When people think about winter, they often focus on the negatives: the cold, the dark, and seasonal depression the season can bring. But my guest today questions whether winter really has to be so miserable, and says that by changing our mindset, we can actually learn to enjoy and even thrive during the season. Carrie Leibovitz is a psychologist and the author of How to Winter: Harness Your Mindset to Thrive on Cold, Dark or Difficult Days. She spent a year at the northernmost university in the world in Tromsø, Norway, studying why people living in the Arctic where the sun doesn t rise for two months, don t suffer from seasonal depression at the rates you might expect.
00:05:34.800And then you go, like, to Norway, and they don't have that approach.
00:05:40.820And, yeah, going back to that research question you had is, why is it in Norway where it seems people are flourishing there?
00:05:48.000Like, rates of happiness are pretty high there.
00:05:50.720And they have these long, hard winters.
00:05:53.260And here in the United States, when we think about winter, like, we're just like, oh, geez.
00:05:57.760And something you talk about in your book is that it seems like here in the United States, whenever winter starts approaching, you start seeing this increase in articles about seasonal affective disorder.
00:06:08.680Like, okay, yeah, winter's coming, and you're probably going to get sad.
00:06:12.200What is the rate of sad or seasonal affective disorder for people living in areas where they really get hit hard in the winter, like in Norway?
00:06:22.000So the question about rates of sad or seasonal affective disorder is a little bit more complicated than it looks on the surface.
00:06:30.000Because when sad was originally described in the 1980s by an American psychologist named Norman Rosenthal, the scale that they used to measure seasonal affective disorder was called the SPAC, the Seasonal Pattern Assessment Questionnaire.
00:06:46.800And basically what that measures is how seasonal you are, how much your behavior changes between seasons.
00:06:55.580So when do you sleep the most, when do you eat the most, when do you socialize the most, when do you feel the best?
00:07:02.620And if you have too much fluctuation between seasons and you don't feel good in the winter, it suggests that you probably have seasonal affective disorder.
00:07:13.260Now, modern psychologists take a different approach.
00:07:16.460So the current sort of gold standard for diagnosing seasonal affective disorder is that it is a subtype of clinical depression.
00:07:25.940So first you have to meet the threshold for a clinical depressive episode, which includes, you know, a number of symptoms almost every day for two weeks.
00:07:35.320Things like feelings like feelings like feelings of worthlessness, excessive change in sleep or diet, feelings of suicidality, not being able to meet your responsibilities.
00:07:47.940And critically, it has to cause you significant distress or impair your daily functioning in some way.
00:07:55.240And if you use this criteria of diagnosis, you see much lower rates of seasonal affective disorder.
00:08:04.580And so really the question of sort of what are the rates depends a lot on what measure you're using.
00:08:11.280And this is really important when we are thinking about places in the world that have these long, dark, extreme winters like northern Norway.
00:08:20.860Because in a place like Tromso, in the summer, they go from 24 hours of what they call the midnight sun, the sun never sets, to the winter of 24 hours where the sun never rises.
00:08:34.420And so there, this idea that, you know, you wouldn't adapt your behavior or your sleep patterns or your socializing with the seasons, it's obvious that that doesn't really make any sense, right?
00:08:47.220It's obvious that it would be natural and perhaps even adaptive to really change your behavior seasonally.
00:08:55.280So what I can definitely say is that there are a lot of studies that use these really rigorous criteria of understanding seasonal affective disorder and find that a lot of places with very long, dark winters.
00:09:09.520So in Iceland, in northern Norway, in the Netherlands, they find much lower rates of seasonal affective disorder than you would expect given how far north they are.
00:09:22.720It doesn't mean that nobody has winter depression or that nobody struggles with the winter, but the rates in Tromso across several studies are about equivalent to the rates of seasonal affective disorder in Maryland in the U.S., which is way farther south,
00:09:36.560has a much brighter winter, has a much brighter winter, and a much more mild winter.
00:09:39.980So it's clear that there's something about these cultures and these communities where they're not falling prey to this concept of wintertime depression as much as we might think.
00:09:51.020Okay, so why are the rates in, say, Maryland the same as in Norway?
00:09:56.940Is it that people in Norway do change their behavior with the seasons?
00:10:00.960Like, you know, one thing you talk about is that people want to sleep more in the winter.
00:10:04.900It's like, I think it's like a half hour more.
00:10:06.980But people in Nordic countries don't see that as a problem.
00:10:10.800They don't think that they have seasonal affective disorder unless they're actually clinically depressed.
00:10:16.180Whereas Americans are using the looser scale where it's like, well, I'm not actually depressed, but I'm more tired and want to socialize less in the winter.
00:10:24.700So I guess I have seasonal affective disorder.
00:11:01.800Maybe you are less social or you socialize in different ways.
00:11:06.700Maybe the activities that you do for fun are a little bit calmer or lower energy or more peaceful.
00:11:13.760All of these are ways of adapting to the winter.
00:11:16.860And I think when you live in a culture where the winters are so dark and so extreme and so long, where it's so much of the year that you're in winter, you have to adapt.
00:11:27.820Whereas I think if you live in somewhere like Maryland or a middle latitude, even though there can be a pretty significant shift in the day length between summer and winter, we sort of have this cultural narrative that you should have the same schedule year round.
00:11:45.340That you should be equally productive year round, that you should be equally energetic year round.
00:11:50.600And so if we feel the effects of winter on us, which is real, right?
00:11:54.940Like when the days are shorter in the winter, when it gets darker earlier or the sun rises later, it's normal to feel more tired.
00:12:02.720I think we interpret that as a problem, as a sign of depression, as a sense that there's something wrong with us.
00:12:11.520And that leads us to, I think, respond maladaptively where we're really focused and perpetuating this narrative that we are depressed and winter is depressing, which actually crowds out a lot of space to say, what do I need right now?
00:12:29.080What would help me respond to these feelings of tiredness or lack of motivation or lethargy in a way that is useful for me and my body?
00:12:39.060All right. So it sounds like in America, our expectations of what we should be doing in the winter are kind of out of whack.
00:12:45.800We expect we should still be as productive as we are in the summertime, just as happy.
00:12:51.940Yeah. And I think that like when the winter isn't as extreme, you can sort of delude yourself into thinking that you don't have to change your behavior.
00:13:00.220And then actually you're fighting against your natural environment.
00:13:03.480Yeah. This idea of expectations creating a problem that might not be a problem reminds me of like loneliness.
00:13:08.520Like people talk a lot about the loneliness epidemic and something I've brought up with guests who are experts in this is, you know, maybe, maybe we're just lonely because our expectations of what a social life looks like are higher than they really should be.
00:13:23.200Because like loneliness is like a subjective feeling.
00:13:25.160You can be surrounded by people who love you and whatever.
00:13:28.560And you can still feel lonely because there's something going on subjectively.
00:13:31.620And it might be maybe your expectations of what you want from those other people are not being met.
00:13:37.160And so you just feel like, oh, man, no one understands me.
00:13:39.260Right. Or you can spend a lot of time by yourself and not feel alone.
00:13:43.700Yeah. And I think, I mean, a lot of this is comparison and reference point with the age of social media where it looks like everyone is always having the best time surrounded by friends and loved ones.
00:13:56.320Maybe that it does shift our narratives about how much we should be socializing or how socializing should feel because it doesn't feel as good as it looks on social media.
00:14:08.000You know, I think about the Gini coefficient, which is a measure of inequality in countries and poorer countries that have less inequality.
00:14:18.260People tend to be more satisfied with their lives, whereas wealthier countries that have greater inequality, even people who are much wealthier than the people in these poor countries tend to be less satisfied because you're sort of looking around and comparing to what things should be.
00:14:34.540So I think this idea that, you know, our narratives really matter is really at the heart of my research and the heart of this book is that, you know, we look around and there's some disconnect between how we think we should be feeling and how we should be feeling.
00:14:51.500And that creates or perpetuates these problems.
00:14:56.000And I think, you know, like what you're sort of talking about with loneliness is it also shows you how when you get in this narrative of I am lonely or winter is depressing, all these systems in your mind start coming online to confirm that assumption about the world.
00:15:16.740So you're selectively attending outside of your awareness to things that match that narrative, your confirmation bias is kicking in.
00:15:25.640So you're more likely to notice those things and really attend to those things and maybe talk about those things.
00:15:31.880And that furthers this narrative when the reality might be more complex.
00:15:37.840And this is how sort of shifting your mindset can put you on a different path to experiencing things really differently because you start noticing different things and looking for different things and seeing different things and then feeling a different way because of that.
00:15:56.500Yeah, it's basically us people living in like the middle latitudes when we experience winter, like we nocebo ourselves about winter.
00:16:04.080It's like nocebo is the opposite of placebo.
00:16:06.200So the placebo effect is if you believe like a medicine is going to work, it might work for you.
00:16:10.900The nocebo is like if you think something's awful for you, it's going to be awful for you, even though there's nothing going on that's actually making it awful for you.
00:16:18.480Yes, and I think it both creates this sort of negative experience and reinforces it, right?
00:16:27.340So I think there's two things that happen.
00:16:32.320Every season has pros and cons, right?
00:16:34.160Summer has sweating and sunburn and mosquitoes and lots of unpleasantness, but it has really good branding.
00:16:42.620And so I think when we think of summer, that's not the first thing that comes to mind for many of us, whereas winter, which has lots of opportunities for coziness and for doing things outdoors in the cold that actually feel really good, that's not what is top of mind for people.
00:17:03.840There's all these narratives about depression.
00:17:05.560So I think then what happens is we're more likely to selectively notice those aspects of winter, right?
00:17:12.780When you have to clean the snow off your car or when you are commuting in the dark or you feel more tired at the end of the day, those things are really grabbing a lot of your attention because they fit your narrative about winter.
00:17:25.820And then, of course, focusing on them doesn't feel good because those are the negative, unpleasant aspects of winter.
00:17:31.740At the same time with the nocebo effect, this happens a lot with medications, right?
00:17:36.960You take a medication and it has a long list of side effects that include things that might be very specific to the medication, but also things that are sometimes just being a person, you know?
00:17:53.180Sometimes you feel a little bit lightheaded when you stand up too fast.
00:17:56.900And when you're taking this medication and you've been warned about these possible side effects and you're hypervigilant about them, you might be more likely to attribute something that would have happened to you anyway to the medication.
00:18:10.500And I see this a lot with winter where when people have a bad week in the winter, they attribute it to the winter.
00:18:18.060They're like, I'm feeling down and it's because winter is depressing.
00:18:22.020Whereas if they have a bad week in the summer, they're not like, oh, it's because summer is making me depressed.
00:18:27.640And so I also think in addition to, you know, making us notice some of these unpleasant aspects of winter, we also are more likely to attribute sort of any vague, amorphous discomfort we're feeling that's a normal part of being a person to winter weather or winter darkness.
00:18:45.640You know, it's sort of a scapegoat for anything that happens from November to March.
00:18:50.260Yeah. So I think the big takeaway there is whenever winter arrives, you naturally want to slow down.
00:19:21.200One of the responses, and you talk about this in the book, one of the responses particularly we Americans have when it comes to seasonal affective disorder, once we start feeling like, oh, I'm feeling a little lethargic, I'm feeling a little down.
00:19:33.040This is not good because I have to be on all the time.
00:19:36.800One of our responses is that we can do light therapy.
00:19:39.280I can buy a light box and I can sit in front of it for 30 minutes.
00:19:43.680And the research does show like that works.
00:19:46.280But then you highlight research that, you know, a better way, a more effective way to deal with, you know, what you think might be seasonal affective disorder is just change your mindset about it.
00:19:56.400Yeah, so light therapy is the most common treatment for seasonal affective disorder and it's actually, it's inextricably linked to our understanding of the disorder because the theory about the cause of seasonal affective disorder was reverse engineered from finding that light therapy treated it.
00:20:14.680So light therapy treated seasonal affective disorder and so researchers were like, oh, then this disorder must be caused by the lack of light in winter, which led to this hypothesis that places with darker winters should have more seasonal affective disorder, except for the research doesn't support that.
00:20:31.100So that calls sort of this whole thing into question.
00:20:33.720And actually more recent research shows that even non-seasonal depression responds to light therapy and that light seems to be effective at treating not winter depression.
00:20:44.180So it's not necessarily true that the darkness is what is causing this.
00:20:48.820And I think a lot of people, you know, this is sort of emblematic, right?
00:20:52.480We want this quick fix that is going to allow us to just keep on keeping on rather than actually change our behavior or lifestyle in any meaningful way.
00:21:02.480So there's a ton of marketing and advertising and good press around light lamps for the winter.
00:21:09.840And they can be useful, especially if you're feeling tired in the morning.
00:21:13.820We know that, you know, natural light and bright light wakes us up and helps our circadian rhythms.
00:21:19.840So sitting in front of a light box can help with that sort of morning feeling of tiredness.
00:21:27.540The problem is that it's not as nice as people often think it's going to be.
00:21:38.100And for it to be effective, you have to do it consistently every day, ideally first thing in the morning.
00:21:43.480And when you're already having a hard time waking up in the dark, waking up 30 minutes earlier, you know, before you have to go to work, before you're getting your kids ready for school to sit in front of this bright artificial light is actually not so nice.
00:21:56.660And a researcher named Kelly Rohan at the University of Vermont has pioneered using cognitive behavioral therapy instead to treat seasonal affective disorder.
00:22:07.120And her sort of thinking and what led her to this theory is, you know, humans are not just passive biological organisms.
00:22:13.980It's not as simple as lack of light equals depression.
00:22:21.720We are making meaning of our environment and our feelings all the time.
00:22:27.100And so she felt like cognitive behavioral therapy, spending 12 sessions really interrogating and then changing your mindsets about winter in this case, that that would be more effective in really helping people handle winter.
00:22:43.620And what her research finds, which I just love, is that while people are in treatment receiving CBT or doing the light therapy, the treatments are equally effective.
00:22:53.960But once the clinical trial is over, lots of people discontinue the light therapy and the CBT continues to be effective even after the end of what we might call active treatment.
00:23:06.060So two years out, people who received this mindset shift, this cognitive behavioral therapy for their winter depression were significantly less likely to have re-experienced winter depression than the people who were just using the light lamp.
00:23:23.020And I think for me, that really shows that examining the way that we relate to winter, questioning our negative schemas and narratives and frameworks around winter and replacing them with more adaptive ways of coping and responding to winter is a really effective treatment for seasonal affective disorder.
00:23:43.660Sure. You mentioned the light therapy not being so nice. I can attest to that. So I remember several years ago, I decided to buy a lamp, one of those lamps for seasonal affective disorders. I was feeling kind of down. And yeah, you're right. It's just like, okay, you have to do this thing every day. And I remember like, it was just so boring. I'd be sitting there like 30 minutes every day. And it got to the point where I just stopped doing it. And I think the thing ended up in the trash.
00:24:07.920I'm sorry. I should have asked the B. Where do you live?
00:24:11.860So it's, it's my, we get winters, but it's not like it's terrible. It's not like you're in Norway or even Vermont.
00:24:16.160But you're still dealing with the darkness, right? That's the thing is like, even if it's not super cold, you're still going to have a lot less light in winter and you're going to feel that. And I mean, I have one of these sort of, it's actually like a bright ring light, but I'll put it on at my computer in the morning, in the winter. Like if I'm sitting in front of my computer anyway, I also personally try to go for a walk.
00:24:39.260After breakfast, or at the very least, like stand by a window to try to get some of that, you know, even if it's a gray cloudy day to get some of that natural light earlier in the morning, there's evidence that that helps.
00:24:52.360But I think it's really become this idea of sort of a magic cure-all for winter. And really, to me, it's like a little bit of a band-aid solution, you know?
00:25:03.820Yeah. So what you do in the rest of your book, How to Winter, is you take this idea that, you know, a better way to experience winter, so it's not as terrible or miserable as you change your mindset about it. It's basically cognitive behavioral therapy. And what you do in your book is you provide practices that people can do to help them change their mindset.
00:25:22.640And one thing you start off talking about is this idea of shifting your attention. You were talking about that earlier. A lot of times when we think about winter, we just focus on the bad stuff. It's cold. It's dark. I got to go out and like scrape the ice off my windshield. It's terrible.
00:25:35.500But you offer some suggestions on how to direct our attention to more positive things than winter. So what are some things we can do?
00:25:43.600Yeah. So attention really creates our experience. What we pay attention to at any given time is what we're experiencing, and we can't attend to everything at once. And so consciously directing your attention is a way to change your experience.
00:26:02.320So at the simplest level, you can ask yourself, you know, what things do you like about winter, and how can you attend to that more? So it might be things like the fact that it's actually really nice to sit inside and work at a computer if it's raining outside.
00:26:20.720Or when you go outside in the winter to get to work in the morning, the air smells very crisp and clean and fresh, or that the darkness of winter can actually feel sort of calming, or a sunny winter day can be very golden.
00:26:37.640Or that, you know, a hot bath or a hot bath or a hot shower at the end of the day feels really good after you've come in from the cold or, you know, drinking your morning tea or coffee feels especially good on a cold day.
00:26:51.780You know, these are very, in some ways, simple things and simple pleasures, but really attending to them can change our experience in profound ways.
00:27:01.520And I think, you know, as a mindset researcher, I'm really interested in the mechanisms by which mindsets work, right?
00:27:08.540So often I think the research on mindset gets discussed as, you know, you change your mindset, you adopt a growth mindset, and all of a sudden you'll perform better.
00:27:17.540You adopt the mindset that winter is wonderful, and all of a sudden you have a better winter.
00:27:22.640But it's not this sort of magical switch that you flip.
00:27:26.660There's a whole cascade of things that happens when you work on changing your mindset.
00:27:32.520And one of them is that you notice different things in your environment, and that makes you more likely to engage with different things, right?
00:27:40.780So if you are noticing that the darkness can feel cozy rather than oppressive, then maybe that motivates you to light some candles and have a cozy evening and really revel in the early darkness and use that as a time to relax.
00:27:59.400And then you're going to have a totally different experience than if you were just attending to the fact that the darkness makes you feel more tired.
00:28:07.400So start very simply, pay attention to the things that you like about winter, even if, you know, you feel that they're in the minority of things that you experience during the season.
00:28:18.540Really try to focus on them and lean into them.
00:28:33.520I mean, these things are like, they're so simple, but really being like, yeah, it's hoodie season totally changes the experience of being cold in your house, you know?
00:28:44.120And the other thing too, you recommend just go out on a walk and then just pay attention to your environment more closely.
00:28:49.220What are the things you enjoy about the wintertime?
00:28:56.800It was brisk, but it felt like it was 21.
00:28:58.500You know, it started off kind of miserable, but then I started embracing, hey, I kind of like the feeling of just like that coldness on your nose.
00:29:07.620And it was kind of uncomfortable, but I was thinking when I get my house, it's going to feel really good to warm up.
00:29:35.020At first I was really uncomfortable, but then you get moving and you can sort of attend to the feeling of freshness or crispness on your face.
00:29:44.700And then when you come back inside, you can really experience that pleasure of being somewhere warm again.
00:29:52.800And I think, you know, it's such a different mindset when you come in from the cold and say like, oh, it's terrible out versus, ooh, like it feels so nice in here.
00:30:03.420You know, that's a really different orientation that's going to impact your whole day.
00:30:08.760And I think this idea of bundling up, going outside in the cold, we know that movement, fresh air, and nature are all natural antidepressants.
00:30:19.300So if you're feeling down in the winter, a short winter's walk is a pretty reliable mood booster.
00:30:26.120And then when you notice these positive aspects, it makes you more likely to do it again.
00:30:31.380It pushes you towards that activity rather than sort of pushing you away from it.
00:30:36.340And so doing that once with this sort of intentional noticing might make it more likely that this turns into a habit, which is going to have all sorts of emotional and physical benefits for you.
00:32:33.960But you talk about in other cultures, they actually break up winter into subseasons.
00:32:38.040So how can breaking winter up into subseasons help make it more enjoyable?
00:32:41.900Yeah, so this is one of the things that I learned while I was researching the book that has changed my perspective the most.
00:32:49.260So the Sami, who are the indigenous people of northern Europe, of the Arctic, what is now, you know, Norway, Finland, and Sweden, traditionally had eight seasons.
00:33:00.280So the four seasons we might be used to, spring, summer, fall, and winter, but also four bridge seasons.
00:33:06.980So spring, summer, summer, fall, fall, winter, and winter, spring.
00:33:13.660So there's actually three sort of winter seasons.
00:33:17.100There's autumn, winter, winter, and spring, winter.
00:33:21.460And I think that this is really helpful because, first of all, we know that having different names for things helps us notice and appreciate them more, right?
00:33:30.300When we can label things and they have a name, they feel real in a different way.
00:33:35.760And I think it helps us appreciate the evolution of winter.
00:33:41.020That autumn winter is when winter is coming on.
00:33:44.540The days are getting shorter, but maybe winter is still sort of novel and exciting.
00:33:50.180It's still, you know, fun that it's hoodie season again.
00:33:54.240You know, we're greeting winter and we're sort of preparing to go into the darkness.
00:33:58.340And then winter, for me, is really this sort of deep winter time.
00:34:02.840It's the darkest time of the year, the time you're really going to feel the effects most on your energy.
00:34:10.820So, like, it's both kind of a restful time and kind of a stressful time.
00:34:15.400And those things are, you know, competing for real estate in your life.
00:34:20.060And, you know, that's the real wintry winter.
00:34:22.540And then there's spring winter, which to me, I mean, it really is going to vary where you live and based on your climate.
00:34:30.240But to me, that's sort of late February through whenever spring actually arrives, which, you know, sometimes is March, sometimes is April.
00:34:38.000Sometimes, you know, isn't until early May, depending on where you live.
00:34:41.940And that is when, you know, the days are getting light again, maybe you're feeling sick and tired of winter, like you're over it and you're ready for spring.
00:34:51.600And there are signs of spring around, like, you know, little things are growing and birds are coming back, but it's not full T-shirt weather yet.
00:35:01.200And I think this idea of splitting the winter into three both helps us sort of notice the different parts of winter and the way that it's sort of not static.
00:35:12.360I think it can also give us some stamina for winter.
00:35:15.600So a lot of people I talk to really struggle with this tail end of winter with, like, January, February, March.
00:35:23.100And that is what some of the Sami people that I spoke to in Inari, Sápmi, what is now Finland, talked about that in their community, they still really use this designation of spring-winter and start talking about spring-winter and how the days are getting lighter, the sun is coming back.
00:35:42.440If you're somewhere snowy, it's the best time of year for skiing because the sun will melt the top layer of snow and then it will refreeze at night and it will form like a crust.
00:35:53.260So you can often walk or ski on this snow crust and the conditions for that are really good.
00:35:59.180But I think when a lot of people are feeling ready for spring, calling it spring-winter and acknowledging that it's not fully spring yet, but it's also not deep winter in the same way can really help you appreciate the parts of that season and also give you a little bit more stamina for sort of making it through that tail end of winter that a lot of people often struggle with.
00:36:26.680And you also recommend one thing you can do with the breaking of the winter in different sections, these three sections, is you can add in some rituals kind of to help you usher in the different parts of winter.
00:36:39.120So I think a lot of us do this naturally.
00:36:40.780We just don't really think about it as rituals.
00:36:43.000So I know, you know, for me, whenever I feel like fall winter is coming on, it's hoodie season.
00:36:49.040It's time to bring out, I got some jogger pants that I really like that are really cozy.
00:36:53.380And then as, you know, the holidays get closer, you get deeper into winter, like Christmas, Hanukkah, like you're putting up the decorations, there's food that you're eating for that deep, dark type of winter.
00:37:05.140And then in spring winter, that sort of tail end of winter, you know, we all have probably things that we do naturally.
00:37:11.620Oh, I'm going to spend a little bit more time outside later in the day because, you know, the light is extending a bit.
00:37:18.080So I love that recommendation you have is add in some rituals to the temporality or the seasonality of these different subwinters.
00:37:25.080And I think it's funny, you mentioned your mom did exactly what my mom did with M&Ms.
00:38:01.740And I think, you know, having these little things is a way of helping us mark time and also gives us things to look forward to, right?
00:38:11.100It gives us things where we say, oh, this time of year is when I bake cookies or throw my big Valentine's Day party or, you know, go on walks after work so I can see like all the little shoots growing.
00:38:26.860You know, it helps us anticipate these different parts of the season more positively.
00:38:33.080And the other thing I really like about the three subseasons is how it can be adapted to the climate where you live.
00:38:38.760So in the U.S., winter starts on the same day and spring starts on the same day, whether you live in Oklahoma or Minnesota, you know, and in reality, the climates of different places are really different.
00:38:51.960And so having your own personal markers of the season and your own personal rituals that maybe they're tied to a date on the calendar, but maybe they're tied to a weather event, right?
00:39:02.540Maybe you're a gardener and you wait until, you know, after what you think is going to be the last frost to do your gardening in the spring or you wait until the sun sets at a certain time where you are to have some sort of evening ritual.
00:39:19.020I think this way we can really adapt them to wherever we live, which helps us appreciate winter where we are and sort of connect us to, you know, the specific climate of our home or our community on a planet that is very, you know, rich and diverse in how the seasons manifest.
00:39:42.020Another thing you talk about we can do to make winter more enjoyable, change your mindset about it is incorporating a practice that Norwegians use called hygge.
00:40:06.340So hygge is, it's the Danish word for coziness.
00:40:09.020Coziness, the Norwegian word is kushlig.
00:40:12.040They use a different word, but it's, it's, you know, it's roughly translated as coziness, but it's more of a sort of untranslatable concept.
00:40:22.060In Scandinavian countries, in a lot of these cold, dark countries, there are special words associated with this feeling of being cozy.
00:40:31.700And, you know, I think of it as, right, like you talked about when the snow is falling outside and, you know, you don't have to go anywhere or, you know, a Friday night at the end of the work week when you come home and you like have your favorite dinner and you watch a movie.
00:40:48.540It's this feeling of peaceful contentedness to me that's really, you know, facilitated by our environment.
00:40:58.620So often it's practiced, you know, mostly in the winter when it's dark outside and you light candles at home and it's, you know, it's cold out there, but it's warm at home and you're feeling cozy and connected and content.
00:41:14.720And I think that, you know, there's this cultural value of this peacefulness that winter really facilitates that I think helps people in these Nordic countries appreciate and enjoy winter.
00:41:31.300That it's this special atmosphere and feeling that is especially well suited to the long nights and sort of the cold air of the winter season that people really relish and really look forward to.
00:41:48.060So this idea of coziness, but in a really sort of rich and meaningful way.
00:42:11.480I love how, I think it's in Iceland, instead of giving toys and presents for Christmas, they give each other books and then they just read the books that they gave each other in front of each other.
00:42:36.340But the truth is, when you are intentional about lighting and you use candles, what you're doing is you're changing the meaning of the darkness.
00:42:46.700And the darkness goes from something that is a negative, that makes you feel tired, that is limiting to an opportunity for hygge, for this cozy feeling, for this contentment.
00:43:00.340And when you light these candles at the end of the day or before dinner, I even light them when I eat breakfast on a, you know, gray rainy day now, with the intention of reveling in the low light at this time of year and inviting the darkness in, that's a really powerful reframe and a really powerful mindset shift.
00:43:23.480And likewise, having these sort of slowed down activities, so knitting, reading books, you know, even saying like, you know, you're going to watch a movie or watch Netflix with this cozy intention changes the meaning of it.
00:43:38.760I'm personally, I'm an amateur ceramicist.
00:43:41.640And when it's really warm and sunny out, it's hard for me to spend a whole Saturday afternoon in the pottery studio.
00:43:46.640But when it's dark and gray and rainy, that's the perfect place to be.
00:43:52.020And so you have these activities that you look forward to that you say, winter is my time to do this thing that I love.
00:44:01.040And it really reclaims the darkness as a chance to connect with these things in a way that gives you something to look forward to and really, really transforms your experience.
00:45:10.240For me, a hot water bottle is something I've recently become very into of like, you know, it's sort of like I think of like an old British grandma with her hot water bottle.
00:45:20.420But it's so cozy to have like this little warm thing on my lap or in my bed when I'm either working at my desk or watching TV or doing whatever.
00:45:31.140For me, drinking tea, like winter is tea season and I really stock up and I'm, you know, I'm drinking tea right now.
00:45:49.460Maybe for you, hygge is the blue and white M&Ms in the candy bowl.
00:45:53.600You know, what are the things that I can have in my environment or that I can do with myself or my partner or my friends or my family that make me feel this sort of like calm, content, peaceful feeling?
00:46:06.860Maybe it's a certain playlist that you play.
00:46:12.740Maybe it's certain dishes from your childhood that you like to cook and eat.
00:46:16.960And so I think, you know, there's this sort of Scandinavian brand of hygge and I think there's some great principles, right?
00:46:24.400Things that make you feel warm, good, low lighting, yummy foods and drinks.
00:46:29.540But I think this idea that we should all be doing the Scandinavian hygge like there's a right way to do it is not totally aligned with the principles of hygge, which is really what makes you feel calm and cozy at home.
00:46:44.960So another reason a lot of people don't like winter in the United States is that they feel like they can't go outside.
00:46:52.820How do the Nordics think about getting outside during the wintertime?
00:46:55.480Yeah, so I think if you live in a place with such a long, dark, cold winter, you know that you can't let it stop you.
00:47:02.620You know that you have to find ways to brave the elements because otherwise you really are not going to feel very good if you're trying to stay inside for six months of the year.
00:47:13.900So in Norway and throughout Scandinavia, they have this saying, there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing.
00:47:20.980And I really learned how to dress for the winter living in Norway.
00:47:25.260And now I bring that with me, you know, even when I'm home at my parents' house in New Jersey.
00:47:30.560So, you know, I'll be wearing, you know, sneaky, thin woolen leggings under my jeans or my pants or a woolen undershirt if I'm going to be outside for a while.
00:47:42.500Lots of layers, so for me, like, you know, a sweater under a cardigan under my waterproof coat with a scarf and a hat and my rain boots and really sort of fortifying yourself against the elements so that you can go outside and be comfortable outside.
00:48:01.120So, you know, in Finland, we would go on a, you know, when I was researching the book and I visited Finland, we went on a day that I think it was 14 degrees Fahrenheit and we went for a picnic and we, there were little metal fire pits and we roasted hot dogs and we drank hot chocolate and we hung out outside for an hour or two around the fire, totally bundled up.
00:48:25.760And so I think experimenting with dressings so that you are sort of weatherproof, so that you are warm and you are dry and then going outside in the winter is a really freeing feeling.
00:48:41.280I think a lot of people underestimate how good it can feel to be outside in the cold or the wet when you're properly dressed.
00:48:49.660We also know from research that people substantially underestimate how much of a mood boost time in nature will provide them.
00:48:57.120And so I think we can really take a cue from the Nordics and from Scandinavia in not letting the weather stop us.
00:49:05.720And another thing I've experienced and was taught by my friends in Norway is that it often looks worse outside than it actually is.
00:49:13.440When you're inside and it's dark out or it's raining, it looks really cold and really foreboding and really wet.
00:49:21.760And there's so many times, I actually, I currently live in Amsterdam, which is a very cold, rainy city and also one where people bike everywhere.
00:49:29.460And living here, there's so many times I look out the window and I'm like, oh my God, it's raining so much.
00:49:36.180And then I bundle up and I go outside and like, it's just misting or it's only raining intermittently or it's a lot warmer than it looked.
00:49:45.180And so bundling up and getting outside, I think, can help us recognize when our expectations are wrong about how it's going to feel to go out.
00:49:57.900And then also, I mean, even the Nordics, they even get outside when it's dark.
00:50:02.000They don't even let the darkness get them down.
00:50:04.620Like, they'll go out when it's, you know, pitch, almost pitch black.
00:50:08.780And they're having, like, kids are having a great time.
00:50:11.060Like, they're not letting that get in the way of them having a good time outside.
00:50:14.380Yeah, I mean, if you live somewhere where the sun doesn't rise for two months each winter, you have to.
00:50:18.420You put on a reflective vest for safety and you strap on a headlamp and you get out there.
00:50:23.240And, you know, I think when we look at winter and these excursions with a sense of sort of curiosity, there's a lot to discover.
00:50:30.960That your neighborhood looks different in the dark and you can see how the shadows fall from the streetlights or the light of the moon reflects off snow if you live somewhere snowy.
00:50:41.740Or, you know, how things, how your other senses are a little bit heightened when things are dark.
00:50:47.980And, you know, as long as you're somewhere where it's safe to be out in the darkness, that it can be a really peaceful feeling to go out on an excursion and go for sort of an evening walk under the streetlights or under the city lights and see what feels different.
00:51:06.320Another thing you explore is how cultures around the world that live in cold areas use heat and cold contrast to make winter more invigorating.
00:51:23.700In Iceland and Japan, which are sort of rich in geothermal waters, it's going to, you know, public baths or public pools that are really hot.
00:51:33.120And so I think, you know, when it is cold all the time, you do want to have things that feel warm and you do want to have a way to warm up.
00:51:42.140And so if you have access to a sauna, there's a lot of psychological and physiological health benefits of time spent in the sauna.
00:51:51.540It's basically the equivalent of a cardiovascular workout.
00:51:54.840So regular sauna use over your lifetime protects against things like heart attack and heart disease and stroke.
00:52:02.800And it also, you know, feels really good and feels really nice.
00:52:06.400If you don't have access to a sauna, you know, taking hot baths, hot water immersion provides similar benefits.
00:52:13.240But also in these places, I see a lot of people taking advantage of the cold and doing cold plunging and cold water swimming.
00:52:23.520And that was something that I wasn't planning to include in the book.
00:52:28.160I thought it was like too niche and too hardcore and too biohacking.
00:52:32.420But then in multiple places throughout Scandinavia, I talked to multiple people who said that their number one thing that helps them feel good in the winter is doing cold plunging and doing cold water swimming for, you know, once or twice a week for a few seconds or a few minutes.
00:52:50.760And I tried it myself and, you know, I can't believe to say that I am now actually a cold water swimmer myself.
00:52:58.820It's something I've continued doing here in Amsterdam.
00:53:02.280And there's a lot of health benefits for that as well.
00:53:05.220But it also is really an invigoration to the system.
00:53:09.280And both of these things, sort of cold therapy and hot therapy, can help our bodies heat themselves more effectively.
00:53:16.660And so the more time you expose yourself to the cold over time, the more you get used to it, right?
00:53:22.640It's like that first chilly day in the fall feels so much colder than a day that's the same temperature in the spring.
00:53:30.780So, you know, these practices that help us heat up and cool down actually help make all of the winter feel more pleasurable and enjoyable.
00:54:27.860Something that we mentioned earlier, one of our natural inclinations as it gets colder and darker is we just want to spend more time by ourselves and not be as social.
00:54:39.140And I think one of the takeaways is that that's normal.
00:54:41.380Like there's nothing wrong with you if you want to, you know, spend a Friday night watching a movie instead of going out.
00:54:46.800But socializing is still a big spirit lifter.
00:54:50.140And something you found is that in a lot of these cultures, when they have long, hard winters, they got some practices to inject a little bit more sociality into the season.
00:55:03.380So a lot of these cultures have communal gatherings that are an integral part of enjoying and appreciating the winter.
00:55:13.720So I actually heard this about a cafe in Fairbanks, Alaska, that in the winter, the community board is full of activities and gatherings and meetups.
00:55:26.140And in the summer, it's actually totally empty because everybody is out enjoying the sun and hiking and doing things.
00:55:32.140But I think this idea of coming together in the winter is really valuable.
00:55:37.700It's both a pastime, you know, something that fills the long nights and is something that, you know, we know is a mood booster for a lot of people.
00:55:51.940So when we're feeling down, you have those sources of social support.
00:55:55.760And so this was something I experienced on the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, which are islands off the coast of Scotland, where they talk about Cayley culture.
00:56:07.060And so Cayley is this word for this kind of community gathering.
00:56:10.480So a big ritual dinner or, you know, having friends over and drinking whiskey and listening to music and sitting around by the fire.
00:56:19.600And I think, you know, winter is really about trying to find the right balance, right?
00:56:26.660You want to let yourself slow down, but you also want to motivate yourself to get outside.
00:56:30.900You want to embrace it as a season for restorative alone time, but also acknowledge that you might need socialization.
00:56:39.900And so for me, it's really a lot about thinking about how do I want to socialize in the winter?
00:56:46.260So maybe that's having a few people over for a dinner party or a movie night rather than sort of like a big, you know, raucous barbecue beach day.
00:56:58.140Or maybe it's about connecting with friends individually in a slowed down way.
00:57:04.340Or maybe it's about inviting people over to do a silent hang where you, you know, read your book separately, but you're in the same room together.
00:57:13.900And so I think, you know, we can take a cue from these cultures where community is a really important part of getting through the winter and say, okay, what kind of socialization do I need or would feel really good to me at this time of year?
00:57:28.900Yeah, I guess in Nordic countries, like film festivals, that's a big, big thing for them.
00:57:34.600And we have that kind of in the United States too, in Park City, Utah, there's a like Sundance, like there's a big film festival there.
00:57:41.980And I think it happens during the winter.
00:57:43.900Yeah, I think a lot, you know, winter is a chance to have these kinds of indoor community gatherings and events that maybe would be poorly attended at other times of year.
00:57:55.640So I also heard about this book festival on the Isle of Lewis that was originally scheduled for the end of August, which is when the Edinburgh Book Festival happens.
00:58:05.880And so they thought, oh yeah, people will come from Edinburgh, they'll do that book festival, and then they'll come to our book festival.
00:58:10.500But not only did people not materialize, the locals didn't want to go to a book festival, like at the end of the summer during the last, you know, long days.
00:58:20.240And so they moved it to the end of October, beginning of November, where it's really flourished, where at that time of year, when it's starting to get really dark out, people want something to do.
00:58:33.180And this was something I also experienced living in Trumso, as they have a big international film festival towards the middle end of January, and people really look forward to it.
00:58:43.680It gives people something to do at that time of year, you know, after the holidays are over, when people maybe need a reason to go out and need something to do to fill the long nights.
00:58:55.940And it sort of makes that time of year celebratory.
00:58:59.320So I see now a lot of winter festivals.
00:59:02.000There's one in Minneapolis and St. Paul, Minnesota, called the Great Northern that takes place at the end of January.
00:59:08.360A lot of these winter-themed festivals are popping up sort of at the end of January, beginning of February, which I think is when a lot of people experience a dip.
00:59:22.160You're like, okay, what am I going to do with myself now?
00:59:24.480And it's a great chance to sort of get out in your community, go to a film festival, go to a winter festival, or go to a museum, or see more movies, or, you know, do more of these things that are really cozy winter activities that lend themselves to, you know, it being dark and cold out.
00:59:43.420Well, Carrie, this has been a great conversation.
00:59:44.980Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:59:47.740You can go to my website, CarrieLebowitz.com.
00:59:50.660The book is How to Winter, available wherever books are sold.
00:59:54.500I also have a substack newsletter called Wintry Mix that you can sign up for, where I send out sort of winter tips and practices throughout the season that you can try if you want even more than what the book offers.
01:00:20.260She's the author of the book, How to Winter.
01:00:21.780It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
01:00:24.380You can find more information about her work at her website, CarrieLebowitz.com.
01:00:27.520While you're there, sign up for her newsletter, Wintry Mix, which I think is a great name for her newsletter, where she shares research on how to make winter more enjoyable.
01:00:34.900Also, check out her show notes at awim.is slash howtowinter.
01:00:37.680We find links to resources, and we delve deeper into this topic.
01:00:39.960Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.
01:00:50.200Make sure to check out our website at artofmanlies.com, where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything you'd think of.
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