The Secrets to Making the Perfect Burger
Episode Stats
Summary
When Chris Kroner took his first head chef position at an upscale restaurant, he inherited a menu which featured a popular burger. At first, he resented having to hold on to it, but then he began to wonder, and be captured by, how he might experiment with and elevate this sandwich standby. And thus began a decade-long obsession with creating the perfect, mouth-wateringly tasty burger. In his new book, A Burger to Believe In: Recipes and Fundamentals, Chris shares how he turned what he learned in his quixotic quest into the Bay Area s famous Kroner Burger, as well as accessible tips that can be used by the average backyard chef to level up their burger game.
Transcript
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I'm Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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When Chris Kroner took his first head chef position at an upscale restaurant, he inherited
00:00:16.760
At first, he resented having to hold on to it, but then he began to wonder, and be captured
00:00:20.420
by, how he might experiment with and elevate this sandwich standby, thus began a decade-long
00:00:24.640
obsession with creating the perfect, mouth-wateringly tasty burger.
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In his new book, A Burger to Believe in, Recipes and Fundamentals, Chris shares how he turned
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what he learned in his quixotic quest into the Bay Area's famous Kroner Burger, as well
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as accessible tips that can be used by the average backyard chef to level up their burger
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Chris shares some of those tips today on the show, beginning with the best kind of beef
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chuck to use in your burgers, and why the method you use to cook your burgers should vary depending
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We then get into why Chris likes to use dry-aged beef in his burgers, and how you can make your
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own, and the kind of mini-fridge you'd keep in a dorm room.
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From there, we delve into the optimal size and shape of the patty, Chris's surprising pick
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for buns, the ideal proportionality of toppings, and Chris's take on the desirability of putting
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We also get into our mutually conflicted feelings about pairing one's burger with french fries,
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and if you need to get your burger fixed on the run, what fast food chain Chris thinks
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash burger.
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I am doing great, because today we're talking about my favorite topic, hamburgers.
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I was actually thinking the other day about this.
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If someone said, like, I can never eat steak again, I'd be okay with that.
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But if someone said, Brett, you'll never be able to eat a hamburger for the rest of your
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I think a lot of other people feel the same way, too.
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I mean, it's, I feel like it's a, and I would say American, but I don't even know that that's
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It's just, it's so, such a ubiquitous food item that almost anyone has some kind of generally
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You can express a lot, and whether, and almost anyone who eats it will have some point of
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I mean, what was your, what's your first memory of eating a hamburger?
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I mean, I typically associate hamburgers, like grill, like, yeah, like Independence Day cookouts
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And I feel like that's, it's that way for most people.
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So, but it's, I mean, it's just a, you know, relatively easy to cook.
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And I mean, even in a lot of instances, like a, a bad hamburger isn't, it isn't terrible.
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So in your book, A Burger to Believe In, you walk people through on how to make your signature
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Kroner burger, but along the way, you give these great accessible tips for the home
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So on your hamburgers, you like to keep things simple with the toppings or tomato, lettuce,
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onion, pickle, but you spend a lot of time talking about the main event of a hamburger,
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You use dry aged beef in the Kroner burger, and we'll talk about why you do that here in
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a bit, but what's your go-to meat for a great work-a-day burger?
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I mean, I always recommend freshly ground beef, even if you, I mean, if you can, I feel like
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at this point in most, most places in the country, there's a grocery store with a butcher
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Ideally, if you can choose the pieces you want ground, and then I prefer a single grind,
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So when we set out to make this accessible for everyone, we went to the grocery store
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next to my house, a Whole Foods, a Albertsons, and just bought every variation of ground beef
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Packaged, frozen, fresh in the case, ground by their butcher, blah, blah, blah.
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I think we tasted like 35 or 40 different patties side-by-side, and what we found was the majority
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Frozen or not frozen, there's just like tons and tons and tons of moisture, which there
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So you end up with is difficult to get any kind of color or like good sear.
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Just that like weepy, gross, I don't even know what you want to call it.
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Yeah, there's some frozen patties that we get from Costco, and it's convenient because
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you just throw them on there, frozen, and they cook.
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It's funny, whenever you cook it on one side, on the side that's not being grilled, like
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I mean, the other part of that packaged ground beef is often like ground so fine or ground
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so many times that the fat is practically emulsed into the protein.
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And then once you cook it, because it is so like mashed and ground, it'll just weep out
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It's not to say that you can't make a decent burger with something pre-packaged.
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Grilling over charcoal or wood, also preferable in my opinion, depending on what kind of burger
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If I make a cheeseburger, we always cook that on the griddle.
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The cheeseburger, if you're cooking on the griddle, you have a higher fat percentage.
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I think that like overall, like especially over the grill, 20 to 30% fat, but anything more
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than that, and you end up with a lot of grill flare up or like for our cheeseburger that
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we would serve in the restaurant, it was almost 40% fat, but it's cooked on a griddle.
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So you don't have to worry about the grill flare.
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Okay, so if you're cooking a burger with lower fat, just grilling over the grill would be
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But if it's higher fat, maybe one of those cast iron griddles and put it on the grill
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So fat percentage, is that just whatever your preference is?
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I mean, the other part of like, if you're, so if you're using freshly ground beef and
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it is only ground once, you should end up with like pieces of fat in the grind, which
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don't render as quickly and also help with getting like a crusty caramelized exterior and
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I guess coarsely ground fat about 30% is, is my personal go-to.
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So avoid the, the frozen prepackaged stuff, get it freshly ground.
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You can go to your butcher and just say, give me some of that and grind it up and they'll
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In your burger, the Kroner burger, you use dry aged beef.
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Like what flavor does that impart to the burger that you otherwise wouldn't get with just
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The meat really benefits from the enzymatic process that happens when you are dry aging.
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So there's a slow breakdown of proteins that makes the beef more tender.
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The dry aging process also is a, you know, it's, it's controlled dehydration.
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So it's, I mean, it's really those two aspects of it that I'm after both the combination of
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the taste, the tenderization, and then with less moisture, the quality of the sear or
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char that you can get on the beef is significantly improved.
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And it, I mean, it kind of, you know, a hundred years ago, whatever, 150 years ago, if you,
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you had a dairy cow and eventually you, it stops giving you milk and you'd have to eat
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The dry aging process was as much of a method of like storage and preservation.
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I mean, I guess it was more a method of storage and preservation than it was anything else.
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So it, it really, this kind of goes, goes back to that, that very traditional way of preserving
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And with your burger, the Kroner burger, you serve it rare.
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In part, it is because again, if it's dry aged and it's coarsely ground.
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So even with that high fat percentage, if it is cooked much beyond medium, I personally
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don't think that the, you're, you're doing justice to the taste or the texture that was
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I feel like the combination of like the really nicely kind of caramelized exterior combined
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with the texture of the rare interiors, like you really get the best version.
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You're getting the best expression of how the beef tastes.
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I personally think it's texturally more appealing, but again, that's specific to that kind of
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If it is a less coarsely ground or ground twice or a thinner patty, then I don't know necessarily
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And then people with dry age, most, a lot of grocery stores, they have dry age beef.
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I know one of the local grocery stores here in Tulsa, they have dry age beef.
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You, you highlight in the book, you walk people through on how to dry age beef if they want
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But I've heard that's a pretty, it can be, if you don't have the right equipment, it can
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Someone's like, don't ever try to dry age your own beef.
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In the, in the course of writing the book, it was like at the restaurant, we had a humidity
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controlled walk-in with big fans dedicated to dry aging and, you know, roughly 2,500
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Taking that and making it accessible for the home cook was one of the biggest kind of hurdles
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that Paulo and I were just trying to figure out.
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Cause at the time, I mean, there were, it's like, I think the whole foods near my house
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had some dry aged beef, but it's not even in somewhere like Northern California at the
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time, which I mean, we were started writing in 2015.
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It was like, okay, well, how do we, how do we create a kind of a recipe for dry aging
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that anyone could do with a little bit of effort?
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And we looked at, you know, there's all, we're all sorts of articles about people using,
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it's like Koji on a rack in your refrigerator, or just putting a piece of beef on your refrigerator.
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This, there's like a, there's some kind of like bag or something that people used.
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And none of it, none of it is really doing what you want it.
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You can't really dry age a steak or like a pound of meat.
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It's like, you need to use a larger piece of meat to, to really get the effect that you're
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looking for and to end up with something usable.
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It's like, if you were to dry age, just a steak for 30 days, you're going to end up
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with a, you know, a piece of leather, not something that you want to eat.
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So in, in trying to, trying to solve this problem, we, I don't even remember where the
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We use a mini refrigerator, like you would have in a dorm room and a desk fan, and we
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sanitized it really, really well and dry age to chuck in a, in a mini fridge.
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So a whole chuck fits kind of perfectly cut into two pieces in a small refrigerator and
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the constantly moving air is the sanitation of the constantly moving air are very, very
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And because of the freezer element in the refrigerator, it also had appropriate humidity.
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Cause one of the, you know, one of the things about dry aging that sounds counterintuitive
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is that you dry age with pretty high humidity in order to, to control that process of dehydration.
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If it's, if the chamber is bone dry, then you're going to end up with jerky before you
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And then they had a couple of other, I had a dry age to whole, a whole ribeye for like
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three or four months in a mini fridge under his desk in his office, which I don't know.
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I don't think his coworkers were particularly excited about until they ate the steaks.
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So it actually is, I mean, you obviously have to be very careful because you don't want to
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end up with a small refrigerator full of rotten beef, but if you handle it correctly, it's
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pretty straightforward as long as the meat is dried off and the chamber is sanitary and
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you're not constantly opening and closing it, we didn't really end up with much exterior
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So that, so that was how we kind of solved that problem.
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But now, and I regret not thinking about it when we were doing it, but now it's like
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people sell dry age specific refrigerators for the home, but you can pull it off with about
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a hundred dollars if you'd, if you'd like to go the mini fridge route.
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We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
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So a go to me, like, so you want to go fresh ground.
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Let's recap your fresh ground on the beef fat percentage, 30 to 40, depending on what
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And then don't be afraid to try the dry aged beef.
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It'll give it a nice, different flavor, different texture.
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One thing you really focused on is proportions.
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So let's talk about the size and shape of a patty.
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Like where, what do you think is the best size and shape of a, of a burger patty?
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And like, where do you think a lot of people mess up on this?
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Uh, personally, I, I want a burger that you can hold in one hand and never put down if
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I also want a burger that is satisfying on its own, but it, if you wanted to eat too,
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I feel like very often people use inappropriate buns or inappropriately sized buns.
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It's like the bun should have texture, but I, I don't want something that is super bready,
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I personally, like, I don't want brioches too fatty for a burger in my opinion.
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And then just like the, the actual size of the bun.
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It's like, you don't want a four inch thick top bun with a one inch thick patty or a quarter
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inch thick patty and a huge bun or a huge patty and a huge bun.
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I think the, I guess the, the, the biggest mistakes are the, the, or the giant patties.
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Like I, I, I don't know about you, but I generally don't want to eat an eight ounce ground beef
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patty on something the size of a half a loaf of bread.
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Do you don't, do you like to go like really thin or is just like you a happy medium between
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Oh, they're about, so it's four inches around and a half, about a half inch high.
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And then when it cooks a little less than a half inch.
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And when it cooks, it'll cook down a little bit.
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I mean, if you're using something that doesn't have a ton of water in it, it shouldn't shrink.
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So again, coarsely, freshly ground shouldn't shrink.
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I mean, unless you over, you know, cook it to death, but you shouldn't lose that much.
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I mean, that's another effect of it being ground multiple times is that you're, you know, you're
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really have to run the risk of destroying the cellular structure.
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And so the moisture is much more likely to escape.
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So not too thick, not too thin, not too big around.
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It's like going off of the bun because then you can't hold it with the entire time, but
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you don't want it so small that you'll have an old lady asking, where's the beef from the
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And then, so let's talk about seasoning the burger.
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Do you like to season your burger before cooking?
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So if you're cooking it on a griddle, I usually put a very small amount of room temperature
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So you'd make sure you get nice caramelization on that first side on the grill, like medium
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At least for that initial char, I generally cook, like I cook one side longer than the
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other, which is a good way if you want it to be rare, it's a good way to get lots of
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caramelization and texture without overcooking it.
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So for that, you know, five ounce, four inch around patty, depending on how temperature
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of the meat, when you're, when you cook it, usually cook it for about a minute and a half
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on one side and 30 seconds on the other side, or a minute and 30 seconds or two minutes and
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And then with regards to everything else, it's really just about everything being in
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So it's like we have, we use five slices of pickles, we use three or four, depending
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on the size of the onion, pieces of onion that are cut about a quarter inch thick, charred
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I always take the ribs out, like the really white part.
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So we butter the buns, toast them on a griddle buttered side down.
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So you get, you get that caramelization, you get the texture from that.
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In addition to a little bit of steam that softens the rest of the bun.
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So you have that combination of crunchy toasted texture and soft pliable bun.
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So you mentioned there's, you have like an idea, like you don't want to, a bun that's
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too bready, you don't like brioche because it's too fatty.
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And in the book, you mentioned like, there's nothing wrong with just the bag of buns, like
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And you don't, it has a taste, but it doesn't like take away from the taste of the meat.
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I mean, as long as you, you know, can get over the mental hurdle of what they might be
00:18:53.700
I, I, like my, I would, my go-to in a grocery store is that bun versus like a brioche bun
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The Kroner burger doesn't have cheese, but people.
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No, and that was the function of the cheddar mayonnaise.
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So we emulsify aged white cheddar cheese into mayonnaise, which might sound complicated, but
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And in part that way, it was to try and get all of, you know, all of the, all the tastes
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So for, I mean, for the Kroner burger, I never really put cheese on it because the cheddar
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If anything, put blue cheese on it occasionally.
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But for the cheeseburger, my personal preferences is American cheese.
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Why not cheddar or a type of different type of cheese?
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And do you melt, like, do you like put it on the burger while it's still on the grill,
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So with the cheeseburger, we would kind of do the opposite.
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Well, I guess now I do do the opposite cooking process, right?
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Cook the first side for a short period of time, flip it over, put the cheese on top,
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and then cook the second side for a longer amount of time so that it would give the cheese
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But you would still end up with like a medium rare interior.
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Are there any condiments you think, like, I mean, by condiments, I'm thinking like mustard,
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mayonnaise, ketchup, that should never go on a burger.
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Because I know people have really heated opinions about this.
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I mean, we never, we did not ever put ketchup on the burger.
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And then often we would do events and things and not have any ketchup at all if we didn't
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have French fries, which people found confounding and angering.
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And I feel like I had much stronger opinions about this in the past.
00:21:09.540
I mean, I really think it's about, I mean, I personally don't, I'm going to say that I
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But if I, if it's, if I'm at a barbecue and somebody's, you know, grilling hockey pucks
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and throwing them on, on toasted room temperature buns from the grocery store, I will definitely
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It's like putting a one sauce on a poorly cooked steak.
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It's like, I mean, I wouldn't put a one on a, uh, on like 120 day dry aged ribeye, but
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I, I don't know, a steak at a shitty steakhouse.
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We talked about it, you know, the cheeseburger.
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Are there any other burger variations that you like?
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Uh, for a while I was making a version of the cheeseburger that was just raw white
00:22:01.020
onions and kind of sweet, pretty spicy mustard.
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So it was raw onions that almost like yellow mustard, but spicier than that and pickles
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With either like just blue cheese or like a big piece of raw onion, like a double plate
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So a bacon burger is like a type of bacon you'd like to use for that.
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I buy all of our, all of our meat comes, a friend of mine started a meat company called
00:22:36.760
cream co and they're based in Oakland and we, I buy everything from them at this point.
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So he works with producers and predominantly it's California, Oregon, Washington state.
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And they make a really, they have a really nice bacon that we buy.
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So it's, I mean, it's not too thick, not too smoky, dry cured.
00:22:59.180
I usually put a couple, a couple slices, if anything.
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I mean, the other, my other favorite is pimento cheese.
00:23:10.620
And we actually, so over the course of this past year, we accidentally started a retail
00:23:16.080
seafood company here in LA called Mayday, which is how we've been selling Kroner Burger
00:23:22.720
burger kits and the other, like the butchery items and stuff.
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So we sell dry aged beef and all that kind of stuff.
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But we started making pimento cheese with, with lobster in it.
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And so lately we have been making cheeseburgers that are just a toasted bun, lobster pimento
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30%, you want to go fresh ground, try the dry aged, size of the patty, we're looking
00:23:56.420
at four inches round, just salt before, again, we're keeping it simple, just salt.
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And then bun, just go with the Wonder Bread bun.
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Cheese, American cheese has that creamy texture.
00:24:15.020
So here's, I've been, so like lately I've started, I don't, I used to, when you're a
00:24:19.500
kid, like that's like, you love French fries, but as I've gotten older, I've kind of stopped
00:24:23.880
liking French fries because they just kind of, I feel like it just takes up space and
00:24:28.720
sometimes they're not, most French fries aren't very good.
00:24:32.160
So for you, like what is an ideal French fry like?
00:24:37.080
I mean, in my experience using Kennebec potatoes, we get the best results with Kennebec
00:24:44.540
They don't caramelize too quickly in the fryer.
00:24:48.260
So we, and we would, so we would oil blanch, cut the potatoes, rinse them, oil blanch them
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at like 300 degrees, freeze them, and then refry them at 375 degrees.
00:25:00.280
And what you, you end up with is between the process of your, I mean, you're almost, I
00:25:07.300
don't want to say confine because they don't cook that long, but you're kind of gently
00:25:14.580
The interior is cooked and then between that process, that part of the process and the
00:25:20.040
freezing, you end up with like a, when you refry it, you have a nice like shell and then
00:25:26.040
the interior is super, you know, cloudy and pillowy.
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You use russet potatoes and like a steak cut fry is good.
00:25:40.500
Honestly, the best burger side is another burger.
00:25:48.100
If I go to like a fast food place, I'd rather get another sandwich or burger than eat the
00:26:01.880
I know people love the waffle fries at Chick-fil-A, but I'd rather have another spicy chicken
00:26:09.020
I feel like I still, I still generally order fries because I want to see if they're any
00:26:21.000
Like I think the best fast food fry, I like Freddy's fast food.
00:26:30.780
It's like they specialize in like burgers are really thin, but the fries are shoestrings,
00:26:39.500
Do you have a, I always ask people this question.
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I think it's a point of like a good conversation starter.
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And it can, it doesn't have to be a national chain.
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It could also be like a local place, a regional thing as well.
00:26:53.520
So if you're like out, you're driving with friends, you're like, Hey, we need something
00:26:59.000
I found, well, here in LA, there's, so for like old school kind of fast foodies style
00:27:05.720
burger, there's in Pasadena, there's a place called pie and burger.
00:27:11.140
There's also a, it's like a mini chain called high hoe here in LA.
00:27:16.840
And that for like a fast food burger, that's probably my, my favorite in LA.
00:27:24.660
So we used to white castle was, it's pretty great.
00:27:29.040
And then I, when I was doing research for the book, I went to white manna in New Jersey,
00:27:35.060
which is similar to a white castle, but actually delicious.
00:27:40.860
I think for like national chain, I think Shake Shack definitely has the most consistent
00:27:53.080
If Freddy's is similar to Shake Shack, I would say.
00:27:58.080
My, so I like Freddy's and then my other go-to like regional here in Oklahoma, at least
00:28:03.420
is, is it's a dairy company called Brahms milk, but you also go to these places and they sell
00:28:14.920
It's, it's, I think it's underrated, but I think it's a, it's a solid burger and you
00:28:27.700
I think actually there was an article written about Brahms.
00:28:29.700
Like I think in, like, I think it might've been one of the LA newspapers or New York
00:28:35.300
I wonder, I feel like that may have been where I, where I heard about it.
00:28:44.320
Is there some place people can go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:28:48.620
And then, I mean, we post, we still do events here in LA with, we will eventually have a new
00:28:59.160
And then if, I mean, the easiest way to directly access the Croner burgers and our cheeseburgers
00:29:16.260
He is the author of the book, A Burger to Believe In.
00:29:18.600
It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:29:20.880
Make sure to check out our show notes at aom.is slash burger.
00:29:27.600
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
00:29:36.060
Check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives, as well
00:29:39.600
as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you can think
00:29:42.420
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