.
00:02:56.560 But I started competing in powerlifting because at the time in my head, I thought that powerlifting
00:03:02.040 was like a little bit more tangible than bodybuilding in a sense that bodybuilding is a very kind of
00:03:06.880 subjective sport.
00:03:08.380 You know, you do your diet, you do your cardio, you slap on some Italian salad dressing on your
00:03:15.160 body and flex for people.
00:03:16.500 And then the judges determine like who's the winner.
00:03:19.200 And at the time I thought, well, powerlifting is a little bit more concise in terms that
00:03:24.140 you're going to go in, you've got to hit depth in your squat, you've got to pause your
00:03:27.160 bench, you've got to lock out your deadlift.
00:03:28.840 I felt like there were some more tangible things that you could say, okay, here's the kind of
00:03:33.940 the achievement side of things and it's more clear cut and dry.
00:03:36.800 That was kind of my thought process at the time.
00:03:38.940 And then I competed naturally in powerlifting for quite a few years.
00:03:43.300 And then when I decided that I'd been natural for a very long time, like 20 years, I decided
00:03:49.120 I was going to go ahead and pretty much felt like I'd maxed out my natural potential and
00:03:53.720 I wanted to see what doing anabolics would do.
00:03:56.460 And then that was when I started competing in non-tested federations.
00:03:59.940 And then I did that for a while.
00:04:02.780 Then I decided to exit powerlifting.
00:04:05.980 I kind of had a cap on it.
00:04:07.080 I said, when I turned 40, I would get off drugs and get out of powerlifting.
00:04:10.820 And that was what I did.
00:04:12.700 And why the 40 cap was just like, you're just old and you don't want to do that anymore.
00:04:17.300 To me, I just didn't want to be that guy that you see like in powerlifting.
00:04:21.980 And there's still, I think a lot of that going on where it's like dudes are still kind of
00:04:25.200 like quote unquote chasing their glory or like five more pounds on the bar or this or
00:04:31.300 whatever.
00:04:32.000 And I just felt like having a, if I, if I can get, I had goals.
00:04:36.160 I wanted a 700, no belt, no knee wrap squat.
00:04:39.020 I wanted a 750 deadlift and I wanted a 500 like close grip bitch.
00:04:44.660 And no, you don't get, there's no special division for having a close grip bench or,
00:04:49.480 you know, like not wearing a belt or anything that kind of stuff.
00:04:51.840 It was just personal achievements for me.
00:04:53.520 Like, so I kind of decided by the time I was like, well, if I, whatever I hit by the
00:05:00.520 time, that's my, that's my end game was when I get to be 40, I don't, you know, I got kids.
00:05:05.980 I don't want to stay on drugs and I don't want to keep chasing like pounds on the bar.
00:05:10.520 So I was just like, whatever I've got done by then, I'm going to get done.
00:05:13.160 Yeah.
00:05:13.680 I've had that same sort of thing.
00:05:15.180 So I got really into powerlifting starting like eight years ago and made, I really enjoyed
00:05:20.480 it.
00:05:20.560 Cause I like you, I enjoyed the tangibility of it.
00:05:22.400 You're able to see your progress and it was great to have concrete goals.
00:05:26.140 Like, well, I'm going to get a 500 pound deadlift.
00:05:28.500 No, I'm going to get five 50.
00:05:29.840 But then last year I turned 40 and it's amazing.
00:05:35.020 Like I, it's, it's cliche.
00:05:36.580 People talk about, oh yeah, when you turn 40, things just kind of change.
00:05:39.720 And I'm like, ah, whatever.
00:05:41.040 And it did.
00:05:42.180 I started noticing it took me a little bit longer to recover.
00:05:44.520 And I also stopped enjoying the, the process of chasing numbers.
00:05:50.260 It gave me the chasing numbers cause more frustration than satisfaction.
00:05:54.960 A hundred, a hundred.
00:05:56.000 There, there's something that I learned through those years of doing powerlifting.
00:05:59.380 And that was the arrival fallacy philosophy.
00:06:02.400 And that was that if you think arrival fallacy is the belief that if you achieve something
00:06:07.960 or obtain something, or, you know, there's something in your life that you finally get
00:06:12.600 that you believe is going to give you this, you know, sustainability of happiness that
00:06:18.340 it's going to happen.
00:06:18.980 And, and it does for about three minutes.
00:06:22.220 And then immediately you are like, okay, I could do better.
00:06:26.260 There's more.
00:06:27.160 So it is, it's like a, it's just chasing the dragon.
00:06:30.760 It's a never ending pursuit of, I, of you're trying to get more.
00:06:34.700 And the other thing, cause you're describing exactly what happened to me.
00:06:38.160 I lost my joy for that type of training because so you hit, like I hit a 700 deadlift.
00:06:44.580 Okay.
00:06:45.440 You're really happy for five minutes.
00:06:48.380 And a lot of people out there that are like, you know, kind of in your position say, well,
00:06:52.660 like, you know, I want to hit a 500 or 550.
00:06:54.880 If I was to hit a 700 to be otherworldly.
00:06:56.600 And I'm here to tell you, it's the same feeling each time you cross a PR barrier.
00:07:02.560 So like when you hit that 500 deadlift or 550 and the 600 to 650, the 700, it all feels the
00:07:08.640 same.
00:07:09.180 So you're really happy in the moment.
00:07:11.460 And then you're like, well, I've got to get to 650 or the, you know, people would post
00:07:15.520 that up online.
00:07:16.220 Like they just hit a 700 deadlift on the road to 800.
00:07:19.200 Like there's never any satisfaction in my opinion, that is sustainable from it.
00:07:25.240 And when I got out, when I retired and I decided I wasn't going to compete anymore, it was the
00:07:28.780 happiest I've ever been about my training.
00:07:31.020 Yeah.
00:07:31.180 The other shoe I ran into with the chasing numbers is, yeah, same thing.
00:07:35.240 I remember my last deadlift PR was 615 and you feel happy for like two minutes and then
00:07:41.480 you post it on Instagram and, you know, maybe it lasts a little, a little longer because
00:07:44.780 you're getting the accolades from everybody and then it goes away.
00:07:48.100 And then what you think about is, well, if I'm going to get the next PR, I'm going to
00:07:53.060 have to, it takes more work, significantly more work for just barely any gain.
00:07:58.800 So there's diminishing returns at a certain point.
00:08:00.840 It's like, I don't want to put my body through that.
00:08:02.440 It's just, it's stressful.
00:08:03.800 It's months and months and months of just pounding your body to get five more pounds.
00:08:09.400 All of the things.
00:08:10.080 And the funny thing is, is that the amount of work to go from 300 to 400, not really a
00:08:14.700 big deal.
00:08:15.200 And going from 400 to 500 can be going to 500 to 600, very different going from 600 to
00:08:23.360 700, not, not comparable either.
00:08:26.280 And then going from 700 up to 800, my best boat was 725.
00:08:30.040 So I never got to 750 or 800, but going each, like you said, each of those increments took
00:08:36.120 longer periods at a time.
00:08:38.660 And just for me, the amount of satisfaction each time was actually less.
00:08:43.760 And yeah, that was by the end.
00:08:46.140 I got to that exact point where I was like, I have to put in so much work to add so little.
00:08:53.340 And then it's very, those big swings are, are fleeting.
00:08:57.180 And the other thing was just coming off drugs.
00:08:59.300 I could never do the drugs the other guys were doing because anytime I would try to take
00:09:04.960 bigger doses like them, I felt so bad.
00:09:07.720 And like, I couldn't do a lot of the androgens that they used and stuff like that.
00:09:11.900 And I remember this world record holder I was talking to about it at the time told me, he's
00:09:18.200 like, well, what are you running going into this meet?
00:09:21.040 And when I told him when I was running, he, this was his, his remark.
00:09:24.680 He said, they don't give an award for highest total with lowest dose.
00:09:29.600 And I remember thinking at the time I was like, that's, I'm never going to be great at this
00:09:34.440 because I'm just, I can't do like the gram of trainer week with a gram and a half a test
00:09:39.900 with 300 orals a day.
00:09:42.160 I mean, like that, I just could not do those things.
00:09:43.900 I, anytime I try to push stuff, I felt horrible anxiety.
00:09:47.600 I couldn't sleep.
00:09:48.340 I couldn't, you know, like everything was bad.
00:09:50.220 So I never did the massive amount of drugs that people have to do to really succeed at
00:09:56.880 the highest level of those sports.
00:09:58.680 That's interesting.
00:09:59.800 Okay.
00:10:00.120 So you're back into bodybuilding.
00:10:01.960 You enjoy the process.
00:10:03.060 It seems like that from your videos that you're really enjoying this, but let's talk
00:10:06.500 about that.
00:10:06.780 Cause I think a lot of the reasons that guys lift isn't to pull 600 pounds.
00:10:10.620 They just want to look jacked.
00:10:12.120 They want to get big muscles and muscle hypertrophy is how your muscles get bigger.
00:10:17.180 Before we talk about what happens in muscle hypertrophy, let's talk about the difference
00:10:21.180 between hypertrophy and strength because something my kids brought up when I was into powerlifting,
00:10:27.360 you know, I'd be pulling 600 pounds, you know, squatting, you know, 450 pounds.
00:10:33.580 And my kids would be like, dad, like, how is it that you can like deadlift that much weight,
00:10:38.520 but you don't have big muscles?
00:10:40.300 You don't look like John Cena.
00:10:42.020 That thing is what my son told me.
00:10:43.020 He's like, you don't look like John Cena.
00:10:45.000 Your kids, uh, kids always had the hot takes on this, right?
00:10:48.120 Right.
00:10:48.360 Like, thanks.
00:10:49.180 Thanks, junior.
00:10:49.960 I appreciate you today.
00:10:51.340 And I was like, I had to explain to him, there's a difference between like muscle size and strength.
00:10:55.000 So like, what is the difference between hypertrophy and strength?
00:10:58.260 Like, how is it possible for, you see these guys, these like 180 pound guys pulling 800 pounds.
00:11:03.700 Yeah.
00:11:04.380 What's going on there?
00:11:04.960 So, well, when we talk about the average person and these maximal strength adaptations,
00:11:10.600 they really happen mostly, especially the early parts of them through a lot of neural adaptations.
00:11:16.340 Um, so you have like an increase in what we call like action potentials by the nervous system,
00:11:21.340 which is, well, a lot of people, they understand, they hear this word, it's known as like rate
00:11:25.640 coding.
00:11:26.500 Uh, and then you have through stuff like coordination improvements.
00:11:29.900 So you have a bunch of neural adaptations that happen as you're doing the lift that make
00:11:34.600 you more efficient with the lift that make your nervous system more efficient at basically
00:11:39.320 recruiting all the stuff that's going to be involved in the lift.
00:11:42.160 So the other thing for maximal strength is that there is a loading component for the pattern
00:11:49.960 learning stuff too.
00:11:51.140 So when my goal was to get stronger, but I didn't want to beat my body up in doing so,
00:11:56.220 I would actually do like sub maximal lifting like the squat, but I'd try to be as explosive
00:12:00.480 as possible.
00:12:01.880 So what that kind of does is it trains that pattern, but then you also get maximal motor unit
00:12:07.300 recruitment of everything that's going to be involved in the squat.
00:12:10.280 So you're in essence, you're training kind of the neural components of that, that pattern
00:12:14.760 without having to do the heavier loading, but in order to kind of maximally get the true
00:12:21.280 amount of the motor unit recruitment that you're going to need to maximize your squat
00:12:26.360 strength, you eventually do have to train with heavier loading to get those adaptations
00:12:31.180 from the heavier loading.
00:12:32.940 So the difference in that and hypertrophy is that hypertrophy is going to be the muscular
00:12:41.500 component of the adaptations that are occurring.
00:12:44.540 So with strength, we're looking a lot of neural adaptations, rate coding, motor unit recruitment.
00:12:50.780 We're looking at a lot of different things that are happening because we're getting more
00:12:54.320 efficient at that movement pattern.
00:12:56.640 With hypertrophy, what we're actually looking at are the muscular adaptations that are occurring
00:13:03.100 from mechanical tension.
00:13:05.780 So that's going to be the addition of something called either sarcomeres or myofibrils.
00:13:11.140 So that's essentially the kind of the functional units of protein that actually create contractions
00:13:17.640 and force.
00:13:18.280 So the interesting part kind of between these two things is when you look at the, if you
00:13:24.560 had like a little pyramid and you were creating like, you know, the base of the pyramid and
00:13:28.740 kind of going up through to the very top, the largest amount of strength that you're ever
00:13:33.260 going to have in your training is actually going to come from hypertrophy because what do you
00:13:39.900 think actually is producing the force?
00:13:41.880 And that's basically the actual muscle fibers themselves, right?
00:13:45.320 So that the sarcomeres and the myofibrils and the muscle fibers that actually produce force
00:13:49.640 are going to be where you're going to have your largest potential and your greatest foundation
00:13:54.160 for actually strength expression.
00:13:55.960 So that when you stack all that stuff up, that's kind of where that comes from.
00:14:00.960 So that's kind of the basis of it all is that if you're going to train to maximize hypertrophy,
00:14:09.340 you're really talking about training with a certain degree of proximity to failure to create
00:14:14.660 mechanical tension, you're talking about a specific amount of like hard sets close to failure
00:14:21.640 or to failure in order to kind of get enough of those stimulating repetitions within the
00:14:27.400 training session to create the need for those adaptations.
00:14:31.140 Whereas with strength, it's not quite as important to train to failure.
00:14:36.000 It's kind of more important to become very efficient at the motor patterns and become very efficient
00:14:41.180 at the movements themselves.
00:14:42.240 So there's some things that separate those two approaches.
00:14:45.620 Okay.
00:14:45.880 So that makes sense.
00:14:46.900 So hypertrophy, you're actually adding muscle tissue to your body.
00:14:51.000 With strength, I think Pavel, that guy, he says like strength is a skill.
00:14:55.140 So you're basically, you're training the muscle tissue you have to contract and express force
00:15:00.960 in an efficient manner.
00:15:01.960 Yeah, so that will be, like I said, the neural adaptations that are incurred from that will
00:15:08.700 happen because there is a degree that we become more efficient.
00:15:14.300 Like I said, that rate coding is that that's firing those action potentials off for those
00:15:18.960 particular movement patterns.
00:15:20.440 One of the things that I find pretty interesting, I'll give you a really kind of layman's example
00:15:25.780 of this, if you put up a little basket in the corner and you had a bunch of wadded up like
00:15:31.520 paper balls and you start trying to throw, you know, like, like a basketball, like throw
00:15:37.000 those paper balls into the basket.
00:15:39.820 At first you might be really off, but every time you throw it, you probably get a little
00:15:43.700 closer and then better and better, better eventually.
00:15:45.880 And you're literally just training those motor patterns for how much force you have to apply,
00:15:50.980 you know, like the angle that you have to release it and all kinds of stuff that's going on in
00:15:54.620 your brain that you don't even think about.
00:15:57.040 Every time that you go in to the gym and you do a workout, a lot of people used to think
00:16:03.040 that those neural adaptations, it took like weeks or months for them to happen.
00:16:06.920 They literally happen rep to rep to rep to rep.
00:16:09.960 So anything that you do, the neural adaptations actually happen fairly quickly.
00:16:14.660 And that's the reason why you see these massive run-ups in strength for beginners, right?
00:16:18.040 Like a beginner comes in and over from the time they start to six months later, their
00:16:21.560 strength improvement is like through the roof and then it slows down over time.
00:16:25.540 So the neural adaptations that, as you said from Pavel, it's like, it's a, something that
00:16:32.360 your brain learns.
00:16:33.560 So here's these movement patterns.
00:16:34.600 I want to become more efficient with it.
00:16:36.280 So what are the muscular adaptations that I need to create in order to become more efficient
00:16:42.160 at this?
00:16:43.360 And then what are the neural adaptations that I need to create to become more efficient at
00:16:47.640 this?
00:16:47.780 So it's really kind of an efficiency process.
00:16:50.580 Whereas with muscular adaptations and we're actually adding contractile units to produce
00:16:56.140 force, that is a completely different process.
00:17:00.440 Okay.
00:17:00.480 So you can be strong, but not have that much hypertrophy because you've gotten strong more
00:17:06.340 through neural adaptations rather than gaining muscle tissue.
00:17:10.440 So this is why someone can deadlift 600 pounds and not look like John Cena.
00:17:15.980 Like they're not going to be huge.
00:17:17.080 But then you can also have hypertrophy and not be super strong.
00:17:21.640 I mean, you're going to be strong.
00:17:22.900 I think there's, there's impression, there's this impression out there that bodybuilders
00:17:26.020 look ripped, but they're not actually strong.
00:17:28.580 They are strong, you know, from adding that muscle tissue, but they may not be able to deadlift
00:17:33.880 600 pounds or squat 500 pounds because they haven't been training those particular lifts and developing
00:17:39.880 the muscular efficiency for them.
00:17:42.540 Okay.
00:17:42.660 So with that understanding, let's dig more into the process of muscular hypertrophy.
00:17:47.340 And you talk a lot about the myths that are out there about hypertrophy.
00:17:50.800 What are the biggest ones that you see?
00:17:52.400 I think over the past decade, the one, well, there's a multitude of ones.
00:17:58.120 And I think that the two common ones that still either come up or have come up the most was the
00:18:02.820 whole like volume is a driver for hypertrophy or volume is the driver for hypertrophy, which
00:18:08.440 is clearly not true.
00:18:09.960 Um, or not, it's definitely not true in the context that it's presented.
00:18:14.520 And then the, the other one that comes to still comes up quite often, which I, every time that
00:18:18.400 I debunk it, the amount of engagement gets crazy.
00:18:21.880 It's the fact that muscle is, is torn down and built back bigger.
00:18:24.580 And that's how you end up with bigger muscles.
00:18:26.040 Neither of those two things are true.
00:18:29.100 So, I mean, there's a whole long list of myths that still exist and permeate throughout the
00:18:34.580 social media landscape or through even throughout the educational landscape, which is pretty
00:18:39.600 wild because there's people that come out of school now and they haven't updated textbooks.
00:18:45.000 They haven't updated relevant information and they will just spout off stuff they learned
00:18:50.220 from their professor who has never opened a new study or textbook since like 1995.
00:18:54.880 So there's a multitude of myths that still occur and run around.
00:18:58.440 I try to do a good job of helping people to learn past that.
00:19:02.440 And some people will be like, just go to the gym and lift weights.
00:19:04.440 I'm like, if you just want to be that lunkhead, meathead, like mentality guy, that's cool.
00:19:09.220 But a lot of us are actually interested in the physiology and the biomechanics of how
00:19:14.360 all this stuff works.
00:19:15.280 So that's kind of the people that I'm trying to give this information to.
00:19:19.260 Well, where do those myths come from?
00:19:20.420 Like the hypertrophy?
00:19:21.240 I remember hearing that.
00:19:22.400 It's like, well, to train for strength, you train to like the three to five rep max with
00:19:26.780 heavy load.
00:19:27.580 For hypertrophy, it's higher volume, lighter load.
00:19:30.680 Like where did that even come from?
00:19:32.080 Um, so a lot of that stuff came back to, there used to be the one myth, for example, that
00:19:38.140 one comes back to a lot of it was fiber type stuff, right?
00:19:41.940 So before people really understood the size principle and the force velocity relationship
00:19:47.000 and those kinds of things and how they tie into the addition of new myofibrils for hypertrophy.
00:19:52.620 A lot of that tied in, they say like, oh, well, this creates explosive strength and this
00:19:57.720 creates maximal strength and this creates strength endurance.
00:20:00.580 And this does all this stuff now to be slightly nuanced.
00:20:05.800 If you're doing higher rep stuff, there are some endurance adaptations that you'll get
00:20:09.560 that you won't get as much from lower repetitions.
00:20:13.360 However, when we're just speaking about the hypertrophy scale and just adding muscle tissue,
00:20:18.000 the mechanisms that create muscle growth are the same regardless of the rep ranges.
00:20:24.200 If we're working at rep ranges, anywhere from about four to five reps, all the way up
00:20:27.440 to 25 to 30 reps.
00:20:28.960 That's kind of the range that the adaptations occur in.
00:20:31.940 And they're essentially similar throughout that entire range because the muscle physiology
00:20:37.820 mechanisms that cause hypertrophy are the same regardless.
00:20:41.760 The muscle damage stuff and the muscles are torn down and grow back bigger.
00:20:46.060 That goes all the way back to around 91.
00:20:48.040 And all of that stuff was consistently disproven throughout any of the research that looked
00:20:54.420 at actual muscle damage and how it needed to be attenuated in order for the same cellular
00:21:00.660 processes to cause muscle tissue to accumulate.
00:21:04.040 So the idea of people would say, well, it's torn down and built back bigger.
00:21:09.240 There's so many layers that that wouldn't even make sense.
00:21:11.520 And we can also look at the fact that the repair process for damaged tissue is the exact same
00:21:16.800 as you'll see from muscle damage, but actual like contusions and stuff like that.
00:21:20.780 But you don't add muscle.
00:21:21.800 Like if you go out, if people were just adding muscle from muscle damage, then football players
00:21:26.240 that get muscle contusions or lacerations that happen around that kind of stuff, people
00:21:29.960 be growing muscle out the yin-yang from that kind of stuff, but it doesn't happen.
00:21:33.360 So a lot of those repair processes from a cellular mechanism standpoint are identical, but they
00:21:38.900 don't grow muscle.
00:21:39.880 So the idea that you would tear muscle down, the other thing is, is that when we see muscle
00:21:45.660 damage occur, we're actually looking at it in the research, it tends to occur anywhere
00:21:50.940 from four to six to eight hours after the workout or even, you know, a bit longer, somewhere
00:21:56.580 in the eight hour period, is when those, basically the cellular mechanisms occur that cause the
00:22:05.240 protein degradation at those kind of microscopic levels.
00:22:09.940 So if muscles will be in quote unquote torn down and they were, people say, well, fibers
00:22:14.940 are being torn.
00:22:15.520 If you tear the actual muscle fiber, you're not moving.
00:22:17.620 That's the amount of pain you're being, it would be incredible.
00:22:20.300 But it's not even happening until maybe six to eight hours later.
00:22:24.460 And that is because it's a protein degradation thing from this type of protease.
00:22:30.340 So it's not anything being quote unquote torn or micro tears or stuff like that's occurring
00:22:35.760 in there.
00:22:36.180 It's actually from the protein degradation processes that happen due to muscle damage.
00:22:41.780 When those are occurring, there are a multitude of mechanisms that happen to try to thwart that
00:22:49.380 off.
00:22:49.720 And what we know of that now is something called the repeated bout effect.
00:22:54.140 And we think of that happening through eccentric, a bout of eccentric exercise.
00:22:58.380 So there's a bunch of things that happen to say, I want to protect against future bouts
00:23:02.320 of muscle damage.
00:23:03.640 Now, once those protective processes are in place, what we have seen at the cellular level
00:23:08.940 is that that is when muscle hypertrophy starts to really happen.
00:23:13.120 So we need those protective processes in place.
00:23:15.400 So that way, those cellular mechanisms can actually go towards adding those contractile
00:23:21.460 units.
00:23:22.420 And that's muscle hypertrophy.
00:23:23.640 So really, the fact is, is that if a bunch of muscle damage is happening, you're actually
00:23:28.200 not really adding muscle.
00:23:30.020 And you're just creating the repair or the basically the repair and the remodeling and
00:23:35.560 the protective processes in order that need to be in place before that can happen.
00:23:40.740 So it's the same cellular mechanisms, but it's different outcomes.
00:23:43.700 Okay, so to help listeners understand this difference, if muscle damage does occur during
00:23:50.540 exercise, like when you're doing a bunch of, you know, fatiguing reps and you're feeling
00:23:55.480 that burn, muscle protein synthesis is going to occur, but it's not adding more muscle tissue.
00:24:02.960 It's not hypertrophic.
00:24:04.860 Instead, the muscle protein synthesis is happening to repair and replace the damaged muscle fibers,
00:24:11.960 like myofibrils.
00:24:12.680 So it's not adding fiber, it's just replacing it.
00:24:16.780 And then during that repair process, there's some stuff going on to protect that tissue
00:24:22.000 from future bouts of damage.
00:24:24.640 And then this repair and strengthening process of damaged tissue, it can eventually help with
00:24:30.800 hypertrophy because you're able to train the muscle and achieve mechanical tension.
00:24:36.260 And we're going to talk about what that is here in a second.
00:24:38.560 You're able to do that without damaging the myofibrils.
00:24:41.080 So the process to repair damaged muscle fibers and adding new muscle fibers, they're different.
00:24:46.920 And again, you don't need to experience muscle damage to experience hypertrophy.
00:24:52.080 And what you need is what I just said, you need mechanical tension.
00:24:55.400 So let's talk about that.
00:24:56.620 What is mechanical tension and how does it drive hypertrophy?
00:24:59.920 So mechanical tension, the best way that you can think about it is there's two things that
00:25:05.840 got to happen.
00:25:06.400 You have to have a high degree of motor unit recruitment and you have to have a slowing
00:25:10.160 of contraction velocity.
00:25:11.700 So I'll dumb this down the best that I can.
00:25:13.800 Is if you think about going to failure and let's say you're doing a set of 10 reps and you're
00:25:18.960 not going to make the 11th rep, your repetitions start slowing down towards the end of the set,
00:25:24.280 no matter how hard you're pushing.
00:25:26.180 So during that time, there's a lot of things going on at the, basically the microscopic
00:25:33.140 levels.
00:25:34.320 And that's going to be at the sarcomeres, whereas you're going to have these cross bridging
00:25:37.900 between actin and myosin.
00:25:40.240 And it's like a pulling type force.
00:25:42.840 So as the weight is trying to pull against you, the actual sarcomeres themselves and the
00:25:49.380 actin and myosin filaments, they are basically trying to, they do this thing called cross bridging
00:25:55.300 where they pull on one another, opposing them.
00:25:57.580 They're creating a high degree of force to oppose that external force.
00:26:01.340 When that happens, that force is detected as tension.
00:26:05.540 And then that is actually converted into the biological process where the adaptations for
00:26:11.440 adding more myofibrils happen.
00:26:14.820 So that way you can produce more force.
00:26:16.180 And that's essentially the hypertrophy process.
00:26:19.740 So I get asked, like, you know, how do you explain mechanical tension?
00:26:24.060 I'm like, it's just, it's simply a pulling force within the muscle fibers.
00:26:27.200 And so if the external force is pulling one way and you're trying to pull the other way,
00:26:31.340 then the muscles are trying to produce a high degree of force.
00:26:34.240 And that's experienced as mechanical tension.
00:26:37.600 Gotcha.
00:26:38.100 Okay.
00:26:38.320 And so, you know, if you're experiencing mechanical tension, if for example, you're doing some
00:26:42.100 bicep curls and you get into that rep where things just start slowing down and it's getting
00:26:46.260 harder to complete the rep, is that mechanical tension?
00:26:49.540 Yep.
00:26:50.000 So mechanical tension exists on the force velocity relationship.
00:26:54.200 And if anybody looks up the force velocity curve, what they'll see is that if you're moving
00:26:59.100 very fast, so let's say if you squat down and you try to jump up to the ceiling and touch
00:27:03.700 the ceiling, there's a high degree of motor in your recruitment, but there's a low degree
00:27:08.660 of force.
00:27:09.620 And a lot of people will say it or like, huh, because they confuse, they think of force as
00:27:14.120 kind of the Newton force, right?
00:27:16.080 Force equals mass times acceleration.
00:27:18.000 But intramuscular force has nothing to do with that.
00:27:21.260 So intramuscular force has everything to do with the amount of cross bridging that is occurring.
00:27:26.500 So when you're actually pushing very hard, like you're saying, doing a set of bicep curls
00:27:31.660 and you're applying a high degree of effort, that's when you're actually getting a high
00:27:35.820 degree of motor in your recruitment and you get a lot of muscle fiber activation.
00:27:39.900 But because of the fact that they're having to produce a lot of force, they're like, oh,
00:27:44.460 that's a lot of tension.
00:27:46.320 So what do I need to do in order to create adaptations for this tension?
00:27:50.720 And that is number one, if it's, again, if it's early in the training session or if it's
00:27:54.920 not, it's a novel exercise or anything like that, there's protective mechanisms to put
00:27:59.340 in place to attenuate that muscle damage.
00:28:02.700 And then from there, as you continue to do that week after week after week, it says, oh,
00:28:06.820 what adaptations can I put in place now?
00:28:08.640 And it says, let me create the ability to produce more force.
00:28:12.720 So that is going to be how your muscle hypertrophy comes.
00:28:16.360 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:28:18.060 We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.
00:28:20.720 And now back to the show.
00:28:24.160 And this, going back to volume doesn't cause hypertrophy.
00:28:27.820 You can experience mechanical tension without doing 10 or 12 reps.
00:28:31.660 It could be three reps, four reps.
00:28:33.760 It's just because if you have a heavier load, heavier weight.
00:28:37.200 Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:38.080 So if you do one set of five to failure and you couldn't do six reps, so it's a five rep
00:28:44.580 max load, then really all five of those reps are going to have a high degree of force.
00:28:50.720 And so those fibers that are active, we're going to experience a high degree of tension.
00:28:55.320 So volume load or volume itself is completely irrelevant to hypertrophy if you're not counting
00:29:04.500 sets that have a specific proximity to failure or they have a certain amount of velocity loss.
00:29:09.760 So if I do, and we've seen this through every study that's ever looked at this.
00:29:15.000 So this is not really like one of those kind of debatable topics.
00:29:18.320 It's like is what's repeatable over and over and over and over and over again is that as
00:29:23.000 we train closer to failure and we have a high degree of simulating repetitions, then that
00:29:29.960 is what's going to cause myofibril protein synthesis to be elevated.
00:29:33.480 And that's kind of the biological, the physiological mechanism that creates the ability that adds
00:29:39.220 those new myofibrils.
00:29:40.920 If we train very far away from failure, we can do all the volume in the world that we
00:29:45.280 want to, but those fibers will not experience that high degree of tension.
00:29:50.260 They won't produce a lot of force.
00:29:51.600 So they don't actually grow.
00:29:53.340 They're not giving a reason to grow.
00:29:54.820 So the idea that volume was king, because I've heard guys say that volume is king, volume
00:30:02.220 drives hypertrophy.
00:30:03.180 I'm like, no, not really.
00:30:05.740 It's now I need to quantify that because every set you do is going to have a degree of, let's
00:30:14.300 say we're talking about sets to failure or very close to failure.
00:30:17.500 Every set that you do has a certain number of repetitions in it, like we just talked about,
00:30:22.800 that are stimulating repetitions that go towards creating that muscle growth process.
00:30:28.140 They also come with a certain amount of fatigue.
00:30:30.400 So there's a nonlinear relationship with volume and hypertrophy to where one set really causes
00:30:37.340 this enormous response.
00:30:40.700 One set to failure causes an enormous response to create muscle hypertrophy.
00:30:45.540 The second set causes a nice response too, but comparatively, it's much smaller than the
00:30:52.100 first set because there's also been a degree of fatigue that's been created from that first
00:30:57.260 set.
00:30:57.800 The third set also causes a nice response.
00:31:02.320 However, again, comparatively, it's smaller, a lot smaller than the first set.
00:31:07.460 So from the first set, you have to do, in order to double the degree of stimulus that you're
00:31:13.180 going to get from that first set, you have to do five more sets.
00:31:16.200 So it's a nonlinear relationship.
00:31:17.980 So it's not like if you were thinking in hypertrophy and something as basic like units, say like
00:31:22.200 one set causes one unit of hypertrophy units, two sets cause two units, and three sets cause
00:31:26.940 three units.
00:31:27.680 It doesn't really work that way.
00:31:29.260 There's a nonlinear relationship.
00:31:32.140 And in all the research that's kind of looked at how volume equates off to hypertrophic adaptations,
00:31:40.000 it's that nonlinear relationship to where it goes up, kind of up, and then it essentially
00:31:45.760 levels off so that anything that you're doing extra after that either doesn't add anything
00:31:51.040 to what you're doing or potentially even causes a regression.
00:31:54.580 Okay.
00:31:54.720 And this is where this idea of Mike Metzner, his, you know, heavy duty training, like you
00:31:58.520 train one to two sets really hard and that's all you do.
00:32:04.300 Yeah.
00:32:04.840 And I mean, I think depending on how people have actually counted their sets over the years,
00:32:11.440 they may have already been training like that anyway, or may not have.
00:32:15.220 So all depending on what you're counting as a quote unquote set.
00:32:20.340 So if you go in and you do like four sets of 12, but each set you're having to add weight
00:32:24.960 and the only ones you even got close to failure on was the last set.
00:32:27.440 Did you do four sets or did you do one set?
00:32:29.640 In my opinion, you did one set.
00:32:31.120 Right.
00:32:31.560 Okay.
00:32:31.820 So mechanical tension, you know, it's mechanical tension if you're getting close to failure.
00:32:35.920 It doesn't have to be to failure.
00:32:37.700 I think you've highlighted the research.
00:32:39.020 It has to be near failure.
00:32:39.980 So, yeah, I think that's something that people kind of, they don't, so the, we had the meta
00:32:48.480 analysis that came out a while back and people were saying that hypertrophy is the same if
00:32:53.260 you're training three RIR to train two failure.
00:32:56.000 And I'm like, okay, that all of that stuff needs really in-depth nuance.
00:33:02.160 So in no world is three RIR the same as training two failure or one RIR.
00:33:08.220 Because it's just for our listeners who don't know, like three IR, that's like your three
00:33:12.720 reps away.
00:33:13.420 Three reps in reserve.
00:33:14.040 Yeah, three reps in reserve.
00:33:15.000 So it's when you reach the end of the set, you could have done three more reps.
00:33:18.420 So I heard that said by some people and I was like, yeah, that's not even what the research
00:33:23.460 is showing.
00:33:24.520 It still shows there does appear to be a somewhat linear relationship with training two failure
00:33:29.580 and hypertrophy.
00:33:30.360 When the meta regression came out and there was, it was a much better overall look, what
00:33:36.940 they found was what I'd already felt like, what really we saw in the research is, and
00:33:41.440 that is if you're using heavier loading, it's probably not as important to actually get to
00:33:45.800 failure.
00:33:46.480 But if you're using lighter loading, it's probably a bit more important to actually try
00:33:51.120 to get to task failure than with heavier loading.
00:33:54.660 With heavier loading, you're going to have that full motor unit recruitment from the very
00:33:58.340 first rep, but I'm talking somewhere around 86 to 88% of one rep max, and that's going
00:34:03.360 to limit you to somewhere around five or six reps.
00:34:05.880 But that's where you're going to have essentially a set that's done where all of those repetitions
00:34:11.000 are going to be stimulating and have a high degree of mechanical tension.
00:34:14.220 Whereas if you're using lighter loading and both the meta analysis and the regression
00:34:19.260 found this exact same thing, and I think this was the part that most people missed out
00:34:23.240 on, they couldn't explain in the first one, the meta analysis, why that higher
00:34:28.140 higher reps or light loading with higher reps needed failure to kind of achieve that same
00:34:33.560 hypertrophy stimulus.
00:34:35.400 Whereas in the second one, they found the same thing, but they didn't, neither one explained
00:34:40.420 it.
00:34:40.600 So the whole reason is it's just motor unit recruitment.
00:34:42.760 So when you're doing higher reps, there's a lot of things that are happening on your way
00:34:46.800 to getting to failure.
00:34:48.020 So if you're doing 15 reps to failure, if you think about it, those first 10 reps or
00:34:54.020 even 12 reps are just there to create fatigue feedback to say, this feels really painful.
00:35:01.740 This is really difficult.
00:35:02.860 And the repetition that you do creates a degree of fatigue.
00:35:05.820 They're not creating really a degree of stimulus.
00:35:08.800 So they're there to create fatigue.
00:35:10.720 So by the time that you're getting towards the end of it, you have to really push to
00:35:15.920 failure in order to get full motor unit recruitment or get maximal motor, you don't ever get full,
00:35:21.600 but to get maximal motor unit recruitment as comparatively as you do with the heavier
00:35:24.760 sets, because you have those negative feedback mechanisms in place and that afferent feedback
00:35:31.620 and those negative feedback mechanisms actually don't really allow you to get as much motor unit
00:35:37.120 recruitment because they don't exist when you're doing heavier loading, right?
00:35:39.440 So you know this, if you go in and you do like a three rep max or five rep max, there's
00:35:45.020 nothing fatiguing in there.
00:35:46.200 There's no burning sensation.
00:35:47.800 There's no like fatigue.
00:35:49.060 There's nothing in those that create fatigue as you're getting.
00:35:52.760 If you're only going to, if you're doing a deadlift with a five rep max and you can't
00:35:56.480 do six reps, you can't do the five rep max because you're just not producing, you can't
00:36:01.340 produce any more force.
00:36:02.120 When you're doing a set of 15, there's a lot of negative feedback sensations that happen
00:36:09.760 on the way to that 15th rep that essentially create kind of an interference effect.
00:36:14.700 So it's more important with that lighter loading that you get to failure than with the heavier
00:36:19.440 loading.
00:36:19.840 So I think that's why some people end up misinterpreting that as, oh, it's perfectly okay to do three
00:36:27.220 RIR.
00:36:27.700 I'm like, no, it's not.
00:36:29.060 Three RIR at a set of 15 reps is not the same as getting to 15 reps and hitting task failure.
00:36:36.780 And they really showed that in that research.
00:36:39.160 So getting to failure is probably more important if you're going to do something like 10, 12,
00:36:44.380 15 reps, actually getting to task failure than if you're doing say like five or six reps.
00:36:48.780 With a heavier load.
00:36:51.460 Okay.
00:36:51.660 So knowing that mechanical tension is what drives hypertrophy, mechanical tension is when
00:36:56.280 you're getting close to failure or failure.
00:36:58.780 How do you program for mechanical tension?
00:37:01.960 Like how do you, so one thing people know is that you have to progressively overload to
00:37:05.440 get stronger.
00:37:06.460 What does progressive overload look like in a hypertrophy program with this mechanical tension
00:37:12.540 idea?
00:37:13.140 So progressive overload is like, it's another myth one, right?
00:37:19.200 Like the program, people would say forever.
00:37:20.660 Progressive overload is adding more sets or doing more exercises or whatever.
00:37:24.880 And that that's consistently been misconstrued.
00:37:27.140 So progressive overload is how we measure if a program is working.
00:37:33.160 So if I did 200 pounds for eight reps last week, can I do 200 pounds for nine or 10 reps
00:37:39.400 this week?
00:37:39.900 So in my programs, how I set this up is people after their warmups will do one or two sets
00:37:46.320 to failure or very close to failure for that exercise.
00:37:50.440 And then we have a certain number of what we call like hard sets that have effective reps in
00:37:56.380 them within the session.
00:37:57.860 So as long as somebody is able to add reps or they can add load or, or even potentially
00:38:04.440 both, that's what we see as progressive overload.
00:38:07.700 And what that means is that it's feedback that these adaptations that we have talked about,
00:38:11.920 whether they're neural or muscular are occurring within the training program.
00:38:15.400 So yeah, the way I've been doing that, so I've been kind of shifting to more of a
00:38:18.700 hypertrophy program, I'll have a load and then I'll start at maybe eight and then I'll
00:38:24.940 work up to 12.
00:38:26.220 And once I get to 12, I'll bump the weight up and then go back down to eight.
00:38:30.780 And that's how I've been doing it.
00:38:31.900 That's been working for me.
00:38:33.120 I, that was, that was, I actually, that was the exact method I used when I was younger.
00:38:39.080 What's, what's really weird to me at times is I figured out stuff through when I was like
00:38:44.960 a kid, like a teenager, I figured out a lot of these things just from what I felt like
00:38:50.560 was just good critical thinking and just made sense.
00:38:53.860 And then stuff I read in the magazines.
00:38:55.420 So that was the method I used forever was I figured if I could take a weight that I could
00:39:02.080 only get maybe seven or eight reps with, and I could get to where I was doing 10 or 12
00:39:05.500 reps with it, I would be bigger.
00:39:06.980 That was the basis of what I figured out.
00:39:09.580 And it's a hundred percent true.
00:39:11.660 Like you can get into the deepness of all the physiological mechanisms and all that stuff.
00:39:16.380 But at the end of the day, if I can take a weight that I was doing eight reps with and
00:39:21.140 I get to 12 and then I add load to something that brings me back to eight.
00:39:24.900 And I just keep repeating that process over years and years and years of doing that.
00:39:29.120 That's how you're going to get larger.
00:39:30.560 It's really that simple.
00:39:31.820 Right.
00:39:32.400 And that is like the, now you can do that with say, I'm going to go from six, six reps to
00:39:37.540 10 reps or six reps to eight reps or eight reps, 12 reps, just somewhere within that range where
00:39:42.400 you just have some way of progressively overloading those motions at there.
00:39:47.260 You don't have any other, any other outcome that's going to happen other than you're going
00:39:51.220 to get larger.
00:39:52.100 And I think that it's weird to me that so many people overthink this stuff and just miss
00:39:59.300 the forest for the trees.
00:40:01.300 Right.
00:40:01.720 Like that's right there in front of you.
00:40:02.860 Like if you can, how I remember when I figured this one out, it was the hundred pound dumbbells
00:40:09.680 was the largest dumbbells that we had in, in the gym I was in at the time.
00:40:13.740 I was probably, I think I was 15 and I was doing the hundreds for like eight.
00:40:21.000 And I remember thinking if I could get those to 12, my chest would be bigger.
00:40:25.980 That was my whole process.
00:40:28.100 That was it.
00:40:29.320 Like that was the whole process.
00:40:30.860 So from there, I just did that with like every, every girl was like, well, I guess I
00:40:34.140 just do that with everything.
00:40:35.120 So I'm doing this for eight reps and I can get that weight to 12 reps, then I'll be bigger.
00:40:40.500 And then when I'd get to 12 reps, I'd add weight.
00:40:43.880 So that's why tracking your workouts is important.
00:40:45.520 Cause you can see, well, I did this last week.
00:40:47.880 I'm going to progressively overload by either adding a rep or adding weight.
00:40:51.820 I'm curious, how many sets should you do?
00:40:54.540 So you mentioned there's a non-linear connection between hypertrophy and sets.
00:40:59.500 So how do you know when to stop?
00:41:00.860 Is it just one set, two sets, three sets?
00:41:03.840 Let's say you got programmed bicep curls for the day.
00:41:06.940 Right.
00:41:07.240 How many sets should you do of a bicep curl in that workout?
00:41:10.160 Well, it depends on how many bicep exercises that we're doing.
00:41:13.920 It depends on the entire structure of the program.
00:41:16.720 So sometimes it's just one set, but then it might be two or three different curl exercises
00:41:22.980 or two or three different forearm flexor exercises, or it could be just two sets of curls.
00:41:30.300 So a lot of people will be like, well, that doesn't meet the whatever.
00:41:35.280 My philosophy, we just talked about progressive overload.
00:41:39.200 My philosophy has never been, let me do the maximum amount of volume that I can recover
00:41:44.420 from.
00:41:44.800 I think that is a really backwards mentality.
00:41:47.420 I think the idea about how you should approach training is how do I get the maximum amount
00:41:52.880 of progressive overload with the least amount of volume?
00:41:58.220 Gotcha.
00:41:59.060 Okay.
00:41:59.640 So if, let's say maybe you have an arms program, like you're doing arms day.
00:42:03.880 If you're doing two bicep exercises, you maybe just have to do one to two sets of each of
00:42:10.140 those and that's it?
00:42:11.900 So if I literally had like an arm day, and that's what I said, kind of like the, if you'd
00:42:16.300 have to be talking like the whole program.
00:42:18.000 But if you had like an arm day, it might be something as simple as three tricep exercises
00:42:23.280 and three bicep exercises.
00:42:24.620 But they would each just get like one, one set to failure.
00:42:29.060 Okay.
00:42:29.880 I can't ever see myself doing like six sets for triceps or biceps.
00:42:34.260 That's, I, in all of the research that we've had, generally the cap overall, I'm talking
00:42:41.300 about for everybody, has been eight sets for a muscle group in this session.
00:42:44.880 Now that's really pushing the upper limit.
00:42:46.920 So somebody's going to listen to this and go, Paul said eight sets.
00:42:49.400 I'm not saying eight effing sets.
00:42:51.740 I'm saying for the absolute highest on the outlier scale of we've seen people of using
00:42:58.840 volume with long rest periods, it's around eight sets.
00:43:02.040 Six sets looks like it's the cap for the majority of people before the point of diminishing returns
00:43:06.920 kicks in.
00:43:07.920 So I can't see myself even doing six sets for biceps and workout.
00:43:12.820 I don't think, and a lot of people will go, why such low volume?
00:43:15.660 That's not low volume.
00:43:16.740 That's the other argument that comes up that really grinds my gears.
00:43:20.640 I'm like, that's not low volume.
00:43:22.180 If you're taking longer rest periods, that's on the upper end of the volume scale.
00:43:26.880 So you have to do, when you're taking the rest periods thing, cleared up a lot of the
00:43:31.900 confusion over the years.
00:43:33.120 So if you take a short rest period, you basically have to do twice as much volume to get the
00:43:36.860 same hypertrophy stimulus due to the amount of the fatigue that's accumulated.
00:43:40.960 So if you're doing an arm day and you're doing three or four good sets for biceps, that's
00:43:47.180 going to be plenty.
00:43:47.900 If you're doing three or four good sets for triceps, that's going to be plenty because
00:43:51.380 you're still going to have other days in the week, right, where you're doing some pulling
00:43:54.360 and pushing and there'll be a certain amount of stimulus that they'll still get from that
00:43:58.420 stuff.
00:43:59.060 All right.
00:43:59.400 I think the takeaway there is you don't have to spend two hours in the gym to get results.
00:44:02.940 I think that's another myth.
00:44:04.240 I had no point have I ever in 30, I've literally been training 34 years.
00:44:10.600 Have I ever spent more than like an hour in the gym?
00:44:13.560 This, this belief that I think for years or when I was in powerlifting and I don't know
00:44:18.200 how much you know about this, but there was definitely a long period of time.
00:44:21.620 I think it was like when the Kelly start stuff was popular.
00:44:24.220 The whole supple leopard thing was going on was people would go in and spend half an hour
00:44:29.740 doing warmups and then mobility drills and stuff like that.
00:44:33.880 I've never done that stuff.
00:44:35.260 I go in, people ask, how do you warm up?
00:44:37.180 I'm like, I walk in, I find the first exercise that I'm doing and I do like eight to 10 reps
00:44:41.600 on it.
00:44:42.760 That's, that's how I like, I don't walk on the treadmill and I don't like do a bunch
00:44:47.080 of stretching or a bunch of mobility work or stuff like that.
00:44:49.900 I walk in, whatever exercise I'm doing first, I find that machine and then I put a load on
00:44:54.480 and I can do maybe eight reps with it.
00:44:56.280 And that's how I get started.
00:44:57.000 Speaking of programming, there's all different ways you could skin this cat, but just like
00:45:02.020 for a starter hypertrophy program, what do you typically recommend?
00:45:06.140 Do you recommend doing upper, lower, body parts?
00:45:09.480 How do you like to do it for beginners?
00:45:12.040 So I actually, I am starting a brand new, it's a beginner program.
00:45:17.340 It's a tier one and a tier two based program under my train hero groups.
00:45:22.260 And we'll be starting that next month.
00:45:24.660 And so the first way I would actually start that out is something as simple as three days
00:45:30.460 a week, full body, because the beginners are still going to grow great off that kind of
00:45:34.640 stuff.
00:45:35.220 And you don't need a massive amount of variety.
00:45:38.720 And then to split it up from there would be more like a tier two after maybe six months
00:45:43.900 where you go to like an upper, lower type split.
00:45:46.120 And you start incorporating a few new exercises than you, what you were doing.
00:45:51.660 And for beginners, that's going to be as much as you're really going to need.
00:45:55.280 You don't need a vast array of trying to hit iliac lats and, you know, some like the
00:46:02.000 causal division of the pecs and all that kind of stuff.
00:46:04.460 Beginners don't need that kind of stuff.
00:46:05.740 They're going to grow a really nice foundational level of muscle mass from using, you know,
00:46:12.580 a select number of motions within the program.
00:46:15.720 And that doesn't have to be squat, bench, deadlift.
00:46:17.920 Like that's we, Chris and I just did the exercise essential books and we do not have
00:46:22.160 squat, bench, and deadlift in there anywhere.
00:46:24.420 Well, speaking of exercise selection, something that you talk a lot about on your socials is
00:46:29.320 the benefits of machines.
00:46:31.640 And for a while, I think a lot of people said, you know, oh, you know, machines aren't good.
00:46:35.860 You need to use free weights.
00:46:37.200 That's the way to go.
00:46:38.240 But you argue that free weights have their limitations when it comes to hypertrophy.
00:46:42.860 What's going on there with the free weights versus machines?
00:46:47.580 Well, I'm always going to choose a more stable exercise over a less stable exercise.
00:46:53.800 Now over time, as we talked about forward strength stuff, you develop the coordination and stuff.
00:46:59.320 By, you know, that you get, I mean, you'll develop that ability to be more stable with an unstable
00:47:05.740 exercise, but you're still always going to have that stability component challenge with
00:47:12.120 a less stable exercise.
00:47:14.160 So if you think about it, if you're always going to have a little bit higher of basically
00:47:19.960 agonist activation, the prime mover that you're using in a motion with a stable exercise, then
00:47:27.520 it's always going to be slightly better than using a less stable exercise because I'm just
00:47:32.820 removing a component that is a limiter component for that muscle group.
00:47:37.780 So if I'm doing dumbbell, why would I do a dumbbell bench press when I can do a machine
00:47:41.080 bench press and load the pecs better and not worry about stabilizing the dumbbells?
00:47:45.180 To me, that's a very simple way to kind of explain that.
00:47:49.520 So if I'm not trying to, you know, develop a, like to me, like after all these years,
00:47:55.460 that's one of the things I look back now and go, can you use dumbbells and grow muscle?
00:48:00.140 A hundred percent.
00:48:01.200 Absolutely.
00:48:01.760 And I, that always gets taken way out of it.
00:48:03.540 As soon as you say on social media, I think a machine press for the chest is, is better
00:48:08.660 than like a dumbbell press.
00:48:10.860 Somebody will go, so you're saying dumbbells are worthless.
00:48:13.180 I'm like, yeah, that's totally what I said.
00:48:14.960 I a hundred percent said they're worthless.
00:48:16.940 No, I just said, I think this is probably a better option because I'm removing that stability
00:48:22.200 and coordination component.
00:48:23.680 So if I don't need that, I'm not trying to develop that.
00:48:26.240 And I'm actually just trying to load my pecs.
00:48:28.160 Why would I choose a motion that's less stable?
00:48:31.200 I can see this with the squat particularly.
00:48:32.900 That's, that's, I never liked the squat.
00:48:35.380 I still don't like the squat because it's a high skill.
00:48:38.860 It's a high skilled lift.
00:48:40.080 Cause you just, you're thinking about so many things like, all right, I'm going down.
00:48:42.940 I don't think that people think about the fact, I don't care what anybody says.
00:48:48.140 One of the things I think why you need so many warmup sets for your squat is for that
00:48:52.520 reason.
00:48:52.860 I think it's a much higher skill lift than people give it credit for.
00:48:56.500 Don't give it credit for whichever way you'd like to phrase that.
00:48:59.040 I do agree.
00:49:00.360 I like when I was squatting, it was the one motion.
00:49:03.840 Like when you're bench pressing, you go in, you set up, however you're bench pressing,
00:49:08.040 you've probably got it nailed down.
00:49:09.480 And getting set up and doing your warmups and then getting to a top sub-inch press doesn't
00:49:13.000 take a whole lot of warmup sets.
00:49:15.160 Doesn't take a whole lot of thought once you kind of get your motion down.
00:49:17.720 But I squatted for decades and decades and I still had plenty of days where going in
00:49:22.940 squatting would feel off or weird or not quite perfect.
00:49:25.860 So you probably had those, right?
00:49:27.540 Yeah.
00:49:27.820 And I think it's actually a far more coordinated exercise than people want to talk about.
00:49:33.140 And one of the things you can put somebody on a hack squat and get their feet in the
00:49:37.280 right place, they can go in and repeat that every single time.
00:49:39.800 And it feels the same every single time because you've removed all of those coordination
00:49:43.700 and stability problems with the squat.
00:49:46.260 So why would I choose a squat if I'm trying to load my quads when I can get on a hack
00:49:49.820 squat and know exactly where I need to put my feet in the same position every time and
00:49:53.840 get the same kind of output every time?
00:49:55.860 Why would I choose something different or a pendulum or a leg press or whatever, right?
00:50:00.240 So I've removed that whole coordination component.
00:50:03.540 And now I'm like, oh, I just want to load that tissue.
00:50:05.720 So now if I'm using a very highly stable exercise, I can just load that tissue and get in almost
00:50:10.260 like perfect position every time with a lot of thought going into it.
00:50:13.420 Okay.
00:50:13.540 So yeah, if you're looking at hypertrophy, machines are going to be the way to go because
00:50:16.820 of the stability aspect.
00:50:18.720 And you're able to focus on the mechanical tension instead of thinking about, oh my gosh,
00:50:23.340 I'm shifting here to the right.
00:50:25.000 I need to like, you don't have to worry about that.
00:50:27.160 How many times?
00:50:27.820 Yeah.
00:50:28.160 I think that's a good discussion, right?
00:50:30.220 Because that's a really great one.
00:50:31.640 I haven't squatting forever, but you're bringing up a lot of stuff I remember thinking about.
00:50:34.160 You go in on that squat day and then for whatever reason, like, why did I shift to the left there?
00:50:39.080 Why did I, you know, why is this feeling off?
00:50:41.400 Why is this wonky and that kind of stuff?
00:50:43.440 Well, if I'm just trying to load my quads, why am I worried about all that stuff?
00:50:46.760 You know what I mean?
00:50:47.340 Like if I have a pendulum or I have a hack squat that's right there, or even a Smith machine
00:50:51.480 squat, I think a Smith machine squat is even better because in a Smith machine squat,
00:50:55.860 you can get set up in the exact same position over and over and over again.
00:50:59.400 Like you're not having to think about it.
00:51:01.260 In a leg press, if you're exactly where your feet need to be, you can get set up there
00:51:04.540 over and over and over again.
00:51:05.720 You don't have any of these things.
00:51:07.680 Now, something could feel off or wonky that day because of overuse, or maybe you did something
00:51:12.820 the previous day, or you pulled something in a workout.
00:51:15.000 But I'm saying from the aspect of doing the motion, I think that the squat is really far
00:51:19.720 down on the list for being good for hypertrophy.
00:51:23.040 And, but that's not to say, like, let's say a guy's listening, he has a garage gym and he
00:51:26.020 wants to do hypertrophy.
00:51:26.960 It's like, you can still squat and you can do it for hypertrophy.
00:51:30.400 It's just, you know, it would be easier if you had a hack squat machine or a leg press.
00:51:34.780 Oh, totally.
00:51:35.220 Like, I think people conflate that, right?
00:51:37.280 With me, again, saying something's useless, worthless, whatever.
00:51:40.340 I'm like, I'm not saying that.
00:51:41.460 I'm saying if I have a list of druthers, then, and I have a long list and people say you can
00:51:47.420 pick from whatever you want to, the actual, like a barbell squat is pretty low down the list.
00:51:53.380 So, I mean, it'd be, it'd be like, you know, a pendulum squat, a good hack squat, a Smith
00:51:58.880 machine squat, a leg press.
00:52:01.940 And, you know, then you had to get into something like a safety bar, heel elevated squat.
00:52:06.200 Now we're talking about quads here, right?
00:52:07.800 So all of these things have context.
00:52:09.300 So it's basically down there around fifth on the list.
00:52:12.740 And then it even needs what I'd consider like a special bar and heel elevation.
00:52:16.120 Now that's for quads.
00:52:17.240 Now, if I was doing something, I just wanted to do a lower body exercise where I'm getting
00:52:21.640 the adductors and I'm getting the quads and I'm getting some glutes, then I could do something
00:52:25.540 like a low bar squat with a nice forward lean angle.
00:52:28.700 You know, I could get deep into the squat.
00:52:30.700 I'm not overthinking it.
00:52:32.460 I'm just like, Hey, I'm just doing a squat pattern.
00:52:34.760 I'm loading everything that's going to be involved in it.
00:52:36.720 But if we're talking about like hypertrophy and we're talking about, I would just want
00:52:40.700 to load this particular tissue and I'm trying to take my physique to the next level.
00:52:44.640 I do think those kinds of little nuances matter over a long period.
00:52:48.760 Do they matter for beginners as much?
00:52:50.240 No, not really.
00:52:50.820 Okay.
00:52:51.180 So exercise selection for hypertrophy, that's your goal.
00:52:54.200 Machines are going to be optimal, but you can still get it with dumbbells or barbells.
00:52:58.440 Even the cable machines, you use a lot of the cable stuff as well.
00:53:01.580 I use more cables now, I would say probably for mainly arm work, delt work, doing a lateral.
00:53:07.480 I love the line cable laterals.
00:53:09.460 That's actually a shout out to Joe Bennett, who I think came out with those.
00:53:13.460 That is the, honestly, in my opinion, the best lateral for the lateral deltoid exercise
00:53:18.960 that you can do.
00:53:19.720 I like machine laterals too now.
00:53:22.960 I used to not like those, but I've actually, mainly that was because there was a multitude
00:53:26.920 of those that sometimes do give my left shoulder problem.
00:53:29.800 I have a subluxation in my left shoulder.
00:53:32.240 It's basically got a certain amount of separation in the GH joint that it's caused by, I think
00:53:39.080 it was in a football injury.
00:53:40.880 Some of the lateral machines cause me pain and some don't.
00:53:44.300 So I kind of shit on them for quite a while, but I can actually get set up in some of them
00:53:48.960 now.
00:53:49.520 Not all of them, but most of them, to where they always cause me pain.
00:53:53.260 I do like those too.
00:53:54.040 They're highly stable.
00:53:54.940 You're doing abduction.
00:53:56.420 But the lying cable lateral, I like the most because there's a little bit of that freedom
00:54:01.660 of movement that gives my shoulder the least amount of problems.
00:54:04.380 And that's kind of the, also, that plays a factor in with everyone too, is your structure
00:54:08.100 and then your own injury potential or your injury history or your injury potential or
00:54:13.440 any of that kind of stuff.
00:54:14.120 So if somebody's like, every time I do this motion, this causes me pain.
00:54:18.620 If I can look at it and see maybe if there's something wrong in their mechanics that's causing
00:54:22.020 the problem.
00:54:22.540 But for some people, some stuff just hurts, right?
00:54:25.400 Like there's, there's not always like if somebody goes, well, you're doing this wrong
00:54:29.920 because it bothers your shoulder.
00:54:31.380 I'm like, no, it bothers my shoulder because I have, I've had injuries in that shoulder.
00:54:36.060 Yeah.
00:54:36.160 So there's certain movements that just bother it.
00:54:38.340 So those are things that take it to account too.
00:54:40.480 Right.
00:54:40.620 You got to work around those injuries.
00:54:41.960 Okay.
00:54:42.240 So let's do a recap here of what we talked about today.
00:54:45.200 If you want to train for hypertrophy, like if you want to get your muscles big, the key
00:54:48.920 is to achieve mechanical tension during your working set.
00:54:52.680 That happens when you train to failure or close to it.
00:54:57.640 And to achieve hypertrophy, you don't need as much volume as you might think.
00:55:01.180 If you're using lighter weight, you're going to have to do more reps.
00:55:04.140 But if you're using heavier weight, you can get hypertrophy with just a five to six reps.
00:55:08.900 So yeah, you don't have to go to the gym for hours and thrash yourself all the time to
00:55:13.600 get huge.
00:55:14.340 Well, Paul, this has been a great conversation.
00:55:16.300 Where can people go to learn more about what you do?
00:55:18.600 You can find me everywhere.
00:55:19.700 If you type in lift, run, bang.
00:55:21.060 I have said this on my own podcast so many times, I really want to change my name because
00:55:26.460 a lot of people are like, oh, when I started the blog and that name, I just wanted to use
00:55:31.660 something that was catchy.
00:55:32.860 And people always think the bang part has to do with sex.
00:55:35.300 It has nothing to do with sex.
00:55:37.420 So the idea behind when I started lift, run, bang was, you know, you're lifting, you're
00:55:41.800 doing some conditioning.
00:55:42.720 And then the bang was, I was a computer programmer and engineer for 15 years.
00:55:49.440 So the bang was what we call a variable in programming language.
00:55:54.400 So it could mean whatever you wrote in the program.
00:55:58.920 So a variable would be one word that would contain a string of commands within that one
00:56:04.480 word.
00:56:04.800 So within the program, if you call that one word, it would execute that string of commands.
00:56:09.020 So lift, run, and then the bang, the bang was a variable.
00:56:13.800 So what's your string of commands that are, do you execute in your life that you're passionate
00:56:17.720 about?
00:56:18.000 Whether it's being a dad or whether, you know, whether you're into jujitsu, whether you're
00:56:22.520 into, you know, like coaching little league or something, but some variable in your life
00:56:27.560 that is more than just like lifting weights and like doing cardio or whatever.
00:56:32.400 So that was the whole idea.
00:56:33.780 And I, like now people, I think just something as simple as like coach Carter would,
00:56:39.020 would be good or, or whatever.
00:56:41.100 But that was the whole premise behind it.
00:56:43.660 But if you type in lift, run, bang on pretty much all social media, you should find me in
00:56:47.500 some form or fashion.
00:56:49.720 I think the only place I don't go to anymore is Twitter.
00:56:52.760 Fantastic.
00:56:53.140 Well, Paul Carter, thanks for your time.
00:56:54.120 It's been a pleasure.
00:56:55.720 Absolutely, man.
00:56:56.320 I'm glad we finally got this done.
00:56:59.040 My guest today was Paul Carter.
00:57:00.460 You can find him across social media platforms at lift, run, bang.
00:57:03.780 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash hypertrophy.
00:57:06.520 We find links to resources.
00:57:07.940 We delve deeper into this topic.
00:57:16.440 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.
00:57:19.440 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com.
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00:57:39.700 And until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to not listen to AOM podcast,
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