The Art of Manliness - The Secret World of Bare-Knuckle Boxing

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:11.260 have you ever noticed the guy in a fighting stance on the art of manliness logo that's not

00:00:16.120 just some random symbol it's an actual dude john l sullivan the greatest bare knuckle boxer of the

00:00:21.380 19th century while most people think bare knuckle boxing came to an end during sullivan's era

00:00:26.160 in fact it never entirely went away in his new book bare knuckle state and bonner charts bare

00:00:31.640 knuckle boxing's rise fall and resurgence as well as the improbable story of its modern chapters

00:00:36.660 winning as champion taylor show state and describes bare knuckle boxing's incredible popularity a

00:00:41.800 century ago and why glove boxing took its place while bare knuckle got pushed into a shadowy

00:00:46.440 illicit underground state and takes us into that secret circuit which still exists today

00:00:50.700 revealing the dark sweaty basements and bars where modern bare knuckle fights take place

00:00:54.440 and the ancient code of honor that structures them and staten introduces us to a dominant figure in

00:00:59.020 that world bobby gunn an undefeated bare knuckle fighter who combines a love of faith family and

00:01:04.060 fighting and has helped turn bare knuckle boxing to what is now the world's fastest growing combat sport

00:01:08.640 after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash bare knuckle

00:01:12.420 all right state and bonner welcome to the show thanks for having me thrilled to be here so you

00:01:28.400 got a new book out called bare knuckle bobby gunn 73 and 0 undefeated a daddy dream a fight like you've

00:01:34.420 never seen and this is a book about a bare knuckle boxer in the 21st century named bobby gunn you spent

00:01:40.720 several years of your life following this guy to get a look at what his life is like when did you

00:01:47.620 first learn about bobby gunn and what drew you to this story yeah as a journalist i have to tell you

00:01:53.900 it's one of the most inspiring and heartbreaking stories i've ever come across you know it's a real life

00:01:59.340 rocky story ultimate underdog tale bobby gunn i first saw a blurb about him in 2011 he was a fighter

00:02:08.360 in the first bare knuckle boxing match in the united states in 120 years it was held on an indian

00:02:15.300 reservation in arizona this is the first sanctioned bare knuckle yeah it was it was sanctioned outside of

00:02:22.600 a state boxing association commission it was actually a tribe that was able to do it so he he

00:02:29.400 won that it got a little bit of attention i was working as a magazine editor and writer at gq in

00:02:34.400 new york at the time and looked him up he was across the river in new jersey and went and met him and you

00:02:40.520 know it was amazing he had overcome an abusive childhood his father was having him fight grown men

00:02:46.640 in parking lots when he was 11 years old basically waking him up in the middle of the night

00:02:50.640 to fight guys he'd bring home from the bar to win cash and he had you know had a great run as a

00:02:57.180 professional boxer and then gotten into this underground illegal world of bare knuckle boxing

00:03:01.720 to make money so he could put his seven-year-old daughter through private school that story alone

00:03:07.180 just it was fascinating that he was able to rise from that abusive childhood to become a champion and

00:03:12.340 you know everything he did he always thought of his daughter right before he stepped in the ring

00:03:16.580 and that just really resonated with me what i love about this book is that you used gun to explore

00:03:23.340 a culture that you didn't think existed anymore and it's a culture that goes back to the 19th century

00:03:30.160 and i mean you even say it goes back even further i mean this can say it goes back to odysseus like

00:03:35.500 these guys you know bobby gunn and these other underground boxers they've got more in common 0.81

00:03:40.460 with achilles and odysseus than they do with us and i want to talk about this culture today because

00:03:47.440 i think it's just really fascinating people might be surprised to hear that bare knuckle boxing

00:03:51.600 still exists in the 21st century and understand the state of the sport today i think you've got to do

00:03:56.760 a little bit of history so take us back to the beginning of bare knuckle boxing in the united states

00:04:01.480 what were those first matches like yeah bare knuckle boxing it'll surprise people it was one of the

00:04:07.200 most popular sports in the united states in the 1800s as bare knuckle boxing horse racing and baseball

00:04:13.520 those three sports garnered the most attention the most headlines as you would imagine the rules sound

00:04:20.480 exactly like what they are it's stand-up boxing you know no grappling usually and just without gloves

00:04:26.300 or they had very light gloves on and it was always a means for people typically immigrants people in

00:04:34.020 in dire situations to raise themselves up in society in the book bare knuckle

00:04:40.340 we recount a story of tom molyneux who was an enslaved person in virginia became renowned fighting on plantation

00:04:47.920 bouts won so much money that his master freed him and he then made his way to be a dock worker in new york city

00:04:56.240 got on a boat traveled to england fought a british champion overseas made headlines overseas

00:05:02.180 another example is from the film gangs of new york the martin scorsese film the daniel day lewis

00:05:08.920 character bill the butcher yeah they do depict a bare knuckle fight in that movie bill the butcher

00:05:14.160 himself was a renowned bare knuckle boxer and he and a lot of other irish immigrants were able to

00:05:20.380 translate that fame in the bare knuckle ring to political power definitely the most famous example

00:05:26.720 of a bare knuckle fighter in the 1800s he was the lebron of his day and also the you know logo of art of

00:05:34.460 manliness podcast was john l sullivan you know he was the son of an irish immigrant a plumber as a

00:05:40.400 teenager he was working with his dad and working on scalding pipes in boston saw an invite to come

00:05:48.460 in and challenge a famed boxer on a whim you know took off his coat put on these thin gloves and

00:05:55.220 knocked the guy out and then he left the world of plumbing behind and became extremely famous there

00:06:02.120 were songs written about him he was on a traveling circuit he would wake up eat a dozen raw oysters

00:06:08.040 every morning drink some whiskey and basically go town to town and it would invite anyone to come in

00:06:13.900 and try to to beat him nobody could it culminated in in the most famous fight of the 1800s the most

00:06:21.140 famous bare knuckle fight which was him against jake kilrain he was a boston mill worker and it's that

00:06:27.680 had a really interesting backstory because sullivan had actually inadvertently insulted the publisher

00:06:33.680 of the national police gazette richard fox very popular newspaper at the time sullivan was dining at a

00:06:40.600 restaurant in new york city fox the publisher a very powerful man saw uh sullivan who was known as

00:06:47.100 the boston strong boy invited to his table sullivan said no the publisher should walk to him and that

00:06:53.620 petty encounter led to a years-long feud so richard k fox basically you know put the money up for jake

00:07:01.100 kilrain to fight john l sullivan and it became a duel of newspapers because a rival newspaper got behind

00:07:08.140 sullivan they would each depict you know weekly updates on these guys training and you know kill

00:07:14.640 rain doing things like training while cradling babies you know they showed sullivan abusing dogs

00:07:20.620 drinking at taverns it ended up the two of them met in uh 1889 and they did a fight in front of 5 000

00:07:29.000 fans legendary gunslinger bat masterson was there i think it's important to note that this was still

00:07:36.160 illegal i mean because it was gambling it was you know it varied state to state but the newspapers still

00:07:43.700 covered it but it was done undercover there was a special train in new orleans where the fighters got

00:07:49.340 on and the fans in the early morning took them to a secret location this lumber farm in mississippi

00:07:54.780 and it was a epic fight between these two guys again this was covered around the world in newspapers it was

00:08:00.320 two hours 76 rounds they had spiked cleats on you know this one was going a bit beyond just the simple

00:08:08.240 boxing rules i mean they were you know stepping on each other and it was a twenty thousand dollar purse

00:08:14.140 which was in addition to a thousand dollar side bet between the two man two men which is which is a

00:08:18.800 huge amount of money and john l sullivan knocked him out and became famous what's interesting is this

00:08:24.360 opponent jake kilrain was actually the great great grandfather of colin kilrain who ended up becoming

00:08:31.120 head of who's a navy seal and head of nato special operations command and uh you know it's funny that

00:08:37.860 admiral would cite that fight in his family lineage but john l sullivan then kind of went underground in

00:08:45.020 terms of his drink and his health after that and kind of following his disillusion personally bare knuckle

00:08:52.000 also went underground marcus at queensbury rules came up loved boxing overtook bare knuckle is the

00:08:58.780 preeminent sport and it all went into the illegal circuit where it stayed for a hundred years okay so

00:09:05.080 yeah bare knuckle boxing it was it was the thing it was so big in the 19th century uh they called it the

00:09:10.540 manly arts and yeah john l sullivan was just he was like the first mega celebrity in the world i think

00:09:16.140 people really don't appreciate how big the sport was and i just said the fights were different back then

00:09:21.280 like you said that fight with john l sullivan and jake kilrain it lasted 76 rounds and it wasn't the

00:09:27.720 set you know timed rounds we have today i mean these guys would fight a little bit and then they'd take a

00:09:31.960 break and these could go on for hours absolutely and it's quite different from the bare knuckle fights

00:09:38.020 i personally witnessed which are usually very very fast now but back then i mean look they would just

00:09:43.860 create a makeshift ring it was till the other guy basically got knocked out or just couldn't stand

00:09:49.500 up anymore and his team threw in the towel but they would just go at each other bleeding all over the

00:09:55.300 place go back to the side you know drink some whiskey get a pep talk and head back out there it was

00:10:02.140 lawless and the sport as you said it attracted a lot of people from the lower classes and typically

00:10:06.960 were immigrants so a lot of irish americans john l sullivan his parents were irish immigrants

00:10:11.620 if you saw the movie you know you mentioned gangs in new york irish immigrants there's bare knuckle

00:10:16.780 boxing another movie that features irish immigrants bare knuckle boxing remember that movie far and away 0.99

00:10:22.000 with tom cruise yep absolutely yeah what happened in america that caused glove boxing to take

00:10:28.700 president was this an attempt to make boxing more legitimate absolutely it was already coming up and

00:10:35.340 there were kind of the dueling arts they are different sports different sciences but essentially

00:10:41.120 bare knuckle boxing it's skin on skin it looks bad it gets bloody very quickly what's funny is the

00:10:49.580 science behind it so it's just like the difference between watching a rugby game and watching american

00:10:55.420 nfl rugby you know no helmets very little padding these guys are getting bloodied up very quickly but

00:11:03.420 they're not hitting each other as hard as they would if they were totally wearing helmets and thick pads

00:11:09.700 simply because they don't want to you know break their bones or hurt themselves too much if you think

00:11:15.220 about an nfl game we'll watch on a sunday afternoon you know your kids can watch it you're not seeing the

00:11:20.480 violence you're not seeing the deep impact but they're hitting each other 10 times as hard

00:11:24.440 as a rugby player that's the same difference between boxing and bare knuckle boxing fighters pull their

00:11:31.740 punches inherently just because they don't want to break their hands on someone else's bones but it looks

00:11:38.240 more bloody because it's skin on skin and it's a lot of superficial blood and cuts you know none of

00:11:45.360 neither one of these sports are obviously quote unquote safe but bare knuckle boxing according to

00:11:51.360 preliminary studies does result in less concussions in the 1800s bare knuckle boxing was on its way out

00:11:58.520 in terms of a rise in religion and you know being upright in society and the guys this thing's just too

00:12:06.240 brutal they were also trying to tamp down on gambling it's always been a heavy gambling sport and so

00:12:12.900 boxing you know it looked cleaner it looked better it was a little bit better product i think to sell to

00:12:19.200 a wider audience and that's why it rose up and bare knuckle receded into the shadows yeah during that

00:12:26.660 time the late 1800s you saw the professionalization of sports boxing baseball football there was these

00:12:33.620 movements i think you probably attribute it to the progressive movement as well if we're going to try

00:12:37.600 to make things safer more bureaucratic more efficient we're going to apply principles of industrial management

00:12:44.060 to sport which yeah as you said we can make it just safer when people can feel better about taking part or

00:12:50.200 watching them yeah absolutely it's it's funny though you got to keep in mind you know i spoke with one state

00:12:56.380 boxing commissioner and he pointed out to me you know the boxing and fight world in general it's a

00:13:02.080 billion dollar sport run like a five and dime store you know there's no nfl there's no mlb there's no nba

00:13:08.220 there's no national sanctioning body of the sport of boxing you know it is still run essentially like

00:13:15.460 it was 200 years ago which is basically by each state you know you have these state boxing commissions

00:13:21.440 they get to decide what the rules are what is allowed what is not obviously there's there's a broader

00:13:27.640 coalition of these groups that have influenced nationally but it's very different i mean it is

00:13:33.440 still run basically by these state fiefdoms it's it's an unusual sport to this day because states can

00:13:40.520 basically dictate how they want to operate it okay so glove boxing took precedence during the 20th

00:13:46.480 century and then bare knuckle boxing it never went away just went back to the underground and like it went

00:13:52.340 really underground people just stopped talking about it who organized these bare knuckle matches

00:13:57.840 throughout the 20th and 21st centuries yeah i mean it was fascinating this was a secret world

00:14:05.360 totally underground i mean really underground if you think about it before cell phones and internet

00:14:10.480 but it was basically run by organized crime so it's not really that different from this varies by

00:14:17.460 region it's a blood sport so you know you can think of dog fighting you can think of cock fighting

00:14:22.680 you can think of you know pitting grown men against each other and it was all run usually by local

00:14:30.000 organizers a lot of it was in new york city was the epicenter but basically with bobby gunn he was

00:14:37.760 backed by the irish mob so they would basically stake him in new york in fights along the east coast

00:14:44.520 and pit him against fighters from rival organized criminal groups to where you know he would go to

00:14:51.520 chinatown and fight someone that that group had brought in he'd go to sheep's head bay and fight

00:14:58.840 someone that the russian mob had brought in he'd go to boston and fight someone the latin kings had

00:15:04.440 brought in so it was always you know that that would vary situation situation motorcycle gangs would hold

00:15:11.120 but basically these were matches where you know bobby gunn didn't have ten thousand dollars to put up

00:15:17.900 in a match he would be staked by organized crime and then he would go to his buddies and gather money

00:15:24.560 for a purse put in a little bit of his own and everybody would put in their cash you know the day of a fight

00:15:30.600 they would give their stake money just a big wad of loose bills to the house you know and there i talked

00:15:37.360 with one promoter of these and he would carry around a contraption he called the cage which was a

00:15:42.740 portable metal safe with holes drilled into its lining you know he'd go to a venue open the safe

00:15:48.700 screw it onto joists in a wall or shoot it with bolts in a concrete floor put the prize money in it and

00:15:54.900 close it up but it was funny he said you know it's you know you would think that these might be prime

00:15:59.700 targets with all this loose money for being robbed but everybody was packing heat at these things

00:16:05.140 and no one's going to come in and stick each other up so they were kind of these honor systems kind of

00:16:09.700 these uh switzerland type encounters where organized criminals could come together and have fun on a

00:16:17.100 underground prize fight match in a truce-like state and pit their fighters against her and that's how 1.00

00:16:22.720 bobby gunn came to rise to prominence what are the rules of these modern day bare knuckle bouts

00:16:28.160 yeah so typically with bare knuckle boxing it's going to be just stand-up boxing rules applied to

00:16:36.580 a gloveless match so there's no hitting below the belt no grappling no getting someone to the ground

00:16:42.280 no kicking no gouging of eyes that kind of thing there are fights though and this this is typically

00:16:49.920 established up front where it's called rough and tumble and rough and tumble means all rules are off

00:16:56.240 it's like you know i have no disrespect for you i'm going to do anything it takes to take you down 0.70

00:17:01.620 whether that's ripping off your ball sack gouge literally gouging out your eye biting off an ear

00:17:06.920 all of these kind of things it's it's just a it's it's literally a lawless situation now those are rare

00:17:13.200 but bobby gunn has fought in those sometimes these fights will devolve into that i think pretty rarely

00:17:19.520 that'll be the setup going into one and we can talk more about that later but in general these are

00:17:25.480 run as straightforward boxing matches without gloves and they're just bloodier and it's a it's

00:17:30.840 a faster situation in the 1800s of course these things would go for much longer these days it's

00:17:37.020 not about putting on a show as much these fighters want to get in and out bobby gunn was never that

00:17:42.120 worried going into the ring against an opponent but these situations were dangerous he had guns pulled

00:17:46.700 on him multiple times he wanted to win the money quickly and get out so he would really focus his shot

00:17:52.680 and try to take someone out as quickly as possible take his bag of cash and go and you had to make it

00:17:57.860 fast too because you're always concerned about the police showing up and so you had to get out of

00:18:02.160 there as quickly as possible if that did happen absolutely fighters would often you know you're not

00:18:07.700 going in wearing a cape and your boxing trunks and shoes you know bobby bobby always wore jeans

00:18:16.140 sneakers black t-shirt that was how he rolled because he would usually come in off of working asphalt

00:18:22.040 to do these things but also that was so if the cops did come which i recount stories of cops coming

00:18:28.840 everybody runs and you don't want to be the guy who was clearly the guy you know in the ring fighting

00:18:35.380 and i say ring i mean look sometimes there are makeshift rings oftentimes these are held up into fights

00:18:40.580 in an auto body shop in the middle of the day they just close shop and everyone knows to come

00:18:45.360 in the back and do this while you're they're fighting around oil puddles and uh you know cars up on

00:18:51.220 jacks they fought in the back of gyms in the hell's kitchen he'd go through an irish bar that was 0.81

00:18:56.540 owned by the irish mafia through a back door down into a basement and that would have been a fight

00:19:02.800 arena you know sometimes it's in a parking garage so it's not like there's a ring and these things

00:19:08.180 come together very quickly very late and you just got to be in the know to get the invite what was it

00:19:13.880 like being at these fights was it i imagine because i remember you know when i was in high school you'd go

00:19:18.220 there'd be these fights you know kind of makeshift fights meet me after school at this park you'd be

00:19:23.440 circling around it was kind of as a bare knuckle bout and i remember being these things i always

00:19:27.660 kind of felt like this is kind of illicit i probably shouldn't be here but at the same time it was

00:19:31.820 really it was kind of exciting like the hairs on your neck would you know stand up and you're just

00:19:35.940 watching these guys just wallop each other did that happen to you when you went to these things

00:19:40.180 100 you know one person i remember one of the first fights i went to they were like this

00:19:45.220 it's cool because it's illegal so you know it was always frankly exciting i mean one of the first

00:19:51.340 fights i was working as an editor writer you know at conde nast i get a text on my phone this was i

00:19:58.740 don't know 2013 there's a fight happening in a few hours i got on a train i went to the location

00:20:05.620 i was then texted the address i went to the address and it was in the back of a gym and it was raining

00:20:12.960 and out walks bobby gunn with a t-shirt and he's holding a baseball bat just for security

00:20:18.040 another person david feldman who now runs the bare knuckle fighting championship basically came up

00:20:24.840 behind me and said if you put my name on this uh you won't write again so it was um it was frankly

00:20:31.520 kind of scary but i will say you go in and it's a small group of people and it's kind of hot it's kind

00:20:39.180 of sweaty and these you know i think that that fight it was a hell's angel versus a former marine

00:20:45.480 that was one of the bouts and you know these guys got into it pretty quickly the thing that hits you

00:20:51.560 is the sound there's nothing that resonates or makes it clear this is a totally different animal

00:20:57.460 from all fighting i've ever seen is the sound of skin on skin it's kind of a wet slap and you just

00:21:04.100 kind of feel it and you immediately see the blood and you know it's guys just moving around kind of

00:21:11.320 in a shadowy arena with people literally surrounding them holding up money and yelling and it was as

00:21:19.700 an adrenaline hit for sure no for sure there's a we interviewed uh john gotchell a long time ago he

00:21:27.140 wrote a book called why men fight and why we like to watch yeah and yeah he just talks about like even

00:21:32.660 though we in the 21st century and us and who live in the suburbs of the city we're like oh i'm

00:21:37.040 sophisticated i i'm above that there's still something inside of us that is drawn to that it's it's

00:21:42.760 exciting we're gonna take a quick break for your words from our sponsors

00:21:46.440 and now back to the show okay so let's talk about bobby gunn so this guy was born to be a bare knuckle

00:21:57.860 boxer because he was born into a family that belonged to an ethnic group called the irish

00:22:04.580 travelers tell us about the irish travelers yeah the irish travelers if you've seen the guy ritchie

00:22:11.240 film snatch the brad pitt character that's an irish traveler these are a group of people who were

00:22:19.240 basically ostracized from traditional society in ireland in the 17 1800s and were wanderers were

00:22:27.700 nomads they would go town to town do odd jobs live on the outskirts of a village and they were

00:22:33.680 ostracized you know it's kind of a love-hate relationship people in the town might need them 1.00

00:22:37.260 as day labor but they didn't really want them to assimilate they were always outsiders in their

00:22:42.360 culture they they revered two things which was religion and fighting so i interviewed john

00:22:49.280 steigles who was a priest in memphis catholic priest who worked closely with the traveler society there

00:22:56.420 and they're very closed off they typically don't allow people in there's maybe an estimate of 10 000

00:23:01.280 of these people living in the united states but he gave me some insight on their religious outlook and

00:23:07.000 it's very rooted in you know old testament approach almost like a mystical christian outlook that

00:23:14.800 involves some druidism aspects from the old irish lore and bobby gunn would talk about this you know he

00:23:22.000 would recount stories of waking up to see an evil spirit in hard times of his life he's always thinking

00:23:28.040 about the devil he is extremely religious would lie prostrate on the ground before fights was not a

00:23:35.380 drinker smoker no tattoos did everything for his family but these people revered fighting and it was

00:23:42.780 an old testament eye for an eye outlook you know and and bobby gunn would say you know jesus was a banger

00:23:48.440 you know that guy had to take down a temple the money counters he wasn't some you know skinny wimpy guy

00:23:54.840 jesus was a was a fighter like that's that was his outlook on religion and fighting and fighting as you

00:24:00.700 would imagine for these people who are ostracized and marginalized iris travelers he makes his living

00:24:07.300 going basically door to door trying to do asphalt work left school at third grade so basically has

00:24:14.820 had no education which is why it's so important for him to put his daughter through school so he can

00:24:18.500 give her a better life but he just literally has had to fight for everything in his life and that's

00:24:24.420 pretty typical of the traveler community in general and these travelers the fighting not only do they 1.00

00:24:30.260 make money with the bare knuckle fighting but fighting for them as a way they could gain a reputation

00:24:35.800 gain status gain honor like it actually had stakes for their identity absolutely so if you i mean you

00:24:42.880 know it's very rare for travelers to have too much material wealth given their lifestyle and everything so

00:24:48.920 as you point out your ability to fight is truly a reflection as gunwood put it his bloodline his

00:24:55.660 heritage it's an oral history community stories are passed down from each other generation to

00:25:02.660 generation and in the book i write about how he recounts the exploits of his great great grandfather

00:25:07.700 who had come over and gained renown as a fighter you know he talks about how he fights now for his

00:25:15.640 family there's the particularly poignant scene where there is someone another traveler who is

00:25:21.100 bothering gun and bothering his family and bobby makes it a point to go to this man's dinner table

00:25:26.500 and his camper at night and calls him out in front of his family and he does this because he knows the man

00:25:32.840 will not fight him and he just shames him right there and like that alone bobby gun walks out but the man

00:25:39.960 has been shamed and basically shunned from the community in a sense because everyone now knows

00:25:45.020 he backed down from a fight and that's like the lowest toughest thing bobby could do to the man

00:25:51.560 because it's going to destroy his reputation so fighting is inherent to the iris travelers in terms of

00:25:57.020 their identity and their self-honor and their honor as a family and that's also what bobby grew up

00:26:02.180 being trained to fight for yeah and going back to this idea the connection between fighting and religion

00:26:07.700 the way you described it i kept on imagining it i kept on going back to gangs in new york if people

00:26:13.260 seen that movie they've probably seen that opening scene where there's the battle and it's it's like

00:26:18.260 that perfect combination of like this druidism and catholicism and fighting all combined into one and

00:26:25.260 you're when you watch it you're thinking man this is like something out of i'm reading a greek epic

00:26:29.960 here this is not this is not even the 19th century i mean this goes even further back and i kind of feel

00:26:35.560 like bobby gunn and these irish travelers they still have that mentality they absolutely do i mean they're

00:26:42.320 like modern day spartan warriors that's what bobby gunn's son he would talk about the film 300 and

00:26:48.920 that he related to that because you know the children are typically pulled out of school by

00:26:54.040 middle school they don't want them to assimilate with broader culture and their culture is entirely 0.76

00:26:59.100 revolving around the world of fighting training to fight and religion and you know it's not there's

00:27:05.100 nothing skeptical about it there is nothing ironic i mean bobby gunn devoutly believes in you know jesus

00:27:13.120 is his savior and sees absolutely no discrepancy between you know being a true believer and you know

00:27:22.040 basically punching pummeling a man to the ground tearing out an eyeball if he has to ripping a cheek

00:27:29.020 open you know i interviewed another fighter who said bobby guns is just like anyone no one i've ever met

00:27:34.820 he's like you know this guy would be in the ring telling me how to do dirty moves in a boxing match

00:27:40.600 that the ref won't catch how to elbow your opponent in the eye when the ref won't see it and then he

00:27:45.420 would afterwards take me aside and ask if i'd allow jesus into my heart so you know it's like um that

00:27:51.360 that is absolutely that 18th century 19th century mindset of devout religion devout purpose melded with

00:27:59.920 violence and having to fight for everything you have in this world that is what these guys live

00:28:05.400 still today i mean speaking of how insular they are the irish travelers they even have their own

00:28:10.020 language like it's a secret language yeah it's called can't and the joke is you can't understand us

00:28:16.280 but bobby gunn would always be slipping into this secret language with his family i spent years with him

00:28:24.520 and his family and his friends i was given unprecedented access into the traveler culture

00:28:30.460 went to fights traveled with these guys and yeah they would slip into this language all the time

00:28:37.200 that only they understood and then come back they also have a very unusual accent so the film you know

00:28:45.440 the dark knight tom hardy playing bane he based that accent which sounds very placeless on a famous

00:28:53.000 bare knuckle fighter in england and wales and he did that because it's just a rootless accent that's

00:29:00.300 hard to place it's very distinct you'll talk to travelers they kind of have an irish accent sometime

00:29:05.220 i mean it's it's really wild and it was unlike any other group of people i've ever seen they totally

00:29:11.200 distrust outsiders do not let people in and it was pretty unprecedented to get deeper with them

00:29:17.620 okay so the traveler culture fighting is a big part of it bare knuckle boxing is a part of that 1.00

00:29:22.640 a lot of famous glove boxers came from the irish travelers as well but i want to talk about this

00:29:28.080 you mentioned this the style of fighting that irish travelers often take part in it's the rough and tumble

00:29:34.140 and this is fighting not for sport this is fighting for honor and this is a fight where as you said

00:29:41.380 there's no rules and you mentioned some of the stuff that went on and that can go on in a rough and tumble

00:29:46.600 there's eye gouging you mentioned like you can rip people's ball sack off basically there's fish

00:29:52.860 hooking did you ever see any of these these rough and tumbles and tell us about bobby's guns experience

00:29:57.600 with these things yeah so bobby grew up being trained in three different fight disciplines number one was

00:30:04.400 boxing he was training from literally when he could walk to be a pro boxer his dream was always to be an

00:30:11.940 olympic boxer he was also trained in the art of bare knuckle boxing which as i said is pretty

00:30:17.640 straightforward in terms of boxing rules you just have to hit your opponent in different spots so

00:30:23.060 you don't break your hands you have to be mindful of that it's more about body shots liver shots

00:30:26.860 you know hitting someone on above their eyes to to bloody their vision kind of take the fight out of

00:30:33.040 them and then take them down with a straight shot to the liver or the heart that's a pretty pretty

00:30:37.940 good move but the third discipline was rough and tumble so gun's father robert williamson gun grew

00:30:44.600 up a street fighter he was in before the wwe he was a heel in a traveling wrestling circuit where these

00:30:52.480 guys would go town to town in a van get out you know do a show of course they had you know winners

00:30:58.780 and losers predetermined but they were beating the hell out of each other cutting themselves up with

00:31:02.780 razors for the crowd then going to the bars he was also a notorious drinker and would go out at night

00:31:09.480 and drink all night and then come back and go out to work so he he raised gun from an early age

00:31:15.540 in this dark arts of rough and tumble which basically is your honors on the line anything goes literally no

00:31:22.780 rules so robert would train gun as a young child he'd rub a leather belt over his eyebrows to toughen

00:31:29.140 him up he'd pour kerosene on his cuts to heal them more quickly he wanted to teach him how to take

00:31:34.800 pain so when bobby gun was a child his father would wrap a baseball bat with foam and duct tape

00:31:39.760 and hit him repeatedly in the midsection to harden his eyes i mean to harden his abs and that was just

00:31:45.940 something he grew up with so you know the the rough and tumble aspect is he for it's it's an abusive

00:31:52.700 childhood and gun will say it sounds crazy especially since his dad would wake him up to fight grown men in

00:31:58.220 parking lots for cash but he was always you know forging him to be the ultimate weapon to survive

00:32:05.440 in these rough and tumble fights and that's you know a lot of times it's out of disrespect it's called a

00:32:11.220 fair play fight which is like a typical bare knuckle bout but if they say rough and tumble that's like

00:32:17.040 you know i think you're a piece of shit i think you're a dog i want to take you down a lot of times 1.00

00:32:21.360 that's that's in the moment so that you could have come up to a fight and it could have been set this

00:32:26.840 traditional bare knuckle and your opponent says that at that point if you say no no i don't want

00:32:32.800 to do that everybody knows you got a little less heart they know you're a little scared so you really

00:32:37.620 don't want to back down from that so gun was in a lot of those fights sometimes though it's just

00:32:42.080 desperation bobby would sometimes be beating an opponent the guy would be on his last leg and you

00:32:47.980 know then he would do a dirty move but yeah you know bobby gun he would tell me many stories i mean

00:32:53.520 you know ripping a ball sack off told about one guy had a ring through his balls he ripped it out

00:32:59.540 he'd take a finger pull out an eyeball had an eyeball hanging from a guy's face during a fight he'd

00:33:05.760 bite an ear and nose off you know it was pretty crazy sticking a thumb in an eye he would describe it

00:33:12.000 hearing a rip when it comes out seeing a man squeal and and drop to the ground and you know bobby gun

00:33:19.140 will just say this stuff pretty matter of fact just after he's dropped his seven-year-old daughter

00:33:24.800 off at the private school she attends and he's like yeah this makes me sound like an animal but

00:33:30.440 someone was trying to do it to me and you just got to remember that you know bobby was a very gentle

00:33:34.980 soul he is and it was interesting and poignant because he would tell me his greatest fear was not

00:33:41.180 these dire situations where it was a the bloodiest battle you could imagine it was when he dropped his

00:33:47.240 daughter off at her school every morning and he always worried that her friends or her friends

00:33:52.200 parents would would know who he is and know the things he's done and that would somehow ostracize

00:33:57.500 or hurt his daughter that was what he constantly thought about he was just he you know he purposely

00:34:02.940 did not bring up his he has a son he purposely did not bring him up in the art of rough and tumble

00:34:07.120 our bare knuckle because he just didn't want him to enter this world but for bobby that's what he was

00:34:11.240 raised in yeah if we did a podcast back in 2013 with a professor of history dr lorian foote she wrote

00:34:20.420 a book called the gentleman in the roughs and it's about honor culture in the american north during the

00:34:26.940 civil war and she talked about how the officers they followed this sort of traditional honor code

00:34:33.220 very gentlemanly if you had a dispute with somebody you'd follow the rules of dueling it was like this

00:34:38.220 very drawn out process with all these formal rules but the infantrymen who were often irish immigrants

00:34:45.320 they used rough and tumbles to settle scores of honor i mean she talks about that too so this is

00:34:51.040 like a tradition that goes way back particularly in irish immigrant culture yeah there was there's

00:34:57.120 just briefly to speak on the honor aspect you know there was one story which was insane which was

00:35:02.820 a fighter i had to use a pseudonym but he was working as a prison guard in the 1990s at a maximum

00:35:09.540 security state prison along the mexican border and this is to the idea of bare knuckle fighting is honor

00:35:15.260 you know there was one guy in the yard who was constantly giving this guy who was the security guard

00:35:22.540 in the prison and it was a person within the mexican mafia there and you know he he had come up as a

00:35:29.820 fighter this prison guard he kind of knew the rules he basically told me it you know it's not the guards

00:35:34.200 that run the prison it's the inmates and you you gotta save face so one day he basically handed a note

00:35:40.980 to the person who was tormenting him and making fun of him all the time because he couldn't do anything

00:35:46.760 in public about it saying he wanted to fight him so they set up a fight that night the prison guard

00:35:53.100 brought one other prison guard he also brought two members of the aryan brotherhood this is a white guy 0.84

00:35:57.180 and it was uh two members of the mexican mafia who came to watch him and they got in a deep freeze

00:36:03.120 vegetable room in the commissary which basically a concrete floored windowless cage with crates of

00:36:08.960 produce around them they stripped to their pants this is a prison guard and a prisoner stripped to

00:36:14.140 their pants walked into this clang the shut door behind them and went to fighting and you know it was

00:36:20.340 going on for a while and kind of the secondaries were watching standing guard and at one point the

00:36:26.160 prisoner who had been tormenting this prison guard pulled a shank pulled a knife and stabbed him in

00:36:32.020 the leg he dropped but then at that point it was actually that prisoner's own people the mexican

00:36:39.200 mafia who ran in and pulled him out of them and started beating the hell out of the prisoner and they

00:36:46.940 they said we're done we're sorry that happened and it's because that person pulled a weapon it was

00:36:52.140 supposed to be a fair underground fight because he had violated the honor of the entire premise

00:36:57.660 it was actually their own man who was beaded so badly that that showed disrespect on his people

00:37:04.260 they had to ultimately transfer that prisoner away because they were worried about his life and that

00:37:09.420 prison guard after that never had any other trouble with any other inmates because he said they knew i was

00:37:15.100 a stand-up guy but that's i mean it's just an insane story of a prison guard you know knowing we have to

00:37:20.780 settle this dispute as men with a prisoner and they do it in a produce freezer and that just underscores

00:37:28.460 the honor aspect of this it's all about in this kind of world do you do what you say do you stand up for

00:37:34.520 what you believe in and you know who's gonna win at the end of the day yeah it's homeric it really is

00:37:39.900 so you mentioned bobby gunn trained to fight since he was a kid he was fighting grown men when he was

00:37:45.700 11 years old his dad was toughening him up with leather belts and kerosene and hitting him with a

00:37:51.380 baseball bat but he's he was trained not just in the rough and tumble in the bare knuckle but he was

00:37:56.040 trained to be a legitimate gloved boxer and he had a looked like he had a good career going for himself

00:38:02.720 when he was a young man what was his boxing career like yeah absolutely i mean bobby gunn is 73 and

00:38:09.060 in the bare knuckle circuit a living legend because of his boxing career i mean a lot of times you'd

00:38:16.020 have bouncers you could see the movie roadhouse you'd have ex-football guys you'd have military

00:38:21.060 soldiers i mean people who were tough and you know know how to throw a punch but not with the science

00:38:27.960 behind it so bobby came up you know literally from childhood fighting in pro boxing he fought in las

00:38:34.560 vegas trained under carl king who was don king's son but he never got his due in pro boxing he was

00:38:41.000 always kind of the punching bag the sparring guy was put in some bouts but never really got the shot

00:38:48.180 he wanted at 30 years old his mother died and that really broke bobby's heart and he'd had a hard time

00:38:56.520 in the pro boxing circuit until then and so he married and dropped from pro boxing at 30 and then was

00:39:04.320 living in the miami area and got invited to fight basically in an empty concrete apartment complex

00:39:12.760 that hadn't been finished a construction site on the beach that they were holding bare knuckle fights

00:39:17.260 in at night you know the surf roaring out there the the wind coming through and he just started dropping

00:39:22.700 guys and getting cash and secretly while he was married his wife didn't know this she thought he had

00:39:28.020 left the fight game was you know taking on these bare knuckle fights on the side for money

00:39:32.260 and that really started to expand his reputation but it was because he had the discipline from the

00:39:40.260 boxing world because he knew how to roll with a punch because he knew exactly you know he's like a

00:39:45.860 surgeon when he's sizing you up and he's again going to take you out in a way you can easily break your

00:39:51.260 hand on a man's head but if you hit them in certain spots if you get them bleeding cut their eyebrows get

00:39:57.520 blood in their eyes and then go in with a straight shot to the heart straight shot to the spleen it 0.96

00:40:02.880 just you know one guy says it made my ass feel like my ass fell out i mean it was like it's just it just 0.80

00:40:08.420 drops you and what was amazing though is for 10 years bobby gunn built up this underground fame you

00:40:16.220 know there was a boxing gym where he would train in new jersey where they moved to jersey and it had a big

00:40:22.540 landline phone in it i went to it ike and randy's gym in patterson new jersey you had to go through

00:40:27.940 chain link fence and barking pitbulls to get to it and people would call and they would leave a note

00:40:33.680 for bobby yo gun call this number and it would be the mobsters you know it would be different criminal

00:40:39.080 groups and they would leave a number for him to call and then that would set up a match and bobby got

00:40:45.480 so much notoriety from that at age 40 uh he had a son and he wanted to show his son that he could

00:40:53.080 still make it as a pro boxer that he wasn't just this underground thing and that's when he got back

00:40:58.020 into the pro boxing ring so how crazy is that he leaves it at 30 spends 10 years in the underground

00:41:03.740 bare knuckle boxing you know illegally becoming this legend and then uses that fame to basically return

00:41:11.080 to the pro boxing ring and he fought huge opponents thomas adamack roy jones jr all of these guys

00:41:17.260 respected and knew about his prowess in the underground he was kind of an oddity but you know

00:41:21.800 they were like this guy's a tough guy this guy's a stand-up guy you know he went to go fight thomas

00:41:26.640 adamack at a stadium in new jersey adamack has a ring of people around him handlers bobby gunn literally

00:41:35.060 drove up in his pickup truck uh had paint and asphalt on his clothes no like no secondary nothing just

00:41:42.120 walked into the arena put on some boxing trunks and went up in front of this guy and in front of

00:41:47.240 thousands of fans and like that's what he would do and he never you know he was a champion a welterweight

00:41:53.600 you know it was never the pro boxing career he envisioned for himself but he did have a very

00:41:59.180 successful run but ultimately it was his prowess in the underground that's made him famous

00:42:03.920 in some of these underground matches that he was in were crazy like there was one match it was

00:42:08.380 organized by you know organized crime so i think there's one with like the russian mafia he shows

00:42:15.400 up there's all these people in nice clothes and there's a mountain lion like in a cage and people

00:42:21.760 were just there to watch this guy fight and he was like fighting with this mountain lion roaring at

00:42:26.380 him it was he said it was really really really weird yeah i mean look gun never liked this stuff

00:42:32.200 and for him again he was always always nervous as you would imagine just about the atmosphere of

00:42:38.220 these things so that was actually a fight in a suburban mansion outside boston that was put on by a

00:42:43.520 faction of the irish mob and he got there and there was a caged mountain lion in the corner they did have

00:42:50.100 a makeshift ring in this big backyard set up on this estate and it was different mobs that have brought

00:42:57.260 in their different fighters gun beat his opponent he was waiting to get cash and then a fight broke

00:43:03.380 out in the crowd and gunshots were fired you know he got his money and left immediately the russian mob

00:43:09.600 story is probably as big as payday in an underground fight that was in outer brooklyn sheepshead bay

00:43:15.440 where there was a fight at the russian mob at a mansion there gun and several people i interviewed who

00:43:23.080 went with him he brought a team of his people described it as you know there was an elegant

00:43:27.500 party underway men and women and evening wear live music but then again you know he was the main

00:43:35.060 attraction of the evening and they had actually for that fight he said two russians came to meet him

00:43:41.960 at a starbucks in new jersey to discuss the fight to set the money you know he's like they were nice guys

00:43:48.820 it was going to be a lot of cash and he got there and they had brought in a fighter from russia gun

00:43:54.640 described him as huge six feet five he's just wearing shorts like basically ready for him remembered him

00:44:01.340 as being very hairy and there was a ring set up and the fight began and uh you know the guy they had

00:44:07.680 brought in what's interesting is even within kind of the bare knuckle world there's slightly different

00:44:13.420 disciplines and this guy fought a type of russian mma called sambo and apparently he said this guy

00:44:19.500 had also been a trainer in the russian army in the 1990s and he tried to to basically do some mma moves

00:44:26.080 on gun and then they said no no this was set as bare knuckle but the guy got frustrated and bobby kept

00:44:32.020 beating him and um you know eventually just beat him unconscious and a young guy who was in the crowd who

00:44:39.480 must have been upset he had bet money on that fighter took out a gun and put it to bobby's head

00:44:45.900 and bobby just stood there and apparently they all looked to kind of the older don and older gentleman

00:44:51.880 who ran the organization and he told the younger guy to put his gun down and pay bobby and and let him

00:44:57.940 go he'd want a fair fight and bobby walked out with fifty thousand dollars in a brown paper bag that night

00:45:04.320 but you know it's it's it's crazy all the stories he has you know going to chinatown going through

00:45:10.760 storefronts just like there's you know underground basements where there's all sorts of illegal poker

00:45:16.800 games and gambling he would describe going down one in chinatown and you know there was dog fights

00:45:22.640 going on in one room that you know chinese mob had brought in somebody from overseas and same kind

00:45:27.980 of thing they would just fight in these cramped spaces for cash but you know for bobby he was always at

00:45:33.060 the end of the day you know taking the money and just leaving immediately he's he said you know i'd

00:45:38.120 take my kids to a park the next day we'd go see a pixar movie at the mall you know he said his

00:45:43.600 grandfather said always leave the bums at the gym so he was very tough and very adept and obviously able

00:45:50.720 to survive and thrive in this very dangerous underground world but at the end of the day he just saw it as a

00:45:56.780 job and wanted to get back to his family yeah he's doing this for his family yeah and you said

00:46:01.800 sometimes you forget like he had a day job boxing was what he did at night his day job was asphalt you

00:46:07.880 know spreading asphalt that was what he did and so he was having to balance all that but he managed to

00:46:12.460 do it so what's the state of bare knuckle boxing today yeah well you know i i would not have

00:46:19.880 necessarily expected this when i was running around with these guys 12 15 years ago in these illegal

00:46:27.020 matches but it's bare knuckle boxing has become the fastest rising combat sport in the world and uh

00:46:33.720 you know it's funny there's there's a story in the book where bobby gunn goes to an irish mob fight

00:46:40.040 it wasn't a faction he knew well there were different factions and actually they brought over someone from

00:46:45.140 ireland he was there with david feldman david feldman was from philadelphia a boxing and nma promoter

00:46:51.460 also overcame an extremely abusive difficult childhood his dad was a mob backed boxing trainer

00:46:58.700 marty feldman kind of a similar situation to gunn he just grew up fighting himself and he met bobby gunn

00:47:05.300 and gunn introduced him to the bare knuckle world and david feldman you know was a fighter but he was

00:47:09.920 also a promoter so he had the business insight on this and said wow i think this could be a really

00:47:15.100 great product i think people would be interested in this sport seeing it come back to life

00:47:20.200 so david feldman who now has started the bare knuckle fighting championship which had its first

00:47:26.440 sanctioned fight in wyoming i was there for that that was the first state to sanction it and make

00:47:32.700 it legal bobby gunn was on that card and that first year they held a handful of events across the

00:47:39.160 united states because each he had to convince each state to sanction this thing they made five hundred

00:47:44.440 thousand dollars gross i was just with david feldman a few weeks ago they're now valued at

00:47:50.040 312 million and they're slated for 48 events this year in the united states and around the world so

00:47:56.040 uh it would not be coming back if it were not for bobby gunn and then david feldman has taken that

00:48:00.980 idea and turned it into a truly legitimate sport with the bare knuckle fighting championship and

00:48:06.380 they're just about to have their first event their biggest card yet in los angeles at knuckle mania

00:48:11.420 on april 27 all right so we might be seeing hbo matches here pretty soon yeah yeah it's definitely

00:48:17.560 on the upswing and you know my book chronicles the history the story of gunn but it also chronicles

00:48:23.860 the early day of this days of this modern resurgence and it's just a wild story well

00:48:28.700 state this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your work

00:48:32.600 absolutely the book is bare knuckle bobby gunn 73 and 0 undefeated a dad a dream a fight like you've

00:48:39.560 never seen available on amazon barnes and noble a bunch of places online and i'm on twitter state

00:48:46.800 and bonner fantastic well state and bonner thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:48:49.460 absolutely thanks so much for having me my guest day was state and bonner he's the author of the

00:48:54.920 book bare knuckle it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check out our show notes

00:48:58.820 at aom.is slash bare knuckle where you find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:49:03.020 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast the art of manless website has been around

00:49:14.600 for over 16 years now and the podcast for over 10 and they both have always had one aim to help men

00:49:20.840 take action to prove every area of their lives to become better friends citizens husbands and fathers

00:49:26.500 better men if you've gotten something out of the aom podcast please consider giving back by leaving

00:49:31.200 a review or sharing an episode with a friend as always thank you for the continued support until

00:49:35.900 next time i'm brett mckay reminding you to listen to aom podcast but put what you've heard into action

The Art of Manliness - April 24, 2024

The Secret World of Bare-Knuckle Boxing

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